General Liu's Chinese Semiauto Rifle from WWI
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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The General Liu rifle (named for its designer - it never received an official designation that we know of) was China’s closest approach to an indigenous self-loading infantry rifle before World War II. Mechanically it used the same principles as the Danish Bang rifle - a muzzle cup captured some of the gases from firing and was pulled forward, moving a cam and lever that cycled the bolt. Liu was appointed head of the Hanyang Arsenal, and used the opportunity to put a new semiautomatic rifle into production.
The Pratt & Whitney company of Hartford was contracted to supply the machinery to mass-produce the rifle, and about a dozen sample rifles were built by P&W. They were tested in China and met with general approval, and the machinery was loaded up and shipped to Shanghai. Unfortunately, General Liu suffered a stroke and either died or was incapacitated (sources differ on this) before the tooling arrived, and it ended up sitting on the docks for years, as the rifle project foundered and never cam to fruition without Liu’s supervision. The tools were eventually sent to an arsenal and repurposed for producing other guns.
English and Chinese testing reports are here: www.forgottenwe...
/ forgottenweapons
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the manufacturer's marking
陸軍漢陽兵工廠製
陸軍 = Army
漢陽 = Han Yang (location)
兵工廠 = arsenal
製 = made
made by army Han Yang arsenal
the word on the cap is
自 = Self (I think they want to denote 自動, which means "move by itself" or auto)
普 = Normal
great translation, well done
Huh, neat
Thanks mate.
late reply, but thanks for the translation my man, real MVP
But how do you remember all the symbols? We have what 26 letters we put together. I don't understand how you can possibly have a different symbol for every word. That's one language you want to know from birth I think.
Estimated Price: $6,500 - $11,000
Sold for: $80,500
Yeah I bet the owner that was selling the gun was surprised by the amount of money he or she made.
some rich Chinese robber baron I'm assuming.
Holly shit
@Lectiuss I can't help but wonder how much it would have sold for if Ian hadn't done a video on it ;)
There’s only less than 13 of those rifles today. Obviously it would be sold at such a price. Those are the legit ones, they dont manufacture them anymore.
Before having seen anything of the video, I can already say "What a goddamn beautiful firearm". The dark wood, th old-style upper, the sights... Stunning :)
Except for the open area behind the receiver, I agree. They really should have slapped a dust cover on that; it would have prevented some potential malfunctions and made it better looking.
And helped with the worry the testers had about the action hitting soldiers in the face, if they weren't trained properly.
Damn this is a really smart design. Shame about that whole war thing getting in the way
Someone sounds a bit jealous.
No one talks smack to someone with a picture of Mike Stoklasa
Not the war that got in the way. More like stroke.
Ironic that a war delayed the production of a military weapon
All Roads Lead Here you are not explaining yourself adequately
Hey Ian, as usual a very very interesting video! I have one question: I have seen this kind of disconnect in a number of firearms on your show. Wouldn't that mechanism allow the rifle to fire fully automatic or at least to double fire when you're holding the trigger at juuust the right spot? I ask because the trigger is not actively disconnected by reciprocating bolt.
I would think it would be near impossible to be able to hold it in that insanely precise spot under recoil of all that mass. Also, there is always the possibility it's an incredibly well timed mechanism, to the point there is no conceivable difference from the point when the sear can let it fly to the point the 'arm' breaks free.
Good points. I think you're definitely right on the first one. The second one I'm not so sure, because as the parts wear, and I'm assuming that they are wearing somewhat unevenly, that precise timing could be thrown way off. But maybe these parts just don't wear enogh during whatever life time this firearm has.
I'm just talkin theories. ;-D
Striker would follow and probably not fire the gun
I was thinking something similar, but the the triger catch looks too small to actively hold the triger in the firing position. The thing is if you *enlarge* the bottom of the triger catch, it should hold the sear down with the triger being held back, creating a full auto rifle (with all of 6 shots in the mag well).
