BREAKING BETHEL EPISODE 2: First Week of School, Fire Tunnels, and Two Hour Worship Sets
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2024
- The next step on our journey through Bethel School Of Supernatural Ministry! Learn what your 1st week will be like, who will you be learning from, what is day in class look like, and much more.
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• BREAKING BETHEL EPISOD...
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• BREAKING BETHEL EPISOD...
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Anything that glorifies man over God is a HUGE red flag for theological heresy. Thanks for all your work to expose Bethel.
Permission to come aboard, from Fighting for the Faith. Great work, sir.
Welcome aboard! Thanks for subscribing 🙌🏼
I was involved in a very new age church with very similar believes as bethel. It’s been 5 years later as a reformed believer now and I still myself have a hard time believing I was in a cult. Or even subconsciously have certain theological believes that the Lord is still purging out. I think we get so emotionally involved, the experiences are so real, and also the people that you love that’s it’s so hard to put the emotional aspect of things aside- so I get it!
Thanks for sharing 🙌🏼
Thanks for doing this series! My wife and I left the charismatic church a little over two years ago. So thankful for the Lords faithfulness.
absolutely! thanks or watching and glad this is helping
2:26 Learning the truth about Jesus performing miracles as God, not as man, was one of the turning points of me coming out of the charismatic/pentecostal movement.
👌🏼
Seen you on Fighting for the Faith, and I give glory to God the Father for your deliverance from Bethel. God be Praised!
Amen 🙌🏼
Hey brother. I know it's not easy being so transparent in this way. Just know that this will make an impact. I hope that the Lord uses this series to open the eyes of many to the false teachings of bethel, as well as it's affiliated 'churches'.
God bless my man.
I appreciate that
I wasn’t in there physically or for long relatively but it has been hard to learn that so many of the figures in Bethel who I looked up to aren’t teaching anyone about Jesus of the Bible even though they read the Bible and use all the same words. I read many of the books by Bill and Kris and watched… countless hours of sermons and talks by Jen and Steffany and Amanda. Everything I could get my internet hands on, thinking I was hungry for God, and it was all wrong. Bought all the new albums around 2017-2018… it’s hard for me to listen to any music at all now. Anyway you’re certainly not alone in the confusion coming away from this. Stay in context in the Word. Thank you for speaking up about your experience.
Thank you!
I can understand how hard it is to listen to music now. My heart goes out to you, I’ve been there 💛 May the Lord grant you peace as you seek him!
I was in a charismatic cult in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s. I was deceived, but Jesus Christ opened my eyes to the deception in His great mercy, and delivered me, in time, from the shame of being deceived.
It takes time. And it’s OK that it’s not instantaneous. I’m thankful to be done with the “suddenlies”.
I came from fighting for the faith as well. Good job my friend. I used to be a part of y wam and they do alot of the same stuff that Bethel does. Im proud of you though.
I so wish they were longer!! I can’t lie… thank u so much for ur courage and love for the Lord… helping us really see why this movement is so dangerous!
Awe thank yiu so much! More coming your way
I worked at a Bethel church plant. The people are incredible. We’re still friends, even after I spoke about Bethel and my experience on a podcast and post about Bethel on social media. I totally get it. I’m so glad they didn’t get mad and we’re still friends. I would say their theology is literally the only bad thing about that church. They took good care of me.
Wow...well, so if their theology is about the only bad thing, um that's not good.
BUT, I AM glad those people were Christlike in their conduct.
Also, Jesus was fully God and fully Man
@@hiptoalieu I agree. That’s why we left.
The manipulation is terrible, watch this awful video An Interview with Jen Johnson and Brooke Ligertwood
@@SD-ip2wb they weren’t manipulating me. Lol. But I agree that the leaders at Bethel are ravenous wolves.
A dear friend of mine had her daughter and family move to Northern California many years ago. They had heard so much about Bethel A/G and decided to visit to see if that would be the church for them. She was very troubled in her spirit by what she experienced, and they decided to find another church. This was a person who had been raised in the A/G and saw red flags everywhere. I still have acquaintances who are still all in for this place and it saddens me that they can't see it for what it really is.
thank you for your story. thanks for watching too.
I subscribed today and also found you from F4F. I really felt for you because I was involved in the chrasmatic movement for 25 years, and God sovereignly brought me out of it. I remember how hard it was in the beginning, realizing how messed up my theology was, and it took time. The peace you find through a proper understanding of God and the person and work of Christ is unbelievable, though! My old church that I spent most of my life in got really involved with Bethel. Actually, back before Bill was even known and before the school. Our church basically became a southern version of Bethel. Lol. Our pastors son, who ultimately became our pastor, left to pastor a sister church to Bethel called Revive San Francisco. He got so involved with Bill that he even started looking like Bill. It was wild. Anyway, I'm glad to be here, and I will certainly remember you in my prayers and great channel.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Please take time to heal and be in scripture and prayer. When you mentioned that you’re still so close to this experience that it stung to process that Bethel could be considered a cult, it gave me pause while listening. More important than building this platform is your (and your family’s) spiritual health and growth. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate what you’re doing, but make sure you’re getting grounded in the word first and foremost. Praying for you and your family in this new season of faith.
