I Was Wrong About These Sabers!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2023
- 18th & 19th century military sabers? Meh... is what I used to say. These reproductions are quickly changing my mind. The degree of accuracy stands apart from so much cheap stuff on the market!
Also another reminder of how much proper blade shape matters... They have substantial distal tapers, and that makes a world of difference in how they handle. You could actually fence with a saber like this, and not be completely overwhelmed by a more nimble weapon.
1796 light cavalry saber by LK Chen
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1860 light cavalry saber by LK Chen
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Test & review of the Kilij I'm showing:
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#skallagrim #sword #history - บันเทิง
Skal, in all honesty, this "new you" that you "practice" in your videos for a while now is just awesome to watch. You are so much more open to just learn and try things out in the world of swords instead of leaning on past biases, it´s just a pleassure to watch..
What
sigh*....inhale deeply*........... SKAL! IN ALL HONESTY! THIS NEW YOU THAT YOU.. jk@@Imperial__Owl
I'm not sure it's a "new him" thing. I've been watching him for something like 8 years now and he's been continually learning the entire time. The Skall of Theseus, you can call him, I guess xD
Huh? When was the last time Skall ever leaned into a bias? He has preferences obviously.
I fully agree, though I'd say that this is more of a return to form for him. I actually stopped watching his content about 5 years ago and only recently returned and found out how good his current stuff is.
As of the beginning of this year, Windlass also makes a historically accurate rendition of the 1796. The distal taper on them is now quite extreme, and very nice!
Easton’s tour of the factory really convinced me that they’re taking things seriously. He seems quite pleased with the improvements they’ve made to production and design.
Wait... I can trust windlass now!?
@@Cretaal Well, they certainly seem to be much improved, at least for the ones that Matt Easton consulted on. But I have heard some issues with quality control. Some folks have been getting great items and some have been not as great. Maybe in time they'll get more reliable? Still, for the price it's hard to beat.
I got a 2021 reissue Windlass Munich sword, and unlike what's stated in most of the reviews online, it now has linear distal taper from 5mm at the ricasso to 2.5mm at an inch before the tip, AND it came factory sharpened. Weight and balance are still off because of the heavy pommel, but eventually I found a good replacement pommel that makes me hear a choir of angels sing whenever I pick up the sword. Anyway, my point is that Windlass seems to have been upping their game. 👍
@@docnightfall, Oh, they definitely have!
Cavalry sabers were often chosen by infantry officers as their sidearm and used on foot so this definitely still applies. Glad to see there's some good saber reproductions now!
Richard Sharp did at least
@@wpjohn91No, Richard Sharpe famously uses a 1796 Heavy Cavalry sword, a longer and heavier straight blade, _very_ different from the 1796 Light Cavalry saber. The books often mention that it's kind of awkward for fighting on foot. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_1796_heavy_cavalry_sword
My apologiese for conflating the cavalry sword with the cavalry sabre
@@wpjohn91Well, the real meaningful difference between them is heavy vs. light cavalry... but regardless, frankly, blame it on John le Marchant. :)
I absolutely LOVE 18th and 19th century sabers. I always thought that in a SHTF situation, sabers would probably have the most fighting utility due to the hand protection. They were literally the last swords to have widespread use in the age of gunpowder weapons for good reason.
They had much less hand protection than many Renaissance swords though (various baskethilts, dussacks, rapiers, etc).
Nice video! In fairness about the cavalry vs infantry thing the gap between what is a "cavalry saber" and what is an "infantry saber" is at best blurry and we know cavalry sabers did see use on foot too whether because the cavalry man simply lost his horse, dismounted, or an infantry officer preferred the cavalry saber over the infantry regulation model as officers did have some freedom to choose. You can get heavier or longer infantry sabers than certain cavalry sabers and they vary considerably. The Austrian 1858 cavalry saber for instance (my favourite saber) is a beast of a saber at 1.1 kilos with a fuller on one side only (which is a bit weird!) but only has a 33 inch blade which isn't particularly long as far as sabers go but isn't short either. I personally prefer to fence with cavalry sabers because I am a bit tall and do not mind the extra weight they tend to have.
Sword is sword
In France you can really tell the difference between cavalry sabers and infantry sabers, especially after the Empire era. There is a massive massive gap in maniability and power between the 1822 light cavalry saber (92cm blade), and the 1821 infantry officer saber (76cm blade). The 1822 LCS wasn't even the heaviest cavalry saber, the line cavalry 1822 saber had a 98cm long blade, and it was even more massive. Even the 1845 infantry officer saber which was beefier than the 1821 is no match for the 1822 LCS (which the US copied as the M1840 "wrist breaker"). There was less difference between arms in British service, and possibly in other countries too, but that's not to be generalized.
