Robert Sapolsky: The Illusion of Free Will
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2023
- A message from Lawrence:
I have been a fan of Robert Sapolsky’s for a long time. He is a creative force, with wide ranging knowledge, from primatology to neuroscience, and he is also a wonderful expositor of science. His previous book, Behave, was a wide ranging exploration of human behavior, at its best and worst. I have been wanting to do a podcast with him for some time, and the launch of his new book, Determined, gave us the opportunity. I got an advanced copy and we recorded this a few weeks ago, so that this podcast could post on the book’s publication date.
Had it been anyone else, I admit I wouldn’t have bothered to go through the book. I have long felt the issue of free will is overplayed. The laws of physics are deterministic, and since biology and chemistry are based on physics, I have never doubted that free will is an illusion, but have also felt that for all intents and purposes the world we live in is indistinguishable from a world with free will, so we should take responsibility for our actions.
As is often the case when reading Robert’s works, my view has now become more nuanced. His book masterfully discusses the neurobiology behind the illusion of free will, what actually interests me the most, and he effectively demolished claims of numerous philosophers, including Dan Dennett and others, that some magic occurs between the level of neurons and the level of the full brain that allows for some uncaused behavior.
Along the way, we are taken on a masterful and fun ride through modern neurobiology. And at the end, Sapolsky confronts the more serious question of crime and punishment in a world where free will is an illusion, and convincingly argues that in a world where bad luck early on gets multiplied throughout ones life, society can far more effectively and honestly deal with crime by abolishing the notion of punishment, replacing it with behaviorally more effective methods.
In our podcast, as we always do, we discussed Sapolsky’s origins. What got him interested in science. How did his 30 years working with primates impact on his view of humans, and more. I found it a fascinating discussion, and I hope you will too.
Full Episodes Playlist:
• Ricky Gervais - The Or... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Nice of Robert Sapolsky to drop in to listen to Lawrence (wink)
I like Schopenhauer’s dismissal of free will “We do what we want but we do not will what we want”.
i love that quote, the version i have:
man can do what he wills
but he cannot will what he wills.
New studies in various fields show this isn't true. That the brain is a transmitter and a transducer. This is in fact how the placebo effect works and it works in about 30% of people. You can't just will by wishing, you must believe that thing to be true to your core.
You mean do not will what we do, meaning the outcome is not our will. is like the guy who shoots someone five times thinking he did the job but the guy survives
Didn’t he kill himself?
That is just semantics. We know what we mean by free will, if Schopenhauer wants to distort that just to perpetuate the illusion that there is no free will, he's welcome to do so but it's up to the individual to dismiss his dismissal.
I had an epiphany a while back that free will doesn't exist. It changed a lot for me. Years of guilt and angst and regret was washed away, and I feel much better. Helped with depression and anxiety in a very real way. Seems to me that religions tout the idea of free will to make one responsible for their array of sins and the like. I haven't believed in any religious idea since I reached the age of reason at 8, but the idea of free will stuck around until lately. It's just such a ingrained thing that we take for granted. No more!!
Psychological suffering often manifests as guilt, blame, pride, worry, anxiety, along with expectation and attachment to particular outcomes, all of which stem from a deeply ingrained belief in personal doership and a misconception happiness is be found in the flow of life.
You ARE responsible for your sins (or more accurately - mistakes). I feel for you because ALL religions are the cause of a lot of the misery on the planet. They ALL teach an altered and perverted message from their Scriptures in order to put Fear into their followers in order to control them. Even Jesus said " Woe unto ye Pharisees. You are supposed to lead the people to God". They didn't then and they don't NOW.
It's a long story but I have been blessed and ordained by God Himself. No need to feel guilt. In fact, God says that our only two best friends are Love and Awareness. Our only two enemies are Fear and Guilt. Maybe an experience of mine years ago will help .
One day I came across some writing that said "Only God judges me". I was immediately and strongly urged by the Holy Spirit to respond to this and so we wrote " Wrong. God does not judge, nor condemn, nor punish. God is only UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. It is man who judges, condemns, and punishes. God is not cruel. It is man who is cruel".
You see, what man calls sin God calls mistakes and mistakes are not dealt with through punishment but are rather offered the opportunity (as may as is needed) for correction. This is a large part of what reincarnation is about.
God is not what religions say He is. I am a human who makes his fair share of mistakes. In the 16 years now that I have been having a very close personal relationship with God - He/She/It has shown me NOTHING BUT Love and Humor. Have I ever got stories about His Humor.
God wants a personal relationship with each and every one of His children. I advise people to seek Him. It says how in the bible - with ALL of your heart, mind, soul,and strength. It's so much better to get the Truth straight from the horse's mouth rather than having lying middlemen ( church leaders) between you and God.
God has revealed to me that, even though Scriptures have been altered, He has protected important stuff such as how to get close to God and many of the words of Jesus. Being close to God is AWESOME.
In January 2008 He gave me a job description that says " I am sending you out by the power of My Spirit to Release those bound by Fear, to Proclaim Forgiveness, and to show Love to ALL men". Ironically, even if I don't like you it is necessary that I Love you. If you have ANY Fears please call upon me. I enjoy my job and, with God's help, I am very good at it. God's 3rd Desire is that "Life be an experience full of Joy and never-ending expansion.
Bless you 🙏❤️
@@garychartrand7378 Your perspective on the role of religion, God, and personal responsibility is quite comprehensive and offers a lot to consider. I appreciate your emphasis on love, awareness, and the absence of judgment from a divine perspective. However, even if one believes that free will is an illusion, it doesn't negate the concept of responsibility within the societal framework. Whether one's actions are pre-determined or not, they still have consequences that one must face, both socially and legally. The idea that we are not the 'doers' in a deterministic universe doesn't absolve us from the outcomes of what gets done through us. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and adding depth to this discussion.
@@garychartrand7378 Where does the Bible talk about Awareness? I've been wanting to find it for a long time. I know there are things that allude to Oneness, but what about Knowing or Awareness? I can think of one:
Now this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
@@doriesse824 I have to say that I find your question a little awkward. I, myself, am not an expert in any of these things that you mention - and you forgot consciousness in your list. I don't understand why you are under the impression that I could be of help here.
Except for my knowing and sureness about Oneness , I can only give you my best guess about the rest. ONENESS comes ,sort of, in two concepts. 1) that EVERYTHING in the Physical Universe ( including us) are all interconnected. Makes sense easily if you consider OUR sun going nova. We obviously would ALL be affected. If a distant star(or sun) went nova , it would still affect us as the Universe would no longer be the same. 2) "I and the Father are ONE". WE are all ONE. If one of us is hurt, we are ALL hurt. If one of us helped , we are ALL healed.
Awareness? I am not a bible expert in that I cannot quote where to find each and every bible fact but I have a very good general sense of most things that are in the bible - not that that really matters. Some people believe that everything in the bible is truly the word of God. It's not true. Much of the Scriptures (of ALL religions). have been modified and altered by the church leaders in order to put the Fear of God into their followers for the purpose of controlling them. There is NOTHING at all to Fear from a God who DOES Love you (us) UNCONDITIONALLY. Even Jesus said " Woe ye Pharisees. You are supposed to lead the people to God". They didn't then and they don't NOW. As for the accuracy of the bible God did reveal to me that He has protected any of the important stuff such as how to get close to God ( with ALL of your heart, mind, soul, and strength) and much of the words of Jesus. What people need to do is to use discernment in order to know if what is said is coming from God or from some other source. If it contains the Highest, the Clearest, and the Grandest then it is likely from the Father. The Highest always contains Joy. The Clearest always contains Truth. The Grandest always contains what is called Love. If any one of these are missing then the message is not from God but from some other source.
