Pogačar’s Sneaky Sprint Tactics 👀 + Dangerous Lead Outs... - Wild Ones Pro Show TdF Stage 13
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ส.ค. 2024
- Check out the audio versions of the podcast here: podfollow.com/the-wild-ones/view
Soz for the long one, here’s some timestamps:
00:00 Pogačar came 9th in the sprint?!
04:51 Why was Adam Yates in the break?
08:26 A nasty crash and ‘dangerous’ lead-outs?
12:54 Was Cavendish’s relegation fair?
19:42 Is the ‘dangerous riding’ rule ruining sprints?
25:29 The end of the road for Roglič
26:48 Was Mystic Bella trying to warn us?
27:30 UAE’s Juan Ayuso out with covid
28:25 Will Jonas or Pog attack tomorrow?
34:02 Women’s Giro: Liane Lippert wins the sprint
If you’d like us to send in a question, story, some good news, things you’d like us to discuss or anything else, email us at wildonespodcast@cademedia.co.uk
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Pogacar contending a field sprint? Warming up for the Pyrenees? I’m sorry I love his style. If he loses people will undoubtedly question his decision making or whatever but I think he’s great for the sport.
He lost last year already because of shit like this
Exactly no need to put himself through that. Nothing to gain@Shadowboost
@@dn6008nothing and everything, history will remember him, Jonas will be good but will be remember like froome that is about it
@@toshman696969 nope. Jonas is already legend. Best GC rider of all time
@@toshman696969I agree. Jonas is so boring that I even forget him during the race
Magnus Cort said to danish tv, that he talked with Yates, also asking him if he could drop to let the break live. According to Cort he apologized, but said he had to stay, team orders.
So whether it was on purpose or not, when it had happened, the manager clearly wanted it to stay that way. Which I understand honestly. It made Team Visma work hard today after all~
Man you guys are absolutely nailing these podcasts. Keep up the great work
Last time Wout van Aert won a TdF stage was in 2022 when he won three stages after getting second place 3 times in a row in the opening stages. He won 2 bunch sprints and an ITT. In 21 He won his legendary 3 stages in a bunch sprint, a mountain stage and an ITT.
ITT win was a gift from vingegaard tbf
Emily shows us the standard July attire for the UK...fleece and thermals in July, loving it...
Northern summer.
I think lead out guys should not be allowed to suddenly stop pedaling mid sprint. It is far more dangerous then Cav changing line.
They stop pedaling because they dont have anything left...
@@stefanocavallin6221 Then they should be required to drop out 3 seconds esrlier
@@gerrysecure5874 or the sprinters should stop positioning themselves behind leadout riders if they don't want to be potentially interrupted by leadout riders.
They put themselves in the draft of the riders ahead to conserve energy but it's a gamble.
So if you don't think leadout riders should be at the end, then the rule should be no drafting within 200 meters of the finish.
@@stefanocavallin6221 They're elite professional athletes, I'm pretty sure they can figure out how to do a lead out that doesn't end with them literally stopping in the middle of a bunch sprint
@@mattdavis855 they literally stopped? i must of missed that bit lol
Feel like if we're going to do daily TDF videos, we should have the dog present at this point. Just saying.
Producer Bella
@@brandonstewart8665 she surely is worthy of AP credit at least after the barking incident, agree.
The lead-out man has always been super dangerous to the spiriting pack because they are the non-barrier side "blocker" for the main sprinter; in the Columbia-HTC 2009 TdF doc I think they take you through how one spirit works: 10km out HINCAPIE drives the pace up, then Tony Martin, etc .. RENSHAW leads out and "swings into the middle" (so its Renshaw - Cav - Barriers; when Cav hits the fresh air) therefore to pass Cav you had wait until Renshaw clears or go a mile around.
I think its standing out now because the last decade the tour hasn't had the big sprit lead-out trains like when Cav was at his peak.
Love it when you have Chris Hall on. Great dynamic 👌🏼
I am loving all the podcasts.. keep it up. And well done Bella 😉
To be fair to Philipsen, I saw some of the sprints he won prior to last years TdF and they looked quite fair/clean. There is some thing you have to consider. When you become a favourite in sprints due to your previous results, much more other sprinters are searching for your back wheel and this bunching up makes the space around the favourites tighter and the situation more dangerous.
