before the final stages i wanted to thank you for the daily show! it's been great to follow the tour this way, definitely made me more interested in the race!
if your theory of "better nutrition/training/technology" is true (for breaking the old long standing Doped up Record by Pantani), then we shouldve seen the record slowly breaking or coming closer to, over the last 30 years. Not being broken by 3-4 riders in one stage, on the same day, in the last fatigue filled week of a big tour, and also going faster than Doped up Lance by 7 mins!!! there is definitely doping/PEDS going on, and the authorities are not acting on it.
Exactly… it’s always a caveat of better training/nutrition/aero tyres 😂 Smashed super-juiced Pantani by miles and not just Poggy. They’re all on it, just like most sports. Time will find them out just like it did Lance and the boys. We’d all love to believe it’s legit but history doesn’t lie.
It’s impossible not to sceptical; I get that. But the ‘clean hypothesis’ for want of a better phrase is that a step change in nutrition research enabling twice as many carbs to be absorbed per hour has occurred. This claimed step change has 2 prongs: (1) better nutrition products mixing fructose and glucose in an optimal way; (2) Recently teams have started training rider’s digestion. If that’s true, it wouldn’t lead to Pantani’s record being slowly approached over the years, it might well lead to this data. I think we all agree that getting to the bottom of a climb fully carbed up versus depleted from the day and the tour makes a massive difference to the power you can put out up that climb.
they might be doping their metabolisms, there were some studies done with test result on gut and minimizing lactate(its a bi-product of our metabolism when we exercise, and causes muscle fatigue)
It’s really hard to say. Pog might just have superior genetics and abilities. There are always going to be those individuals who have abnormal physical capabilities compared to others. Lance wasn’t really that special compared to someone like LeMond. LeMond had a MASSIVE VO2 max compared to other people. What I find interesting is that today’s GC riders look like how GC riders are supposed to look; no more of the Armstrongs and Riises with bodies that should be too large to lug around the mountains. I really hope they aren’t using something new and undetectable. 🤞🏻
The white jersey should be for rookies and not be based on age. Maybe first time in a Grand Tour and not just first time in the Tour de France. Most first-timers are going to be pretty young, but if you're 35 and never been good enough for a team to take you to a Grand Tour before and you beat a 22-year-old, you friggin' deserve a special prize, I think.
It's not a participation trophy. It's to have a second GC track for athletes still learning to pace themselves and manage their overall health. If you don't like this idea then just ignore it. And the only riders that are "rookies" at the Tour at that age no doubt have other GT experience, so what's the point of your idea? Maybe a more colorful jersey for Lanterne Rouge?
I don't know if I agree with the Hawaiian jersey to Campenaerts before today's stage. He tried a lot of breakways, and don't forget he made 5th in the TT with great performance, only losing to the 4 big guys. He stayed in the hot seat all day at that stage.
6:05 "Now the average amateur is almost ... just as fast as a top pro was 10 years ago" Bro, whatever you're smoking (or otherwise taking to achieve that performance ;)), I want it.
@@DaveWills23 Right. I've heard that many times: junior races and amateurs are the worst, due to the lack of controls (not only in cycling). Though one wonders how they would suddenly stop it once they turn pro (hint: they probably don't).
The human body hasn't changed in 30 years and that is the limiting factor. Aero makes you go faster but doesn't change power output possible in a human body.
Exactly! Wind resistance increases with speed. The faster you go the harder it is to go faster. Gains with technology should be small, not huge leaps. Guilty by your success.
@@simoncummins2305 Johan Bruyneel said Campenaerts is headed to Visma next year. Looks bad for Lotto shitting on the guy who was your bright spot for the Tour. Hopefully the big team can pay him and treat him well. Sounds like he deserves it.
One of the things I’m going to miss most about this podcast/show finishing up in a few days is Producer Emily’s “day” overdub in the fluff up of the X portion of the show. Laughed every time.
Really like how people like Ed follow the logical and scientific approach before they jump to speculation about doping. That's what other experts also say, like their amateur kids are doing better numbers than pros 30.
There was a really great study that an ironman triathlete did 10 years or so ago. At the world championships he sent a letter to every person that beat him asking about training, equipment, and doping. 100% anonymous. He. Was asking to see how he could improve. This was sent to age group racers (not pros). The % that we're using PEDS was greater than 30%. I know in USA in highschool sports PED use is high. There are zero PED controls in age group ironman and HS sports.
They said the same thing in the Armstrong era, that it was great improvements in training. The incentive to cheat is so high, and the drugs can be manufactured to not be detected in the testing, it is nieve to believe that there is not doping going on. Alot of French people believe that cycling is a dirty sport due to the long history of doping scandles in the sport.
@@jeni719 They did say that. And the reason they said that is that it might have been true. It makes no sense to defend yourself using an argument that could never be true. I’m sceptical too frankly, but if there really has been a recent step change doubling the amount of carbs per hour riders can take in, it would have a massive effect on power numbers. Even as an occasional rider who has got reasonably fit doing long rides a couple of times during my life, I’ve experienced the difference between being fully carbed up at the bottom of a climb and depleted of glycogen - it is absolutely enormous. Of course it’s entirely possible both things are true. Sheer unevidenced speculation here, but what if a drug/mix of digestive enzymes has been discovered that has led to this step change increase in the efficiency of digestion of sugar?
Egan Bernal has said couple times in his podcast that he's moving bigger and better numbers than when he won the TdF 2019, and that it's no longer enough. He has also said that cycling has changed specially since covid, and everything is now optimized and controlled to the max (tech, sport science, nutrition, training, recovery, etc), they even have a planning of expected watts per stage. While you can't never say never, I'm not surprised about pro-cycling performance, and I just enjoy watching them race.
What a load of crap. 10% improvement at the professional level with millions of Euro's on the line... What crap they weren't testing everything for the last 4 decades. Sorry, no, you do not find magic beans for 10% improvement in power ratings without VO2max massive manipulation.
@@willbick3Exactly. Lots of riders can do it for 5 or more minutes. Anyway it's not 7 watts per kilo or anywhere close. Power meters overestimate by around 10% Ed says what does it matter if they all give more or less the same reading? The answer is that it makes everyone overestimate the metabolic output and underestimate the biomechanical efficiency. So we get endless doping accusations from people who don't understand basic biology.😬
An question in addition to the over-/underrated talk today about the climbing jersey. maybe give points not to the first rider over a certain line, but for the fastest time up an hill. and who in the end has the fasted accumulated time over all mountains wins the climbing jersey over all? may this take our beloved jersey out of the hands of the gc guys, because they will not attack any climb?
The actual thing that comes to mind is: How badly have they all been doped back then that it took the current pros with all their fancy material so long to beat the times. What is very often overlooked in the discussion of training methods and recovery is social media. Back when we had no smartphones and social media we had to go out and have fun. Just regenerating your body in bed was quite boring. Rick Zabel was joking about every pro being adicted to instagram. So maybe they are just getting better recovery because they do what most of us do: Sit or lay in bed and watch TH-cam podcasts and shorts ;)
Another excellent show! I was curious to hear what producer Emily will say about Victor Campenaert’s stage win. He definitely deserves it, and I'm thrilled for him. His emotional interview after winning stage 18 of the Tour was very moving. Jimmi made a valid point about Philipsen. It would be historic if Philipsen wins a stage without MVDP (Mathieu van der Poel). MVDP should focus on his own career instead of becoming Philipsen's lead-out man. I think the prize money for the green jersey being only 1/20th compared to the yellow jersey is ridiculous. Sprinting is a risky business, and all that risk for one person to win 25k is not worth it. So, I would say the value of winning the green jersey is overrated in terms of the prize money received, unlike the polka dot or white jerseys. Also, in my opinion, average cycling fans want to see action and winners. If there wasn’t sprinting in Tour de France, it would have been very boring in my opinion. If there was a cycling tour where the winner is determined by the number of stage wins instead of by time, and all stages were mountain stages, that could be really fun to watch.
From what I could find, the Plateau de Beille was last ridden in 2015. There were surely very light carbon bikes ridden in 2015. That was nine years after Pantani's record and still, no one beat his time. This year, three riders were faster and the record was improved by an eye-widening three minutes and forty seconds. That is a LOT to think about.
Of course you're right! These guys are so dumb. If anything, bikes were lighter then. And assuming that these guys are all being tested thoroughly? Like Lance " I'm the most tested athlete in history in history" Armstrong? I could see giving people the benefit of the doubt when you don't have any affirmative evidence of cheating, but skepticism is required.
