An In-Depth Analysis of the Fire Lancers!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2024
- The Chinese Fire Lancers are one of the most unique units in Age of Empires 4. They are available in the Castle Age once the player achieves the Yuan Dynasty. They have, however, raised some concerns about their design and balance, so here's an exploration of the unit's stats, matchups, strengths, and weaknesses. Enjoy!
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#AgeofEmpires4 #FireLancers #Chinese
0:00 - 0:20 - Intro
0:21 - 2:34 - Unit Stats
2:35 - 4:36 - Fire Lancer Charge Mechanic
4:37 - 5:19 - Test vs Spearmen
5:20 - 5:50 - Test vs Man-at-Arms
5:51 - 6:32 - Test vs Landsknechts
6:33 - 6:49 - Test vs Horsemen
6:50 - 9:11 - Test vs Knights
9:12 - 10:12 - Test vs Camel Riders
10:13 - 11:01 - Test vs War Elephants
11:02 - 11:56 - Test vs Archers & Crossbows
11:57 - 12:26 - Test vs Mangudai
12:27 - 12:48 - Test vs Horse & Camel Archer
12:49 - 13:33 - Torch Damage Intro
13:34 - 14:19 - Fire Lancers & Siege Damage vs Buildings
14:20 - 15:28 - Fire Lancers vs Rams against Buildings
15:29 - 15:41 - AoE2 Example
15:42 - 17:26 - Discussion on Fire Lancers' Gamestyle
17:27 - 18:37 - Suggestions on Tweaking Fire Lancers
18:38 - 19:27 - Conclusion - เกม
![[TH] LEV vs TLN | TE vs VIT - VALORANT Champions 2024 DAY 3](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_AbmrWv2lO0/mqdefault.jpg)
The Fire Lancers were a lot more nuanced than I originally anticipated, leading to the longest edited game analysis video I've ever published so far on the channel. I hope I was able to share a few meaningful insights on the Chinese unique unit with you folks! Let me know in the comments below on any other topic you'd like me to explore. As always, thanks for tuning everyone, and more content is on the way!
Check how beastyqt prove firelancers useless with scouts and horsearchers, he demolish firelancers
I'd suggest also a general buff to horsemen, since now they are just a super niche unit right now.
You should have created two groups of fire lancers and attack and retreat each after another.
Because if you let the Fire Lancer run back for 3 seconds it actually charges the charge and can do more damage again in a very short notice.
It is a hit and attack unit as long as two groups of it available.
Fire lancers are actually quite weak. Zhuke nukes wreck then, so do archers, and MAA actually win too. Try using line formation or spread formation, and for fucks sake done clump everyone and let the fire lancer charge!!! Real players micro their units. I didn’t see a bit of good micro in your tests.
@@mrsupa444 Micro is your idea of a valid counter to this? That's like telling someone that you wont drown if you have your breath underwater. Any advantage gained by micro is countered by micro. The problem is, if skill is the only answer and army composition is irrelevant, then the competitive scene is going to look like the warring kingdoms era since it will become a contest of who can play the Chinese better. After all, how many work harder to enable an inferior tool?
He used spread formation in the 5 v10 knight test and the end result was negligible. Refer to the charge mechanic explanation for the the shear SIZE of the blast radius, and how that makes formations inviable. More, micro has its limits (specifically in mental exhaustion) and the current answer to a well controlled army is 'bigger ball of 'splodey horses'. The effort needed to use fire lancers effectively is much lower the effort needed to counter them, such that with similarly skilled players the one with fire lancers will win well over 50% of the time. That is why its a matter of balance.
A 20 minute edited video from Age of Noob on game mechanics? Hell freaking yeah!
Knights are usually not faster due to yuan dynasty's movement speed bonus. So unless ur fighting another yuan knights or mongol knights you'll be able to run away and reengage after the charge comes up again
yeah the guy probably never played china. his analysis has so many mistakes
@@roarkthunderbird4698 no he said that on a part of the video but he forget that. He said that on a repost of a comment.
i recommend self damage for balance, also historically accurate
it’s basic speed is 1.5 yuan dynasty gives speed boost to all units
AHH, I thought I lost my mind. I've been editing the video the entire day - I thought I made a mistake and was confused. Thank you!