There's so much that I could say ( books worth) and this is not the proper place or time. What is important is in my job description from God that says I am sending you out by the power of My Spirit to Release those bound by Fear, to Proclaim Forgiveness, and to show Love to ALL men". Does that sound like somebody to be afraid of. In my close personal relationship with God for 16 years now He/She/It has shown me NOTHING BUT Love and Humor even though I am a human who makes his fair share of mistakes. Most people call mistakes "sin" . ALL sins are considered mistakes by the Father. Like I said , I have much to tell the world. Thanks to religions, people have a very wrong idea about God.
I advise everyone to forget about the lying middlemen (church leaders) and to develop your own personal relationship with God. It's what He wants - to be personally close to ALL of His children. If YOU get close to God then YOU can get the Truth straight from the horse's mouth yourself. This I have experience of and I am as sure of as consciousness - "I AM"
I seem to have meandered off topic. As I said, I'm not sure of what you really wanted in your comment. God hasn't called me home yet. You can still contact me again if you wish. 16 years ago I asked God if I could leave this life. He actually answered me in words. He said " No Gary. You are only just beginning". I was planning on leaving even if God should say no "somehow" but I experienced a miracle. As soon as I heard His words - ALL pain left me and I was instantly filled with peace, joy and bliss that is impossible to describe in words. I have other miracles performed through me with WITNESSES and many more without witnesses. NOBODY can tell me that there is no God. Impossible! Non-believers have it so WRONG.
Anyway, have a great day ( and life). Bless you 🙏❤️. At your service, Gary.
PS: I just read your email again and I can add that I know of no place in the bible that mentions Awareness or Consciousness . They are modern psychological terms. You must know that they are closely related even though they are both presently in the arena of speculation.
I do know something about KNOWING. Knowing comes from the Truth - of your experiences. Experience is why you are born into physicality. In God's realm there is only KNOWING (God's Truth). This was not enough. God knew that He was God but He wished to know what it FEELS like to be God. Feeling requires experience - how do you Feel about any particular experience. ALL is ONE and so God is able to FEEL what it is like to be God IN, AS, and THROUGH us ( his physically endowed Spirit children). Hope that helps. 😃
Lawrence,
I am thrilled to see Professor Sapolsky as a guest on your podcast. Like so many, I first became aware of Sapolsky through his excellent online Stanford lecture series on Psychobiology. At first watch, I was hopelessly hooked by his astoundingly wide breadth of knowledge, charming wit, inspiring humility, and clear way of communicating quite difficult concepts. These lectures made me better aware of the biological underpinnings of all human behavior and how environment and neurobiology interact to influence one's psychological profile. Further, they made me more understanding, less judgmental, and even slightly empathetic of those highly damaged persons who have caused me some harm in life. For this, I owe the great Professor an immeasurable deal of gratitude.
Glad you had the opportunity to talk for so long with one of the greatest and most fascinating intellects of our time! A conversation such as this could've gone on for two hours more, and I would've been glued to the screen for its entirety all the same
Regards,
Ryan
I couldn’t agree more. You took the words right out of my mouth, in much better form I must say🫵🏽👍🏼🌹
Yes, he's a very excellent biological psychologist but he is a pretty terrible philosopher
Great comment, Beautifully expressed.
Sanford lecture series, could you link?
It had to happen. It wasn't free will.
Lawrence had to take control of his own public life.
He couldn't let somebody else control his personal contributions to the world video library.
Had lunch with him at USC almost two decades ago. Courteous. Generous. Kind. Listened to my blowhard colleagues with care. Treated our server graciously. Rarely talked about himself. Answered questions with candor and asked questions of those of us who lacked his fame and intellect. Wish more people were like him.
yes, nevertheless the opinions of ppl with 2 second attention spans (based on neural correlate monitoring) regarding the mind are as relevant as the opinions of folk astronomers regarding astronomy. ie, cease speaking.
I wish there were more people like him. It’s a pity that nobody can choose to be like this; that there’s no free will.
@@5piles can you say that again, i sort of zoned out halfway through.
this is an easy veneer to have with practice. someone who doesn't think free will exists is going to have serious issues underneath. or is dense. or is lying about thinking it doesn't exist.
Saying that past determines the future is like saying that the tail is wagging the dog :D.
There is no past and no future. There is eternal now. When bigbang happened, it was now. And is now now.
Fascinating! I’m grateful that my lack of free will is preventing me from logging off and making dinner.
Your stomach might protest, it's not like it had a choice either.
😂
Even your thought that it's your lack of free will which is preventing you from logging off is itself an illusion lol
yes yes yes yes yes. :)
@@MrQuadcity what about a hunger strike ?
The smell of books read when I was a kid...somtimes I talk about that to my grandchildren.
Unforgetable.
Great pleasure to listen to discussion.
Thank you very much.
Buy old books and let them smell them.
You did not grasp my point.
By the way, I am old enough to to have a library books as old as I am.
Books develop empathy, compassion and thinkig.
Buy some and read, please.
Thank you for getting prof Sapolsky. Ive consumed many of his books. His time in Africa is legendary.
this is great, two white men, however academically endowed, discussing free will, while a mass extinction is going on.
Now place a silly heart zombie turds of late capitalism
My favorite parts are the places where Lawrence doesn’t cut Robert off when he’s about to elaborate.
😂
Despite my interest in Sapolzky, the supercilious and vain Mr Krauss forced me to stop listening!!!
Terrible podcast!!!!!
I think they both compliment each other very well. It's a convo between two friends and that is one of the things that makes it interesting
@fndngnvrlnd
I agree...he's to intrusive!
Totally! Verging on narcissism....
Robert Sapolsky is another level. Great choice of guest
Great and lowly are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
I’ve only become aware of him and his work recently but his lectures/talks are irresistible.
There was no choice, only physics.
easily one of the smartest people around
@@1PrinceWilliam I just became aware of him also . Unlike you, I tried to tolerate his nonsense as much as I could stand. I find him lacking in intelligence and very resistible.
I love his mention of going to the Natural History Museum as a child and loving it! It really hit home. When I was a child, my father and I would often visit the Penn Museum of Archeology and Anthropology. It was my favorite museum and I loved hanging out with my dad. It's truly remarkable how the little moments in our lives can have such a profound impact. I am now a biological anthropologist! 😉 Robert Sapolski is brilliant and so plugged into the human condition. Been following his work for years now. Fantastic interview!
Great conversation, what made me subscribe was hearing Lawrence say he went vegetarian having understood the argument for it, making that vital link between knowledge and behaviour that most people ignore
His vegetarianism is the only things that I disagree with him. Lol
@@sylviaowega3839 yeah, why even bother eating if you're not being cruel, right?
I love a conversation that cracks my mind open. This is one. On top of all you said about why we should be honest about free will: The truth is too lovely to hold back. 🙂
I'm guessing here. You are an atheist aren't you. No believer could possibly believe his dribble. I welcome a debate with you. I am not a believer. I am a KNOWER and understander of Free Will. I dare you. I KNOW, without a shadow of a doubt, that God and Free Will exist. It's only non-believers who are capable of believing this crap. I would love to tell you the truth. It just occured to me recently that this man is what has been called a Deceiver.
Before you may decide to engage me I should offer you full disclosure. I have been having a very close personal relationship with God for 16 years now. He/She/it has performed miracles through me with WITNESSES and many more without witnesses. In January 2008 He gave me a job description that says " I am sending you out by the power of My Spirit to Release those bound by Fear, to Proclaim Forgiveness, and to Show Love to ALL men". Ironically, I don't have to like you ( or Mr. Sapolsky) but it is necessary that I Love you. Bottom line is that NOBODY can tell me that there is no God or the Free Will that is essential for the proper function of God's Perfect System.