If you believe you have the facts in hand necessary to make a "doped" vs "didn't dope" call on any rider in the grand tour, you're naive. You're basing your opinion on gut feel, which the DATA shows is unreliable and getting moreso all the time. If your gut feel was reliable you'd be rich via bets in the market by now. Are you?
@@jono1457-qd9ft That would mean that Pog can utilise more of the oxygen inhaled in one breath. I'm sceptical of his continual high performance throughout the season, when you would expect fatigue to start to become a factor, but maybe he has a personal system which allows quicker, fuller recovery.
@@philwyeth He sleeps better because he is very non neurotic. Also you can build your powers of recovery by building your training load gradually. As for the breathing, he has a high oxygen uptake, and good basic speed. This combination makes him very energy efficient. Most of his critics don't understand this. They believe he is burning a lot more calories than he actually is.
It makes no sense to compare it to Pantani and that era. We only need to compare it to the last 5 years. Or only from last year to this year. A rider that was capable to ride 7 W/kg for 14 Minutes is now able to ride the same watts for 40 Minutes and looked like, he can do it even longer. And because of the fact, that its only one year, ist not about training, material and so on. But it would be interessting, what happens if Tadej would ride a bike and all the material of the "old" era of Pantani and lets see, what happens. In all other sports the world records only increased by nealry nothing percentigewise...so lets see, what Tadej will do. Normaly he should be a lot slower then Pantani, cause doping is a different level then supplements. Btw, if Froome would ride now with all new stuff like Bikes from 2024, trainings methods and so on...he would be much faster then all those guys.
GCN often does those types of comparisons between gear from different eras and times for certain routes. I am sure they probably have something like this is their archives.
Cyclingnews did a mathematical analysis of aero, rolling resistance, and drivetrain efficiency improvements. They were generous and calculated the modern rider has a 40 watt advantage. Accounting for that, Pogacar still beats doped Pantani by 43 seconds, Armstrong and Contador are minutes slower. Better way to look at is is a rider that could to 7w/kg for 15 minutes can now do 40 minutes, deep into the season and in the third week of a grand tour. As a bonus, he's fully recovered the next day.
regarding the times on climbs: it's not just the tech that's improved, but probably also road condition, tarmac quality, where people are allowed to watch on the climbs, weather etc. There's just so many factors at play when comparing times over decades.
@@jfischer it's a combination of a lot of things. I think the main contributor is knowledge around nutrition and training. Fueling every single ride optimally has a huge impact on how fatigued you get and the quality of training. In addition to testing the impact of training in ways the teams are innovating yearly
Just a small correction for a small fluff up. The road(s) to Teide only go up to around 2300m. The cable car takes your near the top, which is around 3700m.
I would like to see a tour that is heavy with stages that are intermediate type stages were it has a bunch of 3rd and 2nd category climbs with a long down hill and flat to finish the stage. I think if you have a lot of those stages and less high mountain stages then it might open up the GC to riders like MVDP, Julian Alaphelipe, Wout van aert, or historically riders like Peter Sagan. I think a tour heavy with stages like that would make the racing more difficult but more entertaining. I think that type of route would make the racing for the Yellow, green and polka dot jerseys more competitive and fun to watch. It would also make the riders that contend much more talented riders overall. I don't see them ever going with that type of route but I really do think it would be fun.
In regards to commenting on the power numbers while climbing, don’t post it in your title if you’re just going to be cowards and not discuss the real question.
THE EQUIPMENT DOES NOT IMPACT THE W/KG - THEY WOULD JUST GO SLOWER - THE 7 W/KG IS A PHYSIOLOGICAL OUTPUT NOT DEPENDANT ON THE BIKE UNDER THEM - IT ISNT SPEED - ITS POWER OUTPUT. caps hopefully make this clear
The w/kg is estimated based on time. Not off power numbers. So unless it's claimed the times are adjusted for equipment (and if so how), the w/kg numbers are not really comparable.
I believe that 7w/kg is the issue here, not that they are faster and beating the old records. It is expected, that with advances in technology, they will be beating old records, but Pogacar is beating what was thought to be humanly possible. From what I understand, the concern is that Pogacar is outputting more watts than Mr. Armstrong in his most doped days. Whether this is true or not I don't know, but each time someone raises the ladder of what was thought previously possible, there have been deniers or hatters trying to find some wrong doing and I think this is true in each category of life not just cycling or sports in general. So for me, I hope they are clean and just extremely good.
Training and nutrition is better than it has ever been, UAE has a huge budget and have likely invested a huge amount into making sure Pog is dialed in rather than just relying on drugs like Armstrong, Pog gets tested at the end of every stage while he is wearing the yellow jersey, I have no doubts.
@@Lou-Lou. Pogacar at start if the season switched personal trainer as well. Something about not being happy getting 'the same as normal' training regime when be broke his wrist, and the trainer couldn't give him a regime which worked around that wrist as much as possible. New trainer is also much better with nutrition, and Pogacar last times when he cracked on long hot days was never paying attention to cooling. UAE learned, the marginal gains Visma had been racking up for some years in this regard seem to be spreading around the peleton.
It is true, Armstrong is on record (it was also measured at the university of TExas) saying that on EPO he had an FTP of 500 Watts at 72-73 kilos, that's about 6.9 W/Kg and that's rested. Not in the 2nd week of the Tour. Cunego won the Giro doing 6.7 Watts/kg doped to the gills. Guess who was his team manager... The same BS excuses I was hearing in 2004 about Armstrong and his custom made Treks, his hours in the wind tunnel, the special tyres that they were using that had them in a cellar for a year before they put them on a bike (don't ask me why). It's no that they are beating old records. They are demolishing old records, done by the most doped cyclists in history, supposedly clean. I say BS.
I'm going to assume that Pantani was on 9 speed gearing and no tooth larger than a 21-23 in the back.... Gearing alone makes a huge difference and having access to your power while racing. Yellow Jersey group just sits in the peloton for 90% of the stage and has to perform for the last 10%. Racing is totally different as well.. It's like they're on a fast group ride until the last 8k of the race.
Yeah, see also Team Sky in 2012-18 were basically amateurs who didn't train properly or know how to get the right nutrition which is why their times are being obliterated by the professionalism we now see.
@@michaelb1716 yep yep noob team sky dragging down the entire pro peloton and stopping records to be made, their team bus was basically a rental van, Porte had to sleep in a RV trailer bc sky sucked so bad
why does everyone keep bringing up "equipment" when these watts per kilo numbers are raised? watts per kilo is completely independent of your equipment! the fact that bikes are more aero nowadays shouldn't make cyclists have more power in their legs. it just means they go faster for the same amount of power. Bringing up how bike technology has changed in the past 30 years is completely beside the point! the only explanations are either 1: improvements to diet and training regimes. 2: that today's cyclists just have naturally better genetics than yesteryears or 3: doping. that is the issue being discussed.
The w/kg numbers quoted have NOT come straight from Tadej's power meter or coaching team. They are estimated. In order to estimate the w/kg on that climb you have to consider every factor, rider weight (estimated), bike weight, bidon weight, rolling resistance, aerodynamics, weather conditions, EVERYTHING. So tech is actually critical in coming up with these numbers. If we knew the real w/kg, then we wouldn't need all the other info, but we don't know the real numbers. Once all the gear is factored in and we have some speculative w/kg number, we can tentatively compare with the past. But it's nothing more than just speculative. Hence the argument about modern equipment and modern training methods etc, because the only REAL comparison we have between Tadej and past riders is their speed up the climb.
Given the every bike has a transponder, it should be possible to time every rider up each climb, so the polka dot competition is decided by the fastest ascent, regardless of where the rider is in the peloton, rather than the first rider over the top
This would just make it way more complicated, plus riders wouldn’t know during a stage whether they should continue fighting for points etc. Why make the sport overly complicated for riders and especially viewers?
@@Knofris Why would it be complicated? Its just a timed run for every rider from point a (the declared bottom/foot of the mountain) and point b (the peak). Whoever climbs it the fastest gets the most points.
@@Knofris whether riders choose to contest a climb is up to them or their DSs through the radio - they'll already know what time they have to beat through the radio, just as in a TT. As for making it complicated, it's well within the capability of software. I mean, for a TT, they're able to calculate and display the riders' times and rankings in real time. If Strava can quickly rank often-thousands of riders over thousands of defined segments, surely the World Tour can capture the data over a few segments/stage for a couple of hundred riders? In any case, there won't be 150 riders contesting any climb - the riders who are competing will be a select few - the other 90% won't count. Right now, the KOM is largely decided "first to the top", not "fastest to the top". I'd be interested in seeing the average speed of the "big dogs" over all the categorized climbs this year - I never saw Carapaz overtake Pog on a climb, while Pog blew past Carapaz at least twice, IIRC - yet - Carapaz is in the polka dot jersey.
