Been there and done that. Still have my first HEMA saber, my cheap beater and my beloved Kvetun. When I bought the kvetun I almost didn't order it the way I wanted to save money. Decided that was silly and if I was making the investment into the sword I wanted, I was going to get the sword I wanted.
I'm too poor to get into hema, but I always prefer to buy better quality stuff once than buy cheap stuff frequently. I guess that came from growing up watching my mother replacing kitchen utensils every few months because she kept buying stuff from the dollar store.
@@leviryan1228 I nearly bought a regenyei sabre instead, but I've since watched most of my club mates have fitment problems, chips and catastrophic breakages with theirs, meanwhile my Easton just keeps going 😁
yeah...too bad that Euro fighting style isn't how a Kilij was used. a Kilij is used more like an axe because it's center point is further down the blade due to the flare at the end of the blade, increasing it's weight on strike. Don't remember ever seeing anyone trying to do ' guard / riposte ' with an axe. Know the weapon and it's characteristics determines how you fight with it. A Kilij is basically an axe in sword form. Weapon Science or whatever it was called where they do scientific breakdowns of weapons did a complete breakdown of the Kilij due to it being the sword Vlad Tepesh carried and used in battle.
Im working on a review of the LK shamshir too. Compared to an antique shamshir. Its a good sword - not perfect, but good. Relatively accurate (slightly oversized hilt) and well made, with accurate blade geometry. One contributing factor to the lightness of this shamshir vs the original is the more acute cross sectional geometry, while the original is more appleseeded Worth noting LK chen added the pommel on the shamshir because the original has had its grip replaced - and almost certainly had a pommel at one point. This also explains the better fitment of the LK hilt vs the met photos
Problem. Kilij wasn't use like that. It's as say a katana and a motentr use same method... absolutely not. Kilif was a cavalry sword in base. So, kilij was use as an axe.
Awesome comparison Skall. Glad you revisited the Kilij now that you have another sabre to compare it against. This is a very important distinction about how the nuances of blade geometry and mass distribution can make a huge difference in the experience of the sword in hand. Even before you’ve done any target work I think you’ve done some great and very easy to grasp demonstrations that everyone will be able to see and understand how functionally different to swords are that might not seem so dissimilar on paper (or in a single photograph in profile).
Context, Skal! The shamshir was probably used in the environment where highly armed - lightly armoured enemies prevailed and kilidj at the battlefields of Europe, where even in the 17th more heavily armour could be met - cuirasses, vambraces and others.
And btw, you could show us the differences between the same type of sabre - specifically between this LK Chen piece and that from Windlass Steelcraft, you showed us a while ago.
The armor used is broadly similar, to be honest. The main issue here is that the blade type seen on the kilic is more like the much earlier (15th c) styles and this shamshir is like, 18th century style. Either way, this kilic is wildly inaccurate
Videos like these are the reason why I keep coming back to you. Many youtubers wouldn't correct their videos or add more information after completing the video
If you are ever looking for a high quality Kilij, you should definitely check out Kilij Osman Baskurt. Turkish weapons are his passion, and he takes historical accuracy extremely seriously. You can pick your preferred steel grade, but he also offers pattern welded and wootz.
Oxidation adds mass. The reproduction is likely close to ‘original weight’ of the original. Even without visible rust the chemical properties of steel exposed to air will change. Take that into account when comparing reproductions to museum pieces. Western swords are traditionally displayed blade out. On the other hand the reason so many ancient Japanese swords remain preserved is because they mostly stay in their scabbard and receive occasional maintenance.
You didn't show us one thing: where is the balance point of each sword? I expect the cheaper one to be more closer to the middle of the edge, and the other one to be more closer to the grip. Combine with the weight, it would explain better why at 6:44 it's much harder/tirring to use the cheaper one. Maybe showing this while doing the full review of the LK Chen shamshir would be cool :) But whatever, great video! :)
I'm not an expert on swordplay and body mechanics, but I know enough to ask questions. My main one is that even if they were comparable weights, wouldn't the kilij inherently be a bit slower than the shamshir because it's got more weight to the end of the blade? My understanding of body mechanics is that it requires more effort to lift something that's balanced more towards the tip than towards the guard, so a kilij with a similar shape would always be less agile than the shamshir. This isn't meant a criticism on your criticisms at all, by the way. I understand your points and I'm sure they're much more valid than I know. If anything it's a minor nitpick on the comparability of these two swords, and that's only if I'm correct in my assumption.
It is slower in the beginning. Once is set in motion actually is faster because the weight helps the motion. Think of an axe lifting it versus it going down. As a note there is a problem with how he tested how it handles because those are cavalery swords not infantry. But it has the advantage it cuts deeper. Also it can cut trough better armor being heavier.
