Does Humanity Function as a Single Superorganism?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มี.ค. 2024
- The Michael Shermer Show # 410
Could humans unknowingly be a part of a larger superorganism-one with its own motivations and goals, one that is alive, and conscious, and has the power to shape the future of our species? This is the fascinating theory from author and futurist Byron Reese, who calls this human superorganism “Agora.”
In We Are Agora, Reese starts by asking the question, “What is life and how did it form?” From there, he looks at how multicellular life came about, how consciousness emerged, and how other superorganisms in nature have formed. Then, he poses eight big questions based on the Agora theory, including:
If ants have colonies, bees have hives, and we have our bodies, how does Agora manifest itself? Does it have a body?
Can Agora explain things that happen that are both under our control and near universally undesirable, such as war?
How can Agora theory explain long-term progress we’ve made in the world?
In this unique and ambitious work that spans all of human history and looks boldly into its future, Reese melds science and history to look at the human species from a fresh new perspective. We Are Agora will give readers a better understanding of where we’ve been, where we’re going, and how our fates are intertwined.
Shermer and Reese discuss: • organisms and superorganisms • origins of life • the self • emergence • consciousness • Is the Internet a superorganism? • Will AI create a superorganism? • Could AI become sentient or conscious? • the hard problem of consciousness • cities as superorganisms • planetary superorganisms • Are we living in a simulation? • Why are we here?
Byron Reese is an Austin-based entrepreneur with a quarter-century of experience building and running technology companies. A recognized authority on AI who holds a number of technology patents, Byron is a futurist with a strong conviction that technology will help bring about a new golden age of humanity. He gives talks around the world about how technology is changing work, education, and culture. He is the author of four books on technology; his previous title The Fourth Agewas described by the New York Times as “entertaining and engaging.” Bloomberg Businessweek credits Reese with having “quietly pioneered a new breed of media company.” The Financial Times reported that he “is typical of the new wave of internet entrepreneurs out to turn the economics of the media industry on its head.” He and his work have been featured in hundreds of news outlets, including the New York Times, Washington Post, Entrepreneur, USA Today, Reader’s Digest, and NPR.
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A beekeeper thinks we're all bees? That's such a coincidence, my proctologist says were all assholes
Omar , you made me laugh out loud - thanks for that --
the great asshole theory resonates much more.
I read about "Systems theory" around 30 years ago, particularly in the realm of psychology. A system is always greater than the sum of its parts, or sub-systems. A human behaviour cannot possibly be understood through studying, say, their organs, and they, in turn, through their subsystems, such as cells. However, to consider every complex system as an organism is not only a bit too extreme, but also doesn't help in understanding these systems. Michael mentioned "bottom" only two times, only once with "up" as in "bottom up" and failed to fully explain why that mattered. A complex system can only be said to be an organism or even acts like one, if decisions related to the system's overall behaviour came from top to bottom. The guest kept referring to and mentioning complex systems that were emergent out of the behaviours and properties of their sub-systems, i.e. bottom-up, rather than top-down. He also mentioned the "invisible hand" and thought Adam Smith failed to mention where or to what the invisible hand belonged to. Michael did explain why that was a wrong question. Smith's invisible hand simply doesn't need to belong to anything, also, it's invisible only in a true free market economy, in Bolshevik Russia it was visible.
Sure, a complex system can behave said to behave like an organism, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is one.
Another point. Modern AI, like ChatGPT, isn't lines of Python, like the guest claimed, that you could read. In fact, the complete behaviour of modern AI is still unknown. Wolfram claims he explained it in his recent book "What Is ChatGPT Doing … and Why Does It Work?", I haven't read the book yet.
Considering the fact that 99.999% of people never create anything of the novel/beautiful/genius level that people think of when discussing the awesome uniqueness of human intelligence, then, we can at least assume that AI/AGI will replace 99.999% of our functions.
yes but living isnt "functioning" , is "feeling".
@@francesco5581So if I get braindamage or a psychological condition that cuts me off from my feelings, do you consider me no longer alive?
@@theinnerlight8016 you still feel ...learn...even in the worst conditions
@@francesco5581 In my question I stated being cut off from feeling and you reply by saying "you still feel".
That's like me saying "I'm blind" and you replying "you still see."
Learning doesn't have anything to do with it either.
I doubt you thought any of this trough.
@@theinnerlight8016 you simply dont know... until something is "alive" it still feel even with ALL the senses cut off, there is always a subconscious and maybe other things at work. And regarding "learning" its either of the 2 or we live for learn or its all pointless... it's up to each of us to choose one option.