Want to debate? Maybe your mind really is cracked
Long live! Robert Sapolsky
Thousands of years ago, these two would have been considered prophets after society felt the effects of the implications of these Abrahamic-World-shattering facts, which they would again couch in some sort of theism.
I met Lawrence at a lecture and book signing. He was super kind and thoughtful. I love his passion and dedication. A powerhouse and giant of the sciences.
What a profound conversation. This resonated with me at so many levels. I truly believe, knowing objectively how the world works is the only way to get rid of biases that have been bogging us down for so long. The best thing we can do is We can only change ourselves.
And how do you do that if you have no free will?
@akelaforte3520 absolutely agree. There is no utility in their definition of free will.
With neuroplapsticiry but only in a world that is just & isn't enslaving & meritocratic.
> We can only change ourselves
Stoicism ended in Christianity. Do you think it will be different this time?
“I want you to elaborate on…” and then proceeds to not allow Robert to elaborate on anything. Lol. Let your guest complete a thought Dr. Kraus. 😅
It seems the guests are there to give Lawrence material for future name dropping. They are usually referred to as “friends”. He’s starting to remind me of Larry King!
You are so right. Krauss gulps his guests’ time.
I was thinking the same thing and then I came across your comment so I'm not the only one that thinks he talks too much let your guests speak😢
He never seems to realise this. He probably desn't read the comments !
7 minutes in before Lawrence allowed his guest to say a few words
This is one of the kindest and most beautiful conversations I've ever seen. Thanks Lawrence for demonstrating such a way of being and showing Robert so well. Peace and strength to us all.
?
What an absolute joy this conversation was!
The distinction between predictability and determinism is priceless. That no law of physics is universal is a stunning corollary. The level of discussion is as excellent - as informed and well argued as I have had the joy to witness. ❤️
These are very old ideas and distinctions. I do not expect the uneducated 9at least in these matters) public to know this, but the charlatan (i.e., Sapolsky) is in a position to make his sources known (assuming he actually knows? We could ask the demon).@@JoePalau
What a privilege to be allowed to enjoy this conversation between the both of you 💗 thank you!!
A wonderful thing,❤
Chaotic systems are not predictable, but they are deterministic!
riigghhttt
Just ordered the book. FWIW, Behave is my most favorite biology book of all times. I do own two hardcopys - one to give friends to read and my very own, with lots of marks and comments in it. Whenever I reread it, there is new stuff to be discovered. So I am looking so much forward to reading Sapolsky's newest work!
what's so good about behave
@@pedestrian_0 Read it, or at least read the reviews, and you will know.
As Austrian in Vienna I'm very proud of Anton Zeilinger (quantum physicist, Nobel Price 2022), Siegmund Freud (Psychoanalysis), and Mozart and Co - so I have three remarks to make and to ask one "personal" deliberation:
1) Zeilinger says: in the quantum world is "blind chance", and therefore "the universe is NOT determined"
2) Freud says: "The ego is not a master in its own house" because of the unconscious mind - but with help we can become aware of our unconscious mind
3) Musicians go the opposite way: they practice really hard, so that the musical skills becomes their "second nature" - they want to be in the "flow" without the cerebral cortex
4) Isn't my whole brain "me" - so if something in me reacts before I'm aware of it in my cerebral cortex - isn't that still "me"?
what you experience is the result of the brain's function.
Meaning, your perception, your entire existence, is a _subset_ of what the brain does. Also, being a result, you have no way of influencing anything. You certainly feel like you make choices, decisions, but that's just it. You only feel you are making a choice. The choice has been made already.
Your existence is that of an observer and nothing more.
I would do anything for Sapolskys view to be the mainstream default position. So much hatred and cruelty and suffering could be avoided. We could really build a society around an ideal of understanding and uplifting everyone regardless of who they are or what they’ve done and treating each other with kindness.
Well said. Especially now when there is such enormous divisiveness and hatred everywhere.
The sentiment of all dictators.
@dharmaqueen7877
? Sorry I’m not sure I understand what you mean. I didn’t mean I wanted to force my value and beliefs onto every one regardless of consequence to them and their well-being. Just that I think it would be immensely positive if people had this perspective the same way I think it would be immensely positive if everyone was not racist.
@@ataraxia7439 You did say you would do anything for his point of view to be the default. Did you not mean it?
@@dharmaqueen7877 Sorry for this misunderstanding. It's a phrase in my culture that doesn't mean literally anything. I would do a lot for it though loll
He was in an interview once (which I had to watch because I love his books and lectures so much) and he said: of course I live AS IF I have free will… I make lists etc.
I was SO grateful. Of course we perceive ourselves to have will (not much free about it), but daily I pretend to have free will. It’s a necessary delusion (for me at least). I can’t wait for this new book!!! Yay - it’s on audible, boo it’s not narrated by him!
The atheists' conclusion. That you're nothing in the vastness of the universe and just a cog on the wheel of time.
Your free will is expressed in all the mistakes you make, which atheists never stop making.
On the other hand, when you hear and listen to the frequency of your intuitive soul guide, you might eventually learn to strike a balance between your own will and earths plan. The earth is as alive as we are. God is underfoot. Not vengeful. Nature itself is blind without our eyes as its witness. The scales always revert to the mean. Civilizations crumble for a reason. You're welcome.....
@@gmw3083Rational materialism is their god. Unfortunately what they fail to accept is reality isn’t rational.
@Earthad23 Yup. Reality is blind without our witness. But the majority, including these two, have chosen to double and triple down on their blindfolds. The science is safe n effective...
@@gmw3083 yeee right. Lay off that crack mate.
@SQAProd Lay off the science. Oops, too late....
I’ve followed both of the two of you and watched most of prof. Sapolsky and prof. Strauss lectures on line. I can truly say that I love you both!!!
Thanks for all you’ve contributed and done!!!
Krauss
The benefit to be derived from this ‘no free will principle’ is the dismantling of the two most pernicious personality constructs in human cognition; the guilt complex and the resentment obsession. To the extent it can be made to operate psychologically it will free the individual from the need for the resolution of these pathologies.
I read his primate book. It was actually really great. His humor and intelligence made a book i would never normally read incredibly rewarding. Ill definitely read more. Because that was his first book so hopefully they just kept getting better. Yet theres no denying that he doesn't know his superiority and it might affect his language in his next books but I'm guessing not just based on his still long hippie type hair which i know isn't the best thing to base this on but if you read his first book you would understand why.
He is a genius. That's the best opening statement of absolute truth I've ever heard
What is his genius? Is it that he is ready to forgive criminals, but cannot understand his own statements? Personally, I do not believe that a person does not have freedom of choice. But that’s exactly what Sapolsky thinks, right? So why then does he consider the criminal innocent, and convinces me otherwise? So, according to Sapolsky, I do not have freedom of choice and I am doomed to believe that freedom of choice exists. Is not it? And I’m generally ashamed of Lawrence Krauss, I didn’t expect this from him.
@@jonnySkv
"I do not believe that a person does not have freedom of choice. " The obvious question is why do you believe that? What method do you use to establish belief? Does scientific evidence and rational conclusions drawn from it influence your beliefs, or do you simply pick a belief that you find appealing and disregard evidence against it?
If you want answers to your questions read Sapolsky's book, or listen to the audio recording. You could very well learn something that changes your belief.
