First Take, Undisputed, all those debate shows are nothing but glorified comment sections in suits. All loud, and going for the punchlines the way you’d see on Facebook, IG, TH-cam, etc…. I definitely prefers pods like these on the Ringer.
@@Joes35 The strong opinions and hot takes creates conversation and generates views, likes, shares, and comments. Look at Skip. He's a COMPLETELY different person on his podcast than he is on Undisputed!
Curry gets more flack for playing with Durant, than Kobe and Magic get for playing with Shaq and Kareem. Which is crazy because if those four players are better than both KD and Curry, wouldn’t that be a point for Steph? I believe Curry and Kobe are the only players to win multiple championships without a NBA75 teammate on the roster.
@@fedeofeast3525 ehh idk about Pau, I think Klay should’ve made it tho; he’ll probably end his career trailing Curry and Harden for most 3 pointers made. Edit: After looking at basketball reference, I retract the statement about Klay finishing 3rd lol
People just hate Curry man. If he would’ve accomplished all he accomplished in the 70s and people were talking about him today, he’d solidly be in the top 10. And the Kobe asked for a trade as a penalty has nothing to do with basketball. That’s why it’s good just to listen to these videos as pure comedy because everyone is bias about their lists
Feel like Curry’s resume, when you compare it the all time greats and other top 10 players, is a bit unfair and doesn’t accurately reflect his dominance.
3 pointer has such an edge over regular basketball shots with a great shooter like him. The man shoots 40%+ regularly with lots of pullup and circuit shots. That means every Curry 3 pointer is well over 1.2 ppp. That by itself is a great functioning offensive. Which is why I just wanna see Curry's version of 2018 rockets team, where the opposing team have to gave either a curry stepback 3 or corner 3/dunk. On the other hand, I'm curious to see if there is any new player can replicate his success over 3 point line. It's easy to see physical talent like LBJ or Giannis, but his shooting and hand eye coordination is on another level.
As a former Rockets fan, you bring up an excellent point. Imagine Steph Curry instead of Harden in that D'Antoni offense! Or imagine D'Antoni's offense with the Warriors squad and you have literally the #1 and #2 best shooters of all time! That would be disgusting the amount of 3s and the records being broken!
indeed his 3 ball shooting looks like just about anyone can do that, but theres a reason why steph is so much better at shooting the 3 than even the best in the nba, its because he has the gift of hand eye coordination that other players simply can not match.
@@HegelianEpoch harden was washed last year He was one of the worst superstars. Let's see how he does this season. Nothing terrifying about him as he hasn't done shit in the playoffs. Curry has owned him since 2015.
Magic was immediately more valuable than KAB at that time. Durant was more valuable than Curry at that time. I love Curry man but this is not a winning argument
@@keano1416 KD was not more valuable than Steph. Steph was a big reason the Cavs cannot double-team KD because of Steph. Even Ty Lue said their first option was to stop Steph. He said, "You've got to remember, in 2017 and 2018 we blitzed him with Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson on the floor. That's how dangerous I think he is."
Steph Is Literally My Favorite Player In The NBA… For 10+ Years Now… But Debating Him Vs Kobe Is The Most Ridiculous Shit Ever Rings: 5 For Kobe, 4 For Steph MVP’s: 1 For Kobe, 2 For Steph FMVP’s: 2 For Kobe, 1 For Steph All NBA: 15 For Kobe, 8 For Steph All Stars: 18 For Kobe, 8 For Steph All Defense: 12 For Kobe, 0 For Steph Career Points: 33,000 Kobe, 20,000 Steph I Know Steph Is The Most Likeable Hooper & His Game Is Mesmerizing, But We Can’t Be Disrespecting History Or Longevity Like This… I Think Steph Might Be On Pace To Pass Kobe If He Stays On This Road, But We Gotta Let That Play Out… Cuz Rn This Shouldn’t Even Be A Real Argument
@@jackramsden9346 Only Stat I Used Was Points… Everything Else Was Accomplishments & Accolades… & If Not Stats, Accomplishments & Accolades, What Else Is There To Even Be Used During A Basketball Argument?
Is Using MVPs and FMVPs not you trusting other people’s evaluations of a player? These people being Mostly media members who u probably disagree with and are objectively wrong a shit ton. I just look at things like plus minus and net rating to determine impact on winning……. ( It’s Curry by a mile. Best winning percentage in the playoffs of any MVP ever. Never been swept or lost in 5 when Mike and Lebron have done that at least 4 times each. Since 14-15 best winning percentage in the most difficult conference. Always is at the top or close to the top of net rating. 6 finals in 8 years. 4-2. What’s Lebron’s finals record again? The dude who ran to Miami to create a super team & lose half the time, came back to Cleveland and lost cuz Steph’s MCL was fucked and their starting center went down. And then got a bubble “championship.” I’ll wait) What do your eyes tell u? Did they guard Kobe like Steph? Was his impact on winning anything like Steph? Go look at Steve Kerr’s record without Steph, including with KD, Klay, & Green without Steph. Go look at KD’s shooting percentage before and after Steph. Then with Steph. How many times has Steph beat a team you thought he had no chance of beating and then you saw the media pretend he was supposed to beat ‘em all along and you went with it? Now do the same for Kobe. The gap might be more than you think if you don’t use someone else’s accolades
@@thej1615 No Serious Basketball Person Uses Plus/Minus As The Top Priority In Analyzing Players… The Only Ppl That Do That Are Ppl That Just Started Watching Basketball… Cuz That Metric Is Too Inconsistent, With Too Many Variables… There’s Times A Player Is Playing Amazing, But Either His Teammates Aren’t Or The Other Team Just Isn’t Missing Shots, & So His Plus/Minus Won’t Reflect How Great He’s Truly Playing… & There’s Other Times Where A Player Isn’t Even Contributing Much, But A Few Of His Teammates Are Playing Amazing, & So His Plus/Minus Reflects His Impact Being Far Greater Than What It Actually Is… You Prolly Wouldn’t Know That Tho Because You Just Started Watching Basketball, So I Don’t Blame You… Draymond Green Has The Highest Plus/Minus Season In NBA History… Far Higher Than Any Season Even Michael Jordan Ever Had… I Guess Draymond’s Better Than MJ Now Huh?
@@thej1615 dude said plus minus 😂😂. When were talking about ranking the all time greats, you have to talk accolades. MVP’s, Finals MVP’s, rings, All NBAs and All defensive teams. That’s what counts
Giannis isn't top 10 yet, if he goes onto get another title and Finals MVP, he's someone then you can argue top 10, but in the meanwhile, no. I don't have Kobe in my top 10. I can understand Wilt being out of your top 10, but Bill Russell has to be in there. His success as the main anchor of the 60s Celtics is too great to ignore. He's the greatest winner of all-time. The greatest defensive player of all-time as well. The other great player you missed was Shaq, who was the most dominant offensive force the game has ever seen.
Giannis and Steph going apeshit in back to back Finals is so dope what a contrast in styles and showcases to the world how ridiculous NBA players are...freaks 🔥 from drilling 3s like layups from a 6'3 guy this year or Giannis with cartoon athleticism
They would be the perfect duo. As a Dubs fan I was hoping Giannis would leave and join us before he signed his extension. Could you imagine how many free dunks Giannis would get from the space Curry creates. But it ended up working out for both sides regardless since Giannis won the chip and then Steph won the chip, I’m definitely expecting a Bucks vs Warriors finals at some point in the next couple years.
@@westbronco9066 I was hoping for the same thing. Giannis to GSW. But you’re right it DID work out cuz if Steph won another ring with Giannis, he would never have gotten the same credit as he did in ‘21!
Just throwing this out there but is Larry Bird untouchable when they talk about taking someone off the top 10 list? They can talk Magic and Kobe but won't ever mention Bird. At age 34 Bird was pretty much done he averaged 20 but he wasn't the same player. Ijs an argument can be made that it's time to take Bird off.
I don’t have bird in the top 10. For me he is top 15. It’s crazy cuz 11- like 17,18 all have an argument to sniff 10. That’s like asking if Larry is untouchable as a SF? I don’t think so… Lebron passed him, where is Durant? Before him or ahead? What about DR. j if you look at the totality of his career including the ABA…. Interesting question tho
They were talking Kobe and Magic because they're guards. Bill gave his full top 10 and says he has Magic ahead of Bird, so if he's saying he thinks Curry could eventually pass Magic he's also effectively saying he could pass Bird. I think yall are looking for homerism where there really isn't any.
Honestly, Bird is one of the first guys I go to when you have the 'I have to kick someone off the top 10 lists' conversations. And looking at the biggest stats way too quickly, we can do Bird vs Curry right now. Rings: 3 For Bird, 4 For Steph MVP’s: 3 For Bird, 2 For Steph FMVP’s: 2 For Bird, 1 For Steph All NBA: 10 For Bird, 8 For Steph All Stars: 12 For Bird, 8 For Steph All Defense: 3 For Bird, 0 For Steph Career Points: 21,791 for Bird, 20,064 Steph It's insanely close right now; and Curry was on the one of like 3 teams (2017 Warriors) that could reasonably be picked to beat the 1986 Celtics. Unless he gets hurt, Curry will pass Bird comfortably.
@@late3253 curry gets guarded and demands attention just like any all time great player. The difference is teams overreact to curry disrupting thier defensive strategies.
People gonna bring up Kobe's All-Defense selections, but to me that's some BS because All-Defensive Team selections are mostly subjective imo. The objective thing is that Steph is the best shooter in league history, dude is literally the most efficient in converting the volume of shots he's taking, plus he also already has the most 3-pointers made in league history and he ain't even done yet.
Fax the fact that Kobe got 12 defensive selections to D Wade 3 is just laughable and why I think basing your argument on media driven accolades is incredibly flawed. I mean the media seriously thought Iggy had more of impact than Steph in that finals run. The media is wrong sometimes. Based on the eye test D Wade and Kobe were in the same ball park defensively. The 12-3 discrepancy is just absurd, but ppl will take that to the bank, confidently.
@callmecatalyst It's going to be difficult for the Warriors to win this year. They don't have the same chemistry as they did last year. But you never know.
if you're a GM on draft night and can see the future of Kobe and Steph's careers in their totality, you would pick steph every time. Even if you thought he was defensively inferior to Kobe, having the greatest shooter to ever play basketball who is also the greatest teammate and franchise player you could ask for is a no-brainer. You know that if you pair Steph with a big personality Shaq-type (a la Draymond) he'll support him, and if you pair Kobe with a Shaq-type, he'll chase him out of town. That's how you build the decade-long dynasty.
His style of play supports winning team ball. Kobe has always been known as a ball hog. He proved to everyone that him taking a fade w 2 defenders on him w 3 on the clock cuz he forced himself to make it. He practiced on it. But that isn’t winning ball cuz successful double teams kill your engine and your teams spirit, and Kobe forces his team into that situation more times than not. Steph Curry hasn’t ever really forced his team into that position cuz he’d rather hoist a 35 foot bomb with 20 on the clock in the 3rd and have him end his night not playing 4 quarters. Kobe’s one of those guys where you hate that he takes and makes every clutch shot in the game. Steph Curry made it seem like the best option you can do is let him shoot. Steph Curry let’s his teammates make that decision. Kobe takes whats his, even if it’s your shot.
@@smackddd3339 totally agree - watching games where Curry passes to red-hot Klay in the 4th quarter so that his teammate can break his own damn three point record is what makes this guy so special. Even lebron wanna play with Curry. Nobody wanna play with Kobe unless the ring is guaranteed.
Over their careers, Steph has shot better from the field than Kobe -- 47% to 44%; better from three point -- 42%-32% and free throws 90%-83. These differences might not seem like a lot but remember how many shots they each took. It adds up to a devastating difference. Kobe was just moderately efficient. Steph is supremely efficient. The silliness of minor numbers like Kobe has 5 rings, which is 1 more than Steph, isn't nearly as relevant in evaluating their relative value as shooting percentage. Curry is the best shot ever. Kobe was a ball-dominant and relatively inefficient shot. It's fair to say that Kobe was a better defender but that's canceled out by the much better passing, ball movement, screening and player movement that Steph does. All the other macho posturing stuff about who needn't or didn't need to be the alpha, or permitted another star to play with him is just noise. We're talking about basketball here not personality analysis.
I think the precedent of Magic being above Kobe despite being an average defender bodes very well for Curry’s Kobe case as I would argue he’s better than Kobe at pretty much everything else basketball-wise.
Magic's height made him an average defender when trying to check smaller, faster guards, but, on the flip side, it also allowed him to abuse said guards in the post and constantly create mismatches all over the floor, which made up for his average defensive capabilities.
Magic was just a walking mismatch in the 80s, on offense him just existing created insane headaches for opposing guards who were like 5-9 inches shorter than him.
I’m curious what else curry is better then Kobe at besides shooting and possibly playmaking? Defense is Kobe all day, both have unreal off the dribble shot creation, and kobe is a better rebounder and defender. I think it’s also fair to throw in that kobe is a far better finisher then curry ever has been. I think the argument is way closer than you’re making it out to be
@@naderebrahim3568 I just don’t think Kobe made his teammates better on Offense. Stephs gravity, unselfishness and ability to move without the ball just makes him a better creator of offense. I knows it’s a bit skewed by the era but Curry was also WAY more efficient.
I’m not trying to disrespect magic in any way. Just curious as to why steph gets discredited for winning with durant but magic doesn’t for playing with kareem. Kaj ranks higher than kd and worthy ranks higher than klay So maybe I’m crazy but that doesn’t really seem right when Ryen says it diminished steph
@@drewphillips2907 *draymond recruited. But ya i get your point, steph allowed him to join. But to be fair, what leader wouldn’t agree to make the team he leads better
I’d say it’s not that wide of a margin. He made a lot of those all defense teams kinda by reputation. Their efficiency numbers aren’t really too close. It’s Kobe for me based on longevity and defense, but I’ve seen enough film of Kobe blowing coverages to think his impact on that end is overblown.
@@aaronhedick4355 I’d have to agree with you on Kobe’s defense at the end of his career. Even during Kobe’s prime while he was a ball hawking pest he struggled mightily against bigger wings and size.
Players say those all-defensive selections are pretty sus and reputation-based though. I think it was KD(?) who said recently that he sees players selected for that who are literally the player his team’s game plan is to go after. I kinda wish that vote was players only.
The counter to the defensive stuff (which is probably a little overblown), is that Steph is a way more efficient scorer and better facilitator. He's also unquestionably a better teammate than Kobe. I think right now its easy enough to just give Kobe the nod in the H2H because he still has him in chip count but if Steph gets to 5 it'll be a really interesting debate.