@@Ciprian-IonutPanait There is also the simple fact that he's just not that strong of a guy (no offense to Skall here) but he's fairly out of shape, and getting older. A younger guy with more upper body strength isn't going to notice as much of a difference. While lighter blades are more nimble, you don't move any faster. The more strength you have the more mass you can move around without losing as much acceleration.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he maybe. I am not judging base on that. My only interest in turkish swords is purely historical since my people fought against them. About being more nimble or not it depends on many things. Being more nimble is othen more important in duels than war. That being said in any change there is a gain and loss. All I wanted to point out is that the gain is much bigger than the loss. If your sword does not damage the armor of the enemy does not matter how many cuts you make. A blade geometry closer to an axe ( triangular ) like a tulwar can cut much deeper into armor. And you can sacrifice some reach to compensate for the weight.
About how to rate things, there used to be an yearly magazine in my city that would rate a bunch of restaurants, they were separated by type (Japanese, Italian, etc), but one year they decided to have multiple ratings for each restaurant and an average one to define the best of the best, and one rating was cost/benefit, so the best taste was not necessarily the best cost benefit. And with that, you can have different things to analyse and rate, like, how forgiving it is to edge alignment, how thigh is the construction, things like that. And you can include things related to personal taste, so if someone has a different preference, they can look at the rest and ignore that part.
I think that comparison of handling is a MUST for next videos. You presented it so well and anyone can tell the difference. Well done! It's awesome that after so many years of YT you still have some new stuff to show us with different ways. Great video!
the handling comparison worked very well, i liked the way you formatted it. I'd love to see more of that in comparison videos and review videos generally. great stuff, Skall
I'm sure someone would be glad to put you up for a trip to the Met and the Cloisters. It's absolutely worth the trip. If I were still in NY I would definitely offer to do it myself.
Ooh this is really helpful. The handling difference you showed off is REALLY useful, I've been looking at trying to get myself a falchion or the sort for years now but having only bought one expensive but shoddy Hand and a half sword, I didn't know since I had no personal frame of reference for how it should feel in handling, trying to find a historical equivalent is also a good idea...
Always love your content Skal As for a newer viewer whose binged watched your older videos after seeing your newest uploads, in regards to your reviews from years ago compared to now, i love the depth you you put when it always is a big ol' it depends on circumstance in the end anyways, alao how you change your perspective when presented with new information also is an admirable quality as your not trying be biased (even though we all have our favourites) and give an honest review Lastly, your looking much more trimmed there buddy keep up the good work eh
Awesome Review my friend, always enjoy your videos becuase you really do your research and your sword fighting skills are geniune! Been a long time subscriber and Glad to see you are settled at your place, and now concentrating on making top quality videos, you set the atmosphere very well, great music choices too!
I think you were right in the beginning. You have to compare price/quality between items. If you dismiss the (I'm assuming) doubling of cost then your comparing Corollas and Caymans.
I have a tulwar and a shamshir that compare similarly in terms of handling. I am sure there is a quality discrepancy in the two you are reviewing, but I wonder if there's a difference in intended purpose too. My shamshir is a light, nimble blade that moves well for sword play, and the tulwar is a hulking beast that cuts like it's angry at the world. If I was taking them into a fight, I would only want to use the tulwar if I had a shield in the other hand.
Good point, also goes for cavalry swords. For instance, european hussars did use thier jackets as form of "shield" by wrapping it around thier hand. A common tactic around europe as most people even during summer had a form of over garment for low intensity activitiea
Semşir kalkanlı piyade silahı. Tulvar da öyle. Kılıç. Yani karabela önce bir süvari kılıcı sonra genel bir kılıç olarak evrim geçirdi. İlk formu düz bir subay kılıçıydı.
In fact, both swords were shaped according to the conditions and requirements of the time. Shamshir was produced to neutralize unarmored or lightly armored infantry and archer units. Iran and the Ottomans adopted its widespread use because both sides wanted to be the dominant state in the region, so they fought with each other many times. When the Ottomans managed to become the only power in the region, they were confronted by the heavily armored crusaders in the west, who even had heavy armor on their horses, and other similar Balkan warriors. He updated Ottoman battle tactics and war equipment. Shamshir was replaced by the heavier Turkish kilija, which had a thicker center of balance higher. The main effect of the Kilij was not how cleanly it cut, but how it cut armored armor at the same time, just like an ax or machete. Another known fact is that these swords were often used by cavalry troops, infantrymen had a straighter curve but not as much as a European sword. He used "karabela" or "pala kilij". Super Video
The information and handling parts were great. But we must not forget that kılıç(kilij) was meant to be used with a shield and against people whit either a gambison or armour hence the extra weight and the different shape and less pronounced curviture of the blade. (İf i made mistakes in spellings or info sorry about it please correct me with resources)
Great comparison video! I think it would help if you reminded us what some of the jargon means in these videos, when it's relevant; it took me a second to remember what a distal taper is, and people who haven't watched your channel before might have been confused.
@@shadowsensei9040 quite possibly, but I believe that sword may have just been more ceremonial/parade purposes. He did own multiple swords, so maybe the one he took with him to the field would have been a regular sized one of sorts 🤔 But that big kilij however is so damn pretty, I wanna see it in person some day!
@@zorlusavasevreni901 I would love to see the specimen in person and see the dimensions of the blade etc. I am getting a feeling that if the blade is not too thick then it could have been possible to wield it, but only as a 2-handed sword. But I doubt he would have done it though.
