BREAKING BETHEL EP 7: Chapter 1 Of The Prophetic Training Manual From Kris Vallotton
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2023
- We are breaking down the theology behind Bethel's Prophetic Training. Join us as we go over the proof text used and problems we find.
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I was born again almost 40 years. It was my awareness that I am a sinner that made me realise that I needed a Saviour. You can be sure there was no gold in me, only a broken, hot mess of a woman who had managed in 22 years to pack in a lot of sin and wickedness into her life. When I came to the cross and repented and believed my life did a 180. I just don't know how any one can get saved with Vallotton's message. I am so appreciative of people like you who take the time to point out this stuff. It seems rare anymore for people to really understand the gospel.
Thank you 🙏🏼
Found you after Mike Winger. It’s so good to hear someone with “church hurt” who isn’t deconstructing but rather reconstructing a biblical faith. Keep it up!
(I make sausage too!)
Nice! And thank you 🙏🏼
Right there. Bethel preaches a different gospel. It doesn't get much clearer than that.
Telling people they are awesome and worth so much blinds their eyes to one of the essential necessities to salvation, the revelation of their true condition. God doesn’t save us from being so great, He saves us from our sin. God doesn’t buy us with Jesus, He pays the debt of our wickedness with Jesus.
I can't thank you enough for this series. When I was coming up my family would do treasure hunts, and I couldn't help but think even at that early age that this was what God meant when he said "Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the test."
I appreciated how well you explained the damage that can come from this affirming/positive type of prophecy that bethel teaches.
I am thankful for how you’re diving into what they teach behind the scenes at BSSM. It’s been very insightful and helped me
To understand more of why I felt such a discomfort at a church in my early 20’s that was very connected to bethel and had practices brought back by the pastor and leadership. Relearning the gospel and studying context to think biblically has been so rewarding.
Thank you for what you’re doing. I pray more and more people’s eyes are opened and their hearts softened to the truth as they listen to you and others speaking out so boldly.
The level of neediness and insecurity that comes from these "prophetic" ministries is astounding. Our "destiny" if we are Christian, is "In Christ"...meaning, this is about Him and only Him. That truth and realization takes any power out of our hands and forces our vision back on Christ where it belongs now and forever in eternity...where we will be at peace without the angst to be noticed, or recognized, or validated, or praised for our "specialness"...cuz we need a little glory- something that humans were not made for and can't handle.
There is so much freedom found in this as our foundation!
14:31 says it all. A different gospel. Thank you Jesse for exposing doctrines of demons!
I believe the cross shows BOTH how deep our debt was and His great love ☺️
Agreed. 2:10 He was definitely wrong on that point. The cross speaks to both our sin-debt and His love for us/ the worth He sees in us.
Spot on.
I agree. And I understand that perhaps his response is due to the way that Bethel (and other new Agers) present our worth generally. This was not the best example.
Hey to clarify: yes it shows our value but the point here is that we must understand that the only value we have is because of the value he puts on us through the cross. We bring nothing to the table here but our debt. Hope this helps.
@@thewestwoodhome absolutely
Hey Jesse, I hope that you see the beauty of the fact that your comments section has more scripture than almost any other I have seen.
So many of us who have found ourselves in a similar position to you, cling so tightly to our Bibles, because it is the only thing we can trust, that we can believe. God is the only one we have met who isn’t a liar on some level.
A community of those people is watching your channel, and we’re all growing with you.
Thank you so much for this ❤️
I so appreciate this deep dive. I was involved in a cult called “The Way international” that was pretty close to what it bethel is. It’s so healing hearing your story 🙏🏽❤️
🙏🏼🙏🏼❤️❤️🙏🏼🙏🏼
I had a family member in The Way years ago. Praise God he's been out for many years.
It does clear it up, yet for those who desire to feel valuable, they have a tough time hearing it. They always will until they see how in debt we were and it is really about God being so good to save a people who were so not worth it! Praise God!
Exactly 👌🏼
If you have a child who is sick and needs an expensive medicine wouldn't you pay any price necessary to get that medicine? Because you love that child. And because of your love the child is worthy of it. Because of God's love for us we are worthy. Wouldn't it grieve you if that child insisted that he was not worthy? It grieves God when you insist on your unworthiness.
Good work ..To the best of my knowledge The early Christian church considered Prophesy as the declaration of Christ by revealing and drawing Him out of the scriptures to the congregation. Not by confronting people to try to expose their hearts. Conviction will happen by the Spirit through the Word.