Sprinting has changed so much on its own from decades past--we don't see the long sprint trains that we used to, and we also don't see the same discipline in the leadout riders that we used to. The leadout train wasn't just fast, it was SAFE. When riders peeled off, they generally did it in a predictable, organized fashion. They didn't just sit up and torpedo a bunch of other riders. The pull-offs by the Arkea riders are the worst I've ever seen, wildly dangerous. I'd say that Cav shouldn't have been relegated for no other reason than he hadn't really been able to START his sprint yet and thus never actually deviated from his sprinting line.
But they have to make rules for sitting up at 55km/hr and drifting back into a bunch of sprinters with no warning. It's nuts.
Cav didn't have a right to cut across someone else's line, the relegation was the correct call
thanks for timeline 🔥 KUDOS
My favourite cycling show after the Nero show. U guys need to do this for the entire racing season for the next year
Such a great show. Great to hear an 'mostly😐' unbiased review of each stage. Keep up the great work 👍also the arguments for the mountains in my head is JV may attack Pogi and although he JV has missed training may be stronger, Pogi has the Giro in his legs, so has he recovered fully
I think there should be a green lane or some color where riders who peel off can sit up and slow down but if they are not in that lane (ideally on one side) they should not be allowed to slow down - keep pushing until they reach the 'safe zone' of sitting up
only the train next to the lane would have access to it
On the topic of people who like to go disgustingly fast on descents, all i have to say is: Adrenaline is a hell of a drug
of all the types of stages in the tour, the sprint stages are the most tedious, and the essential purpose of the sprint teams is to close down the stage and inhibit breakaways and small group battles. Great. Thankfully we've only got one left (and less of Jasper). Stage 15 will be the big one for Visma. They'll let Pog have his day on 14, then go for the kill on 15.
Crashes happen because some riders are not aware of whats going on around them, a friend of mine and fellow club member (cat 2 racer) was racing at the recent Otley crit and was forced into the barrier by a cat 4 rider, result, 3 broken ribs, smashed up shoulder, 2 fractured vertebra and slightly punctured lung. When you are racing close you need to be aware of whats going on around you. CAV Is a master of that.
Why is cat 2 and 4 racing in the same class in a crit? That sucks for your friend though.. crit racing is just too dangerous to be worth it IMO, it’s fun but way too many crashes.
@@hobmarg We don't get many entries in the uk so usually fields are 2/3/4 or E/1/2/3.
The name of the celebration Roglic does: telemark. Thats what the motion called in skijumping, when they landing it correctly.
Leadout trainers will typically sit up to block other sprinters deliberately. Cav's move was safe as he moved into an open space and did not appear to block Coquard
what drugs are you on. he totally cut across his line
I would like to see a new, safer barrier design in the last KM or so. Get rid of these generic crowd control barriers that "take down" riders if they come 8n contact with them.
Cav didn't have a right to cut across someone else's line, the relegation was the correct call. He's a menace in the sprints, he's probably caused more crashes than any other rider. The peloton literally held up the start of a stage before in protest to his behaviour.
Leadout riders can't just disappear, and they can't maintain the speed of the sprint anymore so they are always going to drift back. If you are tucking in behind the leadout of another team you have to accept that they might end up blocking you.
If each sprinter has a lane that they can’t deviate from and that lane is say 1 meter wide what do you do when two riders lanes overlap due to the barriers like with Wout and Coquard? If you look at it like that it’s hard for me to see how Coquard did anything wrong because he’s in front and Wout never had a clear 1m lane to pass him in and Wout essentially moves in Coquards lane, even if he goes straight, in order to pass, if that makes sense.
Yates apologized to Cort for being in the breakout saying he was under team orders. Shortly after Cort tried to lose Yates.
Exactly. It’s a tactic to get Yates to move up the standings so he’s a threat to attack Visma on the mountain stages.
Here in SA for Tour Downunder, some of the towns remove traffic islands a couple of weeks before, the reinstall after. Less things to hit.