Many people have tried to tell me that wearing a calvary saber on your back is impossible. If I was a human needing to fight on foot I would need to not worry about tripping over my own scabbard, so I would need a shorter sword. However, if I was on horseback I would need to be able to reach down and strike my enemies after I've used my horse pistol and lance. So the blade would have to be longer.
Also, dragoons were a thing, and they also used these.
The gap used to be bigger. Spanish cavalry sword is literally a giant rapier because some people still wear measurable armor at the time. Sword shrunk as people ditch armor. And we didn't took body armor seriously again until early cold war. (even in WWI and WWII anti-shrapnel armors are sporadic, with helmet being priority)
I like this look. You should wield sabers more often.
dual wield sabers more often! :D
Fun fact: Bowie knife fighting was inspired by infantry/Calvary saber fighting during antebellum America
I'm Polish so most historical movies I watched as a kid was saber propaganda :p
Każdy polak jest szablofilem.
As a Hungarian I had the same experience. And there's no argument that can convince that the saber isn't the best sword in the world.
@@HD-mp6yyyou guys have a point culture must play A Part, as someone growing up in America, it's very much longsword or Katana for me😊
The technical terms you are using are quite convincing. I'll buy twelve of them !
yeah...uh...where can i buy stock in that?
that's enough for a small Cavalry Unit!
I once had the opportunity to ride a course of saber targets with a friend's original 1860 US Cavalry saber and I was amazed at how much better it handled than any reproduction I'd ever used. Unfortunately, originals have remained out of my price range. I may check out the Chen reproduction.
Matt Easton: *smiles and nods in approval*
True story.
@@scholagladiatoria I enjoy the fact you actually responded to him.
I mean, in wartime, shoddy swords are also a plenty lol.
I talked about this with some Japanese friends and many WWII guntou were incredibly shite.
yeah, it makes sense. if every grenedier gets a small sword, and officers get a full Saber, that's a lot of swords... on top of all of the bayonets and gun barrels.
all of a sudden quality gets shoved aside. it's the same with firearms in war. if you look at the German rifles from the beginning of ww2, and the rifles to the middle and end its very apparent.
Yep, war is a harsh mistress and the need to have someone armed takes precedence over quality issues.
Yeah also US civil war sabers had a serious issue. As they were delivered dull. The soldiers were expected to sharpen them themselves in the field. The issue tho most had no idea how and didn't even have the tools needed to do it themselves. So most went into battle with dull sabers. How top Brass thought that was a good idea we will never know.
Classic survivorship bias, the best swords survived in good condition, the bad ones didn't survive much at all, and then we think most of them must have been good quality.
@@Ren-lx8wv "how top brass thought that was a good idea we never know". Oh we do know, they somehow expect both the best and worst of the soldiers in the stupid way. Remember they ship out M16 to Vietnam without cleaning tools because the gun is advertised as self-cleaning? Also during the civil war they don't want semi automatics because they don't trust the soldiers not to waste ammo...
My old hema teacher hated sabres.
I love them.
This and scheduling is why we split.
I think Matt Easton also did a review on the Windlass version of the 1796 saber. Apparently, it is also pretty good with historical accuracy.
With 18th-19th century swords, my aesthetic preference is the spadroon (not 1796). They can handle a lot like a sidesword, but w/out the finger rings (in fact if you cut the quillons off a Meyer rapier, it is basically a spadroon).
Hey, better late than never Skall! =) I just got my hands on the LK1860 and I can tell you it's by FAR the most accurate version of the sword for any offering's off the shelf on the market. Glad that these are giving you a good experience in the world of Military Sabres. I'll try to do a video on Kilij in the not too distant future and I'll tag you once it's up.
I really enjoy when you put up these types of videos. I like seeing your thought processes, and how you examine (and, in this case, re-examine) different blades and beliefs, and present a coherent understanding of how useful (or not) these things are. Most of us nowadays have never seen more than a pocket knife or box cutter, despite blades of many kinds being an integral part of humanity for millennia.
I used to own the Cold Steel 1796 - it was clunky as hell, but the most egregious error was that it had a threaded pommel nut. A little test cutting and that would loosen up - no idea why they couldn’t just peen the pommel, especially since they took the time to rivet through the langets on the handle.
Can’t wait to get either the LK Chen or the new Windlass model.
Huh. That’s interesting. My cold steel 1796 I had a while ago had a completely fixed build.
Nothing ever got loose, but yeah. Clunky as hell. But it would work perfectly fine as a cavalry saber in a pinch.