The price of one of my most prized possessions, a certain gold-nibbed fountain pen, is within that margin of difference. Truly, the pen is mightier than the sword.
the difference in handling shows really well on camera. i immediately noticed some clumsiness with the kilij, while the shamshir moves efficiently along the exact path you want it to.
Handling might be difficult to convey on camera, but I think you did a good job. It helped tremendously when you could see the two video clips one after the another or even better side by side.
One thing that I've been pondering on, in regards to the curve of the shamshir, is how well can you give the oppponent the point, aka thrust with it, while doing a messer like false edge cut. Since you're planning on doing test cuts with both of these, might I suggest you to try that out as well.
Assuming it would be similarly done as with katanas where you turn the blade upward to make it easier to thrust, although with that strong curve it could be an overhead thrust...
@@ProcyonDei upward or sideway. You can also bypass the shield through the right or left. technically you could go under as well but it let's you to open to counter. As a note katanas are an extremely bad example. They are not curved enough to have a correlation. Also you cannot really thrust with a katana. Too curved to thrust normally , too straight to use the sabre trick. Katanas have an extremely bad design overall
You're not taking into account that the focus of what time and contexts these swords were, The kilij is older more cavalry shield focus and that type of shamshir is alot more infantry focused. Their adapted better to their needs. And for sometimes this reason not all swords have distal taper.
Wouldn't the Killij blade geometry say it was that way to better get past another swords defense and better at defense? Stronger in a bind and better at getting through a block or better at a block? They were both from the same region at the same time so it would be logical that one may prefer one over the other depending on how they fight.
Ok, I'm JUST getting into the world of sword collecting and I really have my heart set on a kilij... Does anyone know where I can find a "functional" one that is better crafted than this one? Or is this still what I should consider for a first-time buyer who just wants to do the odd bit of back-yard cutting?
It's nice to see more reproduction middle and near Eastern swords, just a few years ago only Cold Steel and Windlass had anything worth considering at a reasonable price point
Very impressive. I could see the difference in handling even before the official handling test, when you were just moving them around while talking about them.
It seems like the kiloj may be more of a cavalry sword, in which case it’s not a fair comparison. Also, our museum’s over represent high end weapons because those are the ones that survived.
One thing I noticed in this video is that a blade with a stronger curve leaves more material to protect you from the side to the front, while a straight sword may offer a point to threaten your opponent it leaves your front more open
I just had fall in love with shamshir. That kind of sword is just abusive. Against not heavy armored people it probably was terrifying. Fast, high possibilities of going around the guard and insane slashing in short distance.
Turks were not keen on engaging heavy armored opponents with swords in a battle, and duels weren't a Turkish thing to test swords in armoured melee. This thing is strictly for slashing through lightly or moderately armoured enemies ideally from a horseback after you softened them up with arrows and javelins
Would you feel the same stupor and improvement if you described it as a 55% inrease in price? On the consumer side, it's a single purchase, so the difference is a single addition. On the business side, it's a matter of a little more for EVERY piece. With that, that shamshir looks like it's amazing, can't wait for the review!
I love the intricacies of sword/weapon terminology, both for medieval and early modern weapons. Simply having a spur, or mahmuz partway down the blade is enough to make a shamshir or other convexly curved sword into a kilij, while having a more radically curved blade makes it a shamshir, and so on.
There are a few differences that are more important to me: 1. the curvature. bigger curvature means cuts better but has other disadvantages like for thrusting 2. the back edge . The cheaper one has a sharp "fake" back edge that can be used for some cuts the other is unable to do. 3. weight can be a disadvantage but also a plus. If you fight better armor using a heavier sword might be more tiring but also cut deeper. As a note the kilij evolved from the shamshir with the evolution or armor. Another problem with your analysis is that those were not used in infantry duels most of time but rather in actual battles, mostly on horseback. About the finish here is the issue: officers would have the finish and flourishes but I doubt all 50k to 250k men could be equiped all with the best grade swords. Consider that after the fall of the ottoman empire most non officer swords were destroyed.
'As a note the kilij evolved from the shamshir with the evolution or armor' This is not quite accurate; Turks were using curved swords before the shamshir.
@@Cagdas_AKCAY shamshir is persian. is very old. The turks became a nation much later . yes they had other curved swords before but the kilij was based on the shamshir in my opinion
You'd think Skall could travel anywhere anytime with that many followers and content. No way he optimizes his monetization, which might be a good sign I don't know.
His views are low for his sub count, though. In 24 hours this video only managed 1.3% views compared to subs... I don't think he's raking in the dough. Subs only count if you're getting the views from them.
when you stack them together at 5:53, it makes it look like a zulfiqar, now it begs the question, was the zulfiqar 2 swords stacked together instead of 1? because someone was looking at it from afar?
I didn’t feel the difference so great. Based on your first presentation, the first one is still a decent one for its price, and the other one seems only to be as better as more expensive it is. ...As contrary to how you presented it now, from my perspective this price difference was still considerable. Seeing from where I stand the question can also posed: buy a still relatively decent saber for a price what one still could somehow pay, or not to buy one, which is otherwise indeed better. Not to mention, that many of the quality differences can be “upgraded” at home for almost no costs, if you know how.
