It's worth noting that pinfire carried on for way longer than we tend to think. Pinfire shotguns and revolvers show up in catalogues until ca.1940, manufacture of cartridges continued as late as the 1940s routinely and for specialist users with shotguns until the 1960s.
That’s how muzzle loaders and pre-1900’s firearms designs are treated in many states in the US, and are not considered a firearm federally, so it’s treated as any other item you can buy. Also several states have “primitive weapon” hunting seasons along with bow season where you can use these guns or crossbows so you can hunt earlier or later in the year, while “gun” season is usually 2-2.5 months long (for deer).
Only because the ammunition is considered to be obsolete. Which in fact it is. Pin Fire weapons are given the status of Antique and can be held without licence.
@@user-ug5xr2gb6j Utah has muzzleloader and archery seasons that are before the general rifle season our deer hunting season in Utah is like ten days two weekends sandwiching a week and that’s it
I find Ian's ability to talk fluently and comprehensively on his subjects very impressive - no obvious cuts, edits or autocues, just knowledge and wisdom. Bravo!
Hg fulminate is only useful for sulfur containing propellant, specifically black powder. Hg fulminate slowly degrades, releasing mercury vapor which rapidly embrittles brass. Sulfur in the propellant stabilizes mercury vapor to mercury sulfide, aka the relatively inert mineral cinnabar. Still, combustion heat reduces HgS to elemental mercury. The next priming compound was chlorate, primarily potassium chlorate (KClO3) with antimony trisuldide and traces of red phosphorus, approaching Armstrongs Mixture, the toy cap gun fame. This kept brass embrittlement away but residues are corrosive and if quartz frit were added for rimfire sensitivity, causes erosion. The non corrosive, non erosive priming mix is lead styphanate, a cousin chemical to TNT. Styphanic acid is trinitro resourcinol, resourcinol is dihydroxyl benzene. Toluene is methyl benzene. Styphanic acid is a stronger acid so it forms lead salts readily which do not affect brass cases detrimentally. The lead imposes higher bond strains which improves impact sensitivity. Lead styphanate priming is still the most stable impact priming.
Mercuric Fulminate based primers seemed to serve the British Empire / Commonwealth for a considerable time; finally being phased out in the 1960s. India and Pakistan were still churning out mercuric-primed .303 ammo into at least the late 1970s. Observant types will have noticed that ALL of the Mercuric-based primers have COPPER cups. This is because Mercury is not just a nasty, cumulative toxin, but it DESTROYS brass. Metallic Mercury disrupts the copper / zinc alloying in brass. This is why once fired "surplus. .303 brass with copper primers tend to crack and crumble a while after firing; The detonation of the Fulminate compound releases a spray of metallic Mercury into the brass cartridge case. It is also "interesting" to handle during the manufacturing process. Reading the chapters on primer manufacture and handling in the classic British "Textbook of Small Arms" (1928 edition) provides much detail.and should discourage any enthusiast from trying to brew their own. The double whammy with these primers is that the freed Mercury wrecks the brass and the Chloride salts and sulphur compounds also ejected by the primer, eat the barrels. Hugely hygroscopic, the residue film from ONE shot will absorb moisture from the atmosphere. You can almost hear the rust forming, IF you fail to clean the firearm almost IMMEDIATELY after firing. A few pints of boiling water carefully funneled into the chamber and out the muzzle will be a good start. While the barrel is still hot-ish, a CLEAN dry patch for a final moisture and crud pickup, and then a light oiling as a "protectant". Repeat this process a few days later or before putting back in the wardrobe / gun safe. It would be a safe bet to say that many more .303 Lee Enfield / Metford / Martini barrels have been RUSTED out than SHOT out.
I've heard that the chemistry involved in making lead styphanate is extremely tricky and if it's done incorrectly, the resulting compound is extremely dangerous. What I've heard is the electrical field from a human body would cause it to detonate. Is all that urban legend?
Copper will stretch to seal the breach, but it doesn't spring back the way brass does, making case extraction marginal. It works OK for low power black powder cartridges.
As usual Ian is very informative, one minor addon would be that Boxer primed has anvil in primer while Berdan has the anvil as part of the case. There is no differnce in use but does make reloading easier with the Boxer style.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 I know what you're saying but maybe as part of the pinfire explanation it wasn't that relevant. since they both have the anvil it it's just a placement thing and this was already a really long video
@@mikepette4422 I suspect the reason is that he can't. Surely if he had more than the single woodcut of the Morse pattern cartridge, he would have showed it. I was just curious as neither Berdan or Boxer primers are considered to be a direct development from the Morse system.
Boxer is easier to hand load/reload, but Berdan is simpler to mass produce from a logistical standpoint, hence it's continued use to this day alongside Boxer primers.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. I had always wondered why the pin fire system lingered in Europe and now I know why. I own a tiny delicate 7mm pinfire revolver for which my talented brother and I made dummy cartridges on his lathe. They and firing cartridges are so easy to make mechanically from brass rods that it is very understandable that they predated drawn brass cases.
@@ek8710 You just use a regular percussion cap inside the back of the case cavity sitting upside down with the pin sitting in the cup of the percussion cap. The hammer strikes the pin which srikes the fulminate with the bottom of the case cavity acting as the anvil.....BOOM !
Hei Ian I am from Norway and here we have a lot of pinfire guns everything from revolver and shotgun there is also a few rifles but the ammunition we have to make ourselves, it's fun to play around with, we use percussion caps inside the shelves and then we use silver to "weld" the primer hull and then we can reload it many times over,one shotgun shell in 16 gauge I reload 27 times ,I use the brass one from magtech for shotguns, thanks for all the information that you put on TH-cam. I have learned a lot from you over the years 🇺🇸🇳🇴so Greetings from Norway
I'm a metal detectorist in England and about three months ago I found a pinfire shotgun cartridge casing . The pinfire shotgun cartridge was first patented by Casimir Lefaucheux of France in 1832 and although it went through several revisions it fell out of use by the early 1860's , so in effect it was in general use for a period of only 30 years .