@@AgeofNoob it’s why i prefer staying in yuan, the movement bonus make a huge difference for siege duel, palace guard, and reinforcements, grenadiers’ performance just don’t quiet cut it, they are best used in small groups of 10 or 15 and think them more like mangonels that dies to mangonels.
@@minmean3016 Don't forget vills and the eco bonus even tho it's not too amazing
@@minmean3016 Indeed, also found out that you can go Ming first then go Yuan and now you get a faster Grenadier
@@downbook too much investment, i won’t try this unless it’s black forest
The fun fact:
Yuan Dynasty was a Chinese Dynasty that was built by Mongolian conquerors.
(see also the Mongolian Campain.
And you may tell the difference fire lancers' iron helmet goes with Mongolian style )
however the Original Mongolian are difficult to defend the Fire Lancers rush their Landmarks.
"You dare use my own spells against me?"
Ah nice, thanks for sharing!
"however the Original Mongolian are difficult to defend the Fire Lancers rush their Landmarks."
This kind of make sense, because they combine the strength of both the chinese and the mongolian.
@@Grothgerek Well, in history you're right.
Song Dynasty mostly is the first civilization that systematically use gun powder in the military.
Although they finally are defeated by the Mongolian because of some other problems.
But the Mongolians are well known for learning new knowledge and technology.
Just like they use Arabic Trebuchet to attack China castle, they found the power of gun powder, then soonly combined it with their own military.
Well alright but you all forget something. The Fire Lance was NOT an invention of Yuan China neither it was used by Mongols. Quite the opposite, it was used against the Mongols and it was a known anti-cavalry weapon(unlike how it is portraited now as the smoke and the rocket on it was very fatal for enemy horses). The Jin and Song dynasties used this weapon for their cavalry as it was then when the rise of gunpowder units and Chinese medieval technologies occured. Even the fire arrows were based on the same mechanism of the Fire Lance. During the Yuan dynasty China fell more in a dark age rather making new inventions until the rise of the Ming. Finishing, I will live this passage
In 1233, Jin soldiers used fire lances successfully against the Mongols. Pucha Guannu led 450 Jin fire lancers and routed an entire Mongol encampment. The Mongol soldiers were apparently disdainful of other Jin weapons, but greatly feared the fire lance.[12]
Well, except it isn't their "spells" to begin with. Mongols, despite being the strongest army at the time, could be able to defeat the Han Chinese and conquer all of China, was all thanks to the heavily corrupted Song Dynasty (it was falling apart anyway) and Han Chinese talented generals were helping the Mongols to conquer their own people.
Really loved the longer form video giving us an in depth analysis on the firelancers Age of Noob ! I can tell A TON of effort went into this, and it may take a lot more time and energy than your shorter videos but I'd love to see more of these ! I just can't overstate how well made this one was, getting major spirit of the law vibes !
Also am i the only one that feels like the developers need to give us more information about mechanics and abilities in game ? Like i feel all passive abilities should have an ability card on the unit which we can hover over and read, like they should tell us what the minimum tile range is to execute a charge and show us a proper cooldown timer every time it goes on cooldown, I read somewhere that someone did some testing to show that ALL units have a charge ability which gives them enhanced movement speed for 5 seconds when running into enemies from a certain (not calculated) distance and that this ability has a 10 second cooldown (most units do not even have real visual indicators to show when this charge is ready ) and the Knights have a special charge which deals bonus damage, gives the speed/ lasts for 7 seconds and has a 15 second cooldown instead of 10(id love to see you do a video on the charge and other hidden mechanics someday ! )... I also read that spears had a bracing cooldown, but that seemed to have been a bug more than an intended mechanic i guess, and before the current patch the spears used to only brace when holding position or idle/given the stop command...i feel these are things we should NOT have to research ourselves, the mechanics of the game should be clear to make learning easier and playing a lot more intuitive (also will help us realise and point out bugs when mechanics aren't so mysterious instead of considering those bugs as the intended function of the features )
Just came across you recently due to grubby, love the way you display the troops in close, subbed
Thank you for the support Debs! :)
I remember my first encounter.. we had a rus team mate that walled up, and a blob of 50 fire lancers instantly burned through that, eliminated him in a minute, then me, and the rest of my team
The siege damage is really, really ridiculous. Feels like stupid fast petards.
