Filip is on point. In the Trouble Brewing video, he figured out Julian and Lewis were not only the evil pair, but which of them was the demon, and he had that figured out early, then in this video, the moment he is brought back to life, he goes after Claire right away.
Thanks man! Figuring it out is a bittersweet moment, because as you can see it's not always easy to convince the group! I also tend to get excited when I know the truth and misspeak, which people use against me as Julian did in Trouble Brewing. So keep your cool during the big plays, everyone!
@@Immafuggin182 I joked with friends that frosthaven would arrive before blood and thats about to come true. There's a game right now on kickstarter called deep rock galactic that has 5 days to fund. I know nothing about it other than it looks like a big game and its popular. I'd go as far as saying that will be delivered before blood on the clocktower.
I am SO excited for this game, I cannot wait for it to come out. This looks like so much fun and I cannot wait to run it for my friends. I especially love how the whole Lunatic/Demon thing went down.
@@ItJamesIs he saw Doug doubled up with someone else, which likely a minion, but he knew Claire was his minion already, so something doesn't add up on his end...
@@morblitz In Blood on the Clocktower, normally no two players can have the same character. [There are exceptions - some special characters will allow this. The Lunatic means that two characters can THINK they are the same demon, but actually only one is.] So, if two players claim to be the same character (i.e. "doubling up") it means that at least one - sometimes both! - are lying. The Lunatic wasn't expecting two good players to end up getting into a dispute about who was the Exorcist, so it was likely one of them was Evil. But he wasn't expecting either of them to be Evil if he was the Demon, so he was able to realise he wasn't the Demon; he was actually the Lunatic.
It's such a pleasure to watch your games. Evin is great at explaining game and what happens. Players are very strategic and intelligent about how the play. I haven't play the game myself it (it will be soon published and my country!) and I hope to run it as a storyteller. So I'm watching to learn how to run it and how to make fun for the players.
Heyo, Evin here. I spent much of my early days playing Clocktower going after the quieter players because I thought being quiet meant being suspicious. Turns out they were mostly just quiet and we were killing Good players (which the Evil Team was only too happy to assist with). What's tricky is that there are a few players I know who talk *more* when they're Evil. Their M.O. to reduce their threat level is to actually try to talk less.
Hey Andy, this is Evin here. I'm told that Claire tried to get one of her bluffs over to Doug to use, but she couldn't find a moment to get him alone to do it subtly. Michael was always within listening distance.
I didn't see where Michael saw that he was the Shabaloth, but he must have known, since he picked two players N1. Not sure what Doug bluffed as, but it didn't work! And when Filip came back, and this point in my mind Claire hasn't said anything and is SUPER suspicious. She had no good bluff at the end and Doug bluffing as the Exorcist was bad luck (Claire needed to tell him an out of play role). It happened fast, and maybe the good team didn't need the help... Maybe Claire's ONLY move would be to claim she figured out she's the lunatic, and nominate Michael. But with the Exorcist back in play, she couldn't. So yes, Claire had no bluffs, lost her team mate, and a hugely powerful townsfolk came back. Odds were stacked against her! But, it was a fun game...and I would definitely be asking to run it back for a rematch after this!
The role you draw says which demon you are. For the lunatic, they see the demon role, and the demon see's the lunatic role. They are swapped in the grimoire after all the tokens return. Then the demon is shown "you are:" followed by which demon they are.
@@MikeyDonnelly Ah...right. The real demon needs to know which demon they are because they draw the Lunatic first. But the Lunatic has the actual Shabaloth token. Got it.
I feel like regurgitating Fil might’ve been a mistake that swung the game a bit too far in favor of Good, with the Mastermind having just been executed.
Yeah, after a lot of time with this game in the public eye and with the benefit of hindsight I tend to agree. I didn't think they were that much on to the demon. Still, in a Shabaloth game you mostly want to regurgitate at least one player at some point, and this night was very likely the last night where there'd be an opportunity to do so. The Tea Lady and Exorcist were the only players that could have been regurgitated, but bringing the Tea Lady back would have been super tough on the Evil Team. The Tea Lady would have been highly trusted, and neighbouring the Lunatic and a demon pretending to be the Lunatic's minion. The town would probably have tried to execute one of the Tea Lady's neighbours, meaning the demon would have pushed for their Lunatic to be executed and the Lunatic would have pushed for their "minion" to be executed. So bringing back the Tea Lady would have meant that either the demon was executed, or the minion had to mostly abandon their minion bluff. - Evin
At that point the chambermaid had all the info to solve the game, so as long as she was listened to, evil had already lost. However, I feel like the lunatic & demon sank a kill to try to hide the Shabaloth's identity, and it was a little punishing to directly go against that play by verifying a Shabaloth through regurgitation. I'm also wondering if it ever pays off (for evil) to give the demon as a lunatic's minion. Won't the lunatic always want to throw the demon under the bus to save himself?
@@brockmarie I think it’s pretty rare for a Lunatic to get to final day still thinking they’re the Demon. Once you know you’re good, it’s pretty common to meta that the ST probably made at least one of your “minions” evil, but it’s usually not as simple as getting the town to kill them just in case.
