If all discussions about Longswords and Katanas were like this one, we'd be a lot closer to the romanticised ideals of Knights and Samurai that won us all over as wide eyed children and made us come to apprechiate these weapons in the first place.
It wouldnt be the internet if stupid people weren't allowed to have a voice. Also the problem with weebs and nerds is that for people who seemingly love rpgs they can't seem to grasp the fact that some swords are used for one purpose and other swords for other purposes. You would use an axe to do a spear's job after all. The katana is amazing against what it was intended to fight but shit against things that it was NOT intended to fight.
@@bensweeney5878 I prefer long swords. You know like... swords that are long, designed to be used with two hands, used as a symbol of your caste and the trust placed in you by a superior. A sidegrade to a military long weapon or a ranged weapon. Something people associate with armed martial arts. You know, long swords. Wait...
When England knighted a pirate, chivarly died in England. See my series proving that the British Empire was NOT the biggest. Idiots count the last grain of sand in Australia but say the Pacific Ocean (Spanish lake) doesn't count. Ridiculous.
Appreciate the response video! I value your opinion, so was good to hear. And you’re right, they’re more like Coke vs 7up rather than polar opposites. Cheers man! - D
@@annhentaiuser6658 he’s kinda succeeded though. Sure it has its cons (as does any other scabbard) but it’s the most practical way I’ve seen to wear a sword of that size
A good comparison with the cultural legacy of the katana is probably the English late-medieval longbow. They're both decent weapons that played an important role in the arms&armour of their period, but have become mythologised to the point that there are an obscene amount of over exaggerations about both, and attitudes to them are (for some people) closely tied to feelings of superiority of one culture above others. This creates a backlash of people who are so fed up with the myths - and the mythmakers - that they then go to far and needlessly denigrate the weapons. All this makes anything approaching a rational discussion of the strengths, weaknesses, and historical impact of those weapons all but impossible.
Yeah, honestly. Don't get me wrong, english longbows are impressive and fearsome weapons. As an archer myself, I can't even fathom how people would shoot certain longbows up to 100lbs for an entire battle. However, that doesn't mean it is superior to other bows outright. In the end it depends on circumstance and the skill of the user and a dose of luck. As with all weapons
@@canadious6933 I was thinking more of the longbow vs crossbow and longbow vs armour arguments that people have on the internet. Compared to other hand bows, the yew longbow is laughably primitive. It is Neolithic (if not Mesolithic) technology compared to the recurve and/or composite bows that existed in the early iron age: 1500 years before the Hundred Years War. Not to even bring Turkic or Chinese bows into the comparison. And yet, in the hands of skilled archer who was part of a professional, combined-force army, the longbow was remarkably effective. Just goes to show that, before the early modern period, technology had a minor impact on the battlefield compared to the social and human part of war. But that's a whole other debate!
@@QuantumHistorian I'm an archer myself (previouosly modern recurve, now composite bow) and i 100% agree. Comparing a longbow to a composite bow is like comparing a club to an intricately designed and balanced mace. Sure both can do the same job, but there is so much more technology benefiting and optimizing the composite bow. The only true advantage of a longbow is it being much cheaper and easier to produce, especially in masses. Composite bows are simply lighter/smaller, thus much easier to handle (and carry), and physically more efficient, thus basically shooting the arrows faster and with more energy, at the same drawweight. Longbows tend to be overhyped imo, since composite bows never really needed those absurd drawweigths (thinking of 160+ lbs), and a 100 lbs composite bow doesnt sound as frightening as 160 lbs, even if their performance is very roughly the same (i'm not exaclty sure how much of a difference there is for two bows having the same performance, but i'd imagine the 100 lbs composite bow being able to accomplish the same tasks than a 160 lbs longbow, even if the power might be slightly lower)
@QuantumHistorian The thing about the katana is that it permeates pop-culture. The longbow, not so much. The longbow vs crossbow arguments, for example, are mostly done by hobbyists of historical warfare, arms and armor. Katana, on the other hand, is familiar and popular with plenty of people who have little to no knowledge or interest in history.
@@QuantumHistorian Spot on, the main advantage for yew longbows is that it only takes a relatively skilled intermediate bowyer a few hours to turn a seasoned stave into a bow while complex composite recurve horn bows take even a very skilled bowyer days at best when accounting for glue drying and also the extra time it takes to make every part fit and pair perfectly in order for the glue to set. And material costs etc etc etc you could go on forever.
The katana has it's mysticism and iconic status because of how it was used in the edo period and what it represented during that time. After the battle of Sekigahara, Japan's long period of warring samurai clans came largely to an end, and large scale warfare became more and more rare as peace (or, well, peace relative to what had been the situation for the last 200 years until that point anyway) became the norm. As I assume many viewers of historical youtubers like Skallagrim will know, before firearms formed the bulk of an army, most soldiers would have been armed with either spears, bows (or early firearms) as their primary weapon. These were the backbones of large armies, not swords. Swords were primarily sidearms, or weapons for fighting in confined spaces, like urban environments or indoors. The samurai were more commonly depicted with bow on horseback, or with polearms prior to the edo period. During the peacetime of the edo period, when samurai fought, it was often on a much smaller scale to what had been before. Duels were somewhat common too, and the samurai wouldn't carry his polearm around to go about his day, he would always have his swords though. The katana gained a status during this time similar to the six guns of the old west which were used in a similar circumstance. Stories of lawmen battling it out with outlaw gunmen in the streets with their sixguns are iconic, and revolvers like the colt single action army gained a reputation, as did notable figures of the period, like Billy the Kid or Wild Bill Hickock (or to give an example from my country; Ned Kelly). The katana was the Japanese version of the sixgun, and the edo period was very different from the American frontier, but the culture of tense familial relations between powerful samurai factions led to small and often personal conflicts, many of these became iconic stories, and the katana was always their weapon of choice. It was this history and this period of use that gave the katana its iconic and mystified status, and it's also why the saber doesn't have the same status despite being a very similar weapon in many regards. Like how six guns became associated with the individual "hero" characters from stories of the old west, so did the katana become associated with the individuals who wielded them, the katana became an integral and personal part of their stories.
add to this the deliberate glorification of an idealized version of bushido promoted during Japan's expansionist imperial ambitions in the early 20th C.
I'm wondering if everything doesn't just come from status. In the edo period, the katana was the weapon Samuraï would defend their honor and title with, and when you know how much hierarchy is important in Japanese society (and even more back then), it would make sense that the "small people" would recognize it as particular, or even mystical. In other words, they were not defending their title against armed foes but against the pebble that could rebel if it was not emphasized enough who had the power and status. It's slightly the same in Europe (and in China too actually). We know footmen were mostly armed with polearms, but the sword, as a sign of nobility, is the one that remained in peoples minds. Now why is the katana so much iconic even nowadays in Japan, and not in China or Europe ? Well that's history again : Japan remained very closed to outside influence... it could be as simple as that. In China, Mao made sure the past was burried and forgotten, and Europe has gone through so many small but continuous transformations it simply has less passion for nostalgic sentiment than Japan. And for the civil war saber, again : the saber was not the weapon of nobility. I mean of course it was the weapon of higher ranked military personnel, but the status difference is nothing compared to how feudal nobility was compared to feudal peasantry (basically demi-god vs. less-than-human).
IMO Sabres didn't gain an air of mystery and wonder, because they were made in huge quantities as standard issue gear, in the era when professional national armies arose. Katanas had been made in large quantities, especially from the 1800s, but they are more regularly associated with hard and meticulous labour by master craftsmen, producing a blade to be used by the elite samurai warrior class. Even though there were high quality, artisanal sabres made, that is not what they are associated with in people's minds. Katanas have a mystical air in the same way that exceptional swords made in the Viking era do. They were made especially for talented warriors by long dead masters of a craft. *In people's imaginations* Just my two cents.
I think the biggest reason is that the quintessential American weapon is the revolver, the Colt single action is the iconic American weapon, but it's just not a fair comparison to swords for obvious reasons haha but you look at how revolvers are portrayed in media vs something like the 1911, it's basically the same as a katana vs guns, because reloading requires skill it's seen as being something only the best of the best use.
I think it's the lack of American history: it only began after guns were already ubiquitous. So yes, if there's a quintessential American sword it's gonna be a cavalry sword, but it was always still about guns first. All the other cultures had a legacy of swords or other weapons before guns came around. Really, I'd say the truly quintessential American "sword" is the rifle, isn't it?
Strange irony of things is that, cavalry sabers outperform katana on cutting people in half when used in mounted combat. They are specifically designed for the task and truth be told, aestethically speaking, i always found sabers just... awful looking. When you look at the sabers manufactured during american civil war then you will find quite many of them being just basic bent bars of metal, absolutely no art in them. They were designed for one purpose only, to kill people if need arises. Whats even ''funnier'' about that observation is that Japanese did the same with firearms near the end of WW2. Absolutely no art in them, just the basic parts to shoot americans with!
@@Will_Parker Funny enough, the 1911 is also a very romanticized pistol. Of course it’d be given how long it was used in military service and how it formed the basis for basically all common modern pistols.
@@rockmcdwayne1710 I wouldn't say there's NO art to them but yeah every saber I've held is SUPER top heavy, because they're not designed for the kind of combat that a well balanced sword is needed for
I think the Revolver is pretty solidly a contenter for the 'American Sword' im certain plenty of people know that legend about cowboys being able to shoot all six shots before the drop of a silver dollar, or the ideas of cowboy duels. Hell, Big Iron and all the cowboy films of the last century are proof of that. The legendary mythos of cowboy revolvers are probably less overblown than something like the Katana just due to the fact you can still get your hands on them and use them like they were back in the day, whereas swords in general are more niche.
yeah our sword is gun there are alot of mythical guns like the .50 cal deagal thats not a practicle gun any of the revolvers nowadays there only advantage is reliability yet there all so badass
@@JohnDoe-kh1mt whats not to believe the deagle is a monster handgun with high recoil and you dont get tske full advantage of the ammo because of the pistol length barrel as far as revolvers you csn get any of there cartrige sizes in a semi automatic with the same barrel length meaning its it has basicly the same balistics being a simpler design revolvers are easiet to stip and do a full mentainence on and they have almost no chance to jam or fail even with little attentionvhence the reliability
Kelly Nolen Just to clarify, the only advantage of revolvers is there's no ejection stove piping and they're good for comitting crimes. They do terrible once any dirt or blood or water gets on the surface and will jam or break.
In regards to katana being romanticized over other blades, I'd want to point out japanese media also portrays other swords as powerful. If a setting is European, chances are it will feature straight double-edged swords as viable (look at Zelda where the European-styled Master sword is presented as the ultimate blade). Hell, many works that feature both European and Japanese swords have the former be just as good, if not better than the other. Take Sword Art Online, for instance. Most of the main characters use straight, double-edged weapons while the katana user is the comic relief. Edit: I also should mention Dragon Ball. The most famous sword user is Future Trunks, who wielded a straight, double-edged blade. The katana user? A bumbling dude named Yajirobe. Sure, he cut off Vegeta's tail and cut through his armor, but that's nothing to Trunks literally butchering Frieza with style (even if his blade got chipped by the Androids, it had more to do with their durability and less with his weapon being junk). In summary, Japanese entertainment does portray other swords as good. It's just that they use katana more since it's the kind their respective warriors used.
@@DccAnh Depends on what you mean by "praising own culture". Do many westerners critique their cultures? Yes. After all, bad things have happened such as slavery. In fact, I'd argue all countries should not turn a blind eye to past misdeeds (such as other countries like Africa practicing the aforementioned misdeed). That being said, many westerners that critique still respect various aspects such as having a country where citizens could have a say in government as well as various historical figures who made a positive change like MLK Jr. For me personally, I look at both positives and negatives in everything. For instance, I acknowledge that the founding fathers of the u.s. weren't morally pure (which i dont feel like getting into as this is getting heavily political). Regardless, I still respect their intentions and see them as people trying to do what they think is right. In summary, it's a gray world out there.
@@cadethumann8605 "having a country where citizens could have a say in government" That's funny, I don't remember the slave ever have a say in how they were treated, and also if you actually delve deeper into western ( especially american ) democracy, you would realize that people's opinion doesn't actually matter, you can say stuff, but your words hold no weight. It's all just an illusion of freedom.
@@DccAnh OK, so, are you now implying that westerners are okay for not praising their culture? It's just that I got the impression that you were irritated about all these "sjws/woke/etc." for hating western culture.
All throught history in combat, anyone who either had the superior reach (longer weapons) or the capacity to close the gap (armor and shield) tended to be a beast in hand to hand. Because if the enemy cant hit you, or cant stop you from hitting them. Then you basically won.
In war only then yes. Duels however they pretty much function like Souls game pvp community where people would cry about advantageous weapons, because unskilled people would abuse it and win in almost every fight. If you bring a longer reach weapon like a spear for example, a sword-wielder opponent would call you unskilled, even if they are more capable than you as a fighter.
@@piotrkarp9562 It is actually very true. Romans struggled to beat Phalanx when confronted with similar numbers and even tactics. Again roman shields were superior to those of Phalanx, bigger shield that weighs less. Also formation was more flexible allowing tactical maneuvers to beat Phalanx by utilizing shields to close the gap and exploit low mobility of spears in close combat
Absolutely no, and very simplistic thinking. Leaving out experience and or mastery and or lack of ones chosen tool and technique, is a serious mistake. That said, yes, everything being equal, which rarely ever is, reach is important, but it guarantees squat.
@@sword-and-shield in a duel, maybe. On the battlefield, without external support, 100 peasants with spears with a month of training most of the times wipe the floor with 100 swordsmen with years of training.
The most legendary weapon of all has to be from Beowulf: the OG "tear your arm off and beat you to death with the bloody stump" guy with *Grendel's arm.*
My katana obsession as a teen is what led me down the rabbit hole of learning what steel qualities mean. What silly marketing terms like "Battle ready" really mean. And funnily enough, what led me down the road of HEMA and of course, your channel.
Oi ups homie you tube up Naginata Sword compared to Katana Gavin Erasmus oi it's a very rare Katana platform the blades width is wider but needs to be the same length of a Tachi Sword though.
@@comradekenobi6908 they're good but not as good as European medieval steel. Japanese techniques weren't as advanced and the continental piece of land japan sat upon had fairly impure iron requiring lots of extra work to get decent steel.
@@strellettes8511 They did pretty well with the little they had, though saying the longsword is superior to the katana is kind of unfair when you think about the quality of metal the two regions had. Make both swords with the same quality of steel and they're going to perform somewhat equally to each other (in different applications, of course, but I digress).
@@strellettes8511 Yes and no, historic Japanese steel was made of bloomery steel which naturally has more impurities especially considerring the amount of time it took to heat up the steel in bloomery furnaces. Bloomery furnaces existed in medieval Europe as well as in Japan. The very process of smelting iron in the ancient world is what caused impurities in the steel. What's more important in a blade is having just the right amount of carbon content for a good and hardenable piece(s) of steel and impurities in the metal just adds extra time that's spent in the forging process. Here's a link to Shadiversity where he mentions bloomery furnaces in his casting an iron sword video in case I misremembered something or you'd like more info: th-cam.com/video/2jP39uY3KQw/w-d-xo.html
The sabre also earned it's cult status, however, not in the Western but rather in the Eastern European regions. In Hungary, even when rapiers started to become popular in the West, the sabre stayed as the most popular sword to carry. Most of the better known hungarian dueling techniques developed with a sabre in mind.
cult status yes, but I am not aware of any "magical sabers" in fiction or myth that e.g. could stop bullets etc. In other words, a saber is a piece of metal that can be used to great effect in the hands of a skilled fencer, whereas by contrast the katana "is part of the soul of the samurai / must draw blood before being resheathed /..." What I find funny is that in turn, through that kind of storytelling, historical persons become mystical figures (e.g. hanzo hattori transforms from a tokugawa retainer to a mystical swordsmith etc.)
@@doyouwanttogivemelekiss3097 That depends on the cultural background. In hungarian folktales, there are magical swords, and most of the time they are represented as sabers. But yeah, in Europe, we treated weapons differently. Not mystical objects but rather tools for killing/self defense.
1:02: "if at any time you see the blade sort of partially disappear don't be alarmed, it's intentional, it's the enchantment that allows it to phase through other blades so if the opponent tries to defend, you get them anyway." No wonder European swords won out over Japanese. Thanks for bringing that hidden detail skall.
Nah, that's just some european blades, some held different enchantments. An enchantment that prevented clotting was also fairly common, the wounds would never heal and you'd eventually bleed out from the slightest nick. Honestly, you see some similar stuff on katanas as well.
I have not tested these weapons with my hands so i only have visual information from the internet to learn from them. The first thing i see is that the european sword has long guards and a pommel which increases the possibility of parrying, as well as being more comfortable to thrust attacks. Katana is curved which makes it cut a little better, and since it does not have a pommel and long guards it is more agile (fast). Therefore, a claymore would be useful if you have no armor because it provides defensive sustain, problem is that in war the better you attack and/or the faster you are there are more chances that the enemy will be disabled and you will survive to avoid damage, in addition to that if you want to thrust, that's what pikes or spears are made for, a sword is an object whose sharp blade is long and is mainly designed to cut, not necessarily hit with the tip (except for rapier or fencing foil).So, katana is usually more famous than the european straight sword because it is more destructive. However the most devastating weapon in the world (sharp) is the axe.
My theory as to why the "katanas can cut through anything" comes from how they're depicted in fiction. When a person cuts through metal like it's butter in a story fro the west, it's because they have a supersword. When they do it in anime and manga it's because they're an expert swordsman. This makes the idea that *any* katana can perform supernatural feats of its wielded by an expert, while European swords need magic to do that.
I always blamed a good chunk of it on the movie Highlander. Many of the myths I hear mocking weebs and katanas are straight out of that film (cuts through anything, folded 1000s of times, etc.)
@@01taran The thing with Highlander is that Katana is a special case, since it was made a long time before Katana as we know it were first created. It's very lightly implied in the film, but nobody would be remiss to think that specific sword also has some magical properties.
I believe that the skill of the warrior and the determination.of that warrior is more important than the weapons they use. The Chinese 29th Big Chopping Sword. Brigade armed with C96 Mauser pistols and the Chinese Big Chopping Sword was more than.a match.for the Imperial Japanese Army. The mythical Katana often were broken by the big, simple Chinese Sword. During the age of the sword in Europe and the Middle East ,there were schools of fighting with all edged weapons. During this period , the swordsman of Europe and the Middle East were equal to the swordsman of Japan. All swords tend to take second place to spears and pikes.
I feel like many of the legends and tales of "superior uber swords that cut through anything" comes from late bronze age/early iron age times, where someone with an iron sword completely obliterates the blades of their enemies. In some cases even meteorite steel that is quite literally a "gift from the gods sent from the heavens" And then obviously the ninja craze of the 70s, where everything japanese was exotic and superior.