It would break my heart if POGs numbers are PED “inflated” . He’s part of the reason for my renewed interest in bike racing just as Armstrong was to me way back when.
I was a massive Lance fan and totally defended him. Just can't believe these performance numbers. Human bodies take thousands of years to evolve. Can't tell me bike tech allows a clean athlete to best performance of juiced riders from 20yrs ago. PED! But still enjoying POGs riding. It's like enjoying WWE with full knowledge it's scripted
@@deadliaski its not just bike tech. Its bike tech, nutrition both before races and during races, management of fitness and rest through the season, expert training. All of these things are magnified with the internet that blew up since the internet and access to information continues to be more prevalent.
I think Ed's wrong on the race radios tbh. The world's road race is always quite different without radios than every other race. The DS's get to see everything differently and without being exhausted so the tactics are all spoon fed to the riders. You can even see it on the breakaways, they know exactly the time gaps all the time and how much to let them go up the road and when to start to reign them in to catch them with as little effort as possible and at the right time. Every single video of inside a team car you'll see them talking on the radio to the riders. Even in a tt they'll tell them which corners are in the skis and which are on the base bars or when they need to look up ffs
The Worlds is an entirely different race on the racing calendar, we can’t compare that one. Also, don’t believe everything you see in the coverage, believe me, the riders are making most of the calls ok the road because they are the ones actually in the race. Even with radios we go back to the car to actually chat face to face with the car incase anything is lost or confused in translation. As someone that’s raced in large UCI races with radios they have only really been used to communicate major updates/changes or things to remind us of coming up. Honestly, most of the time, the riders know what’s happening. 😊
I think for the polka dot journey to truly be something for someone to go for and be proud of and something like the green jersey, you need to eliminate anyone who is trying to go for GC. So either eliminate everyone in the top three (at least; maybe top ten or twelve or twenty) from consideration, since podium spots and UCI points should be enough of a prize, or do not award polka dot points for the final climb (especially stages that end with a climb) or that include bonus seconds. Also, the green jersey needs to be just a sprint jersey and not get any points from climbs. I also think to make the Tour more exciting, more intermediate sprints points shoujdl be awarded, and they should not go to any breakaway riders. If you really want to show off your sprinting prowess, you should contest those intermediate sprints as well and not simply conserve your energy for the final sprint.
Another benefit of shorter cranks is that they affect your gearing, so assuming they work for your position and you can put out the power you will travel faster…
He wins the giro and dances up the final mountain stages of the tdf at about 110 cadence out of the saddle with zero strain on his face. Its beyond ridiculous. Team sky led the way getting world tour cycling modernised using state of the art methods and everyone caught up.. pogs level is too far ahead of ELITE athletes.
Emily, I keep tuning in with that voice of yours. Years ago when they told us about the blackbird spy plane it is because they something much more advanced. Years ago during the froome days I heard a program on mpr about new tech on this. This program blew my mind on much it has advanced. The only ones that will be able to use will the ones with very deep pockets. This was from the uk. If you Have not heard of it, is because they a very good job keeping it from the public. I wish I have saved the program date so you find it and listen to it so you hear for yourself how far we are have gone in this area. I do believe we are seeing the results of this. Epo is old tech.
If you changed the polka dot jersey rules to only be mid-stage climbs, you could design some sprint stages with a mid stage ramp the climbers will compete for and make the overall stage much more all-round interesting.
Equipment and sports science has improved significantly in the last 30 years. But we must remember that the elite riders of the 90s and 2000s were doping to astonishing levels with PFCs, EPO, anabolics, testosterone, cortisone, transfusions etc. They resulted in scientifically proven performance benefits of 10%+ from clean riders. This is widely accepted and not disputed. Armstrong said he held a threshold of 500W for 30 minutes at 73kg on the col de la Madone in training in his winning years. His times are being obliterated, he would have been 3.9 kilometres behind Pogacar at the finish line the other day, it's hard to believe that's possible clean but let's just say for arguments sake that it was... If we accept Pogacar is completely clean, then we would have to acknowledge that he would be able to hold 8W/kg or more for around 45 minutes if he used performance enhancing methods such as transfusions and epo, based on applying known and established improvement percentages. That is surely not humanely possible? I'm wary of dismissing concerns about the levels we're witnessing simply because bikes weren't as aero a few years ago. I struggle to accept that the likes of Team Sky five years ago were running an amateur outfit with outdated equipment, training and nutrition which explains why they were so slow in comparison to now. Maybe it's brake discs making them go faster! Having said all this, I really don't care if doping is taking place. Pogacar and this generation are amazing to watch!!
Even if doped riders in 2000 really were gaining 10% (not saying they weren’t, but good evidence about actual performance gains is NOT easy to come by), that doesn’t mean that current athletes, with significantly better training, would make the same gains. It’s entirely possible that pharmaceutical aid was making up for worse training. Can we get funding to clone Pogacar and dope it to the gills?
main benefit of ending with a sprint is that it rewards the sprinters that can survive the big mountains. If there is nothing left after stage 16 or whatever, then you'll get more that just sort of stop trying and drop out. PLus how well you survive and can then have a match to burn is a big part.
To those wondering about the elevation thingy: Higher elevation means thinner atmosphere means less oxygen molecules. So if you are not used to being in that altitude, your lungs and heart have to work more than what it's used to. This is the same reason why mountain climbers stay at a certain altitude to get used to the thinner atmosphere before going higher. A good example would be Mount Everest. I hope this helps. 😊
great show, but really hard to look-up you guys there's no intro or info about the guys (and gals) speaking here. Would be great if you could add details in the description or adding details in the main YT channel page ?
That 7w/kg number was normalized, so that all the equipment gains and changes were accounted for when compared to past data. People need to read the research behind that number, the level of data and number crunching that was done was incredible and on par with what you would find in any published academic research paper (honestly better than many I've read). This isn't just, equipment has gotten better or nutrition is better, they factored all that data when comparing him to Marco.
So they had every single date, including exact bike weight, rider weight, etc.? If so, where do I find these statistics? Or let me guess, they don’t have the data and are just estimating?
You can compare equipment from different eras. I think it was Cyclingnews that did the math and with some generous calculations came up with a 40 watt advantage in the modern setup. They looked at tire rolling resistance as well as aero improvements in bike, wheels, clothing, and rider position. The conclusion is that modern equipment might account for almost 3 minutes, but Pogacar still beats chemically assisted Pantani by 40 seconds without it. Fully doped Armstrong and Contador are even farther back.
Fluff up of the day should have been Matteo Vercher from Total Energies who crashed in the neutralized section before the race started. Although, he kind of made up for it by coming in second on the stage
The best wattage comparison is to what was happening 5 years ago or maybe 10 years ago and not Pantani.. Then we could see whether or not nutrition, training etc are likely on their own are responsible for the latest power figures.
Theres all the modern gains... nutrition, training, equipment etc., but some things in cycling remain a mystery. Yesterday I did the same watts as my PB from 4 years ago on our local climb 5.6km at 10% and was over 10% slower about 2mins. Probably the weather conditions like wind and humidity.
The one thing I would ask is how accurate, precise, repeatable are these power numbers? I’m admittedly asking from a position of cycling ignorance but as someone who has designed scientific research the quality of the data you’re using to formulate your conclusions is paramount.
Exactly - I mean, the hard proof of "really good performance" is in the record-breaking climb time. But trying to estimate power from that when drafting and wind are part of the equation is tough - plus average speed up the entire climb assumes Pantanti and Pog/JV/Remco paced it the same, which is almost certainly NOT true. A reddit user "belhill1985" did a really great analysis on Stage 16 last year (can't do links in comments here, but google the username and "Power Estimation for the Stage 16 ITT" to find it), where many had claimed JV did 7.6+W/kg on the 13min 21sec climb; his excellent analysis gave something closer to 7.0W/kg, interestingly very very similar to what Ed says he himself has done.