I agree with you that the Cross brought value to us rather than showing how valuable we are.
Amen, exactly.
Bro this is awesome man thank you for going through this!
My church is divided rightnow because of the music we are playing which includes bethels and the lack of discernment when it comes to what’s being allowed and leadership.
Could you make a video on the music and why we should abstain from it?
I appreciate you man!
Been getting that question a lot
Man, Learning sound, biblical theology is hard work 😅 but there's nothing more satisfying. So fulfilling and rewarding. Praise the lord. Can't wait to see where your channel goes.
Thank you 🙏🏼
Yes - we have value because God loves us.
That's it right there 🙏🥰
I’m so glad your reaction video is helping gain more to follow your page. I sincerely hope and pray that this page is beneficial to so many coming out of that movement, of those in it to come out, of those who have loved ones in it to understand why things aren’t right but they don’t know how to explain it and well, so many more who, I pray, will benefit from it. Thank you for this content! I’m praying for you and your family.
Thank you 🙏🏼
It’s all about His Love. Yeah. Not about my worth. Truth is HE is Worthy 4:17 of ALL Praise. ALL Glory, ALL Honor. ALL Strength.
I finally subscribed after watching a lot of interviews with you from channels I watch. This series is great! I can't wait to see more.
Welcome aboard! Thank you so much for the support
Going point by point from direct text is super helpful! Thank you so much! I'm having difficulty deciphering truth. I'm in full Reconstruction mode from Bethel teaching! 👍
Colette, so glad you are unraveling Bethel teaching in your life...I have made a series in response to the "Rediscover Bethel" podcast series specifically for people like you maybe it helps th-cam.com/play/PLCZFj_Ex2zmpbID1Df2PKFaYe6CL5tdDG.html Blessings in Christ!
You nailed it regarding the cross and our value. That’s the Gospel the Scriptures teach! 🙌🏼
Everything you said at 24:00 onwards. Preach!!!!! Amen brother! This is what the NAR churches miss. The absolute staggering reality of the gospel.
Amen!!!!!!!!
Also 1 John specifically addresses this in ch. 4:10-“In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” It doesn’t get much clearer than that. This book is flat ignoring the true gospel of God. In fact, denying it.
You’re doing a good thing here, Mr. Westwood. Thank you so much for bringing a clean wind to dispel this evil fog.
Thank you for these teachings, Jesse!! It breaks my heart knowing there are still "mature Christians" out there who are believing the false over the truth with you and others who are exposing the fact that we are all sinners in desperate need of a Savior. Keep up the good work and God bless you. I also heard that you're not feeling well. I pray you're better soon and can return to this ministry you've been called to.
Another awesome video! Thanks again for sharing 😊
Glad you enjoyed it!
I really enjoy your videos, and I'm thrilled your channel is growing! Praying for you and your family. ❤️ ❤️ ❤️
Thank you so much!
I came to you through your response to Mike Winger's video. Thank you for creating this content and now making it available as a podcast. I deeply respect that your sharing is not a knee-jerk reaction but given after three years of reflection and exploration. It seems clear to me that the trajectory God took you through had purpose and meaning.
Thankyou , your analysis is Biblical , intelligent and done in a spirit of love ..
It's so refreshing to hear you go through their material and DIRECTLY contradict it through Scripture. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. False prophets evaporate like shadow in the light of the Gospel.
Thank you, Mr. Westwood.
Very welcome
Good stuff! Enjoying your videos. Keep 'em coming!
Thanks, will do!
I appreciate that you have your comments open.
You did an excellent job explaining the Gospel. 🥰
I wanna say I appreciate your videos they have both the truth that’s needed and the gentleness for those need it. (Not that bluntness is automatically bad haha). 🙏✨
Thank you 🙏🏼
The fact that God loves us so much is what makes us valuable, not that we are valuable or hold any value away from God. That is why the cross doesn’t mean our value but the debt we held before God. The value in and of itself is represented because of His love. What I think people so frequently get wrong is thinking we are so valuable that He had to give His life for us. Instead of understanding that the act of sacrifice that He did was because His love moved Him to save the worthless. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding. Lol
Maybe this is a bad example but when we say something has sentimental value, we do not believe the object is valuable to us because itself has value. That would make it replaceable with a copy. Instead our own memories or stories attached to the object give it value and make it irreplaceable. As those object, we are not inherently valuable but are given value because we are the subjects of His love. This loves comes from His power to choose and do as He likes.