I think the cold steel 1796 evolved quite a bit over the years. Mine (2021) never had any problem with the threaded pommel. Early ones didnt have distal taper. But mine did, 8mm to 4mm weighing 990g. Good but not enough. Still very tip heavy. But i can work with that. I reprofiled the distal taper to 8mm at base, 2.5mm near the tip, now 860g. Huge improvement in handling.
That wasn't an error, it's just a construction choice. It wouldn't matter if it got loose though because they had another nut on the tang hidden under the backstrap. It may have been made that way to make it easy to modify- which it is as long as you can remove the rivet through the grip.😅
The sword wasn't that "clunky" but certainly not as nice to hold as an original. They really needed a lot more material removed from the foible!
THAT is the most obvious error- that section should be much thinner and fatter.
@@robbiej3642That's very thick for the foible. 4mm? 990g is a good weight though, I have an original that weighs about that and a German version which is heavier.
@@Theduckwebcomics Interesting - in fairness, I never disassembled it, so I didn’t know there was another nut. It rattled and I didn’t feel confident in the construction.
There was a lot of material I felt could be removed from the blade, hence why it felt “clunky” to me. I’ve also never handled an original, so maybe it wasn’t as far off as I thought.
I remember, around 7-8 years ago, when I started watching sword & HEMA videos, I was only interested (aesthetically) in medieval bastard & two-handed swords. Then I found Scholagladiatoria. My preference was still the same for another year or two & then, one day, it clicked. He brought out an 1845 pattern blade with a scinde irregular cavalry hilt & that was it. I’ve been a saber guy ever since🤣
Thank you, Matt Easton, for broadening my horizons🫡
Good to hear 🙂
Very nice! I learnd a lot of proper strikes with sabers (and swords as a whole) in a video made “just” to say you’ve changed your mind about modern sabers. It’s just wonderful when we simply do whatever we feel like doing. Very nice content bro, keep at it!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sadly this market of the sword industry is plagued with many terrible replicas, much like the Katana market. But they must have been effective to have been used for 200 years in the militaries of Europe and America.
No they weren't used for 200 years. They have been used for at least 1200 years on the Eurasian Steppe.
@@HD-mp6yyso you are actually saying they were correct but similar blades were also used for a far longer period on the Eurasian steppe. I know math is hard but 200 fits quite nicely into 1200 and they specified in European and American armies
@@nickbob2003 Europe doesn't end at the Iron Curtain. By the 15th century Sabers were widespread in Hungary, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Russia and the Ottoman Empire. Sabers have been in use in the Western portion of the Eurasian Steppe since the 8th century.
@@HD-mp6yy true but the context of this video are the iconic 18th to 20th century cavalry and officer saber replicas. Not renaissance or medieval blades, as skall said. So that is what I was meaning by 200 years (naval swords, Napoleonic to ww1 swords)
Great video! Also love seeing you coming back into shape! Great job! Keep it up!
For what it's worth this style of video works really really well for you. The presentation is very honest and engaging, like a chat with a friend or a hangout.
Great video Skall, it is always great to see an expert being open to new evidence and ideas, it makes you even more trustworthy
Man i love your TH-cam evolution, been following for years
you have an awesome personality, love your new stuff tbh
Saw comments like this, love to see u in this shape and with this interest to the subject, any more and all will be happy 🥹
Skull man, it was good to see that little mischievous look of enjoyment in your eye when you were telling how good the distal taper made the handling! I loved it! I hope you are feeling as good as you are looking bro! You seem like you’re efforts are paying off both physically @ emotionally buddy! Keep it up, because it’s good to see you so enthusiastic about sharing your knowledge with sword nerds like me! Thanks for everything bro! Best wishes to you and your family. ✌️🇺🇸
I can't wait to see the test cuts. It's awesome that LK chen expanded their line-up.
I love sabers because of the punching aspect for close range. I bought one from Kult of Athena a while back and it's still my favorite (that's for the advice as to which to buy from, btw!)
As a sabre enthusiast, I'm glad to see you're more open to them :)
Those where really nice sabers, looking forward to the test cut video.
I absolutely ADORE cavalry sabres, and i'm totally going to get that 1790 model at some point. I've never owned a sword before, but I think soon might be a good time to start.
Great job, Eagle Eyes! Looking forward to seeing more in the future
One of my favorite sword types to spar with! Love your work, and presentation.
This provides good reason for being open minded about historical weapons.
Even if you've had bad experiences with a particular weapon, there's always the logic that if people used them back in the day (When they were often a literal life or death factor) there's probably something to them.