Talking about the Pualy guns, the first Gatling guns used an interesting self contained cartridge in his early models. It was basically just a iron tube that had a musket size nipple in the center of the back with a .58 cal hollow center and they would be fed in the gun similar to the later straight magazines were.
Henry VIII Tudor had a number of breach loading arquebuses what used iron cartridges but they were ignited by match or punk locks. Yeah, chunks of punky wood or fungus were set alight in a special cup holder on a spring loaded lock where it smoldered until the lock forced it into the priming (like stubbing out a cigarette in a tray of gunpowder)
Years ago I acquired a Belgian made 9mm pin fire revolver. Considering it a challenge, I decided to make a cartridge for it. After 8 hours of designing and lathe work, I came up with one, re-loadable, 9mm, pin fire case. I shot it in the gun, (black power of course), and it worked on the first try. I still have the revolver and the case in my collection.
@@winnon992; original pin fire rounds are collector items, and are usually too valuable to attempt to fire, (and even then would probability not functor).
As someone who works directly with deep drawing tools, I can attest that this is not so easy. Just drawing a cup with such a high length to diameter ratio is a challenge. Gets even worse when you have to taper and/or neck it down. And today we can do stuff in this field that would look like dark magic to someone in the early to mid 1800s.
We can do stuff in many fields today that might as well be magic in earlier centuries. Its kinda awesome when you stop and think about it. And kinda nutty when you think about how much farther we have to go.
USA total mechanical power by year: 1838- 5% steam 1860- *80% steam* Like so many advances, it's more about industrialization than sheer invention. It's easy to forget that guns from the early 1800's were made on machines driven by water wheels. Imagine trying to operate a lathe that's driven by a belt made of stitched leather. By lamplight.
A few chemical nit-picks :) Fulminate means a salt of fulminic acid (an isomer of isocyanic acid). Mercury fulminate is a pressure and friction sensitive high explosive but it was not much used after brass cartridges were introduced because the metallic mercury which is one of the products of the detonation degrades brass. So for more than 100 years fulminates have been obsolete for primers. Up until the 1950s most primer compositions used mixtures of a fuel (like sulfur) and a chlorate or perchlorate oxidizer. This is the classic corrosive primer composition. Non-corrosive primers usually use lead styphnate or one of the lead-free alternatives. Finally, detonation specifically means a reaction which is so fast that a supersonic shockwave is formed. High explosives detonate - low explosives deflagrate (burning which propagates at a subsonic rate). Neither gunpowder nor smokeless powder ordinarily detonate. The case is small enough that subsonic propagation allows essentially simultaneous reaction of the entire contents before there is time for the bullet to exit the muzzle.
Myself I believe the pinfire revolver partisan use in WW2 is very much a highly underappreciated European subject. Close range killing of a uniformed enemy garners the pinfire user a soldiers rifle or a constables sidearm and/or carbine. With some handy ammo.
The first time I saw a pin fire was at Oliver Lee Memorial State Park outside of Alamogordo, NM. There is a small museum inside and there was a shotgun with pin fire ammo. I hadn't even heard of pin fire but quickly realized how they worked.
In Finland, pinfire shotguns were used until about 1920. I have seen a reloading tool (made in Germany) for 16 ga pinfire shotshells. It was a quite tricky system, inserting a Berdan primer correctly aligned in a slot in the base of the shell and pressing the pin to a correct (safe) depth.
I like that we're getting more deep dive explanations but at the same time i kind of miss the hour long Q&A's. I'm getting gun Jesus either way so I'm happy lol.
Forsyth (the Reverend Alexander John Forsyth) lived about 6 miles away from me. :) A record of his first practical use of fulminating chemicals is cast in bronze on a plaque in the quad of King's College, Aberdeen, where he was educated. See that frequently. :)
I love this sort of content, that speaks to how we got to where we are currently and examines blind alleys along the way. Maybe something similar about needlefire? Thanks Ian.
It was also relatively easy to convert a percussion rifle/shotgun or revolver to use pinfire cartridges, whereas centerfire or rimfire conversions were much more difficult and you often lost ammunition capacity in revolvers (going from six shots to five) because of the rims of the cartridges taking up more space in the cylinder, a problem you didn't have with pinfire.
Not gonna lie, these chill historical videos, like that one you did about the development of the M1 Carbine, are my favorite of your videos. Also, I'm really hoping you end up doing a video on the Scorpion Evo 3, as I got one and it's my favorite PCC by a country mile.
Worth noting to that pinfire is really easy for a cottage gun smith to make ammo. Pins are easy . Holes are easy and don't even need to be perfectly central... you can use any primers you can find to reload so longs as they fit in the cartridge and don't need to be very well made as the primers don't need to be seated in a perfectly drilled hole with an anvil. making cases with a punch and simple die then trimed to length is easy.. using cast lead balls is easy ... centre fire require machine made cartridges
I found about a thousand rounds of pin fired munitions in a old attack in a trunk. No clue what calibre they are, when they were made or what to do with them.
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Billy the kid, commenting about gun safety etc... there's some deep level of irony in this. Please consider changing your name, or your personal politics hahah
Loved the video. This is the type of information that got me in to Forgotten Weapons in the 1st place, I love the answer as to 'why' something existed.
Thank you, Ian, for the very intense, informative review. I'd add that there were several attempts to move the Lefaucheux-style firing pin from the side of the cartridge into the center of its rear part, which made a lot of sense and was closer to the idea of the center fire cartridge. For example: Needham brothers /GB/ 1852; H. Smith /USA/ for Volcanic 'rocket-ball" 1955; etc.