Josue, I believe you have worded it very well and clear.
Thank you for speaking out
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
I recently went to a prophetic activation weekend retreat. From day one I felt in my spirit that I was going there to be an ambassador of Christ. I prayed protection on all involved that might not know any better and I ask for prayer regarding the outcome. It was all teaching out of this manual
Yes, God's love and sacrifice demonstrates HIS nature not our value.
Hope you are doing well, I have been around these sorts of stuff since I was 5 or 6 placing my hands on the tv screen agreeing with Oral Roberts. He started the seed faith teaching and was the beginning of word of faith movement.
We are created beings, we don't exist without something else allowing that. We have NO INHERENT VALUE, but God gives us great value by the love He has for us and His sacrifice evidences not that we have great value but that God values us greatly. So much that He would pay that great debt that we owe. It's all about God people, all about God.
At 30:05, this quote "Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less" is actually from CS Lewis. But it seems to be thrown in a total different context here. Lewis was talking about pride, not own worth
I get what you are saying!! I went to a church deeply affiliated with them and I had to deconstruct some things I learned too, I just want to tell you to be careful of embracing a lot of Calvinist theology as well. I’ve come to realize that all denominations have error.
Totally get it. I don't claim to be a full-on Calvinist at all. I just appreciate his approach to theology and I think he doesn't wonderful job systematically breaking down things to help get a cohesive understanding. I'm actually an Anabaptist.
@@thewestwoodhome oh wow!! I never heard of that. I’m going to research that 😃
It’s not that the love of God in the OT was measured by your hate for His enemies but it’s measured by the degree of your obediences. It always has and will always be this way. In the NT, your love your God is measured by how well you heed the warnings of staying away from false teachers like the folks at Bethel.
Love your content Jesse, I’ve watched almost every video!. While I agree with most of what you said, here’s food for thought. This is from Tim Keller. What something is worth is what someone is willing to pay for it. Things have no intrinsic value of it’s own but it’s value derives from the external. Gold is only worth something because a lot of people attribute worth to it and is willing to give up time/money in exchange for it. So what does that say about us when Jesus was willing to die for us? What do we hold dear so much that we’re willing to die to pay the debts of someone or something? Is that not our kids?
I also wouldn’t say God made a bad investment but instead an unfair trade. But that’s what grace is.
"Two wonders here that I confess/My worth and my unworthiness/My value fixed, my ransom paid/At the cross" -- "My Worth is Not in What I Own," by Keith and Kristyn Getty
Would be nice to see Mike Winger cover this book too… wow. How many people have taken in twisted theology from this book about Prophecy?
*too many!*
Yes. You nailed it again! It’s so sneaky how they just change the importance of realizing you’re a sinner by rubbing you up. Just suggesting and misleading like satan did with Eva in paradise. Telling half a lie..
thank you for you’re great video.
Thank you 🙏🏼
I think value is determined by what one is willing to pay? So its not that we were inherently valuable necessarily (but being made in the image of God, I do believe we have intrinsic value) but that we were clearly worth something to our Father in heaven.
We have worth because of Him yes. Outside of Him, and his sacrifice for us no. We don’t bring anything to the table.
John 3:16 should not be taken in isolation. Back up a few verses. God gave his son in a similar way that the Moses lifted the snake in the desert. The snake was lifted up and in the same way the Son who had descended to earth was lifted up from the earth. You could say “in this way God loved” that he lifted the Son from the earth for our salvation.
I don’t disagree with any of that. Only our value comes from Him valuing us. Outside of that we bring nothing to the table.
@@thewestwoodhome 💯
@@thewestwoodhome actually God doesn't value us but instead He paid the price of His son as He has mercy on us. His grace is beyond human comprehension. We are worthless in and of ourselves. God made us not because He had to but because of His relationship with Himself. We are the by products if you like of His love for Himself within His triune being. So I live my life in utter awe of who He is and what He's done in spite of us.
Thankful for your testimony 🎉
Thank you 🙏🏼
I was a member of a couple of charismatic churches and have attended another intermittently over the past few years. I became concerned when they had a guest speaker who, when I reflected, was definitely a prosperity preacher. And I KNEW better. At least I felt I should have.
The more i learn about the NAR the increasingly think that their teaching is a dangerous and unhealthy mix of Progressive Christianity, Prosperity Gospel and New Age thinking, with a strain of Universalism, rolled into one. The only remedy is the sound teaching you are presenting and for the congregation to actually study the scriptures for themselves.
