Mosin-Nagant Factory Pressure Test Rifle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ย. 2018
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How did people determine chamber pressure in the years before computers and fancy electronics? Well, by squishing a calibrated slug of copper. Factories would convert rifles specifically for pressure testing use by adding a pressure ring around the chamber, drilling a hole in it, and then threading in a gage to crush a block of copper. This Mosin Nagant is an excellent example of the system, complete with the all the testing apparatus!
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Very technically speaking, a Mosin Nagant with a gas piston.
Taco press included
Fully automatic mosin
in a very specific sense, a firearm itself is just a type of heat driven piston engine. so this is a heat piston with another heat piston attatched to find the operating pressure of the first heat piston
Hahaha
I would love to see one of these firing in slow motion and seeing the copper squish
It would be cool to see it fire,however the "squish" is probably measured in thousandths or hundredths of an inch and not as dramatic as one might imagine.
Quick let's get Talfledermaus on this project!
@@JohnLeePedimore Unlikely, since they could measure this before 1900, at a time when measuring thousandths or hundredths of an inch wasn't possible.
@@anzaca1 Micrometers have been around since the 1850's. thousands or ten thousandths of an inch can be measured that early
@@anzaca1 Joseph Whitworth was measuring thousandths of an inch back in 1857 and the micrometer is much older than that. I'm not sure if they even used CUP on black powder guns back then because the normal method was to "proof test" the barrels by loading a double charge and firing it. Proof testing is still in use in Italy today.
Oh wow, this rifle was made in Imperial Russia. You can see on the markings it says "Imperial Tul's weapon factory". This rifle is literally more than 100 years old.
*Tula's
@@RonJohn63 And interestingly, the testing rig is dated 1914. Someone took a rifle from backstock to convert for cartridge development at Tula.
I have one that was made in 1898
That's how copper money was made in imperial Russia
The kopyeyka minting machine
nice
CUP pressure test is no longer primary method in Russia.
Now, Putin puts his finger over a hole in chamber, and just writes down how much pressure he felt
Right,but "Putin" is wrong. Right is "Hyuilo"
From copper to Kopek.
It would be cool to see it in action as a demo.
The consignor likely wouldn't allow it.
i was thinking the same thing i would love to see how much that copper sqaushes
Props to Ian for speeding up the un-screwing of the piston unit.
Fun Fact: the receiver markings translate to "Emperor's Tula arms factory".
where im from, "tula" means dick. So this factory would be something like Emperor's dick factory, lmao
@@DekazetaDKZ Tula is a city in Russia where the oldest Russian firearms factory is located
@@alcedob.5850 tulammo #1
Thanks! I've seen 'C.U.P.' for a long time, but never knew how it was actually derived.
I've seen U.P too ;)
It's expressed in PSI nowadays in ballistic and reloading information but they still call it CUP.
@@thetoecutter13 Yep. There are many cautions about getting them mixed up.
I always wondered how “CUPs” where calculated, and why they where called “Copper Units”.
Thank you.
I love this, it is so much more palpable and aesthetic than electronic measurement. Rule of thumb: Everything was cooler in the past except when you got sick or belonged to the lower class.
Hi welcome to the hydraulic press channel... wait.
This is more like a pneumatic press.
@@mottee We know, we know... that's not the point.
I love your icon. Trumpdy Dumpdy’s head with hitler hair.
...with the tsar
As a reloader I know what CUP is and have that info in some of my older manuals, but I've never seen a pressure test rifle . So this is a really cool video to watch . In recent reloading manuals PSI is used , and there is information stating the barrel used for load development of each cartridge before the various bullet weights and charges of powder used . Often times the barrel will be a certain manufacture , length and twist rate . But sometimes the barrel used is listed as "test barrel '. A knowledgeable shooter and reloader should inspect the fired brass for signs of overpressure . These are , but not limited to , primers showing signs of backing out of the pocket , primer cratering , primer flattening , excessive case stretch , and such . Interesting story , I was new to reloading and told a relative I could use the spent brass from his 30-30 to reload better than factory ammo . When I received some brass he had recently shot I gave them an inspection before depriming . The primers were set back from the pocket a few thousands of an inch were a bit flattened , and were starting to crater . I asked him how his rifle was shooting . He said as accurately as ever , but the recoil seemed harder . I told him his rifle was shooting too high a pressure . Over the years he cleaned the powder residue from his bore and chamber, but never cleaned for copper fouling . After a thorough cleaning of copper buildup the rifle shot factory ammo with no signs of overpressure , but accuracy was terrible . My handloads shot equally poor groups . Years of improper cleaning had damaged the the rifling just forward of the chamber . The fouling was allowing the bullet into the rifling straight but slowing it's release from the case . Y'all Take note . Clean your guns of powder residue and metal fouling . And if your spent brass , especially the primers , look wonky , have the gun checked out before shooting it anymore . Peace , Out !