During my childhood every Saturday morning I would go to an Aikido dojo, I had no intentions to learn to fight or anything like that as I was far to young to really comprehend what martial arts actually were. Anyway, one of the instructors at the Aikido school also trained in Katori Shinto Ryu, and one Saturday morning, he gave a demonstration using his Katana of a kata of Katori. That was my first experience of a Katana outside TV and Video games, it left an impression on me not only the 'wow' factor, but under those strict class rules you respected it as there is almost religious ceremony about it, bowing to it and so on. Such exists in many Japanese Martial Arts. During my teen years, I was very much in the 'Katana Rules' group, until I tried western fencing, where I came up against foil, sabre and importantly, Rapier.. I learnt very quickly how not only do we have a rich culture of swords and fencing in the west but how I could respect both. To the point where heated debate between the two was almost amusing.
I'm laughing at your point about the rapier. A couple of days ago I thought I would spar with a highly competent rapierist (Italian school) with my sabre. It did not go well for me...
Yeah, I think the HEMA/Fencing community in the west, while growing, still has nowhwere near the recognision and understanding of something like Kendo in Japan. The popculture presence that asian martial arts in general has is more prevelent than western arts, but awareness is growing.
Oi ups homie you tube up Naginata Sword compared to Katana Gavin Erasmus homie it's very rare though the blades width is wider but needs to be the same length of a Tachi Sword.
@Jake Folk Martial Arts Journey-- need I say more? ;) I was 7 years old at the time, I had no intention of wanting to learn to fight, I just wanted to get out and make friends at the weekend.
I think for the US the Bowie knife is probably the closest thing to a cultural blade. It got it's start rather early in the pioneer era and stayed strong through the Civil War and into the Western era. It was frequently paired then with the guns that have been and still are heavily romanticized, that being the Colt Army and the Winchester Model 1894. Those guns were critical to the expansion of the US and therefore made a massive mark on the culture. Heh, revolvers in general stayed in the mind of the public well into the 70's as tons of police departments primarily used revolvers then. The next gun and knife combo was the Ka-Bar and the 1911, WWII had quite the impact on life, thought I think the Colt Single Action Army still has more cultural sway with all the westerns that were and are made. Oh, and General Patton. Still carried a Colt Single Action Army and was considered to have fought the last gunfighter battle with said Colt. So when it comes to cultural blades, we don't really have the shiny cool ones. Some cutlasses, sabres, and the like but nothing with a legend attached. They're mostly functional or just don't seem too special. So you either are attracted to the mystical blade of Japan or one of the many European creations with my own interest being in the claymore. It sounded quite cool, but not I've got a proper Bowie knife and a revolver so I ended up going to Old West/Civil War. Still might look into a cutlass, US Navy still has one as part of the dress uniform of the CPOs. Anyway, random geek out moment over. Cool video, I liked it. Got me to have a bit of fun with this goofy comment and think about things. Have a great day.
In Hollywood the swashbuckler films romanticized swords (usually small sword based fencing foils) in films like the assorted Robin Hood, Three Musketeers and pirate films over the years. In fairness they usually set these films in historical European cultures rather than American but Zorro was set in California.
@@BakaEngel If you disregard certain cultural appropriation issues, sure. I think there's a native american culture or two that have a better claim to tomahawks being their "cultural blade".
The most interesting thing about both your videos is that they showcase the purpose of each swords design philosophy. I don't personally think one *can* be better than the other because each was made in a different environment for a specific purpose. Medieval swords were made to be versatile, deal with thicker armor by bashing or stabbing through gaps. Fights were potentially longer, so the guard helps a lot as well. Katanas were made with very little of that in mind. Japan had significantly less iron and thus armor was rarely even comparable, so a sword that cuts flesh extremely well is better than an all-rounder.
Medieval longswords were also used often in duels with both opponents wearing little or no armor. Some techniques were changed up for this, others were still utilized. It doesn't mean they weren't just as deadly to armored vs unarmored, either technique or blade geometry.
@@brendanmatthews8236duels made up 0.0000000001% of medieval combat, so it was of utmost importance, that all medieval weapons were also good enough in a duel.
So I think, in the US, a saber is general reserved for military people, like a marine with high honors. But the US seems to have more fascination with its knives than its swords. (I.e the Bowie knife and ka-bar)
I was gonna comment something similar. I still have a cavalry saber from an old family member. But I’ve seen and had so many knives. My wife has her Bowie “cooking knife” that she uses for everything.
I just figured the revolver took the place of a sword in US mythos, with the way cowboys are portrayed and how they more or less take the place of samurai or knights in the US.
In the US, fighting knives and pistols are probably the best parallel to what a katana was in Edo period Japan; the sidearm you'd have on hand when it hits the fan and what saves your life.
A lot of people who grew up with anime love Katanas, and that's totally cool, but from my experience, I grew up with Peter Jackson's LOTR, and that really got me into longswords, in the same sense.
I got into European swords because I grew up with The Legend of Zelda; it got me interested in swords and medieval fantasy and all that stuff. Perhaps there's a bit of irony there in that I grew up with a piece of media made in Japan that got me interested in European swords rather than katanas.
Ironic because a lot of older animes actually prominently featured western styled fantasy swords, armor and apparel. Katanas were kinda only a ninja anime thing and didn't really start sparking in popularity until the later 2000s. Not to mention that before the 90s, it was more a cyberpunk thing with anime so swords weren't that popular back then.
@@GoodwillWright Not really, Western-styled fantasy swords only really became popular in anime with the introduction of Dungeons & Dragons to Japan in the mid-80s which gave rise to Japanese fantasy novels like Record of Lodoss War and Japanese fantasy games like Dragon Quest (via Wizardry). There were obviously also other influences like Conan the Barbarian given the prominence of barbarian warriors and bikini armor in early Japanese fantasy but it all happened at the same time during the mid-80s and led to a common early Japanese fantasy culture. Iconic samurai anime like Dororo to Hyakkimaru or even iconic samurai in modern times like Goemon Ishikawa XIII from Lupin III predate this development and so does iconic ninja anime like Ninja Hattori-kun. Meanwhile, the fantasy genre only really became prominent in anime in the 90s at which point you also have popular samurai anime like Rurouni Kenshin. If anything, fantasy anime only became really popular in the late 2000s with early isekai series like Zero no Tsukaima and the subsequent isekai boom. I don't think cyberpunk was that popular before the 90s with the exception of classics like Akira. Mecha anime was obviously the most popular genre and I guess some have European-inspired swords like the Mazinger Blade but that's obviously more sci-fi than fantasy and then you also have mecha anime with samurai-inspired designs like the RX-78-2 Gundam with its beam sabers (though that's arguably just lightsabers).
If America had a cultural equivalent to the katana, I'd say it's the Colt Single-Action Army rather than a sword. They're both symbolic of a long-gone time seen as core to their respective cultures that people are nostalgic for, and instantly evoke the image. For Japan, it's the pre-Meiji era. For America, it's the wild frontier. And both of them have their properties exaggerated in pop culture in similar ways. "Katanas can slice through buildings", "The Colt can hit a fly's wings without kiIIing it", etc. etc.
It's because we've romanticized firearms first and foremost. Bowie knives being a key exception. What do people talk about in the revolutionary war? The "American Rifleman", and how they were superior to the English Brown Bess muskets. Samuel Colt invented the first effective percussion revolvers. Eventually making the Single Action Army, which is recognizable by nearly anyone with the slightest knowledge of firearms. Heck, WWII the Garand - the best self loading rifle to start the war. Granted it got eclipsed by the STG44's larger mag cap of intermediate rounds. The M16/M4/AR-15 and AR-18 platforms are basically the starting point for nearly every major rifle that's not an AK variant. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but as time has gone on, more rifles are basically moving to one of the two platforms as a point. All of that to say, the vast majority of conflict that has happened on American soil (with European participants), has happened after the invention of the firearms. Bladed weapons were always a backup or secondary item. Bowie knives got extra credit, because they are a useful survival/combat knife on the frontier. Big enough to baton wood, or break down a deer. But small enough to use for kitchen needs. Really an American Messer.
@@SlavicCelery This. Our culture was birthed in the era when every soldier had a rifle, and swords were reserved for cavalry and (some) officers, who both also used firearms as well. Guns are our swords, our spears. That said, in the country, folks love their knives. Doesn't even have to be a Bowie.
@@SlavicCelery I would even say specific guns are now romanticized in our culture. The Colt SAA, the Winchester 1873, the Kentucky Long Rifle, the 1911, the M1 Garand. These firearms have a status in American culture that is borderline mythology. Tales of heroic deeds on both the battlefield and the frontier. Then there is the mythology surrounding marksmen and gunslingers themselves. Where Japan has Miyamoto Musashi and the katana, America has James Butler "Wild Bill" Hickok and his Colt 1851 Navy revolvers. Europe has Johannes Liechtenauer and his medieval fencing techniques America has Jeff Cooper and The Modern Technique of the Pistol. Whether we in America like it or not, firearms, the skill of using them, and the people associated with all of that, are a part of this nation's culture and it really seems to have filled the same cultural void that swords did in other older cultures.
When he talked about the length it also reminded me of romans. The short gladius was useless if not used with a shield. But with the ability to close in with a shield its far better to have a short, mobile and effective weapon over a long one. The Zulu had the same idea and made their shields larger and their spears shorter
@The Crazy Amateur Runner the weird thing is that, japan just did not had shields. They had some clunky wooden boards shields at some point, but they never developed there past that
@@affegpus4195 Those were mostly static shields, in a similar way to pavise or mantlet (or something in between). They did used shields in Yamato period, before change big changes in society, economy and military tactics. Yet, I found two illustrations depicting square bucklers being used in later periods i.pinimg.com/originals/32/86/b0/3286b0611a6486382fa701397acb287c.jpg i.pinimg.com/originals/52/ff/fc/52fffcbc2c7ea5ecaa3fe8354032a09f.jpg
@@affegpus4195 You can use biased adjectives like 'clunky' to discredit shields all you like, but most shields of the day are made of wood. Ironically, if they were made of metal, they weould be far more 'clunky'
The interesting thing is that the wide and straight blade of the gladius suggests a good cutting and bad stabbing sword, but the legions used it primarily for stabbing from shield walls.
@@affegpus4195 it's just simply not true that shields weren't used in Japan. In fact tate and tedate shields were used in Japan just as long and just as widely spread as in Europe. However samurai tended not to use them, being primarily horse archers, even so there was use of pistol and shield from horseback by samurai in the edo period. And these shields weren't just clunky wooden boards. They had quite a variety of shields, using wood, iron/steel and bamboo among other things.
I think that one reason why the saber doesn't have the same mystique than older medieval weapons such as the longsword and the katana is simply because by the 18th century, sabers were often mass produced tools with standardised or near standardised patterns which left much less room for putting the artisan own mark in its making. So, when you wield a saber, you feel like fighting with a fairly generic sword for its time while a longsword or katana feels like fighting with that unique sword made specifically for you by a talented swordsmith with his own style and personal touch. That helps creating a legendary status around the weapon.
I'd say it's also related to the wielders. Knights and samurai cut far more romantic/dramatic figures than, say, American Union soldiers or British sailors. Even musketeers (if you'll pardon me from bringing rapiers and their ilk into the discussion), while romanticized, don't exude nearly the same sense of awe as the first two. So among sword enthusiasts you're obviously going to get a hearty appreciation for the saber, when it comes to the average person they're not gonna have anything "badass" to tie the sword to. The closest would be pirates, but they're more associated with cutlasses or hanger swords (are hanger swords a type of saber? I've been told they're not, but I'm ignorant on the subject), plus they're more about being rogues and rapscallions than they are about being badasses. The funny thing being that during the height of their power samurai didn't favor the use of the katana, and I'm pretty sure knights didn't favor the use of the long sword. I know samurai originally preferred using bows from horseback, and once they ran out of arrows would pull out the tachi (a precursor to the katana). But the samurai most people are familiar with (the one of the 16th century) would have preferred the yari (lance-esque spear) both when on foot and on horseback. The katana would have only been pulled out when the yari was no longer an option (when battle got too close quarters, or if they lost their yari). Things like naginata (glaives), nodachi (very long katana, up to six feet) or even tetsubo (big-ass club/mace) would have been used before the katana. It just wasn't a very effective weapon against armored opponents. The katana became more associated with the samurai during the 250 year Edo period (starting at the beginning of the 17th century), as it was a time of peace and samurai rarely had need to put on armor, and carrying a spear around would have been impractical. As peace time isn't exactly great for warriors, and because laws prevented samurai from pursuing other careers (peace or not, losing all of your warriors wouldn't be good for their government), the Bushido code was created to give them a sense of purpose, and their swords were considered a representation of their warrior spirit. The reality is most samurai of the time were glorified clerks and administrators, and most of them weren't actually very good at fighting. They were *expected* to train in martial arts, but reality is often far divorced from the ideal. Incidentally, if anybody is interested in a film about that time period of the samurai I highly recommend "Twilight Samurai". A very good look into the realities of the time period. It has some incredible action sequences, but it's not an action film. I like to call it the "Real Last Samurai". Anyways, I've completely lost the thread of the conversation XD To anyone that read this all, I appreciate your indulging me :)
There is one American blade that could be considered iconic in that regard and that would be the Bowie Knife which was more of an Artisan made knife built for fighting and cutting. It was a very popular knife used here in the South during The War Between The States and was a very feared weapon of the field. I'd argue that they are as Iconic as sabers but they are just widely forgotten about.
@@dogwoodhillbilly That's a good one, you're definitely on point here. Though I reckon the Bowie knife has a little more recognition than the saber due to legends like Davey Crockett and his ilk.
If the US were to have any culturally praised sword, I would've imagined George Washington's "Battle Saber" from the Smithsonian to take that role. It's a striking design (actually would like to get your opinions on it Skall) for the most mysticized American.
That's just a single ornate saber, not an entire class of weapon like Longsword and Katana. Firearms are to American culture what blades are to others, the most iconic being probably the Colt single action revolver.
We arguably do have one blade that I believe should be culturally praised but it is widely forgotten about and that is the Bowie Knife. During the days of The War Between The States, it was a very feared weapon on the field that was made by actual artisans and blacksmiths of the day who made it to be a true fighting/cutting weapon. Bowie Knives were not mass produced showpieces and were more better suited for battle. I know it's not a longsword but it certainly was a feared blade.
Skal is so ancient that he didnt even stop by "Otaku" era but right back into the Japanophile Era (thats early days of mainstream internet back when chatrooms were the hottest thing.)
I can already feel the numbness of my fingers from the scratch card of my dial-up ISP. At least forums and boards still exist today, even the oldest threads still exist.
I remember liking Japan before I even was into anime. One of my big interests was Japanese history, and I even held a presentation on Japanese History in High School, with focus on the Meji Restoration. I actually mocked anime at first, when someone showed me Naruto. Then I later tried watching some and got into it. The whole mocking of people liking Japanese culture feels a bit new, like maybe from around 2010. After checking it out, it seems it comes from 4chan around early mid 2000s. Can't have been spread much until 2010s at least. Might have been in certain spaces, as forums were the places people gathered at those times, outside of image boards like 4chan. I feel like the whole "weeaboo" thing started as a reaction to cultural insecurity, as anime spread a lot during the 2000s and was no longer as niche. The fact that it originated from 4chan lends a lot of credence to this theory in my opinion, as 4chan often was filled with people trying to go against the grain and people who felt like the western fantasy and CRPGs got displaced by overinterest in samurai, ninja and anime. That latter part is what I think about regarding cultural insecurity as Japanese swords had been a staple since the 80s, and with interest in historical European martial arts increasing, leading people to push back against the overhyping of the Katana in media. Overall it feels like the internet will turn things to the extreme for some groups of people, leading to the proliferation of "weeaboo", as various sociocultural changes happened these last 2 decades. Remember that JRPG vs WRPG has been a thing since the end of the 90s, with some really polarized and toxic debates.
@@gamestory2834 it's funny how you think the weeb thing comes from "cultural insecurity" of USAns and not insecurity of weebs which made them susceptible to trolling lmao Also, weeb imageboards go as far as 2005 and earlier, and they were already being called pedophiles back then.
@@gamestory2834 Oh 4chins was a anime website from the start and calling each other weeaboos was more of a culture thing with a grain of irony and affection. Original Weeaboos were obnoxious people so obsessed with Japan and their Civil Culture that they were the Furries of Ye Old Interwebs. In 2010~ish term weeb was mainly directed at someone that watched Anime instead of "normal movies" which was weird back in the day cause you were supposed to watch action movies from hollywood. A Weeb was a shut in Neet locked in his room and playing World of Warcraft, eating junk/fast food and watching Anime 24/7. After SAO made its Boom the term Weeaboo and Weeb kinda lost its insult cause it was not uncommon to meet other anime fans outside of internet anymore and people realized that its not just about weird tentacles and girls in miniskirts getting groped (which was already out of fashion since this is a1980-1990s thing).
Otaku was already (mis)used in the 90s, at least in Spain. I was reading mangas, watching anime and related magazines in the first half of the 90s here and the word for anyone into that sort of thing was already otaku, even there was a section in the most famous videogame magazine at the time calles "Otaku manga", which was a section about it more focused on games (I remember learning about KoF mangas and manwhas in that magazine)
Honestly, I like both weapons each having their use, like all weapons. But I’ll be blunt in saying that the one Skall is clearly flexing in the video is really cool too. Very simple, yet effective in what it’s designed to do, which is cut foes to ribbons. I really find the whole katana vs longsword argument to be silly and pointless, due to both being good swords with their own strengths.
Totally agreed. As Skall flat-out said, there's so many parameters it's ridiculous, and all they needed to change the reach gap was... a longer katana. I do wish the budget to mid-range European-style makers would bring their game up, to do the job properly. I don't feel that asking for a mid-range European sword that just does it right, simplistically is too much to ask. Either way, I wouldn't put a preference on either one. It's just an argument that doesn't need to exist. Debate, sure, but not argument. And why not share techniques, et cetera instead of just mindless argument?
Fun fact: the guy at 2:34 is for Madoka Magica, and there are literally no katanas in the show. But there is actually a swordsman character - Sayaka, who uses european sword. And as ironically as it can get for this channel, she was owned in every single fight by other character (Kyouko) wielding a spear-like weapon. :D
@@PEARLSTOTHEPLAYERS I spent a few years living in Japan and for some reason or another I don't remember I fell asleep one night with the tv on and woke to what I later learned was an episode of that show playing. I just remember in a sleep fog thinking (sorry for spoilers for a rather old show) "did that cute magical girl just get decapitated and eaten?' It was kind of traumatizing and I had no idea what it was or why.
