The art style and 247 is the complete opposite of what I wanted in a new and updated spiritual successor to EQ. If it was just 247 I’d probably be ok. Another way to generate income for the game, sounds good. But the back to back hits of the art style and then this seems suspiciously like a way to say, here’s the product we promised, our legal team is satisfied. PS I don’t think you need to worry about the ratio. We’re all feeling the same pain.
You helped me realize something that was bugging me about this change. When i see anything with the new direction i don't ge the old eq feelings that i always got when following the development. When things were focused on game play and the principles they were going to stick to -- open world, group based, slower, more tactical combat -- i was hooked. I thought i didn't care about the graphics, but it turns out that i don't care about the graphics quality, but i do care about the style. I'm just not sure that even with a great system and game play that this new direction is even possible to create the immersion and grit a 'serious' mmo has. Secondly, 247 seems like it includes everything we were told pantheon wouldn't be. Quest hubs, teleport pads, instances, race against the clock, linear quests, and boring go here, kill that, collect 12 of these, nonsense. Imo, they should have leaned into the hardcore aspects more and do a make or break. Painted style, sure, but I've seen painted style that doesn't look bright cartoony. Lean into the darkness. Give people scars and rags, make it rain, make stuff dirty. Give me a feeling that doesn't illicit Disney or wow. Side note: while i was watching this on my phone my kids are watching a cartoon for very young kids on the tv and i honestly got confused as to why ny kids were looking at pantheon on the tv. The new art style matches tv created for toddlers.
I completely agree with your thoughts. Been saying it since the original leak. Why are we getting a mode when we could just play the mmo…monetize the mmo, and release updates as they’re ready. I think the issue with their whole development has been their making a crowd funded niche game targeting it at a niche audience but treating it like a AAA release. I think if they did something more similar to embers adrift they’d have more success getting money from crowdfunding.
Because then they have to deal with all the additional BS from a player base being demanding and entitled because they're now paying. They would have to hire GMs and tech support to police the game and address players dealing with far more glitches, bugs and exploits than they would in a released game. As well as the obvious balance issues everyone would complain about constantly. In a normal alpha they could just do things like character wipes but paying customers aren't going to agree to such things. It's just a huge amount of unforeseen and common sense reasons to not do that.
I support Embers monthly. But, Embers has suffered greatly from their initial release. I don't know why folks act like Embers didn't lose a lot of their player base and goodwill because they released an unfinished game. Go back and read about Embers Adrift history and release. None of that affected me supporting them, but I've read complaints about the low population and numerous negative things since their release. They have done a good job this year but are playing catch-up Now folks want to act like releasing an unfinished game is an option when it has hurt Embers and others games. We've all read the stories and participated in some of them. You can be upset about Pantheon, but you can't rewrite history.
@@broquietstorm1266 Perhaps, but a released broken game is still better than a game never released. "I want VR to take all the time they need to finish the game and release it right rather than have a botched release" seems reasonable...but "all the time" is undefined. Is that 1 year, 5, 10, or 100? What if it genuinely never releases at all? "As long as it takes" isn't a viable position without some kind of limiter or qualifier, and we're already talking, what, 10 years? With a totally new direction (again) just released that means abandoning most work done before now. I dunno, I've been playing EA (started this weekend) and it seems pretty fun to me. Far better than the vapor I've been following since 2016 that is Pantheon. I've always defended VR and Pantheon, but the art change is a hard pill to swallow, and then this latest leak just has be given up. At this point, I'm not even mad. I just...don't care. I went to the forum, considered writing a post...and just closed the tab. I don't even care to write my thoughts about it to them anymore. ...that's bad. At this point, for the first time, I don't expect Pantheon to launch. I defended it up until now with the Castle D thing from a year or two ago which SEEMED to show a game in a playable state. Incomplete - assets, visuals, zones, classes, etc still needing to be added - but playable. Now we hear the entire art system is being revamped, which means ALL assets and even the zones that they created (which takes a lot of time) have to be redone from scratch. That's setting us back at least months, and more likely years. And then we have 247, and they can say all they want it will make the release faster, but let's be real, it's costing dev time and resources, and until it generates enough money for them to hire more people, the cost is net negative. Say what you will about games like them, Embers Adrift, hell, even STAR CITIZEN, have something people can log on and play. Incomplete, but playable, that nails the feel and aesthetic their respective audiences are looking for and providing them content and a shared world to explore and interact with others inside of. Pantheon... ... ...at this point, I don't think Pantheon ever WILL launch.
You're assuming that there has been much of a game or game development since McQuaid died way back in 2019. There is a possibility that there has been no meaningful work done at all in almost 4 years. How would we know? I don't believe the crowdfunders or fans such as myself have any right to any information about the company's number of employees, state of development, etc.
@@gameburn178 Don't all public companies have to make that information (namely number of employees) known? They definitely have to report it to the government as well.
I understand why they are doing what they are doing, but the part that bothers me the most is less about the 247, and more about the graphics change. This is not what I signed up for and donated for back when the original kickstarter came out, and again after the kickstarter failed. It just feels to me like they are moving away from the vision Brad had, and that bothers me.
Let me give you an example of how I've been viewing this whole thing. Back story first, my son was born 6 months after Everquest release date. I was almost 30. I loved Everquest, even if it was hard, it was a fun game to play with friends. Not solo. Pantheon was meant to bring back that "friends" game. I was really looking forward to that. But they have become that Dad, who takes his kid to toy store and points at a toy and says, "I'm going to get that for you son. Just you wait." Every year, he's showing his son that toy on their walks. Now that journey to the toy store with the Dad is awesome. It is time together and time to dream. But the reality of it, is the boy grows up and moves out without every having that toy. Too many things prevented that toy from being bought. It's all understandable. Every single excuse was totally understandable. Life is more important than that toy. So, maybe that son never got the toy, but maybe the grandchild will. Or maybe not. The dream died when the boy grew up and moved on. Thank you for the video. I like different perspectives. 🙂
Before I even listen to what you have to say, thx for having the balls to tackle the current dumpster fire that is Pantheon. ok, go! 28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you," Ten years in and no publisher Ten years and only half of the character classes/races Ten years and not one complete continent. Ten years and the features are incomplete. Sell out to EQ3 and call it a day.
