Thanks for having such a very wise guest, whose wisdom includes what next to none of your others have displayed, the courage and modesty to say "I (we) don't know".
Doesn't the simulation idea have the exact same infinite regress problem as the god idea? Eventually you would reach the base-level reality, and where would that have come from?
Free will is just the opposite of imposed will, forced will, or a psychotic will that seems to even go against or conflict with the rest of your thinking.
I think consciousness exists for the same reason theres something, because "nothing" isn't an option. Just as Something is forced into existence due to the impossiblity of "nothing" (because theres no such thing as nothing), consciousness was also forced into existence due to there merely being a would-be void without it. No such hypothetical void can exist forever - there can be a universe without sentience, but only for so long. It will eventually come about.
I read this sentence: "Might virtually every action we perform cause virtually every possible type of future event, echoing down through the infinite future of an infinite universe?", and I wonder: What does all this exactly mean? And it it does, how and where do we find, or ascribe, or invent this meaning? What is "every action we perform"? And what about "every possible type of future event"? How do we recognize or identify an "event"? And that beautiful "echoing", how is it perceived, or imagined, or what? And the "infinite future", etc...We're playing here with sonorous abstract words to which we cannot give any certain meaning, or even illustrate with visual images in our mental space. What remains is " the thrill of considering the most bizarre philosophical possibilities." (And I would suggest that the word "philosophical" is "de trop", quite unnecessary here). We're playing here with words and nebulous, tentalizing concepts and indescribable images, all in all a mental game that activates our pre-frontal cortex and gives us pleasure by stimulating our dopamine systems. A wonderful brain game for growing undergraduates to push them to exercise their neuronal centers. But, honestly, beyond the intoxicating fun of the back-and-forth, has Michael Shermer - a professional expert at playing with bizarre ideas and abstractions - learnt anything real from this discussion?
My hypothesis is that in worse environments, where there is more drug use, violence, promiscuity, etc... you also have more people reacting against these behaviors and becoming religious. In that context religion is very useful for those people to separate themselves from more criminal and sinful people. In a nice upper class liberal neighborhood, you don't really feel any need to have this. Everyone around you is nice and functional and responsible and educated.
A hiker with a heavy backpack? It’s the ‘fat man.’ MIT has a good program for the trolly problem. Character is derived from a word that means to ‘etch.’
Since you are into religion analysis, I'd find it interesting for you to analyze the religion of Judaism versus the state Zionism because there seems to be much confusion, perhaps done deliberately by people with an agenda. Also an update on your views on Israel and the conflict would be in order since I haven't heard anything for perhaps 4-5 months.
I wonder if the answer to the question, how are people unpreturbed by picncing at hangings or the Ordinary Men? Maybe it is that the incidents run counter to our stories we tell ourselves about experience. Our stories don’t quite match reality, though we wish it so. Looking at the cafe wall illusion, I know the lines are straight but I still see them crooked. I want to see our society of humanity straight the repeated stories of how it is not, I’m unwilling and not wanting to accept my story is not true. I like the story.
Also, supernaturalists/deists/dualists/... have completely run out of ideas a long, long time ago. It's just doubled down personal incredulity and willful ignorance that is keeping up their untenable beliefs for them (fingers in ears, going "LALALAA").
Government rulers love the idea of telling us we don't have free will. If you have no free will, then you can give up: free trade, free speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom of choice, free thinking, etc. Clearly if there's no free will, there's no freedom at all and so government can just act to "protect" and "project its will" and all is good.
No, "government rulers" love to tell you that you're on your own and that all your failings in life are entirely your own fault. That's how they avoid accountability to the electorate.
Can you name a government official that is telling you that you don't have free will? Every country I have lived in has officials telling the population the exact opposite: the rich are rich because they made good choices and worked hard, the poor are poor because they are lazy and made bad choices.
To understand how ordinary people can turn into moral monsters, you don't have to limit your study to historical cases; you can just interview IDF members in Gaza.
5:55 to 6:55 - The actively religious donate more to non-church stuff also. 29:23 to 29:49 - Not completely implausible, but then why is it that protests of this magnitude here seem to only occur when it's Jews in the Middle East doing the bad stuff and not when other Middle Eastern nations have done far worse? 1:31:39 to 1:40:27 - Actually there have been documented cases where the NDE person saw things they couldn't have seen, though one could always chalk these up to lucky guesses.
@@frankfeldman6657 Not sure I can post a link, but I can cite a book. See Melvin Morse's _Closer to the Light: Learning the Near-Death Experiences of Children_ (e.g., pp. 50-51 of that book).
There seems to be an overall desire of all humans that for consciousness we all want Bliss.This being temperted by Ethics. What is the mechanics of that?
Thanks for having such a very wise guest, whose wisdom includes what next to none of your others have displayed, the courage and modesty to say "I (we) don't know".
Thanks for the great content, Dr. Shermer. I'm enjoying this guest a lot more than the imam guy 🤣
Or how about the Mormon Yale psychiatrist. Haha. Shermer has far more patience than Dawkins, Hitchens or Krauss. Too much patience, even.
Doesn't the simulation idea have the exact same infinite regress problem as the god idea? Eventually you would reach the base-level reality, and where would that have come from?
Free will is just the opposite of imposed will, forced will, or a psychotic will that seems to even go against or conflict with the rest of your thinking.