25:06 "So I told the lunatic Michael that his minion was actually the real demon" sounds like you told michael "yo your minion is actually a demon", took me a while to realise you meant "I falsely told michael that claire is his minion, when claire is actually the demon"
Hey Dom, this is Evin here. It's something that's definitely on our 'to-do' list and we hope to have something like this out there in 2020 by the time the games are delivered.
We play this on zoom all the time I don't know that I am smart enough to play in person without the aid of notes how the heck do you keep track of everything
When you're playing in person regularly, you develop bit of a knack for recalling claims and people's information. All the same, the chaos is all part of the fun of it too. :) - Evin
23:55 Here Claire learned about the lunatic „kills“ but isn’t sent to sleep before she chooses her kills. In the night before she is send to sleep for the exorcist to act. Isn’t that and easy way to tell for the demon that there was an exorcist who is dead now?
@@BloodontheClocktower ok I just list what happens Night 2 12:43 : Lunatic wakes up and chooses targets then goes back to sleep Then Shabalot wakes up and learns about the lunatic choices and goes back to sleep Then the exorcist wakes up and uses his ability Then the shabalot wakes up again and now chooses his victims
In Night 3 23:33 The shabalot is allowed to choose their victims as soon as they learn about the lunatic choice without going back to sleep for the exorcist to act. Doesn’t that provide intel to the shabalot because he doesn’t need to go to sleep after they learn about the lunatic pics
So the Exorcist has to wake before the Demon gets to kill, because the Exorcist can stop the Demon from being allowed to kill. The Storyteller could have simply waited until after the Exorcist chose a player and then woke the Shabaloth and given them the Lunatic information, as well as getting their choices for the kill, but he chose to do the two things separately. Mechanically, it makes absolutely no difference if he does them together or separately, as long as the Exorcist gets to go first. It's worth keeping in mind that this video is nearly six years old, filmed before the game was even funded on Kickstarter, let alone released, and probably uses a very old and defunct version of the night order as well. - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower ah ok thank you very much. Ofc I understand just learning for when I try to run it one day. Thank you very much for the answer and have a nice day :)
At 23:39, Evin wakes the Lunatic, then the Exorcist, then the Demon. It doesn't really matter, but I was expecting the Exorcist to be woken before the Lunatic; was there a reason Evin did it in that order?
Dylan Thurston I think the order in the night sheet is Lunatic first. It’s important that the exorcist is always woken before the demon as if they’re picked correctly, they do not get the opportunity to attack.
Hi Dylan, Cloyphish is correct. The Exorcist doesn't affect the Lunatic, so the Lunatic can be woken before the Exorcist. But because the Exorcist can affect what the demon does, they need to be woken before the demon. The general order of night actions goes: Poisoners, Protectors, Killers, then Everyone Else. The Exorcist is 'Poisoning' the demon, in a way, so they act early on.
@@BloodontheClocktower Yet this was a mistake, because later on, when the exorcist is dead, the demon does not get put to sleep after learning who their lunatic targeted (around 24:00) thus giving the real demon very valuable information they should not actually have.
@@Glitch215 I actually think the mistake was at 13:10. The demon should not have been woken at all until after the exorcist acts. It should have been Lunatic picking people, exorcist picks a person, then demon learns who lunatic picked, then picks people themselves. So the demon actually learned information by being woken up, put back to sleep, then woken up again. This would probably just be fixed by doing exorcist -> lunatic -> demon, then you can't possibly run into this issue
Didn't everyone look at their tokens as they drew them out of the bag at the beginning of the game (@ 1:55)? If that is the case, wouldn't Michael know he was actually the Lunatic the entire game?
Hey Kyle, Michael here. I drew out the Shabaloth token. As there is only 1 Shabaloth Token, Evin set this up with both the Lunatic and Shabaloth in the bag. In this case, The person who draws the Shabaloth is the Lunatic, and the person who draws the Lunatic is actually the true Shabaloth. Hope this helps :)
@@danepatton2252 hi Dane, I believe the storyteller can indicate who the “actual demon is” to a lunatic (but not actually the demon). Remember, the lunatic thinks they’re the demon. A good person to indicate as “the demon” to the lunatic would be a minion. I don’t see why the ST declare the person who draws the lunatic as the actual lunatic
Didn't matter much in this game but I found you super optimistic saying you regurgitated Filip to give a chance to the townfolks. Michael, in his bluff, announced Claire as the Fool, which make her a very easy target to purgatory (which makes sense, considering Michael thought she was her minion, so cannon fodder). Even without the Chambermaid play and Michael realizing he was the Lunatic, I suspected a vote against Claire coming. I really don't see any reason to stack even more odds against the Demon at this point. Sure, Michael played the Demon well, but since he's not the Demon, it didn't help Claire that much.
It did all fall apart for the Evil Team pretty quickly there. I think they still had a shot after bringing Fil back to life, but the way that Fil handled Doug doubling up with him (he drew opinions from Doug before Doug knew that he was under suspicion) meant that they were then able to find the demon pretty quickly. Not only is it unlucky that Doug doubled up his bluff with another player, he happened to pick the player that was regurgitated and so the player that was most trusted.
@@BloodontheClocktower The storyteller playing kingmaker kind of kills this for me. I feel like it takes away any sense of accomplishment for the players.