Appreciate it! Yea it’s been almost 3 years since we walked away so we have been taking our time. Thanks for supporting!
@@thewestwoodhome oh, praise God! I understand the hesitation in placing harsh labels like cult on any church, but I just don’t want to see anyone’s faith shipwrecked. Glad to hear that maturity has been a priority!
@@RobinStoddard totally. I appreciate the accountability ❤️🙌🏼❤️
Watched this on AGTV but also watching here to give you the views and hopefully boost your channel. THANK YOU for sharing this. The word about how dangerous this theology is needs to get out there. Praying my family who are reading the books and taking in this theology will have their eyes opened.
Wow thank you so much for the support 🙌🏼 blessings!
Praying for people that come to my mind is one of my favorite things to do during the day. Why Bethel would ban that for anyone is insane...
Thank you 🙏🏼
When I was a kid, my sister joined a "non denominational" church. I went with her from time to time. They are similar to bethel but smaller, more toned down as far as the manifestation of the holy spirit bit still somewhat charismatic. It is and has always been very works based. It is very easy to twist that doctrine of works done in Faith vs. works done to gain approval from God and they did that, alot. Anyway, to make a long story short....at 18 I became full time "converted" member. I joined the Choir and worship team, i met the pastors son, dated and married him at 27 yrs old. We served together in worship team until 2021, when we left. We are somewhat estranged from his family.
The trauma of the realization that I spent 20 years of my life in a controlling cult, hurts badly. I loved the people so much, I love my husbands family, but on their end their relationship with us was always predicated on how much of ourselves we gave to them and the church. In the end, it was so difficult to sit and listen to the twisting of scripture, works based salvation and santification doctrine, and the chaos of the "spiritual gift". I feel that when I left "my church" I lost everything..i lost 20 years of my life. I have my husband and kids whom I love so there is that
. .but trully, for me, the anger has faded and I'm barely beginning to mourn and it hurts. I may have PTSD, 20 YEARS of neglecting everything, giving everything for that church, and nothing to show for it.
Sorry to hear that. Thanks for sharing 🙏🏼
@The Westwoods we'll be ok. God is faithful despite what goes down. 😉. Enjoying the videos brother. Take care and God bless.
God sees. He knows your heart and your desire while serving there. I realized a while ago that church organisations often tend to chew people up and spit them out. That is charismatic or not. My parents served in a conservative church for 30+ yesrs and when they finally left because they felt they needed to, no one. No one from the church called them. I realized at that point two things. 1. God will see what you have given and done, in faith through Him. 2. If church is to be family we need to do things differently as Christians, more relational less 'organizationl' religion. Not how many meetings/services but how are we connecting with those believers around us. I don't think I have found the balance yet but I velieve that God will give wisdom on the journey.
You are brave. We've left a NAR church who picked up Bethel sick ways. Praise God that He got us out!
Thank you 🙏🏼
So question, is your church now RAR?
(reformed apostolic reformation)
Enjoy listening to your story.
You have a very humble way about you…much like Mike Winger.
I pray that you are able reach many people in that movement and their hearts are open to what you have to say.
God bless you
That is high praise! Thank you so much 😊
Mike Winger defends Bill Johnson and Bethel 🥲
@Trace Severs Not anymore. See his latest video on them. It's taken him awhile to publicly call them out, but he has. Praise be to God!
Very interesting! I like your casual presentation and appreciate your transparency. Looking forward to watching the series. God bless you and your family! ❤️
Thank you very much!
I appreciate the length of your videos. You are open and to the point.
I appreciate that! Thanks for the support
I was sent here from Fighting for the Faith. Thanks for all your hard work. The NAR is down here in Dallas too, so I love this content. Keep on workin'!
Awesome! Thank you!
I'm a Seer and God has revealed to me bethel being a cult but what I find concerning is how many "prophets" don't speak out against Bethel especially Jeremiah Johnson who seems to be one of the better ones.
I know this is difficult. In talking about my own experience with Word of Faith, I still care very deeply about those people. I am praying for you as you press on through this process for the Lord. 🙏🏻
Thank you sister 🙏🏼
I'm South African and "charismatic" seems to have a different meaning here.
NAR has dangerous doctrine, but overall, "charismatic" just implies believing that gifts still apply today and church is happy rather than sombre and all suit and tie.
Thank you, Mr. Westwood.
Thanks for listening
Thank you for doing this. Keep it up! Blessings in Christ
Thank you 🙌🏼
Excited for part 2!
Here from Fighting For the Faith ❤️🙏🏽
Thank you!
I subbed and I'm looking forward to this series. I pray the Lord will guide you and enable you.