It's just a matter of finding a reproduction that is accurate enough to convey how useful they were.
On the flip side, for people who want to make historical weapons, it highlights that putting in the research to find out exactly what the weapons were like can provide a far superior product.
Skall, I gotta say coming back to your channel after a few years is really fascinating. I liked your old videos, but I think I just burned out on how conclusory so many youtube pop historians are. But you've really separated yourself from the pack! You're actually working things out yourself, open to new ideas, reviewing some of your older beliefs on the topic... I don't know, it's just really refreshing to see.
That 1860 cavalry saber looks amazing, it's just so sleek and classy
Man the musketeer style is good on you! Enjoyed!
As a HEMAist who trains sabre 95% of the time I enjoyed your honest take on this! Quite early on, I tried getting my hands on antiques, so I've had quite the opposite initial experience with these weapons compared to you. Because of that, the available training sabres never seemed good enough or do the antiques justice. Luckily, HEMA sabre as a whole has come a long way now and we're getting some good training sabres as well as good reproductions of antiques.
Looking good there Skall.......you might not be over keen but the swords like you, some good flowing moves.
Handling is everything when it comes to finesse moves.
Informative and fun as always!
One of the aspects we are prone to forget when we think about 19th century swords in particular is that they are at the end of centuries of the evolution and development of swords, and swordsmanship. They are not ultimates by any means, but they are designed to be highly useful tools if you have no time to reload a pistol, musket, or rifle. Reproductions are only really _reproductions_ if they are accurately done, otherwise I would call them crap. I would like to see a truly accurate reproduction of the 1821 pattern light cavalry trooper's saber. It replaced the 1796. Most of the time, what is offered is the pipe-backed officer's model, which is really a very different sword in detail. The trooper's saber had a superior blade that was in use until the end of the century (actually still is in use).
Hey! I've had that rain! Recently! I live in Ma. It's been wet here too.
You could have shown the taper a bit better, but that was a pretty good video ranty as it was.
Anyway enjoy your new outlook.
Hey Skal, I've had originals and repros in both patterns of swords and your take is spot on. The originals feel so much different than any of the repros I've had and I tell people it's because they were designed for one thing...killing. It's just that simple. You had to go through a lot of heavy wool clothes at the time not to mention backpacks, shakos etc. The blade needed to be thin and specialized for cutting rather than the crushing blows most people expect during this time period.
Have you ever done a video on the different types of martial arts and how they would transfer over to sword fighting?
Bummer. I continued watching because it looked like you might do some testing. I look forward to seeing how they cut later.
I love sabers! Good to see a well made 1796 but I personally hope that Lk Chen also reproduces the British 1821 light cavalry saber
Thanks skal! I've been wanting to find some good reproductions for a little while.
Back in the day, when there were "Patterns" of swords/sabres, there were numerous manufacturers; the swords were handmade to come close to those patterns, and the final field sharpening was often left to the Regimental Cutler/Armourer, so no doubt there may have been wide variations in sharpness and handling even among swords of one type !
Super good video, love the editing!
This channel is my go-to for watching an eating food
Shout out skall keep killin it
Very nice. As someone who also didnt like sabers much once upon a time, i can definitely understand. However i am quite fond of hungarian saber & shamshir these days. As well Qame & Qaddre short swords with buckler/separ.
Hey, it's pissing it down where you are too! Great sound to get to sleep to but less great when you need to work outside.
Always enjoy your videos Skal!
LK Chen...after my own heart. I'm really digging the expansion of his catalogue.
Can you do a review of your HEMA practice weapons? PHA pretty constantly iterates and changes their designs, but a "snapshot" to give general characteristics and build quality would be really cool.
This is so cool, I might try out a saber in the future!
Had a shitty week, spent with shitty people, and finally the week ends and I can have a good night with my friends. And then come home and continue to have a good time watching you. Thank you friends, and thank you Skall, I needed that
One of my first european swords was an antique 1860s british saber at an auction, as so many reviewers lamented how bad reproduction sabers were. Its lovely to handle and made me so glad I didnt try a reproduction saber first. In addition the new royal armories windlass 1796 saber is also very accurate in taper and quite nice!
glad to see somebody is finally making good revolution-civil war era sabers because i love them things.
In my opinion they look quite a bit like one of my favorite swords/sabers. The north african "Nimcha" saber. Very beautiful. Hope to see it in a video one day.
Your knowledge is incredible. Thanks for sharing
I saw you walking on the white background and thought we were about to get a James Bond intro, lol.
Just wanted to stop in and say, your lookin good my dude.
As a Jedi Master, i'm sad that you don't consider Lightsabers as a Saber.
