uganda, kenya, Zimbabwe, nigeria are all christians countries that outlawed homosexuality and some carry death sentences for it.....seems to me its more about poor countries with poor educational systems that have these types of draconian laws, rather than it being based on religion
No, Saudi Arabia is extremely fundamentalist. Mecca literally *bans* non-Muslims from entering it. They have all the money and resources to be an inclusive, secular, liberal society but don't fucking choose to because they like their religion.
AugustusPugin It doesnt. Many fundamentalist religious people in general are against a homosexuality. Hell homosexual marriage wasn't recognized in the states for almost it's entire existence and had terrible connotation and it still thus now. Must be that 60 IQ right?
@@DaneAraux what "counter terrorist unit" would that be? She said she's "doing counter terrorism" in her year off work... Yh I don't think she's an authority on anything, especially considering she couldn't answer basic questions and multiple people have called out straight up false claims by her which show she's not knowledgeable about anything she's talking about.
Conflating Islam and Christianity especially when it comes down to homosexuality is fucking laughable. Destiny is out of his element on this one. This video is riddled with false equivelances.
I'm confused as to why she can't explain what a Hadith is and why interpretations might differ. For those who don't know hadiths are essentially things Muhammad said. They contain a list of people that passed that saying down the line so "Muhammad said to john, said to jack said to mike that Homosexuality is wrong". Muslim scholars have systems through which they rate the trustworthiness of each of the people in the line, and as a result give different hadiths different levels of trustworthiness. Scholars might disagree on what hadiths are valid and what ones are not, and as a result differ in there beliefs. Also there are somewhat different beliefs concerning the Qur'an, as sometimes the essence of a given section is emphasized above and beyond what is literally being said. In addition, people often "work around" some of the laws. For example, in Islam, interest on loans is illegal, as is, by proxy, a mortgage. Instead, Islamic banks do this. "as the basic difference is that rather than us lending money to a client that they would then put towards a house, we would buy and own the house and charge the client a rent to live there. "Only some of the money that the client pays in rent goes to the bank, the rest goes towards gradually buying the bank out of its share of the property" I'm not saying the Qur'an isn't generally taken more seriously and literally than other holy books, but there certain is real world examples of Muslims understanding it metaphorically, or working around it.
The Bunnet Hypothesis Yes, those types of convos with muslims and non-muslims included talking about these sort of ways of going about things are what I think is needed to make a better development than the general discourse we have now.
Banks still have interest rates in Islam it just falls under a different code for example Libya under gaddafi they claim to not have interest but, they actually did!
As a muslim i myself dont understand my religion completely. My parents taught me to believe in one god and mohammad is prophet. If you follow five pillars of islam, you can pretty much live peacefully since they dont bother or harm others at any lengths. The reason muslims dont try to be friend-friend with other religion(not in all cases) is because of dietary laws, protectionism. If we dont follow one rule properly, it might devalue of other religious work such as if you drink alchohol once, next 40 days your 5 prayers are not accepted to Allah. Marriage with other religion is quite difficult because of same reason. Some sectors of muslim thinks crabs are halal other thinks haram. some thinks full face veil is needed others say covering your head is enough for muslim women. So it is not that muslims hate other religions its just we have to protect our normal way of life and there are varities.
It is true that my religion said that it should kill infidels, idolators but it depends on certain context. Some part of quran talks about politics, some society, some spirituality, some warfare, sometimes stories. So beheadings and killings are important when a war breaks out.Even then there are other naratives like truce, peace deal, blah...blah..... Which one should we follow we dont know. So in general we just ignore those violent parts. Most of us do. One sentence in koran has no importance without the context. Sometimes BBC makes shows like" when it will be accepted to be muslim and gay". Never......because in order to be muslim you have to believe that you cant be gay. Those who follow it are muslims and those who dont are not.
She acknowledges that Christians can break the rules, but somehow all Muslims are magically obliged to follow all the rules of the Qur'an and the hadith? Feels like a double standard to me
Very interesting talk, but I feel like the caller is being a tad obtuse on the malleability of Islam. There are literally hundreds of different Islamic sects that are mutually incompatible with with each other, and which label each other as heresy. You cannot simultaneously hold the view that you HAVE to take the holy texts literally, but also acknowledge that different Islamic sects have different beliefs. Clearly Muslims have different interpretations. One good example is the prohibition on alcohol in Islam. Maajid Nawaz bring up the point that the original translations read as banning drinks "made from grapes" but later scholars interpreted that passage to also mean all alcoholic beverages. Another good example would be violence against LGBT people. While you may never convince an Islamic fundamentalist that gays are anything but hellbound sinners, you may be able to convince them that it is not their place to meet out "justice," that only God can be their judge. While that is not an optimal viewpoint, it is still a better position than the status quo in many Muslim countries, and one that I think is feasible given enough time and effort.
Wow this woman has so many misunderstandings of how The Quran is interpreted. And Destiny doesn't know that much either but he calls her out on it though...
Thats what i was thinking, i was like « but if the coran is made to be understood like she says, why i’m not like i should be if it was like she’s claiming to be ? Doesn’t make sense, if i take what she says for truth, i should be killing people in the street right now.
I don't see how naming Islam as a whole as a "threat" is productive, when fundamentalists are something like .2% of all Muslims. Obviously there is some element of the religion itself that inspires them, but generalizing it to all adherents of the religion is totally counterproductive and could ultimately be harmful to Muslims at large.
.2% are you fucking out of your mind? The figure changes from country to country but generally the majority of Muslims agree with Islamic fundamentalism such as Sharia law.
It's weird how they always say "what is happening in Europe", while not being specific about what they mean. Feels like half the people who use that phrase don't actually know much about European countries, and the second half has visited one part of one country in Europe and think they can generalize something from that. I was in downtown LA when I was in the US 12 years ago. There were black people hanging at the corners in gangs and we were told to lock our car when we went to those areas. Why don't you focus on that lol, that's way worse than most areas you can find in European countries. Yes there are ghettos in London, yes there are a few bad neighborhoods in Sweden, yes there has been problems with certain groups of immigrants from northern Africa to many European countries. But when they say "What is happening in Europe" I always feel like they are ignoring better examples in their own country when it goes to ghettos, friction with immigrants and rich areas becoming ghettos. Just my thoughts on that phrase :)
Martin Slow i agree but you said a few bad areas in sweden, i wouldn’t say that no-go zones where the police won’t go is a bad area seems more like a warzone
Why don’t i use my real name Because i am retarded Yeah. That does sound bad. Luckily there's no such zones in Sweden. It was literally a list of 52 places, where police had 'ever felt threatened in duty'. Then a crazy old journalist made it a list of 'no-go zones'
probably because that's not what they're talking about you, you're just as bad as destiny who goes but MUH christianity every time there is some complaint against Islam.
James Banner No. No one has claimed that. But the alternatives aren't 'ignore everything' or 'Sweden is a desolated hellhole'. That's fucking retarded.
It's infuriating the way he responds to every atrocity she lists with "But Christians....". I don't think destiny is capable of understanding the horror she is describing. It's impossible to believe he can when he compares Christian treatment of homosexuals in America to Islamic treatment of homosexuals in the Muslim world. I was kicked out of my house at 16 years old by my Christian parents for kissing a boy. Not for a single second did I worry they would kill me or report me to some theocratic government for execution. Christians in America have a very simple principle they live by. They hate the sin but love the sinner. This principle does not exist in Islam and that difference is everything.
russell d I agree it kind of obfuscates and stops the conversation from focusing on Islam and goes into comparing religions when both of them are anti-theists. Kinda boring
russell d All religions are the same. Bullshit. Go to a very Christian country in Africa and people are the same than the Middle East. What makes people good are Secular belivies and education.
screamityeah Such nonsensical blather. The idea that all religions are the same shows a total ignorance of how religions evolve through time and culture. Obviously there are cultural components to religion. But that doesn't make all religions the same. All religious beliefs manifest in the world in their own unique way. And the idea that secularism makes someone good is so bizarre. I don't know what your idea of good it is but it is a completely subjective concept. In general people that are empathetic, kind, understanding, patient, and have good critical thinking skills live productive and peaceful lives. There are many people with those qualities in all religions. You have to add a little depth to your thought if you want to have accurate reflections of reality in your head. "Religion is bad. Education is good," is far too simplistic.
russell d Compare every country with Secular belives and/or secular governments vs the ones that are more religious. In a very general way the Secular ones are way better to live and be happy than the ones where religion has a big influence in the population
I am very right wing but russel d , I sense you are coming from a very nuanced position and appreciate the wisdom of your evaluation. it seems you have forgiven your parents for doing that when most people would be angry.
So being raised in an Islamic background has nothing to do with a person's beliefs or actions?? Stop excusing bad ideas. People like you are part of the problem.
Holy shit it's the interview that keeps on giving! This is great! It's like I'm at the end of a concert, and the crowd is cheering encore! and the band keeps coming back out.