I disagree. Gimay who won the stage was in front of the slower rider and CAV was behind him so why didn’t he just follow Gimay.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the sprint 'starts' when the first person starts sprinting? If at that moment you're still stuck behind your leadout or someone else, you basically have to 'deviate from your line' to get to the finish in time because there's someone completely blocking your way?
If that was the case, when the sprint starts, only the riders in the first row would even be eligible to contest the sprint.
Cav could have stayed on Bini's wheel, remained safe, and still swung out for open air and contest the sprint. He was not at all forced to swing out like that to avoid DeMare imo. He made a poor choice that resulted in relegation because the move was dangerous.
agree 100%
make that 200%
Cav swerved wildly and endangered another rider. Period.
I'm really loving Emily's nails right now, I can't get over it..❤❤❤
you guys got a bounty on pogacar? nothing better to do?
I'd argue there is a little colour in the rulebook. I'm a Commissaire - albeit at a lower level! but I've studied the rules a lot. In most cases there is a caveat to the rule "at the Comissaires discretion" In bigger races there will be a panel of Comms who meet immediately after the race and give their opinion on incidents and then it's up to the Chief Comm to make a ruling.
On crashing/safety… crazy how in motogp guys are flying off of motorcycles at 150mph and nobody is dying. They often hop right up and jog away. Yet in cycling, where the avg speed is 30mph, guys are dying in crashes every year.
I don't think the final sprint is hurting him much next day. Its much worse that he attacks furiously in long climbs burning matches he needs for the climb while Jonas catching up in a controlled effort and winning the stage.
In this stage's road, where is the lead out supposed to go? They're choosing a narrow road for a sprint finish and that seems like an easy fix.
Today is a great stage for Felix Gall 🤩
If the breakaway stuck and Yates was with it in the end, there was a possibility that he would have moved up into the top 5. That would’ve put 3 UAE riders in the top 5. Visma definitely didn’t want to have to deal with that. Imagine them having to follow the moves of 3 different riders from the UAE team the way Tadej had to follow Jonas and Primoz two years ago.
Coming second is WvA middle name
Lead out riders have always dropped through the charging mass of riders, have always tried to block the competition, have always tried to create chaos to assist their sprinter. This year there are so many teams with sprinters and leadouts trying to control and dropping back that it is really visible how dangerous this is, and has always been.
Need to see more of chris's t shirt
Both Chris Horner and Johan Bruyneel said APlus tactics from UAE...
Have they talked about the fantasy teams, I remember Emily saying they were going to talk about it on day 2 but I don’t remember hearing them talk about it
Julian Dean went head to head with Renshaw, when he was on Garmin or Garmin/Sharp. He’s at Green Edge/Jayco/Aluyla/Orica/ Caravans and forklifts or whatever they called these days.
I think a lot of the issues we are seeing with crashes on descents as well as the sprint finishes are the speeds that people are able to ride today. Bikes are both faster aerodynamically as well as the improved tires and brakes allow significantly faster descents than would have been prudent in the past. The issue is the same as in car crashes once you exceed a certain speed the physical forces on a body during a crash become more dangerous and potentially fatal. The sprint issues can probably be resolved with better finish areas allowing the roads to be wider at the finish instead of more narrow also using sharper corners to slow everything down has clearly not accomplished its goals. The issue with descending is not likely to be solved at all unfortunately and will only result in more dangerous crashes as the speeds continue to increase.
I enjoy cycling videos that treat riding a bike as a sport. But I learn a lot of things that I’ll never use on a bike. That’s okay since I can sound like I know something about the sport when talking to athletic cyclists. I’m just an eight mile a day rider to a coffee shop or the post office, for instance. For me, that’s the perfect cycling experience! I don’t want riding a bike to feel like work. Quite the opposite. Still it’s great knowing what advanced cycling training looks like.
I think because they are sprinting faster now than they used to the leadout riders haven't got that much time to get out of the way.
And with Pogacar and UAE riders in the mix there it was even less space, plus more sprinters than it has been in a while and only one sprint stage left on tuesday before the rest is to tough for most of them.
Lots of desperate sprinters and teams that hasn´t got a win yet.
That Roglic is out is a bit sad but that will probably mean that Red Bull is going for stage wins cause Hindley is about 20 minutes down on 17 spot.
Ayuso will probably be missed by the team cause that means Almeida and Yates have to work more in the mountains.
