Thank you for validating my frustration with Oathbringer!! The guilt and shame I have felt from not loving it have been huge! I seriously started questioning whether I was just not smart enough to read it!! Lol Keep being unapologetically yourself!!
I feel like the Sanderson fandom does not like criticism, generally. I have expressed my problems with the book to find only loathing from friends. Happy others agree.
Yes. Most criticisms are patronizing told, "not everybody has to like the book" in Reddit. The whole Kholinar/Shadesmar storyline dragged on for too long. It just felt sanderson wanted to showcase the world more than the story. In his lectures, his beta readers told him, the whole shadesmar plot was moving without any end goal. Sanderson then made a change which implied Kaladin felt it in his instincts and wanted to go to the city where Dalinar will open the perpendicularity. But Kal Has no solid reason to go there other than a good climax for us. But somehow this change satisfied his beta readers. How? "Our hero wants to go there. Alright that's enough for me" It still baffles me. His beta readers need to be more strict and criticize more.
What happens when someone is critical of Malazan because it is too complex for them though... Many problems he has in this review come from lack of understanding which is fine just like it's fine to be critical Malazan for that... The problem is it isn't presented that way. There is so much context and fact left out of this review because he missed it. Andy missing things is probably the best negative he could have came out and given instead of trying to seem knowledgeable and blaming the author for not showing and only telling (FALSE) To be clear I agree with a lot of what he said about the pacing.... But this is to be expected when it seems like the point of this book is to flesh out world building. It's my least fav of the three for sure.
@@brettmurray2473 yeah he had valid points. But yeah I love how people act like they wouldn’t do the same if a book they liked was criticized. Andy admitted that he skimmed a lot in other SA reviews. A lot of his points were good, but yeah he does seem to be giving an intentional counter critique and at some times it is just an inaccurate take.
@@brettmurray2473 I've harshly criticised Malazan myself (i respect it a lot, but prefer Bakker), especially the latter books; pace, structure, complexity and character altogether. But Erikson always pays off with two things - extremely well built theme consistency (i would argue he is the best theme-driven writer i've stumbled across) and carefuly constructed plot which climaxes in some of the most enjoyable endings in the genre. Also, yes, it is needlessly complex. Some people will hate this. But it is done so with purpose, Erikson wanted to show every side of the conflict, present it as objective as possible. It is completely valid if somebody finds it difficult to read, just as valid as finding the huge chunks of Stormlight where absolutely nothing happens as boring to get through. Though they are written with no value whatsoever other that making the books longer. Don't imitate Wheel of time, please. The difference for me personally, however, is that Sanderson... doesn't pay off with theme. In fact, i'm not sure he even knows his themes, or if he acknowledges them as important point of his stories. His outlines are incredible but they overwhelm the story and don't let the characters grow enough, if at all; Erikson lacks solid characterization too, but he fights back with pulling tons of thematic and philosophic strings to flesh them out externally in the name of the general direction of the story. Sanderson lacks both characterization (or is at best weak) and thematic idea. He relies way too much on a before-hand plan he has made and refuses to change it during the writing process, even if it goes out of character. This results in him deciding actually not to build up his characters in detail, and therefore they turn into blunt plot devices. I also prefer Erikson's prose BY A HUGE MARGIN. Lastly, show don't tell is a valid argument too, it is a field which Erikson actually takes too seriously with not explaining at all, while Sanderson completely ignores it and I hate this.
@@hopeprevails3213 I think you make some great points there, I've found that I personally value theme in books very highly and with Sanderson I just can't see the themes he's going for or if he's going for them at all. If someone asked me "what is Stormlight trying to say about the world?" I would have no idea what to say where with Malazan it's clear what the themes are and it gives you moral quandaries to grapple. I wasn't feeling that with Stormlight.
A lot of good points, but I don’t agree with all of them. I do agree that many things you point out seem to be examples where plot lines are lazily written without any payoff. But some things I was okay with. Like, shallan’s split personality thing doesn’t need to be akin to multiple personality disorder in our world; to me I thought it was clear it came from her powers. When she uses them she sort of actually becomes the characters she creates. Also, I was okay with not knowing Dalinar’s wife better. I think the point was Dalinar himself didn’t really know her. Anyway, great review!
With all respect to Sanderson and his fans, I agree with Andy completely. His Way of kings was good but it has been downhill so far. Sanderson books are mainly for amateur fans with bad character and horrible handling of themes. The books lack depth, even though they can be fun. The exception is Way of kings. That book is very very good because it is grounded and has some excellent storytelling. Now the following books are basically fluff, all spectacle and basically zero substance. Andy I completely agree with your views. It can feel lonely when the fan community is out for you coz you just see the flaws of their favorite books. Thank you for being brave enough to be brave enough to voice your opinions. All the major booktubers are afraid of saying bad about Oathbringer. Ot sucks and even Daniel greene succumbed to Sanderson fan hate
I definitely don't have as many complaints about this book, but it was for sure my least favorite of the three so far. I think my biggest complaint is Shallan's storyline. I completely agree with you on that one. I don't even understand who Shallan actually is at this point so I can't possibly determine if her character progression is well executed or not going forward. I hope, for one, that she doesn't create any more personalities in the next book and that we get a better understanding of how her Dissociative Identity Disorder works and manifests. But honestly at this point I'm scared about every character arc because this was definitely a downgrade from WoR lol
This is a pretty amazing review considering the Sanderson fan community is such a blatant echo chamber. I remember reading Oathbringer when it came out and just being let down, but after reading Malazan (currently on reapers gale) I just have no excitement for the series anymore.
Malazan fandom is also an echo chamber. It’s frustrating because I want to be involved in it but you can’t talk about Malazan without them talking about how they think it makes other authors look like shit and it dwarfs everything else, going so far as to insult other authors. Every fandom is an echo chamber of praise but none are so vehemently opposed to seemingly every other piece of created literature
@@disorientedkiwi7984 : I agree. On Reddit at least, r/Malazan is a huge echo chamber. On r/Stormlight_Archive, I regularly see people criticizing Sanderson. On r/Malazan only the most fawning praise is considered acceptable. I recently posted a critical comment about the role of female soldiers in Malazan and people told me to "go read something else". 🙄
Man, I was pretty hyped about the unmade because they just sounded cool, but they really did feel like minibosses throughout oathbringer. I love the comparison of ghostbloods to a sidequest, it really do be that way
I honestly don’t get the issue with adolin killing sadeas, Sadeas was evil and was plotting against his family. What do you want to happen to adolin for doing the right thing ? I’m literally confused ? Is it that you like the prise where the good continue to be passive and allow the bad guys to live and to continue to strike against them ?
It's almost like he didn't think too much about the book and flew though it 🤔 wonder if he would like Malazan as much if he flew through that without thought too.
Adolin kills Sadeas...then spends a good chunk of Oathbringer agonizing about it, finally tells everyone about it for them to shrug ot off is quintessential Sanderson melodrama. Literally this type of shit in all his books.
Yep... I'm done. I listened to wor and thought ok this seems all right and a bit of a step up. Then ob left me empty. I don't see myself ending this series let alone the first arc
Adolin never agonized about it though. Not once. He mentioned internally he felt good about it and would do it again, and said it every time. He just didn’t want to reveal He was the one who did it or got caught. But once again in the grand scheme of things, Sadeas becomes irrelevant. The story would’ve been completely different if he had been forthcoming about the murder in the beginning.
I’ll say this, not every book or series will land with everyone. It won’t resonate to the point of deeper connection. That being said, it’s an installment, and not everything is meant to be explained in this book. Some answers come later. I really enjoyed it, I felt like it was long, but it helped develop the story to mature sufficiently, and so I had no issue with it.
Spoiler for OB below Yes I whole heartedly agree with your assessment of Moash. I just don't hate him. I have seen worse characters in Asoiaf, Malazan, etc. I totally side with him killing the king. Elokhar also having a redemption will just be a repeat of Dalinar's storyline.
This is quite well reasoned and level headed for a rant review. I'll fight any haters (as a stormlight defender lol) I need to do a word search on my ecopies to see how many times "feels wrong" shows up. Its pretty prevalent in the series as a whole haha
Thank you for this!! I literally got in an arguement with a collegue at a conference about this book.. specfically about how sloppily and borderline irresponsibly it commentates on real life social issues. I also think Brandon Sanderson seems like a great guy, which is why I wanted to like it so badly.
I think you nailed it with the video game connection. This was the book that made me realize Sanderson has a video game conception of reality. Almost all his work operates under video game logic. Even when he tries to add moral-ethical complexity to his stories they are presented with as much nuance as a dialogue wheel in an rpg.
I just want to be here for you in these tough times. You are clearly going through something that has led you down a dim, dark path toward hate. Do not give in! There is light at the end of the tunnel and I will be here to shepherd you back toward the light! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY ANDY!
Andy has some really insightful points. Atleast he tries to show his point by making efforts in his video. Unlike you riding on your high horse, without using an ounce of effort and just showing baseless lambaste. You couldn't even type your points. Just coz someone doesn't like your FAVORITE book doesn't make him wrong. Oathbringer sucks. Be a fan. Good for you. But respect who have different opinion than yours
Some authors care about them and meaning more than others. I feel that Sanderson likes cool video gamey/marvel-esque ideas and stories, where the themes arise from a narrative, rather than being the reason for it
You make some good criticisms of OB. I personally loved OB because how much it introduces. How much depth it provides to the world. Yes the plot and characters suffer because of this as Brandon tries to juggle multiple different viewpoints and plot lines. There were a few things that we got some so-so payoffs on (Sadeas’ murder and Heleran’s murder) and I agree with you there. Although I think the dark eyes v light eyes debate isn’t over. It might come to a head somewhere in Venli’s plot in the next book hopefully, but I don’t think that animosity is dissolved. In fact, because there are no more parish men, I hope to see that come closer to the forefront of the populace because they need someone to do their menial tasks. I also hope that RoW tightens up a little bit, but it’s entirely possible it could be similarly disjointed because of the many viewpoints Edit: also to comment on the Unmade: that’s one of those hidden details you have to figure out from some of the epigraphs. Even then you might only know a little bit. And there’s 9 of them
For me, Oathbringer was ruined by Shadesmar. It's the single most clumsy and uninspiring imaginative construct I've ever had to suffer through in a book written for entertainment. They whole thing is just cringey.
Great review! Some points on which I quite agree: • Jasnah: Seriously, I don't understand why she's so popular when she hasn't shown anything useful yet. I honestly thought that after her experience in WoR here she was going to have a more important role, but basically in this book she becomes Urithiru's goalkeeper. • The final: I remember when I was reading it, I didn't really care what was happening or to whom, at times I felt totally disconnected. Which I did not understand, but it was probably due to what you pointed out, that a lot was happening but there was no depth or tension necessary, only things happened (shit happens time). The only moment that I liked was the 'YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN', but being the only one I could end up taking it as a flash and nothing more. • Moash: The hatred towards him is exaggerated. In fact, in this case, he seems to be a relatively more coherent character with his ideas and development. And ... in that sense, Moash > Kaladin(or Syl? With her/his particular idea of honor). Also, as you say, he didn't do something extremely evil either. Although I must admit that coming from reading ASoIaF or Malazan, few things are going to be really evil to me (?