You can read, right? I already explained in the post above. Sapolsky allows criminals not to be punished because they do not have freedom of choice. Right? Why doesn’t he allow me to have my own opinion, since I also don’t have freedom of choice? NEVER! You hear? Never! criminals will not be released from responsibility. It's not me who has to prove anything to you, friend. It’s you and Sapolsky who have to prove something to me, do you understand? Because in reality it happens as I say. And not you and Sapolsky))))@@coachafella
@@jonnySkv What you are spouting is just subjective, irrational nonsense. Can you read? Try reading his book then you may have an actual basis for criticism, rather than uninformed confirmation bias.
What does my opinion have to do with this? The fact that the criminal must be punished is the opinion of all humanity. You are the marginalized ones. I read the book. And this is wild nonsense. I never speak without reading the topic. Do you have any other arguments besides “read a book”? ))))) I give you the essence, and you answer me - “read the book.” I read it! Name any argument from the book - I will destroy it. I've already done it))@@coachafella
1. It is logical to isolate people with “unlucky brains” not for 2-3 years, but for life or until we find a way to fix their brains.
2. It is logical that if a procedure that allows identifying “unlucky brains” is found, all people should undergo it every year.
3. It is logical that “unlucky brains” should be quarantined in advance, and not based on the results of crimes.
Welcome to utopia!
Lets all applaud the viewers who turned out alright if we landed here and appreciate this content.
Thank you a lot for sharing this! Listening it from Russia, can’t wait to read the book. Idea of no free will rather gives a hope that people don’t choose to be evil, but are the victims of many unpleasant circumstances, misinformation and learned helplessness. This reduces hate and intolerance towards those, who intuitively “deserve” this.
Yes, but I still find it impossible to have compassion for Putin. The Russian people lose the most. Why not just lock him away "quarantine " him. Come on Russians!
Thank you for sharing this video, and I appreciate the insightful discussion of Robert Sapolsky's book. I did, however, find myself wishing for more of Robert Sapolsky's perspective on the topic of free will.
The best we can hope to be is a reasonably adjusted neurotic .
🌈🌲🌲Dr. Lawrence, thank you for inviting Professor Robert Sapolsky: “The Illusion of Free Will” THIS PODCST IS VERY EDIFYING + BRILLIANT ~ I must listed 2 it again * * * L’Chaim ~ v. (Toronto ~ Australia)🌲
Sapolsky's views on Free Will is always a treat. Thank you!
notreally. He does not take into account the creation of the universe. So since an undetermined event had to occur in the past therefore determinism cant be true
@@millerstation92 It's true that some aspects of the universe, including its origins, might appear indeterminate or unexplained by current scientific understanding. However, this doesn't necessarily invalidate the concept of determinism in the context of human decision-making and free will.
First, let's address the idea of the universe's creation being an 'undetermined event.' While it's true that the exact mechanisms and causes of the universe's origin are still subjects of scientific debate and exploration, this doesn't automatically mean that the event was indeterminate in a philosophical or physical sense. Theories such as the Big Bang are grounded in physical laws, suggesting that even at its inception, the universe was governed by deterministic principles, though our understanding of these principles might be incomplete.
Furthermore, the nature of the universe's creation - whether it was a deterministic or indeterminate event - doesn't necessarily impact the deterministic nature of events within the universe, especially at the scale of human existence. The concept of determinism in philosophy and science often refers to the idea that every event or state of affairs, including human decisions, is the consequence of preceding events in accordance with the laws of nature.
When considering quantum mechanics and the role of indeterminacy at the subatomic level, it's crucial to understand that even if certain phenomena are governed by randomness, this does not equate to human free will. Randomness, by its very nature, is beyond control and predictability. Therefore, if our decisions or actions were influenced by random quantum events, they would still not be under our conscious control. In essence, randomness does not equate to freedom of choice. Decisions influenced by random events are just as uncontrollable as those determined by strict causality. Thus, whether our universe is deterministic or has elements of randomness at the quantum level, neither scenario necessarily provides a basis for the kind of free will that implies conscious, autonomous decision-making
I love listening to Prof. Sapolsky since I found his videos at the start of the pandemic. Pity that he doesn’t have a bigger presence and more recent vids on YT…
This is changing quickly!!! He is on so many podcasts lately
@@MrRollingEgo UNFORTUNATELY.
Are you referring to his lecture series videos on human behavioral biology…like 24-25 videos from his Stanford behavioral biology class? If not, check them out too. It doesn’t disappoint!
I came to the same conclusions without the videos.
So what have YOU been doing?
Obviously, nothing to help yourself.
That's right!
I said YOU suck.
What are you going to do about it!?
Take my rainforest away?
Take my ocean away?
Huh! Huh! ??
Switch off my computer 🖥...
I dare yah!! I dare yah!
@MrRollingEgo
You don't need them.
Obviously you're not listening to him.
You're just here to show yourself off in the internet group.
You fake person!
We've seen people like you before.
You stop public posing.
Lawrence, I come here not only to hear your guest speak, as many interviews go. I thoroughly enjoy your interjections, thoughts and comments. Any interviewer can line up questions, any interviewer can spoil a conversation with inane talk, but you sir always bring me, atleast, an enjoyable dialogue, and for that I commend you. Yours are always the ones I prioritise. Keep up the fantastic work!!
Seriously if you counted the spoken words of this podcast- just making up the number of 100,000 words, Krause spoke 75,000 of them.
If you were to count the seconds where Prof. Krauss ummed and ahed, it would probably be equivalent to the time Prof. Sapolsky was allowed to react.
@@AthoseyeLawrence should just interview himself for the first half the podcast, and then the guest in the second half. That way we can just fast forward to the second half 😂
Lawrence is behaving like an asshole, I think he is trying to get points by talking quantum mechanics which bring him to the filed where he has some knowledge and can talk endlessly. gimme a break,
I started this while doing chores and wasn't expecting much. I soon stopped my chores and listened to the entire conversation. Excellent topic and discussion. Thanks for sharing this.