Nailed it
Love what you are doing Jesse! I am praying for you and wanted to add a thought. The ministry of reconciliation is repentance AND forgiveness of sins.This is what Jesus told the disciples in Luke 24:45-47, and this is how we discern the voice of the One True God. Law AND gospel is needed to convict the proud heart of flesh and bring it to desire a Savior. In order to be reconciled to a Holy God, we must be cleansed. In order to be cleansed we must know where the filth is. In order to know where the filth is, we must examine our flesh in light of a standard of clean. Any sin we refuse to recognize cannot be washed and we have no part with perfect holiness. Just like Jesus told Peter that he could have no part with him if he did not allow him to wash his dirty feet. To which Peter replied, "wash my head & hands too." ( the parts of him that he already worked to keep ceremonially clean) Peter was convicted to recognize that he had no righteousness of his own and needed complete cleansing from Jesus. God bless!
While there's obviously a way to overemphasize the sin in someone's life by being harsh and unforgiving, the acknowledgement of the weight and penalty cannot be circumvented. I speak as someone who acted as a Christian for years but was caught in a trap of pornography. The only thing that brought healing and deliverance was truly hearing the Gospel message, which first establishes my absolute need for a savior because the wage of my sin is death. His kindness follows in that he gave His Son for me and gave me time to change instead of wiping me out in my sin, which I'm still in awe of. To abuse the text and say his "kindness" takes precedence over that is denying what His kindness even means or stems from. They're not exactly separate. They work together. So I'd say His kindness offered conviction instead of just handing me over to death.
Amen, brother Jesse, how we can we recognize the Kindness of God without being faced with our complete failure in the face of of God’s Holy Law? How can we see His Greatest Gift and be absolutely stricken by those nails driven into flesh of our sinless Savior on OUR (my) behalf? Oh my Beloved Jesus! 💔
If your child is very sick and needs an expensive medicine you pay whatever price needed to get that medicine. Because you love that child. That child is worthy in the sight of your love. Even so we are worthy in the sight of God's love. And of much value because of His love. Much more valuable than the sparrow.
Good teaching. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
On that question about what the cross shows us about our worth/what we owed... why not some of both? I don't mean that the cross "shows what we're worth" in a shallow sense. It's not like the Father valued us over the life of His Son. But I think the cross, and also really the incarnation, demonstrate that God values humanity, perhaps more than anything else in creation. Even the angels do not share in the glory that humanity is made to partake of through being united to Christ. It's all about God, not us, but we are so loved by God as to be made witnesses of and participants in His grace unlike anything else in creation.
Just a note: “fall short” in Greek IS the word “ SIN.” It’s an archery term. If you shot an arrow and it “fell short” of the target, you “sinned.”
Amartia (the Greek word you’re referring to) more literally translates to “missing the mark.”
Jesus’ sacrifice is an act of mercy we can never repay, we’re bondservants now and not our own. However, he gives us the right to become sons and reside in his house forever. Not on this earth… in the new creation. Which is the real inheritance.
The true gospel is so much more powerful and merciful than anything that these people think up to make us 'feel good'
So appreciate your podcast. Thank you for sharing your experience of the troublesome doctrines and practices of Bethel. You mentioned you have appreciated digging into Church history. Covenant Theological Seminary offers a free wonderful podcast of Ancient and Medieval Church History. I think you’ll love it.
Thanks for that tip!
We have value because we are made in the image of God, but out sins have separated us from God, and yes, have put us in debt.
It doesn't show us our Worth but Sin....hello... simple!
As my father would say, it's worth what they'll pay.
at 1:07 ' . . A lot of people were saying "What about John 3:16?"'
I'll bet most of these were young people who, because of current Evangelicalism's infatuation with being "nice" have NEVER heard the Gospel. They've heard "Jesus loves you" without any context of WHY He should NOT love you, and why God had to go to such historic lengths to save ANY-
It’s like Vallotton has “explained” scripture by wrenching it, twisting it and redefining what words simply mean. This is how they gain power-by controlling what words mean. Where is “find the gold” in Scripture? (Edited for spelling)
Isn;'t there a scriputre about "finding the gold in someone" ? (Isaiah). I am AGAINST Bethel...for sure...but I wrote a song using that scripture 10 years ago...