That's like comparing a Nordic sword to a rapier, or apples to potatoes ! The kilij is meant to be heavier, and reinforced at the end (yalman/yelman) for stabbing, and for chopping blows; whereas the Shamshir is lighter and more nimble, for slicing cuts.
Greetings @Skallagrim. A good video which made me wonder and curious about the 'Saber' family. In particular about the time of the slavic vikings and their Saber. What characteristics do they have and what makes them different to later sabers from the cosacs, Poland husars, Hungarian etc.? Why I am asking this? Well I will marry in May and I want to use a good example of an slavic Saber for the weapons exchange ceremony on my wedding. The Saber symbols for me the 'East' and the normal viking sword or viking era sword more the 'West' of ancient Europe. Thank you for your time and attention! Best regards from the Netherlands
I have bought about a half a dozen LK Chen swords and all but one has been significantly underweight and under dimension. Still great swords though, or I wouldn't have bought so many.
How you fought with the swords matters. The techniques will be different. Also, it matters if it was a sword for infantry or cavalry. Swords used or horseback will be different.
I would like to see you put them through tests, I feel like one is made exclusively for dueling and the other is more a tool or built to last in large scale combat.
It would be a valid comparison wrt to handling, if the swords were of the same type and weight. Are you trying to say that samshirs handle better than kilijs in general?
The heft of the kilij may make it more suitable for delivering deeper cuts, but the wider angle of the edge reduces its ability to deliver deeper cuts. I suspect that they would have similar performance against things like wooden shields, but the shamshir might hsve the advantage against clothen armour. The kilij certainly look like it would be sturdier than that shamshir.
@Skallagrim Awesome video as always! i have a wall of weapons but none of them metal haha, would love to have one one day. Speaking of which, i sent you that final piece a few weeks back, I think it should be there by now... hopefully haha. I sent you an email with details on it let me know if you didnt get it. mahalo!
You really compare something's performance to the performance of something else then you can decide how the price stacks up. If something is 10% better but 1000% more expensive it's usually not worth it.
Exactly this. Like no s**t the shamshir that costs twice as much as the kilij is going to be better in some way, especially if it's made by a more reputable sword maker...
After I bought a cheap hema sabre, and then later on, buying a good Kvetun sabre, I learned the whole 'buy once cry once' thing really holds water.
Man I love the handling on my Easton mk3. I think I'm getting a little lazy about protecting my hand because of the big bell guard though.
Been there and done that. Still have my first HEMA saber, my cheap beater and my beloved Kvetun. When I bought the kvetun I almost didn't order it the way I wanted to save money. Decided that was silly and if I was making the investment into the sword I wanted, I was going to get the sword I wanted.
I'm too poor to get into hema, but I always prefer to buy better quality stuff once than buy cheap stuff frequently. I guess that came from growing up watching my mother replacing kitchen utensils every few months because she kept buying stuff from the dollar store.
@@leviryan1228 I nearly bought a regenyei sabre instead, but I've since watched most of my club mates have fitment problems, chips and catastrophic breakages with theirs, meanwhile my Easton just keeps going 😁
It's always better to buy fewer good swords than more garbage ones.
Kudos for the way you showed how each sword handled. The side by side comparison made the difference apparent.
Especially the stress shown in his body language.
yeah...too bad that Euro fighting style isn't how a Kilij was used. a Kilij is used more like an axe because it's center point is further down the blade due to the flare at the end of the blade, increasing it's weight on strike. Don't remember ever seeing anyone trying to do ' guard / riposte ' with an axe. Know the weapon and it's characteristics determines how you fight with it. A Kilij is basically an axe in sword form.
Weapon Science or whatever it was called where they do scientific breakdowns of weapons did a complete breakdown of the Kilij due to it being the sword Vlad Tepesh carried and used in battle.
I found Skall's facial expressions did more than the sword movements.
In reality, kilij was use by cavalry in begin.
I just regret hesn't use a cut test for see.
Im working on a review of the LK shamshir too. Compared to an antique shamshir.
Its a good sword - not perfect, but good. Relatively accurate (slightly oversized hilt) and well made, with accurate blade geometry.
One contributing factor to the lightness of this shamshir vs the original is the more acute cross sectional geometry, while the original is more appleseeded
Worth noting LK chen added the pommel on the shamshir because the original has had its grip replaced - and almost certainly had a pommel at one point. This also explains the better fitment of the LK hilt vs the met photos
LKChen is turning into one of my favorite sword makers. They have such a diverse line of swords and they are well made for the price.
I wish they would make a shashka
Seeing the handling side by side really sells what you're talking about. Well done, thanks for the demonstration!
Problem. Kilij wasn't use like that.
It's as say a katana and a motentr use same method... absolutely not.
Kilif was a cavalry sword in base. So, kilij was use as an axe.