So she works with counter-terrorism but doesn’t know that there are different exegesis of the Quran? Tafseer al Qurtubi Tafseer al baghawi Tafseer al ibn katheer Tafseer al jalaleyen Tafseer al tabari Thats just off the top of my head
I highly doubt of this woman’s honesty, there where some redflag’s in what she was talking about, one of them was how she put Islam in the center of the problem, with as a proof her past in pakistan, the problem is why didn’t she talked about asian muslim countries or North Africa muslim countries, thats the problem she think pakistan is the basic state of muslim countries, that is misleading ( and i’m not even talking about lebanon, iran etc )
shurednichso, Wait where did I say that I agree with American foreign policy? I agree with everything you're saying. Except that your view of how the US Government works is a bit naive. They do what they want and don't care what the people want, so blaming random Americans in youtube comments for the situation in Syria doesn't make too much sense. For example I voted for Obama partially due to his promises to close Guantanamo and withdraw form Iraq, but he didn't do any of these things and simply continued the same destructive foreign policy as before. Many people, believe it or not, also voted for Trump because they thought he was less hawkish than Hillary. But he is still doing the same shit. They don't care what we want. Yelling at American people over this is like yelling at some peasant because Louis XV started a war with England. Real democracy.. at least at a federal level is completely dead.
shurednichso, But to get back to the muslim migration thing, the fact remains that the majority of even non-Islamist Muslims in the world are very very conservative by western standards. Listing to me all the bad things happening to some people in some random Muslim country isn't going to change that. Ranting about who is responsible also isn't going to change it. Mass immigration of muslims to some relatively liberal country the point where they reach a percentage non-trivial to politics WILL have negative consequences from a liberal perspective. You getting angry about it doesn't change this. And yes of course this all depends on the immigration policy. As the ex-muslim girl said in this video, if the immigration happens slowly enough, then muslims will integrate (as has happened in the US to an unprecedented degree). But if it happens too quickly they won't. She is also right, however, that people with Destiny's views on the subject will not support a smart immigration policy though. They'll just equate any slowing of immigration or consideration of people's ability to integrate as racism against brown people. That's why it's important to acknowledge reality when making laws for your nation. Not just surrounding this issue but any other. And also, just to clarify, as a LIBERAL, I disgree politically and socially with Christian fundamentalists in the US as well. The reason they are such a problem in the US is because they're a very large percentage of the population. Thus the Republicans pander to them for their votes. Given that most of the world is very conservative by western standards (*not ALL, but the majority), as a liberal you should be wary of an open door policy of mass immigration to your country. I wish this weren't the case, but unfortunately it is.
Are right-wing Christian extremists trying to acquire nuclear material to bomb American cities? Do they have the general belief that all Americans are infadels that must die? Seems like the potential threat from Islam is much greater, they just haven't had the resources to realize it yet.
سلام عليكم muslim here from saudi arabia. i have no idea, who is the lady,destiny debating. but she doesnt understand quran or even know what shes talking about! if she thinks you have to kill gay people.this type of thinking what we called wahabizim.(isis precursors). it's popular in my country and we fought that ideology way back.but, sadly was backed up by our government. now things are different with the new ruler(prince mohammad bin salman )they are pushing wahabisim away and we fighting it all over again but this time government with us. the young lady says shia worshiping Ali ? like wtf even she doesnt know shia have sects too, and they all dont worship Ali . they see him as prophet mohammad who doesnt do mistakes and chosen by god through his prophet mohmmad to be the next leader to muslims. sunna see it differently they take democratic approach by choosing the next leader . both are extremely deeply debatable among sunna and shia on this matter. since shia claim is not democratic and sunna says it's not ali the next leader . and they are more false infos about how she thinks islam and (tafseer)!. she thinks everyone agree on quran and disagree on hadeeth in terms of interpretation. this clearly shows to any muslim she have no idea about tafseer and there are different way of reading quran depending on scholar. like shafei or hanbali or ....etc. all have different approach to it. there are other many retarded stuff to mention,but really when u want to read quran, u read books that interpretes it clearly, from sunna and shia to know the general idea. Most muslim in saudi arabia dont know wtf in the quran actually and they cant argue about it because they know they are ignorant as fuck. of course, am talking about the majority common people. like you and me who are not going in depth to what are the teaching of quran and hadeeth is all about.
Quran condemned gay people not only Whabizim. I agree that Quran is diffcult to read without interpretation but anyone who speak Arabic can understand these verses: quran.com/29/28-38 , quran.com/7/80-82 , quran.com/26/160-170
You're right, however I feel it only fair to mention that (in an ideal muslim world) their ought to be 4 witness' to the homosexual act between two people who then need to be "interviewed" separately by a judge before any sentence can be passed on the alleged homosexuals and if any two statements differ even slightly I believe the case is dismissed; iirc a lesser punishment is passed onto the people accusing the former two. Regardless, I'm 99% certain that it is extremely against Islamic law for any punishment to be carried out by the general public which is what is happening in some Muslim countries right now in the Middle East and some parts of Asia which is what op was referencing. On a somewhat related note the Quran is a difficult read even for those Arabic speaking; to my shock and surprise it's actually an intelligently written book for what it is - at least in comparison to other biblical books (such as the Bible and Torah).
You live in Saudi Arabia. Why the fuck would you support Islam? You weren't legally allowed to drive until a month ago. I mean feel free to believe whatever you want, but your very nation is evidence of what goes wrong when Islam is a powerful force in the ethos and government of a society.
@TheJimmyplant with all due respect brother, you are ignorant about what is islam about. if you think my country represent islam , please tell me why we are fighting muslims like in yamen and qatar right now? or better why we are changing laws,(not women driving which is a right for man and women in islam), and be ok with a dictator ruler who's wasting our money by buying Da Vinchi painting that doesnt even represent our islam(450$million) ?. islam teaching has nothing to do with our secular/dictator ideological method our rulers use in saudia arabia. we are covered by Usa that why we still exist. if they decided to erase us they can. but islam will not because we dont represent it by any shape or form. we helped growing extremists from it. but that will happen even if u r athiest here. we have good muslims but most of them in the prisons or dead by torture. we have many bad things. and many protesters are getting killed by hundrends in the torture prisons every year. good people only can be silent, till we can find a way to change the system of ruling first.
@Ma Nal اقرأي مره ثانيه لم اذكر هالتناقض . لم اقل من يمثل الاسلام بالسجون انما من يعتبرون مسلمون هم هناك اي من الشعب السعودي. حكومة بن سلمان الان بصفنا في محاربة الوهابيه بعد ان كانوا بصفهم . بس هذا مايعني انه بصفنا لاهداف ثانيه. مثل خلق مناخ للتطبيع الاسرائيلي مثلا؟ او اي هدف ثاني مختلف.
she kept using personal antedcotes contradicting her points. "I have the best muslim friends in America who truly love America because of it's freedoms" vs. "NO MUSLIM CAN CELEBRATE THEIR FAITH DIFFERENTLY THAN ANOTHER MUSLIM, THERE IS NO INTERPRETING THE QUARAN DIFFERENTLY". like girl your whole argument is an argument about what you believe?
She’s really doesn’t understand what she is talking about. For someone who was Muslim for some of her life she should at least know how to pronounce Arabic words correctly.
This smells like pentagon propaganda trying to trick Destiny & his stream?! Like she call Muslim differences as cults and a lot of degradatory stereotypes....
You will have a hard convincing anyone that inbreeding and taharrush are good. I hope this isn't just deflecting to Christianity and saying that because it reformed we should gamble on Islam doing so
David Cedarwood You can't really reform Islam. Either you convert Muslims, make them all Quaranists or change the perspectives of Muslim people of Islam themselves.
You do understand that taharrush is the arabic word for harassment? As far as inbreeding is concerned most of the Muslims I've ever known,having worked in the ME for a number of years, were not married to their cousins so its not even as common as most people think.
Christianity reformed in a more conservative direction though. It didn't lead to a more liberal church, it lead to people having their own views on what Christianity is and how it should be represented. Basically what Islam has become
The Hadith is a collections of texts and stories that were written to dictate how Islamic people should live their lives and laws that are not talked about nor explained in the Quaran. For example. Praying 5 times a day is not mentioned in the Quaran at all....but it is talked about and explained in the Hadith as what a good Islamic persion should do.
@mukbangboss1783 She speaks about Islam from her prespective. Not what the actual text teachs. Muslims do not interpret the Quran to mean what they want it to mean. And you won't see Muslims arguing about the actual text. The disagreements tend to come from Hadiths, which unlike the Quran isn't the verbatim word of God!
@mukbangboss1783 Her arguments come from her emotions. And not from what Islam actually teaches. Islam does not support terrorism. Islam does not allow forced marriages Islam does not allow oppression Islam does not support liars. And she's not wrong about there being Muslims that are extreme. But it's a very small minority and not a majority. She's just been focusing on the loud minority that she didn't like, instead of what the religion actually teaches!