@@ramsareit Thank you! I looked up the scripture. The phrase is mentioned in Isaiah 13:12. The words state that the Lord will make men (human beings) harder to find than gold. The context is the Lord’s furious judgement on Babylon, and is an account of their violent overthrow and all the destruction that will come upon them, their wives and children. There is nothing about finding the gold “in” a person. It’s an entirely different context in which the Lord will decimate the population so that the Babylonians themselves will be rare. So I think there is a great gap between this scripture and the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit that Bethel wants to make. The contexts are very different.
Excellent!
Thank you! Cheers!
The book of Hosea is a great go-to to understand God’s heart and the redemptive process. By all accounts Gomer was not a woman of high value.
Thank you!
You're welcome!
I do prison ministry. The thought of wandering up to a murderer or rapist or pedophile or drug dealer and saying: "You're so amazing, God loves you" is pretty hilarious. Doesn't work. The plus side is that no one in prison needs to be told they're a sinner. Outside prison, someone has to be convinced they're a sinner before the gospel make sense and that's hard. I think a better approach for today's society is to focus on brokenness. Everyone in the world, whether Christian or non-Christian is a broken hurting person in desperate need of a Savior. I think that could be more fruitful than trying to convict someone of their sin and the reason everyone is broken and hurting is because of sin.
The "our value" gospel is a false one predicated on an errant understanding of the Greek word translated as 'loved' in John 3:16. Christ's atoning work on the cross is not indicative of any intrinsic value we possess -- rather, it demonstrates the magnitude of God's compassion toward us (Rom. 5:8). In other words, God did not choose us because of our value -- He chose us despite our inherent absence of value! Which is amazing when you think about it, really.
Can you explain what you think Paul means by "prophesying" in 1Cor 14:24-25? This has always stumped me a little. Do you think he expected it to be a frequent occurrence, and by many.? A whole episode on prophecy would actually be great! What do you think? I look forward to all your uploads! God bless you and keep you, and thank you for all your efforts.
I explained in the video? Addressed it about half way through
I agree, this would be wonderful. He did go through it a bit in the last third of this video, but more would be nice. Talking about how the old testament prophets called Israel out for wandering away from God is pretty consistent. Also something that stood out to me when studying, trying to shake the Hyper Charismatic influences I was raised in out of my head was the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4.
Jesus calls out sin she is hiding (having 5 husbands and living with a man who is not her husband) and her immediate response is to acknowledge him as a prophet. He then goes on to prophecy about an hour that is coming and is now here.
I think in a similar way, Paul asks the church in Corinth to desire prophecy, that is to have the Holy Spirit reveal the hidden sins of our brothers and sisters in Christ so that we can call them to repentance and be in right communion with the body. Keeping the bride of Christ pure and spotless for the return of the bridegroom (This being the prophetic looking forward to something that is already and not yet here).
I was looking into the purpose of the prophecy here and 1 Corinthians 14:31 talks about to instruct or encourage. The Greek words used here mean that the listeners will 1) learn (revelation) and 2) be called near or invited or invoked into. Speaking prophetic words by inspiration of God will both offer divine knowledge of Gods word and call the hearer into Gods plan of redemption for them. The conviction which happens to the unbeliever will take place from the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). As to whether it should be frequent and practiced by many I would believe yes. With the edification it brings, I believe the prophetic should be eagerly pursued in local churches.
@@thewestwoodhomeThank you for pointing that out. I don't mean to be so obtuse, but I can hardly hear the word "prophecy" and not automatically think "fortelling of a future event". That's why when you gave your definition, it just did not compute for me. But with the help of Preston Jackson's message (see below) and a review of your video, I am coming to understand. Frankly it feels like quite a paradigm shift. In all honesty, I started watching your videos to learn how to correct my hyper charismatic friends, but it turns out that my own ideas are being corrected.
@@prestonjackson6155Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this to me Preston! I've never looked at John 4 in that way before. I replayed Jesse's video with that in mind and a light bulb went off.
As I wrote to Jesse in a return comment, viewing prophecy in this way has been quite a shift for me. Your gentle words of instruction have very helpful. 😊
For the algorithm
Why doesn't the cross show both our worth to Him and how undeserving we are? Why can't it show both our value to God and how sinful we are?