Magic won so many games because he basically played on an all star team for a decade, there is another GOAT on the team too. But Steph career W/L is 545-281 @ 66%, considering the number of G-leaguers he played with and no other top 75 all timer apart from the 3 year with Durant. The context of Magic's greatness is not as impossible for Steph to reach if you actually look at the achievements based on what was given. Btw if you look at playoffs, Curry is @ 85% (22-4) series win rate vs Magic @ 80% (32-8). So I have to disagree that Magic is irreplaceable on Mt.Rushmore. Also, Magic wasn't the definitive best player in the finals when he won the 3 FMVP, you could argue he wasn't the best on 2 of those 3. Given the cards dealt to Magic and Steph, I actually think Steph's achievement is greater than Magic.
@@andylozano5193 still is an incredible stat, and he had no business taking the dynasty Spurs to 6 games with that 2013 team and if it wasn’t for a Manu game winner that series goes to 7
In terms of this century,,,I pick Shaq over Durant....the 3-peat Shaq was scary and he was very good for the '06 Heat...so let's not disrespect Shaq...Shaq / Duncan / Kobe / Lebron / Curry...and Harden doesn't belong in any of these conversations....and to expand on this...doesn't belong in any Top 75 list...what a joke to anyone who knows the game and has followed it since 1970....Harden / Lilliard / Westbrook / Davis....do not belong on any Top 75 list....all you so-called fans and basketball experts...go youtube Bernard King...
The winning percentage argument is BS. That is affected by where the team is when you get drafted. Magic goes to a 47-35 team playoff team. Bird went to a team that Red Auerbach had almost completely retooled. Duncan goes to the Spurs that prior to 96-97, were avg 55 wins a season the previous five years.
Go one step deeper like in the spurs case robinson was I Jared thats why they got the pick and tho he came back rookie duncan was already the best player on the team d rob was not what he once was
Exactly people always talk about magic was this and that that man got drafted to a team with Kareem Abdul jabbar on it then how tf did the lakers get the 1st pick and draft James worthy there definitely was some fishy shit going on in in the nba in the 80s they wanted the lakers to win magic always had hof teammates he never played on a bad team like Jordan lebron Kobe magic never carried shit
@@feedmyEgo_guts Not disagreeing that Tim wasn’t the best player when he came to the team, but no one can argue that Tim didn’t walk onto a team tailor made for him to win. I don’t think it diminishes Tim’s greatness, just that his winning percentage is boosted by the fact he drafted onto what was already a playoff team.
Duncan's team averaged 55 wins coz they had David Robinson. It's only when Duncan arrived they were truly a dynasty that lasted more than a decade with 6 Finals and 5 rings
@@geedoggydogg2372 yep. They tired to do the same with the Celtics with Len Bias before his tragic passing thr night after he was drafted. NBA was just trying to save itself with those two franchises.
Kobe and Russ: .482 efg and .471 efg. 11 all-nba, 9 all-nba. 2x scoring champ, 2x scoring champ. Kobe looks more like Russell Westbrook, less like Steph (.581 efg).
@@joedagg4495 I just went and looked at top efg in his era--Stockton, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Reggie Miller. All in the .500 club. So tougher league, some people figured it out, some didn't
May not be the most fair, but I rank my top 5 based off of "Starting 5": C- Kareem Abdul Jabbar PF- Tim Duncan SF- Lebron James SG- Michael Jordan PG- Magic Johnson
@@dusttaker Agreed, LeBron isn't needed on a team that already has Magic Johnson and MJ. This team needs a sniper like a Bird or a Kawhi. With Bird, you get not just an absolute marksmen, but also another playmaker/passer with brilliant offensive IQ. However, with Kawhi you get a sniper and his all world defensive ability. So it's a total toss up for me at the SF spot, but I think I would take Bird too because than you got two of the greatest clutch under pressure players ever on your team. I trust Bird more than Kawhi to make a shot for me, even though Kawhi is a great shooter too.
I guess the problem with this is that even if you agree that Magic is higher all time, putting Steph in his place makes this so much more well rounded and a better team
Ya need to stop it with the magic shit no other player has had more help then magic Johnson he literally got drafted to a team with the best player in the league on the team they were cheating for the lakers in the 80s there was no way in the world u win the championship and have the number 1 pick in the draft how tf did they have magic and Kareem and still draft worthy with the 1st pick nba wanted thr lakers to be the best team magic never was on a team without a hof every year magic had a great team around him he literally had a whole mvp on the bench magic didn’t carry shit
Curry had Durant, which made the Warriors more unbeatable in the playoffs from 2017-2019 than the Lakers were from 2000-2002, barring injuries. There's no way in hell the 1999-2000 Pacers take two games off the 2016-2017 Warriors.
I don’t know man, the Kobe - curry thing is touchy especially among players. If Steph gets another ring though, then I think most people would be comfortable putting Steph ahead… it’s really a comfort thing tbh. If KD had Steph’s resume, most people would absolutely have him above Kobe.
Ppl quick to say Kobe fans wont stand for this but look at the Bronsexuals literally wont move Bron on their all time list . Got him solidified at 2 some really sayin he over Jordan 😂… Whole time Steph boutta have more rings than him . BRONS SPOT IS NOT SOLIDIFIED THAT SHIT CAN GET EASILY TOOK
Kobe won multiple titles with 2 completely different groups (not counting D Fisher) which I think has to count for something unless Curry wins something ridiculous like 6 or 7
You can subtract from that in that the Shaq and Kobe teams had Shaq has BY FAR the most dominant player in NBA, much less his own team. And it wasn't even close. PERs of 30 range are sick, with very few guys reaching them. Also, by many metrics the 2nd three Finals trips for Kobe had him tied with Pau Gasol as the best guy on the team. Many make the case that Pau Gasol should have been Finals MVP in 2010. Not best for season or even the whole playoffs, but Gasol was best in the Finals, especially that butt ugly Game 7 where everybody on both teams shot like ass. (Kobe was 6-24, 0-6 from 3. People forget that Kobe would frequently shoot his teams right out of games, where Steph has the sense and humility to stop hoisting and do it other ways, like we saw in Game 5). Curry was by far the best player on three of those Finals runs and tied on the second three (Durant a better scorer, but metrics argue that Curry still had more gravity and a better plus/minus, especially since Durant tended to drag down the efficiency of those teams and efficiency of his teams with all that iso ball.) Never forget: awards and nominations and such are subjective and political. Otherwise certain guys would have far more MVPs and others none. Stats don't lie as long as you understand them.
Magic played on a loaded team for his whole career. Unlike Curry, Magic never seemed that he could do it without a Mt Rushmore team member (Kareem). Though Magic was the best player on some of those teams, even though Kareem should have won the 79-80 Finals MVP ………… I can keep going but I will say that currently curry is 10th, but it’s closer between him and Magic then both you are making it seem.
@@jerryjackson9148 go look at Magic accomplishments without Kareem. No championships without Kareem, No finals MVP without Kareem, No regular season MVP without Kareem, 1 finals loss without Kareem. Soon you will be saying that a curry is over Magic.
@@Wasju Kareem has 2 FMVPs 6 chips and 6 MVPs and only 1 MVP and one FMVP while playing with magic. All of his individual accomplishments were before magic. Curry is no where near Magic please go watch tape on Magic and you will see what a REAL point guard looks like. Curry is a SG playing PG everybody can see that
@@jerryjackson9148 in the 1980 finals Kareem averaged 33.4 points, 13.6 rebounds, 4.6 blocks, and Magic said Kareem should have been finals mvp. Kareem should have won the mvp and I’m not listening to any one who thinks that magic terrific game 6 should have given him the finals MVP. That’s finals MVP has an *. In the 1985 finals Kareem averaged 25.7 points, 9 rebounds, and 5 assist at the age of 37. I’m not saying that magic was not not great. I am saying that it’s not as far as ppl think. If curry gets another championship it would be hard to argue that Curry is not as good or better especially when Magic never did anything without the services of the greatest center of all time. Magic is greatest side kick of all time. But he did not play long enough to see what he could have without THE GREATEST CENTER of all time. Curry did it before Durrant and after Durant.
@@Wasju man I disagree. Without Magic who is a PG and a rookie at the time played Center and dropped 42 to seal the deal. Down play it all you want. And how is magic the side kick when he won more league and FMVPs than KAJ😂😂😂. And curry played with a another top 5 shooter of all time in Klay and he played with a top 15 player of all time in KD in his prime after they won 73 games and lost the title year I might add😂😂. Steph is no where near magic. magic played 13 years and went to the finals 9 times! And won five of them. Was FMVP for majority of them and snagged 3 Regular season MVPs along the way. Had it not been for his HIV stint he probably would have more. Magic generated offense better than anybody ever and controlled pace. This is why he had 3 FMVPS and is regarded as the best point guard ever and is on most peoples Mt Rushmore. People are just now saying curry is in conversation of top 10 after his 1st FMVP. Man stop you embarrassing yourself.
Kobe Bryant was a better basketball player there’s no question about it please stop this. Simmons has never liked Kobe, we get it, but they say some ludicrous stuff here. “Steph 8 to 9 years are better than any of Kobe’s” What??? Kobe scored 63 points in theee quarters and then 81 points the month after that. Kobe had Bynum averaging 5 and 5 in the playoffs, Odom, old Artest and Pau Gasol who is good but it’s not close to a Klay Thompson. This whole conversation is so influenced by recency biased and you are forgetting how Kobe in his prime was absolutely one of the scariest players to ever face. He is the best difficult-shot-maker of our lifetime, he was one of the best defensive players in the world for years, he was strong, fast, athletic, smart and best of all. He won!!! 5 times. What the fuck is this?
Curry has made a million shots tougher than Kobe’s and from further out and worth more. What if u put screens side by side and saw how Curry is guarded and how Kobe was guarded? The defense played on the player might tell u who EVERY TEAM feels is more dangerous. No matter what the players media and coaches say out loud
@@thej1615 They we’re hand checking Kobe when he was averaging 35ppg dude. If handchecking was still a thing Curry’s field goal percentage would drop by like 4 to 6 percent. Look at Kobe’s highlights from 02-03 you couldn’t stop the guy. That’s why MJ always said Kobe was that guy, Bryant was too stubborn and that’s why he couldn’t win without Shaq until 2009 but in his prime he was leagues above Curry. Give Curry Kwame Brown and Smush Parker and let’s see how effective he is
@@jrddog Who did they beat to get there?? Kobe beat the Jazz, Suns and the Celtics superteam in 2010. Then he torched the Orlando defensive juggernaut in 2009. Please stop overrating Curry its embarrasing
I guess "Kobe stans" means anybody with eyes who knows anything about basketball lmao These guys just lost all of their credibility. Bill has the same points about Kobe since 2005 like he didn't have a second part of his career. But at least he's a known Boston homer so you can't really take his opinion too seriously. For me it's Russillo who frustrates me the most. He likes to act like a smart guy when all of his opinions are very artificial. I mean the guy likes to dig up random advanced stats that he probably doesn't know what they mean in order to prove his points. The problem is that he picks and choose those stats to praise his favorites like Steph and CP while bashing guys he doesn't like. I bet you that I can dig up random stats to prove any stupid take I want, like that one stat about the Spurs defensive win shares being better when Kawhi was off the court.
Curry is six feet two inches tall, magic is six feet eight, LeBron James six feet eight, Kobe Bryant six feet eight, Stephen curry is top five...remember todays game is extremely different so what are you basing your facts on ? He is one of the best.
The lack of regular season accolades is held against him...that and games played during the regular season (load managing, injuries, etc.) Kawhi is one of the select few guys that plays his best in high leverage moments though. He's one of the elite 4 in the post Kobe, Duncan, Shaq era. That Elite 4 being LeBron, Steph, KD, and Kawhi...Giannis makes it a clear starting 5 All Decade team (him sneaking in on the back end of that All Decade team with all of the accolades he's amassed over the last 5 yrs)
It was literally unfair during that stretch of the Lakers winning 3 straight. Shaq was completely unstoppable and it was even hard for the refs to referee the game it was crazy 😂
@@demon238 if there was a "WCFMVP" back then, kobe would have won at least 2 of the 3. and if you watched the sport youd know the west finals were far tougher than the actual finals
Yah being universally considered a top 10 player of all time is major disrespect. Kobe stans are toxic. I don't even have Curry ahead of Kobe in my own personal rankings but its close. Its certainly close enough to debate.
yeah I have Kobe ahead of Shaq. Shaq couldn't play in the clutch because of his free throws. Also, the finals were terrible opponents for the Lakers, who cares if Shaq played better. Their real rivals were the Kings and Spurs in that era, and Kobe beat the Kings.
How many great seasons has Kawhi actually had in the past 10 years though? Certainly not as many as Lebron, Curry, KD, and Giannis. Probably not as many as Jokic, Embiid, AD, Harden, and CP3. I mean dude didn't even play this year. Can't trade on that fluke title forever.
Magic played with Kareem James Worthy Byron Scott and numerous other top 1st rd picks. Stop. Magic is extremely nice but Steph is Better. Shits borderline ridiculous now. All these rules that don’t apply to the people they’re trying to hold above them.
yeah I have Kobe ahead of Magic for this reason. Magic always had STACKED teams and never really carried a team to a title. Bird always had stacked teams, which is why I have Curry above him.
@@jrddog they weren't at all stacked this year man. No one picked them to win it all. Klay was inconsistent, Draymond was unplayable for large portions of series, including the finals. Otto is a role player, Looney is a role player, Wiggins is a good player but inconsistent offensively. This team was far from stacked tbh. The big x factor was Poole off the bench, that scoring was sorely needed, although he might be the worst defensive player in the league lol.
@@binary they weren't stacked this year but Ima push back on your statement that no one picked them to win it all. I took them to win it back in December lol. They were literally one of the first favorites once the season actually started.
As a fan of both, it’s a fair argument in either direction. I will say that Kobe doesn’t get enough credit for the 2008 gold medal. He was the Olympic MVP.
@@ckthegreat100 I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But what I remember in that gold medal game is that the US was in danger of losing to Spain w/o Kobe's clutch assertiveness. Let's not forget that they were only four years removed from the disastrous bronze medal finish in '04. That was without Kobe.