@@gmcookie14 I agree it's fair that it might look like that just from watching a couple of games, but it's actually very difficult for a Storyteller to outright decide the outcome in any particular game unless they're making a lot of decisions in genuine bad faith (the same way a DM could drop a horde of dragons onto a band of lvl 1 adventurers and wipe them out - it's technically within the rules of D&D to do so but isn't really what the DM is there to do). We had many play-test nights where one team or the other went on a winning streak and no matter how hard the Storyteller tried to get a win to the other team, they were thwarted every time. But having said all that, I probably wouldn't have regurgitated Fil - or maybe anyone - this game if I'd had a better sense of how far behind the eight ball the Evil Team was. This isn't to take anything away from the players - the Good Team earned this win - it's just a place where my Storytelling could probably have been better. Storytellers won't always make the perfect decisions for balance, but so long as they have a good reason or motivation for making the decisions they do and they have the fun of the players as the number 1 priority, they'll be fine. - Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower I don't think it is objectively a bad thing that the Storyteller has some power to shift the game one way or the other, like a DM. I'm certain some people are more attracted to it for exactly that reason. Personally, I just can't imagine feeling satisfied with the outcome of a team-based game that hinged entirely on a seemingly arbitrary decision from someone who wasn't even supposed to be on one of the teams. I am interested in the game and hope to find that can be just as enjoyable without the prospect of 'moving goalposts'.
Hey Dylan, this is Evin here. Do you mean in this play-through or the Trouble Brewing play-through? (In TB, they were able to trust each other because they each received information about what role the other one was, and it matched up.) In this video, Sarah-Regina and Lewis were able to confirm each other and trust each other from Reggie's information as the Grandmother and Lewis's ability as the Gambler. For Sarah-Regina and Fil in this game, pretty much everyone trusted Fil because he was regurgitated by the Shabaloth, and they trusted Sarah-Regina because she died at night, so those two players had pretty good cause to trust each other.
In case nobody's answered this for you yet, I've read like everything I can (rules, wiki, character almanacs, forum posts, etc) and watched every video I can find on this game, and I think I can answer it. A demon (and some minions) can attack any player they choose (unless their ability specifically says "alive player"), then the storyteller has to determine if the character dies, because some abilities can stop death. Attacks are chosen by the attacking players, but death is a possible result of an attack. Attacking a dead player cannot kill them again, obviously. In Bad Moon Rising, one of the demons is the zombul, who doesn't actually die the first time they appear to die. Basically, the storyteller says they died, but the zombul continues to act and because of this, the rules do allow players to nominate a dead character for executions, but unless that character is a zombul, they can't die again, though if the vote passes, that counts as the one execution for the day. So, attacks and executions can cause death, but if the rules care about an attack or an execution, the rule only cares that a player was chosen to be attacked or that an execution happens, even if the death was prevented.
I played this thrice at meeplecon!!.. 1st game: Recluse 2nd game: Virgin who got killed at night without getting nominated :( 3rd game: Scarlett woman who had to execute Imp with others due to too much heat on him and then became Imp and carried game to victory :D
This is an earlier version of the token with a bit of flourish on it. 'Midnight' isn't going to be a game/rules term, and the final reminder tokens for the Godfather will say 'Died Today' (if an Outsider dies) and 'Dead' (for the player the Godfather chooses to kill). - Evin
Storytelling does take a bit to get the knack of - much like the difference between playing DnD as a player (simple enough) or as the Dungeon Master (must know all the rules and be able to run the game) but it's all there in the Grimoire for you. After enough time with Trouble Brewing, stepping up to the more complex editions shouldn't be a problem. :)
Why does the lunatic keep proposing that people execute him? Is he really sure he is in fact not the demon? Or is it maybe trying to see if his ‘minion’ will try and protect him, otherwise he is probably the lunatic?
Hi Manus, this is Evin here. The reason that Michael, as the Lunatic, kept trying to get himself executed was because Claire had told him that she was the Mastermind and he was trying to get a win using the Mastermind's ability. Claire told Michael this so that Michael would not have as strongly suspected himself of being the Lunatic when he got executed and the game continued. Getting yourself executed as the demon to try and get a win through the Mastermind's ability is a common enough strategy for the Evil Team: Gather trust with the group by volunteering to get yourself executed, then use that trust the next day to try and get a Good player executed and win.
I just have to say, Michael's tactics seem questionable to me. As the lunatic, he believed he was the shabaloth, yet he nominates himself multiple times, claiming to be a sailor wanting to know if he's drunk. First of all, if you ARE the sailor, why would you want to put yourself on the chopping block? If you die, you haven't proven anything. If you don't die, you still haven't proven you are the sailor, as there could be a pacifist or devil's advocate in play. Secondly, if you think you are the demon, which he did at that point, why in the world would you risk getting yourself killed? I mean, I get the possible bluff, but... seems questionable.
Michael was a fun agent of chaos in these videos, so there's probably an element of that to it. But also there's a strong meta-strategy in some (but not all) groups that play BOTC where players who are asking to be executed are less likely to be the demon... so demons will sometimes ask to be executed in order to make people trust them and bluff them into thinking they're not the demon. :) - Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower Absolutely no one in my group wants to die. Everyone is so keen on staying alive to keep their vote, that one of my players didn't even nominate himself when he was the Virgin. I've had a Gossip who was too afraid to make statements. These examples come from my "veteran" players.