Lol she has no idea about Islam at all. Don’t listen to this lady. She’s deliberately lying about Islam and Muslims. As soon as she said Ahmadis believe in the peaceful passages..that’s when you know she has no idea
It is really weird to me how relaxed destiny is when talking to be who openly advocates for a society of would kill gays and other. Or brushes off the idea of mosques having another system of law layered on top of normal law. He just a woman explain to him that many Muslim women in the west don't even know they have right. Good luck with that social pressure, that is unless they ship you off to Pakistan to be married off or killed. I think Destiny is trying to do a good job of being an open person and not overplaying his hand on issues he is not well educated on. I think this attitude is generally good but can also stop Destiny and other from really sticking up for their own believes.
@@bokajon it's easy when you've had experience with them; they can't help but lie throughout conversations just to feel relevant It's hard for them *not* to lie, you can tell because they derail conversations when they feel like they can get a story in that's relevant to the current topic
So homosexuality is okay in Islam as long as you don't practice it, yeah, totally compatible with Western values. Also, too bad that one guy didn't go into the absurd detail of how the Qur'an has scientific evidence of certain things before they were actually discovered. The amount of interpretation of words and confirmation bias to match scientific concepts and find coincidences is laughable, especially in how effective it is in converting people.
18:04 Destiny *destroyed* Protestantism in this debate Edit: I’m not very far into the video so maybe Destiny brings it up, but with the law of abrogation thing, isn’t that what all Christians do to justify not keeping Kosher? They say that Jesus fulfilled the old law so they don’t have to follow the dietary laws in the Old Testament, so the old is thrown out in favour for the new.
Yeah I mean she said her job is to identify the extreme and dangerous sects of Islam so that would make sense. Just based on this I would imagine she would be an expert on the matter, moreso than Destiny and his viewers.
TDragonus I mean yes she did lie on certain parts for sure. The entire thing on Muslims that grew up here was for sure out of her ass. Most of the Muslims that go to Mosque are absolutely not that religious. I mean sure they are """"""religious""""""" but more like the the whole "Christmas Christian". I used to be a Muslim that was raised and born here
@@aaaronobaid3571 Lol. Hijab would stomp out. He whines about CosmicSkeptic being rude and all. Have you seen Destiny? The ad Hominems will start at minute 3.
this woman is lying, she even struggles to make herself believe in that what she just said. the akward silence after her big claims made me really suspicious and then she follows up with a yes to her own statement? really dude.
that's exactly what I was thinking. she said something like "I was radicalized in Pakistan." it's a weird way to talk about it
6 ปีที่แล้ว +5
thought maybe some people take time to organize their thought before they say something ? you think muslims women are not hold by force and violence especially in Pakistan and more? dude... welcome to the internet. read some stuff
I feel like her statements regarding her accent are a lie. It's very hard to adapt to a specific accent unless you're a young kid. So unless she has been training her accent and willingly changing it, there's no way you she could've gotten to that level of accuracy. But I don't know, maybe I'm wrong...
MagnificentXXBastard Triggered much? Even though she grew up in an English-speaking country, changing your accent in the way she did is still a pretty uncommon. So unless she willfully tried to change it, there is small chance she could've done it unconsciously. Not even well trained actors that travel between the US and UK can change their accent naturally like that. She might be the exception, but it's still something to have in mind.
40:00 yeah ,she is not lying just taken 101 classes and making mistaken ideas. In Quran there is clear verses ,here is no different interpretations in all schools ,it is on a number of subject .The rest are unclear or not detailed verses ,with the help of hadiths n other modules many schools have different interpretations though not too different.
From a recent BBC R4 program, it sounds like the result of the milgrom experiment weren't as conclusive as the author would have had people believe. Further research necessary I guess but I think I'd definitely be wary of citing it these days.
The distinction between secularism and laicity is evident in tensions between Quebec and the rest of Canada. Laïcité in Quebec means NO religion in the public sphere, so they can ban religious symbols (like, a sikh's turban) being worn by anybody who works for the government. This is supported by a majority of Quebeckers but is hugely contentious and the rest of Canada sees it as a violation of the fundamental right to practice your religion. My secularism doesn't depend the lady at the DMV not wearing a cross. I always saw this in terms of the difference between the Anglo and Franco conceptions of freedom and the relationship of the individual to the state.
What the actual fuck? Dude at 1:50 : “So these [really fucked up] laws to chop of hands and execute people are just there to deter everybody from doing the wrong thing. Also there’s some exceptions, you know, if they were literally dying or mentally handicapped. Makes sense?» Destiny: «Yeah!» 1. Deterrence is the purpose of ALL criminal laws 2. That doesn’t justify it at all 3. All these qualifiers are fucking ridiculous. The laws still exist and are awful. Stop excusing fucking atrocities.
Listening to this guy is giving me a headache. Now he’s arguing about the creation of the universe like “time” somehow is the master variable that everything adheres by. There’s no reason to think there is a start (nor an end) to everything, apart from life as we relate to it. This dude hasn’t thought this through at all. “The universe has to be designed by someone because mathematically speaking the values couldn’t even be a tiny bit off for us to exist”. What? It’s all chance and probabilities, my dude. For every place that’s habitable there’s unimaginable amounts of places that aren’t. Religion is really such a simplistic and primitive way to view our existence. The only reasonable position is to admit that we simply don’t know and can’t know.
So something one of the guys said is that Saudi Arabia is really problematic. I am pretty sure that most Muslims will agree with this statement "Saudis act like hot shit". When I was a Muslim there were so many of these Saudis that would come into the Mosque, that was mostly people from Pakistan, and treat us like absolute shit.
Christians Calling someone a slur for wearing something is a lot different than Muslims forcing you to wear something. Islam is not the same as Christianity.
Gato Loco there's no excuse for ignorance. I know there are plenty of idiots he debates but I don't make such small minded assumptions based on authority/credentials
lightningfrom 93 Where did OP question her credentials? He could have any number of reasons for not wanting to watch a rando debate for 4 hours. You have to understand that there are added dynamics when destiny debates a skeptic with a lot of fans vs a random person on twitter. Some people like to see debates with large backings for the memes. Take the johntron debate for example, its one of destiny's most popular debate vids. People really liked it not because johntron was an intellectual powerhouse, but because he said some stupid shit and it had career implications for him. It spawned a lot of quality memes. It was entertaining in a different way. Just because this guy doesn't want to watch this persons video, doesn't mean he's discrediting her experience. He's not making any assumptions about her credentials... he just might not think this would be as entertaining as some person with a large backing.
Based on previous interactions/debates with twitter users on Destiny's channel you can't really blame him for coming to this conclusion - most of them happen to be actual idiots spewing some idealistic shit that fits their deranged narrative.
Also, one note about the last callers views on Lawrence Krauss' "Universe from Nothing." He is misunderstanding the point of the book. The point is not "oh where we thought there was nothing, turns out there is something." The REAL point of the book is "There may be no such thing as nothing." The caller is making the classic argument from ignorance when he invokes the watchmaker analogy. Just because you cannot give an exact scientific accounting over every detail on the origins of the universe does not justify the insertion of a God; otherwise yours is a God of the gaps that is ever receding in the face of science.
I know this is old but WOW is this woman’s view on religion so warped. The fact that she thinks religion should be taken literally and without any nuance or flexibility is because of her own way of thinking; that has nothing to do with the religion itself. It doesn’t help that she generally just believes things about Islam that are simply not true. Her family and friends had a poor understanding of Islam and now she does too. The fact that the Quran states that it’s not your right to take the life of another human being outside of self defense; that alone would rule out almost everything she is claiming about Islam.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is the „father of the turks“ He led the turks into enlightenment and introduced a secular approach, executed islamic extremists and is especially celebrated in the region of izmir/turkey. His signature is everywhere where kemalists are. It is a symbol of secularism and freedom for turks. A lot of people where it as a tattoo
I've understood the 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's' differently. Give Caesar what he asks for because his face is on the money and is his, but give yourself to God because you are made in the image of God. Caesar (as Son of God) and his things are not things of worship/love, but God, Jesus, and people are. Maybe my understanding could still be connected and used for the point of following local laws? Or maybe I am misremembering the context of your specific quote.
Religion is a problem, just be good people instead of just listening to words of a book. Islam is definately the worst in doing the most horrible things and that's a fact if you wanna see it majority wise rather than just in a specific area.
Destiny big fan of yours. Love how u get fans from across the world on for different perspectives. Try and get an educated african dude on one time for a change - you have a willing one right here☝🏽
whats the hate so much with islam i dont understand, if the muslim are doing wrong its there own self wrong doing not the religion, to spread lies or even truth and religion with hating and saying bad words to other people its the lowest kind of morality too dark for your heart and mind. please brothers sister just ignore the ignorant and pray for them. may Allah forgive us all
I'm not 100% clear on what you are saying, but it sounds like you think people shouldn't criticize religion? Many religions say that you should kill unbelievers, and i think it's entirely fair to point out that something lile that is pretty messed up.
