@derykhenderson5187There were atleast 6 different versions of super duper marines including space marines themselves to thunder warriors. This isn’t even including the shit chaos gets up to. I don’t know why people act like Primaris are some completely different thing like grey knights or Custodes are.
Rescaled Chaos Space Marines are still Firstborn despite having more or less the same proportions as Primaris, so yeah, I agree that Primaris should have just been a new armor mark for Firstborn.
There is also the problem that Primaris are an entirely new thing, when they could have just as well done a range refresh like they did the Chaos Space marines after 8th Ed. But the way Primaris was introduced just was a slap in the face for every lore enthusiast and the people worried that GW just made them lose cash on models that would be Legend'd out of playability. And the new Guardsmen make the whole scale argument void as well since they're barely half a head smaller than Primaris I'm also reminded of the Aspect Marine Argument, pretty much every new Primaris Infantry unit is some one note Kit, bland unadorned Intercessors with a different flavor of GUN, that's even less imaginative than the Aspect Warriors of the Eldar that have major lore stuff behind every specialist unit, that are also visually distinct. Missing that face grill is also very jaring.
its even worse when they release a whole kit/unit that something a single tactical squad/devastator squad could do. I found running tac squads after the 2W update along with a redemptor to be much more appealing and flexible in an ever changing game let alone tournament play where you carry the same army against other players/factions making a general all rounder army, difficult to build, hard to control, costly both in points and IRL money. not even going to mention how slow and jarring the release is since when a new unit drops the rules from that new unit + a codex update make it so that its necessary to include i.e plasma being the only infantry anti tank until 9th ed, making phobos and haft baked units rather than a complete units like a unit than wouldn't get superseded in its role when the next model drop comes.
Honestly, I don't think all of the criticism was just old fans whining about models. GW dropped the ball HARD with their lore. If Primaris marines were just upscaled Firstborn marines, or if Cawl had made a new mark of space marine armor, or even if they made Primaris marines a thing but the only way to make them is with new aspirants or crossing the rubricon, the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad. The thing people were concerned about was the whole "Cawl has tens of thousands of space marines from the Heresy era and they're all perfect and better than everyone else and their gene flaws are gone and they can't fall to chaos and they saved the Imperium!" It was so poorly done. Blood Angels were now red Ultramarines, Space Wolves were grey Ultramarines, Dark Angels were green Ultramarines. People watched the individual identity of their favorite factions get fucking obliterated by a wrecking ball and had a new identity shoved in their face just because "We decided this identity is more brand friendly so you have to like it." The natural reaction to that is to become contrarian and say "Fuck you, the old models look worse but at least they're something I can like."
Always this. No matter how much I try to like some primaris designs, something still feels terribly off about them as an army and puts me off seriously collecting them. Firstborn chapters used to have 10,000 years to pick from and grow with their own customs and armour marks - and now pretty much all space marine homebrews are forcibly rooted in this 42k "cawl gifted you with some new seed by sending random custodes across the galaxy to find your little chapter" storyline. There's absolutely no getting around it without downgrading to older, unsupported models, and it makes the universe feel small.
Hyperbole and nostalgia really, the lore has addressed the upside and downside of primaris marines and how the og's are still kicking ass. It's not like the tactical marine looked different for each chapter and GW are still releasing updated chapter specific models.
@@dylanwagstaff2505 I'm talking about at launch. There was no "firstborn are still more experienced and better" back then. It was very much "primaris are the bestest thingz evar!!!!" As for models, at launch, all of the new primaris models were very clearly Ultramarines. Every lieutenant had a laurel, every captain had a frilled cape, every sword was a gladius, most of the boxes even came with Ultramarine transfers. Compared to what was available for firstborn kits, all of the character models for primaris were laughably ill fitting for half of the first founding chapters' aesthetics.
Its honestly a legitimate complaint when if you essentially have someone turn up to game day with some stuff that they pulled out of their arse because 'reasons' and plonked it down on the table going "well its time to play kids!" Now if they'd spent some time working up to it, introducing some at least 'plausible' reasons that this going whipped out and waved around in front of everyone without any shame. People might have taken it a bit better because at the launch of them, it was about as elegant and well done as two monkeys trying to fuck a football while asking you to pay to watch. Hence you get exactly two types of people The ones who nope out of there and don't need to see it in their lives and the ones that are fully prepared to plonk down 500 bucks to get front row seats at the football fucking. 40k desperately needs something new and interesting to it, but oh boy, it needs to be done well before anyone will want it.
@@krissteel4074 Yup, any sort of decent lead up would have worked. Introduce Cawl earlier, have a campaign over a sytem with an STC for the new tacticus armour. But no, blatant profit over fans. Baffling to see this overlooked.
My biggest problem was how they basically tried to turn everything into various colours of ultramarines. Primaris worked fine for ultras, fists etc right out of the gate but the really unique chapters like space wolves and blood angels lost so so much of their unique identity and flavour... Also, the early primaris looked too clean and high tech, they looked like Tau. They have definitely got better and the black templar range refresh has given me a lot of hope as they are undeniably a big upgrade
@@sirdragon6860 THIS; I'm a Lamenter Player and lemme tell you; for making my first born company the death company set is a fucking godsent! Its cheap, has a LOT of BA decore and has a lot of nice bits! Meanwhile the Primaris counterpart is literally 5 intersessors with the Primaris BA upgrade pack attached to it.
Well anything New that looks even remotely "clean" gets called Tau. Freaking Craftworld Eldar are super clean and High Tech but don't get accused of looking too much like Tau.
@@DemonicEngineer its called bullshit opinion. people expect brand new rolled out space marines to already come covered in battle scars, bolter holes and honorific text glued all over their armor straight out of the forge world.
Hate Primaris because they're a greedy cashgrab to get marine players to buy an entire new army with a halfassed handwave lore justification. They could have just been an update to marine kits as a new armour mark and no one would have minded
o be fair im fine with a 'separate" batch of marines but they made the primaries soo good that the first born does even need to be around anymore other than they have better battle experiences the primaries is just better.
My biggest problem with Primaris is: Firstborns were very versatile tactically. With Primaris, GW is simply printing one of each type to fulfill what firstborn marines could do. And it took FOREVER for firstborns to get updated so they were cost effective. Finally, the biggest nail in the coffin - the release of Primaris coincided with them making Scouts Elite choices instead of troop choices. Most of my scouts are now sitting in a box since they are effectively worthless.
I think a large part of the annoyance is that primaris both in lore and irl felt less like a new generation and more a replacement, like as if instead of a different flavor of coke that occasionally goes back to the older flavors, they give you a sprite, which in all fairness alot of people prefer, but it a whole different thing. It doesn't help that it led to alot of "will they won't they" when it comes to older kits, cause it isn't as gratifying to play with two kits of completely different qualities so alot of us who like things like devstators have to wait and see or wonder if they were already replaced. The options in that case is either play a different faction or play Horus Heresey where you don't get the cool primaris stuff. It feels less like a evolution and more like they're kicking out the older workers who have been there for years with new spunky guys who aren't bad by any means, but the fact that there is still a air of who else from the old guard is going to get kicked and whose going to get promoted is still there.
As a noob I wonder if it would have been possible and preferable to just make these new updated miniatures without having any new lore for them? Like they were only the normal Space Marines but in an updated product. Was there really a need to point out their differences?
@@Ewil.Bluetooth to be fair im fine with a 'separate" batch of marines but they made the primaries soo good that the first born does even need to be around anymore other than they have better battle experiences the primaries is just better.
@@jmgonzales7701 I would have preferred if it was only an update of the power armor instead. Because it's not ok to make the Emperors Angels obsolete imo.
For me the problem was more that it just felt so contrived. It was less about old being good new bad but more that "hey heres just a guy who figured it out, we invented him 2 weeks ago, oh and he can do it better, in less time and also with traitors, they never corrupt by the way, also we made the bolter but better, and we made 6 versions of it with their own statlines". Admittedly some of those are somewhat fixed but the bad smell lingers. Its also about how each of these guys in their kits have a seperate list entry where a good half of them could be "ye you can equip these with flamers instead", sure sell them with the unique name but god please cut down how many seperate rules entries are needed for a unit with 0 options, you should just make them the options.
The main problem was introducing them as something different. Had they just said, “these are the new sculpts, they’re bigger now” nobody would have cared.
Strictly from a lore perspective, the reason that I find the 40k universe compelling is that is it a vision of the future in which technology - at least for humanity - is mostly ancient and stagnant. I’m fascinated by the idea of relic weapons, armour, and vehicles and ships that have been in service for centuries or even millennia, constantly being cobbled back together into working order from spare parts because the Imperium has forgotten more about technology than it currently knows. Adding to this rich texture are the ancient traditions and flaws (both physical and mental) of the Legions. The Primaris threaten to bulldoze all this glorious rough, gritty, lived-in atmosphere with their slick and homogenized newness. There’s no better example of how the Primaris undermine what makes 40k unique than Redemptor Dreadnoughts: in lore, the advanced systems of these Primaris Dreadnoughts burn through the lifeforces of the severely injured marines who pilot them, resulting in the frequent replacement of the marines and their sarcophagi. If GW does away with Firstborn marines, this means the end of what was previously the defining characteristic of Dreadnoughts, that they are venerable ancients.
To be fair even the original Astartes were kinda a rush job . The primarus are just what the space marines were originally intended to be. If a lady named Astartes can make space marines why not an actual smart guy Space marine power armor got better so why not the marines.
"The Primaris threaten to bulldoze all that is-" Lmao lemme stop you right there dweeb. If you're losing your shit over the most marginal of technological advancements then you should've abandoned the hobby years ago, bc Space Marines get a new mark of Power Armor every couple of years and have gotten this way before the Primaris were a thing.
I don’t think the age of a dreadnought pilot was ever *the* defining characteristic. There are plenty of beings way older than them. The defining characteristic of a dreadnought is “severely wounded space marine piloting a machine because service ends at death, and severe wounds ain’t death.”
My biggest problem with primaris is that almost all primaris units on the tabletop are just variations of already existing firstborn units who, like you said, were blatantly better than their og counterparts to boost their sales. The Repulsor is a Landraider. ATV-Attack Bike. Outrider-Bike Squad. Aggressor-Centurion Assault. Eradicator-Centurion Devastator. Impulsor-Razorback. All of the random landspeeders. A primaris version of every single character including 40000 lieutenants. The list goes on and on. My biggest problem with this is that once primaris became better balanced with firstborn units it leaves an incredible amount of bloat for their codex, where they just have a bunch of units that all kind of do the same things but slightly differently. Maybe that's a good thing because it allows for you to build your army however you wish, while giving you new options that don't make your old units obsolete. But I prefer simplicity whenever possible. Anyway, cheers.
Small story. I was introduced to Warhammer 40k back in high school because of the series Emperor text-to-speech (specifically the clip of everyone killing each other because of heresy). I watch through the series, get a bit of lore watching it and become interested. Go search up more about it online and learn Cadia's fallen, Guilliman's returned, and the Marines got an upgrade. I had more of a problem with Guilliman and Cadia than the new Marines (not that I had anything to stand on because I would've considered my self pretty amateur and casual at the time I just watched the web-series at that point and was worrying over nothing compared to a long-time fan). Small edit for clarity: I'm fine with the story advancing now.
The story advancing makes the universe feel tiny by focusing on the "big events" that somehow constantly involve Ultramarines. GW should have focused on more Badab War type stories WITHIN the 10,000 years since the Heresy. There was no need to focus on a select few characters... unless you're trying to appeal to the marvel demographic.
TTS is weird because I'm pretty sure they started that series like right before 8th edition and the 40k ending it's decades of plot stagnation and somehow managed to predict the future with it's whole storyline about the primarchs coming back
I think the reason people hate Primaris Marines is because the firstborn marines were the things that the franchise as it is today was built upon, and when Primaris was introduced and replaced the old marines in the dark imperium box people were definitely not too stoked about losing that link to their past still being made on the scale it once was. In short People don’t like change.
@@amishrambo4096 Agreed. If it went like this. Guilliman wakes up and says, Hey there marines, i see your armour is getting a bit shoddy. I had these blueprints in The making and it seems they were forgotten along with me going into a coma.
And then you have guys like me who saw the old ones decades ago thought they looked ridiculous forgot about 40k entirely, then saw primaris, thought they looked cool and got into 40k off a box of intercessors.
Stole this from Reddit: Imagine DC Comics sitting around and trying to decide how to boost comic sales over the next few years. "I know," a writer says, "Let's make Bigger Batman." The market analyst shuffles through some data and says "There may actually be consumer interest in making Batman bigger. The story line does reference him being a peak physical specimen, but he's always drawn the same size as the other male characters. I think the fans would react well to a larger Batman." "No," says the writer. "I don't mean that we should just draw Batman bigger. That would be stupid and I wouldn't be creating anything new. Let's make Bigger Batman, a totally new character." "Um," says the analyst, but the the writer presses hard for what he is calling his creative contribution to the legacy of comics and the director likes the projection for how new characters boost sales so in the next series, they introduce Bigger Batman. It turns out that Bruce Wayne has a brother. Chad Wayne is bigger and stronger and faster and better looking than Bruce. He was separated at birth through a hospital mix up and his adopted parents were killed in a mugging gone wrong in a way that was just like Bruce's story but more tragic. He took over the adopted family's business empire that was just like Bruce's but bigger and now he has come to Gotham in its hour of need to do Bruce's job but better. He has the Bigger Batmobile and Bigger Batarangs and pretty soon he has the Bigger Batsignal. It's actually hard to tell the Batsignal from the Bigger Batsignal if they aren't both on together since they are exactly the same except in proportion, but the bigger engine in the Bigger Batmobile gets Bigger Batman to the scene first unless he's solving a bigger crime somewhere else in which case people look mildly disappointed when they realize that it's just Batman that has arrived and often choose to wait for his brother. "So, thanks Batman. We really appreciate you showing up to save us from this bank robbery, but we'll be fine, really, and Bigger Batman should be along at any minute." Pretty soon, Bruce Wayne stops putting on the Batsuit at all which is just as well because the Batsignal (now known as the Little Batsignal) has been put in storage. Bruce develops a drinking problem and eventually people in Gotham forget that Little Batman was ever a thing. In the story the writer has created, all of this makes perfect sense. Commissioner Gordon likes Bigger Batman because he's better at solving crime. The citizens of Gotham like Bigger Batman because he makes them safer. Vicki Vale likes Bigger Batman because he's better looking and has a bigger dick. As a comic fan, I fucking hate Bigger Batman, and not for any kind of internal inconsistency with the story. I hate Bigger Batman because with a few words- with nothing more than a few exclamation points, really- the writer has made a beloved character with decades of rich backstory into the smaller and less impressive version of itself. Bigger Batman doesn't add anything positive to the story unless you are actually going for satire, but he does fuck up the existing character of Batman. That's why I hate the Primaris marines.