Looks to be a VERY well thought out rifle. Looks no more complicated to strip and clean than a modern assault rifle (although the only one I'm familiar with is the SA80-A2, the nice H&K reworked model), maybe with the exception of the recoil spring removal. Should be an easy conversion to a thumb screw type action though. Regarding the locking system, it looks as if were the pin to deform at all then the load would transfer directly onto the bolt body via that nice strong looking material in front of the lever. I'm really REALLY impressed with it to be fair. Looks like a nice idea. I mean, the gas system would be a doddle to clean compared to most. Fitted with a shorter barrel and a longer double stack single feed box magazine this wouldn't have looked out of place into the M14 era.
Old rifles like this just fascinate me
These early auto loaders are so fascinating!
What else are you going to find, a Chinese rifle made in CT! A truly unique piece I will give you that. I enjoyed the video and you did a good job filming it, Thanks.
I'm a little late to this video, I thought the General Liu Rifles were fairly rare, interested to see what they sold for at the auction
Designed in China and manufactured in USA. That is rare.
Too bad there isn't more info on General Liu as I'm curious as to how much contact he had with 1888/90 Mannlichers?
That open receiver. accident waiting to happen.
And the little end-cap should have been hinged, as not to get lost in the mud...
Otherwise quite a nice riffle.
Have you ever damaged or badly scratched a firearm that was going to be sold in an auction?
Are there any pictures of the bayonet? What did it look like?
Just out of curiosity was this gun in firing condition?
Yes, it was virtually brand new.
Awesome, i was worried because it was such an old rifle, thanks.
What calibre?
8x57
Annnd china missed out….. this is why people need assistants to finish stuff when things go wrong….
Liu suffered cerebral hemorrhage from that stroke, and never recover, not died right away but passed away in 1929. He was always getting pushed by a few warlords in China, so after he was in hospital, they just tried everything to ruin his works.
He was from my hometown(and sort of related), one of my great-grandmother come from that family, so I've heard of him, I was only told he was more like a old school professor than a general.
Thanks!
Yingdi Xu had the commies not started their rebel against the ROC government China would be much better off today.
"China would be much better off today"
Up for debate, we are unable to tell if the corruption would be fixed, if China continued as it was, it would rival Italy for corruption in Government. As for the death toll, the possible purges conducted out of paranoia wouldn't rival that of Mao's death tolls but would reach the millions for sure. As for industrializing the Nation, it would be a slow process assuming the US stayed out of assisting China rebuild and China would remain a 3rd World Country today.
@@HaloFTW55 well ,reaching the same level of Italy would be difficult
@@yingdixu9213 The mandate of heaven really fucked china up in the end. It's amazing an empire with succession laws of basically 'if you're strong enough to seize power then you're emperor' survived.
Damn, a lot of people like to make fun of Chinese firearm lineage but this general liu back in 1916 knew what the fuck he was doing!
The Liu as way was ahead of his time, and the design isn't some copy like many other nations attempting to start. I'm curious if Liu created anymore gun designs such as pistols.
+V Guyver It is unlikely that he would have been aware of some of the german and Hungarian prototypes out around that time right? The system seems more akin to some 20s and 30s designs, but even most of those weren't really good. Can you imagine something similar happening today? Like if apple started producing laser guns for China today decades ahead of the states lol.
Meh I have seen a laser shotgun before.
The only practical lethal-purpose laser weapons thus far are ship-mounted.
Amperzand They need a large amount of power. Trying to miniaturize one into a small arms class of weaponry is going to be impractical.
For its time, this is actually a rather good design. It seems that bad timing was the thing that killed this rifle.
The receiver marking says, "Manufactured by the Army Hanyan Arsenal."
PW did the work of making stamping tools
Pre114 thanks!
It‘s Hanyang😄
it depends on the Latin or Roman phonetics, both are correct forms
@@xianyu2094 it's later explained in the video that pw manufactured it.
Hey Ian!I have submitted a Chinese subtitle for the video,which I believe is 100% correct on meaning,but fail to reproduce your unique speaking habit and rhyme,that's just too hard for me.