@@proseminded the Olympics is definitely an achievement but in terms of all time ranking we can’t put too much into it as team USA is literally just an all star team who doesn’t even really try and they still dominate 95% of the time. If Curry was out there playing with 4 other superstars and he had free reign to just shoot he would be so dominant in that setting
Quite possibly Curry can surpass Kobe in the next couple years but I feel recency bias is gonna affect people who already put him higher. It's Kobe. 5-2 in the finals, better defender. Not as efficient offensively but more of a scorer. And the accolades as they said 15 all nba selections, 11 1st team, is absurd.
You guys selected steph over Kobe.. The hate Kobe gets from the media, unbelievable. I def had more respect for Bill, I understand Ryan still young and not that bright. This is just terrible.
It’s hardly hate, a dude who was 2nd option for 60% of his rings and the best player for 1 season being top 10 shows how much respect he gets. But even with the ‘media hate’, it’s balanced out by the sheer amount of deluded ‘fans’ who think he is the GOAT, top 2, top 3 or even top 5.
@@binuv6799 You know those same people who claim Kobe is top 3 ever (dudes like AI, Stephen Jackson, Barnes) are the same ones who maintain Westbrook is an elite player and deserved MVP. Players in actuality rarely know the game. They are skilled, they don’t need to. MJ is the greatest ever, you know what else he is tho? The worst talent evaluator in NBA history. Remedy that for me? Players love Kobe because he was an Alpha male who was t afraid to take shots, their arguments really never go past that. He was a hoopers hopper is basically your point, which has no bearing on his actual impact
stop any lebron vs curry argument....curry's ceiling all time is 4th greatest player ever behind Lebron, Jordan and Jabbar. He needs to play 4-5 years at a high level, win at least 1 more regular season mvp and win the next 2 rings along with the finals mvp...right now, you cannot put Curry ahead of Kobe, stop it, prisoner of the moment...he is around 8-10 all time, which is still crazy
@@dominiquebrown2890 um nah he's not. Even taking into things like the 2000s were a slow paced era and his efficiency being pretty low makes sense, Lebron still has 4 MVPS and 4 FMVPS and Kobe was not the best player in the game for as long of a stretch. You can argue kobe over many players but I don't think lebron is one of them
@@tarunganesg9700 almost every player who has played against both in their primes have kobe ahead of lebron but somehow you expect me to take your opinion or the nerds in this video opinion serious. Lol stop. Pack your bags and gtfo we dont respect you. Btw do yourself a favor and go check out what grant hill just had to say about kobe.
@@dominiquebrown2890 and ja morant who plays against steph curry just said hes top 5. Well Imaybe Kobe has that killer instinct and all the nba players fear him, but in just pure legacy lebron has a better legacy.
I’m not upset about this, but is anyone else surprised that Garnett isn’t even mentioned in the conversation about best 21st century players? He was noticeably absent to me.
@@blblbluh4196 how many times have they gotten FMVP wrong though? When Cedric Maxwell won it in 1981 maybe? Iguodala over Curry perhaps? Finals MVP 95% of the time shows who the best player during that finals run was. And in 2017, 2018 there’s no doubt that was Durant, look at the stats and get back to me.
So you are saying "Kobe is obviously still better, but we prefer Steph, so that is our take." Ok. I love both men to the death, but nobody is as disrespected as Kobe in these lists. There is a reason EVERY single player puts Kobe even ahead of Lebron. This argument is somehow dismissed as biased., yet they are quick to remind that Kobe was generally almost hated even by his own teammates because of his ways. It is a twisted story, and makes me think about life in a different perspective. Just like they slander Steph on Undisputed for example. It is pathetic and unfair to the core.
@@dominiquebrown2890 NBA guys don't think Bill is an idiot. Bill is actually pretty well liked by players. They dislike the talking head guys like Skip Bayless who just throw out takes to stir the pot and get ratings. Bills just a basketball head. That isn't to say he doesn't get wrong from time to time but his general knowledge is pretty solid. As for what nba players have to say on the goat debate, I don't value their opinion much at all. Most players are too heavily influenced by their playing careers to be objective. Take IT and his views on MJ. He refuses to recognize Michael's goat status because he's still salty about they way the Bulls stomped them in 91 lol
@@jrddogthat was the stupidest thing I have ever read. Their influenced by their playing careers like that is a bad thing hahahah. And you couch dudes are somehow unbiased geniuses of basketball because you can read that LbJ has better stats than Kobe 🤣
It’s like the stat guys purposely tell half the story or miss details with Kobe. How can he be such a bad teammate but whenever he had a star teammate he won or lost to championship team. The notion that he wasn’t a good teammate to the smush Parker’s and Chris mhimms of the world is ridiculous cause he was never gonna win with those teams. No scoring sg and playmaking short pg wins by themselves. But history has shown that if you give them a star who is the first option or 2nd they’re instantly successful. Tell the whole story not just the parts you like and dislike.
What does knowing a teammate is bad have to do with being excused for treating like them shit? Duncan had no intuition dudes like Parker or Manu would flourish but respected them and made them feel welcomed. Kobe was a fucking atrocious teammate, outside the years he had good players, ergo that means he was a bad teammate
@@hardwoodthought1213 Duncan didn't speak to Ginobli for 2 years. He had no clue who he was and didn't give a shit until Ginobli proved how good he was. He said it himself.
@@danielgalea8499 Wrong, he kept to himself because he is naturally a shy guy who off the court engaged in MMA and Dungeons and Dragons. You’re actually referring to Parker, who said it with full intention of ribbing Duncan, a dude who wasn’t going to hang with a 19 year old French rapper. Now show me the person who said Duncan was a bad teammate or leader… the man has his own chapter in a sports leadership book, whilst multiple teammates have confirmed Kobe treating them like dog shit. Even dudes like Gasol who got on with Kobe when things went well stated he felt betrayed by Kobe in 12/13 when things went downhill Try again
@@hardwoodthought1213 I’m not disputing that Kobe was this “great”teammate . We can all agree his 2nd half was much better. My point is they’re holding it against him as if him being mean to kwame brown meant the difference between a championship or just playoffs. It holds no weight. Duncan and curry had great coaches and a system that allowed people to play high iq ball and flourish. We don’t know how they would react to an environment where the system is trash and the players talent level is even lower. Aka Kobe after Shaq. If you’re gonna hold something against Kobe. Keep it on the court. Like he didn’t use playmaking skills as much as he could’ve. But this bad teammate stuff is nonsense. I have more points but I’ll let you go 😅
Goat tier Jordan-greatest peak and prime Lebron-greatest career Rest of Top 10 Bigs (Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem) Perimeter (Magic, Bird, Kobe, Steph) * too hard to compare 60's with only 8 to 10 teams and no 3point line OG 60's Pioneers Top 5 (Russell, Wilt, Big O, West, Baylor) *also hard to compare ABA with the greatest players split between leagues *ABA goat Dr. J Just outside Top 10 Moses Durant Giannis Durant and Giannis would likely surpass Hakeem, Kobe and Shaq in my top 10 but only if they win at least 1 , possibly 2 more titles as the best player. Luka and Jokic are on their way to top 10 conversation in about 5 to 15 years at their current pace assuming they can win 2 or more titles as the best player in their career.
everything you said is facts. definitely think luka will surpass bird and jokics advanced stats are the best of all time i definitely see him winning multiple chips and being the best center of this generation and maybe all time
my top 10 based on who is better/ more valuable not just accomplishments which can depend on team placement and injuries and era. lebron jordan duncan curry shaq giannis magic hakeem kevin durant wilt i think putting bill russel here when his stats are absolutely doggy doo doo is ridiculous. people wanna show homage to old greats but dont realize hes a 6’9 that shot 36 percent from the field against wilt for his career and averaged like 10 ppg for his career. sure his rebounds are high but thats due to the pace which allowed average players to get 10-25 rebounds a game. wilt is just a genetic monster though so i have him top 10-12
I don't think KD's is going to be adding anything significant to his legacy at this point (i.e titles, MVPs). I think his legacy is set as a borderline top 15 or top 20 guy.
@@TElias5 i agree Wilt's talent , genetics and offensive skill makes me more confident he could be great any era but for that era i feel like there's evidence that Russell was a more valuable player for a team. Wilt was more of a ball stopping stat padder that was hard to play with during his prime. Overall, i still prefer to just separate that era anyway because the game and league was so drastically different.
More of content like this please. Love Bill Simmons. If you could make funny animations like you had at Grantland with Jalen to follow verbal content it would be amazing.
@@jhank0cean who of substance other than Shaq had a toxic and non-winning relationship with Kobe? Do you trust Smush, Kwame and Dwight over Pau, Fisher and Fox?
I think the thing you guys barely touched on is that Steph would play 3 quarters of most games from 2016-2018. He won games in 3 quarters. Not only that, i guarantee Steph would of averaged 35+ with the highest true shooting, after the finals loss in 2016. But KD came in and dropped his numbers, granted because Steph being the greatest teammate ever, chose chips>numbers
It’s crazy how many loops they have to jump through to make this argument. Kobe won back to back chips and almost every single player on that roaster played at their peaks with Kobe. Not only did he dominate his position for 12 years on defense he also did it on offense. Some the greatest scoring surges ever and 81 points. He won back to back with Pau gasol and against the Celtics big 3. Then we act like the three peat was no big deal. He average 30 points a game in the final at the age of like 23. This is crazy
Why do I keep seeing this revisionist history that Kobe carried those Lakers teams with him and Pau. Those rosters were deep, defensive minded, had grit, had size, and we're coached by the greatest coach of all time. Ppl talk like Pau was a scrub 2nd option but he was a walking 20 & 10 with good defense. No one wants to ever bring up the fact he bailed Kobe out in G7 against Boston. Kobe shot 25% from the field with 2 assist, meanwhile Pau shot over 50% while dropping 20 pts, 20 reb, and threw in 4 assist. Don't get me wrong, Kobe was def the driving force but that roster was excellent and so was the coaching. Kobe has had AWFUL finals performance just like Curry (04 pistons). He's also blown a 3-1 lead like Curry. He also has more finals wins without being the MVP just like Curry. Personally I still got Kobe ahead of Curry all time at this point, but Curry is breathing down his neck. Curry probably will pass him when it's all said and done. It's ok if Kobe one of your fav players, but it's crazy on your part to act like he on a different level than Curry. They sitting at the same table bro.
Travis’s ENTMT Did Kyrie bail Lebron in G7 of the 2016. Lebron shot just as bad of a % from the field that G7 just like Kobe did in G7 of the 2010. Kobe shot 6-24 in that G7 and Lebron shot 9-24 in that G7. Also Kyrie made the GW. Saying Kobe bailed out by Pau is just wrong
@@anthonycelestin3559 Bron had a triple double and made arguably the greatest block in NBA history down the stretch of that game. You coulda got me with Jesus shot in the corner G6 against the Spurs, but not with G7 vs GS.
@@Emon31415 why don't you ask Steve Ballmer who he would've rather had this year: Embiid: 30.6 pts, 11.7 rebs, 4.2 asts, 1.1 stl, 1.5 blk or Kawhi: 0.0 pts, 0.0 rebs, 0.0 asts, 0.0 stl, 0.0 blk
You guys mentioned TS% briefly, but it's such a simple yet powerful stat that doesn't get enough attention, especially when comparing backcourt players between each other. Kobe was amazing to watch when he caught fire, but he took so many bad shots. Steph's 62.4% vs Kobe's 55% says a lot. For reference, Magic 61%, LeBron 58.8%, Jordan 56.9%.
I like efg% as well. People just look at fg% for efficiency but that doesn't take into account the efficiency of a 3pt shot like efg%. If you look at the advanced stats, Steph is the greatest offensive player of all time and it really isn't that close.
@@realone296 yeah I'd assume jokic would be up there. But I'm assuming his stats will regress the longer he is in the league as he ages. He just had his best season ever.
'Makes those around him better...' Why is it that this statement ^ is commonly used when talking about guys who were playing with absolute stud, HOF-type players? Tim Duncan, Steph Curry weren't saddled with G-league guys. Duncan gets a mentoring from The Admiral then paired with Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli and Kawhi Leonard. Steph Curry starts out slow, almost traded in favor of Monta Ellis then the emergence of guys like Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala. Asking genuinely, are we going to believe that Manu, Tony, Klay, etc. weren't going to be good elsewhere?
Now as crazy as this sounds I’ve got Curry no.6 over Kobe. Kobe played 20 years and won 5 championships went to 7 and 1 regular season MVP Curry played 13 years 4 championships been to 6 and 2 regular season MVPs. Kobe is the obvious better defender, Steph is a better shooter and passer and they arguably the same scorer, their career ppg average is pretty much the same. Steph has made a bigger impact on the actual game of basketball everybody want to be a 3pt shooter. Also Curry pretty much sweeps Kobe when it comes to playoffs percentages and stats per game.
Kobe playoff stats from age 22-32 = 28.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 45.1 fg% Curry playoff stats from age 24-34 = 26.6 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 6.2 apg, 45.2 fg% I would call that less than a sweep.
@@5StarFlix Because "getting better" isn't only about points. Kobe is a much better defender in the regular season and playoffs. Comparing only PPG makes no sense. Especially when the 3p shot wasn't a big part of basketball in Kobe's prime. He would average 1-2 points more, because he would have taken more 3s.
Exclude the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (where Kobe was a teenager coming of the bench) and then look at their playoff avg. But why play fair if it destroys the whole argument.
Kobe is "greater" in many ways, but Steph is the better teammate. I'd rather have Steph on my all-time team, just because he'd play better with not being the primary option. Granted, Kobe sacrificed on Team USA, when needed, but I wouldn't expect that of him on a regular basis.
Bill such a hater every time he brings up Kobe or the Lakers. And then Ryan I have him ahead of Kobe behind Magic like wtf are talking about historic significance or who's skills or talent is superior. PS !UPLUAD FULL VOD YOUR COMMUNITY BEGS FOR IT EVERYSINGLE DAY NOW SINCE THE SWITCH MY GOD NO STATS CAN BACK UP NOT RELASING IT ON YT.