Naw and not to speak ill of the dead. But Brad actually had a history of this sort of thing and was routinely bailed out by his buddy at SoE. It was dead long before that.
My old Guild leader from P99 put alot of money into Pantheon back when the tiers were initially implemented I feel really bad for people like that. They really believed in this game and the loss of Brad might just be too much to overcome...
You invest in stocks, real estate, shares in companies... not in "crowd funds" -- this is the dumbest form of financial contribution in history. At least if you give money to a charity you can get a tax deduction.
Lost faith in this game about a year and a half after brad passed as I watched the vision change and feature creep started happening, and all the recoding and graphics changes started happening. It was like constant resets. People were happy with some of the very early streams. They should have just kept moving forward instead of constantly resetting. I will look back at this game every now and then. But I honestly believe it’s a Vaporware at this point.
I agree that Pantheon is not a scam, but rather another case of a developer greatly underestimating the time and money it takes to make an MMO. But I have zero optimism that this game will release, or release in a state that I want to play it. Unfortunately, I see it going the way of Crowfall, being so bad it fails soon after it finally comes out. Hope I'm wrong.
But is it really a lot? They could have literally copied EQ 1 and had a straightline progression out quickly, then used funding to build out lateral zones and reset the game at completion.
You're not wrong. That's the reality of MMORPGs. Many could see this coming since before Brad passed away. I believe even he knew he was biting off more than he could chew. It would be kinder for them to just cancel the MMORPG and get it out of the way than to string people along with false hope. I understand that might not be a popular or nice opinion, but it's just the truth. MMORPG fans get enough abuse as it is and too many hopes crushed.
I personally don't think when Pantheon initially set out was intended to be a scam, but the recent decisions that have been made that have retracted away from the games core values has made it feels like a scam.Conclusively this is not a scam but there is no hiding away that this game is anything like their original vision outlined. It’s clearly now in a high risk category where potentially original features will be descoped, development will be slowed and investment may end up coming to a close. This is sadly the true reality with most kick starter, community backed development.
It is pitiful what they have accomplished within the last 10 years. I really want an old school EQ style MMO but they aren't getting a dollar from me until I see a finished product
This team just like StarCitizen wants to keep the game in perpetual development so the team keeps getting a "paycheck". Sadly this game became worse when Brad died. I hate to say this but his vision left when he passed. When it takes an entire year to add a jump/climb mechanic you know its bad. I feel bad for people who put a bunch of money into this cause at the end of the day, people just want a REVISED EVERQUEST, not VANGUARD 2.
The hard truth is that the longer it takes for Pantheon to be the released the more they will have to change the graphics and art style because just as you said, it will be outdated. Imo early access sounds like the way to go over the 247 mode. I play a handful of games that are in early access and the feedback for them would be immeasurable because they will actually get their hands on it and I agree more would be willing to pay money for it.
They have very little to show for it. I Spent every day of the year checking on it. They kept saying things were fine milestones accomplished, accelerate things. Same thing here new Art, and mode that looks like the start of a very new game. Not one that has over 6 years of pre-alpha. Very unprofessional communication, mine is not better but I don't get paid for it. They should just be honest with their investors as the struggle story would have won my support but they are always defensive because they know it might affect the budget. I watched Crowfall and many others go through this, and I've invested in them all. Supports have talked about releasing a slim version of the game for a while now with no reception, yet.
This game died when they changed the art direction for the majority of ppl. This is horrible news there is no spinning it. Also it is most certainly a scam, ppl backed it expecting one thing and they completely changed direction and may not even launch. I feel terrible for people who backed them financially.
I completely understand everyone's concern, I was concerned, still am : but less about the 24/7 and more about just seeing the progress and the communication : I think the Q&A was a good step in the right direction. The 24/7 isn't quite the big bad boogeyman people thought it would be in practice : but I can totally understand that until it's shown in full : let streamers play it and show that the magic and MMO aspects are there and when you see it all, you realize that everything they are updating for 24/7 is the MMO : the world, creatures, quests, classes etc
I think my bigger concern is all around the need for it outside of testing and what that signals for the health of the project and the trajectory. This, taken in concert with the art change, paints a really negative picture about where this game is at, where it's going. I think the QA helped a ton (and sadly came after this video) but my big concern remains: Can Pantheon make enough money to finish soon or are we at the beginning of the end as funding has dried up. Only time will tell but it really is rubber meets the road time. It was at least really nice to hear about other zones being added to 247. They're making some hard decisions right now and I dont envy anyone on that team one bit. These projects are *tough* and lets not forget that even the kickstarter didn't meet it's goal originally.
Nathan, I am so sorry these scammers have got you to invest in a dream they never even seemed to work on. You were successfully conned like all Pantheon fans. And I hate these criminals for making you have to rationalize away their scam just to avoid admitting you were conned. Bc you shouldnt have been conned. They should have just MADE THE FUCKING GAME.
Every MMO maker repeat after me- start where you are, not where you want to be. Do not spend 5+ years trying to make a vast world with thousands of NPCs, 20 balanced classes, and a dozen sub-systems while making zero dollars. Start small. In classic EQ terms, release Odus or Faydwer with the holy trinity playable. Give people something to play. Now you can keep working on all that depth with a base of players/testers and some income. Unlocking more classes and areas can be a way to engage players more- "Expedition to Antonica Weekend" as beta testing. Hell, build it into the lore as reclaiming the ruined world and lost knowledge being relearned. You might even make better decisions growing the game organically instead of creating in a bubble that may or may not burst.
EQ Next did the exact same thing, when they made Landmark. Turned out Landmark was the final product and EQ Next was scrapped. I am VERY worried, we'll never see anything else from VR besides the 247 mode.... 😵
They say crowd funding has slowed This maybe true but it happened when they stopped doing monthly videos and podcast. The last parting the veil was in June. They started holding back and that caused the crowd funding to slow down then say they need this. I tell my 8 year old all the time make good choices. If funding has been an issue then keep feeding your audience with monthly parting the veil and dev interviews or progress videos.