In fact,the most parts of the subtitle have been finished months ago.However,I'm a senior in highschool.In Taiwan,it means that I could have barely time to do what I want to do and what I think is important to do.
My English listening and reading abilities is far beyond the average degree of Taiwanese highschool student,while my writing ability isn't remarkable so my grammar might be very weird.
As the first self-loading rifle design by Chinese,General Liu's SLR is definitely an interesting piece of Modern Chinese History.It's simply named '自裝槍' because there wasn't any other self-loading rifle had been recognized by Chinese!
1916 is the start of the warlord age,and General Liu's losing control on Han Yang Arsenal was largely because his relationship with the warlords who's occupying Han Yang(Wu Pei Fu and Cao Kun)wasn't very well.
A source of information said Liu had submit the rifle design to the rifle trial of U.S. Army in 1918.It also mentions that Julian Hatcher's "Hatcher's Notebook" have contents about his meeting with General Liu.
Even if the SLR had started production successfully,China didn't have the ability to produce the material needed for the self-loading rifle manufacture at that time.It means that the SLR would only be sent to the elite troops of the warlord who was controlling arsenal,instead of National Revolutionary Army or the Northern Government.
Well,once NRA took over Han Yang in 1926,the SLR might have the chance to become a main rifle in Second Sino-Japanese War and China Civil War.If they had been captured by PRC,they would have a chance to show up in Korean War!
There is no denying that Liu's SLR has the potential to develope into a great self-loading rifle design.The locking mechanism is similar to Mannlicher 1886/1888 because there were copies of them had been manufacturing in China since Ching Dynasty.It seems that the SLR can easily adopt the bolt design of Mannlicher 1895,getting rid of the durability problem.
The muzzle cup system of SLR is very likely to be much more reliable than Bang rifle,since it directly use the blowing power of the firing instead of redirecting them to push the piston.There's a lot to say,but I'm a little bit lazy to do that...
General Liu's another work is the copy of Browning M1917,which was produce in Han Yang Arsenal after 1921.
It's a shame that most of the Chinese people still believe that the first self-loading rifle in China is Garand,another little number of them know ZH-29,hardly anybody have heard of Liu's Rifle.
Let the forgotten designer and rifle never be forgotten,that's the reason why I made the subtitle.
楊程鈞 4:50是「中風」，不是「打擊」
翻译的真的很好，您的英文水平很高
翻译得大好！BTW这枪一般就叫做 刘氏自装枪， 没有正式的型号
Interesting!
Great work, buddy. 感谢你的翻译。
This rifle looks 10 maybe 20 years old its in remarkable condition.
sounds like a unique weapon from Fallout 3.
Why not 4?
eh the chinese were not mentioned as much in 4 as they were in 3
What about the Chinese sub and it's Ghoul captain?
true, but thats why i said "not as much"
MUCH better game
Born in 1869? You already know this man is gonna be successful.
That'd be scary, having that bolt flying right at your eyeball, still a big shame that Liu couldn't finish this project.
8:36 "The bullet of course goes out this hole in the middle."
I learn so much about fire arms watching this NGL.
If it exists, I would love to see a report from Pratt & Whitney regarding what they thought of the rifle. Not as a manufacturing project, but as a practical battlefield weapon
Makes it probably the only rifle in human history, that got not built, because a war started...
liquidminds there are many countries that abandoned their self loading rifle programs at the outbreak of WW1.
the SAFN49 wants to have a talk with you.
Makes you wonder if Bolt Action Rifles would have become obsolete much earlier if WWI hadn't created such a surplus of them.
You must be new to this Channel....
liquidminds you're in for an education bud
For as early of a semi-auto as that is it is impressively simple.
As someone from Connecticut, it's really interesting how much the state contributed to firearms history
Sad to see how CT,MA and other states where the US firearm industry started have become so anti gun.