On the topic of US swords, the examples shown are all basically copied from Europe. France most of all. It's hard to point to any design changes that came from the US, rather than being imported a little while after the change became common in Europe. That probably explains why those swords never felt American in a cultural sense. If there is an American bladed weapon, it's undoubtedly the *bowie knife* .
That and revolutionary/civil war era swords are generally just seen as tools that soldiers happened to have rather than some glorious weapon in and of themselves. They're just sidearms. The only real prominence for them would maybe have been in the cavalry, but US cavalry was never really romanticized that much in my experience. It's guns that ended up getting all the glory and mythology attributed to them, especially as the main weapon of a lone gunman or notable cowboy-archetype.
@@kilerog Being able to finish your enemy rightly from half a mile away with your modern pomel launcher is hard to argue with. America is to young of a country so they had better weapons.
You bring up a key issue with Cerberusarm's discussion that I really appreciate: (1) The length of the swords. Not all longswords were 36" long, and not all "katana" were uchigatana. Throughout the history of Japan, katana varied in length - the preferred length shifted back and forth over hundreds of years. So an objective comparison of the weapons should have had both swords sporting the same blade length (within reason, let's say ~1in / 2.54cm). I love this response video; Skall, I feel like you prove your expertise and wisdom here.
Excalibur is the first sword I thought of before you said it. I also thought of the Sabre as the American sword before you said it. One of my ancestors was a general for the north in the civil war, one of my cousins still has his sword. I still have the oil painting of that guy, but I'd much rather have his sword TBH.
A general's saber... That's quite a treasure. I have my ancestor's M1862 Light Cavalry Saber he carried during the Civil War, it was manufactured by Ames Manufacturing of Chicopee, Massachusetts and had been inspected by A.D. King, who was a US ordnance inspector for the weapons.
@@mercury2157 It's less than it sounds. It tended to involve Chinese guerillas without firearms and supply troops of the Japanese army which as 'inferiors' tended to be forced conscripts from Korea or China because the Japanese delegated less attractive and less glorious jobs to people they regarded as 'inferior'. Some pretty gruesome stuff as well, because after the horrors the Japanese unleashed on them, some outraged Chinese farmers weren't going to care where you were from or whether you loved the war or had to be dragged from your home by the Japanese. There's photos of POWs being put in wooden cages and simply being left to die while passersby amused themselves looking at the captive Japanese, or 'Japanese'.
Something that gets overlooked all too often is the raw material people started with: In Europe, pattern welding was abandoned (except for decorative uses) once more and better iron ore deposits had become accessible and metallurgy had likewise improved, allowing to make larger pieces of steel with distinct characteristics in different parts. In Japan, they largely had to work with iron sands, which puts significant limitations on how to proceed. The katana certainly was a masterpiece: making a sword of that size from that type of raw material is exceptional. But that doesn't say anything about its qualities vis-a-vis other swords from other areas of the world.
the reason the katana is able to stand on equal ground to western swords is because of the design and how almost magical the forging process brought out the absolute best from the materials. the japanese managed to make swords of equal quality to that of the standard western sword with worse material. otherwise, you are right, it would not be much of a discussion
@@rosscoe3044 “of equal quality” is not accurate. The best Japanese alloys were inferior to even a typical European sword. The annealing and folding only helps to “shine a turd”. If the two swords clashed, the katana would look like aluminum foil afterwards, which many tests have shown. Against human flesh, yes both work. Saying equal quality is ridiculous.
@@FilmFlam-8008 and yet still many more tests were done that show the katana stands up perfectly well to western swords in terms of quality. also, for “cutting” people, the katana is better. they were swords with two different fighting styles in two different areas of the world. comparing them directly against one another is ludicrous, like was said in the video, it’s like comparing coke and pepsi. someone says this one tastes bad, someone says this one is healthier, another says this one is more sugar, etc. it’s never going to get anywhere, so just accept the conclusions from both videos and move along; that they were different but similar tools used in different parts of the world for slightly different things
@@rosscoe3044 nah, the highest quality katana is objectively worse than the highest quality longsword. The material is simply worse, you can apply the best manufacture process in the world and it still will be worse. The only "advantage" the katana has is better cutting power but that has nothing to do with the metal and everything to do with the shape (which also existed in Europe in the falchion or saber for example), also not really an advantage per se because you lose one edge, more like a sidegrade. If you tasked a very skilled European blacksmith to make you a sword in the shape of a katana but with European techniques and steel it would have been almost undoubtedly better than the Japanese one..
I like all swords from all cultures, maybe not equally, but it just seems like a human constant that you want to make your knives longer for fighting in pretty much any culture that developes knives (and yes, even stone knives, as evidenced by the pre-conquistador Aztec swords which are really beautiful wooden 'paddles' with obsidian shards applied to them as blade edges)
i used to teach sword fighting back in the days for english civil war/medievil reanactors for over 15 yrs an i got to say you covered it really well and have to agree with you both. Both the swords and fighting styles have there own advantages and disadvantages. Is one better than the other no there just a different devlopment of the same thing. And neither can cut through concrete or steel girders like the films show us. My favorite Sword is a 42 inch cavalry swept hilt rapier for speed / length / weight/ and flexability it ticks all the boxes
I was confused the 1st time someone called me a weeb, I picked a Japanese martial art too I didn't get what they meant either I just learnt to fight, no anime, weird outfits or mystic stuff. I'm British and only got into HEMA about a decade ago, I prefer my longsword to my katana for a few reasons, the reach, pointwork, halfswording and the guard just work well with my grapple/throw-centric martial art. Sparred with both, against both and that's just my preference 🙂
i took an interest in japanese swordsmanship such as kendo and iaido because of Sekiro and ghost of tsushima and my buddies kept calling me a weeb saying i watch too much anime even tho i only watch like 2 or 3. I only took interest because it looked pretty cool and i wanted to learn something like that😭 what i hate most abt it is cuz they think katanas and japanese swordsmanship are all anime and movies as if they werent part of history💀
Man, I love both of these swords with all of my nerdy heart, but I kind of want to see either of them compared to the Scottish claymore. It is my all-time favorite medieval/ancient weapon. Fun fact, it is also one of if not THE largest swords actually used in battle.
@@swordzanderson5352 no ,DAO refers to specifically one blade sword , Jian refers to two blades sword , and knife are usually small blade sword such as dagger
Yeah, that's a badass sword there. I still like the katana since that's what I trained with in Japan and it just 'feels' right to me, but the Messer is an awesome sword.
@@Laneous14 I mean honestly this whole debate can be summed up by that sword. A large knife is a large knife! At the end of the day, what do they do? They all cut things. Done. No knife that was made for practical purposes is bad at cutting/ doing its job, and neither is a large knife, or “grossmesser”/ sword.
@Laneous14 ... what's so terrific about facts? 2000 years ago the world was flat as a fact. Today it's spherical as a fact. Back then Osiris being the all-seeing mangod was a fact, today it's absolutely recognised as a myth [Fact.] Facts are about as certain as your feelings around them bro. Don't let them brainwash you!
@@DailyCorvid the belief that the earth was flat actually is much older than that. It was before the European city states existed when people were still largely nomadic that humans believed that en masse. It was the very early Greeks that sought to prove that the earth was not in fact flat and they did, easily. The Chinese also did the same thing. If I was to give the flat Earth a date as to when it was a common belief it would be before 2000 BC.
It's mostly a 'PR' issue I think. The Katana is so integrally linked to the Japanese Samurai that you cannot imagine one without the other. There's this air about it which comes from the seemingly universal design that all Samurai adopted because it was so perfect and amazing. The 10,000 folded nippol steel handtwisted and forged by a 500 year old master swordsmith in the mountains, etc etc. Of course that's not the truth, they used many designs and types of weapons throughout history. But in pop culture it feels like Samurai used one singe design for all of their history. Whereas in European history every period has it's own design associated with it. In classical times the Greek khopis and Roman Gladius. The Viking and Saxon era swords, the medieval bastard sword, the rapier, all the way to the nineteenth century sabre. Honestly I think it's just the ignorance of Japanese history that mysticetes and romanises it.
I 100% agree with you on this. The fact that there is far less known about the katana compared to the European weapons really adds that "mystifying unknown" aspect. People are naturally drawn to mysteries, evident in the ABSOLUTELY INSANE amount of legend and myth around the world.
@@parengthonycastillo4272 very true. A sword is: -much harder and takes longer to make -takes months of training to be used effectively -far more expensive But the sword wins in coolness ngl
I enjoy these good natured back and forths. It's not something that should be forced, but when the opportunity arises I think they make for great content.
Excellent video Skal, one of your best ! This was masterfully put together with excellent commentary, respectful and insightful critique, great use of clips from previous videos, movie references/clips and historical references/photos that added value as well as enjoyment...you're a stella content maker ! Since watching Shogun (the Richard Chamberlain mini-series) at age 10 I've always had a love for all things Japanese...including ofc the katana :) Funnily enough I think it was watching your channel (and Shad's) that cured me of my "belief" that the Katana was "the greatest sword ever made" ;) and watching you two over the years talking about slashing vs. thrusting, armoured vs non-armoured, weight vs. maneuverability, single-edged vs double edged, the benefits of cross-guards, reach, technique etc. kinda forced me to re-evaluate things and give long swords (and other blades) their due. All that said, katanas are still amazing weapons and very cool...but so is your Kriegmesser 🙂👍 [Edited to correct spelling mistake]
"I've trained for years to overcome the reach disadvantage!" "While you've been doing that I've been training as well and am now a better all around fighter." "Well damn."
That sounds so much like a discussion on a GURPS character building: "I've bought up 'dealing with longer reach weapons' technique, so my character can more easily deal with opponents with longer weapons!" "DUDE you could have spent those points on raising your sword skill, it would both raise your hit chances and your defences!"
So, as someone that loves sword making and armed combat, it always makes me laugh to hear the arguments that the more volatile members of our community make. Both you and Cerberusarms make excellent points, and actually add to the conversation, so I thank you for that. Personally, I tend to have a weird choice in weapons, as I've always been a bit more fond of the larger form of the katana, as I'm a bigger individual. If, however, I were to be in combat with a shield or tower-shield, then I'm going with either a mace or a shorter straight blade, such as a gladius or a spatha. Call it what you will, but I really think the whole comparison thing gets overdone by the loud-mouths, and those of us who are reasonable tend to get shouted down, hence why I'm so happy that both of you are so level headed in your videos. It's really refreshing. :)
No, I think the Coke vs. Pepsi argument still fits fine. They really are slightly different flavors of the same core concept. Personally I have an aesthetic preference for single-edged weapons, so for the longest time I leaned much more towards the katana, but I've since been exposed to many different swords (and other weapons) which fit that pretty comparably, each with their own mechanical pros and cons. I will never not like bladed tonfa though, no matter how impractical they might be. (Loved your video on the tonfa sword by the way!)
Fun video, Skall. When it comes down to it, neither is overall superior. Both have advantages and disadvantages and context matters immensely. 13:47 I actually had the pleasure to train with these guys in Tokyo for a night. They were about as nice as you can get, taking great care in properly teaching me how to use their techniques in spite of the language barrier (they spoke some English and I spoke some Japanese, but you can imagine there's some jargon in certain martial disciplines). Also, I had nearly a decade in formal kenjutsu training but their style and techniques were very novel to me. Their focus is on speed drawing (my style had a lot of drawing, too, but not the same emphasis) and they get pretty fancy with it. If you're interested, look up Tenshin-ryu Hyoho. In my opinion, their style is about as Hiten-mitsurugi (Rurouni Kenshin) as it gets.
I'm a fan of both D and Skallagrim so it was nice to see you guys reacting to each other's video's so positively. Spears are clearly better though so forget knights or samurai. Spartans for the win.
I do feel like a clean swing with a great sword such as a zweihander or a claymore or a katana, actually a number of things could disable a spear. It is an interesting difference because both a spear and any form of longer blade could easily disable the other with a well placed strike though I do agree that the spear is a lot more versatile it still lacks the overall power of a blade. This is however something of a useless dispute though still fun to think about.
As an American, I'd say it depends upon when you grew up as to which sword was more romanticized. Sure, if you are younger you grew up with anime and hearing about the glory of the katana, but we older Americans (I'm in my early 50s) grew up with stories about Robin Hood, King Arthur, the Vikings, the Romans, etc., as well as LotR, Narnia, Conan, and so on that featured western swords, both real and fantastical, of various types. We'd all seen a "samurai" sword at one point or another, but they weren't nearly as familiar to us as western stuff.
I often times think about a video I watched a few years ago talking about longsword vs rapier. The starting point they had was "A sword is a sword". The differences we use to identify types of swords are all post-hoc, and historically you would see things like long swords with basket hilts or rapier blades with a cross guard. Which one is better? Depends on what you're looking for and what you can get.
I watched it too! Similar to "super robot x real robot" in Japanese cartoons, they all blended into each other often, because there was no genre separation for the most part of it.
It does, and why it works. You aren't meant to have defensive stances with it, like, at all. All attacks must be dodged, so you are constantly on the move. Pros: many aren't used to a frantic bastard whizzing around you in circles. Cons: you can't defend unless you can do a pommel guard which is stupidly hard and you are get pretty tired pretty freaking quick.
@@swordzanderson5352 One of the things that makes the new ring of power show so painful to watch is it's actually really *****ing* difficult to dodge a sword and never parry. If you are within the blade range you are not going to hop or duck it sorry, that's why thousands of years we used shields even if you have something to parry with it's still dangerous.
@@VioletDeathRei I do a lot of fencing and can confirm that dodging, ducking, jumping on the opponents blade and teleporting is exactly how we usually avoid all attacks. The hard part is to not accidentally wake up.
@@VioletDeathRei Absolutely agreed. Even without swords and just using martial arts, dodging is f***ing hard, unless you absolute outclass your opponent in terms of speed and reflexes. To use this sword effectively, one would basically have to use some form of shield that wouldn't hinder 2-handed use. A buckler, perhaps. Or a forearm shield. Eh, the main advantage of this blade is that no one expects a blade to just phase through, so more often than not, if you get the first swing, then they have to parry, which means slicey dicey, he's gonna be pretty dead.
this is like half of the reason why i think this comparison is dumb as hell. katana is more like a sabre in design and use than any long sword! from mounted combat to duels to military use the katana is just a sabre with no knuckle guard and a longer handle
@@FEDsquared Yup, and on horseback the reach disadvantage will be even more detrimental. And what is even more important, katanas are not flexible, they bend. I can't stress how easy it is to accidentally hit something or someone with the flat during a melee from horseback.
As a German I wanna thank you for bringing up the "Kriegsmesser" (war knife). It's one of my favourite weapons that somehow rarely gets recognized because it always stands in the shodow of the more famous classical longsword. There are also "lange Messer" (long knives) that are fairly similar. Also, I appreciate your recognition of the various and advanced European fencing and sword fighting schools and styles. Sadly we Germans ourselves do a pretty bad job in conserving and promoting this cultural heritage (at least if you compare it to the Japanese people). And yeah, there are several mystical swords in European myths, like Gram (Balmung in the Nibelungen saga), the sword of Siegfried or Mimung the sword of the mystical blacksmith Wieland. Yet I think in Europe we never imagined these swords to have souls of their own like they did in Japan. They were merely really powerful tools that wielded some mystical power.
It's a good name because "Krieg" means war and if you go to war with one you're going to turn your opponent into a mess. ...Dangit. The joke works better with the Grossmesser because you can just say "It turns your opponent into a gross mess".
for the info in france the term for those messer is braquemard. wich for most people these days is just a slang word to talk about a gentleman sausage.
Sabres never gained the mysticism because they were just a sidearm, or decoration later... The musket that they carried along with the sabre was what gained the mysticism instead. America is gun culture; katanas didn't come until later as part of the Japanese culture trade. Remember, not only did we get katanas in Western culture - we also got Japanese cowboys.
your nation hasn't existed for long enough to have something directly comparable with the Japanese in mysticism, it's time and fable that create that mysticism. I see lots of people here saying the revolver was the American equivalent but samurai purchased from S&W and carried their revolvers quite a bit too
6:21 The problem with sabers is nothing to do with the blades themselves, but the time period of their rise in popularity. Gun technology was improving and by the 1800s, swords just couldn't compete. They were still a symbol of status back in the day, but now not even that... If you ran into battle sword first, it would only be remarkable if you lived to tell the tale.
It's also important to remember that during the period in which american sabers saw development, america's national identity was rapidly shifting away from the classical colonial yankee identity to the more contemporary multicultural identity. in a world where cultures outside of the accepted norm are prioritized and idealized(sometimes even fetishized and demonized but that's another discussion) a classical european style saber holds a whole lot less value than lets say, a native american tomahawk. that's all conjecture of course, just figured i'd give my two cents.
The American saber is still actually a thing, but it is solely traditional and used for decorative purposes. I think it is important to note that only at the position of captain are you granted a saber as you are moving up rank (I may be wrong with that, but I am pretty sure it is captain), as such there are only so many made and was a symbol of rank rather than skill. Also they were not really used even when they were more viable, people carried them if they had to get into melee, but captains are not often on the front lines and duals were done with pistols rather than swords.
@@DailyCorvid yeah I've seen his videos. And hickok45 and demolition ranch and garand thumb and kentucky ballistics. I just really liked skall's unique style as well.
Heard something crazier than running into battle with a saber in the age of gunpowder, going into battle during WW2 carrying a Scottish broadsword longbow and at times playing the pipes.
@@giggy7935 lol that's my point there so unrealistic yet reach is still massively important in more realistic fights it would matter even more cuase u can't just roll through attacks with a hammer bigger then u are
I fought with a short Messer and Buckler against a relatively new person with a longsword recently. I managed to close and get hits a bunch of times, then I stopped and suggested that they try to thrust more whenever they had their point near me and to try to follow-up rather than stop after a single cut. It got *a lot* harder after that, and they landed a lot more on me than I did on them from then on. Reach advantage is big!
An extremely thoughtful and educational video on a timeless subject. There's no easy comparison there's so many variables that you clearly emphasise. I love your channel for the fairness you show.
Glad to see a fellow fan of the S&W M&P. I use one as my personal duty weapon. Used to have a CZ but it wasn't on the company's list of approved weapons. My main reason for liking the M&P is that it has an optional manual safety.
@@turtlesaredifferentfromtor6745 Absolutely untrue. People say naginata stopped being used, stopped using nodachi, stopped using cavalry because of guns and spears, they stopped using bows when guns came around, stopped using tachi because of the mongol invasions etc. and it kinda drives me nuts. Sure, the simpler katana was certainly more popular in that period. But if you were a cavalryman or maybe a somewhat higher ranking infantry samurai you probably wore a tachi. The katana we envision today (two handed sword with 60-70 centimeter blade, black and white hilt wrap) was also not standard. A lot of katana were almost longsword length, some were one handed, some were straight, some were very curved etc. they varied a lot. But generally, they were more robust. They were also not as fancily mounted (if you were the average ashigaru/lower-mid ranking samurai) you probably had a big iron/rawhide disc as a tsuba and simple leather wrapped handle. Katana kinda get in the way of spears when worn edge up so they were often worn edge down (although unlike the tachi style mountings, the scabbard is thrust into the sash or belt).