I don’t even own a firearm and this was insanely interesting to read. Thank you!!!
It's a Pasta machine, but without the loose falling-of crank
Thank you very much for the channel! I knew almost nothing about firearms, and I would never had learned all that incredible secrets behind the science and history. And there you are, handling original prototypes and stuff...
One of the best youtubers I know, honestly. Keep it up! 👍👍👍
The calculation is fairly easy to calculate chamber pressure via this method. Its always interesting to see the change in technology over the years for just taking measurements. Now days strain gauges or piezoelectric sensors are used.
+Mongo63a
It's not easy enough to do without a calculator, but yea. I'll bet gauges are better than having to keep track of copper pellets, for sure!
@@Thelothuo Yes... but nowhere near as cool!
Piezo electronics are also used for amplifying acoustic instruments! Things like guitars and ukeleles. Interesting how the same concepts carry over. In acoustic instruments, the crystal is placed underneath the bridge saddle (where all the downward pressure from the strings goes into the body) and turns the string vibrations into an electric signal and then into an amplifier.
Mosin man, take me by the hand. :D
Something something Oberman
March to the corner of Siberia is a real trip.
Obrez man
The voyage to beat the Hapsburgs and Huns is a real trip
If somebody wonders that writings on the reciever in front of the test tube means. It is 'Emperor's/Imperial Munitions Plant of Tula'
i thought it was "Cheeki Breeki"
Very interesting rifle for pressure testing. Thanks for showing this interesting rifle Sir an have a Happy thanksgiving.
Gorgeous looking piece and very neat example of early rifle testing.
Awesome video, Ian, thanks. I’ve read about CUP measurements often, but never properly understood them until now. Fairly ingenious device I’d say.
The cone on the end of the thread is also the sealing surface, to stop gas leaking up the threads.
This was a awesome video! It is interesting to see the tools people used to us.
What an incredibly cool look into how old school factory testing was done. I bet that rifle would have some stories if it could talk.
Thanks for another great video.
Very cool. These types of videos are great
This was really interesting content. More of this would be appreciated.
The lettering on the rifle: "Imperial (royal) Tula's (town name) gun works" so it was a state owned gun factory.
This is so cool! It’s basically a second year engineering strengths problem to test a useful application!
A really interesting video, thanks for sharing the CUP process
This truly my fav channel super interesting I had no idea so much thought went in to gas pressure
The stuff I learn. I'll join your patreon. I've never done that before, but the world would be lesser without Forgotten Weapons
Ian, you've answered a question I've had for some time about CUP, copper units of pressure. Now I know where the term came from and why there's no direct conversion of CUP to PSI. Another day that I learned something. It's a good day, thanks.
M16 makes neat wounds. Complies With The Geneva Convention. AK-47 makes terrible injuries. Does not comply with the Geneva Convention. The Mosin rifle is the reason for the creation of the Geneva Convention
I found that really interesting, honesty never thought I would say that about a mosin !
Amazing thanks Ian
Would be really cool to shoot it to show us! If possible of course!
If the firing pin was not removed and/or barrel stopped, it should still theoretically work.
Nagants are notoriously tough rifles - my best friend has a Russian Armory Mosin-Nagant, which saw heavy use through both World Wars (paper trails and stampings say this) and only now after a century of hard use, is it starting to show it's age.
And let me tell you, despite to being more than 4x my age, it still kicks like a mule and will deafen anyone at the shooting range if they're not wearing protection lol
Great video! Also congratulations on being able to say “vent gas out of your open hole” not only with a straight face, but also in a legitimate use case!!
I always wondered what that meant. Thanks Ian.
Thank you ,Ian .
This is the kind of obscure coolness I only get on Forgotten Weapons.
I really like this gun. It's a view into the practicalities of the production of firearms-which is what a lot of us are here for- and it's also a old and interesting gun in beautiful condition, which pleases my soul
Never heard of this. Interesting video.
Very interesting.... I never really thought about exactly how they went about doing things like that.
Very cool the unit of squish..... brilliant!!
Copper Crushers, as the copper pistons are know were a common way of measuring the in chamber pressure of many rifles. Normally what would happen would that a manufacturer of these 'crusher's' (which came in rods and balls) would sell them as lots with pressure tables (a tarage table), as Ian mentioned, one you have fired your round you would measure the amount of compression on the rod and ball and compare it to your table to give you a pressure measurement. This system had been around since the early 50's and was uses world wide in small arms, even though it began life which large calibre (i.e. artillery pieces).