@@1978garfield be scared sheep
It is we had so many legendary guns come from each state now they are forgotten
@nickbuckley4371 it keeps Ian in business
@@1978garfield Not anti-gun, but more accurately pro-"strict rules on getting and owning a gun". I've lived in both CT and MA and know many people who have gone through the process and happily own handguns and long guns.
“自” （zi）is short for 自動 which means automatic，“普” （pu）is probably short for 普通 which means normal/regular.
Thank you
I love how whoever was editing the video actually used the right Chinese national flag in 1910s :D
good work
Interesting, a product made in the US for China, will we ever see that again? And fine craftsmanship at that!
some of the chips used in phones are made in USA, also some of the software is made and exported too, you could argue that software is finely crafted...
Not as of today with Trump's administration in office. If the US tried something like this today, the US would probably put trade tariffs on parts for the gun that are double the price of the gun itself and there would be no profit for the Chinese whatsoever.
Before the Communist Party took over after WWII, Sino-American relations were pretty good and they were close allies in World War II, but unfortunately the Communists took over so the West rejected China from that point onwards, hence history between the West and China.
@@stargate12345678 eh, not entirely. The US actually told Mao to finish his civil war in 1949, but by the time Mao got all the troops and transport in place, this idiot by the name of Kim invaded south Korea and scared the US that communism was trying to take over the world. And that scare led the US to tell Mao that he could invade Taiwan only after going through the Seventh Fleet.
@@stargate12345678 There was also a period (~1970-1989) when the two countries were sorta-allies against the Soviet Union.
General Liu: the Chinese version of The Dukes of Hazzard.
nah, i'm think that's the emblem/crest of Matsudaira clan, later became the emblem of Tokugawa
@Neurofunke that is the Tokugawa Hollyhock
the auction site says it sold for $80,500! Wow.
Damn, that single-shot mechanism is the work of a genius.
Hi Ian just wanna say thank you for all the good and rare information you shared with us. your pronunciation of the chinese arsenal names are almost perfect already. I easily understood them: "Han yang" and "gong xian". around 8:00 in the video while showing the semi-auto / single shot switch, the characters on the switch shows as 自 (short form of 自動, which means automatic. character 自 itself means self) and 普(short form of 普通, which means normal) . despite the rifle itself has semi-auto and single shot releasing modes, the markings actually means "auto" and "normal". he could have chosen another character 半 which refers to semi. this still does make sense as back in 1910s there isn't any infantry rifles that has full automatic mode in the chinese market so that I guess mark it as "automatic" is still acceptable. in addition, they probably treated bolt action single shot rifles as common and normal , while semi-auto rifles were something new and fancy, thus mark single shot mode as "normal" also makes sense. I actually wonder if there could be any other rifle model that marks the firing mode same way as this general liu's. probably very low possibility as most of the later chinese guns were marked with symbols or characters that directly translates to single, semi, and auto to avoid confusion between semi-auto and auto.
The only think I used to not like about your videos is that they ended to quickly. Thanks for 2 days in a row of 20 minutes of gun goodness.
HEAR HEAR
I've never seen the Pre-Communist Chinese flag before. It's pretty.
TheZombieburner Seychelles flag is the best IMO
That's the Pre-Republic
@@HaloFTW55 that's the first Republic
@Zachary Durocher Yes five major ethnic groups.
Red: Mandarin/Han
Yellow: Manchu
Blue: Mongolian
White: Muslim (Uyghur and Donggan)
Black: Tibetan
@@ericlai1659 Then there's Manchukuo's use of that:
Red - Japanese
Blue - Mongols
White - Han Chinese
Yellow - Manchus
Black - Koreans
Pratt and Whitney Tool is an entirely different company from the famous Pratt and Whitney Aircraft engine maker. Pratt and Whitney Aircraft licensed the name Pratt and Whitney from the well known toolmaker when they began making engines on the 1920’s. Pratt and Whitney Tool made some pretty big machine tools, including a 12x30” lathe as recently as the 60s. They still exist in Hartford but they now stick to fine measurement tools.