Thank you 🙏🏼
Maybe you’ll elaborate more on this, but I’ve never heard anyone from Bethel say Jesus wasn't God, or that he wasn't man and God. Rather, that he was God who condescended and lived with us just as we are, yet in perfect communion with the Father.
For anyone who doesn't hold this viewpoint, the general Charismatic way of looking at things is that Jesus was fully God and fully man, but he did not use his power on his own accord. In other words, he had the power (hence the temptations of Satan) but he didn't use it, at least not for his own purposes, but in subjection to the Father. This is based off of John 5, where Jesus says that he cannot do anything by himself but only does what the Father is doing. Essentially, the idea is that everything he did was by the power of the Spirit. Of course, how the trinity actually functions is a mystery, but that's a very short explanation of how Charismatics see it.
Further down in John 5, Jesus says "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me." From Jesus own mouth, explaining his authority comes from the Father (as the Jews were offended at him for making himself equal to God).
To many Charismatics, following Jesus is following in his footsteps, which is laid out in the great commission in Mark 16: "And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
More of why Charismatics believe this also comes from John 14, where Jesus says: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." The implication that we are to carry on the work of Jesus. The context of John 14:12 comes from verse 11 which is that the works Jesus was doing reveal the Father, and we too are to do works which reveal the Father. Also, one verse above that in verse 10, Jesus says: "The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works." The Father, who dwells in him does the works.
Of course, there are different viewpoints on all of this, which is fine, but I think there's ample evidence to support the belief that Jesus did the works in reliance on the Father through the Spirit, not as someone using his “super powers" as he saw fit.
Looking forward to hearing more of why you believe Bethel's a cult. So far, I'm enjoying your story.
I grew up Lutheran, went to a Lutheran school from second grade to eleventh grade. My mom started following Kenneth Copeland when I was young. When I grew up I realized God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Yet the church told me He changed. Look into that. God did not change He didn’t change His mind and He did not change His rules. If you want to follow Him He told you how in the beginning of His book.
Thanks for sharing 🙏🏼
Commenting to say great editing work and style! 👍
Thank you so much 🤗
I seen your vid where you went over Mike's content on Bethel practices, so I've subbed 👍🙏
Thank you Jesse! Again and again it's remarkable to detect how Bill Johnson thinks. The quote of him which you state ("if Jesus did his miracles as God, I'm left as a spectator. Only if he did it as man in perfect relationship to God, than he becomes a model to me") shows again his folly, which one wants to scream at him, because he does it again and again: our duty as Christians is not to form God as we would like to have him, but to worship that God which is described in his word! So it doesn't matter if I become a spectator or a follower. Important is, that the bible tells us clearly, that Jesus is God himself, over and over again.
Let me just pick one verse here, which I came to realize is rather unknown: Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." The start of the chapter shows, that it is God the father talking, and he says "they will look on me on the cross". So he clearly did his greatest miracle, namely to die for mankind at the cross, as God.
So, in the end, it shows just Bill Johnson's pride and arrogance, for he wants to create God as he thinks God should be. That's idolatry. And that will be his judgement.
Surely there is a big difference between being a spectator and being a follower, they aren't synonyms. There are aspects of Bethel's theology I disagree with (and I have even more issue with their right-wing politics) but the idea of Jesus doing his miracles as a man annointed by God rather than using his divine abilities seems justifiable from the Bible. I am thinking the importance placed on Jesus being empowered by the Holy Spirit at his baptism, his comment about being able to do nothing apart from.his father, and him telling his disciples they will do the same works as he had done. Also the miracles we see Jesus do in the gospels are similar to those that God did through Elijah and Elisha and in Acts rather than on a completely different level, and in Gesthemene Jesus says he could ask his father to send angels to rescue him....why couldn't Jesus have voluntary laid aside his divine attributes as Philippians suggests?
@@gareth2736 Thank you for your answer. In order to get the correct understanding of the Bible, we have to apply certain rules, which derive themselves from the Bible, for it is written that (2 Timothy 3, 16-17) "(16) All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.". So the Bible is a complete coherent work, in which every verse is like a tessera and the whole correct meaning is only revealed when you look at the bigger picture (as with a mosaic picture). So it is mandatory to put all verses (the whole Bible!) into consideration, each one in its context, before we draw any conclusion about its meaning. For instance is the simple sentence "God is pure love" totally misleading if one omits all the other verses which talk about God's wrath ...
Therefore it's commonly said, that the Bible interprets itself. When put into practice it means that we need to apply a certain method in order to resolve the many contradictions we face at first glance (such as "Honor the sabbath" and "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind"), and about that could be talked a lot, but it's actually also not that complicated: there are different epochs in the Bible and - voila - by that already the vast majority is resolved. But: it is not allowed to neglect certain verses, because that causes a wrong overall picture. Of course it is likewise of utter importance to read precisely, get the correct original text (which modern mankind can be sure having 98% of) and use a very precise translation. Still, sometimes there are questions left and then we need to think of other solutions how to harmonize everything. And, after all, in some central topics the correct understanding can only be hold if one accepts all contradictory verses and believe in every one of them. Most famous example for this is the trinity. So one could now argue about in which cases one should behave how. Therefore Christians agreed throughout the centuries to the thumb rules, that clear passages outrule unclear ones, and that we need at least 3 verses claiming the same thing before we can create a doctrine out of it.