This has flashing caution lights all over it. If fans are still passionate about this game, especially after the revelations of the last month; I bet a few hundred people would buy 247 if offered within 6 months. And what would that do, honestly? Delay the death of the project for a few months? Maybe a year? I respect the dev team, but anyone genuinely hyped for this, is living off the same coping mechanisms that we did with Vanguard.
I feel like they would have been infinitely better off sticking with the original art direction, released literally a single continent and just opened up content as they were able to develop. It's different than how most of these games are "shipped," but feels in line with Early Access and realistic funding. If they didn't get enough to push through to new content and refine the existing content they released, they could have saved themselves like 5 years and moved on to new projects.
I'm pretty sure that this was the final nail in the coffin for Pantheon and VR. I cant understand if anyone in their right mind are willing to pay/invest/pledge more money to play the 247 mode for years while waiting for the final game. Joppa/Chris Perkins said it himself, that the MMO version are years away of happening, and if they think that monetizing a new version to keep people occupied while waiting, they are wrong. I'm giving VR 6-12 months before we see a public statement saying they are sorry that they had to abandon the project. This looks like EQNext/Landmark all over again.
I don't think people realize how little money they have gotten from investors+pledges, not much at all. Definitely less than 20 million, maybe less than 10 million, in total. The original blizzard dev team was spending like 20+ million per year developing WoW, for comparison.
I don’t think we will ever see Pantheon. At this point I think most people are just tired of the wait. It should never take this long to get any game out.
They are trying to avoid a law suit, and I guarantee you will have to sign a tos before playing 247. This game played on our love for Everquest and milked the community of its hope, dreams and money. When there is a class action, I look forward on joining it. To show, there are ramifications for using these manipulative tactics. A little bit of hope is a great thing, but hope after years of misinformation is like playing the lottery. Naive and it will never happen.
They deserve to be sued honestly. They marketed this as one thing, sold a TON of bullshit around it like climbing, elemental resistances in zones, down to the f'ing dialogue and it was smoke and mirrors. They never even completed a single ZONE!!!!! They always ever showed small, closed areas. I challenged them 2 years ago to just do a simple run from zone to zone... they couldn't. Now they are producing this 247 garbage, to avoid being sued. Period. If they do not produce SOMETHING after the money spent, with the things they have said, they can be in trouble and they know it.
It's just one bad decision after another. 247 is a terrible idea. The very notion of monetizing 247 is completely laughable. It's another colossal waste of time. There's always this one thing, when finished, that will "speed up development" super fast! Project Faerthale, Fortress DeViare demo, ViNL, HDR pipeline, race updates, class updates/refreshes, art style changes, 247, etc. It NEVER ends. There's always an excuse. For over 9 years we've heard nothing but excuses. They chronically paint themselves in a corner. I'm at the point where I don't believe these people have what it takes to deliver an MMO with even a fraction of the original vision, regardless of any intentions. If these guys were coaches of your favorite team, and never made the playoffs after 9 years, everyone would expect them to be fired. My hope for Pantheon is almost completely depleted.
Being an older game, I have gotten to Alpha and Beta test games and I can tell you the way Pantheon is currently doing it is rather silly. They want to wait until they feel that x is perfect before giving it to pre-alpha testers that is just going to slow things down and it has. Back in the old days of testing they would make shit put it out and we got to play it for 2 to 4 weeks in early alpha, class balance wasn't worried about too much and having all the correct mobs in an area wasn't worried about too much either. They needed stuff test and broken over and over again to see what was working and what was not. They needed feedback and lots of it. They needed to know what was fun and what was boring. After we got done with a session they would take it down for 2 to 4 weeks make changes and have us play it again, wipes would happen often as they were contently testing the early game. When they started adding in areas that would advance us to the next set of levels then we got to keep our toons a bit longer but there would still be wipes after we maxed out on that newer content. Once we got to about half or a little more than half of what was max level then the servers were staying out 2 months or so. Class balancing would be more of a focus around this time. This all got repeated many times over for about 2 or 3 years. Once we got to max level then we played and broke as much as we could give some of the final reports before opened up to beta testers. You could have any where from 2 to 4 different beta testing phases. Beta testing would last for about a year or so. The beta testing phase is where they would open up the flood gates and let in more and more people because they wanted to test their servers and see what their max load they could handle and try to guess how many servers they should have at launch. I do not think this mode they are putting out will help them in any way. They need to do 24/7 for a few weeks to a month. This team mode crap I think is going to hurt them a lot and they will not get the funding they are hoping for. I hope they quickly realize this and go to a more tradition testing phase like I remember and just get stuff for us to test and let us test it for weeks not a weekend.
Definitely not a scam but they definitely need money to proceed. Hope they can pivot and make this work in a reasonable fashion. My opinion: - 247 Game Mode = $15/m subscription pledge for testing systems, server stress, gameplay loop, bugs, etc - Full Alpha = $500, $750, $1k etc tiered pledge (including those who have already pledged) to test and flesh out the story, lore, quests, gfx, etc Make both options available on 01/01/2024, no exceptions.
You've accurately summarized the feelings and beliefs of detractors who want to see this game successfully launch. It's difficult to walk the line of valid criticism sometimes without coming off as dismissive (and I know you've seen some of mine in the discord) but kudos for doing what I cannot.
Good video, but you are incorrect about star citizen and SQ42... the are not "spinning off funds into SQ42".. The single player game is the original kick starter goal. The Persistent Universe sandbox was something one could do after finishing the single player campaign. Obviously that has changed and a great many people are more interested in the sandbox now.
Since the art and now this I'm just going to be sticking to Ember's Adrift (literally closest I have come to OLD school Everquest). Highly reccomended if your looking for that old school unforgiving experience just be aware its a group focused game and currently no raids and not sure if will ever have any.
@@aaronmiller4871 if you're looking for an active guild, give "bag runs" a try. It almost always has a good number of folks online. I'm a level 16 berserker. Look up Dupre in-game. We'd make a good XP grinding duo. I have a level 11 juggernaut and a level 6 duelist. Crafting and gathering is kind of fun when you can't find a group.