If I met Ian in person, I'd probably like to just sit comfortably in a chair, drink margaritas and listen to him talk for 12 hours about whatever ancient guns he happens to have immediately at hand. That would be my idea of a day well spent.
Ian had mentioned that there was little development of repeating firearms other than revolvers, there are several reasons for that, chiefly among them: - Because there was no obturating case to prevent fouling from entering the action, reliable breech loaders were very difficult to design - Even after the development of metallic cartridges, because black powder burns so dirty, considerable research and development went into developing said cartridges in a way that would not so thoroughly foul the bore after even a modicum of rounds were fired as to render the weapon useless Ian also mentioned that during the American Civil War development of breech loading rifles came to a stand still; Congress actually ordered Springfield Armory not to do any development on future weapons designs, and instead focus solely on producing rifle muskets. That’s why the breech loading carbines of that period were the product of the private sector.
I love this video format. There is a lot more about gun history that are not the actual guns themselves and it’s good to see the feedback and the questions.
This touches on a question I've wanted to see Ian address. I've read a lot of "drop modern person into history" books, where invariably they introduce modern technology. My thought was, "drop Ian into the late 18th century, what firearms technology does he introduce?" The obvious thing is as good a breech-loading rifle as the existing machine tools will support. After watching this video, I'm thinking that while he'd go with a self-contained cartridge with a primer, it wouldn't be a full-brass centerfire cartridge. Unless maybe knowing the right alloy is enough?
I don’t have the time to nerd out on gun history- too many other rabbit trails I already chase. But, man, so I appreciate Ian doing the needing for me and making it informative and concise. You the man! And you look sharp in a 3 piece suit.
The Percussion Cap Nipple's was the name of my all wooden flute band back in the 80's. We played Jamaican folk music. What that's OG'S show 😆 Ian, loving these short but informative video's 👌 very nice sir very nice. Keep em coming babe 🤘🤘🙏
Awesome video. As always great quality and information. I have one question: Would Davisme or Perrin be the first to do center fire in a modern sense? Or were they to small scale? Again, awesome video. I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into making them.
Ian --- I like the new format for Q&A. In trying to throw two dozen questions into a single episode, it was obvious that the fullness of each topic could not be covered. Plus viewer comments can be better sorted through as they only cover one topic. I have learned a great deal from your videos. You have a wealth of deep knowledge that you pass along. I think this is one reason your channel is no popular. And okay, the cool beard style does help too. The new format is better at fulfilling the educational value of your efforts.
I enjoy these "Answer to this question" format, a lot. Makes it easier to me to determine if it will pick my interest or not (they usually do, anyway :-D).
I'd love to see Ians take on how bad the war could have been from his idea on the Us Civil War if Union forces adopted Pin Fire conversions instead of rolling with the standard ammunition we ran for the war. I mean if they made breachloader springfield conversions and these would this have made the union equipment extreemely better or worse then confederate arms of the time. Or would it just be seen as a expense only to the most mobile divisions to increase the ability to flank and fire in bulk
My uncle actually has a pin fire lefaucheux revolver from I believe the 1800s complete with some ammunition. Ive only seen it a few times but it is a really neat gun.
4:50 - "...and an anvil that prevents the hammer from just pushing a primer around." Theoretically, there's another possibility; if the hammer hits the primer at a high-enough speed, the primer's own inertia can serve as the anvil, removing the requirement for a separate physical anvil. In practice, good luck getting the hammer to move that fast.
I've always wanted a pinfire revolver. So far the closest I've gotten is that tiny little revolver that uses 2mm pinfire blanks. You can actually use them to launch little 9mm flares with a muzzle attachment, and by God it works remarkably well. I believe pinfire shotguns are still in use in Europe. There are kits out there to load your own pinfire cartridges currently. Though anyone who can operate a lathe would be able to make proper pinfire ammunition as well. Next time I come across one... 😏
You can easily find some nice pinfire revolvers if you live in Europe. You might even find one of those nice triple action Lefaucheux (slightly more expensive) Overall, they are pretty cheap and yea, some collectors oriented gunsmiths are producing 7, 9 and 12mm ammo. Pinfire Shotguns are even cheaper but really rarely used nowadays (less than the revolvers).
@@Loutral I'm in the United States. They don't seem to turn up here very often. I've seen a few in antique stores over the years, but they were low quality and in poor condition. Here neither the revolvers nor shotguns would be regulated by our gun laws since they're legally antiques. And I'm a gunsmith and a machinist, so coming up with the ammunition shouldn't be too hard. Hopefully a decent quality pinfire revolver will present itself some day. I do occasionally load black powder cartridges for some of my antique centerfire revolvers, and I've managed to accumulate a small supply of balloon head cases for the .32 and .38 S&W cartridges to be able to exactly duplicate the original black powder loads.
Two questions. First, I ran across a reference to a 1849 German Patented LeFancheux style revolver. And second, Casimir patented pinfire "pepper box" revolvers prior to 1850. Wouldn't both of these have made the Rollin White patent viod. Especially since the son patented a pinfite revolver design that predated the White patent
White only had to patent his design in the US, most countries did not allow non-citizens to patent their ideas, the 'patent' had to be assigned to a resident, and there was no reciprocity between countries.
@@brucelee3388 What I was referring to is that under US Patent Law, an invention had to be original. As for your comment about non Citizens not being able to file patents. Both England and France routinely allowed foreigners to file in their nations
The only times I’ve seen examples of pin fire are TINY tiny millimeter diameter and length rounds. And there were always some French ring revolver or pocket gun that really would make someone mad rather than do any damage. And I had always thought, why would that be popular? But we’re there larger, normal size cartridges like we have today that were pin fire?
I have a pin fire Derringer made into a tie clasp. It's a 3.2 mm pin fire cartridges with no bullet on the case. It's a noise maker only. Have 3 cartridges left for it. Got it back in the late 60's.