Apropos being precise: we should also be precise when discussing Bible topics. For instance: I didn't say that being a spectator and a follower are synonyms. It is of course clear that the Bible demands us to be followers of Christ, e.g. by "John 12, 26: If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him." - or by "Matthew 16, 24: Then Jesus told his disciples, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'". And there we get even a better understanding of what is meant by following Jesus: to be humble, self-denying, and obeying, in short as it is quoted by Peter in "1 Peter 1, 16: since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'".
Having said all this, let's come to the question about the divinity of Jesus on earth. You are right by claiming that Philippians 2:7 ("(7) but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.") suggests that Jesus laid aside his divine attributes. And that's why it's so important to consider the whole Bible before drawing a conclusion! Because it could also be understood differently, as the context suggests (read the verses Philippians 2:3-8 and it becomes clear that it's about Jesus being so humble that he even was ready to become a mere human). So, while verse 7 leaves the possibility, we need to consider other scriptures in order to find out if that could really be meant by it.
When God tells Moses his name, he says in "Exodus 3, 14: God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.'". The "I am"-verses of Jesus are referring exactly to that name, because they are in greek "ego eimi / ειμαι" which has a special emphasis on "I", for "eimi" means already "I am", so that "ego eimi" means something like "I, I am". Take "John 8, 58: Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'" That's a clear reference to the name of God. And the Jews understood him, as shown in "John 10, 33: The Jews answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.'"
Or take "John 8, 24: I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." That's how Jesus himself expresses it for people like Bill Johnson: if you don't believe, that I am divine also in my human life, you will die in your sins!
John the Baptist says of Jesus (before the baptism!): "John 1, 29-30: The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.'" There is it again: a reference to the name of God. Before the baptism.
There are many more verses in the Bible.
Let's consider also a different approach to that question: Thomas calls Jesus God in "John 20, 28: Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'", and Jesus does not contradict.
Jesus forgives sins (something only God can do) in "Mark 2, 5: And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Son, your sins are forgiven.'"
Or he gives eternal life in "John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."
As I said: there are even more verses to that. All say that Jesus even in his earthly time span was divine. The claim that he did his miracles as a man, while making such statements as God doesn't have any merit.
Therefore: the verse in Philippians 2:7 cannot mean, that Jesus laid aside his divinity. The question remains then: what else can be meant? Well, let's read that in context:
Philippians 2
(3) Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
(4) Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
(5) Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
(6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(7) but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men..
(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
The solution can only be what I said in the beginning: Jesus was so humble that he was not ashamed becoming a mere human, whereas "mere human" is only connected to his physics, to his human body. So, the doctrine, that the earthly Jesus had two natures in him - one human nature and one divine nature, which consisted of the trinity, is mandatory, for any other doctrine is not supported by the fullness of the Bible.
Therefore we must conclude, that the baptism of Jesus has to be understood as a mere sign for humans. It could not be the start of Jesus' divinity. The other thoughts you mixed into that question don't have any contradiction to what we found out now, have they?
I hope this could help you. I pray that it is a blessing for your spiritual being.
@@sbrgm thanks for the detailed response. I 100% agree that Jesus never ceased to be God, and that he didn't become divine at his baptism. The gospels still read though that he did his miracles on earth through the power of the Holy Spirit (Luke emphasises him coming to Galilee in the Holy Spirit) and through prayer/relationship with the Father. There always seems to be an expectation from Jesus that his disciples could do similar things to what he was doing "you will do the same works" "you feed them" "say to this mountain". When the disciples ask him why they couldn't cast a demon out of a boy and Jesus could he doesn't respond "that's because I am God and you are not" he says "this types only comes out through fasting and prayer". If you see the miracles primarily as an apologetic for Jesus being God how do you deal with this expectation from Jesus that his disciples could do the same things - not to mention that almost every miracle Jesus does in the gospels is foreshadowed in the ministries of Elijah and Elisha.
@@gareth2736 I'm glad that our discussion has a good tone - let's keep that. I'm not so sure now if I understand you correctly. Because if you agree that Jesus never ceased to be God and he didn't become divine at his baptism, don't you then also disagree with Bill Johnson? I assume that - if I'm wrong, please tell me.
When it comes to the demand for us to do the same things as Jesus, we must take heed of not going beyond the scripture. For Paul forbids it in "1 Corinthians 4, 6: I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one again". And the context in chapter 3 talks about human wisdom, so that this verse is fully applicable to the question of speculations. If there would be clear texts that demand from Christians to do the same miracles then Jesus, those verses would be understood correctly the way you said. But there are no clear texts saying that. Only some verses which give room for speculations - but those verses can easily be understood differently, without harming any other doctrines. Therefore it is totally unnecessary and thus illegitimate to understand them as request for us to hunt for the supernatural or "operate in the miraculous". If we were requested to do such things it would be written in any of the letters (because in the time of Jesus on earth or in the period of Acts the salvific situation is different). But besides laying hands on the sick and praying for them there is nothing (besides "1 Corinthians 14, 5: Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up." - and that verse is as a single verse which is not clear of how to understand, in the context of the whole rebuking letter to the Corinthians).
