The crew on the podcast: Mill is a bad archetype because it helps your opponents The crew playing commander: Crim is milling us for 3 each turn, we're screwed!
I mean, that was literraly the point on the podcast. How you're gonna be a target even if you're not realistically winning or a threat per se, milling card is annoying and people will try to stop you
Literally getting wrecked by a "terrible" mechanic. Its so terrible that if they don't pool their resources and work together they will all loose. But i guess that makes sense in Seth and Richards mind. If something is so powerful it just makes you a target its always bad.
I hear you, but it literally allowed two other desks to win before getting to win itself. So to recap: Crim milled everyone ALMOST to death, fueling two different decks in two different games, became the archenemy of the table, and lost both games. Yet, people still think mill is good? .... Ya, I don't think so.
@@TheIndianaJonas it was more than annoying though, he almost won the first game xD Being phased out by an uncounterable land, a super specific effect, was all that stopped the voltron mill deck xD 2 archetypes that are considered "bad." Until they have a good pilot and decent deck building. Regardless of their thoughts on the podcast, Crim was going to run away with the game.
@@DrukenReaps That isn't what happened though. Instead Richard won because of his stacked graveyard. Sure, mill can sneak out a game, but realistically all it did was stack the graveyards of Richard and Phil allowing them to win.
They said towards the end of the first game that they were "letting Crim win" by ignoring him but the truth is that they targeted Crim from the very beginning of that game he was already archenemy after the crab fell.
@@Lucarioguild7it’s unbelievably good with fetches. Like if you get two fetches and a surveyors scope it’s like an auto win. I know it can rare but having that upside with downside of it draws you two cards and slows you down a bit is worth it
@@peewee0224 the card is only good if you are going 3rd or 4th or if you have a fetchland. Most of the time it's going to be a rampant growth. Sometimes it's literally a do nothing card. It's not worth it.
It is a bad archetype, but the new commander is one of the first that makes it truly viable. Milling the entire table for minimum 10 each turn is a lot more efficient than Mill commanders of the past. The thing is, the reason mill is bad is because it does make you a target, as we literally saw in the video. Crim also had literally every right answer at the exact time he needed it for most of the first game. Mill is a bad win condition, but wizards is giving it more tools which is great to see.
"We're not you Crim, of course it resolves" had me laughing out loud so hard. The tone of voice, the half chuckle... Seth knows he's a dirty counterburn player deep inside under his Timmy mask.
Did they know Crim was gonna play Mindskinner this episode or do they generally play mass reanimation? I feel like this was one of the first times I see them play such a spell in a generic deck, and we see it back to back in two games by different players. That being said, super sick game 1 and glad we got another two-game episode!
This is like saying "You said Griffons aren't dangerous, but then a year later wotc printed a 2-mana 10/10 griffon commander!" Guess you were wrong eh?
to be fair, Sword doesn't come down on consistently turn 3 and start swinging on it's own next turn for 10 and give unblockable, it requires so much more to be as good as this.
Even though he didn't win, and even though he powered up cards that utilize the graveyard I think he proved his point. The two cards he lost to game one could have just as easily been milled game one. Sometimes they have it, just how it goes. It is a high profile strategy that gets you killed. Any high profile strategy does. Mono blue mill is a little harder to make work, but if Mindskinner was Dimir it would be an easy clap. Many more ways to use and remove your opponent's graveyards. But Crim made them respect it, win or lose. It may not be a an intrinsically smart strategy to play it notoriously over a long game, but it is effective.
So let me get this straight, game 1 Crim milled 3 decks down to less than 20 cards over the course of 7 or so turns, then one of his opponents cast a mass reanimate and killed the table. Checks out.
@@charmandenator5686 Almost. They have 0 cards in library, they still get an upkeep and a chance to respond before attempting to draw a card. Game isn't over until it is.
@@lesternomo6578 Seth had replenish, eerie ultimatum and Awakening hall in the deck, rich and phil both had ascend. Chances are one of those cards hit the table, compared to an uncounterable removalspell
@@BludMun you're not wrong. They regularly run far too little removal. But I think "no one plays targeted removal" is a little harsh. As far as these guys are concerned, that was a lot of removal.
