Don't go OVERBOARD w this No Limit Hold'em Concept!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ต.ค. 2024
- In this hand the caller faces a strange line from his opponent which leads to an interesting river decision. He and Bart talk through the situation.
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What is the minimum holding that you are betting for value here on the river if you are the Hero when checked to?
I think JJ. It unblocks the T, so can get calls from stuff like AT/KT/QT/etc. I guess that makes TT more likely, but if they're playing TT like this, they've earned my river value bet (and probably lost a lot of value by playing it so weird). Edit: Though I gotta say, villain's line is so sus I feel like checking back even some overpairs. Donk75%/call, x/min-raise, x? wtf?
JJ+. Maybe A10. It seems odd but my first guess on players hand was a passive JJ. More likely they donk flop with JJ over A10. I also see that often where certain players don’t want to 3bet with JJ as it’s tough to play OOP post flop. I also wouldn’t be too surprised if villain had A2 and was going for double check raise - as weird as that is.
So when they min raise turn I think possible they have JJ, A2 or maybe A10 or J10. Seems unlikely they have the draws or under pairs after turn action. So then river is a clear check against those hands.
JJ, When I saw this, I was yelling at the screen “HE HAS JACKS! HE HAS JACKS!!”
At 5/5 these OMC types play JJ in a VERY specific way. They never re-raise pre. They want to know for sure that they’ll have an overpair on the flop before they start playing it like an overpair.
In fact I would even say that maybe half his range by the river is literally JJ
OMCs might raise JJ but they hardly ever 3B it (or anything else for that matter). Between the OMC, the donk lead, and the check raise, you have to check back on the river. No OMC plays a hand you beat like this
ETA: OMC cr on turn always has top pair beat. I like a fold to the cr against an OMC. AND it’s a min cr. How many ways can the OMC say KT is no good?
I think I'm just squinting my eyes, shaking my head and checking it back here with everything other than boats, AA KK and QQ. I really felt like the villain had exactly JJ here. I think the caller was on target with his over pair read on the flop. The turn min click check raise just screamed "I have a big hand but don't know where I'm at!" Against smart players I've seen lines like this with super nutted hands. But usually it's an uncertain player trying to navigate what he thinks is a dicey situation from out of position.
This feels like a classic example of a caller thinking “What’s this stupid fish doing donking into me? Doesn’t he know I have a range advantage?! Well I’ll show him…”
I’ve certainly done it myself. But the point is, either they don’t know you have a range advantage or they don’t care.
If villain donked for $10 into $60 then maybe that’s just a clueless fish trying to “see where they’re at”. But when it’s $45 into $60 they’re telling you they’ve got a decent hand. The way to exploit that is to fold when you have nothing and raise when you’ve got a big hand, not to try and bluff them off it.
no hesitation, I fold on flop
yes and he donks into two players,if you do need to do some heroic move do it with better than KTs
I've been trying to work on my own mental. I see this in myself, a lot of callers, just a lot of players. Of course we're smarter than the others. Doesn't mean we have the best hand.
I mean, is cold calling from the SB always wrong? Maybe this SB is playing 4D chess.
Thanks a little tongue in cheek, but seriously, why bet the river?
Sometimes I set people up with a little donk bet
This feels like one of those spots were something weird happens and I just want to see the showdown. Bart was so close with AT. Truly bizarre line by villain.
I’ve actually seen this move here and there at live lower stakes. They’ll flat an open with JJ or QQ and then when the board is all undercards they donk lead big into the PFR. It actually sometimes works since you don’t think they have those sort of hands in their range
I used to see a player online at nl100 that would do someithing similar with a sb limp range that was super strong with 66-QQ sometimes and AJo Aqo. He would then have a super high check raise on the flop. I think it was a decent exploit because I used to think sb calls were a fish play. I think it worked really well until I had 1k hands on him. It is essentially a disguised 3 bet. I only found it out because I wanted to see how I was losing to the guy by looking at PT4.
I think the same thing happened in this hand where hero did not respect a good sb limp strategy. Now whenever I see a sb limp I get super cautious and don't always catergorize them as a fish.
Pocket jacks were definitely in the range after the min click. One of the first holdings I thought of. Only real mistake was the river bet, and it wasn’t that bad of a mistake. This hand is just weird, not sure what else it says.
main mistake was the flop raise
One added bit of incentive to checking back river is the value of seeing wtf villain took this line with. Of course, still get to see that when we lose, but if KT is good and villain folds to a river bet, we've actually lost value. I think this is an often overlooked nuance. There's the immediate $EV of a play, and then there's the informational EV of a play. On the other hand, we also conceal information about what we took this line with, so you can decide whether that's a net positive, negative, or a wash.