A petard that do not die after they explode on top of that. ;)
These are a lot better than I thought. Cool to see initial impressions from the betas evolve as the game is figured out.
this was a fantastic breakdown, thank you
I've watched a match up. The gu spread his unit out to counter play the fire lancers which worked out extremly well
Age of Springalds is over - Age of Fire Lancers has begun
They were strong as much in age of springalds xd one time my army was steamrolled by fire lancers haha
@@kurrwa wouldn't mass springald beat them?
Great video man. You hit gold on this one.
great vid. i'd love it if you could explore the mangonel and how it fairs against the different generic infantry units. if it can be easily overrun by spearmen and or man at arms (using equal resources) for example. Does it really counter infantry or specifically only ranged infantry. Do xbow actually counter it. All these interesting questions
Man, this makes me miss the mass strelet and oprichinik in aoe3 so much
fire lancer is like they fused the oprichinik and the curassier into one unit with no downsides lmao, idk what the hell they were thinking
Thanks, I'm starting to rely on you a lot to figure out my game plan. I've been really wondering how inspired HRE units would do against or compared to their counter parts, like inspired HRE knights vs royal knights or inspired HRE crossbows vs arbalests, inspired archers vs longbows, bombards etc. Also how much better are warships with relics in docks. Thanks again for these videos.
dang man your production value is getting higher and higher
Man, your thumbnail game is good but this time it was especially crazy. Super well done.
Thanks Northern! The animations of the Landsknechts flying backwards from the charge was nicely done by the devs, so I captured it!
Fancy seeing you here! :D
Thank you for the great content.
I do have a question regarding the music, where can i find it?
I do like the song at 13:33.
Excellent ;) ! Thanks :)
Do they benefit from the University gunpowder upgrade? I wasn't sure there would be something I hate more than french knights but the fire lancers running through people's bases unchecked is unplayable. People aren't even using them to fight unless they see easy kills. They're just destroying every building they touch and move on. Doesn't help that the Chinese can see all your villagers ahead of time and get free vision of where most everything is. Just split your lancers up into 3 groups and take out three landmarks at the same time.
Thanks, great video
High quality content!
To make a balance change for fire lancer,
Don’t reduce their damage.
Just make their explosive charge attack would hurt themselves.
This deserves a sub!
Thank you for the support :)
damn didn't realise how stronk they are
Fire Lancers go badaboom! I actually laughed out loud at the Landsknechts test. :D
landsknechts need to be nerf'd vs fire lancers, change my mind
@@LcHR21212 And remember landsknechts cost more resources than fire lancers lol
Thank you for confirming I'm not insane. I main HRE and I have died to mass fire lancers so many times recently. Now I know why even mass spears has failed to help me against these annoying units
HRE spearman (and Delhi) are currently bugged and don't brace which is what ruins the fire lancers.
@@brubie7584 Yes. I know now. That was the point of my comment.
@@lucaxtshotting2378 Huh? The point of my comment was that the video explained that HRE spearmen are bugged... I main HRE (as I said in my original comment) and now I know why I can never counter the fire lancers. Delhi has nothing to do with this.
@@MattSmith-il4tc I’m late but wanted to add something, he’s stupid ignore him
So we nerf the torch damage for sure.
Maybe decrease the splash damage but bump the speed ever so slightly to make them more like a proper light cavalry unit?