I think the problem with the second caller using Turkey and Albania as examples is that those two countries are extremely atypical Muslim countries really. They're secular for sure, and living there is not really that different from living in a Western European or Eastern European country, but when you look at the reasons Turkey and Albania are so secular it becomes kind of muddy to use it as an example. Turkey used to be quite religious when it was the Ottoman Empire, not Saudi level religious, but still quite religious. However when the Ottoman Empire lost World War 1, the religious establishment was completely discredited and the Sultan signed the humuliating Treaty of Sevres which pretty much made Turkey give up it's own sovereignity. Mustafa Kemal kicked out the foreign invaders the Sultan and religious establishment had sided with, kicked out the Sultan and made the Ottoman Empire into the Republic of Turkey. However the secularism in Turkey wasn't some kind of natural progression like it was in other countries, it had to be forced. Religious or traditionalist opposition had to be put down and modernisation had to be forced undemocratically on the population. The reason Mustafa Kemal was not overthrown was because he had cemented himself as defender of Turkish independence and because most of the population at the time was illiterate, allowing him to make sweeping changes without much opposition. Turkey would continue to forcefully impose the secular values onto the population, which is why following the 1950's Turkey became rife with military coups. Whenever the military (which acted pretty much as the defenders of the Kemalist status quo) felt the Secular, Democratic nature of Turkey was threatened they took power by force. Same goes for Albania who have a pretty secular country due to their history. Albania used to be Christian before the Ottomans took over, and one of their national heroes, Skandeberg is romanticized for his revolt and guerilla campaign against the Ottoman yoke. As such Albanian culture has been kind of apathetic to fundamentalism, on top of that they became Communist after World War 2 which further discredited a religious society on the population, as the Soviets forced State Atheism on Albania. Tl;dr: Turkey and Albania are kind of imperfect examples, because the reason they are secular is due to secular values being forcefully (and sometimes violently) forced on the population. It wasn't a natural process and the normal people did not go along with this without opposition.
+Red Firefly You're missing my point here. My point isn't that Muslim nations can't become secular democracies because Islam is just inherently worse than any other religion. My point is that Turkey and Albania are not good examples of stable, secular, democratic Muslim countries because they are abnormalities in the region and there's a historical precedent that's allowed them to more fluidly transition into a modern society. Since you want to pivot to Christianity, I'll say that the same applies to Europe. Countries that generally have a larger connection to their pre-Christian past, or have a strong sense of nationalism that supercedes religion generally make for more fluid transitions into democracy. Greece, Germany and Estonia are examples of this. Greece were forced to become a Kingdom when they became independent, but the Greeks were never really fully on board with an autocratic King, as such the monarch was pressured into democratic reforms and ultimately when he tried to hold onto some of his power, he was thrown out of the country. Estonia to be fair became independent just 100 years ago, but they also have a tradition of secularism and democracy thanks to their connection to their pre-Christian past. Germany aswell, now you might say, how does Germany count when they had the Nazis. Well frankly the Nazis were largely the exception, not the rule. The fact that Germany was able to peacefully transition from the Kaiserreich to a democracy after World War 1 with minimal bloodshed speaks volumes of this. This also applies for most countries that were under the Eastern Bloc or Soviet Union, both Christian and Muslim.
19:10 I know this is to years old but, holy shit she looked right here about Maajid Nawaz. He was making a documentary with Sam Harris during this time as a reformer of Islam. Holy shit, I can't take anything else she says seriously. How can you push for Islamic reform and say one of the foremost people advocating for Islamic reform says he not a reformer. That's so disingenuous.
MagnificantXXBastard - No, "Western" is typically used as shorthand for European style liberal/secular culture. But the most significant political/economic/military actor of that kind these days is arguably the US, which is not a Western country. West refers to the cultures of Western Europe, not the Americas.
MagnificantXXBastard - The term describes a set of cultural traditions. And like it or not, the Americas have their own established cultural traditions. It is true that there is a large colonial European presence here, but those are newer traditions which are not as well established here. It would be true to say that there is a large Western influence in the US, but not that the US is itself part of Western Europe.
Not sure what you're talking about... When the rest of the world refers to the West they are speaking about America, Europe, and Canada.. America is part of the "West" so it would be absurd to say it has a Western influence when it IS in fact the West.
The rest is "whatever"? No, it is the Americas. The US and Canada are not separate. I know what the wiki says, but I refute it. I live here, and it is only Euro immigrants who believe that they are in the "West", because they are so slow to assimilate. Calling the US and Canada "Western" is laughable colonialism.
Uhh we all know the term is based on and derived from colonialism.. That isn't really the point.. Your refutation is moot since these are already established terms that are widely used. The US/Canada is every bit as "Western" as Western Europe is. Lastly it is not only Euro immigrants who believe such things, references to "Western" people and places are heavily established in Asia, Middle Eastern, and African nations.
33:00 before this I have disagreement but tolerable differences , I seen tons of dawah or missionary works by muslim Never I seen deception was used just to convert , I don't know,it is just a anecdotal incident or what? I starting to doubt her claim.
Does my dude Destiny expect to learn anything from these people, their knowledge was laughable at best? Talk with people who know their stuff, both pro-islam and anti-islamic people kinda like Robert Spencer (not the alt-right guy). People who actually know the Quran and the Hadhits and who can relay what they know like intellectuals.
Destiny, I'm interested in watching a debate about functional Psychopaths. Are they a neccessary "evil", or would the world be better off without them?
Name a place where a gay person was tied up and left for dead and the authorities did nothing. Tell me Steve. Not only that then tell me the culprits did it because their holy book said to do it. You are so disingenuous its honestly hard to believe
“The Quran was sent for all people in all time”...... gets sent to the Middle East and only readable in Arabic. Makes total sense.
It can be translated…
how do people follow that religion and cause civil wars, terrorism, i dont get it. I'm from Iraq and it became a shithole.
“I was beat and exiled from my family”
“Sure”
lol she never said that
@@MTHSLH482 she did lol improve your listening
@@MTHSLH482 29:13 for maybe 30 seconds. She mentions being kicked out right away and then being beaten towards the end of that
a mormon suni. just when I thought I heard it all on this stream
same lmfaooooo
Heard she was married to a Jewish Buddhist
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
uganda, kenya, Zimbabwe, nigeria are all christians countries that outlawed homosexuality and some carry death sentences for it.....seems to me its more about poor countries with poor educational systems that have these types of draconian laws, rather than it being based on religion
>It's not about religion, it's about them not having money or education!
*laughs in Saudi Arabian*
An Uncomfortably Hairy Israeli In Culture Shock saudi arabia is the equivalent of the US with christianity and israel with Judaism
No, Saudi Arabia is extremely fundamentalist. Mecca literally *bans* non-Muslims from entering it. They have all the money and resources to be an inclusive, secular, liberal society but don't fucking choose to because they like their religion.
Yeah, nothing to do with those ~60 avg. IQs, nothing at all, sir.
AugustusPugin It doesnt.
Many fundamentalist religious people in general are against a homosexuality. Hell homosexual marriage wasn't recognized in the states for almost it's entire existence and had terrible connotation and it still thus now.
Must be that 60 IQ right?
Destruction got debated in this destiny
When you read the video title and instantly know who is gonna win the debate.
Three Arrows ...her? She’s in the counter terrorism unit. She sees what you don’t see.
@@DaneAraux what "counter terrorist unit" would that be? She said she's "doing counter terrorism" in her year off work... Yh I don't think she's an authority on anything, especially considering she couldn't answer basic questions and multiple people have called out straight up false claims by her which show she's not knowledgeable about anything she's talking about.
@Nuance Is Good I don't know how much voracity her claims have, but her claims seem to have little veracity.
@Yoda I’m pretty sure the guy was joking
@Yoda oh my, it's been a year and you still haven't realized that they were being sarcastic. How socially illiterate can you be?
Conflating Islam and Christianity especially when it comes down to homosexuality is fucking laughable. Destiny is out of his element on this one. This video is riddled with false equivelances.
I'm confused as to why she can't explain what a Hadith is and why interpretations might differ.
For those who don't know hadiths are essentially things Muhammad said. They contain a list of people that passed that saying down the line so "Muhammad said to john, said to jack said to mike that Homosexuality is wrong". Muslim scholars have systems through which they rate the trustworthiness of each of the people in the line, and as a result give different hadiths different levels of trustworthiness.
Scholars might disagree on what hadiths are valid and what ones are not, and as a result differ in there beliefs.
Also there are somewhat different beliefs concerning the Qur'an, as sometimes the essence of a given section is emphasized above and beyond what is literally being said. In addition, people often "work around" some of the laws.
For example, in Islam, interest on loans is illegal, as is, by proxy, a mortgage. Instead, Islamic banks do this.
"as the basic difference is that rather than us lending money to a client that they would then put towards a house, we would buy and own the house and charge the client a rent to live there.
"Only some of the money that the client pays in rent goes to the bank, the rest goes towards gradually buying the bank out of its share of the property"
I'm not saying the Qur'an isn't generally taken more seriously and literally than other holy books, but there certain is real world examples of Muslims understanding it metaphorically, or working around it.
Exactly. Which is why 27:18 is just nonsense.
The Bunnet Hypothesis Yes, those types of convos with muslims and non-muslims included talking about these sort of ways of going about things are what I think is needed to make a better development than the general discourse we have now.