Second game, there wouldn't be a window to Beast Within the Delney where it would prevent the trigger doubling. Either it's after the Avernus and things have already gone on the stack, or it's in response to the Avernus and it'll be brought back alongside the rest
There isn't really. If Delney is on the battlefield when the trigger happened they are going to double since all the trigger go on the stack right away and Delney is on the battlefield when they happen and then if you do it in response as you mentioned that Delney will be reanimated along with everything else.
I love y’all but oh my gosh Crim was on another level of funny in this episode, him being like “I’m not doing damage to you” is just top tier comedy this episode,
On their tier list podcast the crew isn't exactly wrong with mill and these two games were a good showcase for it. Often they do splashy things and can easily become the archenemy. However due to the specific wincon it's hard for them to get it in for the win. Personally I enjoy mill as commander is less about winning and more about doing wild and memorable shit.
no way seth was talking about how casual players get all butthurt when they get their stuff milled and then he starts the episode off talking about how crim milled his super cool rooms loll
It's a great explanation of their point. Mill decks are very visible and make you a threat. It's very easy to deflect attention away from your own solitaire boardstate and get others to attack the mill player. They do this while also giving their opponents resources in the form of a massive graveyard. In these games, Crim was a big threat with all players pointing at him and trying to stop him, which forced him to play very defensively. He got most of the way there but his opponents stabilized, stopped him at a critical moment, and won using the massive pile of resources he gave them.
Lessons we take from this episode: 1) Tomer was right when people overestimate how dangerous mill is and that they will target you. Just look at Seth worried that ruin crab was milling 3 each turn. 2) The crew is very weak against voltron decks because they don't have enough interaction. If everyone had interaction Crim would not be able to protect his crab every turn. 3) Mill is indeed bad as it just helped Richard to win the game in the end.
Happy to see that both games proved how mill helps massively other decks. Those Ascend from Avernus wouldn't have been nearly as busted without the mill 😅
43:30 Seth: Wheres all the wraths? Little did he know that Crim and Richard were usually the ones who packed all the wraths, and one was on token aggro and the other was on voltron
Small editing note. At 53:40 when Beza was on screen, it appeared right as Crim was talking about Soulless Jailer, so I thought that's why they card popped up instead of it being Phil resolving Beza's trigger. Was just a little confusing due to the timing
I hope Seth plays rooms again cause in this Mill and aggro pod he kinda just got hosed 😂 Also shout out to Richard for returning the Hawk To Hand and ramping with that thing
15:30 Not that it matters, as he will never deal the damage, but it actually wouldnt be able to cipher on anything anyway. It phases out the creature so he doesnt control any creatures when he gets to the Cipher line of text.
If anyone needs explaining about “this card/archetype is so good it’s bad” they need to watch this episode. Crim milling Richard into the most insane ascend from avernus you’ll ever see is exactly why everyone says “please fill my graveyard”
4:00 lol EXACTLY. Every time they mention milling someone on clash they say "when you mill people it's just giving them access to more cards" but mow all of a sudden everyone's lamenting milling 😂. The way they talk about it on the pod it's like everyone's playing Muldrotha every game
I can't believe crim was getting ignored this whole game because he was playing mill and that turned him invisible, I really think his presence should be acknowledged at least
Not sure if it matters, but couldn't Phil have tapped his commander to make another titan to kill something with the 3 damaqe & block and survive at 1? better yet, respond to the avernus, pinging the commander for 2? saving the table?
Everyone hitting Crim has nothing to do with mill and everything to do with the text "each opponent". You make yourself archenemy if you bring any commander that has that text.
Richard wins the 1st game, because he constibuted nothing to stopping Crim. It's sad that "defect attention to others" + "play solitare" is actually the best strategy.
@@skykur He casted a board wipe that send everyone into oblivion against a voltron deck who is stacked with cards to avoid sweepers with untapped lands. Phil just gave Richard the W because he actually did something right.
Seth: mill is D-tier
Seth, on the second crab trigger: are we gonna die to this?
They say that with everything tbf
The crew on the podcast: Mill is a bad archetype because it helps your opponents
The crew playing commander: Crim is milling us for 3 each turn, we're screwed!