Exactly - I mean, the hard proof of "really good performance" is in the record-breaking climb time. But trying to estimate power from that when drafting and wind are part of the equation is tough - plus average speed up the entire climb assumes Pantanti and Pog/JV/Remco paced it the same, which is almost certainly NOT true. Someone did a really great analysis of Stage 16 last year (should be able to search for Power Estimation for the Stage 16 ITT by belhill1985), where many had claimed JV did 7.6-8.0W/kg on the 13min 21sec climb; his excellent analysis gave something closer to 7.0W/kg, interestingly very very similar to what Ed says he himself has done.
Yes! Please have Geraint Thomas riding a steel 1995 Pinarello Banesto with a Campagnolo 8 speed group set and steel wheels with 23 mm tubular tires up the Stelvio pass, dressed in a period appropriate kit then have him do it all over again in his current Pinarello set-up and kit. I'm sure Eurosport and NBC would pay big $$$ for that video. Heck, you may even get Mr. Beast view counts on TH-cam with that video. We all want to see it!!!
Just imagine if Ineos are at it too.... would Ed be second place on the Sa Calobra Strava KOM if the training camp on Mallorca was where they were administering it!!??
165 also supposedly helps with knee fatigue because your knees have less high force peaks going through them when you’re at the top and bottom of the stroke
On paper Kwiatkovski should win this sprint but after a long sloping tour and stages it is the fittest who won. Still Campenaerts did his fair share of the work and until the final he did the longest turns. But he had too because he had to wear down the others. It worked because Kwiatkovski became third.
Polka dot Jersey - give points similar to sprint jersey (top 15) and more points in general. More rated climbs and no double points for Stage finish. A of stage 18 the polka dot Jersey lead has 77 KOM points. Green Jerseys lead has 387 points. KOM needs more points in more places. Maybe this would give more climbers who are not GC guys a chance to win the KOM Jersey
7:20 Why you guys talk BS? 20 yrs ago: a QB max threw 80 yds, a pitcher 100 mph, a sprinter ran 9.8, 800 m were run at 1.41... all same as of now... so dont take us for fools, this exposion of times in the past 2 years the TDF are not normal at all. Rspecially given the history of pro cycling. Stop talking BS. Stop selling E-Bike racing as legit bike racing in a TdF. Its BS.
He is mitochondrial doping. Both increasing density of mitochondria, the relative size of them, and the relative efficiency of mitochondria. This can be accomplished by training of course but there are other PE read: artificial (biochemical/genetic) methods to influence these mitochondrial factors
Maybe higher KOM points for earlier climbs in the stage. But let's face it - Tadej and Jonas are clearly the kings of the mountains, name a rider who climbs better?
Most of Tadej's and Jonas' climbs have been behind other riders (sometimes from their teams) for a good portion of the climb. Other riders climbed the mountains as part of a small breakaway and had to be in front for most of the climb. So even though their are clearly the best, not everyone rode the climbs the same way and that will surely mean some of them didn't get to go up as fast or making it look as easy.
I feel like we’re reaching the plateau for what cyclists are capable of without banned substances. If the recent streak of breaking old (doped) riders’ records continues, and minutes are still dropping off stage records, then I’d be much more concerned. But to be honest, I truly think the performances begin to level off from here on out.
It doesn't matter what improvements etc have occurred, they calculated the raw W/KG not the actual speed, and Pogi and vingegaard were still faster than Pantani or peak froome.
How this is a question is mind blowing. The last finisher of Roubaix this year was quicker than Cancellara winning not that long ago. It's not only one stage st the TdF, it's that Pogacar is smashing Strade Bianche in March, Liege in April, Giro in May , TdF in July and Lombardia in October. All year round fitness peak? Come on...
I think Cav deserves the Hawaiian jersey. Old bloke who came out to mop the noobs on a single stage and has just been mailing it in ever since. I can’t wait to watch his processional TT on the last day.
I like the idea of reducing the age for the white jersey. Not a black jersey for the best "old" rider, but grey with yellow bars/stripes. KOM needs to be more interesting... no KOM points at stage end?
Yeah guys and gal but let's forget Pogacar 2024 vs Pantani 1998 for a moment. It's Pogacar 2024 being something like 8% faster than Pogacar 2023 that sounds really suspicious. And it's the exact pattern that we've seen with riders like Indurain or Armstrong when the rest of the peloton seemed to be catching up and whatever they were doing last year seemed insufficient for them to win.
I’ve watched him very carefully this year and it’s Armstrong all over again. His acceleration on every mountain stage is very questionable. He seems fresh on every climb. His disqualification may not happen immediately but it will happen
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G already suggested in his podcast creation of the Grey Jersey for older riders
G would rock the Hawaiian jersey
Pretty sure the idea was started by The Cycling Podcast
@@edudutra G just wants a cool prize right before retirement
@rob-c. yes, probably. Now you said, I guess someone commented on this idea and he said he would back it up
With athletes going pro at a younger age across most sports I’d love an “older riders” jersey for sure.
before the final stages i wanted to thank you for the daily show! it's been great to follow the tour this way, definitely made me more interested in the race!
if your theory of "better nutrition/training/technology" is true (for breaking the old long standing Doped up Record by Pantani), then we shouldve seen the record slowly breaking or coming closer to, over the last 30 years. Not being broken by 3-4 riders in one stage, on the same day, in the last fatigue filled week of a big tour, and also going faster than Doped up Lance by 7 mins!!! there is definitely doping/PEDS going on, and the authorities are not acting on it.
Exactly… it’s always a caveat of better training/nutrition/aero tyres 😂 Smashed super-juiced Pantani by miles and not just Poggy. They’re all on it, just like most sports. Time will find them out just like it did Lance and the boys. We’d all love to believe it’s legit but history doesn’t lie.
It’s impossible not to sceptical; I get that. But the ‘clean hypothesis’ for want of a better phrase is that a step change in nutrition research enabling twice as many carbs to be absorbed per hour has occurred. This claimed step change has 2 prongs: (1) better nutrition products mixing fructose and glucose in an optimal way; (2) Recently teams have started training rider’s digestion. If that’s true, it wouldn’t lead to Pantani’s record being slowly approached over the years, it might well lead to this data.
I think we all agree that getting to the bottom of a climb fully carbed up versus depleted from the day and the tour makes a massive difference to the power you can put out up that climb.
they might be doping their metabolisms, there were some studies done with test result on gut and minimizing lactate(its a bi-product of our metabolism when we exercise, and causes muscle fatigue)
its not like they ride the same stages every year.. there can be many years in-between but still things seems off
It’s really hard to say. Pog might just have superior genetics and abilities. There are always going to be those individuals who have abnormal physical capabilities compared to others. Lance wasn’t really that special compared to someone like LeMond. LeMond had a MASSIVE VO2 max compared to other people. What I find interesting is that today’s GC riders look like how GC riders are supposed to look; no more of the Armstrongs and Riises with bodies that should be too large to lug around the mountains.
I really hope they aren’t using something new and undetectable. 🤞🏻
The white jersey should be for rookies and not be based on age. Maybe first time in a Grand Tour and not just first time in the Tour de France. Most first-timers are going to be pretty young, but if you're 35 and never been good enough for a team to take you to a Grand Tour before and you beat a 22-year-old, you friggin' deserve a special prize, I think.
@kjaime7030 I don't think there a many that do the tour de france as their first grand tour, talk about the deep end
Fastest first-timer would be good
I would at least say you couldn't win it more than once.
Fastest debut, independent of age
It's not a participation trophy. It's to have a second GC track for athletes still learning to pace themselves and manage their overall health. If you don't like this idea then just ignore it. And the only riders that are "rookies" at the Tour at that age no doubt have other GT experience, so what's the point of your idea? Maybe a more colorful jersey for Lanterne Rouge?
I don't know if I agree with the Hawaiian jersey to Campenaerts before today's stage. He tried a lot of breakways, and don't forget he made 5th in the TT with great performance, only losing to the 4 big guys. He stayed in the hot seat all day at that stage.
6:05 "Now the average amateur is almost ... just as fast as a top pro was 10 years ago" Bro, whatever you're smoking (or otherwise taking to achieve that performance ;)), I want it.
I’d love to only lose 5 minutes to Pogacar on a 15km climb😂
You’re underestimating how good amateur cyclists actually are
Maybe many amateurs are Juiced also then 😂😂. It wouldn't surprise me, I've not seen UKAD at any National Championships for years.
@@DaveWills23 Right. I've heard that many times: junior races and amateurs are the worst, due to the lack of controls (not only in cycling). Though one wonders how they would suddenly stop it once they turn pro (hint: they probably don't).
@@zigzagnemesist5074 Sure, if it wasn't for him saying 'average amateur', which includes people like myself 😂
Many thanks for bringing Ed in he’s a great guest, looking forward to his current verses vintage equipment comparison all ready 👍
The human body hasn't changed in 30 years and that is the limiting factor.