Awesome comparison Skall. Glad you revisited the Kilij now that you have another sabre to compare it against. This is a very important distinction about how the nuances of blade geometry and mass distribution can make a huge difference in the experience of the sword in hand. Even before you’ve done any target work I think you’ve done some great and very easy to grasp demonstrations that everyone will be able to see and understand how functionally different to swords are that might not seem so dissimilar on paper (or in a single photograph in profile).
The handling comparison segment was mind blowing
As a persian, I've wanted a decent shamshir to be reviewed here for a LONG time now ! So exited !!❤️🔥
🔥🔥🔥
Context, Skal! The shamshir was probably used in the environment where highly armed - lightly armoured enemies prevailed and kilidj at the battlefields of Europe, where even in the 17th more heavily armour could be met - cuirasses, vambraces and others.
And btw, you could show us the differences between the same type of sabre - specifically between this LK Chen piece and that from Windlass Steelcraft, you showed us a while ago.
The armor used is broadly similar, to be honest. The main issue here is that the blade type seen on the kilic is more like the much earlier (15th c) styles and this shamshir is like, 18th century style.
Either way, this kilic is wildly inaccurate
Skal isn't comparing every shamshir to every kilij in this video. He's talking about these two specific reproduction and their quality.
Videos like these are the reason why I keep coming back to you. Many youtubers wouldn't correct their videos or add more information after completing the video
If you are ever looking for a high quality Kilij, you should definitely check out Kilij Osman Baskurt. Turkish weapons are his passion, and he takes historical accuracy extremely seriously. You can pick your preferred steel grade, but he also offers pattern welded and wootz.
Kilij Osman baskurt
Oxidation adds mass. The reproduction is likely close to ‘original weight’ of the original. Even without visible rust the chemical properties of steel exposed to air will change. Take that into account when comparing reproductions to museum pieces. Western swords are traditionally displayed blade out. On the other hand the reason so many ancient Japanese swords remain preserved is because they mostly stay in their scabbard and receive occasional maintenance.
It's not a lot of weight, though. Pretty much negligible
@@Poodleinacan100% negligible
At the point your blade is “heavy from oxidation” then weight is the least of your worries
You didn't show us one thing: where is the balance point of each sword?
I expect the cheaper one to be more closer to the middle of the edge, and the other one to be more closer to the grip. Combine with the weight, it would explain better why at 6:44 it's much harder/tirring to use the cheaper one. Maybe showing this while doing the full review of the LK Chen shamshir would be cool :)
But whatever, great video! :)
I'm not an expert on swordplay and body mechanics, but I know enough to ask questions. My main one is that even if they were comparable weights, wouldn't the kilij inherently be a bit slower than the shamshir because it's got more weight to the end of the blade? My understanding of body mechanics is that it requires more effort to lift something that's balanced more towards the tip than towards the guard, so a kilij with a similar shape would always be less agile than the shamshir.
This isn't meant a criticism on your criticisms at all, by the way. I understand your points and I'm sure they're much more valid than I know. If anything it's a minor nitpick on the comparability of these two swords, and that's only if I'm correct in my assumption.
It is slower in the beginning. Once is set in motion actually is faster because the weight helps the motion. Think of an axe lifting it versus it going down. As a note there is a problem with how he tested how it handles because those are cavalery swords not infantry. But it has the advantage it cuts deeper. Also it can cut trough better armor being heavier.
@@Ciprian-IonutPanait There is also the simple fact that he's just not that strong of a guy (no offense to Skall here) but he's fairly out of shape, and getting older. A younger guy with more upper body strength isn't going to notice as much of a difference. While lighter blades are more nimble, you don't move any faster. The more strength you have the more mass you can move around without losing as much acceleration.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he maybe. I am not judging base on that. My only interest in turkish swords is purely historical since my people fought against them. About being more nimble or not it depends on many things. Being more nimble is othen more important in duels than war. That being said in any change there is a gain and loss. All I wanted to point out is that the gain is much bigger than the loss. If your sword does not damage the armor of the enemy does not matter how many cuts you make. A blade geometry closer to an axe ( triangular ) like a tulwar can cut much deeper into armor. And you can sacrifice some reach to compensate for the weight.
About how to rate things, there used to be an yearly magazine in my city that would rate a bunch of restaurants, they were separated by type (Japanese, Italian, etc), but one year they decided to have multiple ratings for each restaurant and an average one to define the best of the best, and one rating was cost/benefit, so the best taste was not necessarily the best cost benefit.
And with that, you can have different things to analyse and rate, like, how forgiving it is to edge alignment, how thigh is the construction, things like that.
And you can include things related to personal taste, so if someone has a different preference, they can look at the rest and ignore that part.
All praise to the side by side comparison segment. A really cool demonstration and we'll filmed to see the techniques
I love the comparison in handling, it get that it is not scientific or anything, but i would love to see that more often.
I think that comparison of handling is a MUST for next videos. You presented it so well and anyone can tell the difference. Well done! It's awesome that after so many years of YT you still have some new stuff to show us with different ways.
Great video!