I mean, that was literraly the point on the podcast. How you're gonna be a target even if you're not realistically winning or a threat per se, milling card is annoying and people will try to stop you
Literally getting wrecked by a "terrible" mechanic. Its so terrible that if they don't pool their resources and work together they will all loose. But i guess that makes sense in Seth and Richards mind. If something is so powerful it just makes you a target its always bad.
I hear you, but it literally allowed two other desks to win before getting to win itself. So to recap: Crim milled everyone ALMOST to death, fueling two different decks in two different games, became the archenemy of the table, and lost both games. Yet, people still think mill is good? .... Ya, I don't think so.
@@TheIndianaJonas it was more than annoying though, he almost won the first game xD Being phased out by an uncounterable land, a super specific effect, was all that stopped the voltron mill deck xD 2 archetypes that are considered "bad." Until they have a good pilot and decent deck building. Regardless of their thoughts on the podcast, Crim was going to run away with the game.
@@DrukenReaps That isn't what happened though. Instead Richard won because of his stacked graveyard. Sure, mill can sneak out a game, but realistically all it did was stack the graveyards of Richard and Phil allowing them to win.
They said towards the end of the first game that they were "letting Crim win" by ignoring him but the truth is that they targeted Crim from the very beginning of that game he was already archenemy after the crab fell.
Surveyor's Scope getting a 6x increase in price because of a Shark Tank episode really is the most Richard thing ever.
Meanwhile you couldn't pay me to play that card in my deck
@@Lucarioguild7it’s unbelievably good with fetches. Like if you get two fetches and a surveyors scope it’s like an auto win. I know it can rare but having that upside with downside of it draws you two cards and slows you down a bit is worth it
@@peewee0224 the card is only good if you are going 3rd or 4th or if you have a fetchland. Most of the time it's going to be a rampant growth. Sometimes it's literally a do nothing card. It's not worth it.
@@BludMun In colors that can't land ramp the Scope is just as good as Wayfarer's Bauble.
@@zweis no, for the reasons I just previously stated. Look at the most recent clash game, Richard played land tax and it didn't even trigger once
Spot removal bad.
Mill bad.
Oh god, there's mill, where's the spot removal!?
Always love when the chickens (usually Crim) come home to roost.
"Mill doesn't matter! Bad archetype!"
"Oh god it's a mill deck! Kill it quick!!!!"
😆
😂😂
Facts I'm building this deck too.
mill sucks. there is a 90% chance you won't enjoy it. but you do you!
They hate to actually play against mill because it gets rid of their “sweet” value pieces.
It is a bad archetype, but the new commander is one of the first that makes it truly viable. Milling the entire table for minimum 10 each turn is a lot more efficient than Mill commanders of the past. The thing is, the reason mill is bad is because it does make you a target, as we literally saw in the video. Crim also had literally every right answer at the exact time he needed it for most of the first game. Mill is a bad win condition, but wizards is giving it more tools which is great to see.
Crim playing mill is the biggest plot twist that nobody saw coming.
GO MILL GO!!!
"We're not you Crim, of course it resolves" had me laughing out loud so hard. The tone of voice, the half chuckle... Seth knows he's a dirty counterburn player deep inside under his Timmy mask.
Best part
Richard the type of guy to win game 1 and STILL no one thinks he’s the threat in game 2
The way he gaslights his employees is truly legendary
Hoping and praying Crim plays his commander, attacks and passes over and over to win the game, because single target removal is a myth
Nearly! 😅
Did they know Crim was gonna play Mindskinner this episode or do they generally play mass reanimation?
I feel like this was one of the first times I see them play such a spell in a generic deck, and we see it back to back in two games by different players.
That being said, super sick game 1 and glad we got another two-game episode!
13:44 NOT THE CRAB!
Seth: We need to interact with Crim on his turn.
Seth: *immediately taps out*
When Seth says that, what he really means is: I need you guys to take care of my problem while I ramp and draw some more cards.
@@TheWoelrat Richard really has been a terrible influence on Seth
Don't ever tell Crim something isn't dangerous. He will, in fact, prove you wrong in the most devious way.
This is like saying "You said Griffons aren't dangerous, but then a year later wotc printed a 2-mana 10/10 griffon commander!" Guess you were wrong eh?
The amount of cope richard had these games against crim was unreal. Bravo crim. You're doing some real honest and good work.