I see all these verses as a challenge for us for having more faith. But biblical faith, which is not a type of energy (the way Bill Johnson says it), but has instead God as an object. So we believe in God, or trust Jesus, worship him, petition him, believe that all things are possible for him. We should ask him with the most earnest prayer, believe that he can do all things, but does always the best thing, and submit to his will and decisions.
Now to the question of politics ...: are you the first American Christian I meet who is not right-wing? I'm a German, a conservative Christian, and I guess politically very left. I marvel all the time how and why American Christians are always right-wingers. In my point of view the left world view is in better harmony with the Bible than the right-wing view. But I'm not talking about American left (for that would be still considered right in Germany), not even about left in Germany ... more like pragmatic socialism.
God bless you!
@@sbrgm God bless you to. Some thoughts in response. I don't think Bill J believes Jesus became divine at his baptism his point about Jesus doing his miracles as a man wasn't that Jesus wasn't God, it was just he self-restricted himself from using his divine abilities, that's my understanding and I think Bill/Bethel clarified that was what they meant. Remnent Radio (TH-cam channel that interviews people across the evangelical spectrum from Bethel to cessationists have discussed this)...in terms of Jesus remaining divine but briefly laying aside or at least not using some divine attributes he clearly was not omnipresent as a man (he was restricted to one place at a time) and he also wasn't omniscient (Luke says after the temple story when he was 12 "that he grew in wisdom and statue" and Jesus said that he didn't know the hour of his return only the Father knows it). It therefore seems reasonable if Jesus had laid aside being omnipresent and omniscient as a man he has also laid aside being omnipotent for the 30 or so years of his earthly ministry.. I agree the letters don't have much in the way of instruction about Christians doing miracles 1 Corinthians does refer to gifts of miracles and gifts of healings as well as prophecy and tongues but there aren't lots of references. Galatians talks about God working miracles amoung them but doesn't give more info. If there are instructions they come from putting together the instructions Jesus gave the disciples in the gospels along with the great commission in which the disciples were told to teach others do to everything they had been taught. Incidentally on the politics side of things I am British - there isn't a clear cut Christian view on voting for conservative (right) or labour(left) amoung British Christians - I think lots of Christians would say they are socially conservative but economically more left wing here, I understand in the US why abortion might drive Christians to vote republican but really don't get why free market economics or gun rights are considered divinely ordained. I'm impressed as a German how good your English is I would have had no idea you were writing in a second language.
Subscribed. I went to celebration church in jacksonville florida under stovall weems for years. A lot of bethel theology there but kind of watered down. Anyway, thanks for the videos!
Thanks for the support 🙏🏼
Here is what stumped me. If Jesus did everything as man, how did he forgive sin? There was no sacrifice yet. That sent me down the kenotic rabbit hole.
Exactly
Great stuff, thank you Jesse!
Thank you! Appretiate the feedback
you could easily go 30-45 minutes and that would not be too long :) great to hear your story , thanks for sharing
Noted!
None of us are perfect or ever will be so how would we hope to ever as man/ woman perform a miracle big or small. The gospel of bill Johnson is such a lie it's so scary how many people are deluded by this . Looking back on how delusional I was because of these people is heartbreaking. We need to pray for more eyes to be opened.
Love you jesse! -roop
Always and forever Rooptroop❤
Great stuff going on at Bethel. God is in control.
Would you include having Kevin Copeland preach there as good stuff?
@@thewestwoodhome I've never heard him speak before so I might listen with open mind and decide then.
@@paulc7190 literals preached :
1. That we are little gods
2. Jesus suffered in hell for three days and had to fight the devil to get our freedom
3. Declared money to come to him from the pulpit
4. That hears the voice of God directly and conversationally interacts with him
5. Spoke at Bethel last week as an honored guest.
@@thewestwoodhome What aspects of God can be little? Omnipresent (everywhere at once), Omnipotent (can do anything), Onmiscience (knows everything), perfect in love, perfect in judgement, eternal. All of these are either true or false, not a scale. Saying the someone can be a little bit of any of these is nonsense.
@@thewestwoodhome Remnant Radio did a pretty good video recently th-cam.com/video/9Bys8_ylGUk/w-d-xo.html
My wife came across some of your comments on FB - thankful for your story and your openness to sharing it with us!