I adore Brandon Sanderson. I think he is a very nice, lovely guy, doing fantastic job with his lectures, videos, interviews and popularization of fantasy in general... I believe he has some of the most intiguing ideas out of the modern fiction authors, but oh boy, I just can't stand his writing. The Stormlight was pretty overhyped right from the beginning in my opinion, mainly because this was a "big fat book series that is not a trilogy" from the "king of the genre" Sanderson and therefore it absolutely had to be epic and the best fantasy evaaah! The first two books I honestly found meh, but there were some good parts in them, mainly idea-wise. I despise his writing style and think of it as way too simple and not at all worthy of more than a 500 page book, and when it comes to Stormlight, it bleeds. Bad. It becomes repetitive and jarring to read after a very short while. Not to mention Brandon needlessly prolongues everything so as to make the books ridiculously long. There are so many pages with no essence whatsoever in them that I can't understand how people enjoy this, honestly! And the countless interludes and flashbacks, Jesus Christ! I would argue Mistborn has more context and "stuff" inside a single entry of the trilogy than does the entire Stormlight series so far. And Oathbringer is the worst. I was so disappointed from this book, that I haven't read anything by Sanderson since. The guy seriously can't handle more than a couple POVs and storylines. He struggles to focus on what's important, the story just stops, waddles around aimlessly and turns into a useless slog. The characters, outside the main bunch, are pieces of cardboard who do what the plot demands of them (in the once-in-a-5-chapters moment when the plot actually reappears). From the main characters, I like only Kaladin. Shallan is atrocious. Dalinar is mad for the sake of being mad; I've never actually found the "deep dive" of mental illness in the books... eminent, as everybody emphasizes. He is just a crazy old man (also a cheating bastard with his killed brother's wife on behalf of his own dead wife, what the fuck?). My final point will be extremely controverial, but for me Brandon is one of the reasons hard magic is overwhelming the fantasy genre, which is just... miserable. Killing the wonder and awe of actual sorcery, replacing it with pseudotechnology. Seriously, give them guns, don't ruin magic.
did.... did you really read Oathbringer? While I agree that its the slowest of them all so far saying the side characters are pieces of cardboard is just plainly not true Dalinar in no point is portrayed as mad. Seriously what were you reading? He is portrayed as a terrible person Personally as a person who is suffering from depression I do find the portrayal of Kaladin´s very close to my personal experience (except for the battle trauma and magic of course) Finally kinda unfair of you to put on Brandon the blame for people writing hard magic systems Its like saying its GRR Martin´s fault that people began writing edgy fantasy Or that it was Tolkien´s fault that people began writing knock offs of his work Its never the OG creators fault that people decide to copy them without a second thought
Great video Andy! This was cathartic to watch. I REALLY did not like Oathbringer after thinking books 1 & 2 were brilliant for the most part. Like you said at the end reading this has zapped my energy for this series. I still want to continue but I am much less enthusiastic going into books 4 & 5. Hope you enjoy the rest of your day!
I honestly have to agree. The Dalinar stuff is honestly so good and is so perfectly done. It’s easily the best thing about it. But almost everything else falls flat. Things that are set up aren’t followed through (Kaladin’s realization that the Parshmen may rightly be angry), and those that do get wrapped up are wrapped up in such an unsatisfying way (the aftermath of Adolin killing Sadeus). I liked Way of Kings despite pacing issues, and I thought Words of Radiance was phenomenal, but I felt like Oathbringer just dropped the ball. I haven’t read RoW yet, but all I can hope is that it gets better from here.
I know I'm a bit late to the party on this, but really appreciated your review. I loved the Dalinar parts of Oathbringer for the most part, but kind of struggled with some of the other bits. Shallan is probably my least favorite character and I think just not as compelling as the others. I'm not sure if you have read Rhythm of War yet, but I really do feel like Sanderson needs a more confident/competent editor. I would argue that some of the content from these books, particularly some of the side characters, could be split up into smaller novellas similar to Edgedancer and the pacing of the main novels would be way better. I wonder if he is feeling pressure to keep the story to 10 books as promised and therefore is putting everything he can into each book, but I think the pacing of the books is suffering right now and I'm wondering if the trend will reverse in stormlight 5 and 6.
Regarding female characters with relationships: What about Shallan/Jasnah? Sylphrena/Kaladin? Venli/Eshonai? Or even Shallan/Sebarial? I like "Oathbringer", and I also loved your rant! ♥
I had the same problems. And I couldn't stand the running flashbacks b4, but now it's insufferable and I don't care about them. And they half exist to conveniently imprint on why a character will make a decision
I second this notion. Excellent critique. Not a whole lot of people who are willing to see passed their own bias on this series to be honest about Sanderson’s prose or Deus ex’s. Highly appreciate this review! Fingers crossed on Rhythm of War
@@guillermodorado8042 yes because something foreshadowed thousands of pages in advance is a Deus ex... Keep looking down upon those who like to read such drivel, looks good on you. None of the critiques in this were handled with any care. It's a 30 min video and all I got is that he didn't understand what was going on because a lot was happening, the prose are simple, and the MIDDLE book in a 5 book arc of a 10 book series didn't tie things up neatly.
Thanks, Andy. You have hit a set of points that I felt but never did really put together. To be honest I'm a big fan of Sanderson and Stormlight (have spent many hours editing and adding to the Coppermind, for e.g.) , and overall rate Stormlight and Oathbringer higher than you do. However, do I acknowledge the weaknesses you have highlighted. For me, being so deep into the fandom I think I get a lot of enjoyment from the little details of Cosmere connectedness or little hints across times and locations. That seems to paper over the negatives enough to keep me engaged. In that regard, the massive page count and multiple storylines are seen as a positive (more detail to sift through!) - the depth gets added slowly across books and series. Still, it means that if you're not spending hours digging into the minutia of the Cosmere, there are significant weaknesses in this book and series. Kudos for sticking your neck out. :)
I wasnt happy with Oathbringer and just couldnt put it all into words. I guess you did that for me cuz that pretty much sums up how I felt. I didnt hate it but your points were dead on with my feelings.
Hi there, just wanted to say congrats on hitting 1k subs! I found your channel a few weeks ago, and it's become one that I most look forward to watching. Love your perspectives and analysis!
"... Because of the massive success, there's not as much editing as there should be." Who would honestly want to edit his books? His books would get cut in half, and it would still lack decent pacing or meaningful impact. But I just bounce clean off his style. ... I think the people who like his books just kind of turn off their brains and go on auto pilot. They must treat it like a cruise through a fantasy world. But his writing is exhausting. And consistently inspires a feeling of me dragging my skull across concrete.
Another amazing review! You're making me struggle to remember why I loved this book! Pacing issues and the scattered finale made this my least favorite of the three. Can't disagree with your criticisms, but I'm sure Cosmere experts will come at you with counterarguments. Yes to wanting male/female friendships! Why can't that be a thing? While I find Sanderson's romantic tension between characters very cringey, I was anticipating greater payoff when Shallan learned that Kaladin killed her brother or with that whole love triangle situation. You made a strong point about many lost opportunities. I'm still hoping Adolin will face greater consequences for murdering Sadeas in Rhythm of War. I personally love the Wit more than any other character in this series. Strange opinion, I know.
Excellent insights, as always! I remain respectful of Sanderson’s achievements in this series, but I do agree with you that Oathbringer is the weakest installment thus far. More than usual, some editing was needed. Thanks, Andy - very enjoyable analysis!
Plot too slow at many different points. 100% agree. Part 5 was the only part where the pacing felt above average to me. You’re right on this being an overall good representation on mental health and addiction overall, but a misrepresentation on multiple personality disorder with Shallan (if that is what he is doing.) It’s possible that the powers Shallan has could lead to personality disorders we’ve never even seen before. There has been some research into what personality disorders are more common among spies/double agents (which IMO, is the most similar real world situation to what Shallan is in), and there can often be a mix of things like PTSD and some other personality disorders, though I don’t feel like symptoms would manifest in the way they did in Shallan. Interesting sidenote: I have a Psych Bachelor’s degree, and some of the Psychiatrists I met said he didn’t believe Multiple Personality Disorder is real (he said this in the context of an ethical argument of saying you shouldn’t see patients with conditions you don’t think are real.) Jeff at The Fowler Project would be an interesting person to ask, but he has not read SA yet. And yes, I didn’t like her multiple personalities overall either. Shallan was my favorite in the first two books, but this book she was very meh. If felt like she was going through middle book development: problems used to give the character something to do when the author doesn’t know what to do with them. This is also shown with her food stealing. I agree, super weak. I did love the Wit parts here too.
I actually loved the reveal that the humans were the colonizers of this world. That was one of my favorite parts. I think it is paralleled in this world with the current situation of Native Americans and how they are treated on our continent, and how we learn about the founding of our country in grade school, and how that often leaves out the oppression and borderline genocide of Native Americans. However, if Sanderson doesn’t do anything with this plotline in RoW, this will be a massive missed opportunity. There needs to be major truth and reconciliation in both Stormlight, and in the real world. I completely agree. Where the F was Jasnah all Fing book. Super sad not to see more Jasnah. We got so many perspectives in this book, how did we not get Jasnah’s. Again, I have not started RoW or even dawnshard, but I really hope she gets some actual time. And yes, I was super interested in goals and motives of different factions in the first two books, and trying to figure everything like that out. But in this book, Odium is just a cartoonish evil dude, and the other stuff matters a lot less. We don’t need everything to be revealed to us, but I would have liked more of that to be fleshed out. I’m kind of hesitant saying we need more of this or more of that, because I felt like we already had so many different small puzzle pieces and sidearcs. I actually liked Evie, pretty much what I was expecting. I also liked Moash as a character, but I thought his character arc as it relates to part 3 was super predictable. I was underwhelmed by the part 3 climax, especially in comparison to the other part 3 climaxes. As far as the love story goes, it was overall meh. I don’t think it took up too many pages. The small part I liked about the love story was Syl talking to Kaladin about Shallan. I found it relatable as a single guy mostly because Syl is a child, and sometimes kids wonder why a relationship should not/does not/cannot work. And a lot of times you don’t have an answer for them beyond they love someone else/they are in a relationship with someone else, and if you have been around inquisitive children, they will ask still ask “why?” I feel for Kaladin in that moment, because I’m just an awkward dude who doesn’t know how to explain those things to kids either.