I think consciousness exists for the same reason theres something, because "nothing" isn't an option. Just as Something is forced into existence due to the impossiblity of "nothing" (because theres no such thing as nothing), consciousness was also forced into existence due to there merely being a would-be void without it. No such hypothetical void can exist forever - there can be a universe without sentience, but only for so long. It will eventually come about.
@@ode_to_apathy No.
viciously circular
I've never heard the naturalistic fallacy expressed so concisely, lol.
Moral philosophy: Treat others the way that you would like to be treated. The rest is just commentary.
Would that rule apply to masochists?
Treat others the way THEY would like to be treated. That's called empathy.
@@aslamtu Would NOT hurting the masochist be the greater cruelty they seek?
What if you're a masochist.
I read this sentence: "Might virtually every action we perform cause virtually every possible type of future event, echoing down through the infinite future of an infinite universe?", and I wonder: What does all this exactly mean? And it it does, how and where do we find, or ascribe, or invent this meaning? What is "every action we perform"? And what about "every possible type of future event"? How do we recognize or identify an "event"? And that beautiful "echoing", how is it perceived, or imagined, or what? And the "infinite future", etc...We're playing here with sonorous abstract words to which we cannot give any certain meaning, or even illustrate with visual images in our mental space. What remains is " the thrill of considering the most bizarre philosophical possibilities." (And I would suggest that the word "philosophical" is "de trop", quite unnecessary here).
We're playing here with words and nebulous, tentalizing concepts and indescribable images, all in all a mental game that activates our pre-frontal cortex and gives us pleasure by stimulating our dopamine systems. A wonderful brain game for growing undergraduates to push them to exercise their neuronal centers. But, honestly, beyond the intoxicating fun of the back-and-forth, has Michael Shermer - a professional expert at playing with bizarre ideas and abstractions - learnt anything real from this discussion?
My hypothesis is that in worse environments, where there is more drug use, violence, promiscuity, etc... you also have more people reacting against these behaviors and becoming religious. In that context religion is very useful for those people to separate themselves from more criminal and sinful people.
In a nice upper class liberal neighborhood, you don't really feel any need to have this. Everyone around you is nice and functional and responsible and educated.
A hiker with a heavy backpack? It’s the ‘fat man.’ MIT has a good program for the trolly problem.
Character is derived from a word that means to ‘etch.’
Great guest, great topic!
Since you are into religion analysis, I'd find it interesting for you to analyze the religion of Judaism versus the state Zionism because there seems to be much confusion, perhaps done deliberately by people with an agenda. Also an update on your views on Israel and the conflict would be in order since I haven't heard anything for perhaps 4-5 months.
I wonder if the answer to the question, how are people unpreturbed by picncing at hangings or the Ordinary Men? Maybe it is that the incidents run counter to our stories we tell ourselves about experience. Our stories don’t quite match reality, though we wish it so. Looking at the cafe wall illusion, I know the lines are straight but I still see them crooked. I want to see our society of humanity straight the repeated stories of how it is not, I’m unwilling and not wanting to accept my story is not true. I like the story.
Feels to me like these talking points have made zero progress since my days of reading Douglas Hofstadter.
Also, supernaturalists/deists/dualists/... have completely run out of ideas a long, long time ago.
It's just doubled down personal incredulity and willful ignorance that is keeping up their untenable beliefs for them (fingers in ears, going "LALALAA").
Government rulers love the idea of telling us we don't have free will. If you have no free will, then you can give up: free trade, free speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom of choice, free thinking, etc. Clearly if there's no free will, there's no freedom at all and so government can just act to "protect" and "project its will" and all is good.
You clearly don't understand free will.
No, "government rulers" love to tell you that you're on your own and that all your failings in life are entirely your own fault. That's how they avoid accountability to the electorate.
Can you name a government official that is telling you that you don't have free will? Every country I have lived in has officials telling the population the exact opposite: the rich are rich because they made good choices and worked hard, the poor are poor because they are lazy and made bad choices.
To understand how ordinary people can turn into moral monsters, you don't have to limit your study to historical cases; you can just interview IDF members in Gaza.
yes, Hamas is pure evil
shit! Hamas is evil got censored. fuck!
8:35 maybe 'diversity' causes these problems. Is anybody allowed to study that?
👍
You can believe in a universe of mass complexity, but not a meat brain that does thinking/calculations/predictions which is rather obvious.
5:55 to 6:55 - The actively religious donate more to non-church stuff also.
29:23 to 29:49 - Not completely implausible, but then why is it that protests of this magnitude here seem to only occur when it's Jews in the Middle East doing the bad stuff and not when other Middle Eastern nations have done far worse?
1:31:39 to 1:40:27 - Actually there have been documented cases where the NDE person saw things they couldn't have seen, though one could always chalk these up to lucky guesses.
Actually, there has not been one single instance of the latter. Post a link, a reliable link. Good luck with that.
@@frankfeldman6657
Not sure I can post a link, but I can cite a book. See Melvin Morse's _Closer to the Light: Learning the Near-Death Experiences of Children_ (e.g., pp. 50-51 of that book).
Considering that all we have ever experienced is consciousness, the idea of chance is actually supernatural.
There seems to be an overall desire of all humans that for consciousness we all want Bliss.This being temperted by Ethics. What is the mechanics of that?