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
I have always loved the 1st few generation of semi autos(rifles and pistols).
All of the different designs, concepts and ideas has always intrested me.
Imagine what might have happened during the Japanese invasion if China had gotten this into production and all their troops had been armed with it.
It had the potential to turn the situation around. It wouldn't have fixed the strategic issues though.
It would be way,way harder for the japanese troops to break through, China might actually hold out fengtian against the japanese, but supply problems and desertions were a common problem on china at that time, but i think Japan would think twice before staging marco polo incident.
the selector says"自“ (self) for self-loading semiauto, and “普” (reg) for regular bolt action
Would the sights be in Meters or a Traditional Chinese measurement?
I have no idea.
The report is in Chinese measurements, so it's safe to assume either or.
Around WW1 every country used their own unit of measurement so this rifle is likely in Chinese units of distance
Their is also a Pratt and Whitney in Alabama. I believe it started life around Eli Whitney's cotton gin. Their was a building still standing, just a few years ago that had a Pratt and Whitney carriage company sign still on the front. This is located in Prattville Alabama. I wonder if Daniel Pratt had anything to do with the name of the town... lol.
"It's a little hazy exactly what happened here" Early C20th Chinese history summed up right there.
do you always need an owner's permission to take apart the weapon, or is it for instance RIA's policy that guns are examined by the auction house (and you are somehow involved with that)?
Irisviel Einzbern I'm pretty sure there have been ones up for auction that he couldn't take apart, but I can't remember whether it was because he wasn't allowed to by the owner or because he decided it was too valuable to risk
ekmad is there a video for that last thing you mentioned?
I love some of the stories Ian tells on this channel. I'd never have known any of this..
Receiver marking says "Made by Hanyang Army Arsenal". Firing mode selector says 自 for auto (semi-auto) and 普 for normal (Manual). Gosh I was shocked when I see such well made rifle by Chinese arsennal of that time but it was actually made in US... I wonder if there are Chinese made ones to compare with.
Thanks.
Chinese, even got the tool to built it, can't produce much. Industry sucks so much that sth like this rifle that need good quality of steel is sth Chinese can't produce that time, not mentioning the illiterate farmer based work force.Really, it is a dream that is no way close to affordable for Liu, for the Chinese
After 30 years, the chinese would put type 56 semi--just the SkS, as their prime weapon
well at least this gun now lives on in BF1 as a DLC medic rifle
Ian,
Are they letting you disassemble the guns so future owners have a nice howto disassemble/reassemble instruction video?
I can't help but wonder... ;-)
Probably helps to raise sale price, too.
Will we ever see the Walter WA 2000 sniper rifle on the channel?
If I ever find one.
Forgotten Weapons Are they really that rare?
there were only 176 ever made.
theres only like 12 in the US and one guy owns 9 of them
That's mass issue for forgotten weapons.
The Chinese on the rifle mean land army Han yang armory manufacture
My last name is Liu too XD
Me too XD (ignore this username, I rather use a different identity online).
At 5:19
It is "Gong Xian(鞏縣 /巩县) arsenal". Gong Xian is the name of the location.
Oh, at 8:11, the character "普" from word "普通" means "regular" and the character "自" from word "自動"(automatic) means (semi)automatic.
You can put this in the BF1 playlist now.
This rifle must be quite impossible to field strip. How would a soldier access the important parts if something in the mechanism broke or stopped working in battle ?
As long as the locking block didn't fail, it turns into a straight pull bolt action and you keep fighting.
All a college level vintage weapon course really needs is to have the curriculum consist of this channel.
TIL you've actually made a video on this rifle before, with Bin Shih
陸軍=Army
漢陽=The name of the Arsenal
兵工廠=Arsenal
製=Made By
自→自動=Automatic
普→普通=Ordinary
This may be a scary rifle to shoot... the whole bolt carrier rushes straight at your aiming eye like an express train, just like in a Sjögren shotgun.