Aero makes you go faster but doesn't change power output possible in a human body.
Exactly! Wind resistance increases with speed. The faster you go the harder it is to go faster. Gains with technology should be small, not huge leaps. Guilty by your success.
but.. if you have 6 jelly babies, a gel, 5mm higher socks, that equates to an extra 289 watts
Did you listen to Campanarts statement? Crap treatment by team management
@@simoncummins2305 Johan Bruyneel said Campenaerts is headed to Visma next year. Looks bad for Lotto shitting on the guy who was your bright spot for the Tour. Hopefully the big team can pay him and treat him well. Sounds like he deserves it.
@@Chiller11 the Eurosport commentators mentioned it after the stage too. Too bad salary negotiations came before the stage win
you all are welcome to my hometown in the Himalayas, at 3400m 🤗. We ride our bikes upto 5700m 🕺🏽
One of the things I’m going to miss most about this podcast/show finishing up in a few days is Producer Emily’s “day” overdub in the fluff up of the X portion of the show. Laughed every time.
Really like how people like Ed follow the logical and scientific approach before they jump to speculation about doping. That's what other experts also say, like their amateur kids are doing better numbers than pros 30.
There was a really great study that an ironman triathlete did 10 years or so ago. At the world championships he sent a letter to every person that beat him asking about training, equipment, and doping. 100% anonymous. He. Was asking to see how he could improve. This was sent to age group racers (not pros). The % that we're using PEDS was greater than 30%. I know in USA in highschool sports PED use is high. There are zero PED controls in age group ironman and HS sports.
They said the same thing in the Armstrong era, that it was great improvements in training. The incentive to cheat is so high, and the drugs can be manufactured to not be detected in the testing, it is nieve to believe that there is not doping going on. Alot of French people believe that cycling is a dirty sport due to the long history of doping scandles in the sport.
@@jeni719 They did say that. And the reason they said that is that it might have been true. It makes no sense to defend yourself using an argument that could never be true.
I’m sceptical too frankly, but if there really has been a recent step change doubling the amount of carbs per hour riders can take in, it would have a massive effect on power numbers.
Even as an occasional rider who has got reasonably fit doing long rides a couple of times during my life, I’ve experienced the difference between being fully carbed up at the bottom of a climb and depleted of glycogen - it is absolutely enormous.
Of course it’s entirely possible both things are true. Sheer unevidenced speculation here, but what if a drug/mix of digestive enzymes has been discovered that has led to this step change increase in the efficiency of digestion of sugar?
Egan Bernal has said couple times in his podcast that he's moving bigger and better numbers than when he won the TdF 2019, and that it's no longer enough.
He has also said that cycling has changed specially since covid, and everything is now optimized and controlled to the max (tech, sport science, nutrition, training, recovery, etc), they even have a planning of expected watts per stage.
While you can't never say never, I'm not surprised about pro-cycling performance, and I just enjoy watching them race.
What a load of crap. 10% improvement at the professional level with millions of Euro's on the line... What crap they weren't testing everything for the last 4 decades. Sorry, no, you do not find magic beans for 10% improvement in power ratings without VO2max massive manipulation.
7W/kg? Feels like the average Zwifter you have to drive against 🤣
Definitely Van Art should wear the Hawaii jersey today
If you thought Victor has been having a chilled Tour until his stage win hiding in the bunch, I don't think you have been watching!
Laverick doing 15 mins at 7 wpk is itself insane. !!!!!! Thought he was going to say 60 secs to 5 mins.
If Ed Laverack can do 7w/kg for 15 mins it doesnt seem ludicrous that the best rider in the world can do it for 40
@@willbick3Exactly. Lots of riders can do it for 5 or more minutes. Anyway it's not 7 watts per kilo or anywhere close. Power meters overestimate by around 10%
Ed says what does it matter if they all give more or less the same reading? The answer is that it makes everyone overestimate the metabolic output and underestimate the biomechanical efficiency. So we get endless doping accusations from people who don't understand basic biology.😬
Love seeing Ed in the podcast
An question in addition to the over-/underrated talk today about the climbing jersey. maybe give points not to the first rider over a certain line, but for the fastest time up an hill. and who in the end has the fasted accumulated time over all mountains wins the climbing jersey over all? may this take our beloved jersey out of the hands of the gc guys, because they will not attack any climb?
Got to see and pick up marco pantanis bike in a bike shop so light and a thing of beauty
The actual thing that comes to mind is: How badly have they all been doped back then that it took the current pros with all their fancy material so long to beat the times.
What is very often overlooked in the discussion of training methods and recovery is social media. Back when we had no smartphones and social media we had to go out and have fun. Just regenerating your body in bed was quite boring. Rick Zabel was joking about every pro being adicted to instagram. So maybe they are just getting better recovery because they do what most of us do: Sit or lay in bed and watch TH-cam podcasts and shorts ;)
Another excellent show! I was curious to hear what producer Emily will say about Victor Campenaert’s stage win. He definitely deserves it, and I'm thrilled for him. His emotional interview after winning stage 18 of the Tour was very moving. Jimmi made a valid point about Philipsen. It would be historic if Philipsen wins a stage without MVDP (Mathieu van der Poel). MVDP should focus on his own career instead of becoming Philipsen's lead-out man. I think the prize money for the green jersey being only 1/20th compared to the yellow jersey is ridiculous. Sprinting is a risky business, and all that risk for one person to win 25k is not worth it. So, I would say the value of winning the green jersey is overrated in terms of the prize money received, unlike the polka dot or white jerseys.
Also, in my opinion, average cycling fans want to see action and winners. If there wasn’t sprinting in Tour de France, it would have been very boring in my opinion. If there was a cycling tour where the winner is determined by the number of stage wins instead of by time, and all stages were mountain stages, that could be really fun to watch.
wow, I would love to see the comparison with 30 years old bike. and 100 years old too hahaha tubes around the torso and cigarettes in hand XD
You have videos on YT with guys racing 100 yrs old bikes on TDF stage from 1903 from Paris to Lyon.
From what I could find, the Plateau de Beille was last ridden in 2015. There were surely very light carbon bikes ridden in 2015. That was nine years after Pantani's record and still, no one beat his time. This year, three riders were faster and the record was improved by an eye-widening three minutes and forty seconds. That is a LOT to think about.
Of course you're right! These guys are so dumb. If anything, bikes were lighter then. And assuming that these guys are all being tested thoroughly? Like Lance " I'm the most tested athlete in history in history" Armstrong? I could see giving people the benefit of the doubt when you don't have any affirmative evidence of cheating, but skepticism is required.
Nice seeing Ed on here! More please! 💯💯
Pantani record is 30 years old and has stood for that long time. How come it's only been broken now.
7 W/kg is more believable than last years time trial that had Jonas at 7.8w/kg.
It was not 7.8 but 7.4W/kg and only for 13min, not 40min. 2024 Pogacar would probably win the 2023 TT against 2023 Vingegaard.
If you believe all the GC riders are clean, you are naive. Destroying Bjarne Riis/Pantiani/Lance's W/Kg numbers on bread and jam, common.
If you believe you have the facts in hand necessary to make a "doped" vs "didn't dope" call on any rider in the grand tour, you're naive. You're basing your opinion on gut feel, which the DATA shows is unreliable and getting moreso all the time. If your gut feel was reliable you'd be rich via bets in the market by now. Are you?
It's not about a comparison in times. It's the 7wkg for 40 minutes. He did two thirds of that effort barely breathing
@@burnsideisback Barely breathing? Does that mean he was sucking more oxygen, ir less oxygen than what you expect?
LMAO..
@@jono1457-qd9ft That would mean that Pog can utilise more of the oxygen inhaled in one breath. I'm sceptical of his continual high performance throughout the season, when you would expect fatigue to start to become a factor, but maybe he has a personal system which allows quicker, fuller recovery.
@@philwyeth He sleeps better because he is very non neurotic. Also you can build your powers of recovery by building your training load gradually.
As for the breathing, he has a high oxygen uptake, and good basic speed. This combination makes him very energy efficient. Most of his critics don't understand this. They believe he is burning a lot more calories than he actually is.
@@philwyeth I just looked at your channel. I can see you have an interest in the science. I can explain more if you are interested?
Really enjoying the daily podcast, Ed is brilliant. He has a great perspective on things.