Love that you love the end of the shadow rising and I felt like I spent way to much time trying to get there that I didn’t enjoy it once I got there and that seems like what happened to you with OB. Which although now on re-read I have WAY fewer complaints I do agree that it is too long. I will say the thing you said with Shallan I always thought the ambiguity was cause from her perspective she doesn’t really know what is happening either and I am really excited that in the acknowledgements for RoW he talks about a personality disorder specialist who helped him with this next one! Hopefully this next one will be more full-filling for you, I know I am having a blast so far, but I love this series a whole bunch 😆
I had Sanderson hyped up to me like he was the most prolific writer of our time, that he was the Tolkien of our generation, that I absolutely HAD to read his stuff! So I started reading him, and I was like, "...really?" No doubt there are some things he does that he is very good at. The sheer volume of writing that he has released is worth noting. But I do not like him! I do not find his stories compelling, his characters do not grab my attention, and the pacing of his stories is so criminally slow that they constantly lose my attention. It took me about eight months to get through The Way of Kings because I had to force myself to keep coming back to it to get through it. All in all, I don't think Sanderson is even half the writer people hype him up to be. I personally think the Sanderson hype train is going to run out of track in the not too distant future, and he will be all but completely forgotten after that.
It took me 6 months to get through this book and I just figured my expectations were too high after WoR. But every point you made just clicked like yup this is why
@@malazisland300 I have not read it yet. I only finished OB a couple months before the release, so I was a little burnt out after trudging through that. Now after hearing all the mixed reviews and people comparing it to OB I'm even more hesitant to dive in 😬 I'll get there tho, and luckily I have plenty of time before book 5 comes
I wasn't really a fan of Oathbringer as well. I think it started with a huge hurdle because all of the main conflicts were solved at the end of the second book. There is always a boring restart to ramp up new conflict in fantasy, but it was especially bad in this book because everything was resolved at the start. Did you read Warbreaker by chance? I felt like that added some interesting elements to this book 3.
you know what I wonder some times about people? I wonder if in the writing of Fellowship of the Ring to Return of the King, whether people were sitting there acting like spoilt children complaining that things seem to be difficult and hard to get around. You know, like the whole huge amount of time we left Frodo after being stabbed by Shelob in Two Towers and then had to wait nearly a whole year to learn the end and having to watch things just progressively get worse. If my subtlety isn't getting through to you, I'll explain it simpler. the story isn't even slightly over with and complaining that things seem unfulfilled is stupid. Try and look at the positives than the negatives, your arguments would make sense if this was the final book in the series, but luckily we've still got 6 books left in the series of The Stormlight Archive.
Love the review. Very brave of you to stand up to the tyrannical Sanderson fanbase while your channel is just starting out. This guys approach to class and power is incredibly problematic both in SA and Mistborn. Particularly as it is played out through racialized logic. He has a habit of portraying both sides as equally wrong. He spent the last two books of the original Mistborn trilogy trying to justify Elend's power grab and suppression of Skaa rebellion as justifiable because he gave the Skaa population a 3rd of the vote while maintaining class stratification. If Sanderson switched up the power dynamics in his stories from light eye vs Dark eye and Skaa vs ruling class to something white skin vs black skin division, his simple ass stories would become glaringly difficult to defend.
@@n0zenzur Well yes, I try to write complex stories with complex characters and themes; if I write the way Sanderson does, I would feel extremely dissatisfied.
@@disorientedkiwi7984 there are 0 Parshmen POV characters in all of SA and only 3 Parshendi. Meanwhile he focuses on the humans who used them as slaves for generations and are now fighting against them. Far from "fantastically"
Genuinely curious.. do you want to continue reading and reviewing Sanderson because it's interesting, or because he's just one of the biggest names in fantasy right now? I very much appreciate your thoughts and insights - Sanderson as a writer holds no appeal to me, so it's hard to feel motivated to read anything more by him.
Great video! I wasn't sure what it is about the book that bothered me, but you summed it up very well. There's so many things I'm confused about or was disappointed with... [Spoilers] -Shallan: I thought she was cool after creating veil to do the dirty work, but at the end, I was so confused. Shallan was there, along with Veil and Radiant, and they were interacting with each other, which is so confusing cuz they're the same person. -the love triangle: I was expecting more interactions between Shallan and Kaladin. But they basically just made glances at each other.. they should've been developed as friends from the very start -Renarin: how exactly did he bond a "broken" spren, is he actually a knight's radiant, what exactly did he do to betray them? -Jasnah: I'm curious about her the most, I think she's so cool, but we don't get to know much about her and her experience in shadesmar. Also, we didn't even get to see her reaction after knowing her brother died.. -how did Dalinar suddenly get god-like powers? I know he resisted Odium, but suddenly he made the portal to shadesmar?? Where did that new power come from? -Kaladin: he's my favorite character, but I agree, he needs more in the plot . I still hope he gets a romance in the future books.. Regardless, I did enjoy it and kept wanting to know what happens next.
@@malazisland300 yes I agree. I thought her moment with Wit was beautiful when he told her that she can be all 3 personalities as one person. But that moment went to waste cuz Shallan never resolved the issue and still kept the separate personalities at the end of the book
Love your Stormlight reviews! Despite really liking the first 2 books this one was a bit of a drag. Oh and I'm not sure I'll ever forgive Sanderson for making Kaladin somewhat subservient to Dalinar, completely crippled Kaladin as a character, never mind the obvious connotations that Sanderson never really deals with. I'd love for Kaladin to get out from under Dalinar and forge a path for himself, I thought that him going to visit his family etc at the start of this book would be the start of that journey....
i have to say i really agree, but there are a few points i'd add: 1.) there is a huge and sudden power jump for several characters, everything regarding the final battle was just characters becoming supersaiyans in seconds 2.) the recreanse thing was very underwhelming. didn't really understand why that was such a huge deal. fun rant, wish i liked it more because the way of kings is in my top 10 for sure, hoping for future better books. final thoughts, this felt like book 2 in mistborn for me. i hope he picks up it up like he did with the rest of the mistborn books after book 2
Hey man I appreciate your opinions. I agreed with a lot of them tbh, though I probably liked the book better as a whole than you did. Definitely my least favorite Stormlight book. The Kholinar part and the ending both went on WAY too long, and I don’t say that about books very often. Shallan’s mental health situation was pretty undercooked, especially the way it was resolved (though from what I’ve seen it looks to be getting way more fleshed out in RoW so we’ll see). I also thought the Kaladin parts dragged way too much and were repetitive. However, I disagree in that I think the payoff was ALMOST worth it. The part where Kaladin is watching his friends kill each other without being able to stop it is such a heart rending character moment for him that I see exactly what Sanderson was going for and really like the idea. I also think the Elhokar death on the whole was extremely stupid and probably my least favorite part of the book. His entire character arc in that book with him “getting better” and all just felt so clearly like an attempt to make me care for someone who was gonna die (because like elhokar is just not unique enough to become another main character, so what else can happen to him, you know?). Pretty much everything else I liked though, there’s something about SAnderson’s worldbuilding that makes me very forgiving to him lmao.
It would be interesting to hear your critics of MBotF elements that you don't like. If there any of course. As for Sanderson, all my suspicions about his writing style that I got after reading Elantris confirmed in this video. Not my cup of tea.
I agree. The Malazan fandom is a much worse echo chamber than the Sanderson fandom. I would love to hear some intelligent criticism from someone who has finished the series.
It's always sad and a bit annoying that the more successful a writer gets the bigger their books get even when they shouldn't. That's what always makes me hesitant to tackle a series like this. I have very little patience for sloggy parts of a book haha
I liked Oathbringer but it's my least favorite in the series so far. There were A LOT of terms, names and concepts that was intruduced in this book that just went over my head and could've been explained better like "The Unmade, The fused, Skybreakers, the different knight radiance factions etc. People criticise Robert Jordan for being repetitive when it comes to explaining the rules of his magic system in WoT, that he repeats the rules again and again but I feel like Sanderson has the opposite problem in Stormlight Archives: He will explain his magic system once briefly in passing and then never again and the reader is expected to memorise all of this. I really struggled with this.
Andy! Just, literally just finish the book & had to check out your spoiler rant section. I liked Oathbringer! Dalinar might be my favorite character & I enjoyed learning about his past & seeing him come to grips with that in the present. But I think your criticism were well thought, well delivered and respectable. I can agree with some of them. There's ALOT of moving pieces & they don't move perfectly for the most cohesive story. Still excited to read Dawnshard & ROW! Looking forward to more of your vids bro!
I agree with a lot of this. I just feel like it needed more editing. It was confusing. And i think he was working on Jordan’s books when he wrote this one-could be wrong but that might be part of the reason why it felt chaotic
I like Sanderson but I don't love Sanderson and I think that's the problem with his the cult of BranSan. I wish I could put it a nicer way but I can't when people read his books they talk about it like it's life changing religious experience sometimes that bothers me. I love the first era Mistborn it lived put o it's hype. So I checked out the Starlight Archive and I'll be honest TWOK was difficult I loved anything with Kaladin and Bridge Four, Dalinar shone sometimes, Shallan was like kill me now this is boring. WOR I recently finished and fuck that was chore and half it took me a year to get through it because I was so bored with it, Shallan finally get's interesting about half way through. Dalinar gets less interesting and over all I was just done I've got the other 2 hardbacks but I'm done with this series I think, I can't get into it's like going past the third date with a girl your one like date sixteen and your still waiting for something to happen. Your like come on bb you know what I want. I genuinely don't like being this negative, but Sanderson fans are so negative about other authors particularly Martin because of his extreme boost in popularity thanks to GOT show, however Brandon does not write emotion anywhere near level of Martin. The over use of fantasy sounding names (Yes I know it's fantasy but still) there are way too many names like Elokar, dashakar, Vagmaro, Telaris, Ihis, Urmath. They are not any of the names in the book but they're similar and it's hard sometimes to tell if they're talking about a city or a person and the names just feel overdone fantasy like too much sugar in your coffee or salt in your soup. There is zero tolerance for honest heartfelt criticism in the cult of BranSan they just trash you for it, I 100% saying these books are over rated beyond belief and are really boring for the most part. The sad thing is I think with a really good editor and at least 300 to 400 pages of the first 2 books removed they could be really good. Obviously there's something in ther that keeps me coming back, I do think they just don't want their page count because I've read books that long before but they manage to stay interesting. With starlight when you get to those last chapters your just bored by that stage.
I don't think Sanderson is a "bad" writer, his lectures on writing are marvelous, and he does seems to be a nice person... But to be honest I definitely think that all the HUGE praise and admiration and reverence and adotaion he gets from the fantasy reading community should belog to Ursula K Le Guin or Robbin Hobb (just mentioning two examples), who are EXTRAORDINARY writers, with BEAUTIFUL prose, WONDERFUL ideas and INSANELY talented... Sanderson might be a good fantasy writer, but Hobb and Le Guin are some of the finest Writers, beyond any label, and we fantasy lovers are SO lucky they happened to love fantasy as well.
I tend to agree with you, and think that part of Sanderson's success is his accessibility. His writing is simple and accessible, his 'hard magic' systems are something that seems very popular currently, and he draws a lot on superhero/comic elements that fit with the glut of superhero movies/television in the culture. He's like a good pop band- his songs might be pretty poppy and mainstream, but he does have talent.