Forgotten Weapons is the adult version of Tales of the Gun. My 12 year old heart is happy and my adult head is engaged. History channel messed up getting rid of that show and not having Ian as a full time researcher/presenter/director/etc. ... Come to think of it, I'm glad that show is gone because Ian is so much better
I wish Polish gun law could allow pinfire side-by-side shotguns and 3-barrel shotguns to come back as the arms one can have without the necessity of registration permissions and all this ridiculous crap we still struggle against because of one, short guy...
I always wondered about the history of pinfire cartridges, they are a fairly common metal detecting find here in the UK, although finding a good one is rare as they're usually rotten.
Boxer type wrapped brass centre fire cartridges were still being made commercially up to the 1930’s as a cheaper item than drawn brass ones. Eley even trying tinned steel foil instead of brass to cheapen them even further. Drawn brass centre fire did not kill off others as completely or as soon as one imagines. We still have rimfire 0.220” today.
The question that kicked off this video provoked flashbacks to teaching (or attempting to teach) history. For most people, it’s not just a question of backward reasoning. The person on the street views nearly everything that has happened, all those Neanderthals, Egyptians, Romans, lords & ladies, you name it, as having occurred last Wednesday right before supper, say 4:30-5:00PM.
Where do needle guns fit into this chain of development? Before or after cap & ball? They seem like centerfire but using the back of the bullet as the anvil.
Have you checked out the cz 52 roller lock pistol . Another interesting aspect is the duel primer porting . It shoots comparable to .30 cal carbine in a pistol . Sorry this question is not on topic.
In my studies of revolvers and once found a reference to an 1848-1849 German patented LeFaucheux style pinfire revolver. I do know that there were pepper box pinfire revolvers which erte earlier, but that one was the earliest example with a barrel as well as a bored through cylinder. Which would easily pre-date the Rollin White patent. Could anyone link ne the German maker and patent?
Ian, Do you know or can you recommend a reputable person that can take a look and possibly do some restoration on a pinfire pistol? i had no idea what it was until I saw your other videos and this one has prompted me to ask. Thanks as always for such great content.
I had a cell phone in 1990... 50 cents a minute - monthly bills about $200. It replaced a radio-telephone which cost the same but was 10x bigger than the bag "cell" phone. Motorola Pulsar. Someone else paid for it.
I bought an 1854 Lefaucheaux Pinfire back at the end of the last century. Thank god they now make cartridge kits so i can make my own rounds. It was in a local gun shop i dont think they knew what it was and at the time you couldnt het rounds for it. I only paid $200 on a pistol that may or may not have been imported in the American Civil War.
You see that situation where one invention needs another to come first. The printing press couldn't happen until artists invented oil based paints thick enough to stay on the top of the letters. It was not all that many years between linseed oil paints coming on the scene and Gutenberg turning it into printing ink. That same basic ink is still used today.
To this day the Pauly breechloader remains at the top of my list of historically significant guns I want to own.... Oh if only I had know it was going to sell for such a good price at auction.
It's worth noting that pinfire carried on for way longer than we tend to think. Pinfire shotguns and revolvers show up in catalogues until ca.1940, manufacture of cartridges continued as late as the 1940s routinely and for specialist users with shotguns until the 1960s.
I have a pinfire pistol heavily engraved with a mafia curse dated 1967. Its been purposefully made single shot.
I'd imagine ww2 was probably the deathknell for them because pinfire guns were woefully obsolete and cartridges were more plentiful than ever
Gotta love crossover comments.
@@DiggingFrance ah yes, the escape prison pistol
@@lutymcshooty2556 That never occurred to me. It ended up in France, so maybe!
The cool thing in the UK is Pinfire is not considered a section 1 firearm cartridge, so anyone can own one.
I did not know that!
That’s how muzzle loaders and pre-1900’s firearms designs are treated in many states in the US, and are not considered a firearm federally, so it’s treated as any other item you can buy. Also several states have “primitive weapon” hunting seasons along with bow season where you can use these guns or crossbows so you can hunt earlier or later in the year, while “gun” season is usually 2-2.5 months long (for deer).
Only because the ammunition is considered to be obsolete. Which in fact it is.
Pin Fire weapons are given the status of Antique and can be held without licence.
Too bad that consideration probably won’t apply to machine guns and grenades when the Military adopts phasers and plasma rifles.
@@user-ug5xr2gb6j Utah has muzzleloader and archery seasons that are before the general rifle season our deer hunting season in Utah is like ten days two weekends sandwiching a week and that’s it
I find Ian's ability to talk fluently and comprehensively on his subjects very impressive - no obvious cuts, edits or autocues, just knowledge and wisdom. Bravo!
I've always wondered if he has a script or just pontificates 🤣
Hg fulminate is only useful for sulfur containing propellant, specifically black powder. Hg fulminate slowly degrades, releasing mercury vapor which rapidly embrittles brass. Sulfur in the propellant stabilizes mercury vapor to mercury sulfide, aka the relatively inert mineral cinnabar. Still, combustion heat reduces HgS to elemental mercury.
The next priming compound was chlorate, primarily potassium chlorate (KClO3) with antimony trisuldide and traces of red phosphorus, approaching Armstrongs Mixture, the toy cap gun fame. This kept brass embrittlement away but residues are corrosive and if quartz frit were added for rimfire sensitivity, causes erosion.
The non corrosive, non erosive priming mix is lead styphanate, a cousin chemical to TNT. Styphanic acid is trinitro resourcinol, resourcinol is dihydroxyl benzene. Toluene is methyl benzene. Styphanic acid is a stronger acid so it forms lead salts readily which do not affect brass cases detrimentally. The lead imposes higher bond strains which improves impact sensitivity. Lead styphanate priming is still the most stable impact priming.
"I know some of those words"
Thanks for the details. I've wondered about what compounds are used in primers.