It makes no sense to compare it to Pantani and that era. We only need to compare it to the last 5 years. Or only from last year to this year. A rider that was capable to ride 7 W/kg for 14 Minutes is now able to ride the same watts for 40 Minutes and looked like, he can do it even longer. And because of the fact, that its only one year, ist not about training, material and so on.
But it would be interessting, what happens if Tadej would ride a bike and all the material of the "old" era of Pantani and lets see, what happens. In all other sports the world records only increased by nealry nothing percentigewise...so lets see, what Tadej will do. Normaly he should be a lot slower then Pantani, cause doping is a different level then supplements. Btw, if Froome would ride now with all new stuff like Bikes from 2024, trainings methods and so on...he would be much faster then all those guys.
GCN often does those types of comparisons between gear from different eras and times for certain routes. I am sure they probably have something like this is their archives.
Cyclingnews did a mathematical analysis of aero, rolling resistance, and drivetrain efficiency improvements. They were generous and calculated the modern rider has a 40 watt advantage. Accounting for that, Pogacar still beats doped Pantani by 43 seconds, Armstrong and Contador are minutes slower. Better way to look at is is a rider that could to 7w/kg for 15 minutes can now do 40 minutes, deep into the season and in the third week of a grand tour. As a bonus, he's fully recovered the next day.
This episode was hilarious, best one so far IMHO
regarding the times on climbs: it's not just the tech that's improved, but probably also road condition, tarmac quality, where people are allowed to watch on the climbs, weather etc. There's just so many factors at play when comparing times over decades.
and nutrition, and knowledge about how human body works.
I’m old enough to remember those same excuses being pushed out for Lance.
Not really tar was very good in 90s
Watch the "Cycling Highlights" you tube channel and you'll re-evaluate your point of view
@@jfischer it's a combination of a lot of things. I think the main contributor is knowledge around nutrition and training. Fueling every single ride optimally has a huge impact on how fatigued you get and the quality of training. In addition to testing the impact of training in ways the teams are innovating yearly
G did just come 3rd in the Giro, not bad for an old bloke! I would love to see him next year his last season just focus on the Tour for a podium
average amateur now equal to any pro ever is outrageous
Just a small correction for a small fluff up. The road(s) to Teide only go up to around 2300m. The cable car takes your near the top, which is around 3700m.
I would like to see a tour that is heavy with stages that are intermediate type stages were it has a bunch of 3rd and 2nd category climbs with a long down hill and flat to finish the stage. I think if you have a lot of those stages and less high mountain stages then it might open up the GC to riders like MVDP, Julian Alaphelipe, Wout van aert, or historically riders like Peter Sagan. I think a tour heavy with stages like that would make the racing more difficult but more entertaining. I think that type of route would make the racing for the Yellow, green and polka dot jerseys more competitive and fun to watch. It would also make the riders that contend much more talented riders overall. I don't see them ever going with that type of route but I really do think it would be fun.
In regards to commenting on the power numbers while climbing, don’t post it in your title if you’re just going to be cowards and not discuss the real question.
THE EQUIPMENT DOES NOT IMPACT THE W/KG - THEY WOULD JUST GO SLOWER - THE 7 W/KG IS A PHYSIOLOGICAL OUTPUT NOT DEPENDANT ON THE BIKE UNDER THEM - IT ISNT SPEED - ITS POWER OUTPUT. caps hopefully make this clear
Agreed. And better nutrition during the ride makes them have a higher repeatability of power, but it wouldn't give them 7W/kg or power
The w/kg is an estimate that is based on speed, gradient and estimated weight… the equipment advantages ‘save watts’
The ftp is calculated based on speed because they don't have the power meter numbers I think.
The w/kg is estimated based on time. Not off power numbers. So unless it's claimed the times are adjusted for equipment (and if so how), the w/kg numbers are not really comparable.
So, Pog is around 66kg right? 7w/kg is 462 watts. Doesn't seem sus at all.
Is he really still 66kg? He looks pretty slim this year
I can’t believe he’s 66 kg, more like 63
@@willbick3I can’t believe he’s 63kg, more like 64.5.
I believe that 7w/kg is the issue here, not that they are faster and beating the old records. It is expected, that with advances in technology, they will be beating old records, but Pogacar is beating what was thought to be humanly possible. From what I understand, the concern is that Pogacar is outputting more watts than Mr. Armstrong in his most doped days. Whether this is true or not I don't know, but each time someone raises the ladder of what was thought previously possible, there have been deniers or hatters trying to find some wrong doing and I think this is true in each category of life not just cycling or sports in general. So for me, I hope they are clean and just extremely good.
Training and nutrition is better than it has ever been, UAE has a huge budget and have likely invested a huge amount into making sure Pog is dialed in rather than just relying on drugs like Armstrong, Pog gets tested at the end of every stage while he is wearing the yellow jersey, I have no doubts.
@@Lou-Lou. Pogacar at start if the season switched personal trainer as well. Something about not being happy getting 'the same as normal' training regime when be broke his wrist, and the trainer couldn't give him a regime which worked around that wrist as much as possible.
New trainer is also much better with nutrition, and Pogacar last times when he cracked on long hot days was never paying attention to cooling.
UAE learned, the marginal gains Visma had been racking up for some years in this regard seem to be spreading around the peleton.
7 watt per kg is normal in strava. I even saw 10w/kg in strava and he does it for 2 hours.
It is true, Armstrong is on record (it was also measured at the university of TExas) saying that on EPO he had an FTP of 500 Watts at 72-73 kilos, that's about 6.9 W/Kg and that's rested. Not in the 2nd week of the Tour. Cunego won the Giro doing 6.7 Watts/kg doped to the gills. Guess who was his team manager... The same BS excuses I was hearing in 2004 about Armstrong and his custom made Treks, his hours in the wind tunnel, the special tyres that they were using that had them in a cellar for a year before they put them on a bike (don't ask me why). It's no that they are beating old records. They are demolishing old records, done by the most doped cyclists in history, supposedly clean. I say BS.
@@Ashok_Regiment Yep....I agree....Utter BS
good ideas and discussion. the TT at the end is very cool.
I've been peevish about the drab green jersey color. Glad you brought it up. As a Yank I don't care about Skoda one bit .Ha!
I'm going to assume that Pantani was on 9 speed gearing and no tooth larger than a 21-23 in the back.... Gearing alone makes a huge difference and having access to your power while racing. Yellow Jersey group just sits in the peloton for 90% of the stage and has to perform for the last 10%. Racing is totally different as well.. It's like they're on a fast group ride until the last 8k of the race.
And pantani was not tanking 120g of carbs an hour, don't know how anyone can compare them lol
9 speed has a 27 tooth big sprocket which even Lance had to use on the really steep climbs!
Yeah, see also Team Sky in 2012-18 were basically amateurs who didn't train properly or know how to get the right nutrition which is why their times are being obliterated by the professionalism we now see.
@@Lou-Lou. it's not the amount of carbs, its the amount oxygen available in the bloodstream to break glucose down into energy that is the issue.
@@michaelb1716 yep yep noob team sky dragging down the entire pro peloton and stopping records to be made, their team bus was basically a rental van, Porte had to sleep in a RV trailer bc sky sucked so bad
why does everyone keep bringing up "equipment" when these watts per kilo numbers are raised? watts per kilo is completely independent of your equipment! the fact that bikes are more aero nowadays shouldn't make cyclists have more power in their legs. it just means they go faster for the same amount of power. Bringing up how bike technology has changed in the past 30 years is completely beside the point!
the only explanations are either 1: improvements to diet and training regimes. 2: that today's cyclists just have naturally better genetics than yesteryears or 3: doping. that is the issue being discussed.
Little bit of 1, lots of 3.
The w/kg numbers quoted have NOT come straight from Tadej's power meter or coaching team. They are estimated. In order to estimate the w/kg on that climb you have to consider every factor, rider weight (estimated), bike weight, bidon weight, rolling resistance, aerodynamics, weather conditions, EVERYTHING. So tech is actually critical in coming up with these numbers.
If we knew the real w/kg, then we wouldn't need all the other info, but we don't know the real numbers. Once all the gear is factored in and we have some speculative w/kg number, we can tentatively compare with the past. But it's nothing more than just speculative. Hence the argument about modern equipment and modern training methods etc, because the only REAL comparison we have between Tadej and past riders is their speed up the climb.
Given the every bike has a transponder, it should be possible to time every rider up each climb, so the polka dot competition is decided by the fastest ascent, regardless of where the rider is in the peloton, rather than the first rider over the top
This would just make it way more complicated, plus riders wouldn’t know during a stage whether they should continue fighting for points etc. Why make the sport overly complicated for riders and especially viewers?