Splash damage needs to be diminishing for sure imo. If they retain their damage, they should be slower than Knights though. If they nerf their damage so they lose consistently to Knights, then I'm okay with bumping up their speed. Either way, they'll need to tweak them somehow! :)
@@AgeofNoob yeah that "medium cavalry" role is really where they need to sit.
Like a cost effective way to deal with mass heavy infantry seems to be the correct role for them.
@@AgeofNoob their basic movement speed(without dynasty) is 1.5 and knights have 1.62, so knights are already faster.
Good video! Wish you would test with some more realistic army mixes with spears mixed in, or even better, look at actual footage from other streamers
I think you missed the point where fire lancers can completely avoid spears due to speed, and all the streamer footage you're talking about is high lvl 1v1s (where they aren't a problem)... tons of people want to play team games in aoe4 and these units ruin any semblance of fun because due to map size you can always mass them easily
Like the intro graphic!
Hey, nice video. Btw, what's the name of the song that starts playing at 16:27?
In the thumbnail, I literally read "Are Fire Lancers *Overpowdered* ?"
Well... are they overpowdered morant?
Would love to see an update on this since Fire Lancers were changed some time ago.
thank for this job.
so spearman counter them so why all the fuss?
Hey, do you think it would be worth it to build a web app that allows you to create/share/view build orders for aoe4 ? Would you personally use it ?
Hey mate - I know those solutions do exist for AOE2, so they would definitely be used by the AoE4 community as well. I'd do a quick search if something similar exists though before starting the project :)
Delhi once again totally OP!
Had a 3 vs 3 game where i overchopped trees and made a gap in my stone walls, and just like that i'm queuing for the next game 😂
Have you done a video on the Chinese men at arms?
Can u update the stat after the nerf?
I played a team game last night against a Chinese player. At one point, he built 100 fire lancers and just ran through my mate’s base in 60 seconds, destroying all the landmarks. The torch damage is insane.
Too bad you haven't taken a quick look on the bonuses they get. Fire lancers usually have the dynasties speed bonus making them even more broken.
Hey Age of Noob is that you playing the guitar in the outro. Just curious
I wish mate, I wish. :D
While I think they are too strong in some situations - I am not sure what you say about the correct price point for them since you have to invest in a 2nd castle landmark which costs 1200/600 to unlock them.
I think especially torch damage to buildings needs to be lowered.
1200f 600g for a unique tech that gives you Spies, a ton of movement speed on all of your units, like +5 LoS on your buildings, access to better food eco, and gives access to the unique unit. It's worth every penny
Man commments like 'it costs 1200/600' and 'just kill them before they mass them' are not grounded in reality... they might not be a problem in high level pro 1v1, but in team games they are pure cancer for the reasons in the video.
@@MrReno888 In my original comment I also wrote that I think they need to be nerved.. especially the building damage.
I just wanted to say that I think the cost comparison of horsemen vs fire lancer (as in the video) is not completely fair since you have additional costs to get there... But as I initially wrote I think they are too strong and should receive some sort of balancing.
@@MrReno888 I don't think he said anything about killing them before massing them, but pointing out that there is a considerable investment to unlock making them
I think nobody here has ever played team games. Nobody rushes fire lancers. As China you want to go double feudal for the civ boom, the amazing villages and the zung nue to have at least some kind of decent unit to stop early aggression or do some yourself, that puts you back a few minutes. Next you wanna stay there as long as possible to keep the buff to the villager training time cause when you go for the next Dynasty, its gone. Next you want do go for the double castle. By now your opponent should have noticed by scouting what you are up to and is probably about to hit imperial. You are now behind on resources and time. You'll probably never hit Ming anyway and it's 20 - 25 minutes into the game. And lets e for real, the barbican is garbage in the castle age, the tax thingy is marginal since nobody will collect the taxes anyway and the imperial Palace is trah cause you can probably guess where his vills are anyway. Sure I agree, nerf the torch damage vs buildings but for Christ's sake, leave the rest be or its just another Landsknecht that does nothing and never gets built cause its too much effort for the return.