I think there’s some confusion here. Jesus’ death on the cross was to pay for our sins, the debt that we owed. That was required. However, given that Jesus didn’t have to pay at all and he could have let us be condemned, his willingness to die (not the payment by death itself) would indicate that we are valuable to him. The difference is so close that it’s easy to just blend the two together and we often do. The danger I see in confusing them is downplaying the weight of our sin and turning Christ’s death into a sort of saccharine “awww he just loves us so much and we’re so super duper special!” as if the world doesn’t already have that message in other forms. It might be in everyone’s best interest to make the differences clearer: what was owed/required vs. Jesus’ willingness to DO what was owed/required.
The key question is why did God save us? What motivated Him to save us? It’s either because of who we are (valuable), or who He is (loving). Deut. 7:7 is the best example; God loved Israel, not because they were bigger in number, or more valuable than any other nation (they were the smallest and least valuable). He loved them because He loved them. The same applies to us in salvation, and therefore He gets all the glory, not us. It doesn’t mean that we aren’t valuable; we’re valuable because God loves us. God doesn’t love us because we’re valuable.
“The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
- Deuteronomy 7:7-8
@@AmericanGospel Yeah I agree that we are valuable because He loves us. I just think that its a false dichotomy to say it is either our (God given) value OR our sin that compelled Christ to the cross. Our value is completely based on HIM and HIS love for us, but that doesn't mean that the cross doesn't show our value. I think it shows both how much debt we owe, AND how much God values and loves us who are made in His image.
We are of more value than many sparrows according to Matthew
@@AmericanGospel That’s honestly the biggest hurdle even Christians struggle with. We’re always looking for a cause for God’s love. The idea that he simply chooses to and does because of his own internal reasons, not anything we do, is often forgotten. The really weird thing is that we give value to random things even though they do nothing for us all the time
@Raymond Shaffer He died for us before we were in Christ, which means He loves and values us as those created in His image. I know there is a danger of pride here, but there is also a danger in almost hindering the gospel piercing someone's heart, because they struggle to believe that God truly and deeply loves them, DESPITE their sin and worthiness of death and hell.
God loved us so much (our value) that he gave his son for us (the cost of our sins required the death of God's son to satisfy it).
I think the cross showed BOTH our worth and our depravity. John 3:16 also shows the free offer of salvation to anyone who believes.
There is so much depth in just that one verse, let alone the full context.
Our only worth comes from Him though that is the main point. Outside of Him, and his love, we have no value 👍🏼 I agree there is a whole lot packed into that little verse
@@thewestwoodhome fully agree. Our worth is fully found in Him, but in his grace he died for us while we were outside of Him (still sinners).
I was just removing the contrast at the cross where some say "the cross shows how depraved we are" and others say "the cross shows how much we were worth." My point is that it shows both.
Our sins left us guilty and deserving of death. The only price that could free us was the death of God's only son. "Our depravity" is shown in that no cost less than Jesus was satisfactory.
While at the same time, the fact that God loved us so much that he willingly paid that price shows that he put a high value on the redeemed relationship we could have with Him. In fact, the joy of that restored relationship was the motivation that made enduring the cross worth it (Rom. 12:2)
Analogy/anecdote: I had a car break down and I had to choose if the cost of repair was worth it to keep the car. If the repairs are too expensive, I will just get a new car.
God, in a sense, "got a new car" when he destroyed the world in the flood of Noah. And then he promised never to do it again. He chose instead to pay the price for the "repair" through his own blood.
I know it's an imperfect analogy, but it was just a way to show that God's promise of restoration shows he loved enough to pay whatever it cost to bring us freedom. All we have to do is repent and believe.
Enjoying your videos. Be blessed.
It’s so unfortunate that the misrepresentation of Christ’s quote is used that way. I despise when the Old Testament is misused to represent God as an angry vengeful God. It is filled with God showing his love and mercy to people outside Israel.
I think of the book of Jonah that’s an entire story about it. The Ninevites did unthinkable things to the Israelites. I mean, legitimate atrocities. Jonah’s response and reaction seems completely reasonable by human standards or if there were a “God says to hate your enemies” standard. Many might even say he was justified in thinking it unthinkable God should even give them a chance, yet that’s exactly what He does…and he puts Jonah through the wringer when he tries to argue and fight against Him.
As far as coming out of that kind of environment, may I ask how you currently feel about the "prophets" of today?
What are your thoughts?
I am currently in a church where "sozo" ministry is offered and I just have so many questions.
Long for truth just did something on Sozo . I believe it would answer some of your questions.