Mercuric Fulminate based primers seemed to serve the British Empire / Commonwealth for a considerable time; finally being phased out in the 1960s. India and Pakistan were still churning out mercuric-primed .303 ammo into at least the late 1970s.
Observant types will have noticed that ALL of the Mercuric-based primers have COPPER cups. This is because Mercury is not just a nasty, cumulative toxin, but it DESTROYS brass. Metallic Mercury disrupts the copper / zinc alloying in brass. This is why once fired "surplus. .303 brass with copper primers tend to crack and crumble a while after firing; The detonation of the Fulminate compound releases a spray of metallic Mercury into the brass cartridge case.
It is also "interesting" to handle during the manufacturing process. Reading the chapters on primer manufacture and handling in the classic British "Textbook of Small Arms" (1928 edition) provides much detail.and should discourage any enthusiast from trying to brew their own. The double whammy with these primers is that the freed Mercury wrecks the brass and the Chloride salts and sulphur compounds also ejected by the primer, eat the barrels. Hugely hygroscopic, the residue film from ONE shot will absorb moisture from the atmosphere. You can almost hear the rust forming, IF you fail to clean the firearm almost IMMEDIATELY after firing. A few pints of boiling water carefully funneled into the chamber and out the muzzle will be a good start. While the barrel is still hot-ish, a CLEAN dry patch for a final moisture and crud pickup, and then a light oiling as a "protectant". Repeat this process a few days later or before putting back in the wardrobe / gun safe. It would be a safe bet to say that many more .303 Lee Enfield / Metford / Martini barrels have been RUSTED out than SHOT out.
Except alas for the byproducts of lead styphanate
I've heard that the chemistry involved in making lead styphanate is extremely tricky and if it's done incorrectly, the resulting compound is extremely dangerous. What I've heard is the electrical field from a human body would cause it to detonate.
Is all that urban legend?
Copper will stretch to seal the breach, but it doesn't spring back the way brass does, making case extraction marginal.
It works OK for low power black powder cartridges.
machin. no copper was not very good in black powder cartridges, custers men had extraction issues with the copper cases
As usual Ian is very informative, one minor addon would be that Boxer primed has anvil in primer while Berdan has the anvil as part of the case. There is no differnce in use but does make reloading easier with the Boxer style.
I was hoping that Ian would touch on Boxer and Berdan priming systems and how the Morse system differed from them.
Maybe this is his next video
@@eloiseharbeson2483 I know what you're saying but maybe as part of the pinfire explanation it wasn't that relevant. since they both have the anvil it it's just a placement thing and this was already a really long video
@@mikepette4422 I suspect the reason is that he can't. Surely if he had more than the single woodcut of the Morse pattern cartridge, he would have showed it. I was just curious as neither Berdan or Boxer primers are considered to be a direct development from the Morse system.
Boxer is easier to hand load/reload, but Berdan is simpler to mass produce from a logistical standpoint, hence it's continued use to this day alongside Boxer primers.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. I had always wondered why the pin fire system lingered in Europe and now I know why. I own a tiny delicate 7mm pinfire revolver for which my talented brother and I made dummy cartridges on his lathe. They and firing cartridges are so easy to make mechanically from brass rods that it is very understandable that they predated drawn brass cases.
What do you use for the priming material?
@@ek8710 You just use a regular percussion cap inside the back of the case cavity sitting upside down with the pin sitting in the cup of the percussion cap. The hammer strikes the pin which srikes the fulminate with the bottom of the case cavity acting as the anvil.....BOOM !
Hei Ian I am from Norway and here we have a lot of pinfire guns everything from revolver and shotgun there is also a few rifles but the ammunition we have to make ourselves, it's fun to play around with, we use percussion caps inside the shelves and then we use silver to "weld" the primer hull and then we can reload it many times over,one shotgun shell in 16 gauge I reload 27 times ,I use the brass one from magtech for shotguns, thanks for all the information that you put on TH-cam. I have learned a lot from you over the years 🇺🇸🇳🇴so Greetings from Norway
I'm a metal detectorist in England and about three months ago I found a pinfire shotgun cartridge casing . The pinfire shotgun cartridge was first patented by Casimir Lefaucheux of France in 1832 and although it went through several revisions it fell out of use by the early 1860's , so in effect it was in general use for a period of only 30 years .
could still buy them in the 1940s
@@kainhall Not in England .....
Ian has forgotten more about firearm history then most of us can ever hope to know.
Or he would have if he could forget things.
I was just thinking yeah I know this stuff and it's all thanks to this channels videos
now, watch the video he did on "I Found a Machine Gun: What Should I Do?" video and put things into perspective
What? You don't ever just sit down and film a video on a specialty topic, entirely in one take, without misspeaking and staying engaging throughout?
@@outsider344 Dude's not touched grass today yet, give the guy a break
Talking about the Pualy guns, the first Gatling guns used an interesting self contained cartridge in his early models. It was basically just a iron tube that had a musket size nipple in the center of the back with a .58 cal hollow center and they would be fed in the gun similar to the later straight magazines were.
Henry VIII Tudor had a number of breach loading arquebuses what used iron cartridges but they were ignited by match or punk locks. Yeah, chunks of punky wood or fungus were set alight in a special cup holder on a spring loaded lock where it smoldered until the lock forced it into the priming (like stubbing out a cigarette in a tray of gunpowder)
Years ago I acquired a Belgian made 9mm pin fire revolver. Considering it a challenge, I decided to make a cartridge for it. After 8 hours of designing and lathe work, I came up with one, re-loadable, 9mm, pin fire case. I shot it in the gun, (black power of course), and it worked on the first try. I still have the revolver and the case in my collection.
At times I’ve seen them for sale. I think it was Western Scrounger. Pretty Pricey though !
@@winnon992; original pin fire rounds are collector items, and are usually too valuable to attempt to fire, (and even then would probability not functor).
As someone who works directly with deep drawing tools, I can attest that this is not so easy.