I completely respect your opinion even though I don't agree. While OB is my least favorite of the Stormlight books I still really liked it. Also, I am one of those WoT fans who doesn't mind the slog. Is it perfect? No, but there are so many good things to find upon reread. I'm in the middle of a WoT reread and just finished book 10 and enjoyed my time. Book 11 is up next after I finish Rhythm of War and a few other books.
Interesting thoughts. I know you've been struggling with this series more broadly, but I'm going to mildly disagree on the promises not being met. This is subject to change based on the follow-ups to this series, but given that this is book 3 of a projected 10 book series, I don't feel like all these specific promises you have mentioned need to be addressed in this book. If Lighteyes/Darkeyes discrimination is never brought up again, I think it will be bad, but I don't expect something to be wrapped up midway through a series. But the larger bedrock narrative questions should be doled out over time. On your spoiler thoughts (specifically on the colonialism) the only point I'd like to bring up is that, given the Stormlight Archive's relationship to the Cosmere, I'm going to assume that the humans came from another planet and colonized Roshar, potentially worldhoppers and that they took over the Parshmen. What I see Sanderson doing here is try to address our world's sordid history of Social Darwinism and Colonialism from the perspective of those who colonized indigenous peoples. Given America's cultural genocide of Native Americans that goes largely unaddressed, I see the hegemony of Kholinar having to reckon with its role as imperialists several thousand years ago as an inflection point for its culture. Now the question will be trying to figure out how to live with the fact that they've profited off of exploitation of native people. While it's not something that's addressed deeply - which is a fair criticism - I don't think the idea comes out of nowhere and has plenty of basis in historical fact. Granted, we'll have to see where Sanderson takes it, and your critiques are solid, but it's similar to how Malazan addresses Capitalism and its excesses through Lether: obliquely referencing the real world to comment on it. Cheers
I completely agree with all the points you made, this was a chore to read and even the fast paced end battle was really hard to follow. The thing killing this series most for me though is Shallan, I dislike her and the whole 3 people in one thing its very jarring. There was a moment in shadesmar where I thought it would get resolved but sadly that wasn't the case
OB spoilers For the proto bridge 4s in Kaladins story that wasn't just throwing the same thing at Kaladin again because he was lazy. It was about Kaladin realizing that the us vs them mentality he had as a soldier was a lie.
This made me very glad I didn’t continue with the series. Hearing you talk about these books makes me realize how much of them I have forgotten. I feel like my brain is repressing those memories because of trauma lol. Great review. I’ll be intrigued to hear your RoW thoughts.
So reading the responses the WoT vs. Malazan debate is passe and we have moved to Sanderson vs. Erickson and whether to blame the author for not explaining vs. Reader not understanding. For full disclosure I have never read Sando and am really not that interested. Am planning to read Eye of the World on general principle but likely won't get much farther.
ok gotta apreciate the irony here 16:10 "Its actually the humans who conquered Roshar [...] and we are supposed to root for humanity?" _is literally gringo_
Only watched positive views. When you held up note pad with list of negatives, oh man, I can't 🥺🥺 hopefully RoW is better reading (I'm assuming you're moving forward with next before deciding to drop off) Always appreciate your videos and thoughts (not this one 😅)
I'm pretty happy I stopped at Words of Radiance, I agree that in general the series felt like it didn't utilize the budget of the page count where major events happen. Do you think that you were too generous with your ratings for the previous books or is OB really a standout of the three? I didn't jive with Sanderson's style so I've accepted he's not an author for me.
I felt Oathbringer was the weakest though I still thought it was very enjoyable. WoR was legitimately one of the best fantasy books I’ve ever read though, almost certainly in the top 5 among books like A Storm of Swords, Lord of the Rings, Memories of Ice and Twig by Wildbow.
@@disorientedkiwi7984 I wish I liked it as much as all the books you mentioned since I've read and enjoyed all that you mentioned minus Twig, I do think Sanderson isn't an author for me. There were some great moments in WoR but the overall cohesion of the overarching narrative doesn't really click for me.
@@AndySmithMN Hey out of curiosity have you read First Law? I feel like they’re the kind of books you’d really like. They have some outstanding character writing
I just finished GOTM and am now on DG in MBOTF.... It's now clear to me you value complex prose VERY highly and you struggle with digesting a simplistic prose style. The fact that you can't handle all of the things going on at once, want instant payoff, complain about length, how long it takes to get to things, and non obvious character motivations...yet hold Malazan in such high regard tells me you didn't actually give this series the attention it requires. There are a lot of juicy details you can pick up when you read this series in between the lines. That is If you're willing to take the some of the same amount of effort you would towards MBOTF. IMO the density of this series requires an iron clad memory or note taking. (Not quite on the level of MBOTF but in the same vein) I also see SA era 1 similar to MBOTF as a continual story, or one "book" you could say. I think you'd be surprised how many of you complaints would be remedied if you viewed it through this lens. I'm going through Malazan and I have to hold faith that the many questions I have will be awnswered a number of books down the line... And you can't do the same for this series? It seems like you just chalk up any question you have in SA to bad writing.
EDIT: This comment contains some Oathbringer spoilers, so if you're not about that life turn back now. I enjoyed Oathbringer, but thinking back on it it's almost entirely because of Dalinar. I agree that Evie (did I spell that right? I listened to the audiobook) was very flat and I never really got the feel that Dalinar actually cared about her at all, which wouldn't feel like a shafting if that had played into his guilt but I think we were supposed to think that he cared deeply for her despite it never being shown. Aside from that though I loved getting to learn about Dalinar's past and having him remembering it and trying to reconcile it with who he has become. Everything with Shallan was confusing and felt underdeveloped. It didn't really feel like it made sense that she would get so lost in these personas that she invented given how shallow they were. They were just slight variations of herself. It also felt like they resolved it very suddenly without any actual growth or development aside from Wit (who I do love) showing up and telling her it's okay. It did really feel like they had nothing to do with Kaladin but couldn't bear to leave him out of the story. I thought they were building toward something interesting with him joining up with the escaping Parshmen, but then they get where they're going and he's just like "Okay bye then, I guess I'll feel conflicted about this later." I also HAAAAATED the idea of Shallan and Kaladin as a romantic couple. It didn't make any sense to me, they never gave me the vibe that they had those kinds of feelings for each other, but Syl keeps insisting it's meant to be and I just want to grab her and tell her to shut up. I 100% agree that it would have been a far better dynamic to just have their time in the chasms bring them closer together as friends. Everyone getting stuck in Shadesmar just felt like the part where Goku needs to be incapacitated for a while so he can't save the day before things get dire enough. For the record I hate Moash, but that I also think he's an excellent character and I'm really excited to see where his story goes. I never was a fan of Elokar (I think there's supposed to be an 'h' in there?) and while it does suck that we lost him right as it seemed he was about to turn things around and start to BE better instead of just "trying his best" and expect the reader to think that's going to cut it. I really do understand why Moash did what he did, but he betrayed Kaladin to do it and that I cannot forgive. I'm coming to see that I didn't entirely realize just how much undeveloped side stuff they just threw in there until I heard you laying it all out and found myself nodding along like, "Oh yeah, that's a really good point." Anyway that's enough rambling on my part. I enjoyed the video, good stuff as always!
I thought I was the only one. I do agree about Dalinar being the strong point of the book. And good. But not good enough to redeem the rest of this. Honestly, this very well may be Sanderson's worst book (and I honestly didn't like Mistborn 2 or 3). He gets a lot of love for portraying mental illness in his characters. But I've never been convinced he does it as well as people say he does. And the story simply isn't interesting. And call me an old-school boomer, but I will not sit through "interesting ideas" for a bad story lacking compelling characters. If I'm interested in an idea, I will read NON-fiction. It's like Sanderson learned the worst lesson of Wheel of Time, how to take your best characters, empty them of meaning, and then drag the plot out. Oathbringer is The Slog of Stormlight.
What a useful comment. Guy makes 35 minute explanation of his views. You leave a three-word comment. Totally invalidating everything he said by saying, “I respectfully disagree.” What a genius you are.
@@AndySmithMN thats a plus! I liked him slightly better at the end of words of radiance but I think that's bc I have an unpopular hope for where his character goes 🤣
Like people say, BS is an ideas man and world-builder, but his writing and narrative style have huge issues. I also felt the antagonists lack entity. They're blurry things which threaten a lot, but then... It reminded me of the WoT Forsaken: all bluster and no bite. In fact, I feel Sanderson is copying the WoT, but for the wrong reasons: too many too long books for the story he's trying to tell, excess of characters POVs and secondary story lines, a clear cut good vs bad thing (at least for now), returning characters that play no further roles. And yes, OB is the weakest so far imo. What bothers me the most though is that the main characters are starting to become superheroes, and that takes the edge of the whole story. Great review!
If you dislike this book because he doesn’t incorporate LGBT in the way you want, then that ruins all your credibility. The sexuality of the characters being your focal point is pretty shallow and empty - regardless of orientation.
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Andy: "I did not like this book"
Me, looking at my little Oathbringer in the shelf: "It's okay, he didn't mean it"
A fantasy book-tuber who doesn't gush all over Sanderson? You sir have earned a subsribe.
Thank you for validating my frustration with Oathbringer!! The guilt and shame I have felt from not loving it have been huge! I seriously started questioning whether I was just not smart enough to read it!! Lol Keep being unapologetically yourself!!
I feel like the Sanderson fandom does not like criticism, generally. I have expressed my problems with the book to find only loathing from friends. Happy others agree.
Yes. Most criticisms are patronizing told, "not everybody has to like the book" in Reddit.
The whole Kholinar/Shadesmar storyline dragged on for too long. It just felt sanderson wanted to showcase the world more than the story. In his lectures, his beta readers told him, the whole shadesmar plot was moving without any end goal. Sanderson then made a change which implied Kaladin felt it in his instincts and wanted to go to the city where Dalinar will open the perpendicularity. But Kal Has no solid reason to go there other than a good climax for us.
But somehow this change satisfied his beta readers. How? "Our hero wants to go there. Alright that's enough for me"
It still baffles me. His beta readers need to be more strict and criticize more.
What happens when someone is critical of Malazan because it is too complex for them though... Many problems he has in this review come from lack of understanding which is fine just like it's fine to be critical Malazan for that... The problem is it isn't presented that way. There is so much context and fact left out of this review because he missed it. Andy missing things is probably the best negative he could have came out and given instead of trying to seem knowledgeable and blaming the author for not showing and only telling (FALSE)
To be clear I agree with a lot of what he said about the pacing.... But this is to be expected when it seems like the point of this book is to flesh out world building. It's my least fav of the three for sure.
@@brettmurray2473 yeah he had valid points. But yeah I love how people act like they wouldn’t do the same if a book they liked was criticized. Andy admitted that he skimmed a lot in other SA reviews. A lot of his points were good, but yeah he does seem to be giving an intentional counter critique and at some times it is just an inaccurate take.