@@Knofris Why would it be complicated? Its just a timed run for every rider from point a (the declared bottom/foot of the mountain) and point b (the peak). Whoever climbs it the fastest gets the most points.
@@nuun0010 Now do that for 150 riders on every single climb. Did you even read my comment?
@@Knofris whether riders choose to contest a climb is up to them or their DSs through the radio - they'll already know what time they have to beat through the radio, just as in a TT. As for making it complicated, it's well within the capability of software. I mean, for a TT, they're able to calculate and display the riders' times and rankings in real time. If Strava can quickly rank often-thousands of riders over thousands of defined segments, surely the World Tour can capture the data over a few segments/stage for a couple of hundred riders? In any case, there won't be 150 riders contesting any climb - the riders who are competing will be a select few - the other 90% won't count.
Right now, the KOM is largely decided "first to the top", not "fastest to the top". I'd be interested in seeing the average speed of the "big dogs" over all the categorized climbs this year - I never saw Carapaz overtake Pog on a climb, while Pog blew past Carapaz at least twice, IIRC - yet - Carapaz is in the polka dot jersey.
What is the scheduled/expected completion of Ed's testing!?
It would break my heart if POGs numbers are PED “inflated” . He’s part of the reason for my renewed interest in bike racing just as Armstrong was to me way back when.
Interesting equivalency.
I was a massive Lance fan and totally defended him. Just can't believe these performance numbers. Human bodies take thousands of years to evolve. Can't tell me bike tech allows a clean athlete to best performance of juiced riders from 20yrs ago. PED! But still enjoying POGs riding. It's like enjoying WWE with full knowledge it's scripted
Of course it’s PED’s.
@@deadliaski its not just bike tech. Its bike tech, nutrition both before races and during races, management of fitness and rest through the season, expert training. All of these things are magnified with the internet that blew up since the internet and access to information continues to be more prevalent.
Everyone is on the sauce. You are being dishonest with yourself if you truly believe otherwise
I think Ed's wrong on the race radios tbh. The world's road race is always quite different without radios than every other race. The DS's get to see everything differently and without being exhausted so the tactics are all spoon fed to the riders. You can even see it on the breakaways, they know exactly the time gaps all the time and how much to let them go up the road and when to start to reign them in to catch them with as little effort as possible and at the right time. Every single video of inside a team car you'll see them talking on the radio to the riders. Even in a tt they'll tell them which corners are in the skis and which are on the base bars or when they need to look up ffs
The Worlds is an entirely different race on the racing calendar, we can’t compare that one. Also, don’t believe everything you see in the coverage, believe me, the riders are making most of the calls ok the road because they are the ones actually in the race. Even with radios we go back to the car to actually chat face to face with the car incase anything is lost or confused in translation. As someone that’s raced in large UCI races with radios they have only really been used to communicate major updates/changes or things to remind us of coming up. Honestly, most of the time, the riders know what’s happening. 😊
A great difference is that Pantani did most of the climb first person.
13:30 make sprint stages like crits. You collect the points on the course and most points wins. Separate to green jersey.
I think for the polka dot journey to truly be something for someone to go for and be proud of and something like the green jersey, you need to eliminate anyone who is trying to go for GC. So either eliminate everyone in the top three (at least; maybe top ten or twelve or twenty) from consideration, since podium spots and UCI points should be enough of a prize, or do not award polka dot points for the final climb (especially stages that end with a climb) or that include bonus seconds. Also, the green jersey needs to be just a sprint jersey and not get any points from climbs. I also think to make the Tour more exciting, more intermediate sprints points shoujdl be awarded, and they should not go to any breakaway riders. If you really want to show off your sprinting prowess, you should contest those intermediate sprints as well and not simply conserve your energy for the final sprint.
Does Slovenia have an Oprah?
We don’t need her😂
Another benefit of shorter cranks is that they affect your gearing, so assuming they work for your position and you can put out the power you will travel faster…
He wins the giro and dances up the final mountain stages of the tdf at about 110 cadence out of the saddle with zero strain on his face. Its beyond ridiculous. Team sky led the way getting world tour cycling modernised using state of the art methods and everyone caught up.. pogs level is too far ahead of ELITE athletes.
Emily, I keep tuning in with that voice of yours. Years ago when they told us about the blackbird spy plane it is because they something much more advanced. Years ago during the froome days I heard a program on mpr about new tech on this. This program blew my mind on much it has advanced. The only ones that will be able to use will the ones with very deep pockets. This was from the uk. If you Have not heard of it, is because they a very good job keeping it from the public. I wish I have saved the program date so you find it and listen to it so you hear for yourself how far we are have gone in this area. I do believe we are seeing the results of this. Epo is old tech.
If you changed the polka dot jersey rules to only be mid-stage climbs, you could design some sprint stages with a mid stage ramp the climbers will compete for and make the overall stage much more all-round interesting.
I would like to see the final TT times from the top of the climb back down into Nice. The top 3 in the overall were absolutely lit going down...
Equipment and sports science has improved significantly in the last 30 years. But we must remember that the elite riders of the 90s and 2000s were doping to astonishing levels with PFCs, EPO, anabolics, testosterone, cortisone, transfusions etc. They resulted in scientifically proven performance benefits of 10%+ from clean riders. This is widely accepted and not disputed.
Armstrong said he held a threshold of 500W for 30 minutes at 73kg on the col de la Madone in training in his winning years. His times are being obliterated, he would have been 3.9 kilometres behind Pogacar at the finish line the other day, it's hard to believe that's possible clean but let's just say for arguments sake that it was...
If we accept Pogacar is completely clean, then we would have to acknowledge that he would be able to hold 8W/kg or more for around 45 minutes if he used performance enhancing methods such as transfusions and epo, based on applying known and established improvement percentages. That is surely not humanely possible?
I'm wary of dismissing concerns about the levels we're witnessing simply because bikes weren't as aero a few years ago. I struggle to accept that the likes of Team Sky five years ago were running an amateur outfit with outdated equipment, training and nutrition which explains why they were so slow in comparison to now. Maybe it's brake discs making them go faster!
Having said all this, I really don't care if doping is taking place. Pogacar and this generation are amazing to watch!!
Even if doped riders in 2000 really were gaining 10% (not saying they weren’t, but good evidence about actual performance gains is NOT easy to come by), that doesn’t mean that current athletes, with significantly better training, would make the same gains. It’s entirely possible that pharmaceutical aid was making up for worse training. Can we get funding to clone Pogacar and dope it to the gills?
main benefit of ending with a sprint is that it rewards the sprinters that can survive the big mountains. If there is nothing left after stage 16 or whatever, then you'll get more that just sort of stop trying and drop out. PLus how well you survive and can then have a match to burn is a big part.
To those wondering about the elevation thingy:
Higher elevation means thinner atmosphere means less oxygen molecules.
So if you are not used to being in that altitude, your lungs and heart have to work more than what it's used to.
This is the same reason why mountain climbers stay at a certain altitude to get used to the thinner atmosphere before going higher. A good example would be Mount Everest.
I hope this helps. 😊
great show, but really hard to look-up you guys there's no intro or info about the guys (and gals) speaking here. Would be great if you could add details in the description or adding details in the main YT channel page ?
That 7w/kg number was normalized, so that all the equipment gains and changes were accounted for when compared to past data. People need to read the research behind that number, the level of data and number crunching that was done was incredible and on par with what you would find in any published academic research paper (honestly better than many I've read). This isn't just, equipment has gotten better or nutrition is better, they factored all that data when comparing him to Marco.
They seem to be incapable of understanding this.
Did this research and paper have Pogacar's actual weight? You know the most important number in the W/kg formula?
It's called doping. Pantani hemoglobin was 18 when he did the climb.
Where can I find that info? Very curious to see how they adjusted for rolling resistance and all that
So they had every single date, including exact bike weight, rider weight, etc.? If so, where do I find these statistics? Or let me guess, they don’t have the data and are just estimating?
You can compare equipment from different eras. I think it was Cyclingnews that did the math and with some generous calculations came up with a 40 watt advantage in the modern setup. They looked at tire rolling resistance as well as aero improvements in bike, wheels, clothing, and rider position. The conclusion is that modern equipment might account for almost 3 minutes, but Pogacar still beats chemically assisted Pantani by 40 seconds without it. Fully doped Armstrong and Contador are even farther back.
In the interview, Pog seemed to say that the biggest output was when they were all following Matteo Jorgensen.