Just drawing a cup with such a high length to diameter ratio is a challenge. Gets even worse when you have to taper and/or neck it down.
And today we can do stuff in this field that would look like dark magic to someone in the early to mid 1800s.
We can do stuff in many fields today that might as well be magic in earlier centuries. Its kinda awesome when you stop and think about it. And kinda nutty when you think about how much farther we have to go.
"In the future technology will be so advanced, that it would look like magic to a simpleton" - a quote i butched after hearing it somewhere
@@bryantprak7129 "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic in the eyes of those who don't understand it."
@@bryantprak7129 I mean hey, if you show racing and military technology to an average person NOW they'd still probably think it's outright magic
@@DrSabot-A you telling me An A10 Warthog doesn't fly on pixie dust and unicorn farts
USA total mechanical power by year:
1838- 5% steam
1860- *80% steam*
Like so many advances, it's more about industrialization than sheer invention. It's easy to forget that guns from the early 1800's were made on machines driven by water wheels. Imagine trying to operate a lathe that's driven by a belt made of stitched leather. By lamplight.
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A few chemical nit-picks :) Fulminate means a salt of fulminic acid (an isomer of isocyanic acid). Mercury fulminate is a pressure and friction sensitive high explosive but it was not much used after brass cartridges were introduced because the metallic mercury which is one of the products of the detonation degrades brass. So for more than 100 years fulminates have been obsolete for primers. Up until the 1950s most primer compositions used mixtures of a fuel (like sulfur) and a chlorate or perchlorate oxidizer. This is the classic corrosive primer composition. Non-corrosive primers usually use lead styphnate or one of the lead-free alternatives. Finally, detonation specifically means a reaction which is so fast that a supersonic shockwave is formed. High explosives detonate - low explosives deflagrate (burning which propagates at a subsonic rate). Neither gunpowder nor smokeless powder ordinarily detonate. The case is small enough that subsonic propagation allows essentially simultaneous reaction of the entire contents before there is time for the bullet to exit the muzzle.
Myself I believe the pinfire revolver partisan use in WW2 is very much a highly underappreciated European subject. Close range killing of a uniformed enemy garners the pinfire user a soldiers rifle or a constables sidearm and/or carbine. With some handy ammo.
pretty cool stuff! Its the technological segway between percussion cap and center fire.
The first time I saw a pin fire was at Oliver Lee Memorial State Park outside of Alamogordo, NM. There is a small museum inside and there was a shotgun with pin fire ammo. I hadn't even heard of pin fire but quickly realized how they worked.
In Finland, pinfire shotguns were used until about 1920. I have seen a reloading tool (made in Germany) for 16 ga pinfire shotshells. It was a quite tricky system, inserting a Berdan primer correctly aligned in a slot in the base of the shell and pressing the pin to a correct (safe) depth.
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This format with single questions is infinitely easier to watch.
These shorter videos are great. i usually don't watch the super long q and a videos because i'm not always interested in all the questions
I like that we're getting more deep dive explanations but at the same time i kind of miss the hour long Q&A's. I'm getting gun Jesus either way so I'm happy lol.
i'll be honest I hate Q & A's on any channel and I rarely watched them.
Forsyth (the Reverend Alexander John Forsyth) lived about 6 miles away from me. :)
A record of his first practical use of fulminating chemicals is cast in bronze on a plaque in the quad of King's College, Aberdeen, where he was educated. See that frequently. :)
I love this sort of content, that speaks to how we got to where we are currently and examines blind alleys along the way. Maybe something similar about needlefire? Thanks Ian.
It was also relatively easy to convert a percussion rifle/shotgun or revolver to use pinfire cartridges, whereas centerfire or rimfire conversions were much more difficult and you often lost ammunition capacity in revolvers (going from six shots to five) because of the rims of the cartridges taking up more space in the cylinder, a problem you didn't have with pinfire.
Not gonna lie, these chill historical videos, like that one you did about the development of the M1 Carbine, are my favorite of your videos.
Also, I'm really hoping you end up doing a video on the Scorpion Evo 3, as I got one and it's my favorite PCC by a country mile.
Scam ⬆️
Worth noting to that pinfire is really easy for a cottage gun smith to make ammo. Pins are easy . Holes are easy and don't even need to be perfectly central... you can use any primers you can find to reload so longs as they fit in the cartridge and don't need to be very well made as the primers don't need to be seated in a perfectly drilled hole with an anvil. making cases with a punch and simple die then trimed to length is easy.. using cast lead balls is easy ... centre fire require machine made cartridges
I found about a thousand rounds of pin fired munitions in a old attack in a trunk. No clue what calibre they are, when they were made or what to do with them.
hammer and a vise to hold them in
Shit I'll take them
Would you like to sell them?
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Why do you care what someone else wants?
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Billy the kid, commenting about gun safety etc... there's some deep level of irony in this. Please consider changing your name, or your personal politics hahah
Loved the video. This is the type of information that got me in to Forgotten Weapons in the 1st place, I love the answer as to 'why' something existed.
Thank you, Ian, for the very intense, informative review. I'd add that there were several attempts to move the Lefaucheux-style firing pin from the side of the cartridge into the center of its rear part, which made a lot of sense and was closer to the idea of the center fire cartridge. For example: Needham brothers /GB/ 1852; H. Smith /USA/ for Volcanic 'rocket-ball" 1955; etc.
If I met Ian in person, I'd probably like to just sit comfortably in a chair, drink margaritas and listen to him talk for 12 hours about whatever ancient guns he happens to have immediately at hand. That would be my idea of a day well spent.
just amazing to hear the history of things makes you appreciate how far we’ve come.