I listened for a while with their backslapping congratufest but couldn't wait for them gorging on Great helpings of You Tube to get to the point.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🎵 *La introducción menciona a Robert Sapolsky y su trabajo.*
01:10 📚 *Lawrence Krauss habla sobre el libro de Sapolsky "Determined: The Science of Life Without Free Will".*
03:46 💼 *Se menciona la presión de los padres de Sapolsky para que se convierta en médico.*
09:54 🦍 *Sapolsky comparte cómo se interesó en los gorilas cuando era niño.*
20:10 🧬 *Sapolsky habla sobre su elección de estudiar biología y luego neurobiología.*
23:58 🐾 *Sapolsky menciona su enfoque en estudiar el comportamiento animal y la neurobiología.*
24:14 🧠 *Robert Sapolsky plantea que el comportamiento humano está determinado por una serie de causas, y no hay decisiones sin causa.*
26:16 🧪 *La interacción entre biología, genética, y ambiente da forma a quiénes somos y cómo nos comportamos.*
31:09 🤖 *Sapolsky sugiere que reconocer la falta de libre albedrío puede ser liberador y dar más valor a cada momento de la vida.*
34:55 🤔 *La idea de no tener libre albedrío puede ser difícil de aceptar emocionalmente, pero Sapolsky argumenta que es una perspectiva válida y sostenible intelectualmente.*
44:23 🧬 *Sapolsky destaca que diversas disciplinas científicas, como la neurobiología, la genética y la evolución, convergen en la negación del libre albedrío, ya que todas están interconectadas en la comprensión del comportamiento humano.*
48:11 🧠 *La creencia en el libre albedrío persiste, incluso cuando se reconoce que vivimos en un mundo determinista.*
50:16 🤔 *Definir el libre albedrío a menudo comienza por definir lo que no es, como la noción de que las intenciones son suficientes para demostrarlo.*
52:15 🧠 *Los experimentos demuestran que la sensación de libre albedrío puede ser manipulada, lo que sugiere que es una ilusión.*
56:09 🤯 *La conciencia es un fenómeno superficial, y gran parte de nuestro comportamiento es inconsciente.*
58:52 🌌 *El determinismo implica que no hay factores mágicos involucrados en nuestras acciones, y se basa en leyes naturales.*
01:03:07 🤯 *Nuestra percepción de la libre voluntad puede ser tan poderosa que incluso cuando se demuestra que es una ilusión, muchas personas siguen aferrándose a ella.*
01:05:01 🤔 *La idea de un generador de posibilidades separado del cerebro es una falacia y no resuelve el problema del libre albedrío.*
01:10:13 🌐 *Creer que solo es necesario conocer el presente es éticamente problemático, ya que perpetúa un mundo donde las personas son recompensadas o castigadas por cosas que no eligieron.*
01:12:30 🧠 *Las decisiones que creemos tomar libremente a menudo están influenciadas por factores emocionales y externos, como la belleza o la bondad de una opción, que afectan la activación de ciertas regiones cerebrales.*
01:15:12 🤯 *La biología y la evolución influyen en nuestra moralidad y racionalidad, y estos aspectos se desarrollaron en un contexto evolutivo muy diferente.*
01:19:03 🐭 *Diferentes especies animales tienen sistemas sociales y comportamientos diferentes, incluso en relación con la monogamia o la poligamia, influenciados por genes y hormonas.*
01:21:07 💡 *Nuestro comportamiento y características son el resultado de una interacción compleja entre variantes genéticas y experiencias ambientales que regulan la expresión génica.*
01:26:57 👶 *Las experiencias traumáticas y adversas en la infancia pueden tener un impacto duradero en el comportamiento y la salud en la edad adulta, influenciando la regulación genética y la expresión de genes.*
01:31:34 🌍 *Las diferencias culturales también afectan la biología y el comportamiento humano, como las culturas de honor en comunidades pastorales y la influencia de entornos ecológicos en la religión.*
01:35:23 🤔 *La interacción entre la genética y el entorno es clave para comprender quiénes somos y cómo nos comportamos, y demuestra que nuestras elecciones y responsabilidades están influenciadas por factores más allá de nuestro control.*
01:35:38 🧬 *La cultura influye en las personas y sus creencias religiosas, pero la regulación de los genes y las respuestas agresivas también se ven afectadas por la cultura.*
01:37:16 💡 *Experimento en el que el lugar de origen de las personas influyó en sus respuestas a situaciones de violación de normas y niveles de hormonas del estrés.*
01:39:41 🏫 *La educación pública podría alejar a los niños de las influencias culturales de sus padres para ofrecerles una perspectiva más amplia.*
01:41:04 🤖 *La ilusión de que las decisiones en el pasado podrían haber hecho a alguien mejor en el presente.*
01:45:01 🧠 *El papel del cortex prefrontal en la toma de decisiones, influenciado por la biología y la historia personal.*
01:56:00 🔄 *La neuroplasticidad demuestra que el cambio en el cerebro es posible, incluso en circunstancias desfavorables, a través de mecanismos deterministas.*
01:59:16 🧠 *La gente puede aprender y cambiar, pero esto se basa en la comprensión científica, no en la fuerza de carácter.*
02:01:18 🌪️ *El caos no implica la existencia del libre albedrío; la impredecibilidad no es lo mismo que la indeterminación.*
02:05:18 🧪 *Los sistemas caóticos son deterministas pero impredecibles; no se puede extraer el libre albedrío de la impredecibilidad.*
02:07:02 🌡️ *La segunda ley de la termodinámica, basada en la impredecibilidad a nivel molecular, es determinista y fundamental.*
02:12:30 🐜 *La complejidad emergente no implica la existencia del libre albedrío; no cambia la naturaleza de los componentes fundamentales.*
02:19:08 🕰️ *Los efectos cuánticos son estadísticamente insignificantes y no operan a nivel macroscópico en entornos biológicos ruidosos.*
02:22:22 🧠 *El mecanismo subyacente de la mecánica cuántica es completamente determinista, incluso si las medidas resultantes son probabilísticas, lo que demuestra que la indeterminación es una ilusión.*
02:25:37 🌍 *La ilusión del libre albedrío permite a los seres humanos funcionar efectivamente en la sociedad, pero no es necesario creer en el libre albedrío para actuar éticamente.*
02:28:43 🧠 *La plasticidad neuronal y la comprensión de cómo cambian las circunstancias y el entorno pueden ayudarnos a mejorar como individuos y sociedad sin necesidad de libre albedrío.*
02:42:20 ⚖️ *La retribución y el castigo pueden ser reemplazados por enfoques más efectivos, como el aislamiento o cuarentena de individuos peligrosos, sin la necesidad de considerar el libre albedrío moral.*
02:45:31 🇸🇪 *Escandinavia ofrece ejemplos de sociedades que funcionan de manera ética y efectiva sin depender de la creencia en el libre albedrío moral, demostrando que es posible una convivencia pacífica y justa sin castigos severos.*
02:45:44 🇳🇴 *La cultura escandinava tiene una respuesta racional a la criminalidad, en lugar de desear venganza, buscan evitar que los criminales reincidan.*
02:46:54 🌍 *Entender cómo funciona el mundo es esencial para lograr un cambio real; no depende de la fuerza de voluntad individual, sino de cambiar las circunstancias.*
02:48:50 📚 *Los logros pueden ser reconocidos y celebrados sin necesidad de elogiar a la persona, lo importante es inspirar a otros y reconocer los logros en sí mismos.*
02:54:13 🤝 *La única conclusión moral es que nadie tiene más derecho que otro a que se atiendan sus necesidades y deseos, promoviendo la igualdad y el altruismo efectivo.*
02:55:48 📖 *El progreso implica que en el futuro se maravillarán de lo que aún no sabemos, y la ignorancia es parte esencial de la exploración y el avance continuo.*
Made with HARPA AI
This was the best interview with Robert Sapolsky I have listened to and I listen to all of them I can find. Thank you Lawrence for providing us with your own well thought out questions, support and intellect which provided me with a better understanding of Roberts' beautiful book, 'Determined'.
Robert Sapolsky one of the greatest minds. Always happy to listen him. Thank you for this interview.
As these "great minds" get older, and more talkative, they bask in their own eloquence, and feel they have so much of value to share, branching into philosophy and areas outside their expertise, producing word salad. They love "conversations" over speeches, since the latter would require them to order their thoughts. This is intellectual laziness, running down random tangets.
Lawrence Krauss tried to remember the title of Tim Palmer's book "The Primacy of Doubt: From Quantum Physics to Climate Change, How the Science of Uncertainty Can Help Us Understand Our Chaotic World"
The Lawrence Krauss podcast featuring guests that occasionally speak
That are occasionally “allowed” to speak.
don't blame LK. he can't help it. that's the way God made him.
I grew up on the Time-Life series too. The Nature series and the Science series. They were amazing!
Love your books and lectures online. Accepting determinism can change the world, and I am here for it.
Lol I am reading the comments before watching and you all sound so crazy. You won't change anything, you'll just let what is already going to happen....happen?
@@fuglong not at all. By realizing there is no free will, we can look at things more objectively and solve problems scientifically. Ideas like revenge and blame go out, ideas like understanding and making things better come in.
@@itoibo4208 lmao I guess so, easy way to skip true understanding and actual personal growth. How about you don't hold resentment or judge people because you understand where they're coming from and have grown to feel others pain as your own and give people the benefit of the doubt, and forgive, and/or set healthy boundaries? Sure you can be a weirdo about it, or you could just grow up and try to understand WHY the world got to be this unfair and HOW we can improve it for everyone. A shitty coping mechanism that just makes you feel no guilt or makes you think you're above bias is not a healthy or viable solution.