As of 1977 Abderdeen Test Centre delcared that the Copper Crusher Method was no longer suitable for NATO purposes as it could not be measured precisely, therefore nowadays most NATO countries (and many non NATO countries), use Piezoeletric sensors which are quartz based sensors which can provide measurements with accuracy to normally 0.5%. (Depending on how well the equipment has been maintained, whether it is within it's calibration spec and the DAQ system it is attached too is operated by a competent user).
Oddly enough you still see copper crushers being used in and around the middle east and normally on shotgun cartridge testing mainly out of habit and that Piezoelectric sensors can be expensive (read approx $2-3k per sensor).
Of course you can convert,you take the stress deformation graph of copper,you put the permanent deformation ofthe copper on x and you go up with a line of the same inclination of elastic deformation ,when the line intersect the copper graph thats the pressure on the copper,you multiply that for (Area coppercylinder)/(area piston) and you obtain the pressure inside the chamber
Correlation coefficient, not quite a direct conversion of units.
Years ago when I was an inspector in a large manufacturing facility hardness was tested using CPU's also by measuring the squish of the copper pellet by smashing into a surface with a round anvil to create a dent to a certain depth. The latter tests used a direct pressure reading but the old charts still listed CPU's for comparison.
Cool setup.
This is very cool, thank you
Thats pretty cool. Way to blow my mind
As glad as I am to live in 2018, I have great respect for people of the past, given what they could achieve with the available resources.
Beautiful rifle.
Very interesting, thanks for the education.
I would strongly suggest these for anyone just getting into hunting for the first time or into range shooting. Its a fantastic rifle that doesnt break the bank
I mean so long as you know the Young's modulus of the copper sample then you can calculate the force applied. The force applied divided by the surface area of the chamber should be your chamber pressure
Love these bolt action marathon weeks
Every 7.62x54 realoader needs one of these
I never thought I'd see a Mosin Nagant on this channel
Now that's a rare one, it deserves to be well preserved IMO.
That is awesome. I've always read about CUP and had a description of how it worked, but honestly I never really 'got' it. Seeing the gear right there on video I'm like, 'well, duh, it's so obvious'.
A fascinating engineering application of using a measured axial deformation of a member with known properties! I imagine these must be relatively accurate at measuring chamber pressure.
This is actually kind of simplistically genius, I wouldnt have thought to measure it in such a crude way, but measuring the deformation there would be mathematically super easy
So now I know thanks to you, sir.
damn close to 1 million subs
Very informative.
You are the Bob Ross of guns!
For some reason I'm much more drawn to the old school of engineering to the modern day CNC and 3d printing era, I could watch things like this all day
If the testing apparatus is still functional, maybe set up a special one-time Patreon deal so you can put a bid in for it (assuming you don't plan to anyway) so we can get a video of it being used. I'd chip a few $ towards that.
Oooh, this tickles my science muscle just the right way...
4:13
heh
Was looking for a comment to let me know I'm not the only immature one.
i was immediately reminded of a certain bit in the simpsons..
In Imperial Russia, units of copper C U P outside of urinal.
Good to see how thet measured c.u.p. units, thanks
Daily dose of gun jesus
Daily dose of needless internet toxicity.
@@Nathan-mg7ho daily dose of social justice...
i guess, im just tired of people being dicks to each other for no apparent reason, call it social justice if you will
@@Nathan-mg7ho
I get you, bud...
'Consult the book of armaments .."Monty Python and the holy grail
the extra editing was way good
Thank you unnamed soldier who had the foresight to "liberate" all the working parts to this weapon/tool. I would not have had the knowledge to find all the little accompanying parts, especially the copper slug.
I don't recall any US soldiers ever invading the Tula factory. I'd say this was given to Winchester or some such in WWI to help with ammo manufacture.
@@wingracer1614 Ohh, perhaps. My thoughts were possibly a German soldier and the kit was later sold on the open market.
Saw a pressure test Styer M95 at a gun show once. None of the extra toys with it but I regret not going for it
CUP and psi have no direct conversion, but are of the same general magnitude; a cartridge developing about 50,000 CUP will develop pressures in psi about the same plus or minus a few thousand.
The pressure tables are drawn up with copper cylinders of the type described, which are subjected to known pressure impulses in a pile driver-type device.
it always amazes me how quickly that much pressure is built up when the powder by its self doesn't burn all that fast
I haven’t watched the video yet but I know this is gonna be great.