@@aaronmiller4871 Yes, it's interesting. So many express a desire for MMORPGs with old school sensibilities on the forum I frequent and yet when one comes along posters would rather disparage than welcome it for the most part. It makes their claimed fondness for such rather suspect. They have added a bit more QOL as you say. Perhaps that will draw some more players in.
Embers is really bad, level brackets are dead, and people have static groups so if you don't have any friends you'll end up LFG for hours on end (also the hard grind for leveling is pointless because there is no endgame to aim for at max level). The population hasn't peaked at over 50 people in more than 6 months. Honestly, that game will be shut down soon, I doubt it last another year.
Thanks for the clarifications. I had serious Everquest Next/Landmark feelings after hearing the 247 announcement. I'm not 100% convinced we'll see the MMO VR originally advertised. But I'll be happy to be wrong about it.
I wouldn't mind trying 247 out for a while. How much will it cost to test it out? If it means I have to pledge for pre-alpha ($750) they won't make any money of 247. If they want to lure people in, to test. They will have to lower the price for testing massively. What do you guys think?
I would not pay $750 to even play a game in a fully released state much less to test it.... They should be paying you $750 to test it not the other way around...
@@Vandakai Yeah I agree 100%. I remember paying $19,95 for testing Landmark back in the day. That was OK I think. A normal AAA game is around $60-70 for the full game, so you would have to be a lunatic to pay $750 just to test an unfinished mess of a game. I am glad I didn't pledge anything to Pantheon.
A benefit to calling this extraction project "247" is you aren't suggesting that it IS Pantheon. Because it appears not to be in any way Pantheon. If people thought this was definitely "Pantheon", then fans/crowfunders/players would call them on it... "no, it's not what I funded or wanted." You can't help but sense that something odd is happening here.
They are using already developed assets to try and create a game mode to jump on the extraction gameplay that is popular right now. No bone in the fight however a spade needs to be called a spade.
I appreciate the measured and sober take on this. I 100% agree, why not just let in more people to the alpha (if its true that they need more testers), even if it's a very limited slice of the mmo. The 247 thing just requires too many mental gymnastics to really add up. If they need alternate funding there's more straight forward compromises they could make, that stay closer to what the fan base actually wants. Why dogmatically draw a line in the sand at something like cosmetic microtransactions if the alternative is spinning off into an entirely different genre.
My observation is that MMOs are uniquely hard because they're competing against much higher paying industries for the VERY FEW experienced, competent, available devs who truly know how to build network layers and complex, realtime, asynchronous messaging with massively scaled persistence. 99% of those devs get pulled into finance, banking and telecom, all of which easily pay multiples more in comp.
What's really amazing is the history of Everquest and how quickly it was actually produced and released. I don't understand why a little crew back in the late 90s could produce an actual, full-fledged MMO in the blink of an eye, but with all the tech and resources and experience in the industry today, people can't produce a functioning game in 10 years.
For $20 you can go play Embers Adrift , no sub required. The small indie studio has nailed the old school EQ feeling and has filled all the content gaps from lvl 1-50. They are also soon adding magic, and its free to try for the next week by just making an acct. I highly recommend this game for those who have been waiting, and getting burned by Pantheon.
Yes you can, if you're satisfied with a crippled experience compared to your subscribing fellows. There are better MMORPG options available if one wishes to go the buy to play route.
@@user-zv3dm4eh8fthere are 30-40 players playing and when they give a free monnth it barely has 90-100 people if that. There are like 4 classes and 1 race. Everyone looks the same. Theres no magic. I can go on for days. Its a meh experience.
idk any more if I put time and effort and money into vision a which was promised and then boom here vision b under the same title which isn't what I put my time and effort towards feels scammy
I would enjoy a meme video with the couple at the end of Titanic in the water, but the women has "copium" where her face is and jack has "jack+pantheon" for a face... she starts blowing the whistle while the rescuing backer boat is looking for survivors. Grim but it somehow fits. Always a sad moment when good dreams sink out of sight and you are left looking around for a place to continue.
I found it fishy that they spent 10 years doing nothing and when a decision was made, they came up with new art and produced a game in a matter of weeks. The motive of VR is to stay employed so they can keep paying themselves for as long as possible. This is the only legal way to move crowdfunding money into their pockets. Releasing a bad game would end that cycle. But it probably got to the point where they were worried about being sued if they didn't release something. The long development cycle of games needs to end now. If a movie took 10 years to make, it would be a disaster. We need to stop backing proof of concepts. Pantheon is proof positive you can not crowdfund an MMORPG.
We all came from the age of true passion of game devs. The original devs of WoW made an awesome game from scratch (not lore or art wise) Sure they had a massive amount of money to throw at it but the major thing they had was passion. You can't tell me these people have the same level of passion as the Greats of the MMORPGs. All i see with startups like Pantheon is a lackluster dev with little passion for the game. The facts speak for themselves. Devs of everquest? Major nerds and very passionate developers. Ultima online? same thing. Dark age of camelot? same thing. World of warcraft at launch? Same thing. You can't bullshit me with "hard to make game" when these people did so much more with far less ease of use tools that modern devs have. Not only that but with Proof of concepts of almost every idea in the MMO market already. Devs have no excuse at this point in time to not learn from the mistakes of old and make a great game.
Can a crowdfunded MMORPG happen? Yes, they have. Embers Adrift is in a release state. Project:Gorgon is coming along. Both are continually available to play. Can a crowdfunded AAA MMORPG happen? Not as of yet. The key for success to date has been to keep the project modest, at least in comparison to those that have either now failed or are seemingly close. Star Citizen may be the only exception to that if it should some day be released.
And Albion online. I think that's a big distinction you mentioned. A crowdfunded mmo versus a triple a mmo. Perhaps it's our expectations as well as company aspirations that need a sort of reality check. Star citizen at this point has double a triple a budget so it kind of remains the outlier.