Behave was a total page-turner. I read that book like it was my first Asmiov. Ty for inserting that knowledge into my brain Dr. Robert.
This was nothing short of excellent. Thank you so much, both to Sapolsky and Lawrence. Enjoyed every single minute of it
I love Robert Sapolsky, what an incredible interview. I think I am going to buy that book as a family gift for Christmas.
I really like this podcast! Robert Sapolsky is a great scientist and philosopher!
An outstanding scientist, but a very poor philosopher, as he demonstrated in this conversation when he commented on Dennett's position (which he completely misunderstood).
Dr Sapolsky, much gratitude and respect to you for pulling all the pieces together, and identifying some very bright lines for the benefit of future generations. Be good ancestors everybody ❤
I wish I could hear Sapolsky talk more than Krauss. 😊
There's a great series of his lectures at Stanford here on the you tubes. All 100% unadulterated Sapolsky.
thousands of hours of sapolsky lectures on youtube. they are game changing. enjoy
Kraus does great job.
Krause does an alright job.
Sapolsky is too charismatic and wise to be compared to anyone.
Thank you for this podcast!
So, fifty minutes into the conversation Lawrence finally asks the question "What do you mean by free will?", Sapolsky completely dodges the question, and they continue to discuss an undefined concept for two more hours. Not what I expected from two of the most renowned scientists of today.
A lot of those talking for a living end up having so much to say that content is thinned out almost to zero.
They can't talk about something that not exist....
It’s undefinable, all the definitions are based on intuition. I feel that alone disproves the notion.
I also liked very much the concept of "science" in place of religion and/or God. The word religion derives from a Latin word "religare", which means to hold back, or prevent further movement. My father was my mentor, I was the 5th of 8 children. My dad was a doctor who brought me into this world. He didn't deliver any of my other siblings. He and I had (and still have ) a connection that knows no bounds. He passed in 2003 at age 92.
To me the freewill issue is a lot like the wave function stuff in physics. There is both freewill and no freewill. You dont choose to be hungry or your favorite things to eat. But you for sure make choices on what to eat at that time. Its kinda like light being a wave and a particle. There is a huge portion of living that is done without your control but there is also things we obviously choose.
Very interesting.. Even though I am a Christian.. I like to hear other peoples views!
Really looking forward to this, I've listened to the human behavioral biology lecture series at least a half a dozen times..
This was awesome. I feel so fortunate to be able to listen to folks such as yourselves while I putter at home. I too feel the idea of no free will so liberating. No longer putting so many demands and responsibility on myself, makes life just so much more carefree.
Soon as I came across this I knew I was in for a gem. I’ve always said, there is no such thing as free will.
What determined you to make that exact and particular comment ?
2 amazing scientists! I absolutely love this conversation. I love the idea of talking about childhoods and what attracted certain ppl to their fields of study
We can affect only past, not future.
It was really lovely to watch them laugh together about Time Life books.
Thank you so very much Mr. Krauss and Mr. Sapolsky. This was invigorating and illuminating
Krauss asks a question. Krauss answers it. Sapolsky eventually is given space to briefly comment.
How true and annoying!
Oh dear me, so wonderful are these two gentlemen. Thank you for making my day with this fascinating discussion.
So wonderful to listen to these two minds in conversation.
Each time i listen to him, even when listening to a talk the second or third time, i increase my understanding.
Responsibility and Behavior: Epigenetics; Evolution, we can change if we want.Thank you Lawrence Krause and Robert Sapolsky for a great provocative conversation.
I've followed this free will stuff since the 80s. I don't think we have free will and can't imagine how we could. It seems like a logical impossibility to me.
Your "logic" lacks imagination.
@@garychartrand7378 sorry, I don't have a choice.
@@Ray-Angel That's sad for you. I DO have choices and lots of it.
@garychartrand7378 you haunt this comment section claiming free will to exist. Do you have some evidence or thought process that leads you to this point?
@@emmettochrach-konradi2785 Obviously I have a thought process - it's called logic and reasoning. As for evidence, we can cover that in a separate exchange if you so wish. It's sort of a lengthier discussion.
For now - logic. As I have stated often, a fundamental reality of whether there's a God or not needs to be established as the base for all perceptions built upon either of the (true?) realities.
In my case , it's a no brainer. I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that God IS.
My perceptions rest on this very fundamental fact( at least a fact to ME).
So (from MY perspective) I kNOW God to be the Creator of ALL things - including US in His image. In our experience of Life all things are made in the image of the parents. Horses produce horses, rabbits produce rabbits, humans produce humans , (or to include the soul) human beings produce human beings.
Even if you don't believe in God, you would have to agree that we are creators. To ME, it just makes sense that if we are the result of a Creator then we also are creators. If you are a creator then Free Will is necessary and absolutely essential for it to be possible to choose what next to create. The only thing that we do not have Free Will about is to not be the creators that we obviously are. The ONLY thing that God cannot do is - to not be God.
If you so desire to know more about my sureness of God you can find it in many of my other comments to others here. Just between you and me, after years of relating my experiences, I am getting tired of it. I have resisted writing a book for the longest time but I am starting to see the merit in it.
I hope that this has been a help. Ask me anything. I am here to serve. Bless you 🙏❤️
53:04 - My biggest problem with neural activity before making a choice being used as evidence for determinism is that a person can just say yeah - I felt the impetus germinating to action potential, so what. For me the clincher is that we live in the flow of time which only goes in one direction and only encounters you, and any moment, in exactly one state, ie. it's an f(x), hence there's no given moment in your life where you would have had the capacity to have 'done otherwise' because there was no impetus.
Thank you Lawrence Krauss for presenting us this brilliant man ! Coming from a french part of the world, I wouldn't had that chance elsewhere..
Fantastic talk.. I also concluded before the end that its altruistic and positive. Lawrence summarised it beautifully, as he also did before 2:25:20. Look at Sapolsky's face. Almost crying.
This is, in my pre determined opinion the most fascinating talk I've heard
We live in the present, reaching for the future, guided by the past and since we can't change the past we also can't change where it leads us.
Yeah, there will always be the present moment. Since we can't control anything in life, having no regrets about the past and no expectations for the future allows us to just sit back, relax, and see what happens. It's like being on a ride that we didn't choose but can still enjoy.
Huh. You obviously don't know who you really are- a very powerful creator. That's sad . A creator has to choose what next to create.
@@garychartrand7378 Thank you for your input. If you delve into the understanding of who you truly are, the concept of 'choosing' from a deeper level may not make much sense. However, on the surface level of our daily lives, it does appear that we choose and create. It's a complex topic, and I appreciate your perspective.
@@MrQuadcity 👍 I appreciate your appreciation. I thank you. Please forgive me if I' m overbearing here but it really is quite simple.
When a baby is born, it's animation is due to a soul - it is an eternal, loving, fearless Spirit that forgets this when it enters reality - this is who you really are. However, the actual physical part of this union has a brain that grows to learn how to survive in the physical world. As a newborn, a baby( in physicality) is at the closest point ever in its entire life to Source (God). It is pure Love. From here this closeness goes downhill. On top of experiencing the veil of forgetfulness the brain develop an identity of seperation that we call an Ego. A baby is afraid of only two things - heights and loud noises. It is the beginning of learning who you 'think' you are. Every experience you have is remembered in the brain and the totality of these memories become who you 'think' you are. Even your experiences today contribute to who you 'think' you are. Ego is a very Fear based entity. It is always afraid that it is not smart enough , not strong enough, not fast enough, not attractive enough ect. ect. On some deep level it even knows that at the moment it's brain "dies" it will cease to be. It's right and that is terrifying.