That cant be true
I'm shure they use different "Gear" today :D
Basically, pog, and probably vingo, both are getting the same medicine prescrived to them, and its not yet on the list of banned methods.
If Pantani would have the same equipment it is still different. The way they race now is some much different and even that has become more efficient
Not to mention nutrition, I doubt pantani was having anything close to 120g of carbs an hour
Fluff up of the day should have been Matteo Vercher from Total Energies who crashed in the neutralized section before the race started. Although, he kind of made up for it by coming in second on the stage
The best wattage comparison is to what was happening 5 years ago or maybe 10 years ago and not Pantani.. Then we could see whether or not nutrition, training etc are likely on their own are responsible for the latest power figures.
Theres all the modern gains... nutrition, training, equipment etc., but some things in cycling remain a mystery. Yesterday I did the same watts as my PB from 4 years ago on our local climb 5.6km at 10% and was over 10% slower about 2mins. Probably the weather conditions like wind and humidity.
".. is it bonkers?"'yeah" lol. straight away. really is crazy numbers. impressive times we live in
I would say the Hawaiian jersey should go to the entire Bora-Hansgrohe team, but they did start to pick things up lately.
Hawaiian jersey nominee - Chris Juul-Jensen, he's normally far more animated than he has been this tour
The one thing I would ask is how accurate, precise, repeatable are these power numbers? I’m admittedly asking from a position of cycling ignorance but as someone who has designed scientific research the quality of the data you’re using to formulate your conclusions is paramount.
More accurate than HR, cadence and speed. That's about as good as is needed.
Exactly - I mean, the hard proof of "really good performance" is in the record-breaking climb time. But trying to estimate power from that when drafting and wind are part of the equation is tough - plus average speed up the entire climb assumes Pantanti and Pog/JV/Remco paced it the same, which is almost certainly NOT true.
A reddit user "belhill1985" did a really great analysis on Stage 16 last year (can't do links in comments here, but google the username and "Power Estimation for the Stage 16 ITT" to find it), where many had claimed JV did 7.6+W/kg on the 13min 21sec climb; his excellent analysis gave something closer to 7.0W/kg, interestingly very very similar to what Ed says he himself has done.
Pogacar posts his weight? His strava files? Or is it just guessing and estimation from other riders strava?
@@hendrixinfinity3992how.... we don't have pogi power number. The guys are using chart
Exactly - I mean, the hard proof of "really good performance" is in the record-breaking climb time. But trying to estimate power from that when drafting and wind are part of the equation is tough - plus average speed up the entire climb assumes Pantanti and Pog/JV/Remco paced it the same, which is almost certainly NOT true.
Someone did a really great analysis of Stage 16 last year (should be able to search for Power Estimation for the Stage 16 ITT by belhill1985), where many had claimed JV did 7.6-8.0W/kg on the 13min 21sec climb; his excellent analysis gave something closer to 7.0W/kg, interestingly very very similar to what Ed says he himself has done.
Yes! Please have Geraint Thomas riding a steel 1995 Pinarello Banesto with a Campagnolo 8 speed group set and steel wheels with 23 mm tubular tires up the Stelvio pass, dressed in a period appropriate kit then have him do it all over again in his current Pinarello set-up and kit. I'm sure Eurosport and NBC would pay big $$$ for that video. Heck, you may even get Mr. Beast view counts on TH-cam with that video. We all want to see it!!!
It's not doping folks, I believe so he is a cyborgnetic organism
Just imagine if Ineos are at it too.... would Ed be second place on the Sa Calobra Strava KOM if the training camp on Mallorca was where they were administering it!!??
I haven’t seen someone so powerful everyday with outrageous acceleration on EVERY mountain stage since Armstrong 😬
It’s very hard to hide long term
Geraint Thomas has done jack. He needs the Hawaiian jersey.
165 also supposedly helps with knee fatigue because your knees have less high force peaks going through them when you’re at the top and bottom of the stroke
I have a Battaglin with Dura Ace that is 30 years old. You can use that 😊Same one Steven Roche used when he won..
On paper Kwiatkovski should win this sprint but after a long sloping tour and stages it is the fittest who won. Still Campenaerts did his fair share of the work and until the final he did the longest turns. But he had too because he had to wear down the others. It worked because Kwiatkovski became third.
Polka dot Jersey - give points similar to sprint jersey (top 15) and more points in general. More rated climbs and no double points for Stage finish. A of stage 18 the polka dot Jersey lead has 77 KOM points. Green Jerseys lead has 387 points. KOM needs more points in more places. Maybe this would give more climbers who are not GC guys a chance to win the KOM Jersey
We know going uphill to Plateau de Beille is that Jonas help paced Pogi to reach that w/kg in 5kms. It surely helps. Maybe 20-30 seconds faster.
7:20 Why you guys talk BS? 20 yrs ago: a QB max threw 80 yds, a pitcher 100 mph, a sprinter ran 9.8, 800 m were run at 1.41... all same as of now... so dont take us for fools, this exposion of times in the past 2 years the TDF are not normal at all. Rspecially given the history of pro cycling. Stop talking BS. Stop selling E-Bike racing as legit bike racing in a TdF. Its BS.
He is mitochondrial doping. Both increasing density of mitochondria, the relative size of them, and the relative efficiency of mitochondria. This can be accomplished by training of course but there are other PE read: artificial (biochemical/genetic) methods to influence these mitochondrial factors
Maybe higher KOM points for earlier climbs in the stage. But let's face it - Tadej and Jonas are clearly the kings of the mountains, name a rider who climbs better?
Most of Tadej's and Jonas' climbs have been behind other riders (sometimes from their teams) for a good portion of the climb. Other riders climbed the mountains as part of a small breakaway and had to be in front for most of the climb. So even though their are clearly the best, not everyone rode the climbs the same way and that will surely mean some of them didn't get to go up as fast or making it look as easy.
I feel like we’re reaching the plateau for what cyclists are capable of without banned substances.
If the recent streak of breaking old (doped) riders’ records continues, and minutes are still dropping off stage records, then I’d be much more concerned. But to be honest, I truly think the performances begin to level off from here on out.
It doesn't matter what improvements etc have occurred, they calculated the raw W/KG not the actual speed, and Pogi and vingegaard were still faster than Pantani or peak froome.
Thank god someone else made this point
Removes weather, rolling resistance of tyres, aero, road re-surfacing etc etc
100%!!
7 W/KG is 7 W/KG
I reckon its Jonas' day today. Historically its when they are at high altitudes that he has the edge on pog
Underrated or overrated: Replacing steel bolts for titanium ones
It's not 7w/kg tho. More like 6.4-6.7 at best.
6.7 at altitude … 7.1 at sea level. Smells like carbon monoxide …. Wait ….
I think it's more like 6.2 The 7 watts per kilo nonsense started 20 years ago With Antoine Vayer describing Lance Armstrong's Alpe d'huez ascent.
How this is a question is mind blowing. The last finisher of Roubaix this year was quicker than Cancellara winning not that long ago. It's not only one stage st the TdF, it's that Pogacar is smashing Strade Bianche in March, Liege in April, Giro in May , TdF in July and Lombardia in October. All year round fitness peak? Come on...
I think Cav deserves the Hawaiian jersey. Old bloke who came out to mop the noobs on a single stage and has just been mailing it in ever since. I can’t wait to watch his processional TT on the last day.
I like the idea of reducing the age for the white jersey. Not a black jersey for the best "old" rider, but grey with yellow bars/stripes. KOM needs to be more interesting... no KOM points at stage end?
Hawaiian Jersey #73 position Oliver Naesen Decathlon/AG2R never heard his name mentioned and right in the middle of the pack.
Yeah guys and gal but let's forget Pogacar 2024 vs Pantani 1998 for a moment. It's Pogacar 2024 being something like 8% faster than Pogacar 2023 that sounds really suspicious. And it's the exact pattern that we've seen with riders like Indurain or Armstrong when the rest of the peloton seemed to be catching up and whatever they were doing last year seemed insufficient for them to win.
i really don't care if the pros are clean, just entertain me. it's undoubtable that this generation is one of the most entertaining ever.
🤦♂️
Well then it's just some weird kind of a freak show! What about human dignity?
@@FGIRAFFE i have no illusion that any rider in the world tour is clean. The biological passport makes it too easy.
I’ve watched him very carefully this year and it’s Armstrong all over again.
His acceleration on every mountain stage is very questionable.
He seems fresh on every climb.
His disqualification may not happen immediately but it will happen