@@DyrianLightbringer That's absolutely a fair way to play as well, and each group will typically establish its own meta. Some groups, en masse, will accept death more willingly, while others will all typically fight to stay alive. Each path comes with its own advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I almost always fight to stay alive, but not because I always particularly value my own life/ability within the game, but because it's a way to mask to the rest of the group whether I'm good or Evil. If I'm usually happy to die when I'm on the Good Team, then my group will know I'm more likely to be on the Evil Team on the occasions that I'm fighting not to be executed. To get around this, I make sure to always be fighting so that I've got cover when I'm on the Evil Team. - Evin
@DyrianLightbringer Remember Claire also told him that she was the Mastermind, so he could also have been trying to get a sort of surprise Mastermind victory with its special win condition.
It was either a play to make him look less evil, or in my opinion, the most likely option, was he was going for a mastermind win. Claire told Michael she was the mastermind, so he would want to get executed early, say he was made drunk, maybe have the exorcist pick someone then have that person get executed and an evil victory (he didn’t know Julian was the exorcist tho).
The Lunatic seems like it almost has too much power over the game; if the real Demon doesn't follow the Lunatic's choices then pretty quickly the Lunatic will probably know what they are and therefor would also know that the Demon is really the Demon. If the Demon simply chooses the same targets as the Lunatic then they almost don't get to play their own real character either. If the Lunatic is killed for any reason they also know their true role (because the game didn't end) and can throw the real Demon under the bus. I'd be curious to see how the Lunatic plays over a larger sample of games and to know how often they are the one to bring the Demon down ultimately. I almost feel like the Lunatic should learn the true Minion's identity instead of the Demon's, but that might sway things too far the other direction.
After reading the rules a bit more from the site I see that the Lunatic doesn't have to know the Demon's identity, that's just what happened in this game. That changes things a lot.
Hi Justin, thanks for your comment. This is Evin here. A Lunatic who's figured it out can be beneficial for the Good Team, but prior to that they're essentially playing with someone who isn't trying to coordinate with the Good Team. It's kind of like the Klutz in Sects & Violets - a Klutz who picks a Good player when they die gets *great* information, which can be super useful to the Good Team... but sometimes they'll lose the entire game. The strategic choice for the demon is whether or not to try and keep the Lunatic deluded by killing the same targets. But even so, there are so many ways to die and not die in BMR that even real demons often have completely different people than their targets die. This means that the demon could probably get away with at least one night of killing different targets, and the Lunatic still won't know for sure that they're the Lunatic. Or, the demon might decide that they *want* the Lunatic to publicly claim that they think they're the Lunatic. Often, players who claim Lunatic will get executed by the group anyway "just in case" they're really the demon, so if the real demon can get the timing right then having the group waste a day by executing the Lunatic can win them the game. The presence of the Mastermind on the script also often keeps the Lunatic from claiming anything publicly until a whole day after their own execution. There's also the matter of what 'minions' you choose for the Lunatic. If you want the Lunatic's illusion to be sustained, it's often useful to pick actual evil players so that they can reassure the Lunatic that they're really the demon. If you pick a Good player, then the 'minion' will often say "No, don't worry, you're not the demon." However, there are still ways that players have twisted even this! I've seen legit Good Team players who the Lunatic thinks are minions reassure the Lunatic that they are in fact the demon. The reason for this is that it means the Lunatic will trust them pretty much no matter what - this Good Team player now has another player who will vote with them in pretty much any execution, which is very useful when you're trying to get the demon executed. It's a way to build trust with a player, even if that player is under the illusion that you're both actually on different teams. And likewise, I've seen people playing as the Mastermind tell the *real* demon "no, you're not the demon," and then go on to win the game with their Mastermind ability when they get their own demon executed after outing them as the 'Lunatic'.
Filip is on point. In the Trouble Brewing video, he figured out Julian and Lewis were not only the evil pair, but which of them was the demon, and he had that figured out early, then in this video, the moment he is brought back to life, he goes after Claire right away.
Thanks man! Figuring it out is a bittersweet moment, because as you can see it's not always easy to convince the group! I also tend to get excited when I know the truth and misspeak, which people use against me as Julian did in Trouble Brewing. So keep your cool during the big plays, everyone!
Please keep posting more playthrough videos. It will help pass the time while waiting for our copies to arrive.
Still waiting Nathan? Hmmm? ;) 8------D
Two months away!!
@@Immafuggin182 lol, you think it's actually going to be out "on time"
@@n.talbert yea I do
@@Immafuggin182 I joked with friends that frosthaven would arrive before blood and thats about to come true. There's a game right now on kickstarter called deep rock galactic that has 5 days to fund. I know nothing about it other than it looks like a big game and its popular. I'd go as far as saying that will be delivered before blood on the clocktower.
29:22That Moment when Doug says "Someone tried to nail the Tea Lady early on." and the storyteller laughs to himself while no one else caught it.
I am SO excited for this game, I cannot wait for it to come out. This looks like so much fun and I cannot wait to run it for my friends. I especially love how the whole Lunatic/Demon thing went down.