I support Embers monthly and enjoy the game...as a temporary thing. It's not my MMO home and never will be. But please read the history of Embers and how their release went before you use that as an example, though. Embers has suffered from releasing an unfinished game and is still playing catch up and trying to overcome a negative perception and low population. Project Gorgon is not on the same scale as Pantheon. I wish them well, but I'm not interested in playing it. Pantheon is closer in scale to AAA MMOS and games like Ashes. You can criticize them for aiming so high, but the game is not a small project. I would not have supported Pantheon in the manner I did and want it to be my MMO home like WoW was for a decade or more if it was a small-scale MMO like Embers or Project Gorgon. I don't think Pantheon would have the community it has or the support it had if it was a small-scale MMO like Embers or Gorgon. The tenets and scope of Pantheon combined with its Creator(and association with EQ) made Pantheon a bigger scale project. Even as a crowd funded game. That's the nuanced difference folks don't acknowledge.
Star Citizen has shown real progress in some of the details though. And we know they have picked up 200 million in funding. 200 million, lol. Not 2 million, 200 million.
Star Citizen? They have over 500 million. Pantheon is at about 5 million or so not including crowd-funding which isn't reported, CU is north of 20 million and Ashes made about 3.2 from their kickstarter and we have no idea how much they have from backers after that but they're up to 150 staff as of august 2023 per their livestream.
For anyone watching this video that feels burned on Pantheon. Realize there's games out there or experiences where you can still have fun. Embers Adrift which has that everquest feel, Project Quarm which is a private server for Everquest Vanilla but with quality of life stuff and iron man and hardcore modes as well as Project Gorgon all offer unique experiences where you can have fun and feel apart of the community in an old school way.
I’m a star citizen backer and pledged for Pantheon Rise Of The Fallen. I want people to push the boundaries and just make good games in their vision. I believe that the star citizen model is going to work. All that matters is at the end of the day you get to make your game. You have to find a model that allows you to pull in the money and build out your game at the same time. Star citizen was always a two game project. All backers knew that from the very start (if you did your homework). Chris Roberts created Wing Commander and this is a love letter to that past.
They just messed up their messaging on this. They should have never called this stand alone or say they might monetize it. If they just said this is a testing environment they would be considered geniuses as this is an amazing way to funnel testers into what you want tested. That's all this is. If you think about testing a giant MMO with a small player base it's almost impossible to get what you want tested in a timely manner. Having this hub and portal system with limited time allows you to push players exactly where you want them to test. Once that part is done you add it into pantheon as feature complete. It's actually really smart.
I am just totally bummed -- I am done with this game -- glad I never gave up on Everquest 2-- another year before they get back to the real game -- no just no, not waiting
I was a little upset about the redesign. Not because I didn't like the style, wanted it to be changed or whatever! I was upset that this game is still unfinished and they're stuffing around with an STYLE change? I don't have a game, finish the f'ing game already, THEN change the art style or whatever!!
I really can't disagree with anything that you said. I backed Pantheon years ago. I figured it would be a long shot that it would be completed with the scope that they talked about way back when. But what else can you do but bet on one of these Indie devs when all the major ones produce the same 💩 over and over again? There are a few things VR is guilty of: To large of a scope given the size of the team, Craptastic communication, over estimating their capabilities (and maybe that of the tech they were using) and mismanagement. I love their passion. I love that they are trying everything they can to get this done as soon as possible but I think if they try to monetize 247, its going to destroy what any goodwill they still have in the community. I get why 247 exists to some extent, but It should only be used for testing purposes. I can't see it bringing in the kind of funding they need to hire the amount of staff they need to complete the current scope of the MMO in only a few years. They are going to have to compromise in some way: Get a publisher and risk alienating the backing player base because you know monetization is going to be a port of that deal or they shrink the scope of the game down. I think if they shrink the scope down to Kingsreach, polish the crap out of and release just that continent, that it would hold over the community long enough to get the other 2 continents(along with those race/class combos) done as individual free expansions(for backers). While hopefully making enough off of new players. Just one guys opinion on the matter.
I’ve mentioned this before on another video but I really do feel without Brad at the helm this game was destined to fail. This was his baby, nobody else was going to guide it to the finish properly but him.
I always defended Pantheon against the haters. Despite so much of the criticism they received I understood the challenges of building an indie MMORPG and always tried to have faith in the creators. I even invested over $1000 in the game. Sadly the game they've been showing off recently has transitioned so far off the mark that I feel like I can't defend them any longer - it almost seems like a catfish or prank. It's left me so utterly disappointed, not just because the critics were right and I got scammed, but also because of what damage this will do to any future indie games and because I've had to give up on the game I was so looking forward to playing some day.
I think all of those feelings are absolutely valid. It's tough to swallow and you really hit on it with the last point. If Pantheon and Ashes fail, I kind of think Indie MMOs of any large scope are kind of done. Star Citizen is it's own thing with its ridiculous budget and having been kind of "first."
@@Redbeardflynn I think the best way for any future MMORPG's to be developed is by using the method that Monsters & Memories is using. They've put years of volunteer hours into the development of a "proof of concept" before they've ever asked for a dollar. It seems much smarter to get the players into the game and expand it around them than it does to build a huge MMORPG from scratch. Thanks for the video and for replying to my comment! Have a great day :)
I wrote this off, as soon as I saw the art style change.... which means they have to restart on a lot of things... meaning it's being pushed back on completion. And by the time it comes out, it will be DOA , especially if it is a pay to play model. Everyone that was interested, and possibly a hardcore player, is now moved on, and the game isn't even slightly close to being completed. The fact they are switching it to a "survival" game, is telling me people are jumping ship, and funds are running out. The amount of time and money to render it in their previous engine, would be far more than what they have, it seems. Back to EverQuest we go... and by the looks of it, I am willing to bet that EQ3 will come out BEFORE this is completely shut down..... Once McQuaid passed away, the original designer/lead developer, I knew it was over. The game, sadly, went with him. *The game is dead* There won't be a MMORPG, it will be a watered down "ARK" - if it lives that long..... which I doubt, highly doubt.... I gave two grand for this .... two $1,000 packages. And now we get this .... wasn't what I bought into, at all .... RIP McQuaid
Great video Red. I agree and partake in the frustration, but I also run a software development team and understand the hard choices that must be made sometimes. VR certainly has a lot of room to grow on the communication front though. There are some key things they can do and last night's Q&A was one of them.
If you ran a software dev team, then you'd know based on the evidence (more like lack of evidence) and announcements theyve made in their history, that this was most likely vaporware and a massive fraud for a very long time. Now confirmed. Their 247 update and change in direction is to avoid lawsuits by giving a product so they cant be convicted for fraud. Bc it was fraud.