They have been strong so far but you always want a extra rider there.
I heard here in Norway that Tobias Holland Johannessen and one of the other riders will try to go in a breakaway.
He was 3 on the Tourmalet stage last year only beaten by Pogacar and Vingegaard.
I would think it could be Odd Christian Eiking, he is a solid climber and was 11 overall in the Vuelta in 2021.
Emily takes the stage for wardrobe/makeup, Chris's face shirts were great yesterday, Jimmy classic and subtle as always.
Van der Poel was relegated last year for barging Biniam Girmay while he was leading out Philipsen
You forgot about MvdP doing a Renshaw last year and headbutting Bini Girmay out of the way when he was leading out Jasper Philipsen (who won the stage). MvdP got relegated, but Philipsen kept the victory. In order to remove the incentive to block other riders, the punishment should be extended to the rider that is being led out.
Jimmy, I'm there are things that you do that people do not agree with. Riding down a decent is left up to the rider. I guess we should just ban anything that is unsafe.
"Pogacar is a lunatic" may have just become my favourite quote from this year's TdF 😂 Thank you for this pearl, Jimmy.
Bring back yesterdays intro!
I need a WVA stage win
2017 TdF, Sagan was the one who got DQ'd when Cavendish tried to go up the inside on a gap that wasn't there, I sense the commissaire have their favourites.
I think the deviation rule should only apply if you are blocking/pinning another rider during a sprint and not if you are trying to get yourself into a position so you can contest the sprint. But then I’m into fishing anyway and don’t really understand cycling races. 😊
Do you think this is a side effect of going from 9 to 8 riders? As sprints cannot be controlled by a team.
The only reason I climb hills is for the descent 🙌🏻
How long untill the tdf is contested on static bikes, for safety reasons. Or maybe a max speed, even for the sprints.
Yup. Let's do it all virtually 🤦🏻 crazy ppl think limiting a race speed makes any sense to the whole point of a race
TdZwift. 🤦
Don't forget guys Pogi is in Yellow! He doesn't need to attack! Jonas does!
Emily killing that lip gloss.....Im here for it
Pidcock for the Olympic MTB
Yeah hes got the Olympic gold for sure in mtb
"To be honest", I don't see any sneakiness in Pogačar.
Was both lead riders who slowed down (in cavs sprint and the crash today) both from arkea aswell? Is that arkeas tactic?
They should make a rule that lead out trains should end at 300m, therefore maximizing the animosity of sprinters only left and nobody to hamper them.
You simply cannot enforce that.
@@oliverhunt9362having exit lanes on each side of the road like for the cars during TT?
Why?
@@oliverhunt9362 1km then so it’s enforceable. 🤣🤣
I mean just think of it like a shake and bake/slingshot type of move, Everybody who are in a good position would get off the wheel of their leadouts with ample strength and fight it out in the open, to really see who has better legs. Having somebody deliver you to a 100m should just really give the stage win to the leadout guy at that point. 🤷♂️🤣
@@Afrikakorps68 cause just like road furniture, Leadouts at the end of their turn are just huge obstacles, yes it might sanitize the sprints way more but, Sprints should really be a duel between sprinters.
Here's the thing with Yates. If he gets in top 10 today then they have to chase him down anytime he attacks in future stages. It was preemptive.
Pog will take few seconds if he can which is good for audience but given Jonas form, jonas will dropped him in the big climbs as he normally do.
Roglic is snakebit, I'm convinced, which is sad because he's one of my favorites.
Van der Poel was rightly relegated last year for his lead out on the car circuit.
There should definitely be a rule about what to do at the end of a lead-out to minimize danger. If at least they stopped pedaling in a predictable way it would help. Or contest the Tour on Zwift so they can ride trough each other.
he moved over and held his line, it doesn't get more predictable than that.
I think I know why Tadej was up so far. I’m sure he’s thinking about the road furniture that almost took him out a few stages ago. With so many roundabouts and a sharp left in the last few miles of this stage, there’s probably no way that he wanted to be anywhere near the middle of the pack. His bike handling is good enough that I’m sure he’s not worried about a little jostling from the sprinters.