The Lunatic figuring it out seems like it swung the game for the good team, this was an awesome playthrough ^_^
How did he do it? I didn't get that..
@@ItJamesIs he saw Doug doubled up with someone else, which likely a minion, but he knew Claire was his minion already, so something doesn't add up on his end...
@@andypro92 thanks, that makes sense!
@@andypro92 I'm sorry I don't understand what everyone means when they say "Doubled up". Could you please clarify?
@@morblitz In Blood on the Clocktower, normally no two players can have the same character. [There are exceptions - some special characters will allow this. The Lunatic means that two characters can THINK they are the same demon, but actually only one is.] So, if two players claim to be the same character (i.e. "doubling up") it means that at least one - sometimes both! - are lying. The Lunatic wasn't expecting two good players to end up getting into a dispute about who was the Exorcist, so it was likely one of them was Evil. But he wasn't expecting either of them to be Evil if he was the Demon, so he was able to realise he wasn't the Demon; he was actually the Lunatic.
I was not ready, for this gift.
It's such a pleasure to watch your games. Evin is great at explaining game and what happens. Players are very strategic and intelligent about how the play. I haven't play the game myself it (it will be soon published and my country!) and I hope to run it as a storyteller. So I'm watching to learn how to run it and how to make fun for the players.
The first thing dude says is "I think I'm the lunatic." I'm thinking he probably played the whole game like that.
You know that meme of the cereal guy spitting out his cereal? That was me when I saw this video uploaded.
Claire is awfully quiet, this would put instant suspicion in a group where I am from :D
Heyo, Evin here. I spent much of my early days playing Clocktower going after the quieter players because I thought being quiet meant being suspicious. Turns out they were mostly just quiet and we were killing Good players (which the Evil Team was only too happy to assist with).
What's tricky is that there are a few players I know who talk *more* when they're Evil. Their M.O. to reduce their threat level is to actually try to talk less.
My group also gets super suspicious, but really only when we ask a player for information and they continue to clam up.
yay...new playthrough!
Doug was pretty much thrown under the bus by both his Demon and the Good team, he didn't have any bluff to use...
Hey Andy, this is Evin here. I'm told that Claire tried to get one of her bluffs over to Doug to use, but she couldn't find a moment to get him alone to do it subtly. Michael was always within listening distance.
@@BloodontheClocktower this is one of the reasons our group allows people to veer off the circle to talk.
I didn't see where Michael saw that he was the Shabaloth, but he must have known, since he picked two players N1. Not sure what Doug bluffed as, but it didn't work! And when Filip came back, and this point in my mind Claire hasn't said anything and is SUPER suspicious. She had no good bluff at the end and Doug bluffing as the Exorcist was bad luck (Claire needed to tell him an out of play role). It happened fast, and maybe the good team didn't need the help... Maybe Claire's ONLY move would be to claim she figured out she's the lunatic, and nominate Michael. But with the Exorcist back in play, she couldn't. So yes, Claire had no bluffs, lost her team mate, and a hugely powerful townsfolk came back. Odds were stacked against her! But, it was a fun game...and I would definitely be asking to run it back for a rematch after this!
The role you draw says which demon you are. For the lunatic, they see the demon role, and the demon see's the lunatic role. They are swapped in the grimoire after all the tokens return. Then the demon is shown "you are:" followed by which demon they are.
@@MikeyDonnelly Ah...right. The real demon needs to know which demon they are because they draw the Lunatic first. But the Lunatic has the actual Shabaloth token. Got it.
I feel like regurgitating Fil might’ve been a mistake that swung the game a bit too far in favor of Good, with the Mastermind having just been executed.
Yeah, after a lot of time with this game in the public eye and with the benefit of hindsight I tend to agree. I didn't think they were that much on to the demon. Still, in a Shabaloth game you mostly want to regurgitate at least one player at some point, and this night was very likely the last night where there'd be an opportunity to do so. The Tea Lady and Exorcist were the only players that could have been regurgitated, but bringing the Tea Lady back would have been super tough on the Evil Team. The Tea Lady would have been highly trusted, and neighbouring the Lunatic and a demon pretending to be the Lunatic's minion. The town would probably have tried to execute one of the Tea Lady's neighbours, meaning the demon would have pushed for their Lunatic to be executed and the Lunatic would have pushed for their "minion" to be executed. So bringing back the Tea Lady would have meant that either the demon was executed, or the minion had to mostly abandon their minion bluff.
- Evin
At that point the chambermaid had all the info to solve the game, so as long as she was listened to, evil had already lost.
However, I feel like the lunatic & demon sank a kill to try to hide the Shabaloth's identity, and it was a little punishing to directly go against that play by verifying a Shabaloth through regurgitation.
I'm also wondering if it ever pays off (for evil) to give the demon as a lunatic's minion. Won't the lunatic always want to throw the demon under the bus to save himself?
@@brockmarie I think it’s pretty rare for a Lunatic to get to final day still thinking they’re the Demon. Once you know you’re good, it’s pretty common to meta that the ST probably made at least one of your “minions” evil, but it’s usually not as simple as getting the town to kill them just in case.