I have over a decade experience making video games, and even single handledly wrote all the codebase for an open world survival game I developed with a small team. This type of server/client structure is nearly identical in many ways to a MMORPG. It does take a long time to write this code (in terms of months, not years, for 1 person) and it is frustrating how literally almost any features you add have to touch this code (so you cant just turn a singleplayer game into a MMO, you basically would have to write an entirely new game). However VR never even had a singleplayer prototype to share. They never had much of anything. I, by myself, could take 6 months to use some unity assets (gfx) to make a prototype and pretend it is some MMO alpha. That doesnt even mean the netcode supports Massive player numbers. This is a scam. Fraud. Whether malicious fraud or gross incompetence that lead to fraud to cover up the spending. Idk.
It is possible to make a good crowdfunded game. Remember Cuphead? The problem is when people turn into Peter Molyneux in order to get backing. You promise the sun, moon, and ALL the stars when your dev team isn't even double digits in size. MMOs are expensive. Ask Raph Koster or Travis McGeathy. It's at the level of Hollywood blockbuster at this point, for anything more complex than Horizons (oh sorry, Istaria). If you don't have at least $50 million, have a seat. In fact, have several seats. But then they make the promises and "Oh it's gonna be this" "It's gonna be that", "hardcore" (cutting out 70% of your potential userbase), etc. It was one thing when you had the cachet of Brad (such as it was) but you don't have that now. I've said the same thing since Brad passed: Pantheon is vaporware until it actually releases (assuming it does). The longer they take to at least get to early access, the more out of step with the market they'll be. A lot's changed in the MMO market since 2016.
I got the solution guys! Everyone buy a lotto ticket once a week, put some winning their way. A jackpot means we’ll get pantheon within the next decade! Jokes aside, hope that this comes to fruition! Good video dude
RE: why not alpha access instead of 247? I think we're dodging the tough question here - and that is, is there even a playable version of the game that is alpha worthy? Is there a zone ready? Maybe, probably..? But are there two zones ready? From the small listing off that I was hearing in the Discord meeting - to me, it feels like it's hard to have confidence that there are even a handful of "ready" zones for an alpha worth having. From what I can tell - although it's admirable and certainly a worthy goal - they simply have been setting their sights too high when it comes to detail. Look at that concept art in your vid for the animals - look at all of the detailed words written, pointing to various areas like Tusks and Hair on the boar, and what those features do. This is great for a book - but damn, is it hamstringing-ly over-detailed for development of an MMO. At the end of the day - we're going to kill those boars and not give a crap about the thoughtful function of their body features other than, "does it look cool?" Consider the orcs in Everquest. Are we analyzing their teeth or lack thereof? This is just a small example of the type of development I've seen over all the years this game has been being made. I will still remember the stream where Chris talked about the pattern design on the edge of a carpet that was in a building they were showing - telling the cultural significance to this pattern. I was hearing it and thinking... holy crap... they can't be serious that they're operating at this sort of level - they have a huge world and this is a carpet in a building.... this will never be completed with this style of micro-design. And here we are.... out of money and out of time. I'm cheering for them - still. But man... I think you nailed it when you said "I don't think they realized what they were getting themselves into". I can verify - this is the case. Brad was the idea guy on EQ and Vanguard. His vision inspired the teams. But someone else was helping reel that in and get it out the door. They're missing that on Pantheon and will fail without it.
This is why producers, project managers and directors are important!! Sure, a small team of talented developers may have the technical skills to create an MMO but that’s NOT enough to make a successful product. They need someone with experience who knows how to keep the team focused on progressing forward.
The way you described this basically sounds like they're doing what so many other developers are doing...mashing two genres together and calling it new. This sounds like Tarkov...but Pantheon skinned. Just like Valorant is Counterstrike...with MOBA champs. Or Overwatch is Team Fortress with MOBA champs.
The more I've thought about it, especially after their QA, it almost sounds closer to like...hardcore wow extraction? I dunno it's hard to put into words until people can play it without an NDA.
I would takes these graphics and run with it as long as game play is EQ-ish, group-centric game as it was originally promised. The part that pisses me off is the game has been funded to release for the last 5 years. But then always keep begging for more money.... Sorry. I have lost all hope. This game is never releasing. From the start, they wanted to do WAY too much. They needed to make a lev 1-40 game. One continent. One starting area. Just mobs, quests, dungeons and a single starter raid. keep it simple. Add more later. But they wanted to add everything that was in most games after 3 expansions. Why do they keep hiring people if they are broke? minus and this new woman that isn't a real community manager.
Honestly at this point I think Pantheon exists more to allow people to pretend they are mmorpg developers and some content creators to feel like they are special. People are just paying Visionary Realms to live out their dreams. As frustrated as Red is... He's going easy on them.
I still hope Pantheon comes out as the developers seem very genuine in their attempt to bring back an old-school experience. My approach is that you should never put more money into a Kickstarter than you're willing to lose... its like gambling. If it fails but they've genuinely tried to deliver, then you have no right to ask for your money back.