Imagine getting your face too close to the bolt and just getting absolutely *SMACKED*
The markings shown around 6:59 say "Made in Army Hanyang Arsenal" . Here is a Google Translate link so you can get an idea of how it should be pronounced (translate.google.com/#zh-CN/en/%E9%99%B8%E8%BB%8D%E6%BC%A2%E9%99%BD%E5%85%B5%E5%B7%A5%E5%BB%A0%E8%A3%BD).
Rock Island's page listed an estimated price between 6500 and 11000 dollars for it, and it sold for over 80k, wow.
Yes, two people got into a bidding war over it.
One of the best guns in BF1
i get one service star per day using that gun LOL
M1903 SKS.
A clean design, sad it never had the chance to be developed to a more effective model.
There seems to be too many failure modes in that design, lots of pivots, which makes me question the longevity. Having said that, it is very cool.
I guess they would have corrected weak points that appeared over time and the design would have evolved in several stages. After all, this is like 1912, not much experiences with self-loading rifles present back then. Yes, very cool : )
Jerry Long Good points.
Just unlocked the last variant of this fine rifle in BF1.
which makes no any sense.(i mean the history, not about your gaming skill)
KainetheWusky its my fav medic rifle
KainetheWusky nice, high five furry friend :D
The receiver markings are ancient Chinese proverb. Say 'Every action equal & opposite' and I believe it says 'dummy' on that last bit there.
Cheek weld that thing wrong and you would wish for a scope ring black eye instead.
I much prefer General Liu’s sweet and sour chicken...
Kind of sad that this rifle never got implemented as a military firearm.
I'm not saying that the concept is perfect, but it looks fairly straightforward. I wonder how chinese rifles would have developed from that point, instead of Chinese firearms basically being knock offs of Soviet designs.
There are two different countries named "China". Ian is talking about the Republic of China (ROC), which ruled the entire country from 1912 -1949. The Peoples Republic of China (PRC) took over the country in 1949 and banished the ROC government to the island of Taiwan. Because the PRC is communist, they were very good friends with the USSR, and shared technology.
@@joecary3586 The so-called frend between USSR and china only exist from 1950 to 1960s.
sadly the Republic of China goverment in that time, mor like to buy the foreign weapon than design their own. And in history most of the rifle in china in that time were the German Gewehr 88 and mauser 1924, the japan Tpye 38 and the Russian Mosin-Nagant.
Being there's no proof marks it's quite possible that rifle was never even fired.
Or it wasnt german lol
For a gas trap system, I think that's pretty elegant. It's definitely got issues, but the rifle body seems to keep everything inside nice and clean.
I see the gun was sold for a whopping $80,500. I bet it was a rich Chinese collector - I really hope that they have the initiative to use the gun to reverse engineering and start manufacturing these rifles for civilian use (maybe not in China, the US) I'd love to use the only Chinese-designed and engineered gun in the early 20th century if I visit America.
First of all, it's "Republic of China", "Republic of Formosa", "Formosa", or "Takasago /K/oku".
Not "China" as the name has been associated in recent times (the past 20 years) with degenerate ChiComms. Not like any modern nation deserves to use the name after Mao.
Please don't associate the venerable Taiwanese Empire with a disgusting country like the PROC.
Second of all, the lettering at the base of the barrel is: Loo Jiun (Land Army) Han Yang Bing Gong Tsang (Hanyang Arsenal) Zhi (made). Probably translates to: Made for Army by Hanyang Arsenal.
动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 劉曉波动态网自由门
zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/汉阳兵工厂
People who care:
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The first marking on the muzzle cap：“自” directly translates into "by one's self", which can be interpreted as an abbreviation for “自动”---"automatic", which is what semiautomatic used to be called before fully automatic existed. The second marking on the muzzle cap: "普" is an abbreviated form of "普通" which means "regular". Given how most other rifles functioned back then, "regular" refers to a bolt action firing mode.
It looks like if an m1 garand and an svt and the gewehr 43 had a baby
Makes you wonder how much of a difference these would have made during the Sino-Japanese war if they had been adopted and mass produced.