@@brettmurray2473 I've harshly criticised Malazan myself (i respect it a lot, but prefer Bakker), especially the latter books; pace, structure, complexity and character altogether. But Erikson always pays off with two things - extremely well built theme consistency (i would argue he is the best theme-driven writer i've stumbled across) and carefuly constructed plot which climaxes in some of the most enjoyable endings in the genre. Also, yes, it is needlessly complex. Some people will hate this. But it is done so with purpose, Erikson wanted to show every side of the conflict, present it as objective as possible. It is completely valid if somebody finds it difficult to read, just as valid as finding the huge chunks of Stormlight where absolutely nothing happens as boring to get through. Though they are written with no value whatsoever other that making the books longer. Don't imitate Wheel of time, please.
The difference for me personally, however, is that Sanderson... doesn't pay off with theme. In fact, i'm not sure he even knows his themes, or if he acknowledges them as important point of his stories. His outlines are incredible but they overwhelm the story and don't let the characters grow enough, if at all; Erikson lacks solid characterization too, but he fights back with pulling tons of thematic and philosophic strings to flesh them out externally in the name of the general direction of the story. Sanderson lacks both characterization (or is at best weak) and thematic idea. He relies way too much on a before-hand plan he has made and refuses to change it during the writing process, even if it goes out of character. This results in him deciding actually not to build up his characters in detail, and therefore they turn into blunt plot devices. I also prefer Erikson's prose BY A HUGE MARGIN.
Lastly, show don't tell is a valid argument too, it is a field which Erikson actually takes too seriously with not explaining at all, while Sanderson completely ignores it and I hate this.
@@hopeprevails3213 I think you make some great points there, I've found that I personally value theme in books very highly and with Sanderson I just can't see the themes he's going for or if he's going for them at all. If someone asked me "what is Stormlight trying to say about the world?" I would have no idea what to say where with Malazan it's clear what the themes are and it gives you moral quandaries to grapple. I wasn't feeling that with Stormlight.
A lot of good points, but I don’t agree with all of them. I do agree that many things you point out seem to be examples where plot lines are lazily written without any payoff. But some things I was okay with. Like, shallan’s split personality thing doesn’t need to be akin to multiple personality disorder in our world; to me I thought it was clear it came from her powers. When she uses them she sort of actually becomes the characters she creates. Also, I was okay with not knowing Dalinar’s wife better. I think the point was Dalinar himself didn’t really know her. Anyway, great review!
With all respect to Sanderson and his fans, I agree with Andy completely.
His Way of kings was good but it has been downhill so far. Sanderson books are mainly for amateur fans with bad character and horrible handling of themes. The books lack depth, even though they can be fun.
The exception is Way of kings. That book is very very good because it is grounded and has some excellent storytelling. Now the following books are basically fluff, all spectacle and basically zero substance.
Andy I completely agree with your views. It can feel lonely when the fan community is out for you coz you just see the flaws of their favorite books. Thank you for being brave enough to be brave enough to voice your opinions.
All the major booktubers are afraid of saying bad about Oathbringer. Ot sucks and even Daniel greene succumbed to Sanderson fan hate
I definitely don't have as many complaints about this book, but it was for sure my least favorite of the three so far. I think my biggest complaint is Shallan's storyline. I completely agree with you on that one. I don't even understand who Shallan actually is at this point so I can't possibly determine if her character progression is well executed or not going forward. I hope, for one, that she doesn't create any more personalities in the next book and that we get a better understanding of how her Dissociative Identity Disorder works and manifests. But honestly at this point I'm scared about every character arc because this was definitely a downgrade from WoR lol
This is a pretty amazing review considering the Sanderson fan community is such a blatant echo chamber. I remember reading Oathbringer when it came out and just being let down, but after reading Malazan (currently on reapers gale) I just have no excitement for the series anymore.
We all find our own echo chambers. But yeah I can’t wait to start malazan.
Malazan fandom is also an echo chamber. It’s frustrating because I want to be involved in it but you can’t talk about Malazan without them talking about how they think it makes other authors look like shit and it dwarfs everything else, going so far as to insult other authors. Every fandom is an echo chamber of praise but none are so vehemently opposed to seemingly every other piece of created literature
@@disorientedkiwi7984 yeah that’s what I am noticing. It’s ironic with all these comments saying look out for the Sanderson echo chamber.
@@disorientedkiwi7984 It comes off as elitist in my opinion. SA isn’t for everyone, but it’s not as bad as video makes it to be.
@@disorientedkiwi7984 : I agree. On Reddit at least, r/Malazan is a huge echo chamber. On r/Stormlight_Archive, I regularly see people criticizing Sanderson. On r/Malazan only the most fawning praise is considered acceptable. I recently posted a critical comment about the role of female soldiers in Malazan and people told me to "go read something else". 🙄
Man, I was pretty hyped about the unmade because they just sounded cool, but they really did feel like minibosses throughout oathbringer. I love the comparison of ghostbloods to a sidequest, it really do be that way
I honestly don’t get the issue with adolin killing sadeas, Sadeas was evil and was plotting against his family. What do you want to happen to adolin for doing the right thing ? I’m literally confused ? Is it that you like the prise where the good continue to be passive and allow the bad guys to live and to continue to strike against them ?
It's almost like he didn't think too much about the book and flew though it 🤔 wonder if he would like Malazan as much if he flew through that without thought too.
Adolin kills Sadeas...then spends a good chunk of Oathbringer agonizing about it, finally tells everyone about it for them to shrug ot off is quintessential Sanderson melodrama. Literally this type of shit in all his books.
Yep... I'm done. I listened to wor and thought ok this seems all right and a bit of a step up. Then ob left me empty. I don't see myself ending this series let alone the first arc
Lol, I just finished RoW, and I shit you not, the exact same fucking thing happens
Adolin never agonized about it though. Not once. He mentioned internally he felt good about it and would do it again, and said it every time. He just didn’t want to reveal He was the one who did it or got caught.
But once again in the grand scheme of things, Sadeas becomes irrelevant. The story would’ve been completely different if he had been forthcoming about the murder in the beginning.
I’ll say this, not every book or series will land with everyone. It won’t resonate to the point of deeper connection.
That being said, it’s an installment, and not everything is meant to be explained in this book. Some answers come later.
I really enjoyed it, I felt like it was long, but it helped develop the story to mature sufficiently, and so I had no issue with it.
Spoiler for OB below
Yes I whole heartedly agree with your assessment of Moash. I just don't hate him. I have seen worse characters in Asoiaf, Malazan, etc. I totally side with him killing the king. Elokhar also having a redemption will just be a repeat of Dalinar's storyline.
This is quite well reasoned and level headed for a rant review. I'll fight any haters (as a stormlight defender lol)
I need to do a word search on my ecopies to see how many times "feels wrong" shows up. Its pretty prevalent in the series as a whole haha
Thank you for this!! I literally got in an arguement with a collegue at a conference about this book.. specfically about how sloppily and borderline irresponsibly it commentates on real life social issues. I also think Brandon Sanderson seems like a great guy, which is why I wanted to like it so badly.
I think you nailed it with the video game connection. This was the book that made me realize Sanderson has a video game conception of reality. Almost all his work operates under video game logic. Even when he tries to add moral-ethical complexity to his stories they are presented with as much nuance as a dialogue wheel in an rpg.
Oathbringer is my favorite Cosmere book so far, but I have to agree with this. This particular aspect of Sanderson’s writing really irks me.
I just want to be here for you in these tough times. You are clearly going through something that has led you down a dim, dark path toward hate. Do not give in! There is light at the end of the tunnel and I will be here to shepherd you back toward the light! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY ANDY!
Andy has some really insightful points. Atleast he tries to show his point by making efforts in his video.
Unlike you riding on your high horse, without using an ounce of effort and just showing baseless lambaste. You couldn't even type your points. Just coz someone doesn't like your FAVORITE book doesn't make him wrong. Oathbringer sucks. Be a fan. Good for you. But respect who have different opinion than yours
Some authors care about them and meaning more than others. I feel that Sanderson likes cool video gamey/marvel-esque ideas and stories, where the themes arise from a narrative, rather than being the reason for it
You make some good criticisms of OB. I personally loved OB because how much it introduces. How much depth it provides to the world. Yes the plot and characters suffer because of this as Brandon tries to juggle multiple different viewpoints and plot lines. There were a few things that we got some so-so payoffs on (Sadeas’ murder and Heleran’s murder) and I agree with you there.
Although I think the dark eyes v light eyes debate isn’t over. It might come to a head somewhere in Venli’s plot in the next book hopefully, but I don’t think that animosity is dissolved. In fact, because there are no more parish men, I hope to see that come closer to the forefront of the populace because they need someone to do their menial tasks.
I also hope that RoW tightens up a little bit, but it’s entirely possible it could be similarly disjointed because of the many viewpoints
Edit: also to comment on the Unmade: that’s one of those hidden details you have to figure out from some of the epigraphs. Even then you might only know a little bit. And there’s 9 of them
For me, Oathbringer was ruined by Shadesmar. It's the single most clumsy and uninspiring imaginative construct I've ever had to suffer through in a book written for entertainment. They whole thing is just cringey.
Just reading this a year later , feel the same, Shadesmar is utterly embarrassing and I only skimmed all that crap. Its pre-schoo fantasy nonsense
Great review!
Some points on which I quite agree:
• Jasnah: Seriously, I don't understand why she's so popular when she hasn't shown anything useful yet. I honestly thought that after her experience in WoR here she was going to have a more important role, but basically in this book she becomes Urithiru's goalkeeper.
• The final: I remember when I was reading it, I didn't really care what was happening or to whom, at times I felt totally disconnected. Which I did not understand, but it was probably due to what you pointed out, that a lot was happening but there was no depth or tension necessary, only things happened (shit happens time). The only moment that I liked was the 'YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN', but being the only one I could end up taking it as a flash and nothing more.
• Moash: The hatred towards him is exaggerated. In fact, in this case, he seems to be a relatively more coherent character with his ideas and development. And ... in that sense, Moash > Kaladin(or Syl? With her/his particular idea of honor). Also, as you say, he didn't do something extremely evil either. Although I must admit that coming from reading ASoIaF or Malazan, few things are going to be really evil to me (?
I just finished Toll the Hounds... Could that damage the reading of Rhythm of War, we will see (?
I adore Brandon Sanderson. I think he is a very nice, lovely guy, doing fantastic job with his lectures, videos, interviews and popularization of fantasy in general... I believe he has some of the most intiguing ideas out of the modern fiction authors, but oh boy, I just can't stand his writing.