Around the 7:50 mark you talk about the amount of work that goes into an MMO.....I don't think I've seen a single project since crowd funded MMOs started learn the lesson of scope creep. Everquest and WoW both released in fundamentally flawed states, and some of the jank ended up being the parts of those games we loved most, but the vast majority of it was insufficient funds, time, or human resources to attend to every single problem, much less implement defining features to stand apart from the crowd. Like I love that, when these teams talk about "We need a feature to stand out from the crowd! How about a fully integrated perception system that expands the concept of how discovery can work in an MMO!" Bruh what crowd? You could stand out in the MMO genre by releasing. Literally have half a game, and release. You'd be the only one. I'd be willing to bet there are at least 100,000 people willing to pay a $10-14 subscription to play one of these without all the scope creep. That's a million in a month, there's your budget. Build off that, maybe you do add unique features, build out more classes or more land to explore or more content in starting areas so you don't make the world you built obsolete (looking at you WoW), then maybe you attract a slightly larger crowd, maybe 250,000 or more want to play your game. The amount of money people are clearly willing to spend on the idea of these games, if you just released something for them to play there's an apparent healthy niche nostalgic market that could be earning someone millions a month in subscription fees. Camelot unchained, a decidedly niche product in this niche market has raised what $4 million and been announced for 11 years now? RvR is not the draw that an everquest nostalgia hit would be, but you can't tell me that there weren't 3,000 people willing to pay $12.99/month to play that something even half finished that didn't have C.U.B.E. That's what it would have taken to hit $4 million in that span. 3,000 people subscribing and enjoying a game for 11 years. hell double that and you could release the game in 2019 and with 6,000 subscribers you hit the $4 million they've raised. We don't need these companies, or ourselves, to understand the great work that goes into an MMO, they need to understand that what they can build out of crowdfunding is likely enough to get people to buy in. We nostalgia seekers are older, have disposable income, there are quite a few of us who would only be able to play 8 hours a week max and still say the sub fee is worth it. with that, you build upon the dream, you add scope, and systems. maybe 10-15 years ago when these games were first being imagined there was a higher barrier to entry. we're like 10 failed projects and 20 years into this, people are ready to just play something.
To be fair to Squadron 42/Star Citizen - Wasn't SQ42 the original idea of the kickstarter? A modern generation's X-Wing/Wing Commander that evolved into multiplayer then MMO + single player campaign?
Well said. I am right there with you. I’m a VIP and I’m worried about where this will all end up. I have hope still but it’s getting harder as time goes on to stay positive
Thank you WIseBeardFlynn. My fears are the same. Players have seen this time and time again with other games. Even though its not a separate game, it reeks of past mistakes made by other studios. And yes. You cannot put a good spin on this. People will see it or hear about it and go nope. Not falling for that again. And yes, I also feel the desperation. And it saddens me. I really want VR to succeed and give us the game we want. Not so sure anymore.
I still say, open beta and anyone who pledged charge a $1 a month subscription and anyone who didn't charge a couple more. Boom a steady monthly income for VR to make the game we want.
I found this very fair to everyone involved, good work! I’ve been following Pantheon since maybe 2016 though I haven’t supported it financially. I *really* hope they can make this work, but I think it will take a publisher and everything that entails to make it happen.
Assuming you'll have a follow up after the Discord discussion? Some of your points seem to have some additional context to consider, i.e. the need for 247 to test things because our (the player) behavior is to focus on the MMO progression during testing, leaving certain things untested - this resonated with me as yet another headwind to development of MMOs that feels like it gives credibility to why they need this mode. Keeping that entirely separate from the conversation around the need to secure a reliable influx of new funding, which they clearly indicated is a real need and consideration for them. Appreciate your informed and balanced coverage of this!
It didn't start as a scam but it is becoming one. Once Brad passed away Chris a man who shouldn't be heading this up is now in charge. I think he wanted to silently pivot from what they did with Brad to his vision and it's not working. They got a leak about 247 and had to scramble to "announce it". They've taken people's money for 10 years and the first 4 to 6 things were looking slow but overall great. Now it's the art style, the focus on the extraction mini game / testing tool. Which I think they wanted to flesh out more before revealing. I think they got caught with their pants down.
Something that gets me is say how FFXIV's 1st release was sooo bad everybody said it would destroy the FF series all together. They went into full reboot mode and told everybody playing that you're welcome to keep playing this version of the game but know that this version will disappear in a couple years. So we got to keep playing and as we keep playing they kept doing improvements to the servers and everything I'd compare it to about ember's adrift style of always improving something to keep people positive. Why can't Pantheon just understand that in todays world they have to just prerelease the game and let the hardcore mmo people play it shit I mean they could prerelease it for $100 USD and sale probably over 1000 copies at the start EASILY! Which would get them more funding and they could still put a $10 month sub on it and just keep developing the game at their current snail pace and be fine people would love to have a MMO that's dedicated to improving like Embers Adrift and fun. I think they're just so stubborn and believe if they keep hiding it everybody will be so happy when it finally release's but all it's really going to do is give them such a high ceiling to live up to that no mater how good or bad the game is when it's released it will be considered a failure 100%
Pantheon is nothing like Ashes of Creation. Ashes of Creation is actually progressing regardless of that apocalypse thing. Because the guy running it is actually rich and funding it himself that game will actually come out Pantheon will never come out and if it does it will be dead on arrival. There is nothing good about Pantheon its bad in every way.
SQ42 was part of the Kickstarter for Star Citizen (can still verify this on the KS page for the project). This would be more akin to CIG selling pledges to SC but instead of the Persistent Universe we just had Arena Commander mode. Other than that, nailed it!
Just an observation: I did not expect to see the amount of people I have who do actually believe SQ42 to be a newly-started distraction project seemingly akin to Kingdoms of Elyria, considering that Mark Hamill's involvement has already been known to gaming press for at least seven years, and the first teaser is partially (outside of CR's onscreen pitch) that of SQ42.
@@dy031101 I think it being in development hell for so long adds to that perception. I wasn't under the impression that it was brand new but I definitely should have put 2 and 2 together of a 2014 release date and a kickstarter in 2012 it could have been on the kickstarter. Perhaps that's also why it hasn't received the same rancor, though it's still gotten its fair share.
@@Redbeardflynn The development hell is indeed something unexpected if only in terms of magnitude from my perspective, as I foresaw difficulties when I decided to vote yes on scope change, and my reason is as much driven by interest in his experiments as it is by the potential end results. I didn't expect it to last beyond CR's own estimations, but then technical difficulties seems to be part and parcel with early 21-century videogame development (I kinda think CIG is indie in name only, assuming it holds on to that title), and at least he has been giving us backers convincing indication that he and his teams are trying. So I didn't mind (that much).