I just watched a podcast about this. Maybe you would like to watch it. On youtube, they are Long for Truth. It was an eye opener : )
In the Old Testament, prophets were expected to be 100% correct. The punishment for a prophecy that did not come true was death.
Under the New Testament, the punishment for false prophecy has changed (because of Grace) but I do not believe that the standard has changed. The standard of a true prophecy is still 100% accuracy.
6:50 ; doesn’t the treasure in the field parable call us to forsake all but the treasure of the Kingdom of God? Or the Gospel? That’s how I’ve always read it. I have never read it that Christ ‘sold’ everything for the treasure/us. I see how one might get there but is that right?
Jesse Great Video again! 28:00 minutes you talk about 1 Cor 5:19. If we look at of course the CONTEXT of 1 Corinthians 5:19 where it says "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespass against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." Who was doing this action? God! In Christ God… Was… Reconciling… Not counting their trespasses against them… And entrusting to us the message of reconciliation… Vallotton interprets this passage incorrectly we are not the ones "not counting their trespasses against them." God is the one not counting their trespasses against them through faith in Christ by reconciliation with God. When we preach the gospel we are preaching reconciliation, "be reconciled to God!" How is man reconciled to God? Through faith in the atoning work of Christ. So, Vallotton gets this all wrong! we're not the ones "not counting trespasses" against people, God is the one not counting sins against people by faith. And this actually warps the message of the gospel we couldn't count their sins against people anyways because we're sinners just like everyone else. The message of reconciliation in Christ Jesus is falsified here when he says that we should not count sins against people, but God is the one not counting their trespasses against them by faith in Christ and when we miss that message the gospel is missed and that's how Bethel, Vallotton, and Johnson miss and falsify the message of the gospel by focusing on "the gold in people." To be reconciled to God you must admit you're a sinner, repent from your sins, and place your faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ on your behalf. Vallatton isn't capable of being a minister of reconciliation so I will do it. "Be reconciled to God" by faith in the vicarious work of his son Jesus Christ on the cross on your behalf!!!
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I like the way you framed this: it wasn’t our worth, but our debt which we could never repay that necessitated Jesus’ sacrifice.
Ummm…I am having a moment…
Be back later.
I might add a notable distinction, David was not simply showing love to his enemies. It is true that Saul set himself up as an enemy of David, however, it states multiple times that he wouldn't touch Saul because Saul was God's anointed one. David had no problems murdering a great many of his enemies. Not desiring to be contrary here, just seemed like a notable distinction.
That aside, really been enjoying your videos, even though hearing about things going on at Bethel hurts my heart. :(
Also, I have a question--how do you converse/approach people who claim that by challenging Bethel/NAR teachings, you're being a "heresy hunter"? I know quite a few people who are NAR-adherents, and I don't know how to begin having conversations with them about this stuff.
Wow this is a meaty study! I fear sometimes that when we experience an abuse we run to another ditch. 'Calling out the gold' prophecy is clearly in the ditch. So what is the biblical reasoning for New Testament prophecy? 1 Corinthians 14:31 - For you can all prophesy that all may be instructed (manthanosin) and encouraged (parakalontai). When I looked up what these words mean, I found they mean 'to learn' and to 'call near' which was further translated as 'invite' or 'invoke'. You talked a little bit about conviction. I think we have to be careful to suggest that the prophecy spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14:24 is a direct conviction from man to man. What I mean by that is, kinda like you suggested with not hitting people over the head with Bibles - prophecy is not condemning, judgmental or mans effort to convict another man's conscience. John 16:8 talks about conviction being a job of the Holy Spirit and He will convict when man receives revelation. But anyway to get back to what prophecy means according to Scripture. I think if the body of Christ is 'learning' God's word through it (revelation), and/or God's people are being 'called into' or 'invited into' redemption through the prophetic word, then that is a sign the prophet is speaking in the Spirit of God. Interested to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Thanks brother!
From a few of the bethelites that I know they teach a separation between the god of the Old Testament and the gods of the new. There is an element of progressive Christianity it. I have gotten a ton of pushback for talking about Job because they (some) believe it shouldn’t even be in scripture because they see God as an angry God and Jesus as all loving. Weird. Have you seen that Jesse?
Yea they don’t really reconcile the two . Not all of them but most of the teachers just focus on the New Testament
Our worth before God is illustrated in the parable of the "Treasure foumd hidden in a field."
Matt. 13:44
And for continuity...in
Matt 13:38 just in a prior parable, Jesus explains, "The field is the world."