Awesome! Thank you 🙏🏼
Hi dear Sir... just subbed. During lockdown I got very addicted to zoom prophecy rooms. I never got inheritance..I never got healed, I felt it was my lack of faith. I know God is sovereign, now. Bethel screwed my theology and brain up sadly. I'm now churchless, but not addicted to wrong prophecies. Very interesting Sir. May they be set free with eyes open ✨️
Praying for you! Thanks for sharing
I hope you get these episodes out quicker 😊 can’t wait to see next episode..
Working on it! Crazy busy life but this is popping off faster than I expected 😂
@@thewestwoodhome I have lived in Redding most of my life, am a Christian and also used to go to Bethel church from time to time, didn’t see anything wrong with it etc. 2020 hit and the Lord shattered my deceptions and I’m so thankful for it! Anyway these videos are super interesting to me. Are you still in the area?
@@lizj3815 that’s amazing! I left years ago in 2011 so no longer in the area. Loved the whiskey town lake and the area though.
@@thewestwoodhome yes it is a beautiful area.
Deuteronomy 13:3 says it all amen.
👌🏼
Thankyou for this series Jesse! My husband and I have similar experiences from a Bethel influenced church in Australia which God has graciously brought us out of a couple years ago. So many points of your testimony so far so very relatable and are really helpful in learning to articulate issues, which we still have struggles with. Thank you! Praying this series reaches those still mixed up with Bethel and is a great encouragement to those who are healing from it all!
Thank you for the feedback and your story. Thanks for the prayers 🙏🏼
Bethel worries me, idk if I’m done with the entire charismatic/Pentecostal movement. I think it’s possible to separate I appreciate you sharing your experience
Thansk!
School of the supernatural = 💰
It's not free!
The fact you have a hard time calling it a cult to shows to me, just how much you love these people & want them to be free
❤️❤️❤️ thank you for that
I love Bill, saw him in person years ago, but not sure if he is 100%. I do not believe he is intentionally misleading anyone. I do question much of what is alleged to go on in the church.
Totally get it
Did Bethel 1st year. Was one of their worship leaders. Was asked not to come back... all because my RGP was an egotistical crazy person who didn't like me cause I didnt blindly trust her with my trauma, background etc. after she broke trust a handful of times. My true pastor was Joanna the 1st year Worship Pastor. She was my confidant and had my back all year. Still hold Bethel with a bitter sweet experience. I'd do it all again, make the same mistakes because God encountered me and healed a ton of heart stuff. He also revealed a ton of abuse in that "culture"... Leaders are messy everywhere. Bethel is very messy cause they don't seem to properly vet the crazy out.
Would love to connect sometime
@@thewestwoodhome sure. I was there for Worship school 2011 and 1st year 2011/2012. I went down after my friend Stephen Gretzinger (married Steffany) sold me on going down after seeing the life change he went through.
❤️❤️
What a cliffhanger!!! 😂
Unintentionally but yea lol 😂
What is the fire tunnel all about? I’ve visited Bethel a couple of times and am glad you’re doing this..thank you!
Good question! It’s basically a way to hype things up at the end of the service and have everyone pray for each other. The goal is to get everyone drunk 🤷🏼♂️
Jesus saved me out of the new age/occult stuff (and more). I truly do understand how painful and emotional it can be realizing you were part of a cult, involved in cult practices, all the while thinking/believing you're worshipping and serving God.
So true! Praise God for you getting out and thanks for watching 🙏🏼
For the algorithm
Bill Johnson believes that Jesus was both man and God while on earth but Jesus connected with the Holy Spirit to do miracles on earth just as we do. I also was in BSSM and started 2008 as well so this is interesting to listen to.
No way? Let’s connect. He has stated multiple times (even in the book). The stance of the theology is that He is the example for us to operate in same miracles. The “ you will perform greater works” is used a lot. To that question I would ask: what was Jesus’ greatest miracle”
I’d love to connect. Yes, I agree that Bill Johnson quotes that scripture a lot.
@@clarelaff1883 email me! thewestwoodhome@gmail.com
@@thewestwoodhome well I am pretty sure that is what Jesus said in John 14:12. So what is wrong with quoting the scripture there? I don't see any thing wrong with that.
This so-called school has been around for a long time and where are the testimonies 20 years later?
Great point!
A question: do you equate now your peace and moments of humility while everyone was getting drunk in the Spirit as you personally connecting with God or do you think it was something else? Do you believe you were still connecting with God at Bethel or did you believe it was a different spirit entirely?
Great questions. I think God can work through whatever he wants. I would like to say it was God 🤷🏼♂️ I will never know for sure just grateful for where I am
Jesse- I need to know is that tree behind you painted on the wall? 😍😅
It is actually a dead branch off of a Japanese maple from our backyard😅
New Sub from F4F.
Thanks for subbing
Jesse you don't have to be sorry for your time at Bethel. They are a God pursuing church. You should be thankful to the Lord for your time there and happy that your time was not wasted. God bless you brother.
Definitely, he shouldn't be sorry for his time. The Lord doesn't make mistakes, but to say Bethel is a "God pursuing" church could be argued. I would say they are more of a "sign pursuing" church, but that's my thoughts off what I know about them and their theology, which misses the mark Biblically.