The Stormlight was pretty overhyped right from the beginning in my opinion, mainly because this was a "big fat book series that is not a trilogy" from the "king of the genre" Sanderson and therefore it absolutely had to be epic and the best fantasy evaaah! The first two books I honestly found meh, but there were some good parts in them, mainly idea-wise. I despise his writing style and think of it as way too simple and not at all worthy of more than a 500 page book, and when it comes to Stormlight, it bleeds. Bad. It becomes repetitive and jarring to read after a very short while. Not to mention Brandon needlessly prolongues everything so as to make the books ridiculously long. There are so many pages with no essence whatsoever in them that I can't understand how people enjoy this, honestly! And the countless interludes and flashbacks, Jesus Christ! I would argue Mistborn has more context and "stuff" inside a single entry of the trilogy than does the entire Stormlight series so far.
And Oathbringer is the worst. I was so disappointed from this book, that I haven't read anything by Sanderson since. The guy seriously can't handle more than a couple POVs and storylines. He struggles to focus on what's important, the story just stops, waddles around aimlessly and turns into a useless slog. The characters, outside the main bunch, are pieces of cardboard who do what the plot demands of them (in the once-in-a-5-chapters moment when the plot actually reappears). From the main characters, I like only Kaladin. Shallan is atrocious. Dalinar is mad for the sake of being mad; I've never actually found the "deep dive" of mental illness in the books... eminent, as everybody emphasizes. He is just a crazy old man (also a cheating bastard with his killed brother's wife on behalf of his own dead wife, what the fuck?). My final point will be extremely controverial, but for me Brandon is one of the reasons hard magic is overwhelming the fantasy genre, which is just... miserable. Killing the wonder and awe of actual sorcery, replacing it with pseudotechnology. Seriously, give them guns, don't ruin magic.
did.... did you really read Oathbringer?
While I agree that its the slowest of them all so far saying the side characters are pieces of cardboard is just plainly not true
Dalinar in no point is portrayed as mad. Seriously what were you reading? He is portrayed as a terrible person
Personally as a person who is suffering from depression I do find the portrayal of Kaladin´s very close to my personal experience (except for the battle trauma and magic of course)
Finally kinda unfair of you to put on Brandon the blame for people writing hard magic systems
Its like saying its GRR Martin´s fault that people began writing edgy fantasy
Or that it was Tolkien´s fault that people began writing knock offs of his work
Its never the OG creators fault that people decide to copy them without a second thought
Great video Andy! This was cathartic to watch. I REALLY did not like Oathbringer after thinking books 1 & 2 were brilliant for the most part. Like you said at the end reading this has zapped my energy for this series. I still want to continue but I am much less enthusiastic going into books 4 & 5. Hope you enjoy the rest of your day!
I honestly have to agree. The Dalinar stuff is honestly so good and is so perfectly done. It’s easily the best thing about it. But almost everything else falls flat. Things that are set up aren’t followed through (Kaladin’s realization that the Parshmen may rightly be angry), and those that do get wrapped up are wrapped up in such an unsatisfying way (the aftermath of Adolin killing Sadeus). I liked Way of Kings despite pacing issues, and I thought Words of Radiance was phenomenal, but I felt like Oathbringer just dropped the ball. I haven’t read RoW yet, but all I can hope is that it gets better from here.
I know I'm a bit late to the party on this, but really appreciated your review. I loved the Dalinar parts of Oathbringer for the most part, but kind of struggled with some of the other bits. Shallan is probably my least favorite character and I think just not as compelling as the others. I'm not sure if you have read Rhythm of War yet, but I really do feel like Sanderson needs a more confident/competent editor. I would argue that some of the content from these books, particularly some of the side characters, could be split up into smaller novellas similar to Edgedancer and the pacing of the main novels would be way better. I wonder if he is feeling pressure to keep the story to 10 books as promised and therefore is putting everything he can into each book, but I think the pacing of the books is suffering right now and I'm wondering if the trend will reverse in stormlight 5 and 6.
i am only here for the fantasy dude bro arguments.
Regarding female characters with relationships: What about Shallan/Jasnah? Sylphrena/Kaladin? Venli/Eshonai? Or even Shallan/Sebarial?
I like "Oathbringer", and I also loved your rant! ♥
Or Lift/Gawx (or whatever his name is).
this whole time i thought that shallan's multiple personalities were part of her magic system lmfao
I had the same problems. And I couldn't stand the running flashbacks b4, but now it's insufferable and I don't care about them. And they half exist to conveniently imprint on why a character will make a decision
I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!!! Your reviews are so on point!! Underrated booktuber
I second this notion. Excellent critique. Not a whole lot of people who are willing to see passed their own bias on this series to be honest about Sanderson’s prose or Deus ex’s.
Highly appreciate this review! Fingers crossed on Rhythm of War
@@guillermodorado8042 yes because something foreshadowed thousands of pages in advance is a Deus ex... Keep looking down upon those who like to read such drivel, looks good on you.
None of the critiques in this were handled with any care. It's a 30 min video and all I got is that he didn't understand what was going on because a lot was happening, the prose are simple, and the MIDDLE book in a 5 book arc of a 10 book series didn't tie things up neatly.
Thanks, Andy. You have hit a set of points that I felt but never did really put together. To be honest I'm a big fan of Sanderson and Stormlight (have spent many hours editing and adding to the Coppermind, for e.g.) , and overall rate Stormlight and Oathbringer higher than you do. However, do I acknowledge the weaknesses you have highlighted.
For me, being so deep into the fandom I think I get a lot of enjoyment from the little details of Cosmere connectedness or little hints across times and locations. That seems to paper over the negatives enough to keep me engaged. In that regard, the massive page count and multiple storylines are seen as a positive (more detail to sift through!) - the depth gets added slowly across books and series.
Still, it means that if you're not spending hours digging into the minutia of the Cosmere, there are significant weaknesses in this book and series. Kudos for sticking your neck out. :)
I've never read a book over 500 pages that couldn't be made better by making it shorter.
I wasnt happy with Oathbringer and just couldnt put it all into words. I guess you did that for me cuz that pretty much sums up how I felt. I didnt hate it but your points were dead on with my feelings.
The glow of your beard is blinding me. It's amazing.
Hi there, just wanted to say congrats on hitting 1k subs! I found your channel a few weeks ago, and it's become one that I most look forward to watching. Love your perspectives and analysis!
You're convincing me to not even finish Way of Kings. This sounds so weird. I can't figure out why people like it.
"... Because of the massive success, there's not as much editing as there should be."
Who would honestly want to edit his books? His books would get cut in half, and it would still lack decent pacing or meaningful impact.
But I just bounce clean off his style.
... I think the people who like his books just kind of turn off their brains and go on auto pilot.
They must treat it like a cruise through a fantasy world.
But his writing is exhausting. And consistently inspires a feeling of me dragging my skull across concrete.
Another amazing review! You're making me struggle to remember why I loved this book! Pacing issues and the scattered finale made this my least favorite of the three. Can't disagree with your criticisms, but I'm sure Cosmere experts will come at you with counterarguments.
Yes to wanting male/female friendships! Why can't that be a thing? While I find Sanderson's romantic tension between characters very cringey, I was anticipating greater payoff when Shallan learned that Kaladin killed her brother or with that whole love triangle situation. You made a strong point about many lost opportunities. I'm still hoping Adolin will face greater consequences for murdering Sadeas in Rhythm of War.
I personally love the Wit more than any other character in this series. Strange opinion, I know.
Excellent insights, as always! I remain respectful of Sanderson’s achievements in this series, but I do agree with you that Oathbringer is the weakest installment thus far. More than usual, some editing was needed. Thanks, Andy - very enjoyable analysis!
BRING OUT THE TROLLLLLLLS 🤣🤣🤣 but in all seriousness this was a great review! It was also my least favorite finale!
I did enjoy oathbringer but it was a very slow read plus I don't love it as I do with way of kings and words of radiance 🤔
My thoughts on your spoiler thoughts:
Plot too slow at many different points. 100% agree. Part 5 was the only part where the pacing felt above average to me.
You’re right on this being an overall good representation on mental health and addiction overall, but a misrepresentation on multiple personality disorder with Shallan (if that is what he is doing.) It’s possible that the powers Shallan has could lead to personality disorders we’ve never even seen before. There has been some research into what personality disorders are more common among spies/double agents (which IMO, is the most similar real world situation to what Shallan is in), and there can often be a mix of things like PTSD and some other personality disorders, though I don’t feel like symptoms would manifest in the way they did in Shallan. Interesting sidenote: I have a Psych Bachelor’s degree, and some of the Psychiatrists I met said he didn’t believe Multiple Personality Disorder is real (he said this in the context of an ethical argument of saying you shouldn’t see patients with conditions you don’t think are real.) Jeff at The Fowler Project would be an interesting person to ask, but he has not read SA yet.
And yes, I didn’t like her multiple personalities overall either. Shallan was my favorite in the first two books, but this book she was very meh. If felt like she was going through middle book development: problems used to give the character something to do when the author doesn’t know what to do with them. This is also shown with her food stealing. I agree, super weak. I did love the Wit parts here too.
I actually loved the reveal that the humans were the colonizers of this world. That was one of my favorite parts. I think it is paralleled in this world with the current situation of Native Americans and how they are treated on our continent, and how we learn about the founding of our country in grade school, and how that often leaves out the oppression and borderline genocide of Native Americans. However, if Sanderson doesn’t do anything with this plotline in RoW, this will be a massive missed opportunity. There needs to be major truth and reconciliation in both Stormlight, and in the real world.
I completely agree. Where the F was Jasnah all Fing book. Super sad not to see more Jasnah. We got so many perspectives in this book, how did we not get Jasnah’s. Again, I have not started RoW or even dawnshard, but I really hope she gets some actual time.
And yes, I was super interested in goals and motives of different factions in the first two books, and trying to figure everything like that out. But in this book, Odium is just a cartoonish evil dude, and the other stuff matters a lot less. We don’t need everything to be revealed to us, but I would have liked more of that to be fleshed out. I’m kind of hesitant saying we need more of this or more of that, because I felt like we already had so many different small puzzle pieces and sidearcs.
I actually liked Evie, pretty much what I was expecting.
I also liked Moash as a character, but I thought his character arc as it relates to part 3 was super predictable. I was underwhelmed by the part 3 climax, especially in comparison to the other part 3 climaxes.
As far as the love story goes, it was overall meh. I don’t think it took up too many pages. The small part I liked about the love story was Syl talking to Kaladin about Shallan. I found it relatable as a single guy mostly because Syl is a child, and sometimes kids wonder why a relationship should not/does not/cannot work. And a lot of times you don’t have an answer for them beyond they love someone else/they are in a relationship with someone else, and if you have been around inquisitive children, they will ask still ask “why?” I feel for Kaladin in that moment, because I’m just an awkward dude who doesn’t know how to explain those things to kids either.
Love that you love the end of the shadow rising and I felt like I spent way to much time trying to get there that I didn’t enjoy it once I got there and that seems like what happened to you with OB. Which although now on re-read I have WAY fewer complaints I do agree that it is too long.
I will say the thing you said with Shallan I always thought the ambiguity was cause from her perspective she doesn’t really know what is happening either and I am really excited that in the acknowledgements for RoW he talks about a personality disorder specialist who helped him with this next one!