@@turtlesaredifferentfromtor6745 not true. From period art we see that tachi were still popular through the sengoku period and were only truly overtaken by katana at the start of the edo period.
I think the biggest difference always comes down to one thing, armor design. If European style full plate got introduced into Japan and heavily used during the early stages of Katana development, I think the sword designs would change significantly. Not that Japanese style body armor was entirely ineffective, but just designed differently for unique goals.
Samurai already transitioned from being mounted archers to shock cavalry by sengoku jidai period. Toward the end of the period, Samurai armour have already incorporated breastplate into their armour to counter arquebus becoming more prevalent. Even if plate harness was known in Japan, the katana we know of today came from the Edo period. By then, samurai were required by law to wear a katana and wakazashi pair at all times. Katanas from that period was actually being cut down a few inches to be more convenient to wear on the waist.
@@martytu20 Yup, the yari (lance-like spear) was the favored weapon when the samurai's armor was at its peak, and it was apparently pretty effective at punching through their metal armor (and hitting the vulnerable gaps). The katana was simply never meant to be used against armored opponents, and neither was the longsword frankly.
@@kenjutsukata1o1 Neither weapons were intended to be frontline weapons, but imo the longsword wins out as a sidearm because it CAN be (or at least is more effective than a katana) used against armored opponents. Like, sure, you aren't going to be slicing or stabbing through steel plate, but the design allows you to effectively grapple with the opponent's weapons and disarm them or can be used to more accurately target joints with half-swording, or can be used for the beloved death stroke. For the environment it was used in though, it wasn't as bad for the katana, but again, that was because japanese armor was less sophisticated than western. To their credit, we are talking about armor so expensive that having a set of it made you someone of status who was more valuable to take alive than to kill even if you were defeated, and against someone in gambeson a katana probably wouldn't do so poorly, BUT, for a direct comparison, I do believe the versatility of a longsword makes them better against armored opponents generally.
I think maybe the Katana reaching legendary status in the west could also be to do with stories told after WW2. I remember someone telling some story about a Katana cutting a Bren gun in half, or something daft like that. I remember before learning about Samurai I first saw Katana's on Japanese officers in movies.
As long as you're not crying a river. Of blood. Let alone two of them. Rivers, you could say. (Never liked it for PVE, but I see how that weapon art would earn it nicknames like Rivers of Cringe)
In case you are no longer active on that game, you may be pleased to know it has been nerfed. It can still catch you sleeping, but is no longer stupid. Moonveil on the other hand...
I think so much of the katanas popularity stemmed from the aesthetic. It arguably looks cooler. I think the real question is which is more practical in an urban setting. Maybe katanas are more nimble in thar regards - like the quick draw advantage, for example. If anyone hasn't seen it, I highly recommend the movie Twilight Samurai. In it, a samurai is chosen for his skill with a shorter sword, because an indoor fight was expected.
This is my favorite Skal vid that he's put out in a while! Love the analysis of both blades, and could not agree more with the conclusion. User matters as much or more than the weapon
I did watch that video. It did seem balanced, but a bit weird about a few points. But given the general unfamiliarity of longswords, vs just trying 1 example, I gave it a pass on those few small details. One thing I think gets missed a lot is when all these weapons were around. In the 14thC when longswords were becoming a serious thing, the Tachi was in use in Japan. The Katana really came about during the 15thC. And that leads to what I think coloured the rise of the mythologies. During WWII, Japanese soldiers (or officers anyway) often had Katanas. By WWII just about everyone had ditched the military sword in Europe and US. They were around in WWI for officers, but mostly dropped out as snipers would just headshot the idiot with the sabre. So the west at this point was mostly used to sports fencing weapons. While japan (and to a degree China etc) were still carrying cut-focused hand weapons. And yes, I'd pick a katana any day over a sports epee. Or a small sword, or even a cavalry sabre. The melee weapons that even made it to the 20thC in Europe were specialised things. A foot duel katana v cavalry sabre throws out the purpose of the sabre. But even before then, the rifle had become the main weapon. And the pistol the sidearm. Sabres, smallswords, etc had become symbolic more than anything. While the Katana was the same beast (for the most part) as they used in the 1600s. So, vague hypothesis (might be a strong term, seeing I have no way of testing) I'm putting forward is that Europeans (and European colonies) had lost touch with what swords and edged weapons could do. Their examples were pissy symbolic things or old rusty things for the main part. And then they encounter a culture who kept the sword very much alive. And see that well made sharp bits of steel can be dangerous. And think it must be those particular well made sharp bits of steel.
I have not tested these weapons with my hands so i only have visual information from the internet to learn from them. The first thing i see is that the european sword has long guards and a pommel which increases the possibility of parrying, as well as being more comfortable to thrust attacks. Katana is curved which makes it cut a little better, and since it does not have a pommel and long guards it is more agile (fast). Therefore, a claymore would be useful if you have no armor because it provides defensive sustain, problem is that in war the better you attack and/or the faster you are there are more chances that the enemy will be disabled and you will survive to avoid damage, in addition to that if you want to thrust, that's what pikes or spears are made for, a sword is an object whose sharp blade is long and is mainly designed to cut, not necessarily hit with the tip (except for rapier or fencing foil).So, katana is usually more famous than the european straight sword because it is more destructive. However the most devastating weapon in the world (sharp) is the axe.
@@BaithNa guessing you don’t actually watch his show then? Tim is a raging centrist at this point, he’s got a ways to go before he’s a “hardcore republican”. Especially given his thoughts on fiscal policy.
@@BaithNa I moved from a super left wing state/ city to a super right wing state/ city and my quality of life improved immensely. I can no longer argue with the results. The modern day R build better communities.
Good stuff. Weapons serve different tactical and strategic scenarios. They are similar, to the point that two of the same length would be nearly identical. When people have similar-enough equipment, victory is determined by skill level and battlefield flexibility. If I had to pick a difference out, it would be how katanas are designed more for maximum speed. That speaks to a “weapon matching a technique matching a tactic to accomplish a strategic objective”. The longsword seems more intentionally geared for flexibility for dealing with enemies in any kind of armor or general battlefield combat situation. But neither is better. Better depends on what people are trying to accomplish and how they plan to achieve that objective. Whatever weapon is most effective for a scenario is the best.
Skall, I have been very critical of your reviews in the past, but this response video showed a different side of your ability to be objective and jovial. It genuinely made me see you in a different light and realize I have misjudged you. I recognize my error and offer sincere apologies. I am now a subscriber and looking forward to learning more about blades.
Not that there universally agreed upon nomenclature for swords. I read "langes Messer" (literally long knife) in old texts. And in German you have different cases. This changes the word. E.g. singular would be "ein großes Messer" or Großmesser. See the "s". Plural would be "große Messer" or (unchanged) Großmesser.
100% on the reach thing. I've used a short hand axe a lot, especially against medium and long hand axes, also against seax and sword. It takes a lot of practice and failed attempts to get even half decent at fighting a longer weapon. Only against a seax did I find it more of a balanced match. But once you do get in range without being hit, a short weapon becomes a bit easier to manoeuvre and strike.
@@mr.strugglesnuggle6668 Bullshit. Even if youre fighting someone really good at using the weapon that they're using, if you can close that gap quickly and effectively its over.
@@mr.strugglesnuggle6668 Yes because its much easier to train a guy with a spear than it is to train him with an axe. But when you have a 1v1 where one guy is completely trained with the short axe its much more comparable. I take it critical thinking isnt your strong suit?
@@SnowMexicann So not only don't you know absolutely nothing about historical European martial arts but you're a rude pseudo-intellectual too. Brilliant. And here I thought that Canadians were supposed to be polite and well educated. The real reason spears dominated the battlefield is not only the reach advantage but because a lot of people like farmers already were somewhat familiar with them due to a lifetime of using pitchforks and similar implements. Funny you'd bring up spears specifically though and not say, poleaxes, halberds or pikes since we're talking dueling but alright I guess. It's not like the practise was unique to the medieval time period after all. Anyway good luck getting close enough to a guy with the reach advantage who's at least just as skilled or better than you to hit him with an axe(why not an arming sword?) like I mentioned on my original comment. Spoilers: Life isn't a video game and it won't end well.
Now that you mentioned American sabers, could you make a video about sabers vs bayonets? Must have happened quite often in the 18th and 19th century but people don't seem to talk about it that much.
My experience with both is limited, but I have always been more partial to the longsword in terms of aesthetic. I feel like the oversaturation of katanas in media growing up made the longsword stand out more when it would show up. Oddly enough given the original source, I kind of have Power Rangers to thank for that growing up, because more often than not any sword was more longsword-esque in appearance than katana like. That and Devil May Cry later on, Rebellion is just really cool looking. In my limited experience using them, I tend towards the longsword because I suck with swords that have a smaller guard.
In America we don't have an iconic sword even though sabers were used they were from different countries The Bowie knife is more of the traditional legendary blade of America.
I agree there isn''t really a sword that defines America because of the time period that the country grew up in. America is more knife defined with the different style of knives that served throughout the founding, wild west etc etc that the knives were second hand items with our guns being the mainstay.
Technically true in that going around with a katana is more likely to get you into trouble for carrying a weapon than going around without any sword. But of course that's true of literally any sword.
I mean... NOW it is. But that's because it's archaic, and carrying a weapon gets you attention anywhere. Even in America you may get some looks if you're open carrying, even if it's something reasonable like a pistol. Funnily enough for most self defense, I'd probably want someone to have a melee weapon rather than something that can cause a bunch of collateral. But walking around with a big knife might actually be less socially acceptable than having a pistol. Our standards are silly.
@@turtlesaredifferentfromtor6745 I don't think i've ever seen anyone treating it like trash... All i see is over-glorification and near worship of it and the culture behind it. It's definitely the most overhyped sword and culture, entirely without equal. Although to be fair, nowadays it tends to be more "well at least it's not *worse* than a longsword, r-right guys...?" rather than outright praise for it, so maybe it's changing.
There's too many videos on this godforsaken subject and at this point, it's not even about katanas vs longsword. It's just people talking about their feelings on the subject of katanas vs longswords, with some obligatory remarks about reach or some tatami cutting thrown in, all in service of then coming to no conclusion. Because this subject is radioactive enough that no one probably wants to take a risk of picking a side, just stay neutral every time.
Im so glad you mentioned the draw cut of the katana. Most dont mention it at all. Thats where the katana Excels the most over other swords. Samurai would practice draw cuts way more than knights or Europeans would with a long sword. Also samurai would try to end an one on one battle with one single cut vs Europeans or knights would because of heavier armor and chain mail. Yes some samurai would wear chain mail but not nearly as much as a Knight. Knights armor was superior as well allowing them to take more strikes and blows vs samurai armor. They also had way different honor codes during battle. I always say a Samurai would win a one on one and knights would win an army vs army.
Go & look up kenjutsu & notice just how many cuts are aimed at the hand/fingers (highly effective, but not even close to 'ending with one single cut') Samurai armour weighed about the same as European armour as a percentage of bodyweight (the Japanese being much smaller, even more so than today). Both dealt with armour by going for gaps, usually with wrestling involved Their honour codes were basically 'win, be brave & do as you are told', they only got codified (& romanticised) much, much later
I feel like it's obvious. The katana has no pommel to unscrew and chuck at your foe's head, the longsword is clearly superior.
You fool! None can compare to the king of weapons, the mighty STICK!
End him rightly
@@florians9949 I have water which can turn your stick into mush, muahahah
@@florians9949 agreed
But... that means the WHOLE SWORD is a pommel...
If all discussions about Longswords and Katanas were like this one, we'd be a lot closer to the romanticised ideals of Knights and Samurai that won us all over as wide eyed children and made us come to apprechiate these weapons in the first place.
It wouldnt be the internet if stupid people weren't allowed to have a voice. Also the problem with weebs and nerds is that for people who seemingly love rpgs they can't seem to grasp the fact that some swords are used for one purpose and other swords for other purposes. You would use an axe to do a spear's job after all. The katana is amazing against what it was intended to fight but shit against things that it was NOT intended to fight.
Well said, I salute you!
@@bensweeney5878 I prefer long swords. You know like... swords that are long, designed to be used with two hands, used as a symbol of your caste and the trust placed in you by a superior. A sidegrade to a military long weapon or a ranged weapon. Something people associate with armed martial arts. You know, long swords.
Wait...
When England knighted a pirate, chivarly died in England.
See my series proving that the British Empire was NOT the biggest.
Idiots count the last grain of sand in Australia but say the Pacific Ocean (Spanish lake) doesn't count. Ridiculous.
@@scintillam_dei Who cares? Societies are tribes and patterns and treating it like a pissing match is for adult children.
Appreciate the response video! I value your opinion, so was good to hear. And you’re right, they’re more like Coke vs 7up rather than polar opposites. Cheers man!
- D
Keep up the good work man. Shame the comment section on your video devolved into blind katana hate tho.
Saw your original video before this one, and was expecting this. Cheers to both of you!
Thanks for inspiring me to make it. :)
@@Skallagrim im a big fan of the Albion Principe
and yet we wall know, the katana is superior: th-cam.com/video/lwQPJ1G2n5o/w-d-xo.html X)
Two mature sword enthusiast having a conversation about their favorite swords.
Shad: BACK SCABBARD!!
Shad trying his best to make the back scabbard practical.
@@annhentaiuser6658 he’s kinda succeeded though. Sure it has its cons (as does any other scabbard) but it’s the most practical way I’ve seen to wear a sword of that size
@@annhentaiuser6658 I mean he *did* make it mostly practical
I think shad would scream... STICK! 🌿
Shad is hilarious tho.
Both videos are balanced and fair. It's nice to see a more-or-less conversation rather than an outright pissing match.
"But *_STICK!!!_*
I love when he calls himself a disgusting little weeb. It's so delicious to hear.
ah yes, grown men conversation
wish we had more of that
@@smacdsmaccers To each, their own.
@@NieroshaiTheSable stick always win. :-)
A good comparison with the cultural legacy of the katana is probably the English late-medieval longbow. They're both decent weapons that played an important role in the arms&armour of their period, but have become mythologised to the point that there are an obscene amount of over exaggerations about both, and attitudes to them are (for some people) closely tied to feelings of superiority of one culture above others. This creates a backlash of people who are so fed up with the myths - and the mythmakers - that they then go to far and needlessly denigrate the weapons. All this makes anything approaching a rational discussion of the strengths, weaknesses, and historical impact of those weapons all but impossible.
Yeah, honestly. Don't get me wrong, english longbows are impressive and fearsome weapons. As an archer myself, I can't even fathom how people would shoot certain longbows up to 100lbs for an entire battle. However, that doesn't mean it is superior to other bows outright. In the end it depends on circumstance and the skill of the user and a dose of luck. As with all weapons
@@canadious6933 I was thinking more of the longbow vs crossbow and longbow vs armour arguments that people have on the internet.
Compared to other hand bows, the yew longbow is laughably primitive. It is Neolithic (if not Mesolithic) technology compared to the recurve and/or composite bows that existed in the early iron age: 1500 years before the Hundred Years War. Not to even bring Turkic or Chinese bows into the comparison. And yet, in the hands of skilled archer who was part of a professional, combined-force army, the longbow was remarkably effective. Just goes to show that, before the early modern period, technology had a minor impact on the battlefield compared to the social and human part of war. But that's a whole other debate!
@@QuantumHistorian I'm an archer myself (previouosly modern recurve, now composite bow) and i 100% agree. Comparing a longbow to a composite bow is like comparing a club to an intricately designed and balanced mace. Sure both can do the same job, but there is so much more technology benefiting and optimizing the composite bow. The only true advantage of a longbow is it being much cheaper and easier to produce, especially in masses. Composite bows are simply lighter/smaller, thus much easier to handle (and carry), and physically more efficient, thus basically shooting the arrows faster and with more energy, at the same drawweight. Longbows tend to be overhyped imo, since composite bows never really needed those absurd drawweigths (thinking of 160+ lbs), and a 100 lbs composite bow doesnt sound as frightening as 160 lbs, even if their performance is very roughly the same (i'm not exaclty sure how much of a difference there is for two bows having the same performance, but i'd imagine the 100 lbs composite bow being able to accomplish the same tasks than a 160 lbs longbow, even if the power might be slightly lower)
@QuantumHistorian
The thing about the katana is that it permeates pop-culture.
The longbow, not so much.
The longbow vs crossbow arguments, for example, are mostly done by hobbyists of historical warfare, arms and armor.
Katana, on the other hand, is familiar and popular with plenty of people who have little to no knowledge or interest in history.
@@QuantumHistorian Spot on, the main advantage for yew longbows is that it only takes a relatively skilled intermediate bowyer a few hours to turn a seasoned stave into a bow while complex composite recurve horn bows take even a very skilled bowyer days at best when accounting for glue drying and also the extra time it takes to make every part fit and pair perfectly in order for the glue to set.
And material costs etc etc etc you could go on forever.
The katana has it's mysticism and iconic status because of how it was used in the edo period and what it represented during that time. After the battle of Sekigahara, Japan's long period of warring samurai clans came largely to an end, and large scale warfare became more and more rare as peace (or, well, peace relative to what had been the situation for the last 200 years until that point anyway) became the norm. As I assume many viewers of historical youtubers like Skallagrim will know, before firearms formed the bulk of an army, most soldiers would have been armed with either spears, bows (or early firearms) as their primary weapon. These were the backbones of large armies, not swords. Swords were primarily sidearms, or weapons for fighting in confined spaces, like urban environments or indoors. The samurai were more commonly depicted with bow on horseback, or with polearms prior to the edo period.
During the peacetime of the edo period, when samurai fought, it was often on a much smaller scale to what had been before. Duels were somewhat common too, and the samurai wouldn't carry his polearm around to go about his day, he would always have his swords though.
The katana gained a status during this time similar to the six guns of the old west which were used in a similar circumstance. Stories of lawmen battling it out with outlaw gunmen in the streets with their sixguns are iconic, and revolvers like the colt single action army gained a reputation, as did notable figures of the period, like Billy the Kid or Wild Bill Hickock (or to give an example from my country; Ned Kelly). The katana was the Japanese version of the sixgun, and the edo period was very different from the American frontier, but the culture of tense familial relations between powerful samurai factions led to small and often personal conflicts, many of these became iconic stories, and the katana was always their weapon of choice.
It was this history and this period of use that gave the katana its iconic and mystified status, and it's also why the saber doesn't have the same status despite being a very similar weapon in many regards.