I can dig it
The fact a check back reveals the players hand makes it even more +ev early in a session. Knowing someone won’t 3! JJ is huge.
@@Dexerion @Dexerion Agreed. If you're leaving soon and don't expect to play with this player again, there's not much value in the information. But if you're just getting started and/or this is a potential regular in a game you might play often, lots of value in that info.
When I used to play a lot of Heads Up Limit Holdem, I'd play extra showdownbound early on in the session to acquire information as fast as possible (and also to discourage them from bluffing so I could make some folds later and make thinner bluffs and value bets).
This only applies if you're not a good post flop player. The information is worthless on such a small sample, and if you pay attention to the game even when you're not in the hand you can get all this info for free.
@@jakecooper5855 That seems backwards to me. If you are not a good (post flop) player, you're less likely to understand how to integrate bits of information into your decision making process. And the smaller the sample of hands you have to draw from, the more value there is in seeing actual showdowns. The fact that villain took a super weird line is useful information, but which hand was used for this line is more useful. Less-so because it tells us something about what a similarly weird line might mean in the future, and more so because it tells us about which sorts of hands we can discount from the normal-line ranges in the future. (Not eliminate those hands from those ranges, obv, but discount them. For instance, if we RFI BTN later and get 3-bet, it doesn't mean this player can't have JJ, but it does imply they're less likely to hold JJ when they do 3-bet.)
...Or you could fold on the flop because you're at the bottom of your range with no hand, no draw and no plan.
Exactly,he pissed away a lot cos he wasnt the only one playing strange
Before I knew what he had I guessed A2 or JJ. JJ makes perfect sense if you figure SB simply wanted to disguise his hand and see the flop before he started firing $ into it.
Turn min c/r vs unknown live player usually is a super strong line... this was like the standard 'nuts' line that limit players used to take when migrating over to NLHE due to usage in limit games.
I want a hear a take from both sides like from a hero calling in then from the villian calling in and seeing how to play it best from both sides
i think its actually a pretty neat line with jacks.
I've started leading some here in the SB's spot. It's sort of like a squeeze donk, where everyone else has to act before they know what the PFR wants to do. SB should have six very nutty combos (A2s/22/33), some smaller overpairs 44-99 (36 combos), and some draws like A5s/A4s/54s. Some PFRs will behave very straightforwardly against this line, and others (like the caller)... not so much. :) I think Bart and the caller are correct that most players will have a castrated range here (no nuts), but they should be uncapped if they've thought this line through. (Flop bet size is a little sus tho.)
I guess if you're gonna flat JJ and get a multiway pot, leading out here some might not be the worst. It's multi-way, so expecting an auto c-bet from BTN might be a big assumption. On this board, though, BTN probably does c-bet 100%, so I like c/r better w/JJ.
@@g.gardner3891 Gotta say, I did not see JJ coming. But some people even flat QQ in spots like this, which is hella weird, but a thing that actually happens.
This flop favors the button. You should have a wide opening range on the button. That includes all Ax unsuited hands( and even K2 and Q2 suited), and all pocket pairs. This is why sb should be 3betting a premium like JJ preflop 100%. Hero also has all the big pairs and by calling sb shouldn't. SB should only have 22-99 and only a few suited Ax wheel hands (some 3bet bluffing preflop.) BB should have more of a defending range and have flops that favor it's range.
The villain's line was ridiculous. Donk lead then calls a raise then min check raise turn. There is like zero chance hero is ahead. SB strikes me as the type who makes very few bluffs if any (call a BTN open with JJ.) I've never seen a min check raise bluff. Even if he was aggressive there is no draw to bluff with.
SB donks for $45.
Fold...next hand.
Yeah why do we need to go nuts here? I’ll raise donk bets with air sometimes if I feel the player is just clueless and doing it to “see where they’re at” or they’re doing it every hand but we’ve not been given any information to that effect by caller.
Can’t see any reason not to respect their 3/4 pot bet.
10000000%
Exactly.
13:48 that's your turn fold right there. I was surprised Bart glossed over this observation of the villain. Caller had a gut feeling based on experience and observation and ignored it. You're never good here with KT against that opponent.
Exactly my thoughts too, as soon as we hear the description of the villain this becomes almost an auto fold
@@calebrandal8915 the flop becomes an auto-fold based on the description of the guy as an OMC.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj haha i thought "then why are you raising flop with nothing then?Just fold"
Stopped at 14:30. I check back the River. You have a half-sized pot left. If you bet smaller and foe shoves, you are pretty much pot committed to call. But what will call you that you beat? The donk bet could easily be 55-99, but he turn min-checkraise screams 33 or a 2, or AcTc, AsTs. I don't see 99 calling your your river bet. No history means it's hard for foe to think you are bluffing as well. You have Top pair + here way more often than foe, and you could have A2s as well. 55-99 just isn't a hand that is good here enough to call, unless they know you will bluff this spot.