No disrespect to Kobe because he was an incredible player and was the closest we got to a modern day Michael Jordan, but Stephen Curry's impact and the way he shaped the league into becoming a 3-point shooting game puts him just a hairline above Kobe. And while the All-Defensive team selections will always be put over Curry because he's a "negative defender" (spoiler alert: he's actually a pretty net-positive defender, obviously not an All-Defensive level but good enough to hold his own), his impact by just being on the court on offense and the insane amount of off-ball movement he does to both get an open shot as well as confusing the opposing team's defense is on a different plane of existence, literally. Kobe, for a good chunk of his career, was all about the iso-ball and hero-ball style that we all grew up loving (don't lie to yourself because everyone shouted "KOBE" as a kid when shooting something like a crumpled up paper ball to a trash can) and we saw the limitations of that in the finals when Tatum did his best on doing a bad Kobe impression. Curry, on the other hand, could do iso-ball or hero-ball but it was never his main go-to move for playing basketball. He knows that he's just as, if not more, impactful off the ball as he is on the ball while on offense. That's why we say that Curry has a "gravity" to him because of how much the opposing team's defense has to bend in order to just slow Curry down. Don't get me wrong, Kobe was a phenomenal player and was my biggest hero growing up but Curry literally reshaped the league in terms of how basketball is played. Curry is above Kobe by the tiniest of margins, but I won't argue with anyone who has Kobe over Curry. It's really close. P.S. if anyone uses the "# of rings" argument as the basis of why Kobe is above Curry, then Bill Russell is above everyone and should be the undisputed GOAT. So find another slant.
@Beery Kobe had 36/7/7 in 3 quarters. You are saying that 37 against solo Bron was better?If Magic had put up a fight thats a 50 point triple double in the making.
Simmons is trying so hard to come up with any timeframe where he can say Steph was better than LeBron. Thank fuck Russillo wasn’t having it, he shut it down fast.
He talks about Steph having the highest net rating in most of their playoff runs, including ‘17 and ‘18 with KD, then in the next breath says at 3:31 “in ‘15 he was #2 behind draymond (in net rating) but that was also because of Steph” Why does that logic not work for ‘17 and ‘18 in favor of KD? “KD was #2 in net rating behind Steph but that was also because of KD” The net rating argument starts to fall apart there imo
Last 10 years, you can't forget about Kawhi. Perhaps more valuable than Durant since 2013. My lineup: Curry, LeBron, Kawhi, Giannis, Durant regardless of position. The next five best players of the decade I would pick are Harden, Westbrook, Jokic, Lillard and George. With Embid and Chris Paul rounding up my 12 man rotation.
Magic played on some of the greatest teams of all time for over half his career of course he won a lot but still tied at 5 with Kobe. I remember 10 years ago it was the overall consensus that Kobe was greater than magic. Magic said it himself many many times. Magic doesn’t have all the finals mvps either but somehow magic gets greater at a different standard.
First topic is kobe hate giving him the chance to put steph over kobe which bill felt before steph won this title lol..bill can't just take the loss to his celtics he has to deflect
Kawhi's better than half the guys you mentioned in the last 10 years segment. He carried a team past prime Embiid/Butler, Giannis and Curry to a title.
@@jrddog he also got robbed by the Warriors of another title when Zaza fouled his ankle. Kawhi was a bad omission and Bill and Ryen would agree on a second thought
@@ehafnerhell of a stretch to say he was robbed of a title. Especially since he pulled off the flukiest title in the history of professional sports. Reality is that while Leonard probably should be a top 5 guy in the league, he hasn't played enough for anyone to be able to say he is. Of the last 10 years he didn't play in two of them (technically played 9 games in one of those), and only played more than 70 games twice. He also didn't even rise to stardom until 3-4 seasons into that stretch. So no Leonard hasn't been a top 5 or 10 guy over the last decade. He probably wouldn't even make a top 20 if we're being completely honest.
@@jrddog pretty silly argument. I know another guy who missed a couple years in his prime and he’s considered the GOAT. No one cares about the regular season. Start comparing playoff numbers if you want a real debate And yes robbed 100%. Anyone who watched that game saw the Spurs were kicking their ass and looked like title favorites.
@@ehafner you can't just say the spurs were title favorites after half of one game. Yes Kawhi's injury was a big hit, but easily the warriors could have comeback the next game and one. Its like after the celtics warriors game 3 everyone was saying celtics in 5 etc but warriors made some small adjustments and they won. Thats why I also give him the 2019 title without too much of an asterik. Sports are sports and injuries are common.
And what do you mean they win all these games when he's out there...... When Klay was out and it was Draymond and the remaining cast.... Steph couldn't win any games they were like last 2 seasons ago in the league ... I can't with all the clowns that talk like this
@@naderebrahim3568 They missed the playoffs by a game. Kobe had a similar down stretch after Shaq left. Missed the playoffs in '05 and then got bounced in the first round in '06 and '07.
Last 10 seasons lineup: PG - Steph Curry // Chris Paul // Damian Lillard SG - James Harden // Klay Thompson // Luka Doncic SF - Lebron James // Kawhi Leonard // Paul George PF - Kevin Durant // Anthony Davis // Blake Griffin C - Giannis Antetokounmpo // Joel Embiid // Nikola Jokic
He's not Top 10 for me. He was be at w clear 11 spot. With that said, I think he easily could make an argument for 10-8. Which for me would be the Shaq/Duncan/Kobe range. Not necessarily in that order.
@@Mercurial. one of your comments is “Steph has never been a superstar and carried his team to a finals win” and all caps too. That alone lets me know, you’re just hating and not wanting to make a simple argument. The way the warriors offense has ran, and great defenses have played him. Is more than enough of an eye test
The fact that's Steph is 6'2 should definitely play a part because there's nobody close to the top 10 under 6'4. Also he played 3 years in college. I believe if those last 2 years if he was in the nba that would've done him better.
gotta laugh out loud at the revisionist bs around jordan. the 90s bulls were consistently the best roster in the era by far. The only team to have TWO great players for most of it, and the 2nd 3peat they had 3 great players. 90's was a watered down decade for the league talent wise, but he had by far and away the best roster. He can be your goat, you don't have to lie about what is objectively observable.
Yeah it was watered down because they were expanding the league which means peeps who wouldn’t have made the league before made it then. And that’s the league Mike had to play against after Scottie Pippen go there. He was 1-9 on the playoffs without him
@@jrddog yea you're right, the best defensive wing of that era and one of the 3 best defenders in league history also being on his team totally didnt help. Having more quality role players and more stars than everyone else totally wasnt an advantage.
LOL The Kobe disrespect is unreal. You can't just throw his defensive accolades out the window, defense is literally HALF the game of basketball. Net rating, efficiency rating...you know what's efficient, winning 5 out 7. You can't be a "bad teammate" and win as much as he did unless your saying he did it on his own which would be even more amazing. Lebron, the "ultimate teammate" gets credit for winning on 3 different teams as he should. Even though the star players he played with sacrificed stats he is a great teammate. That being said, Kobe had the same jersey on but won on 2 different teams and took a 3rd team that had no business sniffing the playoffs to the playoffs taking the 2 seeded Suns to 7 games single handedly. He had to do that by himself because he had Smush, Mihm, Kwame and Odom. Hence him demanding a trade ala Lebron leaving Cleveland because he had no help. The Greatest of all-time really isn't that complicated. You all make it complicated because your "bias" forces you to put random things in there to justify putting people you like ahead of others you don't who are actually better. Offense, DEFENSE, Clutch (meaning ability to take over, a game, take the big shots, big moments), intangibles, accolades and last but not least championships. There's 5 players who are Elite at all of it, in no particular order; Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Kareem, Duncan. Honorable mention Hakeem but 2 titles just isn't enough for this list or the top 10. Everyone else is lacking in one aspect or another
39 losses in 3 full seasons plus 2 championships and 1 runner up in 7 game series is FUCKING INSANE !!!
Excellent stat!
Wait are we talking about Steph or the Warriors?
@@user-dq3cb4iy6i he's referencing the warriors, but crediting to Steph. eye roll emoji
Hater detected.
@@RampageYI hater detected for pointing out Warriors stats are being attributed to one player on the team?
Better than first take and undisputed. Not going for hot takes, and asking great questions with enough time to explain responses.
First Take, Undisputed, all those debate shows are nothing but glorified comment sections in suits. All loud, and going for the punchlines the way you’d see on Facebook, IG, TH-cam, etc…. I definitely prefers pods like these on the Ringer.
Well that’s the formula for tv. Casuals wouldn’t watch this type of measured conversation on Tv. Sadly it has to be strong opinions and hot takes
@@Joes35 The strong opinions and hot takes creates conversation and generates views, likes, shares, and comments. Look at Skip. He's a COMPLETELY different person on his podcast than he is on Undisputed!
First fake is a big reason why the nba ratings have dipped. Too much Hollywood drama they hype up.
They sit and talk about the hot takes. Most of these aren{t much better takes
Steph sat the 4th quarter for almost an entire season in 2016..(because they blew every team out by 30 at halftime
wow one season lol. Kobe 11 time all nba 1st team
You’re over here comparing apples to dicks
Curry gets more flack for playing with Durant, than Kobe and Magic get for playing with Shaq and Kareem. Which is crazy because if those four players are better than both KD and Curry, wouldn’t that be a point for Steph? I believe Curry and Kobe are the only players to win multiple championships without a NBA75 teammate on the roster.
gasol and klay for me are top 75
@@fedeofeast3525 ehh idk about Pau, I think Klay should’ve made it tho; he’ll probably end his career trailing Curry and Harden for most 3 pointers made.
Edit: After looking at basketball reference, I retract the statement about Klay finishing 3rd lol
People just hate Curry man. If he would’ve accomplished all he accomplished in the 70s and people were talking about him today, he’d solidly be in the top 10. And the Kobe asked for a trade as a penalty has nothing to do with basketball. That’s why it’s good just to listen to these videos as pure comedy because everyone is bias about their lists
Without mj, rodman and pippen doesn't make the all nba 75 list
gasol and draymond should have made the list
Feel like Curry’s resume, when you compare it the all time greats and other top 10 players, is a bit unfair and doesn’t accurately reflect his dominance.
3 pointer has such an edge over regular basketball shots with a great shooter like him. The man shoots 40%+ regularly with lots of pullup and circuit shots. That means every Curry 3 pointer is well over 1.2 ppp. That by itself is a great functioning offensive. Which is why I just wanna see Curry's version of 2018 rockets team, where the opposing team have to gave either a curry stepback 3 or corner 3/dunk. On the other hand, I'm curious to see if there is any new player can replicate his success over 3 point line. It's easy to see physical talent like LBJ or Giannis, but his shooting and hand eye coordination is on another level.
As a former Rockets fan, you bring up an excellent point. Imagine Steph Curry instead of Harden in that D'Antoni offense! Or imagine D'Antoni's offense with the Warriors squad and you have literally the #1 and #2 best shooters of all time! That would be disgusting the amount of 3s and the records being broken!
indeed his 3 ball shooting looks like just about anyone can do that, but theres a reason why steph is so much better at shooting the 3 than even the best in the nba, its because he has the gift of hand eye coordination that other players simply can not match.
@@TheUltimateRage If Harden embraced his midrange shooting more and worked off of the ball he would be even more terrifying.
@@HegelianEpoch harden was washed last year He was one of the worst superstars. Let's see how he does this season. Nothing terrifying about him as he hasn't done shit in the playoffs. Curry has owned him since 2015.
Steph is not better than Kobe lol
Magic played with Kareem or did y’all just forget that? Lmao Give Steph Kareem and see what happens, league would be done.
And give Magic KD, Draymond, Klay, and see what happens
Magic was immediately more valuable than KAB at that time.
Durant was more valuable than Curry at that time.
I love Curry man but this is not a winning argument
Tbf, there’s no argument as to how good he was if you just watch Magic play
I'm thinking the samething
@@keano1416 KD was not more valuable than Steph. Steph was a big reason the Cavs cannot double-team KD because of Steph. Even Ty Lue said their first option was to stop Steph. He said, "You've got to remember, in 2017 and 2018 we blitzed him with Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson on the floor. That's how dangerous I think he is."
Steph Is Literally My Favorite Player In The NBA… For 10+ Years Now… But Debating Him Vs Kobe Is The Most Ridiculous Shit Ever
Rings: 5 For Kobe, 4 For Steph
MVP’s: 1 For Kobe, 2 For Steph
FMVP’s: 2 For Kobe, 1 For Steph
All NBA: 15 For Kobe, 8 For Steph
All Stars: 18 For Kobe, 8 For Steph
All Defense: 12 For Kobe, 0 For Steph
Career Points: 33,000 Kobe, 20,000 Steph
I Know Steph Is The Most Likeable Hooper & His Game Is Mesmerizing, But We Can’t Be Disrespecting History Or Longevity Like This… I Think Steph Might Be On Pace To Pass Kobe If He Stays On This Road, But We Gotta Let That Play Out… Cuz Rn This Shouldn’t Even Be A Real Argument
IMO, you can’t use stats for someone as an argument if the person hasn’t finished their career yet…
@@jackramsden9346 Only Stat I Used Was Points… Everything Else Was Accomplishments & Accolades…
& If Not Stats, Accomplishments & Accolades, What Else Is There To Even Be Used During A Basketball Argument?
Is Using MVPs and FMVPs not you trusting other people’s evaluations of a player? These people being Mostly media members who u probably disagree with and are objectively wrong a shit ton. I just look at things like plus minus and net rating to determine impact on winning…….
( It’s Curry by a mile. Best winning percentage in the playoffs of any MVP ever. Never been swept or lost in 5 when Mike and Lebron have done that at least 4 times each. Since 14-15 best winning percentage in the most difficult conference. Always is at the top or close to the top of net rating. 6 finals in 8 years. 4-2. What’s Lebron’s finals record again? The dude who ran to Miami to create a super team & lose half the time, came back to Cleveland and lost cuz Steph’s MCL was fucked and their starting center went down. And then got a bubble “championship.” I’ll wait)
What do your eyes tell u? Did they guard Kobe like Steph? Was his impact on winning anything like Steph? Go look at Steve Kerr’s record without Steph, including with KD, Klay, & Green without Steph. Go look at KD’s shooting percentage before and after Steph. Then with Steph. How many times has Steph beat a team you thought he had no chance of beating and then you saw the media pretend he was supposed to beat ‘em all along and you went with it?
Now do the same for Kobe. The gap might be more than you think if you don’t use someone else’s accolades
@@thej1615 No Serious Basketball Person Uses Plus/Minus As The Top Priority In Analyzing Players… The Only Ppl That Do That Are Ppl That Just Started Watching Basketball… Cuz That Metric Is Too Inconsistent, With Too Many Variables… There’s Times A Player Is Playing Amazing, But Either His Teammates Aren’t Or The Other Team Just Isn’t Missing Shots, & So His Plus/Minus Won’t Reflect How Great He’s Truly Playing… & There’s Other Times Where A Player Isn’t Even Contributing Much, But A Few Of His Teammates Are Playing Amazing, & So His Plus/Minus Reflects His Impact Being Far Greater Than What It Actually Is…
You Prolly Wouldn’t Know That Tho Because You Just Started Watching Basketball, So I Don’t Blame You… Draymond Green Has The Highest Plus/Minus Season In NBA History… Far Higher Than Any Season Even Michael Jordan Ever Had… I Guess Draymond’s Better Than MJ Now Huh?