Man, did Søren Bang have the greatest name for a firearms designer or what?
如果那時投入對日抗戰那就好打許多！。
What caliber is it ?
8mm Mauser
Is the 8mm Mauser the same as 7.92x57mm Mauser?
Yes, they are the same.
Okay thanks.
"For whatever reason, kinda fell off the back of the truck and never made it ah to China"...LOL!
thanks. any chance u can test fire it and compare it with the Garand?
let's go
Apart from the resignation of Liu in 1920, there were several other problems that stopped the development of this rifle.
Firstly the steel that was used for this gun must be imported, then the bullets made in Hanyang had different quality from batch to batch, which caused the bolt to travel at different speed, resulting failure of ejection(too fast) or unable to perform a full cycle(too slow). Also the spring was a big problem as well since they were of very poor quality.
Overall China lacked both the infrastructure and money to make this gun a standard issue
You mention having the testing documents in the video, how about a little link love?!
www.forgottenweapons.com/early-semiauto-rifles/general-liu-rifle/
Thanks Ian, I completely dork out on reading testing notes!
Hey Ian. You demonstrated a real knowledge of firearms with this one. Looks like a whole mess of patents (violated)?
Man I feel really sorry for General Liu Looks Like that bad fortune/Luck has gotten the best of both him And this weapon.
Liu tried so hard and got so far but in the end doesn't even matter!
that gun is surprisingly reminiscent of an SKS. although, given the dates, perhaps the SKS is reminiscent of this rifle.
It looks like a weird combo of the Cei Rigotti and the Luger Prototype Rifle
I think if this actually got some tweaking and R&D, this rifle could have shown legitimate promise, but sadly it is impossible to ever know.
Beautiful design. Shame it never got into production. Thanks for the very clear explanation and video of the Bang operating system also.
That said Mauser pattern bolt action rifles that ended up being used in China are functional, simple, reliable, accurate. But a self loading rifle would have been useful in World War II.
Looks like a handful of the self loading Czech ZH-29 rifle was used by China in WWII.
Before China lost it's imagination, lovely gun
Ron Lynquist when they simply began just copying everything
Chinese has never been about the individual, if one person does something well, copy the shit out of it. Westerners see that as lazy and cheap, but it's a different way of thinking.
So, by your reasoning this gun was made nearly 2000 years after they "lost imagination" under Confucian Buddhist and Taoist thought.
you might be surprised by how ingenious some of the copies floating around actually are...
Well, China has different thinking process. Copying is the quickest way to learn how it works. But in the Western eyes, it's just lazy and illegal sometimes.. China doesn't have strict copyright law, cause in the Chinese culture, any design can be shared with others. People will respect the original design, but trying to make it better. Just like the AR15, or AK series. Everyone is copying and trying to make it better
That is not the China we know today. 'That' is now Taiwan. And Taiwan has one of the best rifles in the ar family, the t-91.
September 8, 1916
Army Materiel Command’s test in Nan-Yuan Proving Grounds on the new rifle by General Liu Qing-En, referred to as the self-loading rifle (‘SLR’)
Details of the SLR are as follows:-
Caliber - 7.9mm
Length - 703.1mm
Muzzle Velocity - 780m/s
Weight - 5kg with bayonet attached
Firing rate - 50 rounds/minute
Magazine capacity - 6 round clip internal magazine
The report by Army Materiel Command on the test-firing of Chief Superintendent Liu’s SLR goes on to describe the major parts of the SLR (Report also details the test-firing of an anti- aircraft machine gun modeled on the Danish Madsen gun) as follows:-
i) Muzzle and gas regulator
ii) Barrel and Receiver (sliding block)
iii) Boltcarrier
iv) Operating mechanism (piston, cocking piece, driving spring & buffer spring)
The SLR is heavier than the average infantry rifle by 1 catty (Chinese unit of measurement, equivalent to around 604.8 grams during the administration of the Republican government but has been revised by the PRC government to be equivalent to 500 grams) and consist of a total of 94 parts. Briefly, the self loading mechanism uses gas expelled by the cartridge and as the round leaves the barrel, the muzzle gas trap cap (with three holes for adjustment) starts extending forwards triggering the operating mechanism which moves the bolt carrier rearwards extracting and chambering the next round as well as locking the bolt. When all the rounds are expended, the bolt is unlocked and the loading chamber is exposed. If the user wishes to convert the SLR from ‘self-loading’ to ‘manual’ (single shot bolt), he can do so by turning the muzzle gas trap cap clockwise, sealing the cap and seizing the self loading function.