I really liked the split screen presentation; it was highly informative.
the handling comparison worked very well, i liked the way you formatted it. I'd love to see more of that in comparison videos and review videos generally. great stuff, Skall
I would love that guard design on a longsword. Particularly a nice triangular shaped blade.
Its pretty.
It's good seeing that LK Chen made a good reproduction of the Shamshir.
Now I can go Prince of Persia.
I'm sure someone would be glad to put you up for a trip to the Met and the Cloisters. It's absolutely worth the trip. If I were still in NY I would definitely offer to do it myself.
Ooh this is really helpful. The handling difference you showed off is REALLY useful, I've been looking at trying to get myself a falchion or the sort for years now but having only bought one expensive but shoddy Hand and a half sword, I didn't know since I had no personal frame of reference for how it should feel in handling, trying to find a historical equivalent is also a good idea...
Always love your content Skal
As for a newer viewer whose binged watched your older videos after seeing your newest uploads, in regards to your reviews from years ago compared to now, i love the depth you you put when it always is a big ol' it depends on circumstance in the end anyways, alao how you change your perspective when presented with new information also is an admirable quality as your not trying be biased (even though we all have our favourites) and give an honest review
Lastly, your looking much more trimmed there buddy
keep up the good work eh
Awesome Review my friend, always enjoy your videos becuase you really do your research and your sword fighting skills are geniune! Been a long time subscriber and Glad to see you are settled at your place, and now concentrating on making top quality videos, you set the atmosphere very well, great music choices too!
I think you were right in the beginning. You have to compare price/quality between items. If you dismiss the (I'm assuming) doubling of cost then your comparing Corollas and Caymans.
I have a tulwar and a shamshir that compare similarly in terms of handling. I am sure there is a quality discrepancy in the two you are reviewing, but I wonder if there's a difference in intended purpose too. My shamshir is a light, nimble blade that moves well for sword play, and the tulwar is a hulking beast that cuts like it's angry at the world. If I was taking them into a fight, I would only want to use the tulwar if I had a shield in the other hand.
Good point, also goes for cavalry swords. For instance, european hussars did use thier jackets as form of "shield" by wrapping it around thier hand. A common tactic around europe as most people even during summer had a form of over garment for low intensity activitiea
Semşir kalkanlı piyade silahı. Tulvar da öyle. Kılıç. Yani karabela önce bir süvari kılıcı sonra genel bir kılıç olarak evrim geçirdi. İlk formu düz bir subay kılıçıydı.
Historically it was used with shields
That Shamshir is beautiful,I can't wait for the cutting tests.
In fact, both swords were shaped according to the conditions and requirements of the time. Shamshir was produced to neutralize unarmored or lightly armored infantry and archer units. Iran and the Ottomans adopted its widespread use because both sides wanted to be the dominant state in the region, so they fought with each other many times. When the Ottomans managed to become the only power in the region, they were confronted by the heavily armored crusaders in the west, who even had heavy armor on their horses, and other similar Balkan warriors. He updated Ottoman battle tactics and war equipment. Shamshir was replaced by the heavier Turkish kilija, which had a thicker center of balance higher. The main effect of the Kilij was not how cleanly it cut, but how it cut armored armor at the same time, just like an ax or machete. Another known fact is that these swords were often used by cavalry troops, infantrymen had a straighter curve but not as much as a European sword. He used "karabela" or "pala kilij". Super Video
The information and handling parts were great. But we must not forget that kılıç(kilij) was meant to be used with a shield and against people whit either a gambison or armour hence the extra weight and the different shape and less pronounced curviture of the blade. (İf i made mistakes in spellings or info sorry about it please correct me with resources)
Great comparison video! I think it would help if you reminded us what some of the jargon means in these videos, when it's relevant; it took me a second to remember what a distal taper is, and people who haven't watched your channel before might have been confused.
I know for someone in the west only 170 dollars isn't that massive a deal but for us out in the 3rd world that's a fucking massive difference in price
Money isn't everything, but when well used, money can lead to better results just because of the quality of materials or the way it was made.
Mehmed II had a kilij that is overall 126 cm long and it looks really nice too!
126cm... use by two hands i think😅
@@shadowsensei9040 quite possibly, but I believe that sword may have just been more ceremonial/parade purposes. He did own multiple swords, so maybe the one he took with him to the field would have been a regular sized one of sorts 🤔 But that big kilij however is so damn pretty, I wanna see it in person some day!
@@AKRexIt was a ceremonial sword, he did not use it to fight, but he could easily lift it into the air.
@@zorlusavasevreni901 I would love to see the specimen in person and see the dimensions of the blade etc. I am getting a feeling that if the blade is not too thick then it could have been possible to wield it, but only as a 2-handed sword. But I doubt he would have done it though.
@@AKRex yes
Good video👍🏼👍🏼
You should make a video with master khorasani about historical style of using shamshir.
It will amazing
The price of one of my most prized possessions, a certain gold-nibbed fountain pen, is within that margin of difference. Truly, the pen is mightier than the sword.
the difference in handling shows really well on camera.
i immediately noticed some clumsiness with the kilij, while the shamshir moves efficiently along the exact path you want it to.