Hopefully this next one will be more full-filling for you, I know I am having a blast so far, but I love this series a whole bunch 😆
I had Sanderson hyped up to me like he was the most prolific writer of our time, that he was the Tolkien of our generation, that I absolutely HAD to read his stuff! So I started reading him, and I was like, "...really?" No doubt there are some things he does that he is very good at. The sheer volume of writing that he has released is worth noting. But I do not like him! I do not find his stories compelling, his characters do not grab my attention, and the pacing of his stories is so criminally slow that they constantly lose my attention. It took me about eight months to get through The Way of Kings because I had to force myself to keep coming back to it to get through it. All in all, I don't think Sanderson is even half the writer people hype him up to be. I personally think the Sanderson hype train is going to run out of track in the not too distant future, and he will be all but completely forgotten after that.
It took me 6 months to get through this book and I just figured my expectations were too high after WoR.
But every point you made just clicked like yup this is why
What did you think of Rhythm of War? Or have you not read that one yet? Imo that's the worst book in the series.
@@malazisland300 I have not read it yet. I only finished OB a couple months before the release, so I was a little burnt out after trudging through that.
Now after hearing all the mixed reviews and people comparing it to OB I'm even more hesitant to dive in 😬 I'll get there tho, and luckily I have plenty of time before book 5 comes
I wasn't really a fan of Oathbringer as well. I think it started with a huge hurdle because all of the main conflicts were solved at the end of the second book. There is always a boring restart to ramp up new conflict in fantasy, but it was especially bad in this book because everything was resolved at the start. Did you read Warbreaker by chance? I felt like that added some interesting elements to this book 3.
Thank you for putting this out :)
I also thought that Oathbringer brought up too many things while not exploring them in depth.
you know what I wonder some times about people?
I wonder if in the writing of Fellowship of the Ring to Return of the King, whether people were sitting there acting like spoilt children complaining that things seem to be difficult and hard to get around. You know, like the whole huge amount of time we left Frodo after being stabbed by Shelob in Two Towers and then had to wait nearly a whole year to learn the end and having to watch things just progressively get worse.
If my subtlety isn't getting through to you, I'll explain it simpler.
the story isn't even slightly over with and complaining that things seem unfulfilled is stupid. Try and look at the positives than the negatives, your arguments would make sense if this was the final book in the series, but luckily we've still got 6 books left in the series of The Stormlight Archive.
Love the review. Very brave of you to stand up to the tyrannical Sanderson fanbase while your channel is just starting out. This guys approach to class and power is incredibly problematic both in SA and Mistborn. Particularly as it is played out through racialized logic. He has a habit of portraying both sides as equally wrong. He spent the last two books of the original Mistborn trilogy trying to justify Elend's power grab and suppression of Skaa rebellion as justifiable because he gave the Skaa population a 3rd of the vote while maintaining class stratification. If Sanderson switched up the power dynamics in his stories from light eye vs Dark eye and Skaa vs ruling class to something white skin vs black skin division, his simple ass stories would become glaringly difficult to defend.
I bet you can't write "simple ass stories" like him.
@@n0zenzur Well yes, I try to write complex stories with complex characters and themes; if I write the way Sanderson does, I would feel extremely dissatisfied.
Hmmm I thought he handles parshendi pretty fantastically as treatment of race relations
@@hopeprevails3213 I'm sure you have a flourishing career
@@disorientedkiwi7984 there are 0 Parshmen POV characters in all of SA and only 3 Parshendi. Meanwhile he focuses on the humans who used them as slaves for generations and are now fighting against them. Far from "fantastically"
Genuinely curious.. do you want to continue reading and reviewing Sanderson because it's interesting, or because he's just one of the biggest names in fantasy right now?
I very much appreciate your thoughts and insights - Sanderson as a writer holds no appeal to me, so it's hard to feel motivated to read anything more by him.
Great video! I wasn't sure what it is about the book that bothered me, but you summed it up very well. There's so many things I'm confused about or was disappointed with...
[Spoilers]
-Shallan: I thought she was cool after creating veil to do the dirty work, but at the end, I was so confused. Shallan was there, along with Veil and Radiant, and they were interacting with each other, which is so confusing cuz they're the same person.
-the love triangle: I was expecting more interactions between Shallan and Kaladin. But they basically just made glances at each other.. they should've been developed as friends from the very start
-Renarin: how exactly did he bond a "broken" spren, is he actually a knight's radiant, what exactly did he do to betray them?
-Jasnah: I'm curious about her the most, I think she's so cool, but we don't get to know much about her and her experience in shadesmar. Also, we didn't even get to see her reaction after knowing her brother died..
-how did Dalinar suddenly get god-like powers? I know he resisted Odium, but suddenly he made the portal to shadesmar?? Where did that new power come from?
-Kaladin: he's my favorite character, but I agree, he needs more in the plot . I still hope he gets a romance in the future books..
Regardless, I did enjoy it and kept wanting to know what happens next.
What he did to Shallan's character was so bad. I loved Shallan in the first book, but that multiple personality stuff was just awful.
@@malazisland300 yes I agree. I thought her moment with Wit was beautiful when he told her that she can be all 3 personalities as one person. But that moment went to waste cuz Shallan never resolved the issue and still kept the separate personalities at the end of the book
Love your Stormlight reviews! Despite really liking the first 2 books this one was a bit of a drag.
Oh and I'm not sure I'll ever forgive Sanderson for making Kaladin somewhat subservient to Dalinar, completely crippled Kaladin as a character, never mind the obvious connotations that Sanderson never really deals with. I'd love for Kaladin to get out from under Dalinar and forge a path for himself, I thought that him going to visit his family etc at the start of this book would be the start of that journey....
Because I love you, I played your review on normal speed in it's entirety.
On mute. So we can stay friends.
🏃♀️💨
i have to say i really agree, but there are a few points i'd add:
1.) there is a huge and sudden power jump for several characters, everything regarding the final battle was just characters becoming supersaiyans in seconds
2.) the recreanse thing was very underwhelming. didn't really understand why that was such a huge deal.
fun rant, wish i liked it more because the way of kings is in my top 10 for sure, hoping for future better books.
final thoughts, this felt like book 2 in mistborn for me. i hope he picks up it up like he did with the rest of the mistborn books after book 2
This is the book where the series started losing me, then book 4 basically was the nail in the coffin. Shame.
Hey man I appreciate your opinions. I agreed with a lot of them tbh, though I probably liked the book better as a whole than you did. Definitely my least favorite Stormlight book. The Kholinar part and the ending both went on WAY too long, and I don’t say that about books very often. Shallan’s mental health situation was pretty undercooked, especially the way it was resolved (though from what I’ve seen it looks to be getting way more fleshed out in RoW so we’ll see). I also thought the Kaladin parts dragged way too much and were repetitive. However, I disagree in that I think the payoff was ALMOST worth it. The part where Kaladin is watching his friends kill each other without being able to stop it is such a heart rending character moment for him that I see exactly what Sanderson was going for and really like the idea. I also think the Elhokar death on the whole was extremely stupid and probably my least favorite part of the book. His entire character arc in that book with him “getting better” and all just felt so clearly like an attempt to make me care for someone who was gonna die (because like elhokar is just not unique enough to become another main character, so what else can happen to him, you know?). Pretty much everything else I liked though, there’s something about SAnderson’s worldbuilding that makes me very forgiving to him lmao.
Mr. Andy Smith by day.
Editing Andy by night.
It would be interesting to hear your critics of MBotF elements that you don't like. If there any of course. As for Sanderson, all my suspicions about his writing style that I got after reading Elantris confirmed in this video. Not my cup of tea.
I agree. The Malazan fandom is a much worse echo chamber than the Sanderson fandom. I would love to hear some intelligent criticism from someone who has finished the series.
It's always sad and a bit annoying that the more successful a writer gets the bigger their books get even when they shouldn't. That's what always makes me hesitant to tackle a series like this. I have very little patience for sloggy parts of a book haha
I liked Oathbringer but it's my least favorite in the series so far. There were A LOT of terms, names and concepts that was intruduced in this book that just went over my head and could've been explained better like "The Unmade, The fused, Skybreakers, the different knight radiance factions etc.
People criticise Robert Jordan for being repetitive when it comes to explaining the rules of his magic system in WoT, that he repeats the rules again and again but I feel like Sanderson has the opposite problem in Stormlight Archives: He will explain his magic system once briefly in passing and then never again and the reader is expected to memorise all of this. I really struggled with this.
Andy! Just, literally just finish the book & had to check out your spoiler rant section.
I liked Oathbringer! Dalinar might be my favorite character & I enjoyed learning about his past & seeing him come to grips with that in the present. But I think your criticism were well thought, well delivered and respectable. I can agree with some of them. There's ALOT of moving pieces & they don't move perfectly for the most cohesive story.
Still excited to read Dawnshard & ROW! Looking forward to more of your vids bro!
I agree with a lot of this. I just feel like it needed more editing. It was confusing. And i think he was working on Jordan’s books when he wrote this one-could be wrong but that might be part of the reason why it felt chaotic
I like Sanderson but I don't love Sanderson and I think that's the problem with his the cult of BranSan. I wish I could put it a nicer way but I can't when people read his books they talk about it like it's life changing religious experience sometimes that bothers me. I love the first era Mistborn it lived put o it's hype. So I checked out the Starlight Archive and I'll be honest TWOK was difficult I loved anything with Kaladin and Bridge Four, Dalinar shone sometimes, Shallan was like kill me now this is boring. WOR I recently finished and fuck that was chore and half it took me a year to get through it because I was so bored with it, Shallan finally get's interesting about half way through. Dalinar gets less interesting and over all I was just done I've got the other 2 hardbacks but I'm done with this series I think, I can't get into it's like going past the third date with a girl your one like date sixteen and your still waiting for something to happen. Your like come on bb you know what I want. I genuinely don't like being this negative, but Sanderson fans are so negative about other authors particularly Martin because of his extreme boost in popularity thanks to GOT show, however Brandon does not write emotion anywhere near level of Martin. The over use of fantasy sounding names (Yes I know it's fantasy but still) there are way too many names like Elokar, dashakar, Vagmaro, Telaris, Ihis, Urmath. They are not any of the names in the book but they're similar and it's hard sometimes to tell if they're talking about a city or a person and the names just feel overdone fantasy like too much sugar in your coffee or salt in your soup. There is zero tolerance for honest heartfelt criticism in the cult of BranSan they just trash you for it, I 100% saying these books are over rated beyond belief and are really boring for the most part. The sad thing is I think with a really good editor and at least 300 to 400 pages of the first 2 books removed they could be really good. Obviously there's something in ther that keeps me coming back, I do think they just don't want their page count because I've read books that long before but they manage to stay interesting. With starlight when you get to those last chapters your just bored by that stage.
Oathbringer was a huge disappointment for me. I think Sanderson has too many yes-men among him. Quality over quantity, Mr. Sanderson!