Banks still have interest rates in Islam it just falls under a different code for example Libya under gaddafi they claim to not have interest but, they actually did!
As a muslim i myself dont understand my religion completely. My parents taught me to believe in one god and mohammad is prophet. If you follow five pillars of islam, you can pretty much live peacefully since they dont bother or harm others at any lengths. The reason muslims dont try to be friend-friend with other religion(not in all cases) is because of dietary laws, protectionism. If we dont follow one rule properly, it might devalue of other religious work such as if you drink alchohol once, next 40 days your 5 prayers are not accepted to Allah. Marriage with other religion is quite difficult because of same reason. Some sectors of muslim thinks crabs are halal other thinks haram. some thinks full face veil is needed others say covering your head is enough for muslim women. So it is not that muslims hate other religions its just we have to protect our normal way of life and there are varities.
It is true that my religion said that it should kill infidels, idolators but it depends on certain context.
Some part of quran talks about politics, some society, some spirituality, some warfare, sometimes stories. So beheadings and killings are important when a war breaks out.Even then there are other naratives like truce, peace deal, blah...blah..... Which one should we follow we dont know. So in general we just ignore those violent parts. Most of us do. One sentence in koran has no importance without the context. Sometimes BBC makes shows like" when it will be accepted to be muslim and gay". Never......because in order to be muslim you have to believe that you cant be gay. Those who follow it are muslims and those who dont are not.
She acknowledges that Christians can break the rules, but somehow all Muslims are magically obliged to follow all the rules of the Qur'an and the hadith? Feels like a double standard to me
@@ChodeMasterisnt the Bible literally the exact same thing.
Very interesting talk, but I feel like the caller is being a tad obtuse on the malleability of Islam. There are literally hundreds of different Islamic sects that are mutually incompatible with with each other, and which label each other as heresy. You cannot simultaneously hold the view that you HAVE to take the holy texts literally, but also acknowledge that different Islamic sects have different beliefs. Clearly Muslims have different interpretations.
One good example is the prohibition on alcohol in Islam. Maajid Nawaz bring up the point that the original translations read as banning drinks "made from grapes" but later scholars interpreted that passage to also mean all alcoholic beverages. Another good example would be violence against LGBT people. While you may never convince an Islamic fundamentalist that gays are anything but hellbound sinners, you may be able to convince them that it is not their place to meet out "justice," that only God can be their judge. While that is not an optimal viewpoint, it is still a better position than the status quo in many Muslim countries, and one that I think is feasible given enough time and effort.
Your position is very weak, considering those very sects are killing each other as we speak and their war has spilled into many other countries.
Wow this woman has so many misunderstandings of how The Quran is interpreted. And Destiny doesn't know that much either but he calls her out on it though...
I was thinking that, she's got her wires crossed. I love the Quran
Thats what i was thinking, i was like « but if the coran is made to be understood like she says, why i’m not like i should be if it was like she’s claiming to be ? Doesn’t make sense, if i take what she says for truth, i should be killing people in the street right now.
@@reyhugo4879 dude it's "Quran"
@@MTHSLH482 not in french tho
@@reyhugo4879 nah, its crayon
I don't see how naming Islam as a whole as a "threat" is productive, when fundamentalists are something like .2% of all Muslims. Obviously there is some element of the religion itself that inspires them, but generalizing it to all adherents of the religion is totally counterproductive and could ultimately be harmful to Muslims at large.
Also, it seems like she's generalizing to all Muslims based on her personal experiences.
.2% are you fucking out of your mind? The figure changes from country to country but generally the majority of Muslims agree with Islamic fundamentalism such as Sharia law.
It's weird how they always say "what is happening in Europe", while not being specific about what they mean. Feels like half the people who use that phrase don't actually know much about European countries, and the second half has visited one part of one country in Europe and think they can generalize something from that. I was in downtown LA when I was in the US 12 years ago. There were black people hanging at the corners in gangs and we were told to lock our car when we went to those areas. Why don't you focus on that lol, that's way worse than most areas you can find in European countries. Yes there are ghettos in London, yes there are a few bad neighborhoods in Sweden, yes there has been problems with certain groups of immigrants from northern Africa to many European countries. But when they say "What is happening in Europe" I always feel like they are ignoring better examples in their own country when it goes to ghettos, friction with immigrants and rich areas becoming ghettos. Just my thoughts on that phrase :)
Martin Slow i agree but you said a few bad areas in sweden, i wouldn’t say that no-go zones where the police won’t go is a bad area seems more like a warzone
Why don’t i use my real name Because i am retarded Yeah. That does sound bad. Luckily there's no such zones in Sweden. It was literally a list of 52 places, where police had 'ever felt threatened in duty'. Then a crazy old journalist made it a list of 'no-go zones'
probably because that's not what they're talking about you, you're just as bad as destiny who goes but MUH christianity every time there is some complaint against Islam.
James Banner No. No one has claimed that. But the alternatives aren't 'ignore everything' or 'Sweden is a desolated hellhole'. That's fucking retarded.
@yron33 The OP said let's focus on something else other than the matter at hand. That says everything to me. That's fucking retarded.
It's infuriating the way he responds to every atrocity she lists with "But Christians....". I don't think destiny is capable of understanding the horror she is describing. It's impossible to believe he can when he compares Christian treatment of homosexuals in America to Islamic treatment of homosexuals in the Muslim world. I was kicked out of my house at 16 years old by my Christian parents for kissing a boy. Not for a single second did I worry they would kill me or report me to some theocratic government for execution. Christians in America have a very simple principle they live by. They hate the sin but love the sinner. This principle does not exist in Islam and that difference is everything.
russell d I agree it kind of obfuscates and stops the conversation from focusing on Islam and goes into comparing religions when both of them are anti-theists. Kinda boring
russell d
All religions are the same. Bullshit. Go to a very Christian country in Africa and people are the same than the Middle East. What makes people good are Secular belivies and education.
screamityeah Such nonsensical blather. The idea that all religions are the same shows a total ignorance of how religions evolve through time and culture. Obviously there are cultural components to religion. But that doesn't make all religions the same. All religious beliefs manifest in the world in their own unique way. And the idea that secularism makes someone good is so bizarre. I don't know what your idea of good it is but it is a completely subjective concept. In general people that are empathetic, kind, understanding, patient, and have good critical thinking skills live productive and peaceful lives. There are many people with those qualities in all religions. You have to add a little depth to your thought if you want to have accurate reflections of reality in your head. "Religion is bad. Education is good," is far too simplistic.
russell d
Compare every country with Secular belives and/or secular governments vs the ones that are more religious. In a very general way the Secular ones are way better to live and be happy than the ones where religion has a big influence in the population
I am very right wing but russel d , I sense you are coming from a very nuanced position and appreciate the wisdom of your evaluation. it seems you have forgiven your parents for doing that when most people would be angry.
Islam is too complicated for some folks so those folks resort to bigotry to gather their understanding.
Seems like she wants to blame Islam for what she did, instead of taking personal responsibility.
Maybe if she just got married . . .
Islam is a n environmental factor though you can trace your actions back to...so...
So being raised in an Islamic background has nothing to do with a person's beliefs or actions?? Stop excusing bad ideas. People like you are part of the problem.
Thank you for mansplaining -.-
@@ArtoPekkanen shut up extreme feminist
Holy shit it's the interview that keeps on giving! This is great!
It's like I'm at the end of a concert, and the crowd is cheering encore! and the band keeps coming back out.
Holy Beautiful
So she works with counter-terrorism but doesn’t know that there are different exegesis of the Quran?
Tafseer al Qurtubi
Tafseer al baghawi
Tafseer al ibn katheer
Tafseer al jalaleyen
Tafseer al tabari
Thats just off the top of my head
Yeah she’s pretty sketchy
I’m sorry but I HATE it when you have non Muslims talk about Islam. Please invite someone that actually know what they’re doing
Destiny got bombed in this debate
Shut up Meg oh you
Shut up Meg .
Shut up Meg .
Shut up Meg !! 😡
Shut up Meg
I highly doubt of this woman’s honesty, there where some redflag’s in what she was talking about, one of them was how she put Islam in the center of the problem, with as a proof her past in pakistan, the problem is why didn’t she talked about asian muslim countries or North Africa muslim countries, thats the problem she think pakistan is the basic state of muslim countries, that is misleading ( and i’m not even talking about lebanon, iran etc )
I don't think she's ever stepped in pakistan lol
40 minutes in, and I think it's time for Destiny to use the fake anecdote nuclear option
Would you be interested in discussing my gender transition over vc?