Handling might be difficult to convey on camera, but I think you did a good job. It helped tremendously when you could see the two video clips one after the another or even better side by side.
One thing that I've been pondering on, in regards to the curve of the shamshir, is how well can you give the oppponent the point, aka thrust with it, while doing a messer like false edge cut. Since you're planning on doing test cuts with both of these, might I suggest you to try that out as well.
very hard with a shamshit, but with the kilij is pretty easy and can be done over shields
Assuming it would be similarly done as with katanas where you turn the blade upward to make it easier to thrust, although with that strong curve it could be an overhead thrust...
@@ProcyonDei upward or sideway. You can also bypass the shield through the right or left. technically you could go under as well but it let's you to open to counter. As a note katanas are an extremely bad example. They are not curved enough to have a correlation. Also you cannot really thrust with a katana. Too curved to thrust normally , too straight to use the sabre trick. Katanas have an extremely bad design overall
I can say that in fact your show of handling is very effective.
Maybe not for someone who has no experience with swordfighting.
Surprise Zulfiqar at 5:51 💪💪💪💪💪 YA ALI!
Great video as always, and looking leaner too- keep trucking Skal
That handling test really feels like some pure Attack Speed stat :')
Definitely looking forward to the full review and cut tests.
Your direct comparison segment would make for a great yt short. At least for someone like me. It's a very apparent and fascinating difference.
I was literally sitting on your channel, wishing you'd upload. lol
i would like to see skall with georgian gorda sword and
georgian(kenvsurian) sword
You're not taking into account that the focus of what time and contexts these swords were,
The kilij is older more cavalry shield focus and that type of shamshir is alot more infantry focused.
Their adapted better to their needs. And for sometimes this reason not all swords have distal taper.
I love the part where relaxing music plays and we can observe Skal tire himself while snacking on fried chips. Very soothing.
Waiting for the cut test!
Wouldn't the Killij blade geometry say it was that way to better get past another swords defense and better at defense? Stronger in a bind and better at getting through a block or better at a block? They were both from the same region at the same time so it would be logical that one may prefer one over the other depending on how they fight.
the kilij evolved from the shamshir...
no shamshir evolved from old turco-mongol sabers one of them was kilij just look at Avar saber.@@Ciprian-IonutPanait
Shamsir evolved from kilij@@Ciprian-IonutPanait
Ok, I'm JUST getting into the world of sword collecting and I really have my heart set on a kilij... Does anyone know where I can find a "functional" one that is better crafted than this one? Or is this still what I should consider for a first-time buyer who just wants to do the odd bit of back-yard cutting?
It's nice to see more reproduction middle and near Eastern swords, just a few years ago only Cold Steel and Windlass had anything worth considering at a reasonable price point
I really like the side by side video with the form demonstration
Very impressive. I could see the difference in handling even before the official handling test, when you were just moving them around while talking about them.
It seems like the kiloj may be more of a cavalry sword, in which case it’s not a fair comparison. Also, our museum’s over represent high end weapons because those are the ones that survived.
Dude! $170 does buy more apparently! Your moves with it were crazy fast too! That's it! I'm gettin one! LOL
7:40
you can see the strain in your face when using the kiliji.
One thing I noticed in this video is that a blade with a stronger curve leaves more material to protect you from the side to the front, while a straight sword may offer a point to threaten your opponent it leaves your front more open
I just had fall in love with shamshir. That kind of sword is just abusive. Against not heavy armored people it probably was terrifying. Fast, high possibilities of going around the guard and insane slashing in short distance.
Turks were not keen on engaging heavy armored opponents with swords in a battle, and duels weren't a Turkish thing to test swords in armoured melee. This thing is strictly for slashing through lightly or moderately armoured enemies ideally from a horseback after you softened them up with arrows and javelins
@@subutaynoyan5372 Turks do not have a duel culture, but they love wrestling.
Would you feel the same stupor and improvement if you described it as a 55% inrease in price?
On the consumer side, it's a single purchase, so the difference is a single addition. On the business side, it's a matter of a little more for EVERY piece.
With that, that shamshir looks like it's amazing, can't wait for the review!
I love the intricacies of sword/weapon terminology, both for medieval and early modern weapons. Simply having a spur, or mahmuz partway down the blade is enough to make a shamshir or other convexly curved sword into a kilij, while having a more radically curved blade makes it a shamshir, and so on.
Well done showing the diffrence between how they handle. Would like to see more of that
ONLY $170...........😢
I appreciate your analysis and candor. Also lookin good in the cosplays.
The side by side handling demo is very good.
Loved the random arnold edit 😂
People today really underestimate how much small differences in weight and balance can really make a huge difference in handling and endurance.