I wish you had gone a bit more into the balance of the Chinese needing to get castle age twice to unlock them.
How is that not a problem in team games?
I also noted that you didn't cover how they function in Imperial age since there a castle age unit.
while not argueign the result: why didn't you have seige weapons fire at the fire lances?
Hey how about the tower war elephant matchup
well you use attack command not attack move so i can't really tell if engage correctly what will happans
but i can tell that FL charge is very broken
thank for a great video!
With better spread micro you can take them on with horse archers.
so the HRE just straight up have no counter to these beside stone walls?
A counter everything unit that acts as a better siege unit than actual defenseless siege units?
classical Relic' balance...
Love the sheep at 1:07: "Helo iam strong unit as well, bäääää!!!"
To sum it up , china now has 2 insanely units in late game that can end games very fast , with players just going for landmarks kill. Fuck it then i will play only china in 4v4 and customs ... and mass firelancers like there is no tommorow and raid raid raid raid raid until no player will ever want to play with me.
China as a civ needs some balance , as known for relic balancing team this will take a long time to be addressed
Preach it brother.
I think the cost of the unit is fine, because you have to build two Age 3 landmarks to unlock them in the first place, but the area-of-effect damage and fire damage are ridiculous and absolutely need to be scaled back.
would have been nice to see the fights without all enemies being clumped up. I'm sure the results would be quite different. (not different enough not to warrant a nerf, but enough to make the engagements less one-sided.)
Also the keep should have had boiling oil, which would have made that engagement muuuuch worse for the firelancers. They'd still destroy it but take signifficantly more damage.
Anyways, great video as always. Thanks for all your time and effort you put into these!
He already said that the spread formation is basicaly usless, and a lot of people don't reserch boiling oil
most team games it won't be 15 lancers it'll be like 50, they will kill a keep before the oil even touches them... they're pure cancer
@@TommyFit7 And that's not true. It just happens so that 5 spread out knights charging makes no defense as that also solves the pathing issue for fire lancer.
This experiment analysis is quite useful, but this is a lab test result. On live play, there are quite alot of decent players who can micro away and bait charges which just render it less effective, plus unit composition varies from players to players, since it would be foolish to only build one type of unit. Also the fact that players can just use stagger or wedge formation is enough to reduce the charge damage effectively. Maybe the line formation would work as well since the damage would be spread.
I agree that they should remove the anti-building thing they have, it doesn't make sense that they took over the role of siege units and should have the same damage as the rest of the calvary units. Instead, maybe also allow fire lancers to do their charge attack on sieges for the bonus damage and after revert to torch damage after the charge.
As for the resources cost, I can't say for sure increasing the unit cost would be good idea, especially when they would already spend vital resources to build the Landmarks to reach the Yuan dynasty, otherwise resources that could be used for techs or Imperial. It feels like the dev tried to offset the initial cost needed to unlock the unit by making it cheaper to produce.
As a Chinese main myself, I felt that the dev could nerf the bonus discount from the Spirit Way, as I find myself easy to pump them out with low cost. Or they could reduce the HP of Fire Lancer to be more vulnerable to other unit since they already have low armor to begin with. That way they should be at least give other calvary unit a more favourable engagement.
So since HRE's spears are bugged, massing Fire-lancers is a freewin?
What bug is it?
They can not brace atm
@@MrIronhat daheck? Age of bugs.. Only HRE spearman affected?
@@SuperLameRanger apparently Delhi spearman as well
Did they buff Fire Lancers or their effectiveness was undiscovered?
The only thing you didn't mention is that with an imperial officer they train in 5s.
I disagree on the price part. They are not cheaper than horseman due to the age 3 lock and also investing an extra landmark. I do think the aoe dmg needs a falloff.
I agree it’s got a large radius either just remove it or significantly lower it IMO
Yes
Why did you not try tower elephants? I actually managed to counter fire lancers with my tower elephants even though they are bugged for now.