The old heroic scale was better for identifying game pieces at the distances you'd be away from them when playing. True scale is better for promotional images on a screen. Also have you seen the newer Sisters of Battle and Guard models next to Primaris? Scale creep is already making 'true scale' incorrect. Kasarkin in particular are huge.
Yeah, half of his point are kinda shit. .Scale kreep has already doomed truescale. .No im not going to cut GW slac becuse they made 40k, that logic is kapitalist BS .GW could have "refreshed" the space marines by just true scaling first born. And so on and so on
Imagine Gulliman watching his brothers scream and gnash and throw themselves to the warp as their legions split themsleves into ineffectual splinters and fall to infighting and chaos and then actually having the audacity to to pull Cawl to the side and tell him "aight im taking a nap at the capitol of Imperium 2, make sure to have my nine secret full strength legions of Space Marine 2s ready when I get up" Also imagine knowing part of the cornerstone of your lore is that there is nothing new, that even something like a "regular" bolter has centuries of owners recorded like an old library book, that every "regular" suit of armor is an ancient and nearly irreplacable loss, and this chucklefriend comes out of nowhere with millions of suits of brand new marine armor, terminator armor, flying tanks and new weapons and suddenly every chapter is dumping their old relics in the bin for the new stuff
Well after thinking about it for a bit here's my thoughts. I think Primaris undermine one of the core themes of 40k, the idea of stagnation. The Imperium is supposed to be a dying empire that's relying on tech from ten thousand years ago with little to no advancement on anything. Cawl (basically created to justify the Primaris from a lore pov) created a whole new kind of space marine, and updated their entire armory and vehicle line. They also are made with the idea of being adaptable to several threats. This means that the idea that the Imperium is a dying empire kind of dumb since they can advance on the tech level of their most elite troops they can deploy in numbers. It makes it so that the Tau or Eldar's main advantage in tech moot since the Imperium can invent stuff now without causing a civil war. I also find the story of how Cawl adapted the geneseed to remove all the flaws and make it harder to corrupt by chaos annoying. On a model perspective it makes it so that initally it felt very generic with primaris, sure likely a lot of it will return and some already have but it'll likely take some time. I also find it weird that some guy who didn't exist in the setting could do this but someone like Fabius Bile who would be a lot more easily set up in the lore to make something like the Primaris never did. Maybe that's how they create CSM Primaris without having traitor Primaris. From a model perspective I have the issue that it makes it so that the Marine bloat of releases is even worse becuase GW is basically gonna create a Primaris version of every SM unit that will be better than the Firstborn version to increase sales, while some ranges still use models that were made two decades ago. Also this might be a personal thing but I find the Primaris naming system annoying because with Firstborn models the type of marine was easily put in a name. But with a name like "Incursor" "Intercessor" "Aggressor" means I have to look at the model and then the name again to understand what the unit does. Which is pretty obviously for copyright reasons. I have issues with it from a lore and hobby point of view and putting this together it makes it feel like GW wants to overhaul the SM line to sell more models and force SM players to change out their old model lines overtime. Considering the rules that I've seen for Firstborn models in 10th and how restricted they are makes me feel like they're gonna try to phase them out completely by 11th-12th ed.
Umitigated stagnation isn't very stagnating. It's the interplay of progress and regression that makes something truely feel like it is stuck in place because otherwise there is no contrast. What the primaris represent is simply a new era of stagnation.
@@amanofnoreputation2164 No it isn't. It was a unique improvement by a tech priest and not the Emperor. Looking past the mere heresy of mettling like that in the Space Marine geneseed, Cawl committed heresy of his own order by creating something new without a STC. Space Marines were the best of the best, we didn't need a one up. This was a trash idea to sell new models for money, that's it.
@@amanofnoreputation2164 Usually in 40k when new things are made they are usually either a direct downgrade put into production because the knowledge to make the superior older version was just lost. Or its weird wacky sidegrades with crippling downsides or very niche applications. Thats now the setting SHOULD advance into new eras of stagnation, but with primaris they are just, better, there is no downside, no price to pay, no fault to overcome, they are just, better. Primaris lacks any identity at all because their entire premise is being "better" which isnt interesting at all because anyone can just say "make robot man bigger!", meanwhile it takes some writing skill to properly sell how, for example Terminators are baddass because they aren't just a guy in biggerer armour, that armour is an irreplaceable relic that has been diligently maintained for millenia, most chapters only have a few dozen left so getting to wear one is an unfathomably high responsibility and one of the highest honours of the chapter. Compare that to gravis armour, which are just mass manufactured heavy versions of normal space marine armour, its a little slower but more durable, oh okay cool, that sucks, thats not interesting in the slightest.
8:20 you dont really get it do you. the black templars are ignorant they would never accept blasphemy as space marines were perfect because the emperor made them. sure some fans are upset of having to buy the whole army. but the problem is primaris marines would never go good with dark angels, blood angels, and especially black templars the most.
My issue with primaris is you end up paying more for less options it limits creativity in options with a tactical squad you can run a multi melta a combi melta and a melta gun but with the intercessors your options are what bolters do you want for the squad
Exactly! That’s my problem with all of these silly heavy support marines that could all be made obsolete if primaris just had a version of devastator squads
I get why people like Primaris, as I currently have a friend whose building an army exclusively out of Primaris Marines and I will admit that some of the Primaris kits do look really cool(like the Bladeguard and Phobos infiltrators). If people like Primaris and want to build Primaris armies exclusively, then they should absolutely go for it. HOWEVER, as someone who first got into the franchise through watching TH-cam videos back in 2015, up until this point I’ve always felt like the Primaris have never been quite as iconic as their firstborn brethren. Sure, they’re the poster boys now, but a lot of the best memes/games that helped me get into the franchise to begin with had firstborn marines exclusively. Granted, I’m not too sure how long that’s gonna last with Space Marine 2 on the horizon, but still. This, alongside me just simply preferring the looks of the MKVII and MKVI armor in general, led me to start my army as a primarily firstborn force. However, the firstborn in 40k face a very unique problem in the sense that they’re a dying breed, both on tabletop and in the lore, which is not a good feeling(albeit being suitably grimdark). But because I’m a stubborn prick who does what he wants, I don’t give a shit. As long as I can get ahold of some firstborn models, or a firstborn conversion kit, or even a few 3rd party bits if necessary to field my awkwardly scaled boys, then I’m happy. If my boys don’t have the spotlight no more, that’s fine, I was homebrewing my army’s lore anyway. I just don’t want them to disappear from the setting they helped to popularize and for the Primaris to become iconic enough to truly succeed them in the spotlight. Ok, possibly unhinged rant over.
I have a little space marine force and honestly when you swap the primaris with firstborn helmets you will feel home. Just add some purity seals maybe some oldschool shoulder pads and u are good
I think its kinda telling that the first major 40k release to feature Primaris is SM2, released 7 years after the introduction of primaris. Like jeez lol. And we did just get Boltgun, which features Firstborn, not primaris.
For me, I’m personally upset with how “corporate” their inception seemed. Everything for their lore to their aesthetics just screams: ‘Look! Newer better space marines for you to buy! I bet the young people will love these!’ So not a fan, but obviously a company’s gotta make money, right?
They just look fucking horrible. They’re really trying to retcon those distinct, badass designs and playing it off as “firstborns” while effectively reshaping their image into gothic buzz lightyears. Truly disgusting. I expect anyone into the hobby to stop buying official minis and 3d print truescale as much as possible. Don’t even get me started on those Tyranid redesigns
Exactly! For me it felt like a case of "break glass in case of emergency" for GamesWorkshop. Like the execs were thinking: "We need more money, break the glass!" And the glass was "You people like Space Marines, right? Like... a lot, right? Well... here are Space Marines that are even MORE Space Mariney than the ones you already know and love!" For me it was basically a jumping the shark moment.
They could have just released primaris marines as just an upgrade to the old marines. Give everyone some new organs and armor and call it a day. Would have been awesome. No one would have been mad. Instead they went for the flashy "Its a whole new kind of marine" and they teased all this in-universe tension about it that all went nowhere anyway. They should have just been a model update.
Having all the most insanely intolerant and defiantly independent chapters like Black Templars and Red Scorpions just instantly roll over and adapt primaris, like, what? What the actual fuck? If they absolutely had to introduce these market research brand recognition optimization marines to the setting, at least dont pretend there wouldn't be holdouts and make them something of a sidegrade. Like there is actually no fucking shot the Red Scorpions who barelly even lets inquisitorial inspectors into their secret hideout to check their geneseed integrity would just welcome in a bunch of new fancy upgrade marines that are totally better and deff not made using any kind of heretical means.
The more I think about it, the more I realise that I just hate Mark 10 armour more than anything else. If they had just upscaled Mark 7, maybe I'd have tolerated the idea of primaris more. I absolutely love that armour and how iconic it is.
Yeah, a big part is the Aesthetic of Primaris just....doesn't fit SpaceMarines most of the time. There's some Kits that look great(most of the HQs, Phobos Armoured Units&Bladeguard are fine), but the overwhelming majority of Primaris Models just....don't feel like SpaceMarines. I don't like all the funky Primaris versions of the Devastator Squad. The names are odd but fine, but the Aesthetic and the fact they are ALL separate Kits&Units is unnecessary, there's things far more deserving of complete refreshes and some Factions that have been around for years and are STILL missing quite a few Kits&Units. I hate how bland&samey Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, Heavy Intercessors, Aggressors and all the E-Devastators look. I don't like the look of the Redemptor Chassis, period. They tried&failed to combine and replace the Contemptor&Castraferrum Pattern Dreadnoughts. And lastly....holy shit the Hover Vehicles except for the Astreus do NOT belong in the SpaceMarine Model Range...especially the Heavy Stubbers. There's literally over half a dozen Weapon Types they could've chosen instead of a damn Heavy Machine Gun. Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter, Auto Cannon, Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolt Cannon, Multi-Laser, Volkite Culverins and probably a few more things capable of doing the same things as a Heavy Stubber that fit SpaceMarines better. Aesthetically it looks weird, and Lore-wise it makes no fucking sense and is just lazy&inefficient.
For me it's the helmet that's the biggest problem, it's just so painfully generic looking. And I know it's based on the mk IV armor, it still isn't as interesting as mk VI or mk VII helmets, especially mk VII. The anger has turned into a slight annoyance, lol.
Exactly, to both replies. You could argue that Mark 10 is more detailed, but ultimately they sacrifice the space knight aesthetic for something more generically sci-fi with all the extra curves. Plus you just can't beat the angry mouth grill.
@@Fuzmonster59 scale is the overall size of the model in comparison to other models, proportion is the size of parts of the model in comparison to other parts on the model.
I prefer the better scaled models and better sculpts however, the customisation options with first born kits are unmatched, for example in tactical marines you get various armour marks, I want the new kits to have the ability to make each model an individual if needed, the blade guard kit is a great example of how at the end of building your kit you should have spares
@@guardsmen2945 yeah like the old kits had more "personality" I guess, the new primaris are great blank templates for customisation etc, but the upgrade sprues aren't enough, look at the space wolves and blood angel kits for first born they're so good they need equivalent for intercessors etc
I personally don’t particularly like the look of primaris, the firstborn literally define the look of the setting and for me it’s infinitely more appealing.
the only thing I have issue with the Primaris is that Cawl came out of nowhere and claimed he had somehow improved the emperors work on the gene seed and wasn't instantly killed for heresy.
That was my biggest take too. Who's this gigantic weirdo? Why is nobody challenging his secret army? Why did he stay quiet so long where it could have been info shared before?
Read „the great work“, he didn‘t came out of nowhere, primaris have been commissioned, and killing „him“ is not that easy since his consciousness is data and can be reuploaded plus he has basically a primarch as bodyguard with him at all time….
@@juzkful Ah yes, because *Primarchs* out-rank the Inquisition and Administratum... *totally.* Christ, dude. You know better than to half-ass an argument like that. Cawl would've been arrested and executed of heresy. ALL of the Primarchs *combined* wouldn't be able to stop that from happening. Primarchs cant just say "no" to the Administratum and Inquisition with something like geneseed tampering. You act like Guiliman is THE ruling figure of the Imperium, when in reality he's practially been given a desk in a closet to get him to fuck off but still feel useful. The Administratum would sanction the Inquisition to arrest and/or eliminate Cawl under *any* means necessary. Guiliman CANNOT openly rebel against them or else he'll split the Imperium with *another* civil war. And the Inquisition have killed things more complicated than an A.I. before. Cawl isn't *that* difficult a mark. E.M.P.s exist in this universe *too,* actually, so it might be as easy as *legally* raiding his workshop while he's there, popping an EMP the second before you put a few bullets in him, and then blowing up the facility anyway like they always do, and then walking away... with Guiliman having absolutely *ZERO* authority in the matter. Cawl ain't that hard to kill, and he ain't getting a free pass for his blatantly heretical experiments. He's a dead little toaster-fucker.