Imagine if they actually made _saber_ style lightsabers. I mean, they make saberstaffs, saberclubs, shields, whips et cetera but not the one thing it was literally named for.
They are plasma batons nothing saber about them
Glowstick ≠ saber
We'll respect the light saber when the Jedi learn to sword wight and not dance.
A lightsaber is an energy longsword. Not an actual saber.
Skal, you look good, and the video is goooooooooood. Good job mate!
Great video! I've handled 6 different LK Chen swords and can definitely vouch for their quality. We have reviews of several Chinese and European swords made by them on our channel. I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on their sabers eventually.
Really enjoying the energy you brought here. I like cynical Skal, but I worry when that is every video. Love your work man. You are great. Also thanks for the tips.
Dang, Skall looking good today. Looking fit!
I don‘t know what it was, but the flow of this video was amazing.
Skall, you should look into the 1796 light cavalry saber being produced by Windlass, it's supposed to be a very good reproduction as well. It's one of a number of Windlass swords that are being made with Matt Easton acting as a consultant and providing dimensions and stats from antique examples of the swords being produced.
Fun fact: If you slightly change fittings to the 1796 you get basically Polish hussar saber
When I was 19, I desperately wanted to get a 1796 BLCS that Cold Steel sold.
They didn’t have any when I went to their sale/expo back in 2005, and I bought a hand and a half instead, which is… decent.
I still love seeing the 1796 pattern getting love. 🙏
The dude is back with another self-reflective, nuanced take. A lively blade makes for an alively swordfighter!
I'm awaiting my LK Chen Turco-mongolian saber. Expectations are high!
Skallagrim, You're the best! I just had to subscribe!
Assuming it’s a still on TH-cam, “Sean Bean’s Waterloo” gives a good demonstration of what an authentic antique 1796 LC sabre can do in the hands of a skilled cavalryman.
Good sword design is the thickest part of the blade is at the shoulder, tapering away both directions. Shoulders must be filed to an open obtuse angle.
Okay, I'm not a simp, but... Skal's outfit for this vid is just amazing! I get nastolgia from thise gloves and that shirt, but the jacket and pants were really pullijg the whole thing together. Like, Dang Skal. You look good. I mean, I enjoy your content no matter what you're wearing, but wow. 10/10. Looking great.
Yoshitaka Amano artwork in the bg. Nice!
I think it's cool that LK Chen is making these now.
I would really like a video comparing how accessible were swords and other weapons during the middle ages, renaisance, etc to how they are now
Nice video. I think Matt Easton from scholagladiatoria has done work with LK to produce some swords. I don't remember which ones specifically but it sounds like those sabers.
I love how my Easton mk3 sabre handles.
My own LK Chen 1796 just arrived. Doubleplus good! Timely.
Best entrance ever!
Beard looks great! More cavalry content would be interesting
When are we getting the full review? I'm waiting to purchase one until someone gives a thorough review of it.
I inherited an original 1796 from my grandad along with a lot of other swords, my favourite being a hemburg cutlass, I wish I still had it to send it for you to compare but unfortunately we had to sell most of the blades we had, thankfully most of it was to museums
It is Point or Tip control. You are moving around the Center of Gravity (CG) of the sword. The better feel you have of the CG the better tip control you will have. Aldo Nadi said that saber duels were bloody because you may have a lot of cuts, but not as lethal as an Epee. Great Video!!!
Thanks for making this video
I usually prefer stronger, sweeping cuts with follow-throughs, but that is mainly because I usually practice with axes and other forward-heavy weapons. They allow to strike hard and keep my strikes coming and potentially overwhelm enemy.
Really cool outfit, looking good skall :D
I have an original antique of the top one in the thumbnail, 1864 made in Chelmsford Massachusetts. they are quite hefty, very stiff. Definitely a cavalry weapon.
In olimpyc fencing with saber we use the same moves you suggest, we don't use big slash, we use smaller cut and thrust like here 7:25 and works a lot with the fingers and the small finger
Hair lookin good brochacho.
I'm surprised that no one gave you a lead for the film "Born to saber"
A comparison between the LK chen ligth cavalry 1796 and the one from Windlass would be really interesting. Similar pricerange and both seem to be of good quality.
I was given a WW1 era German artillery saber. While it has some weight, whoever had it cared enough to sharpen it.
I pity the poor kraut who carried that sword instead of a pistol.
Well they were in artillery so if they actually have to fight with someone then something probably had gone wrong
@@trevdestroyer8209 I mean it was taken back to the United States as a souvenir so I think it’s pretty safe to say something went wrong.