Tower eles get wrecked cost for cost, esp if they have clocktower bombards... main problem with eles is they are worthless in team games due to taking 3 hours to cross the map
@@MrReno888 sure but this is head on test not actual battle to gauge units 1v1, he tested war elephant but not tower elephants that is all I am saying.
@@sphere3704 ya true it would have been good to see
I find that the fire lancers' AoE damage is only majorly a problem in the mid game, but towards the end-game heavily fall off. Knights (Especially French Royals) with upgrades in Imp age can easily trade and kill a Fire Lancer rush especially if the user isn't micro'ing them. Unfortunately though I have no clue how you are supposed to counter their siege damage and honestly the idea that they do Siege Engine level of damage as an extremely quick and cheap unit is insane to me. Personally I'd like to see their AoE radius tuned back, and their siege damage drastically dialled down. They are supposed to be a nuanced mico-managed unit good at wiping out melee forces, not base wiping cheap siege engines, nor god level army destroyers.
I just faced with this kind of game yesterday. and I totally 100% obsoletely agree with 15:42 discussion. Maybe Im still noob in this game but 40 50 fire lancers just run through all my landmarks whitin 20s and win the 30 40mins game was not an easy feeling haha. I like 1v1 game with more macro and stuffs. But playing with friends need to deal with another type of gameplay
yeah I haven't played aoe4 hardly at all because I prefer team games, and fire lancers completely ruin the fun... no point playing
Yes they are
Half of the Chinese player I met just spamming fire lancers. It is sick as the Springald before nerfed.
Tower elephant vs Fire Lancer ?
That is sick :D I am gona try it. Problem is that games usualy do not last long enough to abuse it. and i guess if you face mix army with siege behind them firelancers are gona die realy fast. and because you need both landmarks for III age its extremly expensive.
Here are some tips and necessary things to do not only against firelancers but general rules of thumb as well.
1. Stone wall
always stone wall chocks i.g confluence, mingolian height. stone wall between player bases at least one layer.
2. hide eco/tech landmarks
build them in corners, in the safest player base (imperial palace, abbey of trinity, guild hall, king’s palace, HRE’s big church, guardians court)
3.apply pressure, it cost them huge pop cap to landmark snipe, get ur army together and push with canons.
4. micro to win fights against it
peal off if u using cav, mix in spear if u using infantry
Let me know how can I build stone walls with Rus or catch up fire lancers with spearmen because Rus doesn't have any other counter :D
On the other hand, I have to hold ~50 spearmen near my town in the case of a backdoor and with the other ~50, I won't be able to attack. Even 100% vision won't be helpful ^^
In the 1v1 I have a stronger early game but if it won't work it is GG and I should surrender because the late game is impossible. That is something not ok with that.
Even worse is with team games. It is really hard to communicate with teammates and coordinate attacks or the economy is even harder, on another level. It is also hard to rush China as Rus early game because other teammates come fast to help.
There is no discussion that fire lancers need nerfs.
OP siege
OP cost/possibilities
OP aoe dmg
@@michal4736 dude stop being salty, the chinese are behind in dark,feudal and castle age, and you're asking for nerfs?. i main chinese and in 1v1 is really Hard to able to mass them and imposible if your opponent is not giving you a break. honestly ppl asking for nerfs just because their loosing 4v4 with strangers.
@@vmox7453 bro most of aoe4 is probably played in team games with strangers, so how smart is it to just ignore team games being fun? No one cares about your ladder rank in 1v1, most people haven't even heard of this game... braindead units that ruin team games won't help that
@@vmox7453 I am salty? XD I gave some arguments for the entire game, 1v1 and team vs team but you're mad at me because you have problems only in 1v1. You don't care about other game parts.
Of course, it is easier to counter China in 1v1 only because of better map control and late-game power. But still, it is wrong that even a late-game unit can crash any counter.
Oh, and I am sorry but that game isn't 1v1 only but also team vs team what is more popular because more casual players prefer this mode. Casual players can give this game life so developers can't ignore this and have to balance the game for everyone.
are they nerfed now?