Like how six guns became associated with the individual "hero" characters from stories of the old west, so did the katana become associated with the individuals who wielded them, the katana became an integral and personal part of their stories.
So the TL;DR being that swords were the pistol of the melee world. Not the main workhorse of the military, but the tool that’s always on your hip.
hit the nail on the head with this one.
so katana vs longsword
is basically
six shooter vs magnum
add to this the deliberate glorification of an idealized version of bushido promoted during Japan's expansionist imperial ambitions in the early 20th C.
I'm wondering if everything doesn't just come from status. In the edo period, the katana was the weapon Samuraï would defend their honor and title with, and when you know how much hierarchy is important in Japanese society (and even more back then), it would make sense that the "small people" would recognize it as particular, or even mystical.
In other words, they were not defending their title against armed foes but against the pebble that could rebel if it was not emphasized enough who had the power and status.
It's slightly the same in Europe (and in China too actually). We know footmen were mostly armed with polearms, but the sword, as a sign of nobility, is the one that remained in peoples minds.
Now why is the katana so much iconic even nowadays in Japan, and not in China or Europe ? Well that's history again : Japan remained very closed to outside influence... it could be as simple as that.
In China, Mao made sure the past was burried and forgotten, and Europe has gone through so many small but continuous transformations it simply has less passion for nostalgic sentiment than Japan.
And for the civil war saber, again : the saber was not the weapon of nobility. I mean of course it was the weapon of higher ranked military personnel, but the status difference is nothing compared to how feudal nobility was compared to feudal peasantry (basically demi-god vs. less-than-human).
IMO Sabres didn't gain an air of mystery and wonder, because they were made in huge quantities as standard issue gear, in the era when professional national armies arose.
Katanas had been made in large quantities, especially from the 1800s, but they are more regularly associated with hard and meticulous labour by master craftsmen, producing a blade to be used by the elite samurai warrior class.
Even though there were high quality, artisanal sabres made, that is not what they are associated with in people's minds.
Katanas have a mystical air in the same way that exceptional swords made in the Viking era do.
They were made especially for talented warriors by long dead masters of a craft. *In people's imaginations*
Just my two cents.
I think the biggest reason is that the quintessential American weapon is the revolver, the Colt single action is the iconic American weapon, but it's just not a fair comparison to swords for obvious reasons haha but you look at how revolvers are portrayed in media vs something like the 1911, it's basically the same as a katana vs guns, because reloading requires skill it's seen as being something only the best of the best use.
I think it's the lack of American history: it only began after guns were already ubiquitous. So yes, if there's a quintessential American sword it's gonna be a cavalry sword, but it was always still about guns first.
All the other cultures had a legacy of swords or other weapons before guns came around.
Really, I'd say the truly quintessential American "sword" is the rifle, isn't it?
Strange irony of things is that, cavalry sabers outperform katana on cutting people in half when used in mounted combat. They are specifically designed for the task and truth be told, aestethically speaking, i always found sabers just... awful looking.
When you look at the sabers manufactured during american civil war then you will find quite many of them being just basic bent bars of metal, absolutely no art in them. They were designed for one purpose only, to kill people if need arises.
Whats even ''funnier'' about that observation is that Japanese did the same with firearms near the end of WW2. Absolutely no art in them, just the basic parts to shoot americans with!
@@Will_Parker Funny enough, the 1911 is also a very romanticized pistol. Of course it’d be given how long it was used in military service and how it formed the basis for basically all common modern pistols.
@@rockmcdwayne1710 I wouldn't say there's NO art to them but yeah every saber I've held is SUPER top heavy, because they're not designed for the kind of combat that a well balanced sword is needed for
The katana vs Longsword.. Which is best.. The SPEAR obviously!
Japanese or european spear?
All hail to mighty spear!!!!!
Katana for indoors guarding, Longsword for outdoors duelling...
* SPEAR IS FOR WAR! *
🐇🛡 But my money is on whoever carries The Holy Hand-Grenade.
@@Neochrono Yes
@@DailyCorvid "1...2...5!" "Three sir" "THREE!!!"
I think the Revolver is pretty solidly a contenter for the 'American Sword' im certain plenty of people know that legend about cowboys being able to shoot all six shots before the drop of a silver dollar, or the ideas of cowboy duels. Hell, Big Iron and all the cowboy films of the last century are proof of that. The legendary mythos of cowboy revolvers are probably less overblown than something like the Katana just due to the fact you can still get your hands on them and use them like they were back in the day, whereas swords in general are more niche.
yeah our sword is gun there are alot of mythical guns like the .50 cal deagal thats not a practicle gun
any of the revolvers nowadays there only advantage is reliability yet there all so badass
44 Magnum, 1873 Army Service Revolver.
Just firing that thing terrifies and awes me. The true American sword.
@@kellynolen498Unless you fix your spelling and grammar, I will not believe you. And even if you did, I still wouldn't. Shall we?
@@JohnDoe-kh1mt whats not to believe the deagle is a monster handgun with high recoil and you dont get tske full advantage of the ammo because of the pistol length barrel
as far as revolvers you csn get any of there cartrige sizes in a semi automatic with the same barrel length meaning its it has basicly the same balistics
being a simpler design revolvers are easiet to stip and do a full mentainence on and they have almost no chance to jam or fail even with little attentionvhence the reliability
Kelly Nolen
Just to clarify, the only advantage of revolvers is there's no ejection stove piping and they're good for comitting crimes.
They do terrible once any dirt or blood or water gets on the surface and will jam or break.
In regards to katana being romanticized over other blades, I'd want to point out japanese media also portrays other swords as powerful. If a setting is European, chances are it will feature straight double-edged swords as viable (look at Zelda where the European-styled Master sword is presented as the ultimate blade). Hell, many works that feature both European and Japanese swords have the former be just as good, if not better than the other. Take Sword Art Online, for instance. Most of the main characters use straight, double-edged weapons while the katana user is the comic relief.
Edit: I also should mention Dragon Ball. The most famous sword user is Future Trunks, who wielded a straight, double-edged blade. The katana user? A bumbling dude named Yajirobe. Sure, he cut off Vegeta's tail and cut through his armor, but that's nothing to Trunks literally butchering Frieza with style (even if his blade got chipped by the Androids, it had more to do with their durability and less with his weapon being junk).
In summary, Japanese entertainment does portray other swords as good. It's just that they use katana more since it's the kind their respective warriors used.
Fr, Excalibur in Fate series lore was literally used to beat back gods from outer space lmao
In short Japanese have always been praising their own culture while still respect other, a quality that is quite rare among westerners.
@@DccAnh Depends on what you mean by "praising own culture". Do many westerners critique their cultures? Yes. After all, bad things have happened such as slavery. In fact, I'd argue all countries should not turn a blind eye to past misdeeds (such as other countries like Africa practicing the aforementioned misdeed).
That being said, many westerners that critique still respect various aspects such as having a country where citizens could have a say in government as well as various historical figures who made a positive change like MLK Jr.
For me personally, I look at both positives and negatives in everything. For instance, I acknowledge that the founding fathers of the u.s. weren't morally pure (which i dont feel like getting into as this is getting heavily political). Regardless, I still respect their intentions and see them as people trying to do what they think is right.
In summary, it's a gray world out there.
@@cadethumann8605 "having a country where citizens could have a say in government" That's funny, I don't remember the slave ever have a say in how they were treated, and also if you actually delve deeper into western ( especially american ) democracy, you would realize that people's opinion doesn't actually matter, you can say stuff, but your words hold no weight. It's all just an illusion of freedom.
@@DccAnh OK, so, are you now implying that westerners are okay for not praising their culture? It's just that I got the impression that you were irritated about all these "sjws/woke/etc." for hating western culture.
All throught history in combat, anyone who either had the superior reach (longer weapons) or the capacity to close the gap (armor and shield) tended to be a beast in hand to hand. Because if the enemy cant hit you, or cant stop you from hitting them. Then you basically won.
In war only then yes. Duels however they pretty much function like Souls game pvp community where people would cry about advantageous weapons, because unskilled people would abuse it and win in almost every fight. If you bring a longer reach weapon like a spear for example, a sword-wielder opponent would call you unskilled, even if they are more capable than you as a fighter.
Not really. If that would be true Pyrrus and his phalanx would never fall to Romans.
@@piotrkarp9562 It is actually very true. Romans struggled to beat Phalanx when confronted with similar numbers and even tactics. Again roman shields were superior to those of Phalanx, bigger shield that weighs less. Also formation was more flexible allowing tactical maneuvers to beat Phalanx by utilizing shields to close the gap and exploit low mobility of spears in close combat
Absolutely no, and very simplistic thinking. Leaving out experience and or mastery and or lack of ones chosen tool and technique, is a serious mistake. That said, yes, everything being equal, which rarely ever is, reach is important, but it guarantees squat.
@@sword-and-shield in a duel, maybe. On the battlefield, without external support, 100 peasants with spears with a month of training most of the times wipe the floor with 100 swordsmen with years of training.
The most legendary weapon of all has to be from Beowulf: the OG "tear your arm off and beat you to death with the bloody stump" guy with *Grendel's arm.*
We had a role play of Beowulf last month
@@Heisenburger67 any method acting?
I
AM
BEOWULF
I did same thing in Gears of War lol
So, today we'll be comparing a katana versus a ripped off arm, which is better?
My katana obsession as a teen is what led me down the rabbit hole of learning what steel qualities mean. What silly marketing terms like "Battle ready" really mean.
And funnily enough, what led me down the road of HEMA and of course, your channel.
How good is the quality of Japanese swords?
Oi ups homie you tube up Naginata Sword compared to Katana Gavin Erasmus oi it's a very rare Katana platform the blades width is wider but needs to be the same length of a Tachi Sword though.
@@comradekenobi6908 they're good but not as good as European medieval steel. Japanese techniques weren't as advanced and the continental piece of land japan sat upon had fairly impure iron requiring lots of extra work to get decent steel.
@@strellettes8511 They did pretty well with the little they had, though saying the longsword is superior to the katana is kind of unfair when you think about the quality of metal the two regions had. Make both swords with the same quality of steel and they're going to perform somewhat equally to each other (in different applications, of course, but I digress).
@@strellettes8511 Yes and no, historic Japanese steel was made of bloomery steel which naturally has more impurities especially considerring the amount of time it took to heat up the steel in bloomery furnaces. Bloomery furnaces existed in medieval Europe as well as in Japan. The very process of smelting iron in the ancient world is what caused impurities in the steel. What's more important in a blade is having just the right amount of carbon content for a good and hardenable piece(s) of steel and impurities in the metal just adds extra time that's spent in the forging process.
Here's a link to Shadiversity where he mentions bloomery furnaces in his casting an iron sword video in case I misremembered something or you'd like more info:
th-cam.com/video/2jP39uY3KQw/w-d-xo.html
The sabre also earned it's cult status, however, not in the Western but rather in the Eastern European regions. In Hungary, even when rapiers started to become popular in the West, the sabre stayed as the most popular sword to carry. Most of the better known hungarian dueling techniques developed with a sabre in mind.
True story. Eastern Europe has a really rich tradition of sabres. Also on horseback - huszar style:)
Also, the Cutlass, IE Pirate Saber, that's a cult classic thanks to... well, Pirates of the Caribbean mostly.
cult status yes, but I am not aware of any "magical sabers" in fiction or myth that e.g. could stop bullets etc.
In other words, a saber is a piece of metal that can be used to great effect in the hands of a skilled fencer, whereas by contrast the katana "is part of the soul of the samurai / must draw blood before being resheathed /..."
What I find funny is that in turn, through that kind of storytelling, historical persons become mystical figures
(e.g. hanzo hattori transforms from a tokugawa retainer to a mystical swordsmith etc.)
@@doyouwanttogivemelekiss3097 That depends on the cultural background. In hungarian folktales, there are magical swords, and most of the time they are represented as sabers. But yeah, in Europe, we treated weapons differently. Not mystical objects but rather tools for killing/self defense.
@Szentinel Torony: same in Poland man.
1:02: "if at any time you see the blade sort of partially disappear don't be alarmed, it's intentional, it's the enchantment that allows it to phase through other blades so if the opponent tries to defend, you get them anyway."
No wonder European swords won out over Japanese. Thanks for bringing that hidden detail skall.
I completely missed that statement lol. Thx for pointing it out!
Nah, that's just some european blades, some held different enchantments. An enchantment that prevented clotting was also fairly common, the wounds would never heal and you'd eventually bleed out from the slightest nick.
Honestly, you see some similar stuff on katanas as well.
Oh... But, if it does, you are not doomed if you try to parry the Japanese blade, did you ?
i fucking died XD
I have not tested these weapons with my hands so i only have visual information from the internet to learn from them. The first thing i see is that the european sword has long guards and a pommel which increases the possibility of parrying, as well as being more comfortable to thrust attacks. Katana is curved which makes it cut a little better, and since it does not have a pommel and long guards it is more agile (fast). Therefore, a claymore would be useful if you have no armor because it provides defensive sustain, problem is that in war the better you attack and/or the faster you are there are more chances that the enemy will be disabled and you will survive to avoid damage, in addition to that if you want to thrust, that's what pikes or spears are made for, a sword is an object whose sharp blade is long and is mainly designed to cut, not necessarily hit with the tip (except for rapier or fencing foil).So, katana is usually more famous than the european straight sword because it is more destructive. However the most devastating weapon in the world (sharp) is the axe.
My theory as to why the "katanas can cut through anything" comes from how they're depicted in fiction.
When a person cuts through metal like it's butter in a story fro the west, it's because they have a supersword.
When they do it in anime and manga it's because they're an expert swordsman.
This makes the idea that *any* katana can perform supernatural feats of its wielded by an expert, while European swords need magic to do that.
never considered that
I always blamed a good chunk of it on the movie Highlander. Many of the myths I hear mocking weebs and katanas are straight out of that film (cuts through anything, folded 1000s of times, etc.)
@@01taran The thing with Highlander is that Katana is a special case, since it was made a long time before Katana as we know it were first created. It's very lightly implied in the film, but nobody would be remiss to think that specific sword also has some magical properties.
I believe that the skill of the warrior and the determination.of that warrior is more important than the weapons they use. The Chinese 29th Big Chopping Sword. Brigade armed with C96 Mauser pistols and the Chinese Big Chopping Sword was more than.a match.for the Imperial Japanese Army. The mythical Katana often were broken by the big, simple Chinese Sword. During the age of the sword in Europe and the Middle East ,there were schools of fighting with all edged weapons. During this period , the swordsman of Europe and the Middle East were equal to the swordsman of Japan. All swords tend to take second place to spears and pikes.
I feel like many of the legends and tales of "superior uber swords that cut through anything" comes from late bronze age/early iron age times, where someone with an iron sword completely obliterates the blades of their enemies. In some cases even meteorite steel that is quite literally a "gift from the gods sent from the heavens"
And then obviously the ninja craze of the 70s, where everything japanese was exotic and superior.
During my childhood every Saturday morning I would go to an Aikido dojo, I had no intentions to learn to fight or anything like that as I was far to young to really comprehend what martial arts actually were. Anyway, one of the instructors at the Aikido school also trained in Katori Shinto Ryu, and one Saturday morning, he gave a demonstration using his Katana of a kata of Katori. That was my first experience of a Katana outside TV and Video games, it left an impression on me not only the 'wow' factor, but under those strict class rules you respected it as there is almost religious ceremony about it, bowing to it and so on. Such exists in many Japanese Martial Arts. During my teen years, I was very much in the 'Katana Rules' group, until I tried western fencing, where I came up against foil, sabre and importantly, Rapier.. I learnt very quickly how not only do we have a rich culture of swords and fencing in the west but how I could respect both. To the point where heated debate between the two was almost amusing.
I'm laughing at your point about the rapier. A couple of days ago I thought I would spar with a highly competent rapierist (Italian school) with my sabre. It did not go well for me...
That was an equally interesting and cringe-worthy story, thanks for sharing that. May the blade always treat you well! 🤺 ⚔🤺
Yeah, I think the HEMA/Fencing community in the west, while growing, still has nowhwere near the recognision and understanding of something like Kendo in Japan. The popculture presence that asian martial arts in general has is more prevelent than western arts, but awareness is growing.
Oi ups homie you tube up Naginata Sword compared to Katana Gavin Erasmus homie it's very rare though the blades width is wider but needs to be the same length of a Tachi Sword.
@Jake Folk Martial Arts Journey-- need I say more? ;) I was 7 years old at the time, I had no intention of wanting to learn to fight, I just wanted to get out and make friends at the weekend.
I think for the US the Bowie knife is probably the closest thing to a cultural blade. It got it's start rather early in the pioneer era and stayed strong through the Civil War and into the Western era. It was frequently paired then with the guns that have been and still are heavily romanticized, that being the Colt Army and the Winchester Model 1894. Those guns were critical to the expansion of the US and therefore made a massive mark on the culture. Heh, revolvers in general stayed in the mind of the public well into the 70's as tons of police departments primarily used revolvers then. The next gun and knife combo was the Ka-Bar and the 1911, WWII had quite the impact on life, thought I think the Colt Single Action Army still has more cultural sway with all the westerns that were and are made. Oh, and General Patton. Still carried a Colt Single Action Army and was considered to have fought the last gunfighter battle with said Colt. So when it comes to cultural blades, we don't really have the shiny cool ones. Some cutlasses, sabres, and the like but nothing with a legend attached. They're mostly functional or just don't seem too special. So you either are attracted to the mystical blade of Japan or one of the many European creations with my own interest being in the claymore. It sounded quite cool, but not I've got a proper Bowie knife and a revolver so I ended up going to Old West/Civil War. Still might look into a cutlass, US Navy still has one as part of the dress uniform of the CPOs.
Anyway, random geek out moment over. Cool video, I liked it. Got me to have a bit of fun with this goofy comment and think about things. Have a great day.
it 100 percent is.
Yeah America definitely has more romanticism of guns than swords n such
In Hollywood the swashbuckler films romanticized swords (usually small sword based fencing foils) in films like the assorted Robin Hood, Three Musketeers and pirate films over the years. In fairness they usually set these films in historical European cultures rather than American but Zorro was set in California.
I would agree with the bowie, but also add the tomahawk.
@@BakaEngel If you disregard certain cultural appropriation issues, sure. I think there's a native american culture or two that have a better claim to tomahawks being their "cultural blade".
The most interesting thing about both your videos is that they showcase the purpose of each swords design philosophy. I don't personally think one *can* be better than the other because each was made in a different environment for a specific purpose. Medieval swords were made to be versatile, deal with thicker armor by bashing or stabbing through gaps. Fights were potentially longer, so the guard helps a lot as well. Katanas were made with very little of that in mind. Japan had significantly less iron and thus armor was rarely even comparable, so a sword that cuts flesh extremely well is better than an all-rounder.