Descents: limit the highest gear inches on the road races, not TT. This won’t affect the excitement of racing, but will make the cyclists spin out on downhills, limiting max speeds.
In fact, limit the gearing for all the bikes. Go back to the 90’s, before the 30+ cassette. This will fatigue the riders and slow them down, they will rest on the downhills.
Also disc brakes allow for faster deceleration into curves, which can cause wheel lockout, or give a false sense of control, thus increased speeds into the apex. Note: helmets give a sense of safety at speed. In the 90’s they were optional and a few had helpers hand the out at the crest of a hill.
Please tell me what “GC” means?
GC = General Classification. It's for the overall race lead. The leader wears yellow.
@@Nomgoose thanks
pls talk about the carbon monoxide "doping"
the equivalent to this stage was stage 6 in 2023. Jonas lost 30 seconds to Pogacar and he won't have Kuss to nurse him along.
I think those barriers are dangerous tbh. They should not have those legs that stick out into the course in the last 500metres
Problem is what design barrier would not fall in towards road without them.
Pogacar was quite visibly looking behind several times in the last 10km because he was aware of the possibility of the peloton splitting since it was a fast ending in a decimated peloton worn from many days of hard racing and many splits earlier in the stage. He was absolutely looking for the possibility that the peloton would split up in the end as well. He just didn't know there was a crash making the final split-up. He was hoping that it was a "natural" gap, and he just made sure he was getting the same time as the winner. Sure he spent a small amount of energy doing that. It doesn't matter the least tomorrow.
It wasn't small. Every single one of these efforts is really really bad
@@Shadowboost Are you sure? 😆
The sprint problem is mirrored across many racing sports.
For the sports history, racing rules have been unwritten and based on morals, and how you treat your friends/ rivals.
Now, the stakes have got so high, morals cannot dictate your decisions, only winning, because it’s not only you that it affects.
That means rules need to be implemented, and racing has never been something that’s black and white, easily ruled. There’s opinion, and ethics, and nuance that cannot be regulated!
jasper didnt go in a straight line, he cut in front of someone after passing them to the right side barrier, maybe to close that side down even though it gave wout a better chance to beat him.
They should maybe make a rule that the lead out man should peel off before the 1km , then the sprinters are on there own 🤷♂️
adam yates was in the break because they wanted visma to work, and they succeeded in doing that. If they didn't chase down yates, he could've taken 2-3 minutes, which puts him back on contention for GC for a three-pronged move by UAE. Visma didn't like those odds so they chased.
sprinters dodge lead-out men all the time, Mark could've easily went just a little bit to his left but knew that he would be boxed in again by other sprinters, so he deviated and chopped off Coquard's line to stop that, it was a result of his bad positioning that and he needed to accept that instead of endangering other riders.
Jimmi seems to think he's above other people and always has an air of arrogance, he must be absolutely right in all his takes while not once trying to understand other points-of-views other than his. never seen him once concede another person's arguments and always needs to have the last say
Yates is 6th overall. Jorgenson is 10th! It's not just about Jonas! If something happens to Jonas they want Jorgenson to have a chance of podium! So UAE put Yatesey in the Break as a double barrelled problem for Visma! 1. Time on Jonas 2. More time on Jorgenson!
Couch potatoes here questioning UAE tactics, meanwhile Brunyeel and the Armstrong bunch full of praise...... oh.... whom to trust....?
Yates in breakaway is the same as Kuss was in the Vuelta breakaway. Remco didn't care at that time. See how it turned out? Kuss won the Vuelta. So never let a guy who was 3rd last year went on the breakaway. No matter what.
Any lead out rider or sprinter that stops peddling before the line during a sprint should be disqualified.
lead out riders in every stage do this, it is nothing new. pull up any overhead of a sprint on youtube and you will see it. lotto rider tied to force himself into a gap that was too small imo.
@@darrelduke I don't care if it is nothing new.
1. They should continue to race to the line for the UCI points.
2. Sitting up in a sprint is incredibly dangerous. The next time you are in a group ride or a pace line, try sitting up and slowing down without calling our your intention and see how fast your mates kick you off the ride.
Proper knucklehead move from pog head, nothing gained and taking more glycogen out of his tank all adds up over a week.