@@juzkful When has this kinda thing ever been a problem for the imperium? Like realistically his lab would get atomized by an ordinatus or he'd get butchered by the Minotaurs or something not just for the heresy, but the sheer fucking audacity to act like he can so forcefully assert himself as a player in imperial politics. Like nah, the high lords isnt having any of that lol.
Good Points I agree with a lot of them But the fact of the matter is GW could’ve just updated the models I mean look at old orc models they are ridiculous but they did not make a new orc breed just so they could improve the models. It would have been stupid to do that. Same with the Marines, if they were so desperate to create a change to justify the improvement they could have just said that it is a new Mark of armor and that is why it looks so different. But honestly I think it would have been better for them to just make the improvement and say nothing Honestly I am very disappointed with the primaris because I had assumed that their introduction was to lay the groundwork for a second heresy. I thought the return of Bobby was going to result in a split if the next Primark disagrees with him. I was assuming that Robert would try to change the imperium too much and that these Primeros would side with Robert. I thought this was some kind of genius plan because then you’ve got a reason to have the. Space marines versus space marines where chaos is not involved.
well some of this aged like milk. GW just announced they're discontinuing a bunch of the Firstborn kits, some are getting their rules removed from the main game and put into Warhammer Legends, which is fine if you're a casual player but if you go to any kind of organized event you're likely to not be allowed to use your older units. some of them have newer Primaris units they can be proxied as (Bikers = Outriders for example) but some of them don't have any analogues, like the Land Speeder Storm or Ironclad Dreadnaught. also yes, bringing in new people is what keeps hobbies alive but we also have to be careful about what sort of people we bring in, because trying too hard to get broad marketing appeal very often too heavily dilutes what originally made the IP great, I don't want to lose out on what made 40k 40k because GW wants to be Marvel (not saying GW currently wants to be Marvel but that a desire for mainstream appeal leads to that, just look at what's going on with WotC and Magic and D&D, they've pissed off their core customer base pretty bad)
Funny you should say they want to be marvel coz thats actually what they said in a previous investors report a few years back. They want to be a house hold brand like marvel.
If I were to reboot the absolute disaster that has been 40K from the Gathering Storm onwards, I would retcon all the utter dribble about Primaris being better, taller, stronger than Marines. People could keep their ugly stupid minis but Primaris would be Spartan III’s to the Firstborn’s Spartan II’s. The “improved” gene seed would simply have higher acceptance rates and allow for older candidates. Primaris would be soldiers to the Firstborns warriors. Their acceptance among the Firstborn would limited at best until subsequent generations could be forged properly by their own chapters. There would be far less of them as well. The amount that Kawl pulls out his ass in complete secrecy is outrageous.
badly implemented, rushed lore, I still hate most things about their lore, especially how they can suddenly make a Primaris with a few decades experience more combat capable than firstborn with literal centuries experience. I dont understand why Primaris officers exist at all... they should all be led by firstborn officers with centuries experience who have crossed the rubicon. I dont care at all about the miniature side, I dont play with that, I only care about lore, well written character and good stories... A few of the stories with real violent conflict between the primaris and firstborn are the only primaris stories I can somewhat tolerate, or where the Primaris are clearly the new kid having to prove themselves in a majority firstborn chapter..
This video aged like milk in July with the BA update. Mr. Bones you really need to come back to this video as everything you kind of spoke against ended up coming to fruition.
Personally, I liked how the Space marines units were before the introduction of the primaris: the tactical squads as the core, devastators for heavy weapons, assaults squads for closeups. Only a few more special units. Also, I liked the fluff for scouts being only partially marines. The primaris brought a lot of new units and broke that sense of a space marines being super flexible, and remind me more of how eldars use hyper specialized units. Also, I hate how primaris grav vehicules look, grav vehicules give the impresion of being fast but fragile, which has sense for a land Speeder or even some Tau or Eldar vehicules. But a grav Land Raider? And the primaris jump packs are so lame compared to FB. I dunno, it doesn't have the feeling. + Of course the fear of making all my minis useless
My problem with Primaris marines is how the mainline infantry are pretty much ripped off from Starcraft 2 Terran infantry: Intercessors are just more varied Marines Inceptors are better armored Reapers Aggressors are balanced Marauders/Firebats Feels like Blizzard suddenly got blocked out of their primary units too (And yes, I know that's more of Activision squandering Starcraft for Warcraft and CoD fantasies, than anything)
I feel like if primaris were just a special unit for an army. Like if they were essentially grey knight hell custodes level marines that could have a small spot in a legion due to how long they take to be made could’ve been cool.
Lore: Objectively bad lore that was so poorly implemented it makes an AC ducktaped to the top of a shitboxmobile look professional. Models: The definition of bland and boring. They suck the individuality out of the entire army. No customization. Random use of stubbers. Push to generic sci-fi. Completely messes up the marine feel, going from tactically flexible units to everything is specialized. Unit sizes dont make any sense anymore.
no people was upset by the schokingly heretical and badly written lore around some techpriest messign with genes and being better at it then the Emperor. Also people with large SM armies (rightly) feared their old minies would be undermined and eventually unplayeble (which is excatly what happened when they moved all the old marines into "legend")
Not all change is good. The Primaris Marines was a bad change, full stop. It wasn't a needed change or a warranted change. It especially hurts as a Blood Angel fan considering 90% of them were killed off. There is NO Blood Angel old guard left past a few individuals like Gabriel Seth. If you want to run Blood Angels, you are FORCED to run Primaris if you want to be accurate. I don't like the aesthetic of the Primaris, and I am entirely convinced G.W. will completely phase out the Firstborn... They've already done half of the work for it.
ah shiiiiit i had never thought of that. Ive not played table top since 3rd/4th edition but always love the books and the few good 40k games we have. But yea dam after the devistation of baal ya right. Gabe Seth was right, Generic Ultramarines with diff paint job. o0o0o0o
So the problem isn’t so much the lore, but the miniature enthusiast side? It’s always a balance of profit and appealing the consumer base, can’t please everyone
I don't mind the primaries I just wish they had it where instead of them automatically being on the battlefield at the same rank as veterans from 10,000 years ago and the chapters that received them were allowed to put them through the proper trials and properly trained them they would be magnificent
That and the imperium being somehow fullstrengh because of this deus-ex-machina event made the war of supervivencia lose his bling to me. Why bother loving the struggle when geedubs can pop out of nowere another thing like this for more pounds rushing the writers.
This implies veterans arent going through the rubicon operation, becoming primaris and still keeping their rank and title when... that is confirmed to be a thing that is ongoing. Most named characters demonstrate this. The battlesector 40k campaign also shows how 1st born vets are still helping most of the new primaris reinforcements who are all green behind the ears but still show they have the pride and defects of their shorter older brothers.
The primaris DID have to though, my brother there are multiple books like the dawn of fire series where the primaris had to prove themselves to their firstborn brothers to earn their respect and acceptance
The one thing I hate about primaris is that they are just squads of just dudes with only plasma or only bolters or only meltas, I wish there where just like primaris tactical squads and that type of stuff
Helmet design. If Games Workshop made a chapter/retconned bullshit reason to have the "Classic cathedral" type of look I think it'd be more widely accepted.
I like that the Primaris are True scale, and some of the kits are exceptionally good, such as the named character resculpts, the bladeguard and the new Black Templars. What I DON'T like about them are where they deviate from the designs of the original kits they're meant to be replacing. The Redemptor dread -while a really cool model- doesn't have the same design as the box naught. The Repulsor looks NOTHING like the Land Raider and should've been treaded instead of hovering. Everything in the Primaris line looks too modern for what are effectively meant to be warrior-monks and neo-medieval knights. Personally I very much dislike the default primaris helmets and preffer the grimace of the firstborn ones to such a degree that I replace them any chance I get. I'm a firm believer in the original boxy aesthetic for the marines and I won't accept any major deviations from it. Hell, I'm someone who joined in 8th just as the Primaris were released and I'm still against them!
Its so god damn funny that there is just an out of place rhino in space marine 2 cause the devs didnt wanna add the stupid hover pickup truck APC marines have now.
I'm more mad that they made them "primaris marines" in the lore instead of just a model update for the miniatures. To this day I still pretend the whole primaris lore doesn't even exist.
When the new marines appeared, all my excitement for the 40K setting died then and there. Period. I straight-up scrapped everything I was working on and moved to historical wargaming. I’d rather not play catch-up and collect something I can actually enjoy without a monopolist bossing me around.
I got into Warhammer after the Primaris drop, so I don’t have negative opinions about them. I’m a lore guy, and the lore consequences and drama and opinions that came from it is really interesting to me.
But didn't the consequences just feel a little limited? I'm not versed in all the lore but it always felt like the consequences of primaris were a little small. Yes some chapter's like the black templars killed some of their primaris but at the end of the day the chapters adopted them. We never saw chapters going the full nine yards, we never chapters outright disavowing them, or declaring them heterical and going rogue or rebelling as a result (as far as I'm aware that is) With the imperium spilt it would've been interesting if there consequences were a bit more impactful you know
That makes no sense. As a lore guy surely you can see how their sudden appearance out of nowhere was incredibly hamfisted and purely for sales... and as the other commenter pointed out, any possible positive for such a shoddy bit of lore was cut short without any sort of expansion. You have one "rogue" black templar chapter getting rid of their primaris buried in a paragraph of a white dwarf somewhere. That's about it.
@@TEPMARMY I totally agree that their impact should’ve been a bigger in the setting as a whole. I would hope that they fill that in as new lore gets published.
@@clinch4402 Oh yeah, I totally see how it was majorly (and probably only) financial decision. What I’m talking about is that it’s fun to see everyone else in the setting, the ones who care anyway, react to them and give their opinions about them. Both on the loyalist and traitor sides. And as I just pointed out for the previous commenter, I hope that their impact on the setting gets fleshed out more in the near future.
While the true scale aspect is appreciated and some of the models are quite nice, my beef with the Primaris is their background. They came out of nowhere with a distinct mary-sue vibe, and were accepted with minimal fuss by an Imperium that should have seen their presence as heresy of the highest order. And to top it off, they've brought an onslaught of new units that don't seem to fit into the Index Astartes-inspired chapter organisation (eg. 10x companies, each with specific complements of Tac, Ass and Dev squads), which was one of my favourite things about the Space Marines. Basically the models are nice, but it wasn't worth GW shitting all over the background to introduce them.
I used to like Primaris for the possible Roboute Heresy that was brewing, Firstborn being phased and all. Then the Rubicon was revealed, meaning everyone gets to be a Primaris and dont give me that shit about high mortality rates on the procedure. As if GW was going to kill any important character in a botched surgery attempt. There you go for that potential plot, everyone BUT the black templars love Primaris, my primarch daddy likes primaris, my grandma dreadnoght loves them, my apothecary uncle splooges over the prospect of fiddling with their gene spunk. *I wanna be a primaris when I grow up* small firstborn toddlers say at the prospect of any character development. Every single relevant character that was ever alive in the current setting is or is going to be primaris, remember Calgar who lost all his fucking limbs and was on the verge of mega unalive? Yeah no dreadnoght for him, just graft a new set of balls and give him a dick pump until he grows 4 inches and voila Primaris Calgar, now more tech priest than space marine but also primaris. Man fuck this, lets just open up all the canned space marines and give them the Calgaris Proceedure.
I really hoped for a plot twist. Like dark angels for example why would they let brand new baby primaris into their inner circle... come on. Fallen and all that. I get that chapters like iron hands would love them since they're basically upgrades but chapters like black templars or some successors shouldn't be cool with it. I totally expected something to happen
Why i hate the Primaris Space Marines? Because it feels like im playing fucking Eldar. A entire faction decimated for profit and people love it. Just burn the Codex Astartes once for all.
Can I just say how I love your so casual about our opinions? Like I know that sounds weird but in this day and age where everyone has to be dead certain that everyone who has an opinion on stuff they like has to be so extra about it, you’re pretty chill.
If GW said "Hey, we're _finally_ updating the Space Marines line to be true scale. Now they look on tabletop how they're supposed to, and our rules are going to reflect how they're somewhere in between Guardsmen and Custodes." They would've gotten a _lot_ less hate then what they did. Ya, you would've had people complaining, but one of the more common things people were asking for when it comes to Space Marines, for decades, was making the marines true scale compared to Guardsmen. What they did was "Here's a *new* line of superior figures that are The Future. They're better at nearly everything then what has already existed, them coming in marks us 'progressing' the setting, and we're going to be pushing them _really, really hard_ in everything that we do.". They only pivoted after the sheer amount of pushback that they got. I'm not a Space Marine fan. Sisters is my chosen army. I was, to put it politely, annoyed with how they decided to roll out Primaris.
Maybe the hate had something to do with the fact it was Guilliman, the ultramarine primarch whom the Mary Sue hate applies to as much as his chapter, who brought them into the setting, the fact that Cawl could do things so outlandish for the setting (I mean, if Cawl used the emperor's design to upgrade the marines, why not have made them primaris from the beginning?) And the fact that the face of WH40K is no longer the grim and brutal looking firstborn, but the kind of... Almost noble and hopeful Primaris. I am probably only speaking for myself since I have only collected a few minis and just kept up with the lore and played the video games instead.
because heavy modifying Geneseed usually goes horriblely wrong and it is mega tech heresy. as for why the company didn't do it well, they hadn't thought of primaris yet. 40k has been around for years not just a few months.