Medieval longswords were also used often in duels with both opponents wearing little or no armor. Some techniques were changed up for this, others were still utilized.
It doesn't mean they weren't just as deadly to armored vs unarmored, either technique or blade geometry.
@@brendanmatthews8236duels made up 0.0000000001% of medieval combat, so it was of utmost importance, that all medieval weapons were also good enough in a duel.
So I think, in the US, a saber is general reserved for military people, like a marine with high honors. But the US seems to have more fascination with its knives than its swords. (I.e the Bowie knife and ka-bar)
I was gonna comment something similar. I still have a cavalry saber from an old family member. But I’ve seen and had so many knives. My wife has her Bowie “cooking knife” that she uses for everything.
I just figured the revolver took the place of a sword in US mythos, with the way cowboys are portrayed and how they more or less take the place of samurai or knights in the US.
@@BeardedUnited bingo
Love me a good bowie.
In the US, fighting knives and pistols are probably the best parallel to what a katana was in Edo period Japan; the sidearm you'd have on hand when it hits the fan and what saves your life.
A lot of people who grew up with anime love Katanas, and that's totally cool, but from my experience, I grew up with Peter Jackson's LOTR, and that really got me into longswords, in the same sense.
I got into European swords because I grew up with The Legend of Zelda; it got me interested in swords and medieval fantasy and all that stuff. Perhaps there's a bit of irony there in that I grew up with a piece of media made in Japan that got me interested in European swords rather than katanas.
Ironic because a lot of older animes actually prominently featured western styled fantasy swords, armor and apparel. Katanas were kinda only a ninja anime thing and didn't really start sparking in popularity until the later 2000s. Not to mention that before the 90s, it was more a cyberpunk thing with anime so swords weren't that popular back then.
@@matthewmuir8884 Everyone loves legend of Zelda, it's one of the great classics.
@@GoodwillWright Not really, Western-styled fantasy swords only really became popular in anime with the introduction of Dungeons & Dragons to Japan in the mid-80s which gave rise to Japanese fantasy novels like Record of Lodoss War and Japanese fantasy games like Dragon Quest (via Wizardry). There were obviously also other influences like Conan the Barbarian given the prominence of barbarian warriors and bikini armor in early Japanese fantasy but it all happened at the same time during the mid-80s and led to a common early Japanese fantasy culture.
Iconic samurai anime like Dororo to Hyakkimaru or even iconic samurai in modern times like Goemon Ishikawa XIII from Lupin III predate this development and so does iconic ninja anime like Ninja Hattori-kun. Meanwhile, the fantasy genre only really became prominent in anime in the 90s at which point you also have popular samurai anime like Rurouni Kenshin. If anything, fantasy anime only became really popular in the late 2000s with early isekai series like Zero no Tsukaima and the subsequent isekai boom.
I don't think cyberpunk was that popular before the 90s with the exception of classics like Akira. Mecha anime was obviously the most popular genre and I guess some have European-inspired swords like the Mazinger Blade but that's obviously more sci-fi than fantasy and then you also have mecha anime with samurai-inspired designs like the RX-78-2 Gundam with its beam sabers (though that's arguably just lightsabers).
"This enraged the Weebs, who punished him severely."
If America had a cultural equivalent to the katana, I'd say it's the Colt Single-Action Army rather than a sword.
They're both symbolic of a long-gone time seen as core to their respective cultures that people are nostalgic for, and instantly evoke the image. For Japan, it's the pre-Meiji era. For America, it's the wild frontier.
And both of them have their properties exaggerated in pop culture in similar ways. "Katanas can slice through buildings", "The Colt can hit a fly's wings without kiIIing it", etc. etc.
USA and mexico odes that to their wild wild west era.
Dont forget about the Winchester rifle
“This is the greatest handgun ever made. The Colt Single Action Army. Six bullets... More than enough to kill anything that moves.” - Revolver Ocelot
Would the sword equivalent be the cavalry sabre then?
@@TheWinjinCavalry saber was seen in a rather pragmatic fashion, and Americans never developed affection for it in the same way as for our guns.
I wonder if the reason the saber wasn’t really romanticized in the US is because we were too busy romanticizing the Bowie knife instead 😂
It's because we've romanticized firearms first and foremost. Bowie knives being a key exception. What do people talk about in the revolutionary war? The "American Rifleman", and how they were superior to the English Brown Bess muskets.
Samuel Colt invented the first effective percussion revolvers. Eventually making the Single Action Army, which is recognizable by nearly anyone with the slightest knowledge of firearms.
Heck, WWII the Garand - the best self loading rifle to start the war. Granted it got eclipsed by the STG44's larger mag cap of intermediate rounds.
The M16/M4/AR-15 and AR-18 platforms are basically the starting point for nearly every major rifle that's not an AK variant. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but as time has gone on, more rifles are basically moving to one of the two platforms as a point.
All of that to say, the vast majority of conflict that has happened on American soil (with European participants), has happened after the invention of the firearms. Bladed weapons were always a backup or secondary item. Bowie knives got extra credit, because they are a useful survival/combat knife on the frontier. Big enough to baton wood, or break down a deer. But small enough to use for kitchen needs. Really an American Messer.
@@SlavicCelery This. Our culture was birthed in the era when every soldier had a rifle, and swords were reserved for cavalry and (some) officers, who both also used firearms as well. Guns are our swords, our spears.
That said, in the country, folks love their knives. Doesn't even have to be a Bowie.
We a gun culture that's why
Cowboys inspired HItler. The US loves murderers.
@@SlavicCelery I would even say specific guns are now romanticized in our culture.
The Colt SAA, the Winchester 1873, the Kentucky Long Rifle, the 1911, the M1 Garand.
These firearms have a status in American culture that is borderline mythology. Tales of heroic deeds on both the battlefield and the frontier.
Then there is the mythology surrounding marksmen and gunslingers themselves. Where Japan has Miyamoto Musashi and the katana, America has James Butler "Wild Bill" Hickok and his Colt 1851 Navy revolvers. Europe has Johannes Liechtenauer and his medieval fencing techniques America has Jeff Cooper and The Modern Technique of the Pistol.
Whether we in America like it or not, firearms, the skill of using them, and the people associated with all of that, are a part of this nation's culture and it really seems to have filled the same cultural void that swords did in other older cultures.
When he talked about the length it also reminded me of romans. The short gladius was useless if not used with a shield. But with the ability to close in with a shield its far better to have a short, mobile and effective weapon over a long one. The Zulu had the same idea and made their shields larger and their spears shorter
@The Crazy Amateur Runner the weird thing is that, japan just did not had shields. They had some clunky wooden boards shields at some point, but they never developed there past that
@@affegpus4195
Those were mostly static shields, in a similar way to pavise or mantlet (or something in between). They did used shields in Yamato period, before change big changes in society, economy and military tactics. Yet, I found two illustrations depicting square bucklers being used in later periods
i.pinimg.com/originals/32/86/b0/3286b0611a6486382fa701397acb287c.jpg
i.pinimg.com/originals/52/ff/fc/52fffcbc2c7ea5ecaa3fe8354032a09f.jpg
@@affegpus4195 You can use biased adjectives like 'clunky' to discredit shields all you like, but most shields of the day are made of wood. Ironically, if they were made of metal, they weould be far more 'clunky'
The interesting thing is that the wide and straight blade of the gladius suggests a good cutting and bad stabbing sword, but the legions used it primarily for stabbing from shield walls.
@@affegpus4195 it's just simply not true that shields weren't used in Japan. In fact tate and tedate shields were used in Japan just as long and just as widely spread as in Europe. However samurai tended not to use them, being primarily horse archers, even so there was use of pistol and shield from horseback by samurai in the edo period. And these shields weren't just clunky wooden boards. They had quite a variety of shields, using wood, iron/steel and bamboo among other things.
America's national blade is the Bowie knife.
Continente, não um país 😑🙏
The Bowie knife is not the national blade of the United States it's national blade of Texas
I was for some reason expecting the answer to be gun.
Especially when they’re named David
What about the tomahawk?
I think that one reason why the saber doesn't have the same mystique than older medieval weapons such as the longsword and the katana is simply because by the 18th century, sabers were often mass produced tools with standardised or near standardised patterns which left much less room for putting the artisan own mark in its making. So, when you wield a saber, you feel like fighting with a fairly generic sword for its time while a longsword or katana feels like fighting with that unique sword made specifically for you by a talented swordsmith with his own style and personal touch. That helps creating a legendary status around the weapon.
truly disappointing that America never produced its own mythicized sword. Would have been cool
I'd say it's also related to the wielders. Knights and samurai cut far more romantic/dramatic figures than, say, American Union soldiers or British sailors. Even musketeers (if you'll pardon me from bringing rapiers and their ilk into the discussion), while romanticized, don't exude nearly the same sense of awe as the first two. So among sword enthusiasts you're obviously going to get a hearty appreciation for the saber, when it comes to the average person they're not gonna have anything "badass" to tie the sword to. The closest would be pirates, but they're more associated with cutlasses or hanger swords (are hanger swords a type of saber? I've been told they're not, but I'm ignorant on the subject), plus they're more about being rogues and rapscallions than they are about being badasses.
The funny thing being that during the height of their power samurai didn't favor the use of the katana, and I'm pretty sure knights didn't favor the use of the long sword. I know samurai originally preferred using bows from horseback, and once they ran out of arrows would pull out the tachi (a precursor to the katana). But the samurai most people are familiar with (the one of the 16th century) would have preferred the yari (lance-esque spear) both when on foot and on horseback. The katana would have only been pulled out when the yari was no longer an option (when battle got too close quarters, or if they lost their yari). Things like naginata (glaives), nodachi (very long katana, up to six feet) or even tetsubo (big-ass club/mace) would have been used before the katana. It just wasn't a very effective weapon against armored opponents.
The katana became more associated with the samurai during the 250 year Edo period (starting at the beginning of the 17th century), as it was a time of peace and samurai rarely had need to put on armor, and carrying a spear around would have been impractical. As peace time isn't exactly great for warriors, and because laws prevented samurai from pursuing other careers (peace or not, losing all of your warriors wouldn't be good for their government), the Bushido code was created to give them a sense of purpose, and their swords were considered a representation of their warrior spirit. The reality is most samurai of the time were glorified clerks and administrators, and most of them weren't actually very good at fighting. They were *expected* to train in martial arts, but reality is often far divorced from the ideal. Incidentally, if anybody is interested in a film about that time period of the samurai I highly recommend "Twilight Samurai". A very good look into the realities of the time period. It has some incredible action sequences, but it's not an action film. I like to call it the "Real Last Samurai".
Anyways, I've completely lost the thread of the conversation XD To anyone that read this all, I appreciate your indulging me :)
There is one American blade that could be considered iconic in that regard and that would be the Bowie Knife which was more of an Artisan made knife built for fighting and cutting. It was a very popular knife used here in the South during The War Between The States and was a very feared weapon of the field. I'd argue that they are as Iconic as sabers but they are just widely forgotten about.
@@dogwoodhillbilly That's a good one, you're definitely on point here. Though I reckon the Bowie knife has a little more recognition than the saber due to legends like Davey Crockett and his ilk.
@@alphanoodle1877 we did, it's called a Colt .45
If the US were to have any culturally praised sword, I would've imagined George Washington's "Battle Saber" from the Smithsonian to take that role. It's a striking design (actually would like to get your opinions on it Skall) for the most mysticized American.
That's just a single ornate saber, not an entire class of weapon like Longsword and Katana. Firearms are to American culture what blades are to others, the most iconic being probably the Colt single action revolver.
@@Monchegorx God made man, Samuel Colt made them equals
Yeah, why romanticize bladed weapons when we’ve had widely available, effective guns the entire history of U.S.
@@caiomansourcastilho4614 uhh ok
We arguably do have one blade that I believe should be culturally praised but it is widely forgotten about and that is the Bowie Knife. During the days of The War Between The States, it was a very feared weapon on the field that was made by actual artisans and blacksmiths of the day who made it to be a true fighting/cutting weapon. Bowie Knives were not mass produced showpieces and were more better suited for battle. I know it's not a longsword but it certainly was a feared blade.
Skal is so ancient that he didnt even stop by "Otaku" era but right back into the Japanophile Era (thats early days of mainstream internet back when chatrooms were the hottest thing.)
I can already feel the numbness of my fingers from the scratch card of my dial-up ISP.
At least forums and boards still exist today, even the oldest threads still exist.
I remember liking Japan before I even was into anime. One of my big interests was Japanese history, and I even held a presentation on Japanese History in High School, with focus on the Meji Restoration. I actually mocked anime at first, when someone showed me Naruto. Then I later tried watching some and got into it.
The whole mocking of people liking Japanese culture feels a bit new, like maybe from around 2010. After checking it out, it seems it comes from 4chan around early mid 2000s. Can't have been spread much until 2010s at least. Might have been in certain spaces, as forums were the places people gathered at those times, outside of image boards like 4chan.
I feel like the whole "weeaboo" thing started as a reaction to cultural insecurity, as anime spread a lot during the 2000s and was no longer as niche. The fact that it originated from 4chan lends a lot of credence to this theory in my opinion, as 4chan often was filled with people trying to go against the grain and people who felt like the western fantasy and CRPGs got displaced by overinterest in samurai, ninja and anime. That latter part is what I think about regarding cultural insecurity as Japanese swords had been a staple since the 80s, and with interest in historical European martial arts increasing, leading people to push back against the overhyping of the Katana in media. Overall it feels like the internet will turn things to the extreme for some groups of people, leading to the proliferation of "weeaboo", as various sociocultural changes happened these last 2 decades.
Remember that JRPG vs WRPG has been a thing since the end of the 90s, with some really polarized and toxic debates.
@@gamestory2834 it's funny how you think the weeb thing comes from "cultural insecurity" of USAns and not insecurity of weebs which made them susceptible to trolling lmao
Also, weeb imageboards go as far as 2005 and earlier, and they were already being called pedophiles back then.
@@gamestory2834 Oh 4chins was a anime website from the start and calling each other weeaboos was more of a culture thing with a grain of irony and affection.
Original Weeaboos were obnoxious people so obsessed with Japan and their Civil Culture that they were the Furries of Ye Old Interwebs.
In 2010~ish term weeb was mainly directed at someone that watched Anime instead of "normal movies" which was weird back in the day cause you were supposed to watch action movies from hollywood. A Weeb was a shut in Neet locked in his room and playing World of Warcraft, eating junk/fast food and watching Anime 24/7.
After SAO made its Boom the term Weeaboo and Weeb kinda lost its insult cause it was not uncommon to meet other anime fans outside of internet anymore and people realized that its not just about weird tentacles and girls in miniskirts getting groped (which was already out of fashion since this is a1980-1990s thing).
Otaku was already (mis)used in the 90s, at least in Spain. I was reading mangas, watching anime and related magazines in the first half of the 90s here and the word for anyone into that sort of thing was already otaku, even there was a section in the most famous videogame magazine at the time calles "Otaku manga", which was a section about it more focused on games (I remember learning about KoF mangas and manwhas in that magazine)
Honestly, I like both weapons each having their use, like all weapons. But I’ll be blunt in saying that the one Skall is clearly flexing in the video is really cool too. Very simple, yet effective in what it’s designed to do, which is cut foes to ribbons. I really find the whole katana vs longsword argument to be silly and pointless, due to both being good swords with their own strengths.
Yeah, both are basically just big knives
Totally agreed. As Skall flat-out said, there's so many parameters it's ridiculous, and all they needed to change the reach gap was... a longer katana. I do wish the budget to mid-range European-style makers would bring their game up, to do the job properly. I don't feel that asking for a mid-range European sword that just does it right, simplistically is too much to ask.
Either way, I wouldn't put a preference on either one. It's just an argument that doesn't need to exist. Debate, sure, but not argument. And why not share techniques, et cetera instead of just mindless argument?
@@Zhuge_Liang longer katana? Meet the Nodachi or the Nagamaki
@@cgalaxyjian3755 Indeed.
I think it's kinda silly to argue since spears where the most common weapon to use everywhere
Fun fact: the guy at 2:34 is for Madoka Magica, and there are literally no katanas in the show. But there is actually a swordsman character - Sayaka, who uses european sword. And as ironically as it can get for this channel, she was owned in every single fight by other character (Kyouko) wielding a spear-like weapon. :D
I love reliving trauma whenever hearing the words Madoka Magica uttered.
@@PEARLSTOTHEPLAYERS yes, sir.
@@PEARLSTOTHEPLAYERS sadass anime
@@PEARLSTOTHEPLAYERS I spent a few years living in Japan and for some reason or another I don't remember I fell asleep one night with the tv on and woke to what I later learned was an episode of that show playing. I just remember in a sleep fog thinking (sorry for spoilers for a rather old show) "did that cute magical girl just get decapitated and eaten?' It was kind of traumatizing and I had no idea what it was or why.
Madoka Magica .-.
Superb. As a romanian that loves both swords (and does a lot of fence sitting), that intro spoke directly to the innermost chambers of my heart.
You sir... should see a cardiologist immediately. One should not have _any_ "innermost" chambers, I think your heart is deformed bro :)
I misread that as "face sitting" x_x
The falx would beat both longsword and katana anyday. Romfaia also. Se știe.
On the topic of US swords, the examples shown are all basically copied from Europe. France most of all. It's hard to point to any design changes that came from the US, rather than being imported a little while after the change became common in Europe. That probably explains why those swords never felt American in a cultural sense. If there is an American bladed weapon, it's undoubtedly the *bowie knife* .
That and revolutionary/civil war era swords are generally just seen as tools that soldiers happened to have rather than some glorious weapon in and of themselves. They're just sidearms. The only real prominence for them would maybe have been in the cavalry, but US cavalry was never really romanticized that much in my experience.
It's guns that ended up getting all the glory and mythology attributed to them, especially as the main weapon of a lone gunman or notable cowboy-archetype.
Let's not forget the tomahawk
@@kilerog Being able to finish your enemy rightly from half a mile away with your modern pomel launcher is hard to argue with.
America is to young of a country so they had better weapons.
There are Machetes of Latin America, they are different to european billhooks.
@@VioletDeathRei : America is a continent, the USA is a country.
It's so good to see people still make reasonable response vids with mature insights. This is so awesome
I disagree. I want drama. Give me blood.
You bring up a key issue with Cerberusarm's discussion that I really appreciate:
(1) The length of the swords. Not all longswords were 36" long, and not all "katana" were uchigatana. Throughout the history of Japan, katana varied in length - the preferred length shifted back and forth over hundreds of years. So an objective comparison of the weapons should have had both swords sporting the same blade length (within reason, let's say ~1in / 2.54cm).
I love this response video; Skall, I feel like you prove your expertise and wisdom here.