Cavendish was behind Biniam, if he had stayed behind him he would have ended up in the same position without swerving into Coquard
Deceding is dangerous as sprinting is part of the sport but the lead out riders should be a bit more careful
Why did they not want Yates? I don’t understand that part. 50 year old new rider
maxim van gils was penalized for shouldering the arkea rider and it's not the first time he's been penalized
lotto rider totally at fault today for dangerous riding.
Why have lead outs? Just have the sprinters go at it. It's dangerous for so many players just before the line.
Pogi is an amazing rider, but he lacks Jonas‘ smarts. My money is on Jonas.
About Cavendish reacting to rider in front. We must not forget that they are racing. Those decisions are made in the moment. You don’t have time to go over all the rules and everything. He looked and saw space and went for it. Other rider had space and also reacted. If any the lead rider that postured up and stoped pedaling should be penalized. His move was dangerous. Its like the same as break-checking in any auto-moto sport.
there wasn't space though, he literally cut across someone else line hence why he got relegated lol
Get rid of lead outs. Let them show their own skills & strength.
And barricades cause so much danger during bunch sprints. Maybe they can be made out of foam for the last few hundred meters...better yet...jell-o.
Getting rid of descents is getting rid of one of the few skill elements of road cycling - and is just wrong. Otherwise, you may as well just do it on Zwift. Cycling isn't just about watts, FTP, w/kg......
Climbing is about fitness, descending is about skill.......
Riders can always get better at it by practising........
Decents definitely have to be made safer. If they are not neutralized, they have to implement something like a max speed, say 50kph that a rider can only exceed for like X seconds. Similar to a virtual safety car in formula 1 where drivers cannot exceed a certain speed or time I believe. That will keep the time gaps and once at the bottom of a climb, go full out again. Just a thought. Difficult to make it right for everybody but a life is worth more than a jersey or stage win in my opinion.
Yeah, or maybe lower bike minimum weight and stop increasing the tube ratios that allow for improved aerodynamics. I suppose gear ratio caps like for Juniors could work, though that gives a competitive advantage to riders with higher cadence.
Defending is a strategy a s involves a skill set. If a rider cant descend fast safy they shouldn't. It's ruining the sport to suggest keeping time gaps is fair when decents have made or broken TDF wins...and stage wins.
The road should be safe...but riders need to take responsibility just as they do throughout the whole race.
There's going to be inherent risks with cycling. It part of the sport.
Descents should be fresh tarmac nd cleaned. That's it. Find it too unsafe..slow down
A speed limit essentially neutralises the whole section though?
The whole TdF would essentially just turn into who can go uphill the fastest at that point since nobody really attacks on flat stages so they can all have the same finish time and time trials are pretty much only contested by the GC guys and TT specialists.
Essentially neutralising descents by implementing a speed limit only works to make the race more boring and predictable overall
Hmm. Tadej got an advantage of 35 seconds during the downhill on stage 4? Last year he lost 5 minutes going uphill. I have yet to see a multi-stage race won by beating opponents in downhill sections. I love the logic
Is it me or is there something not quite right with the sprint distant rule. Plus the readout rider should not be dropping off in the middle of a sprint and face relegation
The British bias on full display for Cav 🤣
Cav 👎
Came here to say the same - Demare and Phillipsen move like half a meter and they definitely should have been relegated, but Cav swings out half a kilometer and he was fine.
Cav was sat behind Girmay, there was no accident about to happen, he did it to keep in the game
Visma pulled because Wout wanted the win... that is not rocket science.. UAE just cannot catch a break with some of you...
Hey, to all you Pog detractors out there, grab your pint of ale and a side of English pudding to wash down your bitterness. UAE's tactics today were simply flawless-like, duh, how could you miss that? Adam Yates is practically guaranteed a podium spot if the break succeeds, and if they just let the break go, he'll magically conjure up 5 or 8 minutes, just like Sepp in the Vuelta last year. Oh, but of course, you're probably too busy watching reruns of Jonas outsrpinting Pog to finish. Pog is obviously going to out do everyone in the sprint up Col du Tourmalet and gets bonus on the last HC climb, adding another 'teen seconds to his already lead. It's all so predictable, isn't it?
It's all fake drama 😮