@@memesterjohnson4096 I guess what I'm trying to say is making superER soldiers is kind of silly and GW should have known that it would go down bad. As for the geneseed argument, yeah, the cursed founding should have made Cawl think twice before tampering with an impossibly complex mixture of warp sorcery combined with technology. But hey, it wouldn't be the first time someone who should be below emps in terms of anything makes up something you'd think big E would have thought of before.
I have my issues with primaris. Let me preface this with the fact that I was introduced to 40K in 8th, my first games used missions from Tooth and Claw using space wolf intercessors. I had fun! I liked the space marines, because I only knew them as primaris. I adored their aesthetic, if they were a bit vanilla. I got into orks, and my father grew his space wolves. But then I saw forgeworld - and oh how pretty the firstborn there were! They were colorful, they had flavorful bits on them, every single part of them had a story behind them! And I realized just how much primaris just… don’t have anything to them. They’re vanilla, and while vanilla is a fine flavor, they missed out on some of the cooler things you could do with modeling. (This was improved with the addition of the Indomitus box, but the issue still remains, and only a few generic primaris models actually have any flavor. In fact, I think they contrast a bit harshly between pre and post indomitus.) I grew out of favor with primaris. I got into the Horus heresy - and I don’t quite know how to describe it, but it all felt so alive. I have more posing options (because my experience with primaris has been either monopose or having a lack of posing options), and my bits box is overflowing with parts that I have just for playing around with firstborn. Every squad has options! I don’t have to buy a completely different body kit if I want to build some lascannons, I can use the same bodies I have for bolter boys. I think my biggest problem with primaris is my lack of choice. Every kit is a one and done affair, unless I go bits hunting or 3D print stuff (among other things, most of which are 3rd party options). This isn’t to say that primaris *cant* be flavorful, they absolutely can, but it takes so much more effort to do so. I want them to be cool, I really do, but I just don’t feel it. Anyways, Ave Imperator, for Dorn, and for Terra!
Honestly, what i hate most about primaris marines, is the name..... "Primaris" sounds like thay SHOULD have been from the first founding, but thay arent......
I started after Primaris were introduced, and I just don't like how their armor looks bland/how their squads are just "all bolt gun" or "all plasma" or "all melta". Tactical Squads are cooler imo bc I like mixed weapons squad, on top of Mk X not scratching the same itch for me as Mk VI armor
I'm not into tabletop yet, i really only dived into the lore in the last two years. Someone explained it as "Cawl took the recipe for a Space Marine, and let it bake in the oven for a couple minutes extra". I need to read the books instead of picking up so much from the memes and lore channels. Then again, the setting is so grand and i don't even know what "first" book to start from anyway. I'm just happy to be here.
The only thing about primaris I was initially iffy on was the helmet because I love my beakies and Aquila pattern. But now I love them and they are my go to space marine design.
I definitely think that there would definitely be chapters out there who would murder the shit out of Primaris as Heresy. I also think that there would be chapters who would never fully accept the Primaris for their differences.
yeah okay I get the message, I'm unsubbing. Like when this is the sort of thing you ask and everyone is like bro you're right they're great, you've gone past the event horizon. They're literally space marine space marines. And for a serious answer - they're far too pure and innocent and they're made with far less of the 'problematic' elements of the Imperium being involved. Meaning they're increasingly easier to turn into unambigous goodie two shoes protagonists of the setting. And I'm just tired to death of that. When we have space marine space marines and everyone's like bro they're great, it's just gone too far
I just don't like the helmets . . . I like my grill faces and beakies more. The Primaris helmets just look like any other generic scifi helmet, while the other two are so iconic . . .
40K is a weird mixed bag, because inherently it’s a lot more of a sandbox setting then a continuing story, and it had been that way for an absurd amount of time before the Gathering Storm. I love when Games Workshop does push a narrative forward, especially the setting white one. The first couple editions of Age of Sigmar did that constantly and was great to watch! But I think you nailed the issue on the head when you talked about people being upset at the models that they paid not an insignificant amount of money for, and put a not an insignificant amount of time into painting and playing with into, being made completely obsolete, or even illegal to play a game. (RIP Night Lords Jump Lords and my friends with brand new Heresy dreads, we hardly knew ye 😅)
Blood Angels veteran here. I loved the Primaris models but absolutely hated the lore... until I saw an opportunity. And so, during the Sacking of Baal, my successor chapter in lore was slain almost to the man, until Dante and Big G came riding in with the cavalry. Since then, the chapter has been disgruntledly rebuilt almost entirely from the ground up with Primaris, but also has a massive Death company made of all the firstborns who survived the siege but not quite, and is closely monitored by the Sanguinary Cabal. I get to keep all the cool models while still being able to say, love the models, hate the lore, and my chapter story literally fits.
Also, demand for firstborns skyrocketed during the crazy days of primarisfall. So I sold almost my entire collection and bought a plane ticket to Japan to see waifu back then. I then bought supercheap Primaris models in Japan and came back and rebuilt my collection. Feels like I won in the end lol
40k was already dramatic enough. If they wanted to sell truescale Marines, they should have just made truescale Marines. To paraphrase old Russian propoganda; "Nyet comrade. Astartes is fine."
1.) This video has the best description of Belasarius Cawl I've ever heard. 2.) As some who does not play on table top (only killteam), I HATED primaris when they were released. I still don't really like their aesthetic personally. I think Mark X looks too new and shiny and I miss the old helmet grill, which is why my intercessors almost never wear Mark X helmets. Really digging into their lore and how the primaris marines react to one another and to the old squat marines really made me warm up to them. The fact that they've just been in stasis for thousands of years, means that while they have zero battlefield experience, they still have the great crusade era hopefulness that hasn't been beaten out of them through centuries of constant war. War of Secrets and The Great Work were great books to see that. I have definitely warmed up to them. I could see having a bigger problem if I was stuck with an obsolete army on tabletop. I think my only real issue now is that I wish there was more variety with the models.
My problem with primaris is less with the lore and more with design and how they’re starting to phase out firstborn models with primaris replacements. First, primaris have little weapon squad level weapon options, what I mean is that with tactical, assault, sternguard, vanguard and devastator squads, you have the option to have just anti-infantry weapons or have a few anti-vehicle, or in the case of the latter 3, you can have them all equip anti-vehicle weapons, while the primaris have no such option. Second, they have fewer customization options, this is most apparent in the space marine commander kit when you compare it to the monopose primaris character models. Even in the tactical squad you had the previous weapon customization as well as beakie heads, a gorget for the sergeant, different torso options, and the mk 7 heads even had a bit of variation. Finally, the primaris line effectively led to the end of the box dreadnought and the firstborn sternguard kit. Those are my reasons why I dislike the primaris marines even though I got into 40k during 8th edition.
I find it interesting that tons of characters in the setting had the same reaction to Primaris as the angry fans (calling it heresy to improve upon the Emperor's design) BUT they also recognise that they aren't doing too hot and don't really have a choice. They DID need reinforcements.
As someone more unfamiliar with the scene, this was a good breakdown. You were fair to each side of the argument without sounding like a fence-straddler, not always easy to do.
They look too clean in my opinion also they are now pumped out as full space marines not going through different aspects of warfare by starting in the scout company all the way to battle line. So all noobs without the grizzle of vets.
Hi Arthur, how goes it? great videos and in depth knowledge of the lore. I have tried my hand at a few black library books mainly ‘Legion’ and the Horus Hersey I believe plus painting a marine platoon ultra marine with the help of my local store, my brother was into this too. It is fascinating how the lore seems interwoven with historical stories of the past with names such as Baal and Horus to the 40k lore fiction and future and that even adults engage with the brand but I also feel sometimes painting the models they seem a bit overpriced, not sure what other people think of this but I do window shop when I walk past my local store too 😆 Take care, battle safe and have fun brethren
An interesting topic for discussion is the existence of a large group of people who hate the Heresy Horus series. And I totally understand. Prior to this series, the Emperor and his Primarchs were mythical creatures, a memory of humanity's better times. And the Horus Heresy, whether they wanted it or not, turned these characters into actors of a family soap opera, and it was pretty much the same under the Emperor like in modern 40k times
I'm one of those people who disliked when they pulled the curtain back on the Heresy. Having all of it be myth, legend, and only told through _very_ unreliable narrators was fun. Having the revisions as to who got stabbed protecting the Emperor during the fight with Horus actually be canon because in lore there's Inquisitonal factions at odds with each other (one is about finding and recording the truth, one is about obfuscating the truth) and the only other accounts are dead, MiA, or fallen to Chaos.
I low key was like "I'm just going to buy Horus heresy stuff and keep my battle force first born". Man...that didn't age well. At the very least I didn't buy into Horus Heresy at all at this point. Dodging bullets boys, stay serpentine.
It's a bit of a double-edged sword. I think the human appetite for more and curiosity means it was always inevitable that the primarchs would be explored further... Not to mention the money they bring. But the long-dead mythical legends of the primarchs and the emperor, when he wasn't a vegetable, did make the setting so damn cool and feel so unique, dark and deep... Maybe even believable dare I say. And the fact that now the internet is full of clips with some dork explaining Perturabo's favourite breakfast cereal etc definitely means something has been lost.
1. The justification is goofy and wasn't required, just wait for a new edition and adjust the rules so that it's always been like this, but only since last tuesday. 2. The Grim Darkness isn't the war, it's the slow heat death of civilisation.
No one really minds the primaris marines. Had GW rolled them out as an armor and model update, they would have been accepted over time with no issue. HOWEVER…. GW went with the money grab option and tried to roll them as a whole new breed, F’ing the 25 years of story as they went along. They were on the verge of completely invalidating everything space marine that had come out before and seem to only just notice the fan backlash and pulled back. But long time players knew the writing was on the wall for the armies as they stood so rather than rebuild, they just walked away. I’m one of those. I dumped thousands into several armies starting in the early 90s. When the primaris dropped, I knew I would never drop another dollar into marines unless it was at a garage sale. My eye would forever after only purchase the armies that I had forsook in the first place because of marines or because they had not come out, like DKOK, sisters, and squats.
A friend of mine told me why he wasn't on board with the Primaris, he said cause it wrecked at the start some of the cannon lore. Like originally fixing the gene mutations of the founding chapters. That would mean no more blood angels falling to the red thirst, or space wolves turning into dogs. It got retconned he said. Treat this as a 3rd hand account, I know next to dick about the original Primaris lore. I look forward to your channel videos, you met the niche of being chill and brief about things. Question. If I scoop up someone's manlet marines can I use them as Votan?
I think Primaris should have just been rescaled Firstborn. I don't like how the Primaris undermined and overshadow the Firstborn.
They are basically Ultramarines in different colours
I agree, but I believe primaris marines should've been a detachment of the firstborn, like an in between regular marines and terminators
@derykhenderson5187There were atleast 6 different versions of super duper marines including space marines themselves to thunder warriors. This isn’t even including the shit chaos gets up to. I don’t know why people act like Primaris are some completely different thing like grey knights or Custodes are.
Rescaled Chaos Space Marines are still Firstborn despite having more or less the same proportions as Primaris, so yeah, I agree that Primaris should have just been a new armor mark for Firstborn.
@universeonyt it could be treated like a reward once you reach a certain ranking, perhaps?
There is also the problem that Primaris are an entirely new thing, when they could have just as well done a range refresh like they did the Chaos Space marines after 8th Ed. But the way Primaris was introduced just was a slap in the face for every lore enthusiast and the people worried that GW just made them lose cash on models that would be Legend'd out of playability.
And the new Guardsmen make the whole scale argument void as well since they're barely half a head smaller than Primaris
I'm also reminded of the Aspect Marine Argument, pretty much every new Primaris Infantry unit is some one note Kit, bland unadorned Intercessors with a different flavor of GUN, that's even less imaginative than the Aspect Warriors of the Eldar that have major lore stuff behind every specialist unit, that are also visually distinct.
Missing that face grill is also very jaring.
its even worse when they release a whole kit/unit that something a single tactical squad/devastator squad could do. I found running tac squads after the 2W update along with a redemptor to be much more appealing and flexible in an ever changing game let alone tournament play where you carry the same army against other players/factions making a general all rounder army, difficult to build, hard to control, costly both in points and IRL money. not even going to mention how slow and jarring the release is since when a new unit drops the rules from that new unit + a codex update make it so that its necessary to include i.e plasma being the only infantry anti tank until 9th ed, making phobos and haft baked units rather than a complete units like a unit than wouldn't get superseded in its role when the next model drop comes.
The guardsmen thing is void, as they're enhanced and modified humans
I prefer the Mk IV style face, I can still remember the first time cracking open my 5th edition starter set and seeing that MK
IV with the flamer.
@@SCHMALLZZZ that's not mk4. mk4 would have looked like the one from the armour through the ages set.
@@lordofshades9852guardsmen are enhanced and modified humans? What lore are you reading?
Honestly, I don't think all of the criticism was just old fans whining about models. GW dropped the ball HARD with their lore. If Primaris marines were just upscaled Firstborn marines, or if Cawl had made a new mark of space marine armor, or even if they made Primaris marines a thing but the only way to make them is with new aspirants or crossing the rubricon, the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad.
The thing people were concerned about was the whole "Cawl has tens of thousands of space marines from the Heresy era and they're all perfect and better than everyone else and their gene flaws are gone and they can't fall to chaos and they saved the Imperium!" It was so poorly done. Blood Angels were now red Ultramarines, Space Wolves were grey Ultramarines, Dark Angels were green Ultramarines. People watched the individual identity of their favorite factions get fucking obliterated by a wrecking ball and had a new identity shoved in their face just because "We decided this identity is more brand friendly so you have to like it." The natural reaction to that is to become contrarian and say "Fuck you, the old models look worse but at least they're something I can like."