@@thej1615 dude said plus minus 😂😂. When were talking about ranking the all time greats, you have to talk accolades. MVP’s, Finals MVP’s, rings, All NBAs and All defensive teams. That’s what counts
I do my top 10 by position.
PG: Magic-Steph
SG: MJ-Kobe
SF: LeBron-Bird
PF: Duncan-Giannis
C:Kareem-Hakeem
Giannis isn't top 10 yet, if he goes onto get another title and Finals MVP, he's someone then you can argue top 10, but in the meanwhile, no. I don't have Kobe in my top 10. I can understand Wilt being out of your top 10, but Bill Russell has to be in there. His success as the main anchor of the 60s Celtics is too great to ignore. He's the greatest winner of all-time. The greatest defensive player of all-time as well. The other great player you missed was Shaq, who was the most dominant offensive force the game has ever seen.
@@QuestionEverything562 I didn't miss anyone. I picked who I picked
Man, Center should have O’Neal as top 10.
No disrespect to giannis but he’s already the 2nd best power foward ever? I’d say Karl Malone and dirk over him at least now.
@@tjjohnson6772 terrible list curry is better than isiah and Stockton
Steph had a lot of injuries
Everybody forgot about it
That's why he doesn't have all-nba and all-star selections
And he is still writing his legacy
yeah that ankle has been a pain in the ass early on, but I guess the ability to stay healthy is part of the discussion too?
@@verteidigungsblock he’s been for the most part healthy since 2014. Which is when they began the title runs
Giannis and Steph going apeshit in back to back Finals is so dope what a contrast in styles and showcases to the world how ridiculous NBA players are...freaks 🔥 from drilling 3s like layups from a 6'3 guy this year or Giannis with cartoon athleticism
They would be the perfect duo. As a Dubs fan I was hoping Giannis would leave and join us before he signed his extension. Could you imagine how many free dunks Giannis would get from the space Curry creates. But it ended up working out for both sides regardless since Giannis won the chip and then Steph won the chip, I’m definitely expecting a Bucks vs Warriors finals at some point in the next couple years.
@@westbronco9066 I was hoping for the same thing. Giannis to GSW. But you’re right it DID work out cuz if Steph won another ring with Giannis, he would never have gotten the same credit as he did in ‘21!
@@joonpak that’s very true the haters would’ve slandered Steph for that, there’s nothing they can say after last season
Just throwing this out there but is Larry Bird untouchable when they talk about taking someone off the top 10 list? They can talk Magic and Kobe but won't ever mention Bird. At age 34 Bird was pretty much done he averaged 20 but he wasn't the same player. Ijs an argument can be made that it's time to take Bird off.
I don’t have bird in the top 10. For me he is top 15. It’s crazy cuz 11- like 17,18 all have an argument to sniff 10. That’s like asking if Larry is untouchable as a SF? I don’t think so… Lebron passed him, where is Durant? Before him or ahead? What about DR. j if you look at the totality of his career including the ABA…. Interesting question tho
What do you expect they’re boston guys
They were talking Kobe and Magic because they're guards. Bill gave his full top 10 and says he has Magic ahead of Bird, so if he's saying he thinks Curry could eventually pass Magic he's also effectively saying he could pass Bird. I think yall are looking for homerism where there really isn't any.
Honestly, Bird is one of the first guys I go to when you have the 'I have to kick someone off the top 10 lists' conversations. And looking at the biggest stats way too quickly, we can do Bird vs Curry right now.
Rings: 3 For Bird, 4 For Steph
MVP’s: 3 For Bird, 2 For Steph
FMVP’s: 2 For Bird, 1 For Steph
All NBA: 10 For Bird, 8 For Steph
All Stars: 12 For Bird, 8 For Steph
All Defense: 3 For Bird, 0 For Steph
Career Points: 21,791 for Bird, 20,064 Steph
It's insanely close right now; and Curry was on the one of like 3 teams (2017 Warriors) that could reasonably be picked to beat the 1986 Celtics. Unless he gets hurt, Curry will pass Bird comfortably.
Yes, Larry Bird is untouchable. In his prime he was better than Magic and a clutch time killer. Unlike Steph
that 2017 team went 16-1 throughout the playoffs.
they’re right. GSW didn’t need KD that year.
Kobe averaged 27 in the playoffs while his team average 95. That’s why the numbers need context
Yea but his shooting percentage was terrible.
@@michaelmaniloff9297 go look at the defensive area he played in the 2000s
The defense they play on curry is like nobody else in the league he is in the 2000 by himself because of how teams guard him
@@late3253 curry gets guarded and demands attention just like any all time great player. The difference is teams overreact to curry disrupting thier defensive strategies.
@@djdoc06 I wouldn’t agree with that you definitely need shooters and you you need a half court guy like Wiggins and Barnes
People gonna bring up Kobe's All-Defense selections, but to me that's some BS because All-Defensive Team selections are mostly subjective imo. The objective thing is that Steph is the best shooter in league history, dude is literally the most efficient in converting the volume of shots he's taking, plus he also already has the most 3-pointers made in league history and he ain't even done yet.
I always thought Kobe was a bit overrated. Lots of media driven hype around "next jordan".
Fax the fact that Kobe got 12 defensive selections to D Wade 3 is just laughable and why I think basing your argument on media driven accolades is incredibly flawed. I mean the media seriously thought Iggy had more of impact than Steph in that finals run. The media is wrong sometimes.
Based on the eye test D Wade and Kobe were in the same ball park defensively. The 12-3 discrepancy is just absurd, but ppl will take that to the bank, confidently.
@@Travsice FACTS. I appreciate Kobe's greatness as a player, but some fans just overrate him too much that it's getting ridiculous.
@@Travsice Wade was the best shot blocking guard in nba history.
Steph’s career is not over. I can see him transitioning to being a great 6th man in the last years of his career.
@callmecatalyst It's going to be difficult for the Warriors to win this year. They don't have the same chemistry as they did last year. But you never know.
if you're a GM on draft night and can see the future of Kobe and Steph's careers in their totality, you would pick steph every time. Even if you thought he was defensively inferior to Kobe, having the greatest shooter to ever play basketball who is also the greatest teammate and franchise player you could ask for is a no-brainer. You know that if you pair Steph with a big personality Shaq-type (a la Draymond) he'll support him, and if you pair Kobe with a Shaq-type, he'll chase him out of town. That's how you build the decade-long dynasty.
His style of play supports winning team ball. Kobe has always been known as a ball hog. He proved to everyone that him taking a fade w 2 defenders on him w 3 on the clock cuz he forced himself to make it. He practiced on it. But that isn’t winning ball cuz successful double teams kill your engine and your teams spirit, and Kobe forces his team into that situation more times than not. Steph Curry hasn’t ever really forced his team into that position cuz he’d rather hoist a 35 foot bomb with 20 on the clock in the 3rd and have him end his night not playing 4 quarters. Kobe’s one of those guys where you hate that he takes and makes every clutch shot in the game. Steph Curry made it seem like the best option you can do is let him shoot. Steph Curry let’s his teammates make that decision. Kobe takes whats his, even if it’s your shot.
@@smackddd3339 totally agree - watching games where Curry passes to red-hot Klay in the 4th quarter so that his teammate can break his own damn three point record is what makes this guy so special. Even lebron wanna play with Curry. Nobody wanna play with Kobe unless the ring is guaranteed.
Stay in school, kids
Kobes more fun to watch and way better defensively….also 5 chips
Over their careers, Steph has shot better from the field than Kobe -- 47% to 44%; better from three point -- 42%-32% and free throws 90%-83. These differences might not seem like a lot but remember how many shots they each took. It adds up to a devastating difference.
Kobe was just moderately efficient. Steph is supremely efficient.
The silliness of minor numbers like Kobe has 5 rings, which is 1 more than Steph, isn't nearly as relevant in evaluating their relative value as shooting percentage. Curry is the best shot ever. Kobe was a ball-dominant and relatively inefficient shot.
It's fair to say that Kobe was a better defender but that's canceled out by the much better passing, ball movement, screening and player movement that Steph does.
All the other macho posturing stuff about who needn't or didn't need to be the alpha, or permitted another star to play with him is just noise. We're talking about basketball here not personality analysis.
I think the precedent of Magic being above Kobe despite being an average defender bodes very well for Curry’s Kobe case as I would argue he’s better than Kobe at pretty much everything else basketball-wise.
Magic's height made him an average defender when trying to check smaller, faster guards, but, on the flip side, it also allowed him to abuse said guards in the post and constantly create mismatches all over the floor, which made up for his average defensive capabilities.
Magic was just a walking mismatch in the 80s, on offense him just existing created insane headaches for opposing guards who were like 5-9 inches shorter than him.
I’m curious what else curry is better then Kobe at besides shooting and possibly playmaking? Defense is Kobe all day, both have unreal off the dribble shot creation, and kobe is a better rebounder and defender. I think it’s also fair to throw in that kobe is a far better finisher then curry ever has been. I think the argument is way closer than you’re making it out to be
@@naderebrahim3568 Kobe had an arsenal of post moves as well. Curry doesn't even know what the post is. Lol.
@@naderebrahim3568 I just don’t think Kobe made his teammates better on Offense. Stephs gravity, unselfishness and ability to move without the ball just makes him a better creator of offense. I knows it’s a bit skewed by the era but Curry was also WAY more efficient.
I’m not trying to disrespect magic in any way. Just curious as to why steph gets discredited for winning with durant but magic doesn’t for playing with kareem.
Kaj ranks higher than kd and worthy ranks higher than klay
So maybe I’m crazy but that doesn’t really seem right when Ryen says it diminished steph
Magic had no choice but to play with them.
But i don't think its fair to discredit Steph because he beat and outplayed Durant b4 he joined
Bc Steph recruited Durant after falling on his face against Cavs. Kobe didn’t recruit Shaq and Magic didn’t recruit Kareem
@@drewphillips2907 that's a lie. Stop hating. Stop D riding
I think it's because Magic was clearly the better player when those two played together. Steph and KD was a toss up leaning KD
@@drewphillips2907 *draymond recruited. But ya i get your point, steph allowed him to join.
But to be fair, what leader wouldn’t agree to make the team he leads better
RIP Kobe 🙏🏽🙏🏽🐐🐐🐐
Kobe is still better by quite a margin. His first team all defense selections make this not close. Defense is overlooked way too much.
I’d say it’s not that wide of a margin. He made a lot of those all defense teams kinda by reputation. Their efficiency numbers aren’t really too close. It’s Kobe for me based on longevity and defense, but I’ve seen enough film of Kobe blowing coverages to think his impact on that end is overblown.
@@aaronhedick4355 I’d have to agree with you on Kobe’s defense at the end of his career. Even during Kobe’s prime while he was a ball hawking pest he struggled mightily against bigger wings and size.
Players say those all-defensive selections are pretty sus and reputation-based though. I think it was KD(?) who said recently that he sees players selected for that who are literally the player his team’s game plan is to go after. I kinda wish that vote was players only.
The counter to the defensive stuff (which is probably a little overblown), is that Steph is a way more efficient scorer and better facilitator. He's also unquestionably a better teammate than Kobe. I think right now its easy enough to just give Kobe the nod in the H2H because he still has him in chip count but if Steph gets to 5 it'll be a really interesting debate.
Magic won so many games because he basically played on an all star team for a decade, there is another GOAT on the team too. But Steph career W/L is 545-281 @ 66%, considering the number of G-leaguers he played with and no other top 75 all timer apart from the 3 year with Durant. The context of Magic's greatness is not as impossible for Steph to reach if you actually look at the achievements based on what was given. Btw if you look at playoffs, Curry is @ 85% (22-4) series win rate vs Magic @ 80% (32-8). So I have to disagree that Magic is irreplaceable on Mt.Rushmore. Also, Magic wasn't the definitive best player in the finals when he won the 3 FMVP, you could argue he wasn't the best on 2 of those 3. Given the cards dealt to Magic and Steph, I actually think Steph's achievement is greater than Magic.
let's do a deal: if you watched live magic in the 80s you win your case, if you haven't, you withdraw
@@MatthewMShall hell Steph still gets slandered for 2016 despite playing thru injury
Steph also hasn’t lost a series in less than 6 but then again the payoffs were different back then
@@andylozano5193 still is an incredible stat, and he had no business taking the dynasty Spurs to 6 games with that 2013 team and if it wasn’t for a Manu game winner that series goes to 7
In terms of this century,,,I pick Shaq over Durant....the 3-peat Shaq was scary and he was very good for the '06 Heat...so let's not disrespect Shaq...Shaq / Duncan / Kobe / Lebron / Curry...and Harden doesn't belong in any of these conversations....and to expand on this...doesn't belong in any Top 75 list...what a joke to anyone who knows the game and has followed it since 1970....Harden / Lilliard / Westbrook / Davis....do not belong on any Top 75 list....all you so-called fans and basketball experts...go youtube Bernard King...
The winning percentage argument is BS. That is affected by where the team is when you get drafted. Magic goes to a 47-35 team playoff team. Bird went to a team that Red Auerbach had almost completely retooled. Duncan goes to the Spurs that prior to 96-97, were avg 55 wins a season the previous five years.
Go one step deeper like in the spurs case robinson was I Jared thats why they got the pick and tho he came back rookie duncan was already the best player on the team d rob was not what he once was
Exactly people always talk about magic was this and that that man got drafted to a team with Kareem Abdul jabbar on it then how tf did the lakers get the 1st pick and draft James worthy there definitely was some fishy shit going on in in the nba in the 80s they wanted the lakers to win magic always had hof teammates he never played on a bad team like Jordan lebron Kobe magic never carried shit
@@feedmyEgo_guts Not disagreeing that Tim wasn’t the best player when he came to the team, but no one can argue that Tim didn’t walk onto a team tailor made for him to win. I don’t think it diminishes Tim’s greatness, just that his winning percentage is boosted by the fact he drafted onto what was already a playoff team.
Duncan's team averaged 55 wins coz they had David Robinson. It's only when Duncan arrived they were truly a dynasty that lasted more than a decade with 6 Finals and 5 rings
@@geedoggydogg2372 yep. They tired to do the same with the Celtics with Len Bias before his tragic passing thr night after he was drafted. NBA was just trying to save itself with those two franchises.