Very cool gun. I never thought about how they measured chamber pressure in those times.
What would have been really cool, besides seeing the measurement process of course, would have been a second one of those copper pieces from after the test to get a feeling about how much it shortens. But I'm pretty sure you just didn't have one on hand.
Seriously?!?! NO DEMO? HOLY CRAP I kept waiting & waiting & dang it Ian you teaser! Very Cool anyways!
I'd read about crush gauges before, but until I looked closely at the thumbnail, I'd never seen one before. Don't think I've ever clicked faster than when I realized what I was looking at.
Man, thats very cool.
There are two pressure testing Mauser rifles on display in the Museo Historico Militar de Cartagena, Spain.
the whole rifle is a test pressure system, very interesting
Probably my favorite pressure test rifle I've seen in person was the 1918 Mauser T-Gewehr that the National WWI Museum had on display some years back. Imagine the size of the copper cylinder that thing would crush for pressure testing. I don't think they had the full setup with the actual thread-in piston for it, but the added ring that it would thread into was quite sizable. If I recall correctly it also had it's sights offset to account for the massive ring and piston setup that would have blocked the normal, in-line sights. My best guess as to why that would even be a problem is that they might have been using it for accuracy testing as well.
@@jjohnston94 Fair enough, the threaded hole and the reinforcing ring around it seemed pretty beefy though. Either way though, still a neat piece to see. They get some darn nice stuff at that museum and they try to cycle through a lot of what they have in storage in the changing special exhibitions fairly often, makes me glad I live close enough to drop by every so often and see what's on display for the month. I still drool (figuratively, of course) over their really nice example of a Russian contract Winchester 1895 every time I see it.
Very interesting.
Best oddball rifle seen in person is a 1903 Springfield rifle converted to a .45auto test pistol. On display at Springfield Armory NHS.
I saw a 1916 Spanish Mauser pressure test rifle for auction once. I should have bought it.
very interesting part of gun history
Ooooo Young’s modulus of copper and deformation energy. Good Engineering topic!!
a crossover item for collectors of scientific instuments and gun enthusiasts
You can compress that copper plug with any amount of pressure, as long as the surface aero of your piston is big enough.
CUP doesn't take Overall Time of Active Pressure into account, since theres no measure of duration. In contrast to SAAMI PSI piezo-test, which can measure duration and blast pressures, CUP is like using a Ballistic Pendulum instead of a Chronograph.
That's so cool.
In -Soviet Russia- the Russian Empire, pressure tester tests you!
Gun pressure tests you!
This is a Russian Empire era Mosin-Nagant
TheMadSlavik D:
MOST INTERESTING !!
You ought to be able to convert it over. You would need a stress/strain curve for compressive strength (most of the available graphs are for tension) but then it should be feasible to convert over to psi.
I'm suddenly inspired to design a percussion-cap nutcracker. It'd make the holidays so much more fun. Maybe style it like a break-action revolver, with a single large chamber and piston in the cylinder to keep pieces from flying everywhere. Grandpa be like, "Son, hand me the Webley and the walnuts."
In the literature you often see pressure as in copper crush units. I disagree that it is not a direct method of reading pressure. Each disc I assume is good for only one test. Many people now use transducers and such I believe are still available for sales to individuals. You got me interested enough that I will probably do some research on it. By the way I had a job as part of an environmental team doing clean up work at a former arsenal on the charles river in Massachusetts. While we were there the workmen discovered a couple of rifles stored in some lockers. One was a springfield bolt action fitted with a huge ring of steel over the chamber area. I could not get close enough to see it very well. It went into an armory vault. I suspect it got destroyed and did not make it to a museum but I am not sure.
Hand loaders without pressure transducers frequently will check/measure the bases of fired cartridge cases for signs of pressure. If you get case head expansion and protruded primer cases one had better reduced the powder charge. Here is a brief discussion of rifle pressures: When you look at a loading manual with load data, you will usually see pressure ratings for stated load. Sometimes these are listed in PSI numbers, which most people correctly understand to be Pounds per Square Inch of pressure. However, powder-makers also commonly list pressure in CUP numbers. CUP stands for Copper Unit of Pressure. You may be asking - “What exactly is a CUP, and what is the origin of that unit of measurement?” You may also be wondering - “What’s the difference between CUP pressures and PSI pressures?” On Hodgdon’s Facebook Page, you’ll find answers to these questions. bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/04/copper-unit-pressure-defined-by-hodgdon/
Very cool.
this is so epic
Ian..the "copper crushers" method was always interesting to me.
I wonder how they determined max..by what number?