I’m here for it!! The mill!!! Put respect on Crim’s name for that play! 15:45
"A single card keeping him losing." "This is why Mill sucks, it can be stopped when 3 players focus the mill player AND get lucky."
Mill makes you the archenemy. You will often get focused down. While also giving your opponents a ton of resources. That's a recipe for disaster.
If Crim takes this, I will take back everything I've said about Sword of Body and Mind.
well, i got good news for you.... no so much for crim.
to be fair, Sword doesn't come down on consistently turn 3 and start swinging on it's own next turn for 10 and give unblockable, it requires so much more to be as good as this.
Crim would've had them the first game anyway. Haha if it wasn't for Phil giving Richard the game. 😂
For real. Talon Gates was the one card that stopped the Mindskimmer attack
@@Llithiss it really wasn't giving the game to Richard. Phil had the same card in hand. He didn't know Richard also had it.
Even though he didn't win, and even though he powered up cards that utilize the graveyard I think he proved his point. The two cards he lost to game one could have just as easily been milled game one. Sometimes they have it, just how it goes. It is a high profile strategy that gets you killed. Any high profile strategy does. Mono blue mill is a little harder to make work, but if Mindskinner was Dimir it would be an easy clap. Many more ways to use and remove your opponent's graveyards. But Crim made them respect it, win or lose. It may not be a an intrinsically smart strategy to play it notoriously over a long game, but it is effective.
Crim is the people’s hero
So let me get this straight, game 1 Crim milled 3 decks down to less than 20 cards over the course of 7 or so turns, then one of his opponents cast a mass reanimate and killed the table.
Checks out.
@@Beowulfgang_Amadeus game two also.
Usually how it goes mill ain’t great if you aren’t killing in one turn
Of course after the archetype episode where the crew minus crim ranked mill as F tier it’s unstoppable 😂
Uhhhhhhh how much of this video did you watch lmao
To be fair without Talon Gates exactly Crim wins that turn.
@@charmandenator5686 Almost. They have 0 cards in library, they still get an upkeep and a chance to respond before attempting to draw a card. Game isn't over until it is.
@@charmandenator5686 also richard only won bc of his whole deck being milled while he has exactly ascent from avernus
@@lesternomo6578 Seth had replenish, eerie ultimatum and Awakening hall in the deck, rich and phil both had ascend. Chances are one of those cards hit the table, compared to an uncounterable removalspell
If crim used Arcane Heist on Seize the Day he couldve won on that same turn instead of using TPro
Talon Gate was nuts
That was a super sick moment, maybe the best of the season, so far!
Just wish it hadn't been spoiled in this week's commander podcast episode 😕
in which no one plays targeted removal and the voltron deck runs away with the game (and is only barely stopped by targeted removal)
was thinking this too, crim built a deck to prey on their specific meta. havent finished yet but that desrves a win
I mean there was a binding of the old gods and a board wipe, he just had the exact answers for the removal they had.
@@andrewb3782 forms of removal in 3 decks isn't alot
@@BludMun you're not wrong. They regularly run far too little removal. But I think "no one plays targeted removal" is a little harsh. As far as these guys are concerned, that was a lot of removal.
This was intensely satisfying to watch after how hard yall went after mill in the pod.
Second game, there wouldn't be a window to Beast Within the Delney where it would prevent the trigger doubling. Either it's after the Avernus and things have already gone on the stack, or it's in response to the Avernus and it'll be brought back alongside the rest
There isn't really. If Delney is on the battlefield when the trigger happened they are going to double since all the trigger go on the stack right away and Delney is on the battlefield when they happen and then if you do it in response as you mentioned that Delney will be reanimated along with everything else.
Been looking forward to this all week.
I love y’all but oh my gosh Crim was on another level of funny in this episode, him being like “I’m not doing damage to you” is just top tier comedy this episode,
On their tier list podcast the crew isn't exactly wrong with mill and these two games were a good showcase for it. Often they do splashy things and can easily become the archenemy. However due to the specific wincon it's hard for them to get it in for the win. Personally I enjoy mill as commander is less about winning and more about doing wild and memorable shit.
Everyone thinks Mill sucks until they get Milled 😂
I love how Crim came out swinging and made everyone sweat after trash talking mill. Haha
Yes we finally get to see Crim play Mindskinner!