An example of awesome emergence is the eye. Natural philosophers of the 19th century could not imagine how an eye could evolve from simple tissue. The evolutionists investigated and eventually described more than a dozen separate occasions or linages in which an eye evolved. Awesome.
Another thing here by chance hein ? The eye is just a filter to allow the brain/consciousness to feel colors.
However, materialistic neurologists do Not know the source and origin of human Consciousness.
I'm a veterinarian, graduated in 1978. We always used anesthesia as did our predecessors. So ignorant to believe we didn't know animals felt pain before 1995. I had a difficult time watching the rest of the podcast.
Well, there are countries outside of the US...
Who knows if he referred to some foreign places?
Your cells don't know you exist... but they don't "know" anything.
The title, something I've been thinking a lot about. Can't wait until tonight to listen to this!
Skeptical
as usual .Excellent micheal
Interesting video.
This is the kind of topic youtube was made for.
I usually enjoy the pushback from Shermer, but he’s particularly being contentious and not allowing the guy to make his case, cutting him off, misunderstanding him (which makes the guy have to go back and repeat what he’s already said). He wasn’t like this talking to jordan Peterson, who got away with saying illogical things without pushback
Absolutely disagree, this is a great exchange
Shermer wasnt doing the constant interrupting, despite Byron making some extreme claims. That he didnt argue very well.
You're probably right because I could only bear 40 mins of it. It's on record whether there was constant interruption. And you wouldn't be able to argue well either if someone kept interrupting you while you're formulating your thoughts, extreme or not, which in itself is a meaningless value judgement that wouldn't have bothered Einstein or schrodinger. one thing we can both agree on is that this guy is definitely no Einstein or schrodinger @@durablecgo4560
I think he actually put a very good balance in the story, a skeptic take to increase clarity. i haven't heard Jordan Peterson saying illogical things, can you name any?
@@durablecgo4560 You're probably right because I could only bear 40 mins of it. It's on record whether there was constant interruption. And you wouldn't be able to argue well either if someone kept interrupting you while you're formulating your thoughts, extreme or not, which in itself is a meaningless value judgment that wouldn't have bothered Einstein or schrodinger. one thing we can both agree on is that this guy is definitely no Einstein or schrodinger.
Misread this as ‘superorgasm’
I don’t know that TH-cam allows that conversation 😂
I FEEL LIKE THIS IS AN EASY ONE. I PERSONALLY CAN FEEL THE VARIOUS SOULS OF DIFFERENT CITIES. ✌️
I think emergent phenomenon is so diverse and improbable that it is hard to imagine how they emerge. People think about emergence and come up with a wide range of ideas or theories to explain that emergence.
Michael should've let him speak more without so much pushback at the beginning.
I never got a clear picture of what's actually in his book.
Badly. Thanks for watching, like, comment, subscri
Where's E.O. Wilson?
strange he was never mentioned
Shermer needs more living creatures on his hair line.
Shermer was in an irritable mood, just immediately rips into the guy's main arguments, normally he listens for like an hour first
What an "animal" is depends on how we define it, so I'm you can';t just test it: some definitions of animal just don't accept anything that isn't all part of one body. (Though you could certainly write a definition which would mean humans are a single giant organism.
Who says humans are not animals?
@@homewall744 I mean human society is an organism, as he's suggesting. I'll edit it.
Horton Hears a Who in reverse.
"You're very sure about all this."
Continues to state to believe weird things without evidence. 😅
It's definitely not a 'single' superorganism. We are multiple superorganism, countries, ethnic groups, religions, races, etc... We aren't one big blob organism. Human groups are competing against each other.
A single planetary superorganism would have no competition, no selection pressure, and no ability to reproduce, and couldn't evolve.
Biology is complicated. Sometimes, immune systems turns on the organism.
Yeah a few minutes in and thought…okay weirdo idea to make a buck on another weirdo idea! You notice in the bee hive, no bees seek out to snuff out the life of another like the beastly humans we are….im gone!
@@piratessalyx7871 what? Bees kill other bees all the time. In winter the female worker bees kill all the male bees and throw them out of the hive. This is within a single hive, not a fight between hives. Bees murder all the males in winter.
bees sacrifice themselves for the hive peasant @@piratessalyx7871
Aunt Millie’s mind transforms into greater consciousness
She is actually MORE present than she has ever been.
Not what it looks like
Stop talking over these blessed people
Not over infants either
Both of these scenarios cause great great harm 💜
Cathy , I really enjoy both of your comments , and thank you for speaking up for the infants and the elderly , they are more present than the mess that emerges inbetween -- I think this mans thought is very important to take seriously , I look forwards to finding out what his next premise is .