Thank you! So many people think it's the best in the series but easily my least favorite
I loved oathbringer
I don't think Sanderson is a "bad" writer, his lectures on writing are marvelous, and he does seems to be a nice person... But to be honest I definitely think that all the HUGE praise and admiration and reverence and adotaion he gets from the fantasy reading community should belog to Ursula K Le Guin or Robbin Hobb (just mentioning two examples), who are EXTRAORDINARY writers, with BEAUTIFUL prose, WONDERFUL ideas and INSANELY talented... Sanderson might be a good fantasy writer, but Hobb and Le Guin are some of the finest Writers, beyond any label, and we fantasy lovers are SO lucky they happened to love fantasy as well.
I tend to agree with you, and think that part of Sanderson's success is his accessibility. His writing is simple and accessible, his 'hard magic' systems are something that seems very popular currently, and he draws a lot on superhero/comic elements that fit with the glut of superhero movies/television in the culture. He's like a good pop band- his songs might be pretty poppy and mainstream, but he does have talent.
Can't watch yet since I haven't read it, but liking and commenting to show support!!
18:28 amen dude. This is what made me close the book halfway thru and just give up.
Great review.
This is what happens after you have read the MBotF. It's like trying to watch Dragon Ball Z after watching The Wire.
Oathbringer is my fav
I completely respect your opinion even though I don't agree. While OB is my least favorite of the Stormlight books I still really liked it. Also, I am one of those WoT fans who doesn't mind the slog. Is it perfect? No, but there are so many good things to find upon reread. I'm in the middle of a WoT reread and just finished book 10 and enjoyed my time. Book 11 is up next after I finish Rhythm of War and a few other books.
Interesting thoughts. I know you've been struggling with this series more broadly, but I'm going to mildly disagree on the promises not being met. This is subject to change based on the follow-ups to this series, but given that this is book 3 of a projected 10 book series, I don't feel like all these specific promises you have mentioned need to be addressed in this book. If Lighteyes/Darkeyes discrimination is never brought up again, I think it will be bad, but I don't expect something to be wrapped up midway through a series. But the larger bedrock narrative questions should be doled out over time.
On your spoiler thoughts (specifically on the colonialism) the only point I'd like to bring up is that, given the Stormlight Archive's relationship to the Cosmere, I'm going to assume that the humans came from another planet and colonized Roshar, potentially worldhoppers and that they took over the Parshmen. What I see Sanderson doing here is try to address our world's sordid history of Social Darwinism and Colonialism from the perspective of those who colonized indigenous peoples. Given America's cultural genocide of Native Americans that goes largely unaddressed, I see the hegemony of Kholinar having to reckon with its role as imperialists several thousand years ago as an inflection point for its culture. Now the question will be trying to figure out how to live with the fact that they've profited off of exploitation of native people. While it's not something that's addressed deeply - which is a fair criticism - I don't think the idea comes out of nowhere and has plenty of basis in historical fact.
Granted, we'll have to see where Sanderson takes it, and your critiques are solid, but it's similar to how Malazan addresses Capitalism and its excesses through Lether: obliquely referencing the real world to comment on it.
Cheers
I fully disagree on the promises part.... IMO Sanderson is top tier at this... Fully agree with you
I completely agree with all the points you made, this was a chore to read and even the fast paced end battle was really hard to follow.
The thing killing this series most for me though is Shallan, I dislike her and the whole 3 people in one thing its very jarring. There was a moment in shadesmar where I thought it would get resolved but sadly that wasn't the case
OB spoilers
For the proto bridge 4s in Kaladins story that wasn't just throwing the same thing at Kaladin again because he was lazy. It was about Kaladin realizing that the us vs them mentality he had as a soldier was a lie.
This made me very glad I didn’t continue with the series. Hearing you talk about these books makes me realize how much of them I have forgotten. I feel like my brain is repressing those memories because of trauma lol. Great review. I’ll be intrigued to hear your RoW thoughts.
So reading the responses the WoT vs. Malazan debate is passe and we have moved to Sanderson vs. Erickson and whether to blame the author for not explaining vs. Reader not understanding.
For full disclosure I have never read Sando and am really not that interested. Am planning to read Eye of the World on general principle but likely won't get much farther.
Nailed it.
ok gotta apreciate the irony here
16:10 "Its actually the humans who conquered Roshar [...] and we are supposed to root for humanity?"
_is literally gringo_
Only watched positive views. When you held up note pad with list of negatives, oh man, I can't 🥺🥺 hopefully RoW is better reading (I'm assuming you're moving forward with next before deciding to drop off) Always appreciate your videos and thoughts (not this one 😅)
I half agree and half disagree with everything you said. This was a great review! I did love the book tho,,
I'm pretty happy I stopped at Words of Radiance, I agree that in general the series felt like it didn't utilize the budget of the page count where major events happen. Do you think that you were too generous with your ratings for the previous books or is OB really a standout of the three? I didn't jive with Sanderson's style so I've accepted he's not an author for me.
I felt Oathbringer was the weakest though I still thought it was very enjoyable. WoR was legitimately one of the best fantasy books I’ve ever read though, almost certainly in the top 5 among books like A Storm of Swords, Lord of the Rings, Memories of Ice and Twig by Wildbow.
@@disorientedkiwi7984 I wish I liked it as much as all the books you mentioned since I've read and enjoyed all that you mentioned minus Twig, I do think Sanderson isn't an author for me. There were some great moments in WoR but the overall cohesion of the overarching narrative doesn't really click for me.
@@AndySmithMN Hey out of curiosity have you read First Law? I feel like they’re the kind of books you’d really like. They have some outstanding character writing
Like the way u review book!! 😊📖
Oh shoot- I'm getting this in the mail today.
What song is playing in the background around 5:45? It's so good
I just finished GOTM and am now on DG in MBOTF.... It's now clear to me you value complex prose VERY highly and you struggle with digesting a simplistic prose style. The fact that you can't handle all of the things going on at once, want instant payoff, complain about length, how long it takes to get to things, and non obvious character motivations...yet hold Malazan in such high regard tells me you didn't actually give this series the attention it requires. There are a lot of juicy details you can pick up when you read this series in between the lines. That is If you're willing to take the some of the same amount of effort you would towards MBOTF. IMO the density of this series requires an iron clad memory or note taking. (Not quite on the level of MBOTF but in the same vein) I also see SA era 1 similar to MBOTF as a continual story, or one "book" you could say. I think you'd be surprised how many of you complaints would be remedied if you viewed it through this lens.
I'm going through Malazan and I have to hold faith that the many questions I have will be awnswered a number of books down the line... And you can't do the same for this series? It seems like you just chalk up any question you have in SA to bad writing.
rhythm of war was even worse unfortunately. This series is dun.
EDIT: This comment contains some Oathbringer spoilers, so if you're not about that life turn back now.
I enjoyed Oathbringer, but thinking back on it it's almost entirely because of Dalinar. I agree that Evie (did I spell that right? I listened to the audiobook) was very flat and I never really got the feel that Dalinar actually cared about her at all, which wouldn't feel like a shafting if that had played into his guilt but I think we were supposed to think that he cared deeply for her despite it never being shown. Aside from that though I loved getting to learn about Dalinar's past and having him remembering it and trying to reconcile it with who he has become.
Everything with Shallan was confusing and felt underdeveloped. It didn't really feel like it made sense that she would get so lost in these personas that she invented given how shallow they were. They were just slight variations of herself. It also felt like they resolved it very suddenly without any actual growth or development aside from Wit (who I do love) showing up and telling her it's okay.
It did really feel like they had nothing to do with Kaladin but couldn't bear to leave him out of the story. I thought they were building toward something interesting with him joining up with the escaping Parshmen, but then they get where they're going and he's just like "Okay bye then, I guess I'll feel conflicted about this later." I also HAAAAATED the idea of Shallan and Kaladin as a romantic couple. It didn't make any sense to me, they never gave me the vibe that they had those kinds of feelings for each other, but Syl keeps insisting it's meant to be and I just want to grab her and tell her to shut up. I 100% agree that it would have been a far better dynamic to just have their time in the chasms bring them closer together as friends.
Everyone getting stuck in Shadesmar just felt like the part where Goku needs to be incapacitated for a while so he can't save the day before things get dire enough.
For the record I hate Moash, but that I also think he's an excellent character and I'm really excited to see where his story goes. I never was a fan of Elokar (I think there's supposed to be an 'h' in there?) and while it does suck that we lost him right as it seemed he was about to turn things around and start to BE better instead of just "trying his best" and expect the reader to think that's going to cut it. I really do understand why Moash did what he did, but he betrayed Kaladin to do it and that I cannot forgive.
I'm coming to see that I didn't entirely realize just how much undeveloped side stuff they just threw in there until I heard you laying it all out and found myself nodding along like, "Oh yeah, that's a really good point."
Anyway that's enough rambling on my part. I enjoyed the video, good stuff as always!
How brave, i'm afraid they will come for you now!
I thought I was the only one. I do agree about Dalinar being the strong point of the book. And good. But not good enough to redeem the rest of this. Honestly, this very well may be Sanderson's worst book (and I honestly didn't like Mistborn 2 or 3). He gets a lot of love for portraying mental illness in his characters. But I've never been convinced he does it as well as people say he does. And the story simply isn't interesting. And call me an old-school boomer, but I will not sit through "interesting ideas" for a bad story lacking compelling characters. If I'm interested in an idea, I will read NON-fiction. It's like Sanderson learned the worst lesson of Wheel of Time, how to take your best characters, empty them of meaning, and then drag the plot out. Oathbringer is The Slog of Stormlight.
I respectfully disagree
What a useful comment. Guy makes 35 minute explanation of his views. You leave a three-word comment. Totally invalidating everything he said by saying, “I respectfully disagree.” What a genius you are.
I still need to read Oathbringer... The only thing I want from this book is....to start liking Adolin!
@@AndySmithMN thats a plus! I liked him slightly better at the end of words of radiance but I think that's bc I have an unpopular hope for where his character goes 🤣
Like people say, BS is an ideas man and world-builder, but his writing and narrative style have huge issues. I also felt the antagonists lack entity. They're blurry things which threaten a lot, but then... It reminded me of the WoT Forsaken: all bluster and no bite. In fact, I feel Sanderson is copying the WoT, but for the wrong reasons: too many too long books for the story he's trying to tell, excess of characters POVs and secondary story lines, a clear cut good vs bad thing (at least for now), returning characters that play no further roles. And yes, OB is the weakest so far imo. What bothers me the most though is that the main characters are starting to become superheroes, and that takes the edge of the whole story. Great review!
If you dislike this book because he doesn’t incorporate LGBT in the way you want, then that ruins all your credibility. The sexuality of the characters being your focal point is pretty shallow and empty - regardless of orientation.
100% agree with you Andy. It's my least favorite of the three.
Thank you, thank you.
Sanderson is the worst fantasy author i've ever read. I don't understand all the hype around him
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