Right-wing extremism is definitely more of a threat in the United States.
lol this is a stupid ass comment tutti foh
Victim Taylor, In what way is it stupid?
shurednichso, Wait where did I say that I agree with American foreign policy? I agree with everything you're saying. Except that your view of how the US Government works is a bit naive. They do what they want and don't care what the people want, so blaming random Americans in youtube comments for the situation in Syria doesn't make too much sense. For example I voted for Obama partially due to his promises to close Guantanamo and withdraw form Iraq, but he didn't do any of these things and simply continued the same destructive foreign policy as before. Many people, believe it or not, also voted for Trump because they thought he was less hawkish than Hillary. But he is still doing the same shit. They don't care what we want. Yelling at American people over this is like yelling at some peasant because Louis XV started a war with England. Real democracy.. at least at a federal level is completely dead.
shurednichso, But to get back to the muslim migration thing, the fact remains that the majority of even non-Islamist Muslims in the world are very very conservative by western standards. Listing to me all the bad things happening to some people in some random Muslim country isn't going to change that. Ranting about who is responsible also isn't going to change it. Mass immigration of muslims to some relatively liberal country the point where they reach a percentage non-trivial to politics WILL have negative consequences from a liberal perspective. You getting angry about it doesn't change this. And yes of course this all depends on the immigration policy. As the ex-muslim girl said in this video, if the immigration happens slowly enough, then muslims will integrate (as has happened in the US to an unprecedented degree). But if it happens too quickly they won't. She is also right, however, that people with Destiny's views on the subject will not support a smart immigration policy though. They'll just equate any slowing of immigration or consideration of people's ability to integrate as racism against brown people. That's why it's important to acknowledge reality when making laws for your nation. Not just surrounding this issue but any other. And also, just to clarify, as a LIBERAL, I disgree politically and socially with Christian fundamentalists in the US as well. The reason they are such a problem in the US is because they're a very large percentage of the population. Thus the Republicans pander to them for their votes. Given that most of the world is very conservative by western standards (*not ALL, but the majority), as a liberal you should be wary of an open door policy of mass immigration to your country. I wish this weren't the case, but unfortunately it is.
Are right-wing Christian extremists trying to acquire nuclear material to bomb American cities? Do they have the general belief that all Americans are infadels that must die? Seems like the potential threat from Islam is much greater, they just haven't had the resources to realize it yet.
سلام عليكم
muslim here from saudi arabia. i have no idea, who is the lady,destiny debating. but she doesnt understand quran or even know what shes talking about! if she thinks you have to kill gay people.this type of thinking what we called wahabizim.(isis precursors). it's popular in my country and we fought that ideology way back.but, sadly was backed up by our government. now things are different with the new ruler(prince mohammad bin salman )they are pushing wahabisim away and we fighting it all over again but this time government with us.
the young lady says shia worshiping Ali ? like wtf even she doesnt know shia have sects too, and they all dont worship Ali . they see him as prophet mohammad who doesnt do mistakes and chosen by god through his prophet mohmmad to be the next leader to muslims. sunna see it differently they take democratic approach by choosing the next leader . both are extremely deeply debatable among sunna and shia on this matter. since shia claim is not democratic and sunna says it's not ali the next leader .
and they are more false infos about how she thinks islam and (tafseer)!. she thinks everyone agree on quran and disagree on hadeeth in terms of interpretation. this clearly shows to any muslim she have no idea about tafseer and there are different way of reading quran depending on scholar. like shafei or hanbali or ....etc. all have different approach to it.
there are other many retarded stuff to mention,but really when u want to read quran, u read books that interpretes it clearly, from sunna and shia to know the general idea. Most muslim in saudi arabia dont know wtf in the quran actually and they cant argue about it because they know they are ignorant as fuck. of course, am talking about the majority common people. like you and me who are not going in depth to what are the teaching of quran and hadeeth is all about.
Quran condemned gay people not only Whabizim. I agree that Quran is diffcult to read without interpretation but anyone who speak Arabic can understand these verses: quran.com/29/28-38 , quran.com/7/80-82 , quran.com/26/160-170
You're right, however I feel it only fair to mention that (in an ideal muslim world) their ought to be 4 witness' to the homosexual act between two people who then need to be "interviewed" separately by a judge before any sentence can be passed on the alleged homosexuals and if any two statements differ even slightly I believe the case is dismissed; iirc a lesser punishment is passed onto the people accusing the former two.
Regardless, I'm 99% certain that it is extremely against Islamic law for any punishment to be carried out by the general public which is what is happening in some Muslim countries right now in the Middle East and some parts of Asia which is what op was referencing.
On a somewhat related note the Quran is a difficult read even for those Arabic speaking; to my shock and surprise it's actually an intelligently written book for what it is - at least in comparison to other biblical books (such as the Bible and Torah).
You live in Saudi Arabia. Why the fuck would you support Islam? You weren't legally allowed to drive until a month ago. I mean feel free to believe whatever you want, but your very nation is evidence of what goes wrong when Islam is a powerful force in the ethos and government of a society.
@TheJimmyplant with all due respect brother, you are ignorant about what is islam about. if you think my country represent islam , please tell me why we are fighting muslims like in yamen and qatar right now? or better why we are changing laws,(not women driving which is a right for man and women in islam), and be ok with a dictator ruler who's wasting our money by buying Da Vinchi painting that doesnt even represent our islam(450$million) ?. islam teaching has nothing to do with our secular/dictator ideological method our rulers use in saudia arabia. we are covered by Usa that why we still exist. if they decided to erase us they can. but islam will not because we dont represent it by any shape or form. we helped growing extremists from it. but that will happen even if u r athiest here. we have good muslims but most of them in the prisons or dead by torture. we have many bad things. and many protesters are getting killed by hundrends in the torture prisons every year. good people only can be silent, till we can find a way to change the system of ruling first.
@Ma Nal اقرأي مره ثانيه لم اذكر هالتناقض . لم اقل من يمثل الاسلام بالسجون انما من يعتبرون مسلمون هم هناك اي من الشعب السعودي. حكومة بن سلمان الان بصفنا في محاربة الوهابيه بعد ان كانوا بصفهم . بس هذا مايعني انه بصفنا لاهداف ثانيه. مثل خلق مناخ للتطبيع الاسرائيلي مثلا؟ او اي هدف ثاني مختلف.
she kept using personal antedcotes contradicting her points. "I have the best muslim friends in America who truly love America because of it's freedoms" vs. "NO MUSLIM CAN CELEBRATE THEIR FAITH DIFFERENTLY THAN ANOTHER MUSLIM, THERE IS NO INTERPRETING THE QUARAN DIFFERENTLY". like girl your whole argument is an argument about what you believe?
She’s really doesn’t understand what she is talking about. For someone who was Muslim for some of her life she should at least know how to pronounce Arabic words correctly.
This smells like pentagon propaganda trying to trick Destiny & his stream?!
Like she call Muslim differences as cults and a lot of degradatory stereotypes....
Yeah, its a death cult not a cult 😂
You will have a hard convincing anyone that inbreeding and taharrush are good. I hope this isn't just deflecting to Christianity and saying that because it reformed we should gamble on Islam doing so
David Cedarwood You can't really reform Islam. Either you convert Muslims, make them all Quaranists or change the perspectives of Muslim people of Islam themselves.
You do understand that taharrush is the arabic word for harassment? As far as inbreeding is concerned most of the Muslims I've ever known,having worked in the ME for a number of years, were not married to their cousins so its not even as common as most people think.
Christianity reformed in a more conservative direction though. It didn't lead to a more liberal church, it lead to people having their own views on what Christianity is and how it should be represented. Basically what Islam has become
My favorite part is when she said she was Mormon but then thinks that the Westboro Baptist Church is mormon
The Hadith is a collections of texts and stories that were written to dictate how Islamic people should live their lives and laws that are not talked about nor explained in the Quaran. For example. Praying 5 times a day is not mentioned in the Quaran at all....but it is talked about and explained in the Hadith as what a good Islamic persion should do.
This was a great debate/discussion. Please have more people with this level of insight on...
She just sounds smart but doesn't know much about Islam tbh
@@Truth4Lyfshe does tho
@mukbangboss1783 She speaks about Islam from her prespective. Not what the actual text teachs. Muslims do not interpret the Quran to mean what they want it to mean. And you won't see Muslims arguing about the actual text. The disagreements tend to come from Hadiths, which unlike the Quran isn't the verbatim word of God!
@mukbangboss1783 Her arguments come from her emotions. And not from what Islam actually teaches.
Islam does not support terrorism.
Islam does not allow forced marriages
Islam does not allow oppression
Islam does not support liars.
And she's not wrong about there being Muslims that are extreme. But it's a very small minority and not a majority. She's just been focusing on the loud minority that she didn't like, instead of what the religion actually teaches!
It feels like she's a liar!!
i'm just gonna make a meme while i'm watching this video look at me go
ur memeing too close to the sun my dood
How'd it go?
is he gonna be okay? we haven't heard back from him in a while
Lol she has no idea about Islam at all. Don’t listen to this lady. She’s deliberately lying about Islam and Muslims. As soon as she said Ahmadis believe in the peaceful passages..that’s when you know she has no idea
ahmadis believe in softer interpretation
It is really weird to me how relaxed destiny is when talking to be who openly advocates for a society of would kill gays and other. Or brushes off the idea of mosques having another system of law layered on top of normal law. He just a woman explain to him that many Muslim women in the west don't even know they have right. Good luck with that social pressure, that is unless they ship you off to Pakistan to be married off or killed.