A bit of exile graveyard and Mindskinner would be scary
What about a week where you can only use cards that are 0% or less on EDHREC (or 1% or whatever)?
no way seth was talking about how casual players get all butthurt when they get their stuff milled and then he starts the episode off talking about how crim milled his super cool rooms loll
Phil really has some of the prettiest basic lands
I already built Arabella -- she's terrifying -- but I really hope Crim wins this for the memes. Sword of body and mind!!
Shouldn't Crim have been getting to play schemes if you were playing archenemy?
The pure joy I experienced hearing the terror in the face of an archetype the crew "poo-poo'd on" (Tomer Voice) is *chef's kiss*. Pure art.
I wonder if Ascent from Avernus is a meta-include due to mill or a viable card in their decks...
Before game “Mill is a C tier strategy.”
During game [act like Crim is an alpha level threat.]
After game “This is why mill is sus.”
It's a great explanation of their point. Mill decks are very visible and make you a threat. It's very easy to deflect attention away from your own solitaire boardstate and get others to attack the mill player. They do this while also giving their opponents resources in the form of a massive graveyard.
In these games, Crim was a big threat with all players pointing at him and trying to stop him, which forced him to play very defensively. He got most of the way there but his opponents stabilized, stopped him at a critical moment, and won using the massive pile of resources he gave them.
@@andrewb378 This why I always advocate for mill decks to run graveyard hate. It's a good way to stop the resource flow.
Between giggling and cheering on a crab versus panicking over mill, Crim definitely knows how to make mill look "fun" :)
These commander choices fit you guys so well
I love that Crim played mill. I would have been severely disappointed otherwise.
Lessons we take from this episode:
1) Tomer was right when people overestimate how dangerous mill is and that they will target you. Just look at Seth worried that ruin crab was milling 3 each turn.
2) The crew is very weak against voltron decks because they don't have enough interaction. If everyone had interaction Crim would not be able to protect his crab every turn.
3) Mill is indeed bad as it just helped Richard to win the game in the end.
Mill must be coupled with hard yard hate
If crim had done the extra combat spell instead of the T pro he would have won. So this is actually a missplay and not a "mill is bad thing"
Worth noting that Arabella trigger deals damage so her lifelink should’ve gained Richard even more life that second game. The card is CRACKED!
I like how Phil's intro is an infinite combo
Happy to see that both games proved how mill helps massively other decks. Those Ascend from Avernus wouldn't have been nearly as busted without the mill 😅
I Love how Crim's mill deck goes exactly in the same direction of the "Faster games" mantra that he is always preaching on the podcast 😂
I love the balloon man. Seen a lot a fun games with him.
Crim is vibing like I do with nekusar: ofc you don't win, but oh boy the sweet sweet agony 😂
43:30 Seth: Wheres all the wraths?
Little did he know that Crim and Richard were usually the ones who packed all the wraths, and one was on token aggro and the other was on voltron
Small editing note. At 53:40 when Beza was on screen, it appeared right as Crim was talking about Soulless Jailer, so I thought that's why they card popped up instead of it being Phil resolving Beza's trigger. Was just a little confusing due to the timing
Phil plays talon gate
Crim: Look what they need to mimic a fraction of my power
Oeh those junji ito tokens lets go. I made custom sleeves with the slug girl from him for my toxrill deck, very cool
Crim showing why edicts are really good
Honestly Crim won game 1, doesn't matter what the scoreboard said
So Richard using all the graveyard fuel Crim gave him to beat his head in counts as him winning?
I can't believe Phil killed the crab. We thought we knew you.
They were somehow all right about Mill. Crim's deck did work, but he also died to graveyard recursion.
3:54 awakening hall is a oom that brings all your creatures from the graveyard to the battlefield
I love Richard’s face in the thumbnail
Anybody notice Richard saying 'we'? "We play the land. We pass the turn." Richard using the royal we.
I got mindskinner as my pre release promocard im gonna play this no matter what thx Crim
I like the effect you implemented for the TPRO
they said tron was trash but this episode reinforces the fact that this pod would fold to a tron deck lmaoo
I hope Seth plays rooms again cause in this Mill and aggro pod he kinda just got hosed 😂
Also shout out to Richard for returning the Hawk To Hand and ramping with that thing
If only Crim had a Jeweled Lotus, he could have gotten his commander out two turns sooner
Do you mean turn 1 lol. Because it sacs for 3 of one color.