Excalibur is the first sword I thought of before you said it. I also thought of the Sabre as the American sword before you said it. One of my ancestors was a general for the north in the civil war, one of my cousins still has his sword. I still have the oil painting of that guy, but I'd much rather have his sword TBH.
A general's saber... That's quite a treasure. I have my ancestor's M1862 Light Cavalry Saber he carried during the Civil War, it was manufactured by Ames Manufacturing of Chicopee, Massachusetts and had been inspected by A.D. King, who was a US ordnance inspector for the weapons.
Mad jack is the proof that the nut job with the sword is feared, even on the modern battlefield
And there's that Libyan rebel in his technical giving new rise to the "Drive me closer I want to hit them with my sword" meme.
Hell, on the Chinese theater of WWII, all out sword fights between Chinese forces and Japanese invaders were frequent.
@@DonVigaDeFierro that's actually metal as fuck... literally
@@mercury2157
It's less than it sounds. It tended to involve Chinese guerillas without firearms and supply troops of the Japanese army which as 'inferiors' tended to be forced conscripts from Korea or China because the Japanese delegated less attractive and less glorious jobs to people they regarded as 'inferior'.
Some pretty gruesome stuff as well, because after the horrors the Japanese unleashed on them, some outraged Chinese farmers weren't going to care where you were from or whether you loved the war or had to be dragged from your home by the Japanese.
There's photos of POWs being put in wooden cages and simply being left to die while passersby amused themselves looking at the captive Japanese, or 'Japanese'.
@@DonVigaDeFierro I didn’t know that but fuck yeah, just shows it’s the heart of the solider not just the weapon
Something that gets overlooked all too often is the raw material people started with: In Europe, pattern welding was abandoned (except for decorative uses) once more and better iron ore deposits had become accessible and metallurgy had likewise improved, allowing to make larger pieces of steel with distinct characteristics in different parts. In Japan, they largely had to work with iron sands, which puts significant limitations on how to proceed. The katana certainly was a masterpiece: making a sword of that size from that type of raw material is exceptional. But that doesn't say anything about its qualities vis-a-vis other swords from other areas of the world.
the reason the katana is able to stand on equal ground to western swords is because of the design and how almost magical the forging process brought out the absolute best from the materials. the japanese managed to make swords of equal quality to that of the standard western sword with worse material. otherwise, you are right, it would not be much of a discussion
@@rosscoe3044 “of equal quality” is not accurate.
The best Japanese alloys were inferior to even a typical European sword. The annealing and folding only helps to “shine a turd”.
If the two swords clashed, the katana would look like aluminum foil afterwards, which many tests have shown.
Against human flesh, yes both work. Saying equal quality is ridiculous.
@@FilmFlam-8008 and yet still many more tests were done that show the katana stands up perfectly well to western swords in terms of quality. also, for “cutting” people, the katana is better. they were swords with two different fighting styles in two different areas of the world. comparing them directly against one another is ludicrous, like was said in the video, it’s like comparing coke and pepsi. someone says this one tastes bad, someone says this one is healthier, another says this one is more sugar, etc. it’s never going to get anywhere, so just accept the conclusions from both videos and move along; that they were different but similar tools used in different parts of the world for slightly different things
@@rosscoe3044 nah, the highest quality katana is objectively worse than the highest quality longsword. The material is simply worse, you can apply the best manufacture process in the world and it still will be worse. The only "advantage" the katana has is better cutting power but that has nothing to do with the metal and everything to do with the shape (which also existed in Europe in the falchion or saber for example), also not really an advantage per se because you lose one edge, more like a sidegrade. If you tasked a very skilled European blacksmith to make you a sword in the shape of a katana but with European techniques and steel it would have been almost undoubtedly better than the Japanese one..
@@rosscoe3044 Yes, it IS just like comparing coke and pepsi, where coke objectively wins. No contest.
If you think about it, aren't all sword-users 'Edge-lords'? 🤔
Absolutely! 😂
Freaking stupid. (Your comment made me actually laugh out till I had a tear in my eye.)
I like all swords from all cultures, maybe not equally, but it just seems like a human constant that you want to make your knives longer for fighting in pretty much any culture that developes knives (and yes, even stone knives, as evidenced by the pre-conquistador Aztec swords which are really beautiful wooden 'paddles' with obsidian shards applied to them as blade edges)
If you like your lengthen knife so much... Just put it on a stick ffs 🤣
@@affegpus4195 har har har
i used to teach sword fighting back in the days for english civil war/medievil reanactors for over 15 yrs an i got to say you covered it really well and have to agree with you both. Both the swords and fighting styles have there own advantages and disadvantages. Is one better than the other no there just a different devlopment of the same thing. And neither can cut through concrete or steel girders like the films show us. My favorite Sword is a 42 inch cavalry swept hilt rapier for speed / length / weight/ and flexability it ticks all the boxes
I was confused the 1st time someone called me a weeb, I picked a Japanese martial art too I didn't get what they meant either I just learnt to fight, no anime, weird outfits or mystic stuff.
I'm British and only got into HEMA about a decade ago, I prefer my longsword to my katana for a few reasons, the reach, pointwork, halfswording and the guard just work well with my grapple/throw-centric martial art. Sparred with both, against both and that's just my preference 🙂
i took an interest in japanese swordsmanship such as kendo and iaido because of Sekiro and ghost of tsushima and my buddies kept calling me a weeb saying i watch too much anime even tho i only watch like 2 or 3. I only took interest because it looked pretty cool and i wanted to learn something like that😭 what i hate most abt it is cuz they think katanas and japanese swordsmanship are all anime and movies as if they werent part of history💀
@@jeffreygibson8990 I get that, everyone gets into stuff like this for different reasons, I don't know what qualifies you as a weeb 😄
Man, I love both of these swords with all of my nerdy heart, but I kind of want to see either of them compared to the Scottish claymore. It is my all-time favorite medieval/ancient weapon. Fun fact, it is also one of if not THE largest swords actually used in battle.
There's one called a Lowlander. They're a bit longer and heavier and where "used" but not nearly as much as the claymore.
God, the claymore is such a good looking sword, i love it so much
German battleswords?
@@taistelusammakko5088large, yes. Heavy, not as much
Woah! The blade can phase through other swords?
Awesoooome!
Let's just hope that doesn't happen on parry
I was gonna say, hope it doesnt glitch or you don't do it by accident
@@Cobinja in that case skall phases through the other sword.
0:31: Fun fact: the characters for "katana" can be read as the Chinese word "dao" which happens to mean "knife".
A, the little cousing of the Dadao
Should be sword in mandarin knife usually refers to a small sword
Katana also just means "knife" or "sword" depending on the context.
@@lps8966 nope. Dao means all blades in general. Swords, are called jian, while still being a Dao.
@@swordzanderson5352 no ,DAO refers to specifically one blade sword , Jian refers to two blades sword , and knife are usually small blade sword such as dagger
Everybody knows the perfect hybrid of a katana and a long sword is a Grosse Messer edit; holy shit I was right
Yeah, that's a badass sword there. I still like the katana since that's what I trained with in Japan and it just 'feels' right to me, but the Messer is an awesome sword.
@@Laneous14 I mean honestly this whole debate can be summed up by that sword. A large knife is a large knife! At the end of the day, what do they do? They all cut things. Done. No knife that was made for practical purposes is bad at cutting/ doing its job, and neither is a large knife, or “grossmesser”/ sword.
@Laneous14 ... what's so terrific about facts? 2000 years ago the world was flat as a fact. Today it's spherical as a fact. Back then Osiris being the all-seeing mangod was a fact, today it's absolutely recognised as a myth [Fact.]
Facts are about as certain as your feelings around them bro. Don't let them brainwash you!
@@DailyCorvid nah, people didn't believe the earth was flat in general. That's a misconception.
@@DailyCorvid the belief that the earth was flat actually is much older than that. It was before the European city states existed when people were still largely nomadic that humans believed that en masse. It was the very early Greeks that sought to prove that the earth was not in fact flat and they did, easily. The Chinese also did the same thing. If I was to give the flat Earth a date as to when it was a common belief it would be before 2000 BC.
It's mostly a 'PR' issue I think. The Katana is so integrally linked to the Japanese Samurai that you cannot imagine one without the other. There's this air about it which comes from the seemingly universal design that all Samurai adopted because it was so perfect and amazing. The 10,000 folded nippol steel handtwisted and forged by a 500 year old master swordsmith in the mountains, etc etc. Of course that's not the truth, they used many designs and types of weapons throughout history. But in pop culture it feels like Samurai used one singe design for all of their history.
Whereas in European history every period has it's own design associated with it. In classical times the Greek khopis and Roman Gladius. The Viking and Saxon era swords, the medieval bastard sword, the rapier, all the way to the nineteenth century sabre.
Honestly I think it's just the ignorance of Japanese history that mysticetes and romanises it.
I 100% agree with you on this. The fact that there is far less known about the katana compared to the European weapons really adds that "mystifying unknown" aspect. People are naturally drawn to mysteries, evident in the ABSOLUTELY INSANE amount of legend and myth around the world.
Wish you could save comments on TH-cam like on Reddit
Blame it on Movies. They overused the Katana that very much wherein reality it was the Spear (Polearm) that does the killing in all history.
@I Just Wanna Talk About Games being cringe is being free
@@parengthonycastillo4272 very true. A sword is:
-much harder and takes longer to make
-takes months of training to be used effectively
-far more expensive
But the sword wins in coolness ngl
I enjoy these good natured back and forths. It's not something that should be forced, but when the opportunity arises I think they make for great content.
Excellent video Skal, one of your best ! This was masterfully put together with excellent commentary, respectful and insightful critique, great use of clips from previous videos, movie references/clips and historical references/photos that added value as well as enjoyment...you're a stella content maker !
Since watching Shogun (the Richard Chamberlain mini-series) at age 10 I've always had a love for all things Japanese...including ofc the katana :) Funnily enough I think it was watching your channel (and Shad's) that cured me of my "belief" that the Katana was "the greatest sword ever made" ;) and watching you two over the years talking about slashing vs. thrusting, armoured vs non-armoured, weight vs. maneuverability, single-edged vs double edged, the benefits of cross-guards, reach, technique etc. kinda forced me to re-evaluate things and give long swords (and other blades) their due. All that said, katanas are still amazing weapons and very cool...but so is your Kriegmesser 🙂👍
[Edited to correct spelling mistake]
Thanks! Glad to know you enjoyed the video so much. It was a lot of work, but the fun kind of work.
*insightful
@@dizasteroid7 Corrected.
"I've trained for years to overcome the reach disadvantage!"
"While you've been doing that I've been training as well and am now a better all around fighter."
"Well damn."
Mike Tyson.
That sounds so much like a discussion on a GURPS character building:
"I've bought up 'dealing with longer reach weapons' technique, so my character can more easily deal with opponents with longer weapons!"
"DUDE you could have spent those points on raising your sword skill, it would both raise your hit chances and your defences!"
NANI?!
So, as someone that loves sword making and armed combat, it always makes me laugh to hear the arguments that the more volatile members of our community make. Both you and Cerberusarms make excellent points, and actually add to the conversation, so I thank you for that.
Personally, I tend to have a weird choice in weapons, as I've always been a bit more fond of the larger form of the katana, as I'm a bigger individual. If, however, I were to be in combat with a shield or tower-shield, then I'm going with either a mace or a shorter straight blade, such as a gladius or a spatha.
Call it what you will, but I really think the whole comparison thing gets overdone by the loud-mouths, and those of us who are reasonable tend to get shouted down, hence why I'm so happy that both of you are so level headed in your videos. It's really refreshing. :)
No, I think the Coke vs. Pepsi argument still fits fine. They really are slightly different flavors of the same core concept. Personally I have an aesthetic preference for single-edged weapons, so for the longest time I leaned much more towards the katana, but I've since been exposed to many different swords (and other weapons) which fit that pretty comparably, each with their own mechanical pros and cons.
I will never not like bladed tonfa though, no matter how impractical they might be. (Loved your video on the tonfa sword by the way!)
this crossover is something i wouldn't have really expected from either of you guys haha. anyhow, nice response to D's vid Skal!
Half-swording exists in Japanese sword martial arts too. Matt Easton did a video on it a couple years back.
Fun video, Skall. When it comes down to it, neither is overall superior. Both have advantages and disadvantages and context matters immensely.
13:47
I actually had the pleasure to train with these guys in Tokyo for a night. They were about as nice as you can get, taking great care in properly teaching me how to use their techniques in spite of the language barrier (they spoke some English and I spoke some Japanese, but you can imagine there's some jargon in certain martial disciplines).
Also, I had nearly a decade in formal kenjutsu training but their style and techniques were very novel to me. Their focus is on speed drawing (my style had a lot of drawing, too, but not the same emphasis) and they get pretty fancy with it.
If you're interested, look up Tenshin-ryu Hyoho. In my opinion, their style is about as Hiten-mitsurugi (Rurouni Kenshin) as it gets.
I heard they are a new school,and controversy around their legitimacy. What is your lived experience opinion?
Love the mature and reasonable nature of the contending presentations. Fight with honor and respect.
I know the beginning was a joke, but I adore your discontinued windlass. A double-edged katana-saber is such a unique design
I'm a fan of both D and Skallagrim so it was nice to see you guys reacting to each other's video's so positively. Spears are clearly better though so forget knights or samurai. Spartans for the win.
you forget that Samurai have basically a "Katana" spear ;) the Naginata
I do feel like a clean swing with a great sword such as a zweihander or a claymore or a katana, actually a number of things could disable a spear. It is an interesting difference because both a spear and any form of longer blade could easily disable the other with a well placed strike though I do agree that the spear is a lot more versatile it still lacks the overall power of a blade. This is however something of a useless dispute though still fun to think about.
But spartans all walk around shirtless with no armour and keep kicking people into holes, there is no way they could win.
spears: a weapon so good it's the only one we've kept since the dawn of time to the modern day.
Gladious beats all. Proud Roman
As an American, I'd say it depends upon when you grew up as to which sword was more romanticized. Sure, if you are younger you grew up with anime and hearing about the glory of the katana, but we older Americans (I'm in my early 50s) grew up with stories about Robin Hood, King Arthur, the Vikings, the Romans, etc., as well as LotR, Narnia, Conan, and so on that featured western swords, both real and fantastical, of various types. We'd all seen a "samurai" sword at one point or another, but they weren't nearly as familiar to us as western stuff.
I often times think about a video I watched a few years ago talking about longsword vs rapier. The starting point they had was "A sword is a sword". The differences we use to identify types of swords are all post-hoc, and historically you would see things like long swords with basket hilts or rapier blades with a cross guard. Which one is better? Depends on what you're looking for and what you can get.
I watched it too!
Similar to "super robot x real robot" in Japanese cartoons, they all blended into each other often, because there was no genre separation for the most part of it.
I feel like your magic sword phasing through the enemy's blade has a rather critical weakness...
It does, and why it works. You aren't meant to have defensive stances with it, like, at all. All attacks must be dodged, so you are constantly on the move. Pros: many aren't used to a frantic bastard whizzing around you in circles. Cons: you can't defend unless you can do a pommel guard which is stupidly hard and you are get pretty tired pretty freaking quick.
@@swordzanderson5352 One of the things that makes the new ring of power show so painful to watch is it's actually really *****ing* difficult to dodge a sword and never parry.
If you are within the blade range you are not going to hop or duck it sorry, that's why thousands of years we used shields even if you have something to parry with it's still dangerous.
@@VioletDeathRei I do a lot of fencing and can confirm that dodging, ducking, jumping on the opponents blade and teleporting is exactly how we usually avoid all attacks.
The hard part is to not accidentally wake up.
@@szarekhthesilent2047 lmao you got me in the first half
@@VioletDeathRei Absolutely agreed. Even without swords and just using martial arts, dodging is f***ing hard, unless you absolute outclass your opponent in terms of speed and reflexes.
To use this sword effectively, one would basically have to use some form of shield that wouldn't hinder 2-handed use. A buckler, perhaps. Or a forearm shield.
Eh, the main advantage of this blade is that no one expects a blade to just phase through, so more often than not, if you get the first swing, then they have to parry, which means slicey dicey, he's gonna be pretty dead.
The one thing that is always absent in comparisons between a longsword and a katana is mounted combat.
Two handed weapons always had a huge disavantages in mounted combat.
@@titouanvlieghe6190 That is debatebale. Especially in the case of katanas and longswords witch are perfectly usable one-handed.
this is like half of the reason why i think this comparison is dumb as hell. katana is more like a sabre in design and use than any long sword! from mounted combat to duels to military use the katana is just a sabre with no knuckle guard and a longer handle
@@FEDsquared Yup, and on horseback the reach disadvantage will be even more detrimental.
And what is even more important, katanas are not flexible, they bend. I can't stress how easy it is to accidentally hit something or someone with the flat during a melee from horseback.
@@kamilszadkowski8864 yeah you can, it's just not made for that so you always have a bit of a disavantage.
As a German I wanna thank you for bringing up the "Kriegsmesser" (war knife). It's one of my favourite weapons that somehow rarely gets recognized because it always stands in the shodow of the more famous classical longsword. There are also "lange Messer" (long knives) that are fairly similar.
Also, I appreciate your recognition of the various and advanced European fencing and sword fighting schools and styles.
Sadly we Germans ourselves do a pretty bad job in conserving and promoting this cultural heritage (at least if you compare it to the Japanese people).
And yeah, there are several mystical swords in European myths, like Gram (Balmung in the Nibelungen saga), the sword of Siegfried or Mimung the sword of the mystical blacksmith Wieland.
Yet I think in Europe we never imagined these swords to have souls of their own like they did in Japan. They were merely really powerful tools that wielded some mystical power.
It's a good name because "Krieg" means war and if you go to war with one you're going to turn your opponent into a mess.
...Dangit. The joke works better with the Grossmesser because you can just say "It turns your opponent into a gross mess".
I know of grosse messer and lange messer, and now kriegsmesser? It just keeps getting better
for the info in france the term for those messer is braquemard.
wich for most people these days is just a slang word to talk about a gentleman sausage.
@@jimbocrowhurst5503 that's actually really freaking cool and I'm not quite sure what a "gentleman sausage" is nor do I want to find out
@@MrChubbiful I'll let you find out the meaning of the expression " ce derouiller le braquemard" then. ahah
Sabres never gained the mysticism because they were just a sidearm, or decoration later... The musket that they carried along with the sabre was what gained the mysticism instead. America is gun culture; katanas didn't come until later as part of the Japanese culture trade. Remember, not only did we get katanas in Western culture - we also got Japanese cowboys.
So, you're saying America's Katana is the M-16 ? :)
@@eraz0rhead Maybe the Winchester 57 (cowboy rifle), the 45 Magnum (Dirty Harry), the M1 Garand (WWII), or the Tommy gun (mob movies.)