I hope the cruises continue to be a thing.
I almost didn’t make it to the end of this discussion thanks to the rather combative Doubting Thomas; thankfully, when I picked it up again the Beekeeper had found his footing and I’m glad he did.
The skeptic was being minimally skeptical.
If he had gotten that bookkeeping badge instead of the beekeeping, would he now tell us that humans are a balance sheet? 😅
You have to expect that the superorganism is not going to allow us to entertain ideation for too long that threatens it. But yeah we have this fractal quality about us. Individually we are superorganism, not question. Species-wide, also. But every group of humans can behave in organism-like ways. The enemy of the group isn't the other group. It's the individual. Indeed, groups seem to keep one another coherent by hardening up boundaries through conflict. Peace allows loss through attrition, especially since the advent of the Enlightenment. Most people can't even like Enlightenment values, so foreign are they. And, looking around at our current situation? I'd say the superorganism has had enough of our interference and is trying to dissolve us back into identitarianism where we can all compete (compute) solutions by living out the drama rather than (ick!) thinking them through and remaining dispassionate and immune to emotional contagion.
One of the ways I have learned to discern what is true versus a flattering or useful narrative is that everyone hates the truth equally. The truth seems to gore everyone's ox equally. A fair heuristic that you've found it.
Did anyone get the 11 hundred joke at 1:14:26?
The somehow of how consciousness arises in the brain is unknown simply because of our ignorance of how the brain works. In fact we are bereft of the ability to ask to right questions to find out. It is one of the great frontiers of knowledge.
What constitutes a thought? If you work that out you will be famous.
If the brain neurons are not the origin of thoughts, then the materialistic neurologists are lost in space.
Byron Reese you are one of the most intelligent beautiful wise people I’ve ever experienced!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! WHAT AN IMPORTANT VISIONARY SCIENTIST YOU ARE!!!!🐝🐝🐝
Hi Clint
Yes. We evolved in a collective an are more like complex individual cells living as humanity. And we have white corpuscles and cancer both. We are always growing and evolving. Alliances come and go.
"Consciousness alone is." Papaji
This was such a great concept . Pity that the author of the idea just wasn't able to support or argue his ideas.
If he had not been constantly interrupted and guided into the defense zone , I think he would have had a chance to explain in a way that we all could have enjoyed .
Michael needs to shut up and let the guy talk!!!
He needs to do nothing of the sort. It's his show.
No, society yes, community yes, voluntary associations yes, families yes, but that we're all just part of a big collective is false. Each human is a super-organism because we're not only made up of lots of cells doing different things, but we also have 50% of our cells are not even our DNA/body.
30:00 this guest needs to look up current origin of life research. He's out to lunch. he had a good idea at the start of the talk about maybe considering societies as a superorganism in language classification. But he lost me when his repressed religious dogma started to bubble through.
I couldn’t get past 20 minutes. This guest is so much a pseudoscientist that I can’t believe Shermer brought him on his show. I mean, “the earth created humans to protect itself from a planet killing asteroid” 😮🤔 Is this guy aware that as the sun runs out of fuel, it will expand to encompass the earth? What then? Are we supposed to move the planet to a new “safe” zone 🤦
Why don’t you take a cruise ship to somewhere not Europe? Don’t you want to visit the Congo?
Is fire life? It technically meets all the definitions, but is it really? Or is saying its alive just more philosophical mumbo jumbo? Sorry, but Byron comes off as the type of person engaging in semantic mumbo jumbo, which makes it a shame he's wasted so much of his time and energy that otherwise could have been used on something actually needed by this mankind animal he dreams of.
40 minutes in... this was bad interviewing Michael... u were way 2 ideological as a skeptic. Which wouldn't be the problem only if u were making sense or good argument. But only thing im hearing is your ideology. Ironically considering the subject. Sure u brought some facts but they were irrelevant to the point. U didn't listen u wanted to be heard. So far I can't poke guests theory because u drowned the explanation with nonsense. Usually on ur off day u r too pasive.
Super annoying guest just wanted to hear himself
Oh man. This is what religions have been saying all along 😂
yeah, all 10,000 of them...what a bunch of mumbo jumbo huh?
@@BigTimeRushFan2112 Ok ok, don't be too literal. But certainly major religions have this understanding: Islam, Christianity, Hinduism. Mind you they go beyond but you know.. One step at a time.
barely
Re: Dawkins cruise: Nice to know that a bunch of smart privileged people totally ignore the environmental impact of traveling to and joining in a luxury cruise, when they could just read a few books or watch a few interviews. Disappointing but not a surprise.
Righteo Greta 🙄
Cry more for everyone