I think Destiny is trying to do a good job of being an open person and not overplaying his hand on issues he is not well educated on. I think this attitude is generally good but can also stop Destiny and other from really sticking up for their own believes.
Holy shit you can tell when Destiny brings on compulsive liars on stream and it gets as stressful as it gets entertaining
why compulsive liars? how can you tell?
@@bokajon it's easy when you've had experience with them; they can't help but lie throughout conversations just to feel relevant
It's hard for them *not* to lie, you can tell because they derail conversations when they feel like they can get a story in that's relevant to the current topic
@@Keysame to be honest I don't know if you're talking about the lady that spoke first or the muslims that spoke after her
I hope they get into the fact that having antihomosexual rules, even if they are unenforceable, create a shitty situation for us in that culture
So homosexuality is okay in Islam as long as you don't practice it, yeah, totally compatible with Western values.
Also, too bad that one guy didn't go into the absurd detail of how the Qur'an has scientific evidence of certain things before they were actually discovered. The amount of interpretation of words and confirmation bias to match scientific concepts and find coincidences is laughable, especially in how effective it is in converting people.
This is the problem with human perspective of everything. we always put anything in a box.
when human itself can't categorized in any box.
Wait, did she just say dio bandi? Arent they hardcore wahhabists?
The answer is yes.
Thumbs upped for 1 hour 45 in where Destiny avows to "Shit on Muslims more."
As a truly egalitarian minded person, I have taken the same pledge.
Why you don't talk with a Muslim guy about Islam ?
God damn the no pause after the "I watched a girl get burned to death" that was a bit chilling
Religion of peace, spread by the sword, brought to you by a warlord.
Keldrath
Pieces*
I would appreciate if you spoke to Muslims about this, that’d be cool.
18:04
Destiny *destroyed* Protestantism in this debate
Edit: I’m not very far into the video so maybe Destiny brings it up, but with the law of abrogation thing, isn’t that what all Christians do to justify not keeping Kosher? They say that Jesus fulfilled the old law so they don’t have to follow the dietary laws in the Old Testament, so the old is thrown out in favour for the new.
Anyways what are your fetishes
Destinies false equivalence is so annoying
Hahahaha I love these comments "Sh-she's lying!!! She doesn't know anything about Islam!!"
She's not lying (I don't *think*? she is my friend) but she is quite innocent & notably followed a more culty (i mean, for religion) sect of Islam.
Yeah I mean she said her job is to identify the extreme and dangerous sects of Islam so that would make sense. Just based on this I would imagine she would be an expert on the matter, moreso than Destiny and his viewers.
TDragonus I mean yes she did lie on certain parts for sure. The entire thing on Muslims that grew up here was for sure out of her ass. Most of the Muslims that go to Mosque are absolutely not that religious. I mean sure they are """"""religious""""""" but more like the the whole "Christmas Christian". I used to be a Muslim that was raised and born here
I have never seen such a comment war in a Destiny's video.
Debate mohammed hijab .. try it
dude, that would be poggers
@@aaaronobaid3571 Lol. Hijab would stomp out. He whines about CosmicSkeptic being rude and all. Have you seen Destiny? The ad Hominems will start at minute 3.
@@iamdanyboy1 I saw him against Daniel...Destiny got fucked
this woman is lying, she even struggles to make herself believe in that what she just said. the akward silence after her big claims made me really suspicious and then she follows up with a yes to her own statement? really dude.
that's exactly what I was thinking. she said something like "I was radicalized in Pakistan." it's a weird way to talk about it
thought maybe some people take time to organize their thought before they say something ?
you think muslims women are not hold by force and violence especially in Pakistan and more?
dude... welcome to the internet. read some stuff
shes mormon
I feel like her statements regarding her accent are a lie. It's very hard to adapt to a specific accent unless you're a young kid. So unless she has been training her accent and willingly changing it, there's no way you she could've gotten to that level of accuracy. But I don't know, maybe I'm wrong...
MagnificentXXBastard Triggered much? Even though she grew up in an English-speaking country, changing your accent in the way she did is still a pretty uncommon. So unless she willfully tried to change it, there is small chance she could've done it unconsciously. Not even well trained actors that travel between the US and UK can change their accent naturally like that. She might be the exception, but it's still something to have in mind.
im from iran and i feel like its the first time that someone did justice in explaining our situation with muslims here in middle east.
Islam is not a big deal in the west, but damn that dude from germany is so disingenuous and dishonest.
It is a big deal in the West.
Her arabic pronounciation is also terrible
40:00 yeah ,she is not lying just taken 101 classes and making mistaken ideas.
In Quran there is clear verses ,here is no different interpretations in all schools ,it is on a number of subject .The rest are unclear or not detailed verses ,with the help of hadiths n other modules many schools have different interpretations though not too different.
Radical Islam is a threat.
From a recent BBC R4 program, it sounds like the result of the milgrom experiment weren't as conclusive as the author would have had people believe.
Further research necessary I guess but I think I'd definitely be wary of citing it these days.
The distinction between secularism and laicity is evident in tensions between Quebec and the rest of Canada. Laïcité in Quebec means NO religion in the public sphere, so they can ban religious symbols (like, a sikh's turban) being worn by anybody who works for the government. This is supported by a majority of Quebeckers but is hugely contentious and the rest of Canada sees it as a violation of the fundamental right to practice your religion. My secularism doesn't depend the lady at the DMV not wearing a cross. I always saw this in terms of the difference between the Anglo and Franco conceptions of freedom and the relationship of the individual to the state.
That third expert you had on was a straight up liar
How?
What the actual fuck?
Dude at 1:50 : “So these [really fucked up] laws to chop of hands and execute people are just there to deter everybody from doing the wrong thing. Also there’s some exceptions, you know, if they were literally dying or mentally handicapped. Makes sense?»
Destiny: «Yeah!»
1. Deterrence is the purpose of ALL criminal laws
2. That doesn’t justify it at all
3. All these qualifiers are fucking ridiculous. The laws still exist and are awful. Stop excusing fucking atrocities.
Listening to this guy is giving me a headache. Now he’s arguing about the creation of the universe like “time” somehow is the master variable that everything adheres by. There’s no reason to think there is a start (nor an end) to everything, apart from life as we relate to it. This dude hasn’t thought this through at all. “The universe has to be designed by someone because mathematically speaking the values couldn’t even be a tiny bit off for us to exist”. What? It’s all chance and probabilities, my dude. For every place that’s habitable there’s unimaginable amounts of places that aren’t. Religion is really such a simplistic and primitive way to view our existence. The only reasonable position is to admit that we simply don’t know and can’t know.
So something one of the guys said is that Saudi Arabia is really problematic. I am pretty sure that most Muslims will agree with this statement "Saudis act like hot shit". When I was a Muslim there were so many of these Saudis that would come into the Mosque, that was mostly people from Pakistan, and treat us like absolute shit.
Christians Calling someone a slur for wearing something is a lot different than Muslims forcing you to wear something. Islam is not the same as Christianity.
Almost 4 hour video, "twitter user", yeah that's gonna be a no from me dog.
Gareth Cole Pratt lmao so you discredit her experience because she doesn't have a degree? makes sense
Gato Loco there's no excuse for ignorance. I know there are plenty of idiots he debates but I don't make such small minded assumptions based on authority/credentials
lightningfrom 93
Where did OP question her credentials? He could have any number of reasons for not wanting to watch a rando debate for 4 hours.
You have to understand that there are added dynamics when destiny debates a skeptic with a lot of fans vs a random person on twitter. Some people like to see debates with large backings for the memes. Take the johntron debate for example, its one of destiny's most popular debate vids. People really liked it not because johntron was an intellectual powerhouse, but because he said some stupid shit and it had career implications for him. It spawned a lot of quality memes. It was entertaining in a different way.
Just because this guy doesn't want to watch this persons video, doesn't mean he's discrediting her experience. He's not making any assumptions about her credentials... he just might not think this would be as entertaining as some person with a large backing.
Based on previous interactions/debates with twitter users on Destiny's channel you can't really blame him for coming to this conclusion - most of them happen to be actual idiots spewing some idealistic shit that fits their deranged narrative.
2 seconds in and I can already tell that destiny got FUCKING DESTROYED in this debate
Destiny got fatwa'd in this debate.
Also, one note about the last callers views on Lawrence Krauss' "Universe from Nothing." He is misunderstanding the point of the book. The point is not "oh where we thought there was nothing, turns out there is something." The REAL point of the book is "There may be no such thing as nothing." The caller is making the classic argument from ignorance when he invokes the watchmaker analogy. Just because you cannot give an exact scientific accounting over every detail on the origins of the universe does not justify the insertion of a God; otherwise yours is a God of the gaps that is ever receding in the face of science.