Thanks Jesse. Love your stuff. I just did a video on bethel church. Would love for you to check it
You got it brother! I’ll get on that
@The Westwoods thank you and thanks for standing up and talking about Bethel. I was deceived and IN a sister church of Bethel for 10 years before I got saved and knew the truth of God's Word and now I want to use my voice to help teach God's Word and see others set free from deception
It has been ver hard for me to speak out as well bc I love the people but the church was part of the bethel cult but it’s way bigger than Bethel, unfortunately I’ve learned that this stuff started with William Brahnum - one of Gods Generals. There’s a man on TH-cam that left The Message which is a cult started by William Brahnum. And bethel church is an off shoot of that. Its shocking to me to realize I was at a church that was deeply affiliated with cult roots.
Yes, it is a good channel. It is called Leaving the Message. Have learned so much from that channel. Just horrific things back in the days of William Branham.
Cool video!
I grew up in the reformed community. Beautiful. Still have close relationships from those days. I’m in charismatic circles nowadays because I didn’t want to be around cessationists. Although the church I’m at now is not as intense or complex as Bethel.
God bless you on your journey. I believe there is a way to not swing too much to extremes in any direction.
I’m curious if your old friends have the same concerns you had? For example I’m curious if Stef Gretzinger ever looked back and had the same concerns.
Anyway, I subscribed!
Thanks for the support!
Hi there! I have been doing a lot of research and discerning with not only Bethel but other unbiblical teachings. I am interested to know about the church you used to go to before Bethel and the differences and similarities between them. I am trying to determine what church to go to and have left my old church and now I feel lost in the mix. I have been going to a Pentecostal church and my fiance goes to a baptist church and it's a drastic difference...
God bless you - whoever you are Sir! I found this by hearing you on "Fighting For The Faith" interview with Chris Rosborough. I'm very curious about lots of things, one specific mentioend in this video. Your friend said Bethel hits all the qualifications for being a cult. What are those qualifications, and can you explain how they do hit them? Ive never been there. only know of them through friends & of course the music. So, Im VERY curious to hear this explanation! If you plan on making a video about my Q later - then I can wait. Otherwise, I hope someone can point me in the right direction. TY!
In time! We will get to all of that 🙏🏼 thanks for the support
@@thewestwoodhome Excellent - I kind of figured you might! Ill standby - Good day to you and your family!
I don't see the problem with what Bethel.
Hi Jesse
You may mention this in a future video but I am curious about your experience with declarations and decrees and the reasoning Bethel uses to support it. My family is a part of Bethel and I never really heard a reason (or a strong Biblically supported one at that) for it and was wondering if you could shed some insight. Like many other people have said here in the comments, people are great there and I think they genuinely want to seek the Lord with a lot of faith which I admire. I just don't agree on their interpretation of scripture and lack of exegetical teaching/understanding.
Also funny that you mention John and Barbara K. Barbara lives up the street from my family (I believe she and John have been divorced for quite a while now). Such a small world we live in.
Yeah, I heard when they divorced. That was a big bummer. That’s crazy small world. I will be addressing some of that stuff down the road. There’s just so much material to cover. I don’t even know where to start. Right now we will have things as we go throughout the school recap, and I will be doing some additional videos tackling theological issues. I agree as far as the people are super kind and have good intentions. I just know that it takes more than good intentions for good theology.
I’m curious how long did you go to school? Did you stop as soon as you no longer believe what they taught? What changed your mind since you were going to a church like Bethel before you went to school at Bethel? Why all of a sudden made you think what they taught was wrong?
I did all three years at BSSM and continued to serve at Bethel affiliated churches for 10 years. It’s only in the past three years I have walked away
@@thewestwoodhome I like to know why after 10 year s after going to Bethel what is your motive of why all of a sudden you are accusing Bethel of being faults? And then talking about it on TH-cam?
Sounds much like IHOP KC. I personally don't call them or Bethel a cult, but I do say they are cult-like. I'm like you in that I know many of these folks and saw their well-meaningness for the Lord even, but they are more so caught up in an unfortunate culture that's bigger than them.
Thanks for watching! I went to IHOPKC a couple times too
@@thewestwoodhome Interesting. Yea I was there for a few years before my deliverance.
As you may know, IHOP and Bethel are in the same stream and cross-pollinate
@@jnh201182 oh absolutely. Many Bethel students are graduate of ihop
A sister of a friend of mine just took off a few weeks ago to intern at IHOP despite her family’s warnings. Have no idea whether she’ll fall into the pride or despair side of their theology, but it’s been concerning knowing what she’s walking into.
Could you please state what the gospel is?