Always this. No matter how much I try to like some primaris designs, something still feels terribly off about them as an army and puts me off seriously collecting them. Firstborn chapters used to have 10,000 years to pick from and grow with their own customs and armour marks - and now pretty much all space marine homebrews are forcibly rooted in this 42k "cawl gifted you with some new seed by sending random custodes across the galaxy to find your little chapter" storyline. There's absolutely no getting around it without downgrading to older, unsupported models, and it makes the universe feel small.
Hyperbole and nostalgia really, the lore has addressed the upside and downside of primaris marines and how the og's are still kicking ass. It's not like the tactical marine looked different for each chapter and GW are still releasing updated chapter specific models.
@@dylanwagstaff2505 I'm talking about at launch. There was no "firstborn are still more experienced and better" back then. It was very much "primaris are the bestest thingz evar!!!!"
As for models, at launch, all of the new primaris models were very clearly Ultramarines. Every lieutenant had a laurel, every captain had a frilled cape, every sword was a gladius, most of the boxes even came with Ultramarine transfers. Compared to what was available for firstborn kits, all of the character models for primaris were laughably ill fitting for half of the first founding chapters' aesthetics.
Its honestly a legitimate complaint when if you essentially have someone turn up to game day with some stuff that they pulled out of their arse because 'reasons' and plonked it down on the table going "well its time to play kids!" Now if they'd spent some time working up to it, introducing some at least 'plausible' reasons that this going whipped out and waved around in front of everyone without any shame. People might have taken it a bit better because at the launch of them, it was about as elegant and well done as two monkeys trying to fuck a football while asking you to pay to watch.
Hence you get exactly two types of people
The ones who nope out of there and don't need to see it in their lives and the ones that are fully prepared to plonk down 500 bucks to get front row seats at the football fucking.
40k desperately needs something new and interesting to it, but oh boy, it needs to be done well before anyone will want it.
@@krissteel4074 Yup, any sort of decent lead up would have worked. Introduce Cawl earlier, have a campaign over a sytem with an STC for the new tacticus armour. But no, blatant profit over fans. Baffling to see this overlooked.
My biggest problem was how they basically tried to turn everything into various colours of ultramarines. Primaris worked fine for ultras, fists etc right out of the gate but the really unique chapters like space wolves and blood angels lost so so much of their unique identity and flavour... Also, the early primaris looked too clean and high tech, they looked like Tau. They have definitely got better and the black templar range refresh has given me a lot of hope as they are undeniably a big upgrade
The Primaris Death Company Kit is a fucking joke compared to the Firstborn Version
@@sirdragon6860 THIS; I'm a Lamenter Player and lemme tell you; for making my first born company the death company set is a fucking godsent! Its cheap, has a LOT of BA decore and has a lot of nice bits! Meanwhile the Primaris counterpart is literally 5 intersessors with the Primaris BA upgrade pack attached to it.
Well anything New that looks even remotely "clean" gets called Tau. Freaking Craftworld Eldar are super clean and High Tech but don't get accused of looking too much like Tau.
@@DemonicEngineer its called bullshit opinion. people expect brand new rolled out space marines to already come covered in battle scars, bolter holes and honorific text glued all over their armor straight out of the forge world.
I’ll never forgive the neutering of the iron hands’ aesthetic it’s one of the only things they have
Hate Primaris because they're a greedy cashgrab to get marine players to buy an entire new army with a halfassed handwave lore justification. They could have just been an update to marine kits as a new armour mark and no one would have minded
o be fair im fine with a 'separate" batch of marines but they made the primaries soo good that the first born does even need to be around anymore other than they have better battle experiences the primaries is just better.
My biggest problem with Primaris is: Firstborns were very versatile tactically. With Primaris, GW is simply printing one of each type to fulfill what firstborn marines could do. And it took FOREVER for firstborns to get updated so they were cost effective. Finally, the biggest nail in the coffin - the release of Primaris coincided with them making Scouts Elite choices instead of troop choices. Most of my scouts are now sitting in a box since they are effectively worthless.
Everything after 8th is trash. 2nd-6th is the golden era as far as rules/gameplay goes.
@@ObjectiveAnalysis You went a little far anything past 5th is mediocre to horrible.
@@fuzztsimmers3415 Tell me you're both over 40 without telling me you're both over 40.
@@ObjectiveAnalysisPlayer numbers completely disagree with you. The reason for 8th edition was that the game was stagnating.
I think a large part of the annoyance is that primaris both in lore and irl felt less like a new generation and more a replacement, like as if instead of a different flavor of coke that occasionally goes back to the older flavors, they give you a sprite, which in all fairness alot of people prefer, but it a whole different thing.
It doesn't help that it led to alot of "will they won't they" when it comes to older kits, cause it isn't as gratifying to play with two kits of completely different qualities so alot of us who like things like devstators have to wait and see or wonder if they were already replaced. The options in that case is either play a different faction or play Horus Heresey where you don't get the cool primaris stuff.
It feels less like a evolution and more like they're kicking out the older workers who have been there for years with new spunky guys who aren't bad by any means, but the fact that there is still a air of who else from the old guard is going to get kicked and whose going to get promoted is still there.
As a noob I wonder if it would have been possible and preferable to just make these new updated miniatures without having any new lore for them? Like they were only the normal Space Marines but in an updated product. Was there really a need to point out their differences?
@@Ewil.BluetoothIt's basically just to advertise a size update. Also they aren't even true to scale.
@@Ewil.Bluetooth to be fair im fine with a 'separate" batch of marines but they made the primaries soo good that the first born does even need to be around anymore other than they have better battle experiences the primaries is just better.
@@jmgonzales7701 I would have preferred if it was only an update of the power armor instead.
Because it's not ok to make the Emperors Angels obsolete imo.
i think they should've just gave the old marines better proportion's literally wouldve caused no problems
You mean like they did with the Chaos Space Marines?
@@Grubnar fucking EXACTLY
why?
For me the problem was more that it just felt so contrived.
It was less about old being good new bad but more that "hey heres just a guy who figured it out, we invented him 2 weeks ago, oh and he can do it better, in less time and also with traitors, they never corrupt by the way, also we made the bolter but better, and we made 6 versions of it with their own statlines". Admittedly some of those are somewhat fixed but the bad smell lingers.
Its also about how each of these guys in their kits have a seperate list entry where a good half of them could be "ye you can equip these with flamers instead", sure sell them with the unique name but god please cut down how many seperate rules entries are needed for a unit with 0 options, you should just make them the options.
The main problem was introducing them as something different. Had they just said, “these are the new sculpts, they’re bigger now” nobody would have cared.
This is exactly their blunder
Strictly from a lore perspective, the reason that I find the 40k universe compelling is that is it a vision of the future in which technology - at least for humanity - is mostly ancient and stagnant. I’m fascinated by the idea of relic weapons, armour, and vehicles and ships that have been in service for centuries or even millennia, constantly being cobbled back together into working order from spare parts because the Imperium has forgotten more about technology than it currently knows. Adding to this rich texture are the ancient traditions and flaws (both physical and mental) of the Legions. The Primaris threaten to bulldoze all this glorious rough, gritty, lived-in atmosphere with their slick and homogenized newness. There’s no better example of how the Primaris undermine what makes 40k unique than Redemptor Dreadnoughts: in lore, the advanced systems of these Primaris Dreadnoughts burn through the lifeforces of the severely injured marines who pilot them, resulting in the frequent replacement of the marines and their sarcophagi. If GW does away with Firstborn marines, this means the end of what was previously the defining characteristic of Dreadnoughts, that they are venerable ancients.
To be fair even the original Astartes were kinda a rush job .
The primarus are just what the space marines were originally intended to be.
If a lady named Astartes can make space marines why not an actual smart guy
Space marine power armor got better so why not the marines.
I loathe that goofy stagnation stuff in 40k it's basically British writers cramming the feelings about their collapsing civilization into 40k
"The Primaris threaten to bulldoze all that is-" Lmao lemme stop you right there dweeb. If you're losing your shit over the most marginal of technological advancements then you should've abandoned the hobby years ago, bc Space Marines get a new mark of Power Armor every couple of years and have gotten this way before the Primaris were a thing.
The problem with stagnation is that it goes nowhere.
I don’t think the age of a dreadnought pilot was ever *the* defining characteristic. There are plenty of beings way older than them. The defining characteristic of a dreadnought is “severely wounded space marine piloting a machine because service ends at death, and severe wounds ain’t death.”
My biggest problem with primaris is that almost all primaris units on the tabletop are just variations of already existing firstborn units who, like you said, were blatantly better than their og counterparts to boost their sales. The Repulsor is a Landraider. ATV-Attack Bike. Outrider-Bike Squad. Aggressor-Centurion Assault. Eradicator-Centurion Devastator. Impulsor-Razorback. All of the random landspeeders. A primaris version of every single character including 40000 lieutenants. The list goes on and on. My biggest problem with this is that once primaris became better balanced with firstborn units it leaves an incredible amount of bloat for their codex, where they just have a bunch of units that all kind of do the same things but slightly differently. Maybe that's a good thing because it allows for you to build your army however you wish, while giving you new options that don't make your old units obsolete. But I prefer simplicity whenever possible. Anyway, cheers.
That is the point, they want to make both available while having the same option for both.
Edit: I agree with you, that the rules bloat is a problem.
Don't forget bloat within the Primaris line itself: Hellblasters vs Erradicators vs the new misdile dudes, or all the variants of intercessor.
Hi Arthur, I'm Deez
Deez what ? 😃
@@tygawyga5411 Dio Deez Brando, it's in my name
@@DioDeezBrando 🥜
DEEZ NUTZ LOL GOTTEM HAHAHAHA 💯💯💯💵💸🤑💰💵💸💸 I hit a homeless man with my car in 2008 and I didn’t even stop to check if he lived
@@wanamingo4961 💀
Small story. I was introduced to Warhammer 40k back in high school because of the series Emperor text-to-speech (specifically the clip of everyone killing each other because of heresy). I watch through the series, get a bit of lore watching it and become interested. Go search up more about it online and learn Cadia's fallen, Guilliman's returned, and the Marines got an upgrade. I had more of a problem with Guilliman and Cadia than the new Marines (not that I had anything to stand on because I would've considered my self pretty amateur and casual at the time I just watched the web-series at that point and was worrying over nothing compared to a long-time fan).
Small edit for clarity: I'm fine with the story advancing now.
Hey one second... your comment (to me at least) says that it is from 5 days ago, but the video right now is only about 40 minutes old... ???
@@totalnerd5674 Video was available 5 days ago as members only then was released publicly.
@@caseycarroll476 Ah
The story advancing makes the universe feel tiny by focusing on the "big events" that somehow constantly involve Ultramarines. GW should have focused on more Badab War type stories WITHIN the 10,000 years since the Heresy. There was no need to focus on a select few characters... unless you're trying to appeal to the marvel demographic.
TTS is weird because I'm pretty sure they started that series like right before 8th edition and the 40k ending it's decades of plot stagnation and somehow managed to predict the future with it's whole storyline about the primarchs coming back
I think the reason people hate Primaris Marines is because the firstborn marines were the things that the franchise as it is today was built upon, and when Primaris was introduced and replaced the old marines in the dark imperium box people were definitely not too stoked about losing that link to their past still being made on the scale it once was.
In short People don’t like change.
Woulda gone over a lot smoother if Primaris was a new set of fancy armor for marines rather then “new super cool better-then-your-marines” marines
@@amishrambo4096 Agreed.
If it went like this.
Guilliman wakes up and says,
Hey there marines, i see your armour is getting a bit shoddy.
I had these blueprints in The making and it seems they were forgotten along with me going into a coma.
Dont like chage plays a game aboit never ending war
Um war and change are twins u dont get one without soon getting the other
And then you have guys like me who saw the old ones decades ago thought they looked ridiculous forgot about 40k entirely, then saw primaris, thought they looked cool and got into 40k off a box of intercessors.
I always wondered why they didn'tjust reintroduce thunder warriors with space marine oversight and kill switches
Stole this from Reddit: Imagine DC Comics sitting around and trying to decide how to boost comic sales over the next few years.
"I know," a writer says, "Let's make Bigger Batman."
The market analyst shuffles through some data and says "There may actually be consumer interest in making Batman bigger. The story line does reference him being a peak physical specimen, but he's always drawn the same size as the other male characters. I think the fans would react well to a larger Batman."
"No," says the writer. "I don't mean that we should just draw Batman bigger. That would be stupid and I wouldn't be creating anything new. Let's make Bigger Batman, a totally new character."
"Um," says the analyst, but the the writer presses hard for what he is calling his creative contribution to the legacy of comics and the director likes the projection for how new characters boost sales so in the next series, they introduce Bigger Batman.
It turns out that Bruce Wayne has a brother. Chad Wayne is bigger and stronger and faster and better looking than Bruce. He was separated at birth through a hospital mix up and his adopted parents were killed in a mugging gone wrong in a way that was just like Bruce's story but more tragic. He took over the adopted family's business empire that was just like Bruce's but bigger and now he has come to Gotham in its hour of need to do Bruce's job but better.
He has the Bigger Batmobile and Bigger Batarangs and pretty soon he has the Bigger Batsignal. It's actually hard to tell the Batsignal from the Bigger Batsignal if they aren't both on together since they are exactly the same except in proportion, but the bigger engine in the Bigger Batmobile gets Bigger Batman to the scene first unless he's solving a bigger crime somewhere else in which case people look mildly disappointed when they realize that it's just Batman that has arrived and often choose to wait for his brother.
"So, thanks Batman. We really appreciate you showing up to save us from this bank robbery, but we'll be fine, really, and Bigger Batman should be along at any minute."
Pretty soon, Bruce Wayne stops putting on the Batsuit at all which is just as well because the Batsignal (now known as the Little Batsignal) has been put in storage. Bruce develops a drinking problem and eventually people in Gotham forget that Little Batman was ever a thing.