25:06 "So I told the lunatic Michael that his minion was actually the real demon" sounds like you told michael "yo your minion is actually a demon", took me a while to realise you meant "I falsely told michael that claire is his minion, when claire is actually the demon"
As an aspiring storyteller, please post a walkthrough video as the Storyteller! :)
Hey Dom, this is Evin here. It's something that's definitely on our 'to-do' list and we hope to have something like this out there in 2020 by the time the games are delivered.
@@BloodontheClocktower oh awesome!! Thanks for responding. :) cant wait for the game!
Huh I just realised what the mastermind being the minion reminds me of! Hugo Strange from Arkham City!
We play this on zoom all the time I don't know that I am smart enough to play in person without the aid of notes how the heck do you keep track of everything
When you're playing in person regularly, you develop bit of a knack for recalling claims and people's information. All the same, the chaos is all part of the fun of it too. :)
- Evin
23:55 Here Claire learned about the lunatic „kills“ but isn’t sent to sleep before she chooses her kills. In the night before she is send to sleep for the exorcist to act. Isn’t that and easy way to tell for the demon that there was an exorcist who is dead now?
I'm sorry, but I'm struggling to understand what it is that you're asking. Can you please rephrase it? - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower ok I just list what happens
Night 2 12:43 :
Lunatic wakes up and chooses targets then goes back to sleep
Then Shabalot wakes up and learns about the lunatic choices and goes back to sleep
Then the exorcist wakes up and uses his ability
Then the shabalot wakes up again and now chooses his victims
In Night 3 23:33
The shabalot is allowed to choose their victims as soon as they learn about the lunatic choice without going back to sleep for the exorcist to act.
Doesn’t that provide intel to the shabalot because he doesn’t need to go to sleep after they learn about the lunatic pics
So the Exorcist has to wake before the Demon gets to kill, because the Exorcist can stop the Demon from being allowed to kill. The Storyteller could have simply waited until after the Exorcist chose a player and then woke the Shabaloth and given them the Lunatic information, as well as getting their choices for the kill, but he chose to do the two things separately.
Mechanically, it makes absolutely no difference if he does them together or separately, as long as the Exorcist gets to go first.
It's worth keeping in mind that this video is nearly six years old, filmed before the game was even funded on Kickstarter, let alone released, and probably uses a very old and defunct version of the night order as well.
- Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower ah ok thank you very much. Ofc I understand just learning for when I try to run it one day. Thank you very much for the answer and have a nice day :)
At 23:39, Evin wakes the Lunatic, then the Exorcist, then the Demon. It doesn't really matter, but I was expecting the Exorcist to be woken before the Lunatic; was there a reason Evin did it in that order?
Dylan Thurston I think the order in the night sheet is Lunatic first. It’s important that the exorcist is always woken before the demon as if they’re picked correctly, they do not get the opportunity to attack.
Hi Dylan, Cloyphish is correct. The Exorcist doesn't affect the Lunatic, so the Lunatic can be woken before the Exorcist. But because the Exorcist can affect what the demon does, they need to be woken before the demon. The general order of night actions goes: Poisoners, Protectors, Killers, then Everyone Else. The Exorcist is 'Poisoning' the demon, in a way, so they act early on.
@@BloodontheClocktower Yet this was a mistake, because later on, when the exorcist is dead, the demon does not get put to sleep after learning who their lunatic targeted (around 24:00) thus giving the real demon very valuable information they should not actually have.
@@Glitch215 I actually think the mistake was at 13:10. The demon should not have been woken at all until after the exorcist acts. It should have been Lunatic picking people, exorcist picks a person, then demon learns who lunatic picked, then picks people themselves. So the demon actually learned information by being woken up, put back to sleep, then woken up again.
This would probably just be fixed by doing exorcist -> lunatic -> demon, then you can't possibly run into this issue
Gotta love that Syney air traffic
Didn't everyone look at their tokens as they drew them out of the bag at the beginning of the game (@ 1:55)? If that is the case, wouldn't Michael know he was actually the Lunatic the entire game?
Hey Kyle, Michael here. I drew out the Shabaloth token. As there is only 1 Shabaloth Token, Evin set this up with both the Lunatic and Shabaloth in the bag. In this case, The person who draws the Shabaloth is the Lunatic, and the person who draws the Lunatic is actually the true Shabaloth. Hope this helps :)
That's really clever
@@cloyphishs1049 That makes sense but it also means that the real demon knows they're not the lunatic which I think does take some fun out of it
@@danepatton2252 hi Dane, I believe the storyteller can indicate who the “actual demon is” to a lunatic (but not actually the demon). Remember, the lunatic thinks they’re the demon. A good person to indicate as “the demon” to the lunatic would be a minion. I don’t see why the ST declare the person who draws the lunatic as the actual lunatic
i really hope this game will get shipped to Indonesia...
Didn't matter much in this game but I found you super optimistic saying you regurgitated Filip to give a chance to the townfolks. Michael, in his bluff, announced Claire as the Fool, which make her a very easy target to purgatory (which makes sense, considering Michael thought she was her minion, so cannon fodder). Even without the Chambermaid play and Michael realizing he was the Lunatic, I suspected a vote against Claire coming. I really don't see any reason to stack even more odds against the Demon at this point. Sure, Michael played the Demon well, but since he's not the Demon, it didn't help Claire that much.