I really prefer these single topic q+a
Mostly because they make it much easier to find in the title what is in the video
Ian had mentioned that there was little development of repeating firearms other than revolvers, there are several reasons for that, chiefly among them:
- Because there was no obturating case to prevent fouling from entering the action, reliable breech loaders were very difficult to design
- Even after the development of metallic cartridges, because black powder burns so dirty, considerable research and development went into developing said cartridges in a way that would not so thoroughly foul the bore after even a modicum of rounds were fired as to render the weapon useless
Ian also mentioned that during the American Civil War development of breech loading rifles came to a stand still; Congress actually ordered Springfield Armory not to do any development on future weapons designs, and instead focus solely on producing rifle muskets. That’s why the breech loading carbines of that period were the product of the private sector.
This is an awesome video! I enjoy deep dives into the development of things.. thanks!
I love this video format. There is a lot more about gun history that are not the actual guns themselves and it’s good to see the feedback and the questions.
This touches on a question I've wanted to see Ian address. I've read a lot of "drop modern person into history" books, where invariably they introduce modern technology. My thought was, "drop Ian into the late 18th century, what firearms technology does he introduce?"
The obvious thing is as good a breech-loading rifle as the existing machine tools will support. After watching this video, I'm thinking that while he'd go with a self-contained cartridge with a primer, it wouldn't be a full-brass centerfire cartridge. Unless maybe knowing the right alloy is enough?
I don’t have the time to nerd out on gun history- too many other rabbit trails I already chase. But, man, so I appreciate Ian doing the needing for me and making it informative and concise.
You the man! And you look sharp in a 3 piece suit.
This is very interesting, I've Seen a pinfire bullet here in Italy years ago and I wondered where this come from
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I'm really liking this new style of Q & A.
The Percussion Cap Nipple's was the name of my all wooden flute band back in the 80's. We played Jamaican folk music.
What that's OG'S show 😆
Ian, loving these short but informative video's 👌 very nice sir very nice. Keep em coming babe 🤘🤘🙏
Awesome video. As always great quality and information.
I have one question: Would Davisme or Perrin be the first to do center fire in a modern sense? Or were they to small scale? Again, awesome video. I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into making them.
Ian --- I like the new format for Q&A. In trying to throw two dozen questions into a single episode, it was obvious that the fullness of each topic could not be covered. Plus viewer comments can be better sorted through as they only cover one topic. I have learned a great deal from your videos. You have a wealth of deep knowledge that you pass along. I think this is one reason your channel is no popular. And okay, the cool beard style does help too. The new format is better at fulfilling the educational value of your efforts.
Really enjoying these deep dive questions.
I'd love to see a detailed video on the rimfire especially how they are formed in the day. Thanks for your great work.
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I enjoy these "Answer to this question" format, a lot. Makes it easier to me to determine if it will pick my interest or not (they usually do, anyway :-D).
I'd love to see Ians take on how bad the war could have been from his idea on the Us Civil War if Union forces adopted Pin Fire conversions instead of rolling with the standard ammunition we ran for the war. I mean if they made breachloader springfield conversions and these would this have made the union equipment extreemely better or worse then confederate arms of the time. Or would it just be seen as a expense only to the most mobile divisions to increase the ability to flank and fire in bulk
My uncle actually has a pin fire lefaucheux revolver from I believe the 1800s complete with some ammunition. Ive only seen it a few times but it is a really neat gun.
That actually explained a question that came up in my mind from time to time whenever i saw pin fire systems.
Ask Ian series is truly a success, genius setup too, plain and passionate
I really like these shorter Q&A because I often cannot spend an hour or two on one video.
0:08 Oh, I always though you were Ian McCollum.
I got your 75m artillery t-shit today.
Awesome!
I had a great uncle that served in the French Army artillery in WWI. Wearing it with pride 👍👍
4:50 - "...and an anvil that prevents the hammer from just pushing a primer around." Theoretically, there's another possibility; if the hammer hits the primer at a high-enough speed, the primer's own inertia can serve as the anvil, removing the requirement for a separate physical anvil. In practice, good luck getting the hammer to move that fast.
I've always wanted a pinfire revolver. So far the closest I've gotten is that tiny little revolver that uses 2mm pinfire blanks. You can actually use them to launch little 9mm flares with a muzzle attachment, and by God it works remarkably well. I believe pinfire shotguns are still in use in Europe. There are kits out there to load your own pinfire cartridges currently. Though anyone who can operate a lathe would be able to make proper pinfire ammunition as well. Next time I come across one... 😏
You can easily find some nice pinfire revolvers if you live in Europe.
You might even find one of those nice triple action Lefaucheux (slightly more expensive)
Overall, they are pretty cheap and yea, some collectors oriented gunsmiths are producing 7, 9 and 12mm ammo.
Pinfire Shotguns are even cheaper but really rarely used nowadays (less than the revolvers).
@@Loutral I'm in the United States. They don't seem to turn up here very often. I've seen a few in antique stores over the years, but they were low quality and in poor condition. Here neither the revolvers nor shotguns would be regulated by our gun laws since they're legally antiques. And I'm a gunsmith and a machinist, so coming up with the ammunition shouldn't be too hard. Hopefully a decent quality pinfire revolver will present itself some day. I do occasionally load black powder cartridges for some of my antique centerfire revolvers, and I've managed to accumulate a small supply of balloon head cases for the .32 and .38 S&W cartridges to be able to exactly duplicate the original black powder loads.
@@jamesclark6420 Good luck finding a nice one then ;)
Two questions. First, I ran across a reference to a 1849 German Patented LeFancheux style revolver. And second, Casimir patented pinfire "pepper box" revolvers prior to 1850. Wouldn't both of these have made the Rollin White patent viod. Especially since the son patented a pinfite revolver design that predated the White patent
White only had to patent his design in the US, most countries did not allow non-citizens to patent their ideas, the 'patent' had to be assigned to a resident, and there was no reciprocity between countries.