Kobe and Russ: .482 efg and .471 efg. 11 all-nba, 9 all-nba. 2x scoring champ, 2x scoring champ. Kobe looks more like Russell Westbrook, less like Steph (.581 efg).
Kobe’s efficiency is one of the worst of the all time greats but Kobe is nothing like Russ..
Kobe also played in an era where scoring efficiency was all time low and defense was all time high. Which puts him well above Russ.
@@joedagg4495 good point, you're right
@@joedagg4495 I just went and looked at top efg in his era--Stockton, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Reggie Miller. All in the .500 club. So tougher league, some people figured it out, some didn't
@@Ceeloy interesting. Just shows how offensively dominant good 3pt shooting is.
May not be the most fair, but I rank my top 5 based off of "Starting 5":
C- Kareem Abdul Jabbar
PF- Tim Duncan
SF- Lebron James
SG- Michael Jordan
PG- Magic Johnson
Who's the outside shooter on your team? Who makes threes?
@@QuestionEverything562 yup put Bird over Lebron ... problem solved!
@@dusttaker Agreed, LeBron isn't needed on a team that already has Magic Johnson and MJ. This team needs a sniper like a Bird or a Kawhi. With Bird, you get not just an absolute marksmen, but also another playmaker/passer with brilliant offensive IQ. However, with Kawhi you get a sniper and his all world defensive ability. So it's a total toss up for me at the SF spot, but I think I would take Bird too because than you got two of the greatest clutch under pressure players ever on your team. I trust Bird more than Kawhi to make a shot for me, even though Kawhi is a great shooter too.
I guess the problem with this is that even if you agree that Magic is higher all time, putting Steph in his place makes this so much more well rounded and a better team
C-Shaq
PF-Garnett
SF-KD
SG-Kobe
PG-Curry
Steph Curry has surpassed Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, and Bill Russell.
2018 game 1 was the greatest individual basketball ever played when everything is considered about the team lebron was on vs the team he played
Yeah in regulation. He quit on the team in OT
Ya need to stop it with the magic shit no other player has had more help then magic Johnson he literally got drafted to a team with the best player in the league on the team they were cheating for the lakers in the 80s there was no way in the world u win the championship and have the number 1 pick in the draft how tf did they have magic and Kareem and still draft worthy with the 1st pick nba wanted thr lakers to be the best team magic never was on a team without a hof every year magic had a great team around him he literally had a whole mvp on the bench magic didn’t carry shit
How is Kobe ahead of Steph when he won three titles with Shaq?
Could you imagine if Steph Curry had shaq?
Curry had Durant, which made the Warriors more unbeatable in the playoffs from 2017-2019 than the Lakers were from 2000-2002, barring injuries. There's no way in hell the 1999-2000 Pacers take two games off the 2016-2017 Warriors.
I don’t know man, the Kobe - curry thing is touchy especially among players. If Steph gets another ring though, then I think most people would be comfortable putting Steph ahead… it’s really a comfort thing tbh. If KD had Steph’s resume, most people would absolutely have him above Kobe.
@@deniyii Yeah, I don't mean any disrespect to Kobe, RIP.
@@nocturne311 Good point about Durant. Somehow I forgot. It's nice he's won two without Durant. I think he's got at least one in him.
The ending, the last 10 years list, is so disrespectful to Kawhi.
Curry
Bron
KD
Kawhi
Giannis
Speaking from someone in their mid 20s and players that I’ve seen. He’s only behind. Lebron. Kobe.
U must learn go watch some more bec u never seen Kobe I his early 20's during the 3PEAT!
@@Mercurial. Did you even read the comment?
Ppl quick to say Kobe fans wont stand for this but look at the Bronsexuals literally wont move Bron on their all time list . Got him solidified at 2 some really sayin he over Jordan 😂… Whole time Steph boutta have more rings than him . BRONS SPOT IS NOT SOLIDIFIED THAT SHIT CAN GET EASILY TOOK
If curry gets 4 FMVPs then I’d put him above Bron, it’s definitely possible, curry just ain’t there yet
Kobe won multiple titles with 2 completely different groups (not counting D Fisher) which I think has to count for something unless Curry wins something ridiculous like 6 or 7
You can subtract from that in that the Shaq and Kobe teams had Shaq has BY FAR the most dominant player in NBA, much less his own team. And it wasn't even close. PERs of 30 range are sick, with very few guys reaching them.
Also, by many metrics the 2nd three Finals trips for Kobe had him tied with Pau Gasol as the best guy on the team. Many make the case that Pau Gasol should have been Finals MVP in 2010. Not best for season or even the whole playoffs, but Gasol was best in the Finals, especially that butt ugly Game 7 where everybody on both teams shot like ass. (Kobe was 6-24, 0-6 from 3. People forget that Kobe would frequently shoot his teams right out of games, where Steph has the sense and humility to stop hoisting and do it other ways, like we saw in Game 5).
Curry was by far the best player on three of those Finals runs and tied on the second three (Durant a better scorer, but metrics argue that Curry still had more gravity and a better plus/minus, especially since Durant tended to drag down the efficiency of those teams and efficiency of his teams with all that iso ball.)
Never forget: awards and nominations and such are subjective and political. Otherwise certain guys would have far more MVPs and others none. Stats don't lie as long as you understand them.
U think Steph needs 6 or 7 to pass kobe? He needs like 1 more
Magic played on a loaded team for his whole career. Unlike Curry, Magic never seemed that he could do it without a Mt Rushmore team member (Kareem). Though Magic was the best player on some of those teams, even though Kareem should have won the 79-80 Finals MVP …………
I can keep going but I will say that currently curry is 10th, but it’s closer between him and Magic then both you are making it seem.
Kareem only one one FMVP and one regular season MVP while playing with magic. Now go look at magic accomplishments.
@@jerryjackson9148 go look at Magic accomplishments without Kareem. No championships without Kareem, No finals MVP without Kareem, No regular season MVP without Kareem, 1 finals loss without Kareem. Soon you will be saying that a curry is over Magic.
@@Wasju Kareem has 2 FMVPs 6 chips and 6 MVPs and only 1 MVP and one FMVP while playing with magic. All of his individual accomplishments were before magic. Curry is no where near Magic please go watch tape on Magic and you will see what a REAL point guard looks like. Curry is a SG playing PG everybody can see that
@@jerryjackson9148 in the 1980 finals Kareem averaged 33.4 points, 13.6 rebounds, 4.6 blocks, and Magic said Kareem should have been finals mvp. Kareem should have won the mvp and I’m not listening to any one who thinks that magic terrific game 6 should have given him the finals MVP. That’s finals MVP has an *.
In the 1985 finals Kareem averaged 25.7 points, 9 rebounds, and 5 assist at the age of 37.
I’m not saying that magic was not not great. I am saying that it’s not as far as ppl think. If curry gets another championship it would be hard to argue that Curry is not as good or better especially when Magic never did anything without the services of the greatest center of all time. Magic is greatest side kick of all time. But he did not play long enough to see what he could have without THE GREATEST CENTER of all time.
Curry did it before Durrant and after Durant.
@@Wasju man I disagree. Without Magic who is a PG and a rookie at the time played Center and dropped 42 to seal the deal. Down play it all you want. And how is magic the side kick when he won more league and FMVPs than KAJ😂😂😂. And curry played with a another top 5 shooter of all time in Klay and he played with a top 15 player of all time in KD in his prime after they won 73 games and lost the title year I might add😂😂. Steph is no where near magic. magic played 13 years and went to the finals 9 times! And won five of them. Was FMVP for majority of them and snagged 3 Regular season MVPs along the way. Had it not been for his HIV stint he probably would have more. Magic generated offense better than anybody ever and controlled pace. This is why he had 3 FMVPS and is regarded as the best point guard ever and is on most peoples Mt Rushmore. People are just now saying curry is in conversation of top 10 after his 1st FMVP. Man stop you embarrassing yourself.
Kobe Bryant was a better basketball player there’s no question about it please stop this. Simmons has never liked Kobe, we get it, but they say some ludicrous stuff here. “Steph 8 to 9 years are better than any of Kobe’s” What??? Kobe scored 63 points in theee quarters and then 81 points the month after that. Kobe had Bynum averaging 5 and 5 in the playoffs, Odom, old Artest and Pau Gasol who is good but it’s not close to a Klay Thompson. This whole conversation is so influenced by recency biased and you are forgetting how Kobe in his prime was absolutely one of the scariest players to ever face. He is the best difficult-shot-maker of our lifetime, he was one of the best defensive players in the world for years, he was strong, fast, athletic, smart and best of all. He won!!! 5 times. What the fuck is this?
Curry has made a million shots tougher than Kobe’s and from further out and worth more. What if u put screens side by side and saw how Curry is guarded and how Kobe was guarded? The defense played on the player might tell u who EVERY TEAM feels is more dangerous. No matter what the players media and coaches say out loud
@@thej1615 They we’re hand checking Kobe when he was averaging 35ppg dude. If handchecking was still a thing Curry’s field goal percentage would drop by like 4 to 6 percent. Look at Kobe’s highlights from 02-03 you couldn’t stop the guy. That’s why MJ always said Kobe was that guy, Bryant was too stubborn and that’s why he couldn’t win without Shaq until 2009 but in his prime he was leagues above Curry. Give Curry Kwame Brown and Smush Parker and let’s see how effective he is
@@thej1615 you are TRIPPIN !
Bro Curry just carried the Dubs to a title and his 2nd best player was either a washed Klay Thompson or Andrew Wiggins. Just stop.
@@jrddog Who did they beat to get there?? Kobe beat the Jazz, Suns and the Celtics superteam in 2010. Then he torched the Orlando defensive juggernaut in 2009. Please stop overrating Curry its embarrasing
🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️bruh yall gotta stop it w the Kobe slander. If you watched Kobe live yk for a fact curry is just not on that level
Defense is also a thing dear god
I guess "Kobe stans" means anybody with eyes who knows anything about basketball lmao
These guys just lost all of their credibility. Bill has the same points about Kobe since 2005 like he didn't have a second part of his career. But at least he's a known Boston homer so you can't really take his opinion too seriously.
For me it's Russillo who frustrates me the most. He likes to act like a smart guy when all of his opinions are very artificial. I mean the guy likes to dig up random advanced stats that he probably doesn't know what they mean in order to prove his points. The problem is that he picks and choose those stats to praise his favorites like Steph and CP while bashing guys he doesn't like.
I bet you that I can dig up random stats to prove any stupid take I want, like that one stat about the Spurs defensive win shares being better when Kawhi was off the court.
Curry is six feet two inches tall, magic is six feet eight, LeBron James six feet eight, Kobe Bryant six feet eight, Stephen curry is top five...remember todays game is extremely different so what are you basing your facts on ? He is one of the best.
Kobe is better than steph stop it
Steph curry didn't have Shaq Kobe did Steph is better
No Kawhi for last 10 years??
seems everyone has forgot about kawhi
Over Chris Paul for sure
@@faroutsider24 easy to do when you don't actually play
Top 10 of the 21st century
Lebron
Kobe
Steph
Shaq
Duncan
Kd
Wade
Giannis
Dirk
Kg
KAWHIIIIIIIIII GODDAM, 2 FINALS MVPS IN THE LAST DECADE.
The lack of regular season accolades is held against him...that and games played during the regular season (load managing, injuries, etc.)
Kawhi is one of the select few guys that plays his best in high leverage moments though. He's one of the elite 4 in the post Kobe, Duncan, Shaq era.
That Elite 4 being LeBron, Steph, KD, and Kawhi...Giannis makes it a clear starting 5 All Decade team (him sneaking in on the back end of that All Decade team with all of the accolades he's amassed over the last 5 yrs)
and he hasn't done jack else
I'll take Shaq as the fifth on that 21st century team. Everyone forgets how ridiculously dominant he was in the early 2000s.
It was literally unfair during that stretch of the Lakers winning 3 straight. Shaq was completely unstoppable and it was even hard for the refs to referee the game it was crazy 😂
I think Bill lowers him because of his low FT %
@@Teffy2105 unstoppable until he met the cat tht sonned him… Big Ben. Oh and he was like 4-5 inches smaller.
I give Curry the nod over Kobe because he is better at literally everything other than Point of attack defense
so kobes 40 8 and 8 vs Orlando with zero turnovers wasn't a great game the dislike is weird don't u think
the disrespect is gross
The Kobe disrespect is just mindboggling at this point.
3 bus rider rings will do that
@@demon238 if there was a "WCFMVP" back then, kobe would have won at least 2 of the 3. and if you watched the sport youd know the west finals were far tougher than the actual finals
Yah being universally considered a top 10 player of all time is major disrespect. Kobe stans are toxic. I don't even have Curry ahead of Kobe in my own personal rankings but its close. Its certainly close enough to debate.
Steph has 3 bus rider rings too and he lost a finals mvp to Andre iguodala 😆
@@ryanjohnson8646 Steph created the bus you clown
Kobe scored the same amount of points as shaq in the playoffs during the 3peat all this shit lazy really
yeah I have Kobe ahead of Shaq. Shaq couldn't play in the clutch because of his free throws. Also, the finals were terrible opponents for the Lakers, who cares if Shaq played better. Their real rivals were the Kings and Spurs in that era, and Kobe beat the Kings.
the best over the last 10 years, is there a case for Kawhi for #5 or at least top 10?
Bro yes I was thinking exactly the same thing. Kawhi is on my top 5 past ten for sure.
How many great seasons has Kawhi actually had in the past 10 years though? Certainly not as many as Lebron, Curry, KD, and Giannis. Probably not as many as Jokic, Embiid, AD, Harden, and CP3. I mean dude didn't even play this year. Can't trade on that fluke title forever.
Magic played with Kareem James Worthy Byron Scott and numerous other top 1st rd picks. Stop. Magic is extremely nice but Steph is Better. Shits borderline ridiculous now. All these rules that don’t apply to the people they’re trying to hold above them.
yeah I have Kobe ahead of Magic for this reason. Magic always had STACKED teams and never really carried a team to a title. Bird always had stacked teams, which is why I have Curry above him.
Its a fair point about the Showtime Lakers being stacked but the Warriors have been pretty stacked as well.
@@jrddog they weren't at all stacked this year man. No one picked them to win it all. Klay was inconsistent, Draymond was unplayable for large portions of series, including the finals. Otto is a role player, Looney is a role player, Wiggins is a good player but inconsistent offensively. This team was far from stacked tbh. The big x factor was Poole off the bench, that scoring was sorely needed, although he might be the worst defensive player in the league lol.