I'd take note of how foe plays and adjust on later hands, but I think checking is the most EV+ in this hand.
It would be cool to hear a whole episode about chopping. Everyone always says you should chop and at the table if you don't chop you're considered the a******. But if you think you're better than the person you're direct left or your direct right isn't it better to try to play the hand?
given the high rakes in these lower limit games, you should probably just be chopping 100%. so basically 1/2, 1/3, 2/3, 2/5 in any raked cardroom or casino. youd have to be way, way better than your opponents to mathematically justify playing it out. even moreso bc a lot of these rooms will take an addition $1-$2 out of the pot for their promotions once it gets to the flop.
in like timed games or club games (where you pay by the hour or a fee to play) or at higher stakes (where the rake is a much smaller percentage of the pot), then by all means play it out every time. youre going to be better than your opponents on average and youll get some very important blind v blind reps.
also, as far as being considered an asshole, ive never seen any problem if a person never chops. if you dont want to chop just tell your opponent that you never chop. that pretty much wont ever be an issue. the real problems come when a player is not consistent (ie, not chopping when they have strong pf hands or only when theyre the ones in the bb).
Omc flats pre, leads his over pair and min clicks turn bet that reps a 10. Checks the river to induce or because he’s not 100 about his JJ. This is actually pretty standard low stakes omc play. The min click is always strong value. Not sure why pros get confused by it still.
I hate flop raise. I hate river bet. I fold flop a lot with nothing going on for our hand, there's so many better spots to bluff than this.
nailed it
Yeah I’m just folding flop vs that sizing. If the guy’s just donking with complete air into two opponents then good luck to him.
Would have been a 20 sec video and call. Lol but I agree
Are you kidding?!? Hero is already in for $20. Gonna pump all 3 streets
If people are going to trip out so hard and spaz like this, I'm gonna start playing JJ like this from the SB.
This caller and their game are crippled by absorbing too much 'GTO' theory and lacking any feel for the game. He's not aware of it, and Bart ignores it. To say the SB was capped at 44-99 on the flop because of the bet, because that's what some solver says, is what effected the entire outcome of the hand. Then he ignores completely that he was wrong in this thinking, and learns nothing from it.
44-99 would'nt make sense on the turn. Would he min check-raise a turn that is an overcard to his pair? Why exactely? in the case of the JJ he was protecting his hand from an overcard on the river. Not that I agree, but that was what he was doing. The same reasoning for donk betting the flop.
lol nm i didnt realize this was a 3-way pot :/
Yea Palomar got shut down for laundering, sports betting and prostitution. Lucky Lady is another local card room that got shut down too. All we have left in SD is Seven Mile (old Village Club) and Oceans 11 in Oceanside. Plus Sycuan and Jamul are the Indian casinos, but pretty much only have up to 2/5.
Lol am I the only one wishing he got stacked for overplaying his hand on the flop
Watching this not to river yet. Literally seen someone play queens exactly like this. Also fives and A3s exactly like this, trying to see where they’re at on turn/keep you from betting big on river
I haven’t finished watching the video but I feel like on the Turn he has a lot of ATs or very weirdly/nitty played jacks
hero stayed in long enough to become the villain
I keep finding in all these types of videos that everyone just dismisses big pairs/AK as they would have been 3! pre. I must play in way worse games than, because I know tons of guys that are not 3 betting anything but aces, or the 3 bet is 10x size with jacks/tens to just end it there. Jacks is 100% in this guy's range. Wouldn't be shocked to see even trappy kings sometimes.
Check back the river.
In the movie Hell or High Water they launder money using a similar method. Awesome movie! 👍
Haha on turn I said I’ve seen a hand like queens play like this both out of bb and sb. Flat pre flop. Donk call flop or check call then donk turn. Crazy. So rare like 1 in 10,000 hands, if that, but now I’ve seen it a couple times so I’m aware of it but Can’t let it really affect your decisions
I don’t hate the villains play. It’s weird but I get it. Seems like a clear check back though. Not much better folds and not much worse calls.
So is this a viable way to play JJs sometimes from the small blind? What flaws are there to exploit this line?