The reason I have explained this is because it is of vital importance to recognize who you really are (Love) and who you 'think' you are (Fear). Love will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS do the right thing. Fear, however, paralyzes and confuses the mind AND is the source of ALL heartache and misery on the planet. A metaphorical story might further clarify my point. The soul and the Ego travel through life together on the same bus. The problem is that most people let the insane Ego drive the bus - most frequently into the ditch. The solution is for the sane soul to take over the driving and to send the Ego to the back of the bus to be dealt with later. It is impossible to eliminate the Ego. It is needed and does have it's used in life. However, I have found that the fearful Ego can come to trust the loving soul. The result is a quieter and calmer Ego.
Knowing who you really are is the key to creating Heaven on Earth. If everybody recognized who and what everyone else is - The same fearless eternal loving soul as yourself, what a difference it would make. In reality we are all ONE in the Father. Separately we are powerful. Together ( combined) as ONE - We have the power to do ANYTHING. If you hurt, we are all hurt. If you are help, we are all healed.
Too much. Please forgive me but I can't say that I'm sorry.
Peace and love and blessings to you 🙏❤️
Professor Sapolsky is a legend. This was fascinating. I watched the entire thing. Lawrence just needs to shut up more.
Only a legend in his (and apparently your) mind. His ideology is wrong because it is based on an assumption that is not true - that there is no God.
I KNOW that God IS. I have been having a very close personal relationship with God for 16 years now. He has performed miracles through me with WITNESSES and many more without witnesses. If you don't believe in God then YOU have created a reality in which God doesn't exist FOR YOU in spite of the fact that He/She/It DOES exist.
I just posted a comment. Please read it.
Great guest, Robert Sapolsky is on a whole different level. Pinnacle of science, I agree with you, a genius who writes perfectly
This man is definitely one of my living heroes.
This guy is a brilliant mind and a master teacher
Brilliant and lacklustre are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
he learned from the famous philosophical genius known as Charles Manson that we're all just products of society.
I wish you allowed Robert to do more talking. He is a remarkable teacher .
Oh My goodness...I loved this conversation....Really enlightening. The criticality of the role played by Epigenetics was a revelation indeed...
The free will discussion starts 18 mins into podcast
They had no choice.
@@garychartrand7378 they had no choice to give a very superficial and unintelligent discussion as well unfortunately
Phenomenal. This was really engaging and agreeable for me. A much better conversation than when I’ve tried to bring it up to friends lol.
This a great interview. It in fact helped me fortify my opinion that free will is a mere dilution,
and that the entire universe with it’s extreme complexities of our consciousness, quantum mechanics and evolution behave in a deterministic fashion. It is very liberating to be aware that free will doesn’t exist, as it has also liberated me from hate, misunderstandings and help mitigate any urge I have to invoke revenge with those who have wronged me.
If you did feel anger and revenge, wouldn’t that be determined too?
@@elviscotena2046 Yes, it definitely would. Best be aware of if.
Watching you two is like watching night and day, calm and hyper on the same screen.... the stressed and the calm. I learned something about hair folicals and stress back in the 70's. A tight scalp kills folicals a loose scalp... ;)
The Illusion of Free Will: "The book I had no choice but to write"
This, to me, feels like watching two brilliant men talking about the universe and their(our) place in it while in a fish tank that they don't know they're in.
most people seem to think that not having free will is making you a puppet of some kind - but they never think "who is the puppeteer" - it's you. there is a little man inside your head making you do things, but the man is you.
and the other illogic is, "if i am going to eat dinner anyway, i can sit here and doing nothing until dinner time" - you still have to work toward that goal, it's just determined already that dinner will be good or bad.
and i think the confusion for the religious is the word "choose" you don't _choose_ anything, you have options and one (or some) option will be preferred to another - it's not a choice anymore, you will not pick options you don't prefer.
My great hope, for myself personally, is the facts of plasticity and learning. My people were quite obviously pastoral. My ideals surrounding honor, retribution, and aggression have been mitigated through education, which in turn encouraged self reflection and eventually some change and the realization that these overwhelming feelings are not necessarily helpful and often harmful.
It's so exciting and refreshing to hear 2 brilliant minds talking about a fascinating and controversial topic. Thank you both 🙏
Amazing, amazing human being. Both of you. Thanks.
You would be honest and accurate if you just said human. To Say he is a human "being" would be inaccurate. It suggests a soul and he doesn't believe that.
@@garychartrand7378 You are correct, of course. Thank you.
@@pjeffries301 thank you for the thanks. I am curious though . You don't volunteer much information about YOUR "beliefs. What is it about these guys do you seem to admire? Do you not believe in Free Will? Are you an atheist? Your turn!
@@garychartrand7378 My opinions are shallow generally, so I've learned to keep them to myself - but for you: I admire how their brains work, a neuron fanboy. No on free will and agnostic. Wish I had more time to read.
@@pjeffries301 Thank you so much for your response. Your no on Free Will makes sense with you being agnostic. It also becomes understandable why you admire these guys. I wonder if you understand that if you were to get off the fence about God and decided that He/She/It IS - ALL of your answers would be different. From your responses it is possible to deduce that presently your beliefs lean towards atheism. That's a shame because I happen to KNOW, without a shadow of a doubt, that God is very very real.
I declare myself all over different channels but in the event that you have not come across any material of mine - here is a recount of what I've posted even in this comment section. I do not need belief or even Faith. I have KNOWING. I know because of my experiences. For 16 years now God has been interacting daily with me. He/She/It has performed miracles through me with WITNESSES and many more without witnesses. In January 2008 He even gave me a job description (in a miraculous way) that says " I am sending you out by the power of My Spirit to Release those bound by Fear, to Proclaim Forgiveness, and to Show Love to ALL men". Ironically, I don't have to like you but it is necessary that I Love you. For me, it's impossible not to believe in God. NOBODY can tell me that there is no God. I am aware of God's Perfect System (God only does Perfect) which has reincarnation and Free Will as major components.
Those who believe know Free Will. However, most non-believers seem to not believe in Free Will. I am tempted to feel sorry for you but I KNOW something that you do not. Whether you know it or not, or like it or not, you are in the most capable and loving 'hands' in all of existence. We are ALL subject to God's Perfect System. This is the one and only thing of which we have no choice ( no Free Will). The trade off for this is that we get LIFE. Within the System though, we have absolute Free Will. God is a Creator and so are all of His spirit children (US). In order for God or us to decide what to create next - Free Will is necessary and absolutely essential. Too bad YOU have no Free Will hey!
But all is well. Thanks to God's Perfect System, one day or lifetime you will 'GET IT' - but He will NEVER EVER force you to. God will NEVER EVER violate our Free Will because that would be like throwing the proverbial monkey wrench into His Perfect System which would make it imperfect. This He would NEVER EVER do - impossible.
This be enough for now. I know you don't have enough time to read. I pray that you had time for this. I have more than enough for a book - but you have no time to read it anyway. I can tell what God is REALLY like as opposed to the crap most religions push. Or even better, I can show you how to get close to God YOURSELF.
I forgot. You can't. You don't have Free Will. Oh well. Bless you anyway 🙏❤️
I was looking forward to Determined with some skepticism but kept with it, its beautiful writing, often witty, encouraging me on. I'm almost done, seeing the world differently and, as Lawrence says, in a hopeful, upbeat way. Sapolsky's book deserves legendary status.
Those professors are lost.
Saying that past determines the future is like saying that the tail is wagging the dog :D.
There is no past and no future. There is eternal now. When bigbang happened, it was now. And is now now.
Without God you are truly lost. If you are making these poor souls your false gods then surely you are lost with prejudice. I happen to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that God is very real. If you don't believe that's OK. All I will say is " I know something that you don't know". Oh well!