@@brucelee3388 What I was referring to is that under US Patent Law, an invention had to be original. As for your comment about non Citizens not being able to file patents. Both England and France routinely allowed foreigners to file in their nations
3:25 makes me think of an old saying:
Hindsight is 20/20
There's a plaque on a wall at Aberdeen University remembering Rev Forsyth and the percussion system mentioned at 1 minute.
Great video! You really have a skill at breaking down some on these topics into a way we can all understand! Thank you!
The only times I’ve seen examples of pin fire are TINY tiny millimeter diameter and length rounds. And there were always some French ring revolver or pocket gun that really would make someone mad rather than do any damage. And I had always thought, why would that be popular? But we’re there larger, normal size cartridges like we have today that were pin fire?
You should develop this into a series of the development of the cartridges with all its weird side developments
I have a pin fire Derringer made into a tie clasp. It's a 3.2 mm pin fire cartridges with no bullet on the case. It's a noise maker only. Have 3 cartridges left for it. Got it back in the late 60's.
Why make noise when you can make holes
@@gunnermurphy6632 Because a 15 yr. old kid should not have a firing with real ammo pistol. I wasn't responsible at that time of my life.
@@harrisonlewis6853 fascinating take
Forgotten Weapons is the adult version of Tales of the Gun. My 12 year old heart is happy and my adult head is engaged. History channel messed up getting rid of that show and not having Ian as a full time researcher/presenter/director/etc. ... Come to think of it, I'm glad that show is gone because Ian is so much better
I wish Polish gun law could allow pinfire side-by-side shotguns and 3-barrel shotguns to come back as the arms one can have without the necessity of registration permissions and all this ridiculous crap we still struggle against because of one, short guy...
I always wondered about the history of pinfire cartridges, they are a fairly common metal detecting find here in the UK, although finding a good one is rare as they're usually rotten.
I am really digging these single question, more in depth Q/As.
It would be really neat to see a video of something that uses the Morse case but I can’t imagine how hard it would be to find one.
Boxer type wrapped brass centre fire cartridges were still being made commercially up to the 1930’s as a cheaper item than drawn brass ones. Eley even trying tinned steel foil instead of brass to cheapen them even further. Drawn brass centre fire did not kill off others as completely or as soon as one imagines. We still have rimfire 0.220” today.
I had a cap gun that used pin fire cartridges. Was small and wish I still had it. It was a kids gun but just for noise no bullet
The question that kicked off this video provoked flashbacks to teaching (or attempting to teach) history. For most people, it’s not just a question of backward reasoning. The person on the street views nearly everything that has happened, all those Neanderthals, Egyptians, Romans, lords & ladies, you name it, as having occurred last Wednesday right before supper, say 4:30-5:00PM.
Thanks Ian for the information about pinfire ammo
I know you have discussed needle fire systems in the past as well. How do they fit into this timeline?
Where do needle guns fit into this chain of development? Before or after cap & ball? They seem like centerfire but using the back of the bullet as the anvil.
Have you checked out the cz 52 roller lock pistol . Another interesting aspect is the duel primer porting . It shoots comparable to .30 cal carbine in a pistol . Sorry this question is not on topic.
So essentially, it filled the niche that existed for the transition between muzzle-loading and cartridges.
Very cool!
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Thanks you for the informative information and you really expanded my horizon on this subject.
I actually have a half dozen live pinfire cartridges. I bought a box of assorted gun parts, ammo, and reloading dies at a yard sale years ago.
Love the new one question one answer format!
A cogent and concise explanation. Thank you, Ian. Flaxen Saxon.
Excellent presentation Ian! Thank you.
Morse? Was that the same Morse as a Morse taper? As in lathe tail stock etc
In my studies of revolvers and once found a reference to an 1848-1849 German patented LeFaucheux style pinfire revolver. I do know that there were pepper box pinfire revolvers which erte earlier, but that one was the earliest example with a barrel as well as a bored through cylinder. Which would easily pre-date the Rollin White patent. Could anyone link ne the German maker and patent?
Ian, Do you know or can you recommend a reputable person that can take a look and possibly do some restoration on a pinfire pistol? i had no idea what it was until I saw your other videos and this one has prompted me to ask.
Thanks as always for such great content.
I remember pinfire from french army ww1... truely the reason that you need a full flap holster...
As always: lucid, informative, loads of fun.
Thanks, Ian!
How does needle fire compare to early pin and center fire cardboard cartridges? Needle fire basically used the bullet as the anvil correct?
Awesome so interesting, would it be possible to do another vide actually on cartridge and bullet manufacture and process? Thanks
I had a cell phone in 1990... 50 cents a minute - monthly bills about $200. It replaced a radio-telephone which cost the same but was 10x bigger than the bag "cell" phone. Motorola Pulsar. Someone else paid for it.
It all comes down to context. Thanks for a great video!
I bought an 1854 Lefaucheaux Pinfire back at the end of the last century. Thank god they now make cartridge kits so i can make my own rounds. It was in a local gun shop i dont think they knew what it was and at the time you couldnt het rounds for it. I only paid $200 on a pistol that may or may not have been imported in the American Civil War.
I like the long format q&a
You see that situation where one invention needs another to come first. The printing press couldn't happen until artists invented oil based paints thick enough to stay on the top of the letters. It was not all that many years between linseed oil paints coming on the scene and Gutenberg turning it into printing ink. That same basic ink is still used today.
I think we need a pinfire, belt fed, machine gun with lever action on the top of the receiver, and a concrete hand-guard.
gold plated as well?
@@suddenllybah yeah. We could put some dishes on there.
Love these "snippets" 👍🏻👍🏻
I like this new format
The Q&A format change was a good idea.
...how about doing a spot on how the drawing og brass was developed???
I like the longer Q&As better
Ooh I'm definitely curious about the history of rimfire cartridges
To this day the Pauly breechloader remains at the top of my list of historically significant guns I want to own.... Oh if only I had know it was going to sell for such a good price at auction.