It did all fall apart for the Evil Team pretty quickly there. I think they still had a shot after bringing Fil back to life, but the way that Fil handled Doug doubling up with him (he drew opinions from Doug before Doug knew that he was under suspicion) meant that they were then able to find the demon pretty quickly. Not only is it unlucky that Doug doubled up his bluff with another player, he happened to pick the player that was regurgitated and so the player that was most trusted.
@@BloodontheClocktower The storyteller playing kingmaker kind of kills this for me. I feel like it takes away any sense of accomplishment for the players.
@@gmcookie14 I agree it's fair that it might look like that just from watching a couple of games, but it's actually very difficult for a Storyteller to outright decide the outcome in any particular game unless they're making a lot of decisions in genuine bad faith (the same way a DM could drop a horde of dragons onto a band of lvl 1 adventurers and wipe them out - it's technically within the rules of D&D to do so but isn't really what the DM is there to do). We had many play-test nights where one team or the other went on a winning streak and no matter how hard the Storyteller tried to get a win to the other team, they were thwarted every time.
But having said all that, I probably wouldn't have regurgitated Fil - or maybe anyone - this game if I'd had a better sense of how far behind the eight ball the Evil Team was. This isn't to take anything away from the players - the Good Team earned this win - it's just a place where my Storytelling could probably have been better. Storytellers won't always make the perfect decisions for balance, but so long as they have a good reason or motivation for making the decisions they do and they have the fun of the players as the number 1 priority, they'll be fine.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower I don't think it is objectively a bad thing that the Storyteller has some power to shift the game one way or the other, like a DM. I'm certain some people are more attracted to it for exactly that reason. Personally, I just can't imagine feeling satisfied with the outcome of a team-based game that hinged entirely on a seemingly arbitrary decision from someone who wasn't even supposed to be on one of the teams. I am interested in the game and hope to find that can be just as enjoyable without the prospect of 'moving goalposts'.
Filip and Maria-Regina seemed really confident of each other's identity--what was the reason for that?
Hey Dylan, this is Evin here. Do you mean in this play-through or the Trouble Brewing play-through? (In TB, they were able to trust each other because they each received information about what role the other one was, and it matched up.) In this video, Sarah-Regina and Lewis were able to confirm each other and trust each other from Reggie's information as the Grandmother and Lewis's ability as the Gambler. For Sarah-Regina and Fil in this game, pretty much everyone trusted Fil because he was regurgitated by the Shabaloth, and they trusted Sarah-Regina because she died at night, so those two players had pretty good cause to trust each other.
How are they able to kill dead players and what’s the difference between kill and attack?
In case nobody's answered this for you yet, I've read like everything I can (rules, wiki, character almanacs, forum posts, etc) and watched every video I can find on this game, and I think I can answer it. A demon (and some minions) can attack any player they choose (unless their ability specifically says "alive player"), then the storyteller has to determine if the character dies, because some abilities can stop death. Attacks are chosen by the attacking players, but death is a possible result of an attack. Attacking a dead player cannot kill them again, obviously. In Bad Moon Rising, one of the demons is the zombul, who doesn't actually die the first time they appear to die. Basically, the storyteller says they died, but the zombul continues to act and because of this, the rules do allow players to nominate a dead character for executions, but unless that character is a zombul, they can't die again, though if the vote passes, that counts as the one execution for the day.
So, attacks and executions can cause death, but if the rules care about an attack or an execution, the rule only cares that a player was chosen to be attacked or that an execution happens, even if the death was prevented.
I played this at Meeplecon India. It's just one of the best games I've ever played...😍
Imp here btw..😂
Sweet! I hear that Arun and Ashutosh are running some great games :)
I played this thrice at meeplecon!!..
1st game: Recluse
2nd game: Virgin who got killed at night without getting nominated :(
3rd game: Scarlett woman who had to execute Imp with others due to too much heat on him and then became Imp and carried game to victory :D
so with the godfather, the reminder token for a kill says "dies at midnight". whats the difference between dying and dying at midnight?
This is an earlier version of the token with a bit of flourish on it. 'Midnight' isn't going to be a game/rules term, and the final reminder tokens for the Godfather will say 'Died Today' (if an Outsider dies) and 'Dead' (for the player the Godfather chooses to kill).
- Evin
come on, turn the lights down and get some candles going
😅
More!
As storyteller, I would have messed up the night 1 chambermaid so bad.
Storytelling does take a bit to get the knack of - much like the difference between playing DnD as a player (simple enough) or as the Dungeon Master (must know all the rules and be able to run the game) but it's all there in the Grimoire for you. After enough time with Trouble Brewing, stepping up to the more complex editions shouldn't be a problem. :)
Why does the lunatic keep proposing that people execute him? Is he really sure he is in fact not the demon? Or is it maybe trying to see if his ‘minion’ will try and protect him, otherwise he is probably the lunatic?
Hi Manus, this is Evin here. The reason that Michael, as the Lunatic, kept trying to get himself executed was because Claire had told him that she was the Mastermind and he was trying to get a win using the Mastermind's ability. Claire told Michael this so that Michael would not have as strongly suspected himself of being the Lunatic when he got executed and the game continued. Getting yourself executed as the demon to try and get a win through the Mastermind's ability is a common enough strategy for the Evil Team: Gather trust with the group by volunteering to get yourself executed, then use that trust the next day to try and get a Good player executed and win.