@@garychartrand7378 we can affect only past, not future
@@garychartrand7378 right on, bro. you know what you know and that he doesn't know what he knows or doesn't know or what you know, you know?
@@chuckleezodiac24 Thank you. I grog it perfectly. YOU have the gift of accurate observation. Bless you 🙏❤️
2 of my most admired amazing people on earth... RESPECT❤❤❤
An amazing podcast this time. As a Scandinavian, I believe our legal system focuses on rehab rather than punishment as many of us understand that the criminals are not criminals by their own "free will", they just happened to have bad influences growing up etc. I find it relieving to understand that people's (annoying) behaviour is not intentional, and it's easy to forgive and move on. "Responsibility" is just another word made up by some letters, it doesn't mean anything. Just like animals, our complex behaviour is surprisingly predictable once you focus on the other person rather than just on yourself. But again, it's the complexity that makes it difficult for our brains to predict behaviours so it's easy to just say "free will".
Some people have no bad influences and in actual fact get offered the best of upbringing so I cannot agree with that part of your statement.
Is Trump responsible for his actions and words?
To say it is easy to forgive and move on - it depends what has happened to you.
@@robertpawley5715 a misunderstanding of the premise in my view. While I do accept we have no free will, that in and of itself does not mean we get a free pass on our actions. In my view is that it is appropriate, given the premise, that we remain accountable for our actions even if some would argue about responsibility. My view is open to challenge of course.
@@sula1529that's your opinion. It may look like to you that they had a great upbringing but you are not that person and did not experience their personal relationships with their parents siblings and/or other influential people that may have abused their relationship. Something that even living in the same house you could still definitely never know. You are the type of person that creates systems that construct failing concepts and then say the stupid things like you just said. I hope you never raise any children. The earth doesn't need you to pass on your influence. You are not important enough to be self righteous. Shame on you.
29:05 I went through the same process at this age. It must be a developmental stage shared by some people, though I find it curious how most of my peers were not going through this, and as a teacher now, I see this disparity among students persist to this day.
It is an incredibly lonely and frightening experience. Very few people I've known have experienced this.
When life is all deterministic, how could humans have developed the ability to *think and reason for themselves* about different scenarios, to evaluate personal decisions according to what they invisioned would be the best outcome from their individual perceptions?
@@liloleist5133because in the end, that was all determined as well
Thanks Lawrence, thanks Robert. Great conversation, thanks for sharing.
At 1:47:00 Lawrence says something like: once you realize there is no fairy dust, there is no space left for free will.
My answer: if you define free will as magical fairy dust, of course it doesn't exist. But that is not what free will is. Free will is a physical process of making decisions based on available data inside our heads, undisturbed by other people.
That's not what free will means as used by people and societies in general (" physical process of making decisions based on available data inside our heads, undisturbed by other people" ) . It tends to mean that you are the origin of your behavior and it cannot be related to anything else. You have some thing located within you called "free will'' which is the ''origin'' cause of anything you do. It causes things, but it itself is NEVER caused. Like a God in your brain. That's why you see when people, institutions, societies do something based on the free will idea, they only pay attention to the individual, they work on them, they punish or reward them, without looking into their present environment or historical environment or the structure of the society the individuals functions within, or the wider conditions in which the society exists (weather, terrain, resource availability etc.), most clearly exemplified by what people call a "criminal justice system'' present in all modern societies, but ultimately this type of thinking seems present in most people in all contexts.
And of course they change how much they 'believe' in the concept depending if it's for their benefit or not. When someone has done something 'bad', they tend to go "oh no, it wasn't me, I was forced! I had no choice! " so they are 'excused' from moral, ethical, legal or social circle punishment. Or if they want to benefit from someone else and they themselves don't want to do the work or don't know how to genuinely make another person do it they go : "it's your responsibility! You have the will to do it yourself!". It's quite comedic sometimes.
@@mitkoogrozev "It tends to mean that you are the origin of your behavior and it cannot be related to anything else."
I agree with this definition! It's just that if you're not a dualist, "you" surely means "the real stuff inside your head", not some magical fairy dust in your head. Clearly the two people discussing aren't dualists, so most of the disucssion just makes no sense.
It seems clear to me that entropy and uncertainty preclude free will. Everything that happens, including our emotions and thoughts, happens before we become consciously aware. The pin prick comes before the pain. The future is unknowable due to uncertainty. No human has the capacity to predict the future. Therefore because we cannot change past events due to entropy and we cannot product future events due to uncertainty, it follows that we cannot have any power of free will. Freewill is a useful illusion that mainly helps humans make sense of the world.
I suggest that your observational skills need sharpening.
No human has the capacity to predict the future? So you don't concede that Science is all about prediction? Humans attempt to and succeed in predicting the future all the time.
@@garychartrand7378 Name one thing you have chosen in your life and physics will prove otherwise.
@@mitchkahle314 I am not sure what it is you are requesting. Before clarifying your question - keep in mind that it's not possible to prove the immaterial using material means. Thanks
I just reread your original comment and I now understand your last comment. I now know how to respond to you properly.
As I have stated many times, the fundamental fact that needs to be established is whether or not that God exists. In my reality I have no choice but to believe in God. I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that God IS. Logic based on this Truth is one thing . Logic based on an error will produce faulty conclusions . Your error is that there is no God.
Try to imagine that there is a God and see if this makes sense about Free Will. If God does exist, then He/She/It is the Creator of EVERYTHING including US His children ( made in His image - our souls). Since dad is a Creator then His children are also creators. The thing about creating is that Free choice is very necessary in order to choose what to create next.
I don't think that physics can explain Free Will, or soul or consciousness away. Physics is a fun (and useful) tool for humans but you Atheists seem to elevate it to a false God. Good luck with that. Unlike God, physics is not sentient.
The real problem in this moment of NOW is that you don't believe in God. That's OK. The God that you don't believe in is undeniably real to me. He has performed miracles through me with WITNESSES and many more without witnesses. In January 2008 He gave me (through miraculous means) a job description that says " I am sending you out by the power of My Spirit to Release those bound by Fear, to Proclaim Forgiveness, and to Show Love to ALL men". Ironically, I don't have to like you or what you believe but it is necessary that I Love you.
If there is a God (and there is) He Created a Perfect System (God only does Perfect) which has reincarnation and Free Will as major components. EVERYONE is subject to His System - of this one thing you have no choice (no Free Will). It is a necessary trade off for our existence ( our lives). Within the System we have absolute Free Will to create whatever we wish. You non-believers have no idea just how powerful you are. Sad. It's OK though. Thanks to God's Perfect System and it's evolution of the soul - one day (or lifetime) you will 'GET IT' - but He will NEVER EVER force you to. If God violated your Free Will, it would be like throwing the proverbial monkey wrench into His Perfect System making it imperfect and this He would not and could not do- impossible.
Much more could be said but , to be honest, I'm getting tired of trying to help those NOW that God's Perfect System will eventually take care of anyway - but He will NEVER EVER force you. We are heading to the same place - back to Source (Nirvana, bliss). It's just that there's a faster way. Go in peace brother ✌️
Fascinating and enlightening discussion as always come away with something new.
Just wondering, Mr Krauss, will you have a dialogue with Brian greene as part of this origins podcast in the foreseeable future? You two are my absolute favorites when it comes to science communication and sort of breaking down these concepts for a lay person like myself and I'd love to watch the two of you discuss fascinating scientific concepts and explore each other's origins I know you've been friends for many years and have worked on projects together yeah with the world science festival and stuff
Went through his Stanford lecture series on YT twice. Fascinating and fun.
Phenomenal. Thank you both