Isn't that interesting, I believe there's a scripture that says that Jesus did nothing and says only what he sees the Father do and say. Thus showing His perfect obedience to the Father. That's the model God wants us to follow, not Bill Johnson's messed up theology. It's God's Holy Spirit( the vary power of creation) working through you and me to do miracles. Though it seems like it is us, it is not, that's how bonded we are in Our spirit and His Spirit ( that we be one). You're doing great Jesse
13:00
As a complete outsider coming into episode 2 because TH-cam fed this to me and having little background on Bethel…
Uh, yeah just your worshipy language… bro, sound like you were in a cult.
Fire thingy? Yeah. That should be a huge red flag you’re into something not connected to reality.
And I say this coming out of Christianity in which before my eventual deconstruction and leaving the faith, I “left” staff at a very predominant church (back in the day). And I’d feel completely comfortable saying it fits the category of a cult on many metrics.
Of course now I could say that any church is kinda of a cult, but anything organized around such a singular focus will fall into this.
Will you please explain what Jesus Culture is? Sorry, but it sounds quite suspect to me.🤔
It started off as the brand of the youth group from Bethel. From there, it turned into a annual youth conference they did, and then, after that it actually became a band that put on music and has a few albums out. Now there is a Jesus Culture church that is run by Banning L. Who was originally the youth pastor that started all of this. Basically, they are a branch from Bethel that was originally to youth group.
What mic do you use?
MXL 990 👍🏼
@@thewestwoodhome thanks!
Keep up the good work!
@@pleasevans6394 thanks brother!
Keep exposing the errors. What a chaotic mess. Read 2 Timothy 4 it describes Bethel. Don't allow your emotions to dictate truth. When I first got saved in the 80s I followed Kenneth Copeland. God in His great mercy led me out. Many people have been led astray, so your not the only one, I've been through it. In 97 I graduated Rhema what a false teaching these people bring. Remember it's doctrines of demons it sounds good to the emotions thats how Satan gains access is through music & emotionalism. Keep up the good work
Thank you!
Was that poop on Satan shirt from the band The W's?
Lol I wish
@@thewestwoodhome My brother had a poop on Satan shirt too but he also had a The W's shirt, the shirt might've just said The Devil is Bad or something. Been a long time and I was pretty young haha.
Hi again from Sweden Jesse, yeah Bethel is creepy even here. Praise God, I never got into any of that, although I attended several Hillsong services growing up. Looking back at it, I see the terrible theology and non existent biblical doctrine. Anyways, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, God bless your family!
Thanks for the support!
Why did you call Bethel a cult?
Sounds way too involved for me. 😂
😂😂😂
Fully God & fully human - you do know this is in the Nicene Creed, don’t you? (it’s orthodox Christianity 101!). If that’s not mystery enough for you, just wait ‘til you find out about the trinity!
How do you think the disciples did their miracles, or what’s happening today when miracles happen?
You can’t remember Mark’s last name (it’s not what you said), or even be bothered to research it, but we’re supposed to accept your testimony 🤦🏼♂️
? I agreed with all of that? Though it was pretty clear. I’m aware of the trinity 😂 and if you remember I said this one was more off the cuff. Sorry I couldn’t remember the last name of director of first year from 12 years ago. I’m just breaking down my experience. Take it or leave it 🤷🏼♂️
Are you are like some kind of new muppet character?
🤣what? 😂
This is like a cult
Yyuuuuup
I have always leaned charismatic, but some of this stuff is literally blasphemy. Also, I have personally never heard it preached that Jesus did miracles as man. In churches I have gone to it was always taught Jesus is fully God and fully man. Charismatic churches have lost their minds apparently.
Stephanie is amazing? Have you watched The Narcissistic Women of Bethel? She’s so problematic. Find it on TH-cam
I understand your sentiment. Please know that these are friends, roommates, and people I did life with. So yes I believe, as a person, Steffany is amazing. She is incredibly kind, generous, loving, and genuinely loves seeing people fall in love with God in worship. Is her theology terrible? 100%
It’s sad to see people more concerned with what they believe is good “theology” rather than genuinely bearing the character of Christ. If your theology allows you to tear people down in such a self righteous manner, I wouldn’t want to approach you let alone hear the Gospel from you.
Aren’t we supposed to be known by our love for one another? Just something to consider.
I’ve followed Bethel for years. I was hoping for more content in your series… or any content. So far, you’ve done nothing but label Bethel a “cult.” Which attributes of a cult does Bethel meet, and why? Provide explanations. Make arguments. There’s nothing here. Your series is titled “Breaking Bethel,” but the majority of your video is just reminiscing about your time at BSSM.
Hey, yeah I will expand on that more later down in the series. But that is essentially with the series is is recounting my time at Bethel. That’s exactly what I said I was going to be doing. Sorry if you’re looking for deeper a few theologicL arguments. I’ll have some of those on a few specific topic but that’s not going to be a regular thing to start. The way I ended my second video “I’m not a preacher, I’m not a theologian, and I’m not a pastor. I’m just a a guy that went to Bethel for a few years, talking about what happened, and I’m concerned where things are going.”
@@thewestwoodhome Your experiences there matter in your testimony on how God delivered you out. Please keep doing what you’re doing!