@@jamespowelljr4636he played it on turn 3, what do you think 2 turns earlier means?
Banned tho
@@jamespowelljr4636 Me when 3-2=1
15:30 Not that it matters, as he will never deal the damage, but it actually wouldnt be able to cipher on anything anyway. It phases out the creature so he doesnt control any creatures when he gets to the Cipher line of text.
We will remember Phil killing our beloved 🦀in cold blood.
If anyone needs explaining about “this card/archetype is so good it’s bad” they need to watch this episode. Crim milling Richard into the most insane ascend from avernus you’ll ever see is exactly why everyone says “please fill my graveyard”
The best about mill: you see a lot of cards 😂
Don't need to watch anything else to know I'm in for a good time with Crim REPRESENTING with mill
4:00 lol EXACTLY. Every time they mention milling someone on clash they say "when you mill people it's just giving them access to more cards" but mow all of a sudden everyone's lamenting milling 😂. The way they talk about it on the pod it's like everyone's playing Muldrotha every game
You should have watched the full video before commenting lmao.
@@bennettpalmer1741 lol very possibly true 😂
A sincere thank you to MTGGoldfish for keeping me sane in these “wahhh I need mana crypt I don’t want 11 turn games” skill issue times
Seth: rooms don't have graveyard recursion
Awakening Hall crying in the corner
Voltron Mill already has the best commander, The Wise Mothman says hello
CLASH ON!
I loved Crim this week
I think Crim deck need some kind of gravehate, like Relic of Progenitus.
But was a solid run for the mill deck.
I can't believe crim was getting ignored this whole game because he was playing mill and that turned him invisible, I really think his presence should be acknowledged at least
Yes I'm not happy about the crab. Phil! Reasonsble play but still😂Phil!
The fist game was sweet - Crim showing them for always bashing mill to be bad
Phil, please ask your friends were did they get those tokens, because they are beautiful. Perfect Junji Ito and idea!!!
Mindskinner was very cool, just need some graveyard negation and creatures to block or even Dissipation Field
When phil says "marsh flats", my american ears hear "auschwitz"😅
Can’t even make it past the intro. The narrator has the most intense TH-camr voice I’ve ever heard 😂
3:54 Seth caping there is 100% a room for that
Auton Soldier would go crazy in Crim's deck. Blade of Selves + Mirror Gallery also works but is jank
Not having spot removal isn't a reason why a card is bad, if anything that means mindskinner is cracked
Lmao I'm sorry richard I actually don't like it when weenie burn XD
That’s definitely going in the “MTGGoldfish out of context” collection haha
Not sure if it matters, but couldn't Phil have tapped his commander to make another titan to kill something with the 3 damaqe & block and survive at 1? better yet, respond to the avernus, pinging the commander for 2? saving the table?
Everyone's playing what I expected except Phil. I thought he'd be running Winter
I love this. A Voltron Mill deck becomes archenemy becyase there isnt enough spot removal. But mill is bad. And voltron. And spot removal
Seems like mill is great when nobody runs adequate amounts of removal
They had adequate removal. You just don't always have it. Phase out land is the only thing that stopped Crim from just taking the game that turn
Everyone hitting Crim has nothing to do with mill and everything to do with the text "each opponent". You make yourself archenemy if you bring any commander that has that text.
This is why my pod is filled with Ulamog and such lol
53:10 Why did Seth destroy Delney? They'll come back with the reanimation Spell, or they would have already doubled the triggers :D
33:41 Are these tokens available anywhere? They’re really cool!
I love the check, but he needs more of the “no casting from graveyard” life
Richard wins the 1st game, because he constibuted nothing to stopping Crim. It's sad that "defect attention to others" + "play solitare" is actually the best strategy.
He cast a board wipe but crim saved his commander. Calm down
@@skykur 😃
I dont destroy stuff unless I absolutely need to, I always convince the other players to take care of my problems for me and then win after lol
@@skykur He casted a board wipe that send everyone into oblivion against a voltron deck who is stacked with cards to avoid sweepers with untapped lands.
Phil just gave Richard the W because he actually did something right.
Spoiler warning jeez rude.