In the story the writer has created, all of this makes perfect sense. Commissioner Gordon likes Bigger Batman because he's better at solving crime. The citizens of Gotham like Bigger Batman because he makes them safer. Vicki Vale likes Bigger Batman because he's better looking and has a bigger dick.
As a comic fan, I fucking hate Bigger Batman, and not for any kind of internal inconsistency with the story. I hate Bigger Batman because with a few words- with nothing more than a few exclamation points, really- the writer has made a beloved character with decades of rich backstory into the smaller and less impressive version of itself. Bigger Batman doesn't add anything positive to the story unless you are actually going for satire, but he does fuck up the existing character of Batman.
That's why I hate the Primaris marines.
Perfectly said honestly, its just so fucking weird.
The old heroic scale was better for identifying game pieces at the distances you'd be away from them when playing.
True scale is better for promotional images on a screen.
Also have you seen the newer Sisters of Battle and Guard models next to Primaris? Scale creep is already making 'true scale' incorrect. Kasarkin in particular are huge.
That's why I use Bolt Action minis for my humans instead of the crap GW makes.
Yeah, half of his point are kinda shit.
.Scale kreep has already doomed truescale.
.No im not going to cut GW slac becuse they made 40k, that logic is kapitalist BS
.GW could have "refreshed" the
space marines by just true scaling first born.
And so on and so on
Imagine Gulliman watching his brothers scream and gnash and throw themselves to the warp as their legions split themsleves into ineffectual splinters and fall to infighting and chaos and then actually having the audacity to to pull Cawl to the side and tell him "aight im taking a nap at the capitol of Imperium 2, make sure to have my nine secret full strength legions of Space Marine 2s ready when I get up"
Also imagine knowing part of the cornerstone of your lore is that there is nothing new, that even something like a "regular" bolter has centuries of owners recorded like an old library book, that every "regular" suit of armor is an ancient and nearly irreplacable loss, and this chucklefriend comes out of nowhere with millions of suits of brand new marine armor, terminator armor, flying tanks and new weapons and suddenly every chapter is dumping their old relics in the bin for the new stuff
Well after thinking about it for a bit here's my thoughts.
I think Primaris undermine one of the core themes of 40k, the idea of stagnation. The Imperium is supposed to be a dying empire that's relying on tech from ten thousand years ago with little to no advancement on anything. Cawl (basically created to justify the Primaris from a lore pov) created a whole new kind of space marine, and updated their entire armory and vehicle line. They also are made with the idea of being adaptable to several threats. This means that the idea that the Imperium is a dying empire kind of dumb since they can advance on the tech level of their most elite troops they can deploy in numbers. It makes it so that the Tau or Eldar's main advantage in tech moot since the Imperium can invent stuff now without causing a civil war.
I also find the story of how Cawl adapted the geneseed to remove all the flaws and make it harder to corrupt by chaos annoying. On a model perspective it makes it so that initally it felt very generic with primaris, sure likely a lot of it will return and some already have but it'll likely take some time. I also find it weird that some guy who didn't exist in the setting could do this but someone like Fabius Bile who would be a lot more easily set up in the lore to make something like the Primaris never did. Maybe that's how they create CSM Primaris without having traitor Primaris.
From a model perspective I have the issue that it makes it so that the Marine bloat of releases is even worse becuase GW is basically gonna create a Primaris version of every SM unit that will be better than the Firstborn version to increase sales, while some ranges still use models that were made two decades ago. Also this might be a personal thing but I find the Primaris naming system annoying because with Firstborn models the type of marine was easily put in a name. But with a name like "Incursor" "Intercessor" "Aggressor" means I have to look at the model and then the name again to understand what the unit does. Which is pretty obviously for copyright reasons.
I have issues with it from a lore and hobby point of view and putting this together it makes it feel like GW wants to overhaul the SM line to sell more models and force SM players to change out their old model lines overtime. Considering the rules that I've seen for Firstborn models in 10th and how restricted they are makes me feel like they're gonna try to phase them out completely by 11th-12th ed.
Umitigated stagnation isn't very stagnating. It's the interplay of progress and regression that makes something truely feel like it is stuck in place because otherwise there is no contrast. What the primaris represent is simply a new era of stagnation.
@@amanofnoreputation2164 No it isn't. It was a unique improvement by a tech priest and not the Emperor. Looking past the mere heresy of mettling like that in the Space Marine geneseed, Cawl committed heresy of his own order by creating something new without a STC. Space Marines were the best of the best, we didn't need a one up. This was a trash idea to sell new models for money, that's it.
@@amanofnoreputation2164 Usually in 40k when new things are made they are usually either a direct downgrade put into production because the knowledge to make the superior older version was just lost. Or its weird wacky sidegrades with crippling downsides or very niche applications. Thats now the setting SHOULD advance into new eras of stagnation, but with primaris they are just, better, there is no downside, no price to pay, no fault to overcome, they are just, better. Primaris lacks any identity at all because their entire premise is being "better" which isnt interesting at all because anyone can just say "make robot man bigger!", meanwhile it takes some writing skill to properly sell how, for example Terminators are baddass because they aren't just a guy in biggerer armour, that armour is an irreplaceable relic that has been diligently maintained for millenia, most chapters only have a few dozen left so getting to wear one is an unfathomably high responsibility and one of the highest honours of the chapter.
Compare that to gravis armour, which are just mass manufactured heavy versions of normal space marine armour, its a little slower but more durable, oh okay cool, that sucks, thats not interesting in the slightest.
8:20 you dont really get it do you. the black templars are ignorant they would never accept blasphemy as space marines were perfect because the emperor made them. sure some fans are upset of having to buy the whole army. but the problem is primaris marines would never go good with dark angels, blood angels, and especially black templars the most.
My issue with primaris is you end up paying more for less options it limits creativity in options with a tactical squad you can run a multi melta a combi melta and a melta gun but with the intercessors your options are what bolters do you want for the squad
Exactly! That’s my problem with all of these silly heavy support marines that could all be made obsolete if primaris just had a version of devastator squads
I get why people like Primaris, as I currently have a friend whose building an army exclusively out of Primaris Marines and I will admit that some of the Primaris kits do look really cool(like the Bladeguard and Phobos infiltrators). If people like Primaris and want to build Primaris armies exclusively, then they should absolutely go for it.
HOWEVER, as someone who first got into the franchise through watching TH-cam videos back in 2015, up until this point I’ve always felt like the Primaris have never been quite as iconic as their firstborn brethren. Sure, they’re the poster boys now, but a lot of the best memes/games that helped me get into the franchise to begin with had firstborn marines exclusively. Granted, I’m not too sure how long that’s gonna last with Space Marine 2 on the horizon, but still.
This, alongside me just simply preferring the looks of the MKVII and MKVI armor in general, led me to start my army as a primarily firstborn force. However, the firstborn in 40k face a very unique problem in the sense that they’re a dying breed, both on tabletop and in the lore, which is not a good feeling(albeit being suitably grimdark). But because I’m a stubborn prick who does what he wants, I don’t give a shit. As long as I can get ahold of some firstborn models, or a firstborn conversion kit, or even a few 3rd party bits if necessary to field my awkwardly scaled boys, then I’m happy. If my boys don’t have the spotlight no more, that’s fine, I was homebrewing my army’s lore anyway. I just don’t want them to disappear from the setting they helped to popularize and for the Primaris to become iconic enough to truly succeed them in the spotlight.
Ok, possibly unhinged rant over.
I have a little space marine force and honestly when you swap the primaris with firstborn helmets you will feel home. Just add some purity seals maybe some oldschool shoulder pads and u are good
I think its kinda telling that the first major 40k release to feature Primaris is SM2, released 7 years after the introduction of primaris. Like jeez lol. And we did just get Boltgun, which features Firstborn, not primaris.
For me, I’m personally upset with how “corporate” their inception seemed. Everything for their lore to their aesthetics just screams: ‘Look! Newer better space marines for you to buy! I bet the young people will love these!’ So not a fan, but obviously a company’s gotta make money, right?
Also a lot of their sets are just downright goofy looking😂.
This. Just the "broader audience" target margin given a lot of fluff so long time fans don't completely eviscerate them
They just look fucking horrible. They’re really trying to retcon those distinct, badass designs and playing it off as “firstborns” while effectively reshaping their image into gothic buzz lightyears. Truly disgusting.
I expect anyone into the hobby to stop buying official minis and 3d print truescale as much as possible. Don’t even get me started on those Tyranid redesigns
Exactly!
For me it felt like a case of "break glass in case of emergency" for GamesWorkshop.
Like the execs were thinking: "We need more money, break the glass!" And the glass was "You people like Space Marines, right? Like... a lot, right? Well... here are Space Marines that are even MORE Space Mariney than the ones you already know and love!"
For me it was basically a jumping the shark moment.
The ONLY reason for shitardis apearance was - money.
They could have just released primaris marines as just an upgrade to the old marines. Give everyone some new organs and armor and call it a day. Would have been awesome. No one would have been mad. Instead they went for the flashy "Its a whole new kind of marine" and they teased all this in-universe tension about it that all went nowhere anyway.
They should have just been a model update.
Having all the most insanely intolerant and defiantly independent chapters like Black Templars and Red Scorpions just instantly roll over and adapt primaris, like, what? What the actual fuck?
If they absolutely had to introduce these market research brand recognition optimization marines to the setting, at least dont pretend there wouldn't be holdouts and make them something of a sidegrade. Like there is actually no fucking shot the Red Scorpions who barelly even lets inquisitorial inspectors into their secret hideout to check their geneseed integrity would just welcome in a bunch of new fancy upgrade marines that are totally better and deff not made using any kind of heretical means.
Honestly, the problems I have about the primaris is completely down to the lore. The circumstances to me are just silly in the setting.
The more I think about it, the more I realise that I just hate Mark 10 armour more than anything else. If they had just upscaled Mark 7, maybe I'd have tolerated the idea of primaris more. I absolutely love that armour and how iconic it is.
Yeah, a big part is the Aesthetic of Primaris just....doesn't fit SpaceMarines most of the time. There's some Kits that look great(most of the HQs, Phobos Armoured Units&Bladeguard are fine), but the overwhelming majority of Primaris Models just....don't feel like SpaceMarines.
I don't like all the funky Primaris versions of the Devastator Squad. The names are odd but fine, but the Aesthetic and the fact they are ALL separate Kits&Units is unnecessary, there's things far more deserving of complete refreshes and some Factions that have been around for years and are STILL missing quite a few Kits&Units.
I hate how bland&samey Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, Heavy Intercessors, Aggressors and all the E-Devastators look.
I don't like the look of the Redemptor Chassis, period. They tried&failed to combine and replace the Contemptor&Castraferrum Pattern Dreadnoughts.
And lastly....holy shit the Hover Vehicles except for the Astreus do NOT belong in the SpaceMarine Model Range...especially the Heavy Stubbers. There's literally over half a dozen Weapon Types they could've chosen instead of a damn Heavy Machine Gun. Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter, Auto Cannon, Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolt Cannon, Multi-Laser, Volkite Culverins and probably a few more things capable of doing the same things as a Heavy Stubber that fit SpaceMarines better. Aesthetically it looks weird, and Lore-wise it makes no fucking sense and is just lazy&inefficient.
Primaris are better in every way
For me it's the helmet that's the biggest problem, it's just so painfully generic looking. And I know it's based on the mk IV armor, it still isn't as interesting as mk VI or mk VII helmets, especially mk VII. The anger has turned into a slight annoyance, lol.
Exactly, to both replies. You could argue that Mark 10 is more detailed, but ultimately they sacrifice the space knight aesthetic for something more generically sci-fi with all the extra curves. Plus you just can't beat the angry mouth grill.
The new sternguard kit has a primaris mk7 helmet. Maybe there’s hope for the future
I think primaris are better when it comes to scale, but the firstborn are no doubt slightly better proportion wise.
I respect this take a lot.
I may have to agree with you
Wait, what's the difference between scale and proportion?
@@Fuzmonster59 scale is the overall size of the model in comparison to other models, proportion is the size of parts of the model in comparison to other parts on the model.
@@Fuzmonster59 We like em Chunky
@@davidrittle5980 "we like em big, we like em chonky" - Unknown Ork warlord, circa M39.7
I prefer the better scaled models and better sculpts however, the customisation options with first born kits are unmatched, for example in tactical marines you get various armour marks, I want the new kits to have the ability to make each model an individual if needed, the blade guard kit is a great example of how at the end of building your kit you should have spares
now you either buy a full unit box with faction specific designs on monopose models or be content with alternat helm/pauldrons.
@@guardsmen2945 yeah like the old kits had more "personality" I guess, the new primaris are great blank templates for customisation etc, but the upgrade sprues aren't enough, look at the space wolves and blood angel kits for first born they're so good they need equivalent for intercessors etc
I personally don’t particularly like the look of primaris, the firstborn literally define the look of the setting and for me it’s infinitely more appealing.
the only thing I have issue with the Primaris is that Cawl came out of nowhere and claimed he had somehow improved the emperors work on the gene seed and wasn't instantly killed for heresy.
That was my biggest take too. Who's this gigantic weirdo? Why is nobody challenging his secret army? Why did he stay quiet so long where it could have been info shared before?
Read „the great work“, he didn‘t came out of nowhere, primaris have been commissioned, and killing „him“ is not that easy since his consciousness is data and can be reuploaded plus he has basically a primarch as bodyguard with him at all time….
@@juzkful
Ah yes, because *Primarchs* out-rank the Inquisition and Administratum... *totally.*
Christ, dude. You know better than to half-ass an argument like that. Cawl would've been arrested and executed of heresy. ALL of the Primarchs *combined* wouldn't be able to stop that from happening.
Primarchs cant just say "no" to the Administratum and Inquisition with something like geneseed tampering. You act like Guiliman is THE ruling figure of the Imperium, when in reality he's practially been given a desk in a closet to get him to fuck off but still feel useful.