Is this the same lady he had to push anecdotes on? Sure sounds like her
They have more than 30 Arabic Qurans
I know this is old but WOW is this woman’s view on religion so warped. The fact that she thinks religion should be taken literally and without any nuance or flexibility is because of her own way of thinking; that has nothing to do with the religion itself. It doesn’t help that she generally just believes things about Islam that are simply not true. Her family and friends had a poor understanding of Islam and now she does too.
The fact that the Quran states that it’s not your right to take the life of another human being outside of self defense; that alone would rule out almost everything she is claiming about Islam.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is the „father of the turks“
He led the turks into enlightenment and introduced a secular approach, executed islamic extremists and is especially celebrated in the region of izmir/turkey.
His signature is everywhere where kemalists are.
It is a symbol of secularism and freedom for turks.
A lot of people where it as a tattoo
I think she made up most or all of this story
I've understood the 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's' differently. Give Caesar what he asks for because his face is on the money and is his, but give yourself to God because you are made in the image of God. Caesar (as Son of God) and his things are not things of worship/love, but God, Jesus, and people are.
Maybe my understanding could still be connected and used for the point of following local laws? Or maybe I am misremembering the context of your specific quote.
Is there a continuation to this? someone tell me, please.
Religion is a problem, just be good people instead of just listening to words of a book. Islam is definately the worst in doing the most horrible things and that's a fact if you wanna see it majority wise rather than just in a specific area.
Spoiler Alert: The debates only a hour long
My anecdotes justify my islamphobia: the debate.
Destiny big fan of yours. Love how u get fans from across the world on for different perspectives. Try and get an educated african dude on one time for a change - you have a willing one right here☝🏽
Reach out to him on twitter or the subreddit! I dont think he really looks at these comments much.
whats the hate so much with islam i dont understand, if the muslim are doing wrong its there own self wrong doing not the religion, to spread lies or even truth and religion with hating and saying bad words to other people its the lowest kind of morality too dark for your heart and mind. please brothers sister just ignore the ignorant and pray for them. may Allah forgive us all
bright light ameeen
I'm not 100% clear on what you are saying, but it sounds like you think people shouldn't criticize religion?
Many religions say that you should kill unbelievers, and i think it's entirely fair to point out that something lile that is pretty messed up.
Very interesting stream.
I think the problem with the second caller using Turkey and Albania as examples is that those two countries are extremely atypical Muslim countries really. They're secular for sure, and living there is not really that different from living in a Western European or Eastern European country, but when you look at the reasons Turkey and Albania are so secular it becomes kind of muddy to use it as an example.
Turkey used to be quite religious when it was the Ottoman Empire, not Saudi level religious, but still quite religious. However when the Ottoman Empire lost World War 1, the religious establishment was completely discredited and the Sultan signed the humuliating Treaty of Sevres which pretty much made Turkey give up it's own sovereignity. Mustafa Kemal kicked out the foreign invaders the Sultan and religious establishment had sided with, kicked out the Sultan and made the Ottoman Empire into the Republic of Turkey.
However the secularism in Turkey wasn't some kind of natural progression like it was in other countries, it had to be forced. Religious or traditionalist opposition had to be put down and modernisation had to be forced undemocratically on the population. The reason Mustafa Kemal was not overthrown was because he had cemented himself as defender of Turkish independence and because most of the population at the time was illiterate, allowing him to make sweeping changes without much opposition.
Turkey would continue to forcefully impose the secular values onto the population, which is why following the 1950's Turkey became rife with military coups. Whenever the military (which acted pretty much as the defenders of the Kemalist status quo) felt the Secular, Democratic nature of Turkey was threatened they took power by force.
Same goes for Albania who have a pretty secular country due to their history. Albania used to be Christian before the Ottomans took over, and one of their national heroes, Skandeberg is romanticized for his revolt and guerilla campaign against the Ottoman yoke. As such Albanian culture has been kind of apathetic to fundamentalism, on top of that they became Communist after World War 2 which further discredited a religious society on the population, as the Soviets forced State Atheism on Albania.
Tl;dr: Turkey and Albania are kind of imperfect examples, because the reason they are secular is due to secular values being forcefully (and sometimes violently) forced on the population. It wasn't a natural process and the normal people did not go along with this without opposition.
marvelfannumber1 One could say the same of the Christian nations of Europe. Change, even good change, is always unpopular.
Red Firefly you're one of those "the ends justify the means" kinda guys aren't ya?
+Red Firefly
You're missing my point here. My point isn't that Muslim nations can't become secular democracies because Islam is just inherently worse than any other religion. My point is that Turkey and Albania are not good examples of stable, secular, democratic Muslim countries because they are abnormalities in the region and there's a historical precedent that's allowed them to more fluidly transition into a modern society.
Since you want to pivot to Christianity, I'll say that the same applies to Europe. Countries that generally have a larger connection to their pre-Christian past, or have a strong sense of nationalism that supercedes religion generally make for more fluid transitions into democracy.
Greece, Germany and Estonia are examples of this. Greece were forced to become a Kingdom when they became independent, but the Greeks were never really fully on board with an autocratic King, as such the monarch was pressured into democratic reforms and ultimately when he tried to hold onto some of his power, he was thrown out of the country.
Estonia to be fair became independent just 100 years ago, but they also have a tradition of secularism and democracy thanks to their connection to their pre-Christian past.
Germany aswell, now you might say, how does Germany count when they had the Nazis. Well frankly the Nazis were largely the exception, not the rule. The fact that Germany was able to peacefully transition from the Kaiserreich to a democracy after World War 1 with minimal bloodshed speaks volumes of this.
This also applies for most countries that were under the Eastern Bloc or Soviet Union, both Christian and Muslim.
Is this a reupload? I feel like I've heard her talk before on this exact same thing.
Edit: It’s an oldie, might of seen it on stream last year, think that’s where I might of watched it too
EsotericOccultist So aggressive :(
no your not an idiot, the stream was like 2 months ago but he just uploaded it now
"only Muslims in the US, not Canada" going to have too disagree there as someone from Canada with a large number of Muslim friends and acquaintances
I couldn't believe it when she said that. Imagine thinking, in 2018, that gay Muslims are treated better in the US than in Canada.
musliman DANKMEMES
lol yeah they speak English in Scotland for the most part :P also I hope you had more streams with this lady the conversation was great!
19:10 I know this is to years old but, holy shit she looked right here about Maajid Nawaz. He was making a documentary with Sam Harris during this time as a reformer of Islam. Holy shit, I can't take anything else she says seriously. How can you push for Islamic reform and say one of the foremost people advocating for Islamic reform says he not a reformer. That's so disingenuous.
Destiny stop saying Western values. Say Progressive or Secular values.
MagnificantXXBastard - No, "Western" is typically used as shorthand for European style liberal/secular culture. But the most significant political/economic/military actor of that kind these days is arguably the US, which is not a Western country. West refers to the cultures of Western Europe, not the Americas.
MagnificantXXBastard - The term describes a set of cultural traditions. And like it or not, the Americas have their own established cultural traditions. It is true that there is a large colonial European presence here, but those are newer traditions which are not as well established here. It would be true to say that there is a large Western influence in the US, but not that the US is itself part of Western Europe.
Not sure what you're talking about... When the rest of the world refers to the West they are speaking about America, Europe, and Canada.. America is part of the "West" so it would be absurd to say it has a Western influence when it IS in fact the West.
The rest is "whatever"? No, it is the Americas. The US and Canada are not separate. I know what the wiki says, but I refute it. I live here, and it is only Euro immigrants who believe that they are in the "West", because they are so slow to assimilate. Calling the US and Canada "Western" is laughable colonialism.
Uhh we all know the term is based on and derived from colonialism.. That isn't really the point.. Your refutation is moot since these are already established terms that are widely used. The US/Canada is every bit as "Western" as Western Europe is. Lastly it is not only Euro immigrants who believe such things, references to "Western" people and places are heavily established in Asia, Middle Eastern, and African nations.
Big win for the marketplace of ideas.
Oh she is from Libya, they were a cool country until we destroyed them but for her I guess she would be a sell out
"I know things I cant tell you, but trust me".....
All of her arguments were from personal experience yeesh
33:00 before this I have disagreement but tolerable differences ,
I seen tons of dawah or missionary works by muslim
Never I seen deception was used just to convert , I don't know,it is just a anecdotal incident or what? I starting to doubt her claim.
yea listening to these euros trying to form sentences is killing me
Does my dude Destiny expect to learn anything from these people, their knowledge was laughable at best? Talk with people who know their stuff, both pro-islam and anti-islamic people kinda like Robert Spencer (not the alt-right guy). People who actually know the Quran and the Hadhits and who can relay what they know like intellectuals.
Destiny, I'm interested in watching a debate about functional Psychopaths.
Are they a neccessary "evil", or would the world be better off without them?
is this the mrs anecdote
Are we really looking at different religions or just an alternate variation?
Name a place where a gay person was tied up and left for dead and the authorities did nothing. Tell me Steve. Not only that then tell me the culprits did it because their holy book said to do it. You are so disingenuous its honestly hard to believe
This woman is more reasonable than most people Destiny talks to. That's kind of refreshing.
atheist debate atheist about rellgion so cool :DDD