@@binary they weren't stacked this year but Ima push back on your statement that no one picked them to win it all. I took them to win it back in December lol. They were literally one of the first favorites once the season actually started.
@@jrddog you and Stephen A lol. I had them as a 4-6 seed
As a fan of both, it’s a fair argument in either direction. I will say that Kobe doesn’t get enough credit for the 2008 gold medal. He was the Olympic MVP.
Come on man lol. You don’t get all that much credit for winning with a team that’s twice as good as everyone else
@@ckthegreat100 I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But what I remember in that gold medal game is that the US was in danger of losing to Spain w/o Kobe's clutch assertiveness. Let's not forget that they were only four years removed from the disastrous bronze medal finish in '04. That was without Kobe.
@@proseminded the Olympics is definitely an achievement but in terms of all time ranking we can’t put too much into it as team USA is literally just an all star team who doesn’t even really try and they still dominate 95% of the time. If Curry was out there playing with 4 other superstars and he had free reign to just shoot he would be so dominant in that setting
For the last 10 years argument Kawhi takes that 5th spot easily
Quite possibly Curry can surpass Kobe in the next couple years but I feel recency bias is gonna affect people who already put him higher. It's Kobe. 5-2 in the finals, better defender. Not as efficient offensively but more of a scorer. And the accolades as they said 15 all nba selections, 11 1st team, is absurd.
Also 12x all defensive. Everyone putting steph into top 10 and ahead of Kobe or lebron just don't care about defense
Exactly right. He dominated his position on both ends for almost 15 years. Thats unheard of
@@goseeaboutagirl 1 of 3 players to be 10x All Star, All NBA & All Defensive
@@no12578 exactly back then defensive metrics also weren’t as important and players would get all defense based off reputation
Not only that, but could Steph be so much better on Offense to make up for any difference on Defense? I think so.
Kobe is the goat
You guys selected steph over Kobe..
The hate Kobe gets from the media, unbelievable.
I def had more respect for Bill, I understand Ryan still young and not that bright.
This is just terrible.
It’s hardly hate, a dude who was 2nd option for 60% of his rings and the best player for 1 season being top 10 shows how much respect he gets.
But even with the ‘media hate’, it’s balanced out by the sheer amount of deluded ‘fans’ who think he is the GOAT, top 2, top 3 or even top 5.
@@hardwoodthought1213 yes balanced..stop with the nonsense.
People who actually play basketball understands greatness and that matters more.
@@binuv6799 You know those same people who claim Kobe is top 3 ever (dudes like AI, Stephen Jackson, Barnes) are the same ones who maintain Westbrook is an elite player and deserved MVP.
Players in actuality rarely know the game. They are skilled, they don’t need to.
MJ is the greatest ever, you know what else he is tho? The worst talent evaluator in NBA history.
Remedy that for me? Players love Kobe because he was an Alpha male who was t afraid to take shots, their arguments really never go past that.
He was a hoopers hopper is basically your point, which has no bearing on his actual impact
@@hardwoodthought1213 steph has 1 fmvp lol
@@faroutsider24 Your point? I never said Steph is better than Kobe
Y'all are out of control. Everybody gets more rebounds in a league without size... Y'all come with dumb takes
This take doesn't make any sense.
stop any lebron vs curry argument....curry's ceiling all time is 4th greatest player ever behind Lebron, Jordan and Jabbar. He needs to play 4-5 years at a high level, win at least 1 more regular season mvp and win the next 2 rings along with the finals mvp...right now, you cannot put Curry ahead of Kobe, stop it, prisoner of the moment...he is around 8-10 all time, which is still crazy
Kobe is ahead of lebron. Only these geeks will tell you different
@@dominiquebrown2890 um nah he's not. Even taking into things like the 2000s were a slow paced era and his efficiency being pretty low makes sense, Lebron still has 4 MVPS and 4 FMVPS and Kobe was not the best player in the game for as long of a stretch. You can argue kobe over many players but I don't think lebron is one of them
@@tarunganesg9700 almost every player who has played against both in their primes have kobe ahead of lebron but somehow you expect me to take your opinion or the nerds in this video opinion serious. Lol stop. Pack your bags and gtfo we dont respect you. Btw do yourself a favor and go check out what grant hill just had to say about kobe.
@@dominiquebrown2890 and ja morant who plays against steph curry just said hes top 5. Well Imaybe Kobe has that killer instinct and all the nba players fear him, but in just pure legacy lebron has a better legacy.
@@tarunganesg9700 lebron doesnt have the better legacy. Kobe won 5 ring in 7 tries with the same team. Lebron had to team hop and won 4 in 10 tries.
I’m not upset about this, but is anyone else surprised that Garnett isn’t even mentioned in the conversation about best 21st century players? He was noticeably absent to me.
Nah hes overrated, he wasnt good enough offensively to carry a team and would shrink when it mattered
Curry has the same number of rings as lebron, and this is without jumping teams
Also while only having 1 FMVP. Stop it
Curry has the same finals MVPs and rings as Tony Parker :)
Well tbf, I doubt Lebron would've jumped ship from GSW either lol
@@nabetse1999 lol FMVP is an award chosen by 8 NBA media members, most of which don’t shit about bball. GSW only win because of curry
@@blblbluh4196 how many times have they gotten FMVP wrong though? When Cedric Maxwell won it in 1981 maybe? Iguodala over Curry perhaps? Finals MVP 95% of the time shows who the best player during that finals run was. And in 2017, 2018 there’s no doubt that was Durant, look at the stats and get back to me.
So you are saying "Kobe is obviously still better, but we prefer Steph, so that is our take." Ok. I love both men to the death, but nobody is as disrespected as Kobe in these lists. There is a reason EVERY single player puts Kobe even ahead of Lebron. This argument is somehow dismissed as biased., yet they are quick to remind that Kobe was generally almost hated even by his own teammates because of his ways. It is a twisted story, and makes me think about life in a different perspective. Just like they slander Steph on Undisputed for example. It is pathetic and unfair to the core.
Every player doesn't put Kobe over Lebron, you're just making stuff up lmao
@@jrddog mostly every elite player ive heard speak thinks kobe is better than lebron and they also think media guys like bill simmons are idiots
@@dominiquebrown2890 NBA guys don't think Bill is an idiot. Bill is actually pretty well liked by players. They dislike the talking head guys like Skip Bayless who just throw out takes to stir the pot and get ratings. Bills just a basketball head. That isn't to say he doesn't get wrong from time to time but his general knowledge is pretty solid. As for what nba players have to say on the goat debate, I don't value their opinion much at all. Most players are too heavily influenced by their playing careers to be objective. Take IT and his views on MJ. He refuses to recognize Michael's goat status because he's still salty about they way the Bulls stomped them in 91 lol
@@jrddogthat was the stupidest thing I have ever read. Their influenced by their playing careers like that is a bad thing hahahah. And you couch dudes are somehow unbiased geniuses of basketball because you can read that LbJ has better stats than Kobe 🤣
It’s like the stat guys purposely tell half the story or miss details with Kobe. How can he be such a bad teammate but whenever he had a star teammate he won or lost to championship team. The notion that he wasn’t a good teammate to the smush Parker’s and Chris mhimms of the world is ridiculous cause he was never gonna win with those teams. No scoring sg and playmaking short pg wins by themselves. But history has shown that if you give them a star who is the first option or 2nd they’re instantly successful. Tell the whole story not just the parts you like and dislike.
Spot on.
What does knowing a teammate is bad have to do with being excused for treating like them shit?
Duncan had no intuition dudes like Parker or Manu would flourish but respected them and made them feel welcomed. Kobe was a fucking atrocious teammate, outside the years he had good players, ergo that means he was a bad teammate
@@hardwoodthought1213 Duncan didn't speak to Ginobli for 2 years. He had no clue who he was and didn't give a shit until Ginobli proved how good he was. He said it himself.
@@danielgalea8499 Wrong, he kept to himself because he is naturally a shy guy who off the court engaged in MMA and Dungeons and Dragons.
You’re actually referring to Parker, who said it with full intention of ribbing Duncan, a dude who wasn’t going to hang with a 19 year old French rapper.
Now show me the person who said Duncan was a bad teammate or leader… the man has his own chapter in a sports leadership book, whilst multiple teammates have confirmed Kobe treating them like dog shit.
Even dudes like Gasol who got on with Kobe when things went well stated he felt betrayed by Kobe in 12/13 when things went downhill
Try again
@@hardwoodthought1213 I’m not disputing that Kobe was this “great”teammate . We can all agree his 2nd half was much better. My point is they’re holding it against him as if him being mean to kwame brown meant the difference between a championship or just playoffs. It holds no weight. Duncan and curry had great coaches and a system that allowed people to play high iq ball and flourish. We don’t know how they would react to an environment where the system is trash and the players talent level is even lower. Aka Kobe after Shaq. If you’re gonna hold something against Kobe. Keep it on the court. Like he didn’t use playmaking skills as much as he could’ve. But this bad teammate stuff is nonsense. I have more points but I’ll let you go 😅
Goat tier
Jordan-greatest peak and prime
Lebron-greatest career
Rest of Top 10
Bigs
(Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem)
Perimeter
(Magic, Bird, Kobe, Steph)
* too hard to compare 60's with only 8 to 10 teams and no 3point line
OG 60's Pioneers Top 5
(Russell, Wilt, Big O, West, Baylor)
*also hard to compare ABA with the greatest players split between leagues
*ABA goat
Dr. J
Just outside Top 10
Moses
Durant
Giannis
Durant and Giannis would likely surpass Hakeem, Kobe and Shaq in my top 10 but only if they win at least 1 , possibly 2 more titles as the best player.
Luka and Jokic are on their way to top 10 conversation in about 5 to 15 years at their current pace assuming they can win 2 or more titles as the best player in their career.
everything you said is facts. definitely think luka will surpass bird and jokics advanced stats are the best of all time i definitely see him winning multiple chips and being the best center of this generation and maybe all time
durant cant pass hakeem or shaq though
my top 10 based on who is better/ more valuable not just accomplishments which can depend on team placement and injuries and era.
lebron
jordan
duncan
curry
shaq
giannis
magic
hakeem
kevin durant
wilt
i think putting bill russel here when his stats are absolutely doggy doo doo is ridiculous. people wanna show homage to old greats but dont realize hes a 6’9 that shot 36 percent from the field against wilt for his career and averaged like 10 ppg for his career. sure his rebounds are high but thats due to the pace which allowed average players to get 10-25 rebounds a game. wilt is just a genetic monster though so i have him top 10-12
I don't think KD's is going to be adding anything significant to his legacy at this point (i.e titles, MVPs). I think his legacy is set as a borderline top 15 or top 20 guy.
@@TElias5 i agree Wilt's talent , genetics and offensive skill makes me more confident he could be great any era but for that era i feel like there's evidence that Russell was a more valuable player for a team. Wilt was more of a ball stopping stat padder that was hard to play with during his prime. Overall, i still prefer to just separate that era anyway because the game and league was so drastically different.
More of content like this please. Love Bill Simmons. If you could make funny animations like you had at Grantland with Jalen to follow verbal content it would be amazing.
aint no way is curry’s 8 to 9 years is better than kobe’s 8 to 9 years
The media loves this narrative with kobe. They stopped for a bit when he passed away but it’s in full effect again.
And? You can’t be honest that, for a good part of his career, Kobe was a bit toxic and a bad teammate?
great value version of jordan. He a walmart brand
@@jhank0cean kobe wanted to go to chicago at 1 point
@@jhank0cean not a good part, his whole career. Ppl loved him after he played and he start opening up more
@@jhank0cean who of substance other than Shaq had a toxic and non-winning relationship with Kobe? Do you trust Smush, Kwame and Dwight over Pau, Fisher and Fox?
I think the thing you guys barely touched on is that Steph would play 3 quarters of most games from 2016-2018. He won games in 3 quarters. Not only that, i guarantee Steph would of averaged 35+ with the highest true shooting, after the finals loss in 2016. But KD came in and dropped his numbers, granted because Steph being the greatest teammate ever, chose chips>numbers
Just entails how easy some of Warriors path to the finals were.
Several blow out games.
Steph took a team with no history of winning.
No nod to Kawhi in the top 5 of the Century list?
I haven’t to the full pod yet so my bad if I’m missing something
It’s crazy how many loops they have to jump through to make this argument. Kobe won back to back chips and almost every single player on that roaster played at their peaks with Kobe. Not only did he dominate his position for 12 years on defense he also did it on offense. Some the greatest scoring surges ever and 81 points. He won back to back with Pau gasol and against the Celtics big 3. Then we act like the three peat was no big deal. He average 30 points a game in the final at the age of like 23. This is crazy
It's hardly jumping through hoops. Steph's resume is also insane.
Why do I keep seeing this revisionist history that Kobe carried those Lakers teams with him and Pau. Those rosters were deep, defensive minded, had grit, had size, and we're coached by the greatest coach of all time.
Ppl talk like Pau was a scrub 2nd option but he was a walking 20 & 10 with good defense. No one wants to ever bring up the fact he bailed Kobe out in G7 against Boston. Kobe shot 25% from the field with 2 assist, meanwhile Pau shot over 50% while dropping 20 pts, 20 reb, and threw in 4 assist. Don't get me wrong, Kobe was def the driving force but that roster was excellent and so was the coaching.
Kobe has had AWFUL finals performance just like Curry (04 pistons). He's also blown a 3-1 lead like Curry. He also has more finals wins without being the MVP just like Curry.
Personally I still got Kobe ahead of Curry all time at this point, but Curry is breathing down his neck. Curry probably will pass him when it's all said and done. It's ok if Kobe one of your fav players, but it's crazy on your part to act like he on a different level than Curry. They sitting at the same table bro.
Travis’s ENTMT Did Kyrie bail Lebron in G7 of the 2016. Lebron shot just as bad of a % from the field that G7 just like Kobe did in G7 of the 2010. Kobe shot 6-24 in that G7 and Lebron shot 9-24 in that G7. Also Kyrie made the GW. Saying Kobe bailed out by Pau is just wrong
@@anthonycelestin3559 Bron had a triple double and made arguably the greatest block in NBA history down the stretch of that game. You coulda got me with Jesus shot in the corner G6 against the Spurs, but not with G7 vs GS.
Two Celtic fangirls hating on a Laker Legend, shocker lol
Kawhi doesn't even get mentioned in the last 10 years convo??? Kawhi >>>> Jokic and Embiid and KD
How much did Kawhi average this year?