During initial trails, an example of the SLR manufactured by the Han Yang Arsenal was tested and the self loading mechanism seized. According to Superintendent Liu, the fault lies with the driving spring which was hand-made due to a lack of machinery at the arsenal and therefore not up to the required tolerances. Following this, an example of the SLR manufactured in America was tested and went through 6 magazine clips with no issues or stoppages. A rough calculation placed the firing rate at 40 rounds per minute based on a magazine clip of 6 rounds. However there were issues with target acquisition and aiming, although recoil is minimal, the ejection action and gas action at the muzzle gas trap cap
inadvertently causes the muzzle to climb which cannot be negated as the entire weight of the rifle is supported the firer’s left arm.
In addition, due to inconsistencies in the propellants of the cartridges fired by the SLR, stoppages occurred when the bolt was unable to lock or when the driving spring engaged too quickly. Another point to note was the tendency of the sliding block receiver to run into the face of the firer, in particular since most of the firers are used to bolt action rifles with action of length 10cm or less. This was no fault of the design of the SLR but emphasis should be placed upon this during training. Further, during manual fire (bolt action), there were instances of “double feeding”. Otherwise, the SLR had no faults.
There has been no developments in this nation’s firearms for sometime now, Superintendent Liu’s effort has been validated both in theory and in practice and the results are promising in the particular the results of the test is impressive. We note that the SLR functions best in repeating fire and although this expends vast amounts of ammunition, there are occasions where this may be called for.
September 13, 1916
Minutes of the Meeting of the Army Materiel Command
The following were discussed:-
i. The SLR is indeed heavier than the standard infantry rifle.
ii. Steel needed for production must be imported.
iii. The raw material costs per weapon must cost more than 2 Yuan (currency denomination of the then Nationalist Government) over the current infantry rifle.
iv. Whether the muzzle gas trap cap will be affected by dust and dirt and whether it can be turned smoothly and effectively in a battlefield situation is something that can only be addressed when the SLR is in general issue.
v. What is the bore erosion rate? For example, German made steel is affected by bore erosion after 5,000 rounds.
vi. Will the bolt carrier and sliding bolt overheat and seized?
vii. The rear of the SLR is exceedingly long, how will target acquisition and aiming be affected?
It is resolved that Superintendent Liu conduct further tests at the Officer Cadet School and thereafter modify the SLR accordingly and send them to the infantry unit for field tests along with the requisite manual and instructions. Further, the steel for the manufacture of the SLR should be purchased from Germany or Sweden. As for the ammunition, it should be purchased as the current stock is inadequate and inappropriate. Although we may have the capacity to forge steel and the arsenals have the capability to manufacture ammunition, the competency is far from desirable but can be overcome with further research and development.
Not saying it was a great system, but with the tooling and samples being made in the US what’s the likelihood that the US Army knew about it and took a look?
If you release the safety will the gun immediately fire since all it's doing is holding back the striker?
@Heath En Ovthanorth so what? sorry for necropost this just seems kind of racist lol
My question is about the 8mm mauser ammo that it used; was it able to handle the basic milsurp ammo that was also used in mauser bolt actions? I ask because I know that semi-autos tend to be restricted on the powder type used due to the velocity being too great and bending, shearing, or breaking internal parts like op rods.
What a cool story, and nice looking rifle. Shame that it got lost in the annals. Tripped at the finish line.