The Administratum would sanction the Inquisition to arrest and/or eliminate Cawl under *any* means necessary.
Guiliman CANNOT openly rebel against them or else he'll split the Imperium with *another* civil war.
And the Inquisition have killed things more complicated than an A.I. before. Cawl isn't *that* difficult a mark. E.M.P.s exist in this universe *too,* actually, so it might be as easy as *legally* raiding his workshop while he's there, popping an EMP the second before you put a few bullets in him, and then blowing up the facility anyway like they always do, and then walking away... with Guiliman having absolutely *ZERO* authority in the matter.
Cawl ain't that hard to kill, and he ain't getting a free pass for his blatantly heretical experiments. He's a dead little toaster-fucker.
@@juzkful When has this kinda thing ever been a problem for the imperium? Like realistically his lab would get atomized by an ordinatus or he'd get butchered by the Minotaurs or something not just for the heresy, but the sheer fucking audacity to act like he can so forcefully assert himself as a player in imperial politics. Like nah, the high lords isnt having any of that lol.
Good Points I agree with a lot of them
But the fact of the matter is GW could’ve just updated the models
I mean look at old orc models they are ridiculous but they did not make a new orc breed just so they could improve the models. It would have been stupid to do that. Same with the Marines, if they were so desperate to create a change to justify the improvement they could have just said that it is a new Mark of armor and that is why it looks so different. But honestly I think it would have been better for them to just make the improvement and say nothing
Honestly I am very disappointed with the primaris because I had assumed that their introduction was to lay the groundwork for a second heresy. I thought the return of Bobby was going to result in a split if the next Primark disagrees with him. I was assuming that Robert would try to change the imperium too much and that these Primeros would side with Robert. I thought this was some kind of genius plan because then you’ve got a reason to have the. Space marines versus space marines where chaos is not involved.
Nope just trash excuse, going completely against the lore, to sell more models.
You put 10 times the thought GW did into their own idea with this one comment.
The biggest crime of primaris was no more classic helmets.
well some of this aged like milk. GW just announced they're discontinuing a bunch of the Firstborn kits, some are getting their rules removed from the main game and put into Warhammer Legends, which is fine if you're a casual player but if you go to any kind of organized event you're likely to not be allowed to use your older units. some of them have newer Primaris units they can be proxied as (Bikers = Outriders for example) but some of them don't have any analogues, like the Land Speeder Storm or Ironclad Dreadnaught. also yes, bringing in new people is what keeps hobbies alive but we also have to be careful about what sort of people we bring in, because trying too hard to get broad marketing appeal very often too heavily dilutes what originally made the IP great, I don't want to lose out on what made 40k 40k because GW wants to be Marvel (not saying GW currently wants to be Marvel but that a desire for mainstream appeal leads to that, just look at what's going on with WotC and Magic and D&D, they've pissed off their core customer base pretty bad)
Funny you should say they want to be marvel coz thats actually what they said in a previous investors report a few years back. They want to be a house hold brand like marvel.
maybe the problem about primaris is they get standardized overtimes rather than be backup for the existing firstborn imo
If I were to reboot the absolute disaster that has been 40K from the Gathering Storm onwards, I would retcon all the utter dribble about Primaris being better, taller, stronger than Marines. People could keep their ugly stupid minis but Primaris would be Spartan III’s to the Firstborn’s Spartan II’s.
The “improved” gene seed would simply have higher acceptance rates and allow for older candidates. Primaris would be soldiers to the Firstborns warriors. Their acceptance among the Firstborn would limited at best until subsequent generations could be forged properly by their own chapters. There would be far less of them as well. The amount that Kawl pulls out his ass in complete secrecy is outrageous.
This video has not aged well with GW canceling all the first born models
badly implemented, rushed lore, I still hate most things about their lore, especially how they can suddenly make a Primaris with a few decades experience more combat capable than firstborn with literal centuries experience. I dont understand why Primaris officers exist at all... they should all be led by firstborn officers with centuries experience who have crossed the rubicon.
I dont care at all about the miniature side, I dont play with that, I only care about lore, well written character and good stories...
A few of the stories with real violent conflict between the primaris and firstborn are the only primaris stories I can somewhat tolerate, or where the Primaris are clearly the new kid having to prove themselves in a majority firstborn chapter..
They couldn't just update the models?
This video aged like milk in July with the BA update. Mr. Bones you really need to come back to this video as everything you kind of spoke against ended up coming to fruition.
Personally, I liked how the Space marines units were before the introduction of the primaris: the tactical squads as the core, devastators for heavy weapons, assaults squads for closeups. Only a few more special units. Also, I liked the fluff for scouts being only partially marines. The primaris brought a lot of new units and broke that sense of a space marines being super flexible, and remind me more of how eldars use hyper specialized units.
Also, I hate how primaris grav vehicules look, grav vehicules give the impresion of being fast but fragile, which has sense for a land Speeder or even some Tau or Eldar vehicules. But a grav Land Raider? And the primaris jump packs are so lame compared to FB.
I dunno, it doesn't have the feeling. + Of course the fear of making all my minis useless
8:59 Tzeentch worshiper sighted, open fire!
My problem with Primaris marines is how the mainline infantry are pretty much ripped off from Starcraft 2 Terran infantry:
Intercessors are just more varied Marines
Inceptors are better armored Reapers
Aggressors are balanced Marauders/Firebats
Feels like Blizzard suddenly got blocked out of their primary units too (And yes, I know that's more of Activision squandering Starcraft for Warcraft and CoD fantasies, than anything)
I feel like if primaris were just a special unit for an army. Like if they were essentially grey knight hell custodes level marines that could have a small spot in a legion due to how long they take to be made could’ve been cool.
Lore:
Objectively bad lore that was so poorly implemented it makes an AC ducktaped to the top of a shitboxmobile look professional.
Models:
The definition of bland and boring. They suck the individuality out of the entire army. No customization. Random use of stubbers. Push to generic sci-fi. Completely messes up the marine feel, going from tactically flexible units to everything is specialized. Unit sizes dont make any sense anymore.
no people was upset by the schokingly heretical and badly written lore around some techpriest messign with genes and being better at it then the Emperor. Also people with large SM armies (rightly) feared their old minies would be undermined and eventually unplayeble (which is excatly what happened when they moved all the old marines into "legend")
Well, they did made first born obsolete after all :(
Not all change is good. The Primaris Marines was a bad change, full stop. It wasn't a needed change or a warranted change. It especially hurts as a Blood Angel fan considering 90% of them were killed off. There is NO Blood Angel old guard left past a few individuals like Gabriel Seth. If you want to run Blood Angels, you are FORCED to run Primaris if you want to be accurate. I don't like the aesthetic of the Primaris, and I am entirely convinced G.W. will completely phase out the Firstborn... They've already done half of the work for it.
ah shiiiiit i had never thought of that. Ive not played table top since 3rd/4th edition but always love the books and the few good 40k games we have. But yea dam after the devistation of baal ya right. Gabe Seth was right, Generic Ultramarines with diff paint job. o0o0o0o
@Tigran-Abazyan They are around 90% Primaris...
So the problem isn’t so much the lore, but the miniature enthusiast side? It’s always a balance of profit and appealing the consumer base, can’t please everyone
I don't mind the primaries I just wish they had it where instead of them automatically being on the battlefield at the same rank as veterans from 10,000 years ago and the chapters that received them were allowed to put them through the proper trials and properly trained them they would be magnificent
That and the imperium being somehow fullstrengh because of this deus-ex-machina event made the war of supervivencia lose his bling to me. Why bother loving the struggle when geedubs can pop out of nowere another thing like this for more pounds rushing the writers.
Theyre getting the
welcome to wendys, today is friday, today is your first afternoon/night shift, figure it out or i'll kill you myself :)
I mean, the Primaris often do go through chapter introduction trials, as well as having the gene seed of their parent chapter
This implies veterans arent going through the rubicon operation, becoming primaris and still keeping their rank and title when... that is confirmed to be a thing that is ongoing. Most named characters demonstrate this. The battlesector 40k campaign also shows how 1st born vets are still helping most of the new primaris reinforcements who are all green behind the ears but still show they have the pride and defects of their shorter older brothers.
The primaris DID have to though, my brother there are multiple books like the dawn of fire series where the primaris had to prove themselves to their firstborn brothers to earn their respect and acceptance
Because their armor is far too clean and Because with the classics I can interchange everything.
The one thing I hate about primaris is that they are just squads of just dudes with only plasma or only bolters or only meltas, I wish there where just like primaris tactical squads and that type of stuff
Helmet design. If Games Workshop made a chapter/retconned bullshit reason to have the "Classic cathedral" type of look I think it'd be more widely accepted.
I like that the Primaris are True scale, and some of the kits are exceptionally good, such as the named character resculpts, the bladeguard and the new Black Templars. What I DON'T like about them are where they deviate from the designs of the original kits they're meant to be replacing. The Redemptor dread -while a really cool model- doesn't have the same design as the box naught. The Repulsor looks NOTHING like the Land Raider and should've been treaded instead of hovering.
Everything in the Primaris line looks too modern for what are effectively meant to be warrior-monks and neo-medieval knights. Personally I very much dislike the default primaris helmets and preffer the grimace of the firstborn ones to such a degree that I replace them any chance I get. I'm a firm believer in the original boxy aesthetic for the marines and I won't accept any major deviations from it. Hell, I'm someone who joined in 8th just as the Primaris were released and I'm still against them!
Its so god damn funny that there is just an out of place rhino in space marine 2 cause the devs didnt wanna add the stupid hover pickup truck APC marines have now.
I'm more mad that they made them "primaris marines" in the lore instead of just a model update for the miniatures. To this day I still pretend the whole primaris lore doesn't even exist.
When the new marines appeared, all my excitement for the 40K setting died then and there. Period. I straight-up scrapped everything I was working on and moved to historical wargaming. I’d rather not play catch-up and collect something I can actually enjoy without a monopolist bossing me around.
I'd like the Primaris more if they had the traditional "Angry Tahu" helmet.
I got into Warhammer after the Primaris drop, so I don’t have negative opinions about them. I’m a lore guy, and the lore consequences and drama and opinions that came from it is really interesting to me.
But didn't the consequences just feel a little limited? I'm not versed in all the lore but it always felt like the consequences of primaris were a little small. Yes some chapter's like the black templars killed some of their primaris but at the end of the day the chapters adopted them.
We never saw chapters going the full nine yards, we never chapters outright disavowing them, or declaring them heterical and going rogue or rebelling as a result (as far as I'm aware that is)
With the imperium spilt it would've been interesting if there consequences were a bit more impactful you know
That makes no sense. As a lore guy surely you can see how their sudden appearance out of nowhere was incredibly hamfisted and purely for sales... and as the other commenter pointed out, any possible positive for such a shoddy bit of lore was cut short without any sort of expansion. You have one "rogue" black templar chapter getting rid of their primaris buried in a paragraph of a white dwarf somewhere. That's about it.
@@TEPMARMY I totally agree that their impact should’ve been a bigger in the setting as a whole. I would hope that they fill that in as new lore gets published.
@@clinch4402 Oh yeah, I totally see how it was majorly (and probably only) financial decision. What I’m talking about is that it’s fun to see everyone else in the setting, the ones who care anyway, react to them and give their opinions about them. Both on the loyalist and traitor sides. And as I just pointed out for the previous commenter, I hope that their impact on the setting gets fleshed out more in the near future.
@@clinch4402that wasn’t in a buried white dwarf paragraph, there’s literally a whole book around that
While the true scale aspect is appreciated and some of the models are quite nice, my beef with the Primaris is their background. They came out of nowhere with a distinct mary-sue vibe, and were accepted with minimal fuss by an Imperium that should have seen their presence as heresy of the highest order. And to top it off, they've brought an onslaught of new units that don't seem to fit into the Index Astartes-inspired chapter organisation (eg. 10x companies, each with specific complements of Tac, Ass and Dev squads), which was one of my favourite things about the Space Marines.
Basically the models are nice, but it wasn't worth GW shitting all over the background to introduce them.
I used to like Primaris for the possible Roboute Heresy that was brewing, Firstborn being phased and all.
Then the Rubicon was revealed, meaning everyone gets to be a Primaris and dont give me that shit about high mortality rates on the procedure. As if GW was going to kill any important character in a botched surgery attempt.
There you go for that potential plot, everyone BUT the black templars love Primaris, my primarch daddy likes primaris, my grandma dreadnoght loves them, my apothecary uncle splooges over the prospect of fiddling with their gene spunk. *I wanna be a primaris when I grow up* small firstborn toddlers say at the prospect of any character development.
Every single relevant character that was ever alive in the current setting is or is going to be primaris, remember Calgar who lost all his fucking limbs and was on the verge of mega unalive? Yeah no dreadnoght for him, just graft a new set of balls and give him a dick pump until he grows 4 inches and voila Primaris Calgar, now more tech priest than space marine but also primaris.
Man fuck this, lets just open up all the canned space marines and give them the Calgaris Proceedure.
I really hoped for a plot twist. Like dark angels for example why would they let brand new baby primaris into their inner circle... come on. Fallen and all that. I get that chapters like iron hands would love them since they're basically upgrades but chapters like black templars or some successors shouldn't be cool with it. I totally expected something to happen
Why i hate the Primaris Space Marines? Because it feels like im playing fucking Eldar. A entire faction decimated for profit and people love it. Just burn the Codex Astartes once for all.
Can I just say how I love your so casual about our opinions? Like I know that sounds weird but in this day and age where everyone has to be dead certain that everyone who has an opinion on stuff they like has to be so extra about it, you’re pretty chill.
there is one word I can think of to summarize primaris...
cliche.