If you halved the fire lancers HP they would retain most of their characteristics as explosive, high threat units. But they would also be countered better by the units they should be. The unit needs to feel like a baneling for it to work as a fast moving, high damage, anti-ground, anti-siege, anti-building unit. If it's not a kamikaze type unit, then you will have to remove its damage against either infantry, siege or buildings.
And perhaps if upgrades like Court Architects reduce incoming damage by a flat amount, that would help too..
Oh no people are catching on
I main China and France. Id like to see them changed into a cycle charging, open field battle and raiding unit. Remove or nerf their damage against buildings. Nerf their charge a little cos its a bit strong. But I like the open field army battles where I cycle charge different waves of firelancers, its pretty fun gameplay.
Also, nerf their cost pls. My favourite strat is to build a spirit way out in the middle of nowhere, spam stables near it and get them super cheap.
Please do ram rush from 3 Abassid players next. 3 Abassid vs 3 Chinese players. Right from get go, focus on ram wrecking 1 guy, and then the next. It will be 3 on 1. No amount of fire lancers can save that game.
i love dying in 30 seconds as Abbasid in team games to this.
When I heard the background music from The Last of Us 2 at 18:00, I strated having PTSD...
Grenadiers and Clock Tower please xD
Really liked how you explained the FL rush at the end and how stupid the backseating redditor suggestions to stopping it are like "just build more walls lol", not to mention I'm happy you mentioned the fun factor being lost when you play against it. Staggered AoE charge damage and a reduction to their torch damage sound pretty good to be honest, keeping them raiders and good against range and siege is important but as of now they're too lame to face against. Personally, from when I have done it once or twice on release, the FL rush requires no skill and as a landmark victory it just feels cheap and hollow.
Spread your spearmans, spears counters their charge, that's all
Fire lancers, approach
HRE: I fear no man. but that thing... it scares me
P.S. i think HRE should have a unique unit for the spear line instead of the + 3 melee armor that is useful only vs other spearmen
Landsknechts, circa 1498.
@@AgeofNoob we need Pike variant of Landsknechts
The current state of the game is that, if you play HRE and the opponents playing Chinese lose against you, they somehow need to play that game much much worse than you.
@@forexjammer yeah that's what i was thinking about
Please do Palace Guards, I don't understand their purpose. They have less armor than men at arms. What's the point of building them?
Unsure, maybe the extra HP offsets the armor deficit. Need testing to see if they can stand up fairly against other generic or HRE MAA
Age of noob: explain about how broken FL is
Me: think about how gun? at the tip of the spear work
I've seen the fire lancer sniping..... Gasp
So its a horseman with a small gold cost instead of extra food... that is great vs siege and buildings and beats everything except light cav hard counters and mangadai. To add to that they invalidate almost all other units in the game.
Who the fuck thought this was a good idea?
8:12 I think that pathfinding might have impacted the resoults badly
insanely overpowered unit
idk how it is for others but i prefer lance-nesht over lands kinnecht
the k in knecht is the same as in knife or knight, to me it is intuitive to drop it in modern english
Intuitive yes, but still wrong. The k isn’t silent in German.
Lesss gooo elephants
I wanna see fire rams for china
Having splash dmg, high mobility, and destroying buildings shouldn’t be 3 things 1 unit has all 3.
yep, gotta take off the bonus against buildings and keep them fragile, like hellions in starcraft
I think you should factor the cost of the yuan dynasty in to the fire lancer cost. It's 1800 resources + build time just to unlock them. That's a lot in the castle age.
But yeah the AOE is a bit much.
Yup with Yuan cost included it should be 37 spearmen instead of 15, and 12 knights instead of 5. Him ignoring this makes the entire unit analysis very misleading unfortunately.