@@eraz0rhead I'd honestly wager a lever action being more our sword, have other countries made anything like that?
your nation hasn't existed for long enough to have something directly comparable with the Japanese in mysticism, it's time and fable that create that mysticism. I see lots of people here saying the revolver was the American equivalent but samurai purchased from S&W and carried their revolvers quite a bit too
@@dayshon124 The British had double action revolvers in the 1850s, calm yourself. And lever actions never got officially adopted for military service
6:21 The problem with sabers is nothing to do with the blades themselves, but the time period of their rise in popularity.
Gun technology was improving and by the 1800s, swords just couldn't compete. They were still a symbol of status back in the day, but now not even that...
If you ran into battle sword first, it would only be remarkable if you lived to tell the tale.
It's also important to remember that during the period in which american sabers saw development, america's national identity was rapidly shifting away from the classical colonial yankee identity to the more contemporary multicultural identity. in a world where cultures outside of the accepted norm are prioritized and idealized(sometimes even fetishized and demonized but that's another discussion) a classical european style saber holds a whole lot less value than lets say, a native american tomahawk. that's all conjecture of course, just figured i'd give my two cents.
@@Blossom-nk7dw true true, but American's identity is guns, because guns were the "equalizer" weapon of the time.
The American saber is still actually a thing, but it is solely traditional and used for decorative purposes. I think it is important to note that only at the position of captain are you granted a saber as you are moving up rank (I may be wrong with that, but I am pretty sure it is captain), as such there are only so many made and was a symbol of rank rather than skill. Also they were not really used even when they were more viable, people carried them if they had to get into melee, but captains are not often on the front lines and duals were done with pistols rather than swords.
Man I forgot you used to do firearm videos, I'd love to see those come back.
Brandon Herrera lets go best gun channel
@@DailyCorvid yeah I've seen his videos. And hickok45 and demolition ranch and garand thumb and kentucky ballistics. I just really liked skall's unique style as well.
TH-cam hates videos on guns. If he did firearm videos, TH-cam would recommend him far less. I'm guessing that's why he stopped doing them.
Heard something crazier than running into battle with a saber in the age of gunpowder, going into battle during WW2 carrying a Scottish broadsword longbow and at times playing the pipes.
Madjack Chruchill.
Even in a game like elden ring reach is so noticable I can't even imagine how important it would ve in real life
Try kingdom come deliverance. You would love that game, and reach also becomes a thing
Well everyone knows the souls games are accurate combat simulators /s 🤣
@@giggy7935 lol that's my point there so unrealistic yet reach is still massively important in more realistic fights it would matter even more cuase u can't just roll through attacks with a hammer bigger then u are
I fought with a short Messer and Buckler against a relatively new person with a longsword recently. I managed to close and get hits a bunch of times, then I stopped and suggested that they try to thrust more whenever they had their point near me and to try to follow-up rather than stop after a single cut. It got *a lot* harder after that, and they landed a lot more on me than I did on them from then on. Reach advantage is big!
An extremely thoughtful and educational video on a timeless subject. There's no easy comparison there's so many variables that you clearly emphasise. I love your channel for the fairness you show.
Glad to see a fellow fan of the S&W M&P. I use one as my personal duty weapon. Used to have a CZ but it wasn't on the company's list of approved weapons. My main reason for liking the M&P is that it has an optional manual safety.
But can it end him rightly?
Longsword: ☑️ 10/10
Katana: ❌ 0/10
Longsword wins *Flawless Victory*
lmao
7:22
Edo Samurai: *cries in short reach*
Sengoku Samurai: *laughs in tachi*
Agreed! Tai Chi beats swords any day! Be sure to supplement your tai chi training with Qigong though.
Pretty sure the tachi was replaced by the katana mostly before and during the Sengoku period.
@@turtlesaredifferentfromtor6745 Absolutely untrue. People say naginata stopped being used, stopped using nodachi, stopped using cavalry because of guns and spears, they stopped using bows when guns came around, stopped using tachi because of the mongol invasions etc. and it kinda drives me nuts.
Sure, the simpler katana was certainly more popular in that period. But if you were a cavalryman or maybe a somewhat higher ranking infantry samurai you probably wore a tachi.
The katana we envision today (two handed sword with 60-70 centimeter blade, black and white hilt wrap) was also not standard. A lot of katana were almost longsword length, some were one handed, some were straight, some were very curved etc. they varied a lot. But generally, they were more robust. They were also not as fancily mounted (if you were the average ashigaru/lower-mid ranking samurai) you probably had a big iron/rawhide disc as a tsuba and simple leather wrapped handle.
Katana kinda get in the way of spears when worn edge up so they were often worn edge down (although unlike the tachi style mountings, the scabbard is thrust into the sash or belt).
@@turtlesaredifferentfromtor6745 not true. From period art we see that tachi were still popular through the sengoku period and were only truly overtaken by katana at the start of the edo period.
@@swordzanderson5352 you must be thinking of nodachi because from iconography, nearly all samurai are depicted wearing tachi.
I think the biggest difference always comes down to one thing, armor design. If European style full plate got introduced into Japan and heavily used during the early stages of Katana development, I think the sword designs would change significantly. Not that Japanese style body armor was entirely ineffective, but just designed differently for unique goals.
Samurai already transitioned from being mounted archers to shock cavalry by sengoku jidai period. Toward the end of the period, Samurai armour have already incorporated breastplate into their armour to counter arquebus becoming more prevalent.
Even if plate harness was known in Japan, the katana we know of today came from the Edo period. By then, samurai were required by law to wear a katana and wakazashi pair at all times. Katanas from that period was actually being cut down a few inches to be more convenient to wear on the waist.
@@martytu20 Yup, the yari (lance-like spear) was the favored weapon when the samurai's armor was at its peak, and it was apparently pretty effective at punching through their metal armor (and hitting the vulnerable gaps). The katana was simply never meant to be used against armored opponents, and neither was the longsword frankly.
@@kenjutsukata1o1 Neither weapons were intended to be frontline weapons, but imo the longsword wins out as a sidearm because it CAN be (or at least is more effective than a katana) used against armored opponents. Like, sure, you aren't going to be slicing or stabbing through steel plate, but the design allows you to effectively grapple with the opponent's weapons and disarm them or can be used to more accurately target joints with half-swording, or can be used for the beloved death stroke.
For the environment it was used in though, it wasn't as bad for the katana, but again, that was because japanese armor was less sophisticated than western. To their credit, we are talking about armor so expensive that having a set of it made you someone of status who was more valuable to take alive than to kill even if you were defeated, and against someone in gambeson a katana probably wouldn't do so poorly, BUT, for a direct comparison, I do believe the versatility of a longsword makes them better against armored opponents generally.
I think maybe the Katana reaching legendary status in the west could also be to do with stories told after WW2. I remember someone telling some story about a Katana cutting a Bren gun in half, or something daft like that. I remember before learning about Samurai I first saw Katana's on Japanese officers in movies.
"... Some story about a Katana cutting a Bren gun in half..."
😶
🤣
That truly is one of the most daft things I've ever heard of lmao!
The barrels broke off due to overheating not due to the sword that hit em
@@realah3001if the gun were hot enough a cut could quite feasibly do that
I'm forever traumatized by the Rivers of Blood katana from Elden Ring so I just start crying uncontrollably whenever I see a katana.
As long as you're not crying a river. Of blood. Let alone two of them. Rivers, you could say.
(Never liked it for PVE, but I see how that weapon art would earn it nicknames like Rivers of Cringe)
In case you are no longer active on that game, you may be pleased to know it has been nerfed. It can still catch you sleeping, but is no longer stupid. Moonveil on the other hand...
@@legi0n47x Moonveil isn't that bad, it just becomes stupid when three people are ganking you with it.
Reject Rivers of Blood, embrace Golden Order Greatsword.
You mean Murasama, Jetstream Sam sword
You two and Shadiversity need to do collabs. Should be some great entertainment.
I always thought the Swiss Sabre looked more like a European version of a Katana.
I think so much of the katanas popularity stemmed from the aesthetic. It arguably looks cooler.
I think the real question is which is more practical in an urban setting. Maybe katanas are more nimble in thar regards - like the quick draw advantage, for example.
If anyone hasn't seen it, I highly recommend the movie Twilight Samurai. In it, a samurai is chosen for his skill with a shorter sword, because an indoor fight was expected.
This is my favorite Skal vid that he's put out in a while! Love the analysis of both blades, and could not agree more with the conclusion. User matters as much or more than the weapon
What's the best weapon? Whichever one you're good at, simple as that.
@@TimeofRagnarok It's not the sword it's the swordsman
"Back when anime was obscure" Ah the goooood ol days.
I did watch that video. It did seem balanced, but a bit weird about a few points. But given the general unfamiliarity of longswords, vs just trying 1 example, I gave it a pass on those few small details.
One thing I think gets missed a lot is when all these weapons were around. In the 14thC when longswords were becoming a serious thing, the Tachi was in use in Japan. The Katana really came about during the 15thC. And that leads to what I think coloured the rise of the mythologies.
During WWII, Japanese soldiers (or officers anyway) often had Katanas. By WWII just about everyone had ditched the military sword in Europe and US. They were around in WWI for officers, but mostly dropped out as snipers would just headshot the idiot with the sabre. So the west at this point was mostly used to sports fencing weapons. While japan (and to a degree China etc) were still carrying cut-focused hand weapons. And yes, I'd pick a katana any day over a sports epee. Or a small sword, or even a cavalry sabre.
The melee weapons that even made it to the 20thC in Europe were specialised things. A foot duel katana v cavalry sabre throws out the purpose of the sabre. But even before then, the rifle had become the main weapon. And the pistol the sidearm. Sabres, smallswords, etc had become symbolic more than anything. While the Katana was the same beast (for the most part) as they used in the 1600s.
So, vague hypothesis (might be a strong term, seeing I have no way of testing) I'm putting forward is that Europeans (and European colonies) had lost touch with what swords and edged weapons could do. Their examples were pissy symbolic things or old rusty things for the main part. And then they encounter a culture who kept the sword very much alive. And see that well made sharp bits of steel can be dangerous. And think it must be those particular well made sharp bits of steel.
A tip of the longsword is gonna travel at a faster speed becouse of its length and how simple levers work. It will also get you earlier couse reach.
I have not tested these weapons with my hands so i only have visual information from the internet to learn from them. The first thing i see is that the european sword has long guards and a pommel which increases the possibility of parrying, as well as being more comfortable to thrust attacks. Katana is curved which makes it cut a little better, and since it does not have a pommel and long guards it is more agile (fast). Therefore, a claymore would be useful if you have no armor because it provides defensive sustain, problem is that in war the better you attack and/or the faster you are there are more chances that the enemy will be disabled and you will survive to avoid damage, in addition to that if you want to thrust, that's what pikes or spears are made for, a sword is an object whose sharp blade is long and is mainly designed to cut, not necessarily hit with the tip (except for rapier or fencing foil).So, katana is usually more famous than the european straight sword because it is more destructive. However the most devastating weapon in the world (sharp) is the axe.
You sitting on the fence like that I thought I was watching Tim pool for a second... That's terrible I'm going to shut up now
I thought the perfect hybrid of a katana in longsword would be a Kriegs Messer
Tim Pool's beanie has a beanie underneath his beanie.
Pool isn't on the fence, he's a hardcore grifting Republican
@@BaithNa guessing you don’t actually watch his show then? Tim is a raging centrist at this point, he’s got a ways to go before he’s a “hardcore republican”. Especially given his thoughts on fiscal policy.
@@BaithNa I moved from a super left wing state/ city to a super right wing state/ city and my quality of life improved immensely. I can no longer argue with the results. The modern day R build better communities.
I'm totally a banana weeb, but even so ... I just really love the aesthetics of a straight symmetrical blade, rather than a curved blade.
I find single edged straight sword because it looks very simplistic and effective.
@Paenumbra Horse? try bike or car
@Paenumbra A straight sword does, too.
@Paenumbra Any sword can.
"Banana weeb"
ALright i'm going to need John Cleese to teach me self defense against fresh fruit again.
Good stuff. Weapons serve different tactical and strategic scenarios. They are similar, to the point that two of the same length would be nearly identical. When people have similar-enough equipment, victory is determined by skill level and battlefield flexibility.
If I had to pick a difference out, it would be how katanas are designed more for maximum speed. That speaks to a “weapon matching a technique matching a tactic to accomplish a strategic objective”. The longsword seems more intentionally geared for flexibility for dealing with enemies in any kind of armor or general battlefield combat situation.
But neither is better. Better depends on what people are trying to accomplish and how they plan to achieve that objective. Whatever weapon is most effective for a scenario is the best.
Skall, I have been very critical of your reviews in the past, but this response video showed a different side of your ability to be objective and jovial. It genuinely made me see you in a different light and realize I have misjudged you. I recognize my error and offer sincere apologies. I am now a subscriber and looking forward to learning more about blades.
That ain’t a knofe
*pulls out Krieg messer* This is a knofe
Edit: Grosse Messer apologies
Not that there universally agreed upon nomenclature for swords. I read "langes Messer" (literally long knife) in old texts. And in German you have different cases. This changes the word. E.g. singular would be "ein großes Messer" or Großmesser. See the "s". Plural would be "große Messer" or (unchanged) Großmesser.
@@1IGG ah thank you…
Thanks didn’t know how to
spell it
100% on the reach thing. I've used a short hand axe a lot, especially against medium and long hand axes, also against seax and sword. It takes a lot of practice and failed attempts to get even half decent at fighting a longer weapon. Only against a seax did I find it more of a balanced match. But once you do get in range without being hit, a short weapon becomes a bit easier to manoeuvre and strike.
And that's only possible if the guy you're dueling is a worse fighter. Weapons with longer reach(to a reasonable degree) are objectively superior.
@@mr.strugglesnuggle6668 Bullshit. Even if youre fighting someone really good at using the weapon that they're using, if you can close that gap quickly and effectively its over.
@@SnowMexicann Yeah, too bad that's not so easy. Longer weapons dominated the battlefields for centuries for a reason.
@@mr.strugglesnuggle6668 Yes because its much easier to train a guy with a spear than it is to train him with an axe. But when you have a 1v1 where one guy is completely trained with the short axe its much more comparable. I take it critical thinking isnt your strong suit?
@@SnowMexicann So not only don't you know absolutely nothing about historical European martial arts but you're a rude pseudo-intellectual too. Brilliant. And here I thought that Canadians were supposed to be polite and well educated.
The real reason spears dominated the battlefield is not only the reach advantage but because a lot of people like farmers already were somewhat familiar with them due to a lifetime of using pitchforks and similar implements. Funny you'd bring up spears specifically though and not say, poleaxes, halberds or pikes since we're talking dueling but alright I guess. It's not like the practise was unique to the medieval time period after all.
Anyway good luck getting close enough to a guy with the reach advantage who's at least just as skilled or better than you to hit him with an axe(why not an arming sword?) like I mentioned on my original comment. Spoilers: Life isn't a video game and it won't end well.
For me personally, it was the Highlander series that made me think that the katana was the coolest sword ever ^^
I can completely and utterly respect this video 100% and it's nice to see both sides. Great job my friend
Both videos highly objective and mature, a rare sight for the katana vs longsword discussion lol
Now that you mentioned American sabers, could you make a video about sabers vs bayonets? Must have happened quite often in the 18th and 19th century but people don't seem to talk about it that much.
This would be really neat.
My experience with both is limited, but I have always been more partial to the longsword in terms of aesthetic. I feel like the oversaturation of katanas in media growing up made the longsword stand out more when it would show up. Oddly enough given the original source, I kind of have Power Rangers to thank for that growing up, because more often than not any sword was more longsword-esque in appearance than katana like. That and Devil May Cry later on, Rebellion is just really cool looking. In my limited experience using them, I tend towards the longsword because I suck with swords that have a smaller guard.
In America we don't have an iconic sword even though sabers were used they were from different countries The Bowie knife is more of the traditional legendary blade of America.
Guns
@@johnfkennedy129 Guns.
@@NCRVeteranRanger no... BIG guns
@@notaidannotcarlson7107 And if that don’t work, use more gun.
I agree there isn''t really a sword that defines America because of the time period that the country grew up in. America is more knife defined with the different style of knives that served throughout the founding, wild west etc etc that the knives were second hand items with our guns being the mainstay.
4:11 honestly the pendulum has swung and now i hear people say that having no sword at all is better than having a katana without a trace of irony
I swear, I’ve seen 30 people treating the katana like trash for every 1 who treats it as better than it was.
Technically true in that going around with a katana is more likely to get you into trouble for carrying a weapon than going around without any sword. But of course that's true of literally any sword.
I mean... NOW it is. But that's because it's archaic, and carrying a weapon gets you attention anywhere. Even in America you may get some looks if you're open carrying, even if it's something reasonable like a pistol. Funnily enough for most self defense, I'd probably want someone to have a melee weapon rather than something that can cause a bunch of collateral. But walking around with a big knife might actually be less socially acceptable than having a pistol. Our standards are silly.
@@turtlesaredifferentfromtor6745 I don't think i've ever seen anyone treating it like trash... All i see is over-glorification and near worship of it and the culture behind it.
It's definitely the most overhyped sword and culture, entirely without equal.
Although to be fair, nowadays it tends to be more "well at least it's not *worse* than a longsword, r-right guys...?" rather than outright praise for it, so maybe it's changing.
Yeah, it has gotten pretty ridiculous. Of course it's bound to happen much more on videos about European arms and armor.
Yes, we’ve been waiting for this!
There's too many videos on this godforsaken subject and at this point, it's not even about katanas vs longsword. It's just people talking about their feelings on the subject of katanas vs longswords, with some obligatory remarks about reach or some tatami cutting thrown in, all in service of then coming to no conclusion. Because this subject is radioactive enough that no one probably wants to take a risk of picking a side, just stay neutral every time.
Im so glad you mentioned the draw cut of the katana. Most dont mention it at all. Thats where the katana Excels the most over other swords. Samurai would practice draw cuts way more than knights or Europeans would with a long sword. Also samurai would try to end an one on one battle with one single cut vs Europeans or knights would because of heavier armor and chain mail. Yes some samurai would wear chain mail but not nearly as much as a Knight. Knights armor was superior as well allowing them to take more strikes and blows vs samurai armor. They also had way different honor codes during battle. I always say a Samurai would win a one on one and knights would win an army vs army.
Go & look up kenjutsu & notice just how many cuts are aimed at the hand/fingers (highly effective, but not even close to 'ending with one single cut')
Samurai armour weighed about the same as European armour as a percentage of bodyweight (the Japanese being much smaller, even more so than today). Both dealt with armour by going for gaps, usually with wrestling involved
Their honour codes were basically 'win, be brave & do as you are told', they only got codified (& romanticised) much, much later