We dont buy ANYTHING from God. He sees us as a treasure and then ransoms the entire world just so He might take joy & redeem at the end of the age those who are hidden in Christ
Hi Greg, the treasure in the field is the Gospel.
I hate that when people take verses out of context to build their own teaching. Paul warned that the foundation has already been laid and to be careful how you build upon this foundation.
Wow! A "prophet of God" could not discern between Torah, "Love your neighbor," and Talmud, "Hate your enemies"?
You’re opening statement on the whole “Cross” worth & debt. I slightly disagree with you. You’re direct quote is “a debt that HAD to be paid” 2:10 / 5:10 that isn’t true, it didn’t have to be paid. The Cross IS the cost of our sin ( like you said ) BUT it does paint an image of how much He loves us because He WANTED to. You said “It had to be paid”. God didn’t have to save us, He could of left us to our own sin and debauchery and He had every right to but because He first LOVED us, He paid for our sin and our way back to Him and full relationships. what is the cost? The Cross. It’s both; The Cross IS our debt and our marriage vows, it speaks of our debauchery and Him wanting us back in right relationship.
It literally is both our sin and our worth. God didn’t have to pay that debt. NO ONE forced him on that cross. He wanted to and chose to come down and save us out of love for us because HE IS LOVE.
How would you say it is not contradicting for God to command a genocide of neighboring people and the same God saying love your neighbor and pray for your enemies? Would you not have to hate your neighbors in order for you to be able to kill them?
Might have been mentioned by someone else, but the author is misusing the parable of the field and the treasure. Jesus is not the man who sells all he has to buy the field….
I don't think that rebellion and sin change someone's worth or value. Humankind's value is established in creation with the affirmation that we are made in the image of God as well as in the incarnation (God becoming human). No one is worthless. For those who trust Jesus, the cross remedies the fact that those who sin are under God's wrath but that is in a different sphere to the value question. Intrinsic human worth is a divinely given gift and one that I would say is irrevocable.
I didn’t make it past the intro clip…. As someone who has had to dig into the differences,similarities and nuances of the old and new covenants, that is an extremely inaccurate statement
Agreed! That is the point of this video. To call it out 👍🏼
@@thewestwoodhome you did a great job too! I can’t believe the mental gymnastics they are doing with scriptures to come up with these beliefs.
I've heard a lot of bad things about Bethel but it's far worse than I've heard.
Literally easier way to explain I's summed up in two verses .. Romans 6:23 the wages of sin are death .. his death was the wage .. which then goes to .. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.. literally we learnwd this in Sunday school in awanas etc .. they don't reach right at bethel you have your work cut out for you cause those were the basics taught to us in the 1970s ...
Why would Christ die for us if we had no value........Both ideas are correct; we had a massive debit that we couldn't pay....but the Father sent his son to die and pay for us because he loved us.
Why would Gods Son go to the trouble to die in our place... for someone he didn't love.??.?
Never said He didn’t love. The focus on where our value comes from. He didn’t die for us because we are valuable, his death for us brings us our value. Much like how we can only love, because he first loved us
Hmm. I kinda disagree on the point about our value. I think we are really valuable because God valued us so much that He sent his Son to die for us while we were his enemies. I would say we dont deserve our value, but God gives us grace to be valuable in His eyes, the only objective measure that matters.
The way you presented it isn't wrong, but it kinda makes it feel more "transactional"? And while it's true that our sin debt had to be paid, I think there's a lot more than simply checking balances.
I really like Dane Ortlund's book Gentle and Lowly which looks at the heart of God while maintaining an evangelical point of view. God does love us and longs for us to be in relationship with Him.
I also like the song "My Worth Is Not In What I Own", which has the line:"Two wonders here that I confess: My worth and my unworthiness".
tl;dr I agree that we are unworthy of being valued by God, but because God values, we have value from the only objective point of view.
Right, our value comes from God valuing us, not in and of ourselves 👍🏼
@@thewestwoodhome Amen! Other than that, great video and great exposé of Bethel! Keep it up :)
People are so gunshy and hyper critical with terminology nowadays, expect that people will jump on you for not qualifying just about everything
Sounds like you’ve been talking to Calvinists
Lol nope, actually reading a lot of Anabaptist literature 😂
Now ,now. What does that mean?
You just need to read the Bible from start to finish to see what Mr. Westwood is talking about. I'm not a calvinist either.