When ever I play agaisnt Chinese I never let them get to the late game so I never had this problem
Good luck in 3v3 or 4v4
chinese players always bring up that they have to build extra landmarks to unlock them, but extra landmarks will be a benefit if they get rebalanced at some point and you can have 6 powerbuildings with unique abilites. Chinese is just extremly strong and it is clear that the developers put a lot of effort into them, while neglecting some faction(English,HRE). FIrelancers are broken so are chinese bombards and anything out of the clockwork tower really. Chinese eco is also extremly strong. Best faction with Mongols easily.
If you make the changes you suggested to Fire Lancers at the end of the video, what would be their purpose in army comp, and what reason would anyone have to invest 1,200 food and 600 gold in unlocking them?
Yup that's the point. Why make them then? Why not just go for knights/lancers instead then? Lol... Wasted so much resource to get Yuan Dynasty to get a trash unit unlocked?
I think they need to get nerf but maybe from cost to make them, not others. Fire Lancers are just too cheap to trade with enemies.
Yuan isn't worthless without the unique unit, so you can hardly count the entire second landmarks costs towards the fire lancers. On the other hand, implementing all suggested 4 changes would be overkill, I think. +50% costs already effectively nerfs their fire damage, charge damage, survivability. That alone means they're much worse against knights. They'll deal as much torch damage against buildings as scouts, with fewer combined hp and lower base speed. It gets automatically worse in Imperial Age. Scouts can already keep up in dmg against siege, with that one change to 180 res scouts would greatly surpass them. Which is ok, as scouts cannot deal with anything else while the fire lancer can - but it means there's no reason to increase the cost AND lower their torch damage.
@@Muenni You are suppose to combine it with the imperial palace and raid with them. They aren't suppose to make up your entire army composition. They are suppose to pick at villager lines and kill small static defense like outposts.
@@NemicoSurami They were obviously designed to burn down buildings and siege as well, not just pick off villagers. Why else would they get the special torch damage no other unit gets? If they intended them to be able to deal with outposts, ranged armour would've worked better than triple torch damage. I can't really imagine the aoe damage to be intended solely for picking off villagers in the late game either, tbh. What makes you say that this is their intended (and only) use?
So the only unit to compete with the fire lancer is the war elephant, if only Delhi wasn't so broken
Well, Camels do good as well. Elephants cannot be recommended because the Fire Lancers will never take that fight. Hence, defensively you should go Spearman, and offensively Knights in low numbers, or Camels/Mangudai.
@@AgeofNoob ya war elephants in team games are painfully bad, they cannot defend anything since they're so damn slow and the maps are so gigantic...
This looks like what huns should have, if they would be in Age 4.
I quit the game already due to a small group of firelancers, horsemen, scouts, etc. being able to take out 3 LMs in under 5 seconds if your army is away, say defending an ally or something. There's not even enough time to put up stone walls on most maps if the build is done correctly. I hate it even when my allies do it because I know we didn't deserve the win, and it takes almost no skill at all to pull off. I should be able to have my army at an allies base not to far away to help defend for a bit without worrying about losing in 5 seconds to a cheap horse rush that circumvents my army.
I haven't quit... but you're absolutely right.
It takes zero skill. A couple days ago I tried playing Chinese for the first time. I sucked. No idea how to do a proper build. Didn't really understand how to use the imperial official mechanic... but still I managed to mass a bunch of fire lancers and take out my opponents' landmarks in a team game. It's so stupid.
In noob games, FL does look OP. However, FL is pretty much the first unit of China that end the game, and it needs 2 of the third age landmarks before you can even make them. They perform extremely bad in maps that have narrow choke points, which are generally the maps you want to play China. Opponents can easily wall themselves in those maps and as a Chinese player, the only option will be clock tower bombards. In open maps, it is pretty hard to keep alive as China before you can even make FLs. The opponents can generally pressure you so much in early game so that when you get your third age FLs masses, they already have forth age armies with decent upgrade. As a main China player, I can tell you that in 1vs1 games, I have way lower winning rate in the games that I decided to mass FLs than to drag it a little more for bombards.
yes they are really difficult to play (and guys, team game is another world, fire lancer are as annoying as knight its just called run by the stratzgy itself its annoying)