If GW said "Hey, we're _finally_ updating the Space Marines line to be true scale. Now they look on tabletop how they're supposed to, and our rules are going to reflect how they're somewhere in between Guardsmen and Custodes." They would've gotten a _lot_ less hate then what they did. Ya, you would've had people complaining, but one of the more common things people were asking for when it comes to Space Marines, for decades, was making the marines true scale compared to Guardsmen.
What they did was "Here's a *new* line of superior figures that are The Future. They're better at nearly everything then what has already existed, them coming in marks us 'progressing' the setting, and we're going to be pushing them _really, really hard_ in everything that we do.". They only pivoted after the sheer amount of pushback that they got.
I'm not a Space Marine fan. Sisters is my chosen army. I was, to put it politely, annoyed with how they decided to roll out Primaris.
Eldar players are just waiting for our range to be finished with being updated. So far it's been really well done.
Maybe the hate had something to do with the fact it was Guilliman, the ultramarine primarch whom the Mary Sue hate applies to as much as his chapter, who brought them into the setting, the fact that Cawl could do things so outlandish for the setting (I mean, if Cawl used the emperor's design to upgrade the marines, why not have made them primaris from the beginning?) And the fact that the face of WH40K is no longer the grim and brutal looking firstborn, but the kind of... Almost noble and hopeful Primaris.
I am probably only speaking for myself since I have only collected a few minis and just kept up with the lore and played the video games instead.
because heavy modifying Geneseed usually goes horriblely wrong and it is mega tech heresy. as for why the company didn't do it well, they hadn't thought of primaris yet. 40k has been around for years not just a few months.
@@memesterjohnson4096 I guess what I'm trying to say is making superER soldiers is kind of silly and GW should have known that it would go down bad. As for the geneseed argument, yeah, the cursed founding should have made Cawl think twice before tampering with an impossibly complex mixture of warp sorcery combined with technology. But hey, it wouldn't be the first time someone who should be below emps in terms of anything makes up something you'd think big E would have thought of before.
Tactical Marines are removed. What was this about Firstborn not being made obsolete?
This may have aged poorly due to old marines having been literally replaced by this point.
I mean, they are making the firstborn obsolete.
I have my issues with primaris.
Let me preface this with the fact that I was introduced to 40K in 8th, my first games used missions from Tooth and Claw using space wolf intercessors. I had fun! I liked the space marines, because I only knew them as primaris. I adored their aesthetic, if they were a bit vanilla. I got into orks, and my father grew his space wolves. But then I saw forgeworld - and oh how pretty the firstborn there were! They were colorful, they had flavorful bits on them, every single part of them had a story behind them! And I realized just how much primaris just… don’t have anything to them. They’re vanilla, and while vanilla is a fine flavor, they missed out on some of the cooler things you could do with modeling. (This was improved with the addition of the Indomitus box, but the issue still remains, and only a few generic primaris models actually have any flavor. In fact, I think they contrast a bit harshly between pre and post indomitus.)
I grew out of favor with primaris. I got into the Horus heresy - and I don’t quite know how to describe it, but it all felt so alive. I have more posing options (because my experience with primaris has been either monopose or having a lack of posing options), and my bits box is overflowing with parts that I have just for playing around with firstborn. Every squad has options! I don’t have to buy a completely different body kit if I want to build some lascannons, I can use the same bodies I have for bolter boys.
I think my biggest problem with primaris is my lack of choice. Every kit is a one and done affair, unless I go bits hunting or 3D print stuff (among other things, most of which are 3rd party options). This isn’t to say that primaris *cant* be flavorful, they absolutely can, but it takes so much more effort to do so. I want them to be cool, I really do, but I just don’t feel it.
Anyways, Ave Imperator, for Dorn, and for Terra!
Honestly, what i hate most about primaris marines, is the name..... "Primaris" sounds like thay SHOULD have been from the first founding, but thay arent......
If Primaris marines were just upscaled Firstborn marines we wouldn't need this video at all.
you're not wrong in the slightest
I enjoy the discourse though
Watch out for majorkill you almost have the exact same gineric title for a video but with a extra question mark.
If you started playing after they introduced primaris you don't get it and you never will.
I started after Primaris were introduced, and I just don't like how their armor looks bland/how their squads are just "all bolt gun" or "all plasma" or "all melta". Tactical Squads are cooler imo bc I like mixed weapons squad, on top of Mk X not scratching the same itch for me as Mk VI armor
@@idc681 based
I'm not into tabletop yet, i really only dived into the lore in the last two years. Someone explained it as "Cawl took the recipe for a Space Marine, and let it bake in the oven for a couple minutes extra".
I need to read the books instead of picking up so much from the memes and lore channels. Then again, the setting is so grand and i don't even know what "first" book to start from anyway. I'm just happy to be here.
The only thing about primaris I was initially iffy on was the helmet because I love my beakies and Aquila pattern. But now I love them and they are my go to space marine design.
Put beaky helmets on primaris bodies. It looks great.
I prefer The big funny screaming faces on The aquilan pattern.
I always loved Mark IV Maximus armor and Mark 10 Is Maximus enhanced.
@@_NutcasE_ idk some mk 4 helmets are cooler than others. The one in space marine is awesome, but like 4 mouth slits vs 6
Cawl; "I (kinda) fixed the geneseed flaw!"
Gabriel Seth; "Put it back!"
I definitely think that there would definitely be chapters out there who would murder the shit out of Primaris as Heresy. I also think that there would be chapters who would never fully accept the Primaris for their differences.
So how many OG Marine models got shoved in to legends so far?
Probably about half and climbing.
yeah okay I get the message, I'm unsubbing. Like when this is the sort of thing you ask and everyone is like bro you're right they're great, you've gone past the event horizon. They're literally space marine space marines.
And for a serious answer - they're far too pure and innocent and they're made with far less of the 'problematic' elements of the Imperium being involved. Meaning they're increasingly easier to turn into unambigous goodie two shoes protagonists of the setting. And I'm just tired to death of that. When we have space marine space marines and everyone's like bro they're great, it's just gone too far
:(
Goodbye
"to turn into unambiguous goodie two shoes protagonist"
but that hasn't happened, it's literally all in your head
I just don't like the helmets . . . I like my grill faces and beakies more. The Primaris helmets just look like any other generic scifi helmet, while the other two are so iconic . . .
The primaris look almost exactly the same as the mk 4 heresy pattern helmet
40K is a weird mixed bag, because inherently it’s a lot more of a sandbox setting then a continuing story, and it had been that way for an absurd amount of time before the Gathering Storm.
I love when Games Workshop does push a narrative forward, especially the setting white one. The first couple editions of Age of Sigmar did that constantly and was great to watch!
But I think you nailed the issue on the head when you talked about people being upset at the models that they paid not an insignificant amount of money for, and put a not an insignificant amount of time into painting and playing with into, being made completely obsolete, or even illegal to play a game. (RIP Night Lords Jump Lords and my friends with brand new Heresy dreads, we hardly knew ye 😅)
Blood Angels veteran here. I loved the Primaris models but absolutely hated the lore... until I saw an opportunity.
And so, during the Sacking of Baal, my successor chapter in lore was slain almost to the man, until Dante and Big G came riding in with the cavalry. Since then, the chapter has been disgruntledly rebuilt almost entirely from the ground up with Primaris, but also has a massive Death company made of all the firstborns who survived the siege but not quite, and is closely monitored by the Sanguinary Cabal.
I get to keep all the cool models while still being able to say, love the models, hate the lore, and my chapter story literally fits.
Also, demand for firstborns skyrocketed during the crazy days of primarisfall. So I sold almost my entire collection and bought a plane ticket to Japan to see waifu back then.
I then bought supercheap Primaris models in Japan and came back and rebuilt my collection.
Feels like I won in the end lol
40k was already dramatic enough. If they wanted to sell truescale Marines, they should have just made truescale Marines.
To paraphrase old Russian propoganda; "Nyet comrade. Astartes is fine."
1.) This video has the best description of Belasarius Cawl I've ever heard. 2.) As some who does not play on table top (only killteam), I HATED primaris when they were released. I still don't really like their aesthetic personally. I think Mark X looks too new and shiny and I miss the old helmet grill, which is why my intercessors almost never wear Mark X helmets. Really digging into their lore and how the primaris marines react to one another and to the old squat marines really made me warm up to them. The fact that they've just been in stasis for thousands of years, means that while they have zero battlefield experience, they still have the great crusade era hopefulness that hasn't been beaten out of them through centuries of constant war. War of Secrets and The Great Work were great books to see that. I have definitely warmed up to them. I could see having a bigger problem if I was stuck with an obsolete army on tabletop. I think my only real issue now is that I wish there was more variety with the models.
My problem with primaris is less with the lore and more with design and how they’re starting to phase out firstborn models with primaris replacements. First, primaris have little weapon squad level weapon options, what I mean is that with tactical, assault, sternguard, vanguard and devastator squads, you have the option to have just anti-infantry weapons or have a few anti-vehicle, or in the case of the latter 3, you can have them all equip anti-vehicle weapons, while the primaris have no such option. Second, they have fewer customization options, this is most apparent in the space marine commander kit when you compare it to the monopose primaris character models. Even in the tactical squad you had the previous weapon customization as well as beakie heads, a gorget for the sergeant, different torso options, and the mk 7 heads even had a bit of variation. Finally, the primaris line effectively led to the end of the box dreadnought and the firstborn sternguard kit. Those are my reasons why I dislike the primaris marines even though I got into 40k during 8th edition.
I find it interesting that tons of characters in the setting had the same reaction to Primaris as the angry fans (calling it heresy to improve upon the Emperor's design)
BUT they also recognise that they aren't doing too hot and don't really have a choice. They DID need reinforcements.
As someone more unfamiliar with the scene, this was a good breakdown. You were fair to each side of the argument without sounding like a fence-straddler, not always easy to do.
They look too clean in my opinion also they are now pumped out as full space marines not going through different aspects of warfare by starting in the scout company all the way to battle line.
So all noobs without the grizzle of vets.
Primaris marines are like when your younger sibling gets everything you ever wanted from your parents but you never got to have.
I like the models, wish there was more customisation, but I think the lores pretty stupid.
Hi Arthur, how goes it? great videos and in depth knowledge of the lore. I have tried my hand at a few black library books mainly ‘Legion’ and the Horus Hersey I believe plus painting a marine platoon ultra marine with the help of my local store, my brother was into this too. It is fascinating how the lore seems interwoven with historical stories of the past with names such as Baal and Horus to the 40k lore fiction and future and that even adults engage with the brand but I also feel sometimes painting the models they seem a bit overpriced, not sure what other people think of this but I do window shop when I walk past my local store too 😆
Take care, battle safe and have fun brethren
An interesting topic for discussion is the existence of a large group of people who hate the Heresy Horus series.
And I totally understand. Prior to this series, the Emperor and his Primarchs were mythical creatures, a memory of humanity's better times.
And the Horus Heresy, whether they wanted it or not, turned these characters into actors of a family soap opera, and it was pretty much the same under the Emperor like in modern 40k times
I'm one of those people who disliked when they pulled the curtain back on the Heresy. Having all of it be myth, legend, and only told through _very_ unreliable narrators was fun. Having the revisions as to who got stabbed protecting the Emperor during the fight with Horus actually be canon because in lore there's Inquisitonal factions at odds with each other (one is about finding and recording the truth, one is about obfuscating the truth) and the only other accounts are dead, MiA, or fallen to Chaos.
I low key was like "I'm just going to buy Horus heresy stuff and keep my battle force first born". Man...that didn't age well. At the very least I didn't buy into Horus Heresy at all at this point. Dodging bullets boys, stay serpentine.
It's a bit of a double-edged sword. I think the human appetite for more and curiosity means it was always inevitable that the primarchs would be explored further... Not to mention the money they bring.
But the long-dead mythical legends of the primarchs and the emperor, when he wasn't a vegetable, did make the setting so damn cool and feel so unique, dark and deep... Maybe even believable dare I say. And the fact that now the internet is full of clips with some dork explaining Perturabo's favourite breakfast cereal etc definitely means something has been lost.
Awww the loyalist lapdogs had to buy entire new new armies to stay relevant? Aww so saaaaad ***raucous heretical laughter***
I truly hate the Primaris Marines.
2:05 ok so gw is reading ghost of onyx book
1. The justification is goofy and wasn't required, just wait for a new edition and adjust the rules so that it's always been like this, but only since last tuesday.
2. The Grim Darkness isn't the war, it's the slow heat death of civilisation.
No one really minds the primaris marines. Had GW rolled them out as an armor and model update, they would have been accepted over time with no issue. HOWEVER…. GW went with the money grab option and tried to roll them as a whole new breed, F’ing the 25 years of story as they went along. They were on the verge of completely invalidating everything space marine that had come out before and seem to only just notice the fan backlash and pulled back.
But long time players knew the writing was on the wall for the armies as they stood so rather than rebuild, they just walked away.
I’m one of those. I dumped thousands into several armies starting in the early 90s. When the primaris dropped, I knew I would never drop another dollar into marines unless it was at a garage sale. My eye would forever after only purchase the armies that I had forsook in the first place because of marines or because they had not come out, like DKOK, sisters, and squats.
I don’t actually have any hate towards the primaris marines. I actually like them quite a bit.
A friend of mine told me why he wasn't on board with the Primaris, he said cause it wrecked at the start some of the cannon lore. Like originally fixing the gene mutations of the founding chapters. That would mean no more blood angels falling to the red thirst, or space wolves turning into dogs. It got retconned he said. Treat this as a 3rd hand account, I know next to dick about the original Primaris lore. I look forward to your channel videos, you met the niche of being chill and brief about things.
Question. If I scoop up someone's manlet marines can I use them as Votan?
Corpoganda like this should be paid, not volunteered like this