That set of same moves with both swords was cool! This little difference in timing is actually a lot))
There are a few differences that are more important to me: 1. the curvature. bigger curvature means cuts better but has other disadvantages like for thrusting 2. the back edge . The cheaper one has a sharp "fake" back edge that can be used for some cuts the other is unable to do. 3. weight can be a disadvantage but also a plus. If you fight better armor using a heavier sword might be more tiring but also cut deeper. As a note the kilij evolved from the shamshir with the evolution or armor. Another problem with your analysis is that those were not used in infantry duels most of time but rather in actual battles, mostly on horseback. About the finish here is the issue: officers would have the finish and flourishes but I doubt all 50k to 250k men could be equiped all with the best grade swords. Consider that after the fall of the ottoman empire most non officer swords were destroyed.
'As a note the kilij evolved from the shamshir with the evolution or armor' This is not quite accurate; Turks were using curved swords before the shamshir.
@@Cagdas_AKCAY shamshir is persian. is very old. The turks became a nation much later . yes they had other curved swords before but the kilij was based on the shamshir in my opinion
Very interesting. I've always wanted to get into sabres but never felt like I knew what to look for.
You see those warriors from Canada? They've got curved swords! Curved! Swords!
You'd think Skall could travel anywhere anytime with that many followers and content. No way he optimizes his monetization, which might be a good sign I don't know.
His views are low for his sub count, though. In 24 hours this video only managed 1.3% views compared to subs...
I don't think he's raking in the dough. Subs only count if you're getting the views from them.
when you stack them together at 5:53, it makes it look like a zulfiqar, now it begs the question, was the zulfiqar 2 swords stacked together instead of 1? because someone was looking at it from afar?
I didn’t feel the difference so great. Based on your first presentation, the first one is still a decent one for its price, and the other one seems only to be as better as more expensive it is. ...As contrary to how you presented it now, from my perspective this price difference was still considerable. Seeing from where I stand the question can also posed: buy a still relatively decent saber for a price what one still could somehow pay, or not to buy one, which is otherwise indeed better. Not to mention, that many of the quality differences can be “upgraded” at home for almost no costs, if you know how.
Thank you for demonstrating the handling. The cheaper sword was visibly harder to handle even without the side-by-side comparison.
That's like comparing a Nordic sword to a rapier, or apples to potatoes ! The kilij is meant to be heavier, and reinforced at the end (yalman/yelman) for stabbing, and for chopping blows; whereas the Shamshir is lighter and more nimble, for slicing cuts.
Comparing this shamshir with the windlass shamshir would also be great in that upcoming review.
Greetings @Skallagrim. A good video which made me wonder and curious about the 'Saber' family. In particular about the time of the slavic vikings and their Saber. What characteristics do they have and what makes them different to later sabers from the cosacs, Poland husars, Hungarian etc.? Why I am asking this? Well I will marry in May and I want to use a good example of an slavic Saber for the weapons exchange ceremony on my wedding. The Saber symbols for me the 'East' and the normal viking sword or viking era sword more the 'West' of ancient Europe. Thank you for your time and attention! Best regards from the Netherlands
I have bought about a half a dozen LK Chen swords and all but one has been significantly underweight and under dimension. Still great swords though, or I wouldn't have bought so many.
Can't wait to see that review
Absolute Laser !!
How you fought with the swords matters. The techniques will be different. Also, it matters if it was a sword for infantry or cavalry. Swords used or horseback will be different.
I would like to see you put them through tests, I feel like one is made exclusively for dueling and the other is more a tool or built to last in large scale combat.
The Kilij here is inferior to one made by someone with a true passion for Kilij.
@@fransthefox9682but it’s literally made in Yatağan
Really enjoyed seeing that handling comparison.
Yup. Agree with everyone else. The side by side comparison really showed the difference !
nice:). can't wait for the full review
Waiting for the lk chen shamshir review.
Wondering if it's worth replacing my windlass steel crafts shamshir with it
It would be a valid comparison wrt to handling, if the swords were of the same type and weight. Are you trying to say that samshirs handle better than kilijs in general?
I'm really curious on the difference of blade durability, cutting ease and force potential.
Would the Shamshir be better against hard targets/armor because of the weight and steeper blade angle?
The heft of the kilij may make it more suitable for delivering deeper cuts, but the wider angle of the edge reduces its ability to deliver deeper cuts. I suspect that they would have similar performance against things like wooden shields, but the shamshir might hsve the advantage against clothen armour. The kilij certainly look like it would be sturdier than that shamshir.
*might have
6:50 irl video game weapon comparison video
Love you skal ❤
Sword request: Review the Type 32 Cavalry Sabre!
skal holdin ghtose 2 curved swords makes him look like an elden ring invader
I would really like to see a stress test for the lk chen shamshir sword
Im already into photography and watch collecting. As much as i want to, I dont think I'll be able to add sword collecting to the list.
@Skallagrim Awesome video as always! i have a wall of weapons but none of them metal haha, would love to have one one day. Speaking of which, i sent you that final piece a few weeks back, I think it should be there by now... hopefully haha. I sent you an email with details on it let me know if you didnt get it. mahalo!
You really compare something's performance to the performance of something else then you can decide how the price stacks up. If something is 10% better but 1000% more expensive it's usually not worth it.
Exactly this. Like no s**t the shamshir that costs twice as much as the kilij is going to be better in some way, especially if it's made by a more reputable sword maker...