Paused on the turn because this already feels like JJ specifically. QQ donk leads smaller, 99 doesn’t play turn aggressively, and TT is the second most likely villain hand IMO. Flop action makes me think JJ even more after seeing how many times people use large flop sizing to protect their pair from turn and river over-cards. Every now and then this is a villain fish wheel draw but I’m convinced villain has some sort of pair with JJ/TT being my best guess
Regardless of what villain has though, this has to be a river check after all this aggression. It’s either a better hand or a bluff right? So what kinda thin value are we going after?!?
Old Man Coffee type image. representing his preflop premium pocket pair postflop feeling it’s a safe bpard to put money with TT JJ QQ type hands. Really in these spots you need to know your opponent. Even initial stereotypes are ok to go on with OMC if you don’t know enough about his play.
anyone else fold flop?
Everyone. (Except H and bart).
Yep, unless SB is a complete maniac.
It's an easy fold on Turn x/r.
.
5-5 SB (JJ) calls PFR?
I'm looking at the CLP to become a member. I do have some questions about it. What's the best way to contact you?
When bad players min check raise you on the turn, usually they have a really strong hand.
Sounds like a middling pair 77 or 88 trying to protect his equity … on the turn raise
I knew it was pocket Jacks. It just felt so Jacky; like they had to have an overpair at least
Right on! You should go pro.
@@pot_kivach160 I AM PRO ALREADY
Used to be village club. Yes casinos gut you on the rake in Ca
Hey, Bart from the vil side if he bet $475. Reckon caller will shove or just call?
Definitely a self-own with the river bet. Just take the showdown.
There is no correct way to play JJ. :)
I’m checking back river ALOT
check back.
Barts acting skills are so good when he acts like he is doing the analysis in real time. I love this channel tho I've learned so much
huh? I am doing the analysis in real tme
The reason why SB checked on river instead of betting fof a thin value is because SB can't hand read.SB was afraid Hero made a possible strai8on the river. It is a fear of overthinking when the player doesn't know how to hand read. I put SB on QQ or JJ when he min raise. Again SB is afraid that Hero has AA or KK so he man raise to find out.
Half way through the hand I thought it could be QQ or JJ that was too scared to 3!
Villain played this very tricky, but it's still hero's fault. The true reason he did not fold on the flop is that he was offended that 1st to act donked into him. KT is a trivial muck here.
Jacks and Queens are all donk betting here bc player is afraid getting out drawn. Mediocre players do this all the time. They are never playing over the course of all their hands they’re playing this individual spot. And they just want to win. And I 10s are a real possibility and I feel like if he had six through nines he would’ve bet even more . Definitely checking back not going for thin value here. Especially with an unknown guy.
a2 all day
Chalk this up to not trying to bluff the OMC.
Pocket jacks is only hand
Why couldn’t he have 33 turn ?
This is why I am no good; I would fold to the donk lead after the flop. Because, I have garbage.
What happend to Gal
He was running slot machines from his house and got busted
@@derrsonn is he still in the feds? If he got busted then hes in MDC LA (METROPOLITAN FEDERAL DETENTION CENTER LOS ANGELES). I read the article. Why would he talk on his own cell phone? Use a burner if youre doing illegal shit. Free Gal
It is a good room but when I went there 2 yrears ago they had a lot of roaches. Roaches were walking on the table. They have these goofy machines in the table and there is all kinds of food and trash under the table. Good games. I havent been back. I hate roaches
Jiggities
JJ missed so much value . He should have bet $300 - $400 . The hero should have checked back there because he could have A T . 88, 77, 99, T J all fold
terrible river bet
On the flop, "Hero says, when he donks here, I feel like his range is capped and this is pocket pairs of 4s thru 9s, all day." That's just not the case. He can have all combos of A2 suited and K2 suited, pocket 3s and pocket 2. Capped means capped. This guy is not capped. You raised from the button so you have a wide range. While he really should raise off JJ here, we all know that many weak players don't, so with no reads, you shouldn't cap his range. He just donked to take the betting lead. And he played the hero like a fiddle because of a faulty assumption.
Thats the problem with a lot pf poker analysis,its analysed with the assumption that V plays a decent strategy,which is actually wrong here as V was described as OMC
lol nm i didnt realize this was a 3-way pot :/
I guess the question is, would someone donk with A2s/K2s or a boat? I feel they’d normally get checked to the PFR, risking the check through because they feel they’re so far ahead.
Whereas mid pocket pairs are much more vulnerable. 77 has a lot of bad turn cards to worry about.
But the think is, even if V has 77 why are we raising flop to try and get him to fold? Just seems unnecessary.
Gold flop.
This guy is annoying...why call in, if you're gonna cut Bart off every time he tries to say something? Good players don't go to the bathroom and dance when they beat someone they were supposed to be at.
Dumb example