We found Marianna quite amusing. She reminds me quite a bit of one of my former students.
I just have to say, Michael's tactics seem questionable to me. As the lunatic, he believed he was the shabaloth, yet he nominates himself multiple times, claiming to be a sailor wanting to know if he's drunk. First of all, if you ARE the sailor, why would you want to put yourself on the chopping block? If you die, you haven't proven anything. If you don't die, you still haven't proven you are the sailor, as there could be a pacifist or devil's advocate in play. Secondly, if you think you are the demon, which he did at that point, why in the world would you risk getting yourself killed? I mean, I get the possible bluff, but... seems questionable.
Michael was a fun agent of chaos in these videos, so there's probably an element of that to it. But also there's a strong meta-strategy in some (but not all) groups that play BOTC where players who are asking to be executed are less likely to be the demon... so demons will sometimes ask to be executed in order to make people trust them and bluff them into thinking they're not the demon. :)
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower Absolutely no one in my group wants to die. Everyone is so keen on staying alive to keep their vote, that one of my players didn't even nominate himself when he was the Virgin. I've had a Gossip who was too afraid to make statements. These examples come from my "veteran" players.
@@DyrianLightbringer That's absolutely a fair way to play as well, and each group will typically establish its own meta. Some groups, en masse, will accept death more willingly, while others will all typically fight to stay alive. Each path comes with its own advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I almost always fight to stay alive, but not because I always particularly value my own life/ability within the game, but because it's a way to mask to the rest of the group whether I'm good or Evil. If I'm usually happy to die when I'm on the Good Team, then my group will know I'm more likely to be on the Evil Team on the occasions that I'm fighting not to be executed. To get around this, I make sure to always be fighting so that I've got cover when I'm on the Evil Team.
- Evin
@DyrianLightbringer Remember Claire also told him that she was the Mastermind, so he could also have been trying to get a sort of surprise Mastermind victory with its special win condition.
It was either a play to make him look less evil, or in my opinion, the most likely option, was he was going for a mastermind win. Claire told Michael she was the mastermind, so he would want to get executed early, say he was made drunk, maybe have the exorcist pick someone then have that person get executed and an evil victory (he didn’t know Julian was the exorcist tho).
Filip is cute. That is all.
The Lunatic seems like it almost has too much power over the game; if the real Demon doesn't follow the Lunatic's choices then pretty quickly the Lunatic will probably know what they are and therefor would also know that the Demon is really the Demon. If the Demon simply chooses the same targets as the Lunatic then they almost don't get to play their own real character either. If the Lunatic is killed for any reason they also know their true role (because the game didn't end) and can throw the real Demon under the bus.
I'd be curious to see how the Lunatic plays over a larger sample of games and to know how often they are the one to bring the Demon down ultimately. I almost feel like the Lunatic should learn the true Minion's identity instead of the Demon's, but that might sway things too far the other direction.
It seems to me the Storyteller decides who the "minion" for the Lunatic is, so they could choose to make it the actual minion.
There are multiple powers that can block deaths, it doesn't have to be because you are a lunatic.
After reading the rules a bit more from the site I see that the Lunatic doesn't have to know the Demon's identity, that's just what happened in this game. That changes things a lot.
Hi Justin, thanks for your comment. This is Evin here. A Lunatic who's figured it out can be beneficial for the Good Team, but prior to that they're essentially playing with someone who isn't trying to coordinate with the Good Team. It's kind of like the Klutz in Sects & Violets - a Klutz who picks a Good player when they die gets *great* information, which can be super useful to the Good Team... but sometimes they'll lose the entire game.
The strategic choice for the demon is whether or not to try and keep the Lunatic deluded by killing the same targets. But even so, there are so many ways to die and not die in BMR that even real demons often have completely different people than their targets die. This means that the demon could probably get away with at least one night of killing different targets, and the Lunatic still won't know for sure that they're the Lunatic. Or, the demon might decide that they *want* the Lunatic to publicly claim that they think they're the Lunatic. Often, players who claim Lunatic will get executed by the group anyway "just in case" they're really the demon, so if the real demon can get the timing right then having the group waste a day by executing the Lunatic can win them the game. The presence of the Mastermind on the script also often keeps the Lunatic from claiming anything publicly until a whole day after their own execution.
There's also the matter of what 'minions' you choose for the Lunatic. If you want the Lunatic's illusion to be sustained, it's often useful to pick actual evil players so that they can reassure the Lunatic that they're really the demon. If you pick a Good player, then the 'minion' will often say "No, don't worry, you're not the demon." However, there are still ways that players have twisted even this! I've seen legit Good Team players who the Lunatic thinks are minions reassure the Lunatic that they are in fact the demon. The reason for this is that it means the Lunatic will trust them pretty much no matter what - this Good Team player now has another player who will vote with them in pretty much any execution, which is very useful when you're trying to get the demon executed. It's a way to build trust with a player, even if that player is under the illusion that you're both actually on different teams. And likewise, I've seen people playing as the Mastermind tell the *real* demon "no, you're not the demon," and then go on to win the game with their Mastermind ability when they get their own demon executed after outing them as the 'Lunatic'.