@@jrddog How much did KD average in 2020? Injuries are injuries. Every GM would rather have 1 year of healthy Kawhi than 2 years of healthy Embiid.
@@Emon31415 No they wouldn't
@@jrddog Healthy Kawhi made Embiid cry 🤣
@@Emon31415 why don't you ask Steve Ballmer who he would've rather had this year:
Embiid: 30.6 pts, 11.7 rebs, 4.2 asts, 1.1 stl, 1.5 blk
or
Kawhi: 0.0 pts, 0.0 rebs, 0.0 asts, 0.0 stl, 0.0 blk
It's Curry vs. Bird and they know it
You guys mentioned TS% briefly, but it's such a simple yet powerful stat that doesn't get enough attention, especially when comparing backcourt players between each other. Kobe was amazing to watch when he caught fire, but he took so many bad shots. Steph's 62.4% vs Kobe's 55% says a lot. For reference, Magic 61%, LeBron 58.8%, Jordan 56.9%.
I like efg% as well. People just look at fg% for efficiency but that doesn't take into account the efficiency of a 3pt shot like efg%. If you look at the advanced stats, Steph is the greatest offensive player of all time and it really isn't that close.
@@joedagg4495 Jokic is actually...all time highest BPM AND PER ahead of Lebron and Jordan.
@@realone296 yeah I'd assume jokic would be up there. But I'm assuming his stats will regress the longer he is in the league as he ages. He just had his best season ever.
@@realone296 he must be better than both of them then
@@joedagg4495 depends on which ones you look at. BPM he isn’t there at all
No Love for Kawhi
Kobe Steph is a great debate and I’m glad you guys touched on it to this depth
'Makes those around him better...'
Why is it that this statement ^ is commonly used when talking about guys who were playing with absolute stud, HOF-type players? Tim Duncan, Steph Curry weren't saddled with G-league guys. Duncan gets a mentoring from The Admiral then paired with Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli and Kawhi Leonard. Steph Curry starts out slow, almost traded in favor of Monta Ellis then the emergence of guys like Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala.
Asking genuinely, are we going to believe that Manu, Tony, Klay, etc. weren't going to be good elsewhere?
Now as crazy as this sounds I’ve got Curry no.6 over Kobe. Kobe played 20 years and won 5 championships went to 7 and 1 regular season MVP
Curry played 13 years 4 championships been to 6 and 2 regular season MVPs.
Kobe is the obvious better defender, Steph is a better shooter and passer and they arguably the same scorer, their career ppg average is pretty much the same. Steph has made a bigger impact on the actual game of basketball everybody want to be a 3pt shooter. Also Curry pretty much sweeps Kobe when it comes to playoffs percentages and stats per game.
Kobe playoff stats from age 22-32 = 28.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 45.1 fg%
Curry playoff stats from age 24-34 = 26.6 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 6.2 apg, 45.2 fg%
I would call that less than a sweep.
@@nikosvault What are the numbers in the finals?
@@nikosvault It’s not close in the finals
@@nikosvault now do True Shooting %
Mvp is a media award and theres no criteria to win it. You pretty much identified yourself as an idiot the minute you typed that
Kawhi gets left out the discussion completely, interesting
Kawhi ain’t top 10 lmaooo
That's what happens when you don't actually play
Curry gets better the farther his team goes, Kobe didn't do that:
Regular Season
Curry 24.29 PPG (#18)
Kobe 24.99 PPG (#12)
Playoffs
Curry 26.64 PPG (#12)
Kobe 25.64 PPG (#17)
Finals
Curry 27.29 PPG (#10)
Kobe 25.32 PPG (#13)
Kobe was an elite defender. Curry is not. He is solid now and was bad in 15, 16 and 17
@@X5J2UY What does that have to do with his PPG being the same in the regular season and the playoffs (whereas Steph's improve)?
@@5StarFlix Because "getting better" isn't only about points. Kobe is a much better defender in the regular season and playoffs. Comparing only PPG makes no sense. Especially when the 3p shot wasn't a big part of basketball in Kobe's prime. He would average 1-2 points more, because he would have taken more 3s.
That's a nice way to point out Steph's killer side
Exclude the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (where Kobe was a teenager coming of the bench) and then look at their playoff avg. But why play fair if it destroys the whole argument.
kawai is close to that 5th spot as well.
Kobe is "greater" in many ways, but Steph is the better teammate. I'd rather have Steph on my all-time team, just because he'd play better with not being the primary option. Granted, Kobe sacrificed on Team USA, when needed, but I wouldn't expect that of him on a regular basis.
yeah he didnt have to sacrifice when playing with shaq to win the league's last 3 peat or anything
Yea curry is the better teammate because he will always allow you to gaurd the other teams best player because he definitely cant
Bill such a hater every time he brings up Kobe or the Lakers. And then Ryan I have him ahead of Kobe behind Magic like wtf are talking about historic significance or who's skills or talent is superior. PS !UPLUAD FULL VOD YOUR COMMUNITY BEGS FOR IT EVERYSINGLE DAY NOW SINCE THE SWITCH MY GOD NO STATS CAN BACK UP NOT RELASING IT ON YT.
No disrespect to Kobe because he was an incredible player and was the closest we got to a modern day Michael Jordan, but Stephen Curry's impact and the way he shaped the league into becoming a 3-point shooting game puts him just a hairline above Kobe. And while the All-Defensive team selections will always be put over Curry because he's a "negative defender" (spoiler alert: he's actually a pretty net-positive defender, obviously not an All-Defensive level but good enough to hold his own), his impact by just being on the court on offense and the insane amount of off-ball movement he does to both get an open shot as well as confusing the opposing team's defense is on a different plane of existence, literally.
Kobe, for a good chunk of his career, was all about the iso-ball and hero-ball style that we all grew up loving (don't lie to yourself because everyone shouted "KOBE" as a kid when shooting something like a crumpled up paper ball to a trash can) and we saw the limitations of that in the finals when Tatum did his best on doing a bad Kobe impression. Curry, on the other hand, could do iso-ball or hero-ball but it was never his main go-to move for playing basketball. He knows that he's just as, if not more, impactful off the ball as he is on the ball while on offense. That's why we say that Curry has a "gravity" to him because of how much the opposing team's defense has to bend in order to just slow Curry down.
Don't get me wrong, Kobe was a phenomenal player and was my biggest hero growing up but Curry literally reshaped the league in terms of how basketball is played. Curry is above Kobe by the tiniest of margins, but I won't argue with anyone who has Kobe over Curry. It's really close.
P.S. if anyone uses the "# of rings" argument as the basis of why Kobe is above Curry, then Bill Russell is above everyone and should be the undisputed GOAT. So find another slant.
Kobe is the better player period.
I think the closest thing we got to MJ was Wade in '06 and '09, specifically.
Bob Cousy and Elgin Baylor also chanced the game. Still not better players.
Steph winning vs. the celtics helps the pain for these 2 cause they lose Steph and the warriors for beating lebron
The stats play better for steph... And kobe didn't really have alot of great finals games too. Kobe did play better defense tho. That I get that
How many better games does Curry have than Kobe's 40/8/8? I count 1 game.
@@nikosvault his first playoff run he had a 44/11 against the spurs that year. Insane game
@Beery Kobe had 36/7/7 in 3 quarters. You are saying that 37 against solo Bron was better?If Magic had put up a fight thats a 50 point triple double in the making.
@@jfrombk338 thats not the finals. kobe had 48/16 to close out the kings in 01 then 45 in san antonio game 1 WCF. he was like 21/22 lol
@@faroutsider24 you just mentioned games that aren't finals games either
Simmons is trying so hard to come up with any timeframe where he can say Steph was better than LeBron. Thank fuck Russillo wasn’t having it, he shut it down fast.
They really are talking nonsense this whole episode. Simmons at his absolute worse.
He talks about Steph having the highest net rating in most of their playoff runs, including ‘17 and ‘18 with KD, then in the next breath says at 3:31
“in ‘15 he was #2 behind draymond (in net rating) but that was also because of Steph”
Why does that logic not work for ‘17 and ‘18 in favor of KD? “KD was #2 in net rating behind Steph but that was also because of KD”
The net rating argument starts to fall apart there imo
i think it’s an honest mess up on his part
@@abhi2013roy Mess up in terms of not fully fleshed out, I agree.
I caught the same thing. Very convenient logic on his part.
Last 10 years, you can't forget about Kawhi. Perhaps more valuable than Durant since 2013.
My lineup:
Curry, LeBron, Kawhi, Giannis, Durant regardless of position.
The next five best players of the decade I would pick are Harden, Westbrook, Jokic, Lillard and George. With Embid and Chris Paul rounding up my 12 man rotation.
Magic played on some of the greatest teams of all time for over half his career of course he won a lot but still tied at 5 with Kobe. I remember 10 years ago it was the overall consensus that Kobe was greater than magic. Magic said it himself many many times. Magic doesn’t have all the finals mvps either but somehow magic gets greater at a different standard.
And Kobe also played with others with all-time talent. So what is your point?
“Overall consensus” lol ok
First topic is kobe hate giving him the chance to put steph over kobe which bill felt before steph won this title lol..bill can't just take the loss to his celtics he has to deflect
Kawhi's better than half the guys you mentioned in the last 10 years segment. He carried a team past prime Embiid/Butler, Giannis and Curry to a title.
Kawhi's great when he actually plays which is like every other season lmao
@@jrddog he also got robbed by the Warriors of another title when Zaza fouled his ankle. Kawhi was a bad omission and Bill and Ryen would agree on a second thought
@@ehafnerhell of a stretch to say he was robbed of a title. Especially since he pulled off the flukiest title in the history of professional sports. Reality is that while Leonard probably should be a top 5 guy in the league, he hasn't played enough for anyone to be able to say he is. Of the last 10 years he didn't play in two of them (technically played 9 games in one of those), and only played more than 70 games twice. He also didn't even rise to stardom until 3-4 seasons into that stretch. So no Leonard hasn't been a top 5 or 10 guy over the last decade. He probably wouldn't even make a top 20 if we're being completely honest.
@@jrddog pretty silly argument. I know another guy who missed a couple years in his prime and he’s considered the GOAT. No one cares about the regular season. Start comparing playoff numbers if you want a real debate
And yes robbed 100%. Anyone who watched that game saw the Spurs were kicking their ass and looked like title favorites.
@@ehafner you can't just say the spurs were title favorites after half of one game. Yes Kawhi's injury was a big hit, but easily the warriors could have comeback the next game and one. Its like after the celtics warriors game 3 everyone was saying celtics in 5 etc but warriors made some small adjustments and they won. Thats why I also give him the 2019 title without too much of an asterik. Sports are sports and injuries are common.
The Recency Bias of Steph Curry is RIDICULOUS!!!! Curry is GREAT, however he is NOT top 10. STOP IT!
And what do you mean they win all these games when he's out there...... When Klay was out and it was Draymond and the remaining cast.... Steph couldn't win any games they were like last 2 seasons ago in the league ... I can't with all the clowns that talk like this
you mean the year curry got hurt in game 5?
@@austinrawlins no the year where he couldn’t make it to the playoffs
@@naderebrahim3568 They missed the playoffs by a game. Kobe had a similar down stretch after Shaq left. Missed the playoffs in '05 and then got bounced in the first round in '06 and '07.
Last 10 seasons lineup:
PG - Steph Curry // Chris Paul // Damian Lillard
SG - James Harden // Klay Thompson // Luka Doncic
SF - Lebron James // Kawhi Leonard // Paul George
PF - Kevin Durant // Anthony Davis // Blake Griffin
C - Giannis Antetokounmpo // Joel Embiid // Nikola Jokic
He's not Top 10 for me. He was be at w clear 11 spot. With that said, I think he easily could make an argument for 10-8. Which for me would be the Shaq/Duncan/Kobe range. Not necessarily in that order.
Steph is nowhere near any of their GREATNESS.
Not in FUNDAMENTALS or the eye test or stats!
@@Mercurial. one of your comments is “Steph has never been a superstar and carried his team to a finals win” and all caps too. That alone lets me know, you’re just hating and not wanting to make a simple argument. The way the warriors offense has ran, and great defenses have played him. Is more than enough of an eye test
The fact that's Steph is 6'2 should definitely play a part because there's nobody close to the top 10 under 6'4. Also he played 3 years in college. I believe if those last 2 years if he was in the nba that would've done him better.
gotta laugh out loud at the revisionist bs around jordan. the 90s bulls were consistently the best roster in the era by far. The only team to have TWO great players for most of it, and the 2nd 3peat they had 3 great players. 90's was a watered down decade for the league talent wise, but he had by far and away the best roster. He can be your goat, you don't have to lie about what is objectively observable.
This is fact. They were the KD Warriors of the league. They were never NOT favored cause they were stacked compared to their comp.
Utah Jazz had 2 great players for most of it, not that that really matters, it’s about who they had to play each year.
Yeah it was watered down because they were expanding the league which means peeps who wouldn’t have made the league before made it then. And that’s the league Mike had to play against after Scottie Pippen go there. He was 1-9 on the playoffs without him
The Bulls had the best roster because they had MJ.
@@jrddog yea you're right, the best defensive wing of that era and one of the 3 best defenders in league history also being on his team totally didnt help. Having more quality role players and more stars than everyone else totally wasnt an advantage.
LOL The Kobe disrespect is unreal. You can't just throw his defensive accolades out the window, defense is literally HALF the game of basketball. Net rating, efficiency rating...you know what's efficient, winning 5 out 7. You can't be a "bad teammate" and win as much as he did unless your saying he did it on his own which would be even more amazing. Lebron, the "ultimate teammate" gets credit for winning on 3 different teams as he should. Even though the star players he played with sacrificed stats he is a great teammate. That being said, Kobe had the same jersey on but won on 2 different teams and took a 3rd team that had no business sniffing the playoffs to the playoffs taking the 2 seeded Suns to 7 games single handedly. He had to do that by himself because he had Smush, Mihm, Kwame and Odom. Hence him demanding a trade ala Lebron leaving Cleveland because he had no help. The Greatest of all-time really isn't that complicated. You all make it complicated because your "bias" forces you to put random things in there to justify putting people you like ahead of others you don't who are actually better. Offense, DEFENSE, Clutch (meaning ability to take over, a game, take the big shots, big moments), intangibles, accolades and last but not least championships. There's 5 players who are Elite at all of it, in no particular order; Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Kareem, Duncan. Honorable mention Hakeem but 2 titles just isn't enough for this list or the top 10. Everyone else is lacking in one aspect or another