Is it a scam no but I feel they are trying to cover there as buy at least releasing something playable I loved the progress I've been watching over the years but how many times do you have to restart. Games do cost money to develop but think about it 10yr has gone past and still barely any playable content. In the end I hate to say but they are taking what happened to Chronicles of Elyria after they dissolved. Please prove me wrong I hope I am
Thanks for the explanation, the 247 seemed kinda weird. I think they could go for pledges and get newer people with it. I had put in a pledge for aoc before they did any of that pvp yuck. I hope they can come up with some sort of way to get money better. I would give them support money if they decide to NOT change the art style. I have been looking forward to this development for a long time and that is part of the appeal of the game. I do not understand why there is so many people that want something cartoonish? There are other mmos that cover that. I would be afraid that with that style patheon would get lost among other mmos rather than stand out. I understand the time and modeling aspect. If they want to use this as a placeholder until the model graphics are done? That may work?
247 sounds like a (possibly) weak RPG version of an extraction shooter. Timer/can lose everything etc It doesn't tickle my interest tbh. Disappointing news.
I've been following and cheering for Pantheon for years, but my concerns started a long time ago. Not because of how long it was taking to develop, but for all of the innovations they were planning. Originally, I felt we were being marketed a spiritual successor to EverQuest in a way that no game created since has ever managed to be. But the insertion of new mechanics like the perception system (big red flags for me) harkened me back to countless other MMOs that had the same flashy buzzwords that failed to truly innovate and, instead, were held hostage by their own ideas. Enter the graphics change (of which I absolutely abhor) and 247, and I've just lost faith in their product. I've begun to think that no developer in this market truly understands what made EverQuest so good. Everyone always thinks of one concept over all others when talking about EQ and what the market is missing: group-oriented gameplay. People throw that idea around a lot, and while everyone understands what it means, no one seems to be thinking about how to successfully implement it. The most obvious avenue would be combat, so let's briefly look at that... Combat in EQ is usually labeled slow due to the regen breaks between pulls and the simplistic auto-attack on/off style, but that was actually one of its greatest strengths in terms of group-oriented gameplay. Why? Because it fostered communication and socialization. In modern games, developers wanted combat to feel more exciting and engaging, and so they gave players a skill to execute at all times. This meant players were constantly pushing buttons and constantly killing mobs without any need to stop. If you have no reason to stop, you have no time to talk. This is just one of the ways a fundamental design change altered the landscape of the genre as a whole, and we haven't even touched class structure and the approach to teamwork. Now, am I saying that in order to make a true group-oriented game, you must copy EQ's combat system? No. As much as I would like to see it happen someday, I'm sure that's not the only solution. I never had the privilege of playing Vanguard so I'm not sure how they handled it... But I am convinced that no game will ever capture lightning in a bottle the way EQ did if developers keep skirting the edge of the modern format and don't start taking risks. And they need to stop blaming the landscape of gamers for their failures, claiming that "gamers are just so different now." That's a gross oversimplification at best, and a bald-faced lie in most instances. I have met so many people in p99 who never played EQ in the golden years, who have come from games like WoW at the behest of a friend, and they've LOVED it for all of the ways it was different and fostered group gameplay and socialization. Does that mean everyone will want to play this kind of game? Of course not. But there are far more people than they can fathom that will, that are starved for it. But a lot of developers suffer under the delusion that if you simply make a system available to players, they will engage with it. This is not the case. We need motivation, and I don't mean the exhausting hamster wheel reward system developers use nowadays, the daily login campaigns begging for playtime, the in-game events, the cash shop sales. True motivation starts with game design. You said it best in another video when talking about EQ epics... It wasn't always fun, but at the end you felt truly accomplished. You'll remember it forever, and fondly. That's how I think about EQ as a whole. Not every system is flashy and engaging, but when everything comes together, it's so incredibly rewarding and I always look back on my time in Norrath and say it was the most fun I've ever had in an MMO. Anyway, I'm terribly sorry for the overwhelmingly long comment... I could talk for days about this topic. Thank you for the video, for your perspective. I appreciate that you give your honest thoughts and don't pretend like nothing's wrong when something clearly is.
The art style and 247 is the complete opposite of what I wanted in a new and updated spiritual successor to EQ. If it was just 247 I’d probably be ok. Another way to generate income for the game, sounds good. But the back to back hits of the art style and then this seems suspiciously like a way to say, here’s the product we promised, our legal team is satisfied. PS I don’t think you need to worry about the ratio. We’re all feeling the same pain.
You helped me realize something that was bugging me about this change. When i see anything with the new direction i don't ge the old eq feelings that i always got when following the development. When things were focused on game play and the principles they were going to stick to -- open world, group based, slower, more tactical combat -- i was hooked. I thought i didn't care about the graphics, but it turns out that i don't care about the graphics quality, but i do care about the style.
I'm just not sure that even with a great system and game play that this new direction is even possible to create the immersion and grit a 'serious' mmo has.
Secondly, 247 seems like it includes everything we were told pantheon wouldn't be. Quest hubs, teleport pads, instances, race against the clock, linear quests, and boring go here, kill that, collect 12 of these, nonsense.
Imo, they should have leaned into the hardcore aspects more and do a make or break. Painted style, sure, but I've seen painted style that doesn't look bright cartoony. Lean into the darkness. Give people scars and rags, make it rain, make stuff dirty. Give me a feeling that doesn't illicit Disney or wow.
Side note: while i was watching this on my phone my kids are watching a cartoon for very young kids on the tv and i honestly got confused as to why ny kids were looking at pantheon on the tv. The new art style matches tv created for toddlers.
I completely agree with your thoughts. Been saying it since the original leak. Why are we getting a mode when we could just play the mmo…monetize the mmo, and release updates as they’re ready. I think the issue with their whole development has been their making a crowd funded niche game targeting it at a niche audience but treating it like a AAA release. I think if they did something more similar to embers adrift they’d have more success getting money from crowdfunding.
Because then they have to deal with all the additional BS from a player base being demanding and entitled because they're now paying. They would have to hire GMs and tech support to police the game and address players dealing with far more glitches, bugs and exploits than they would in a released game. As well as the obvious balance issues everyone would complain about constantly. In a normal alpha they could just do things like character wipes but paying customers aren't going to agree to such things. It's just a huge amount of unforeseen and common sense reasons to not do that.
I support Embers monthly. But, Embers has suffered greatly from their initial release. I don't know why folks act like Embers didn't lose a lot of their player base and goodwill because they released an unfinished game. Go back and read about Embers Adrift history and release.
None of that affected me supporting them, but I've read complaints about the low population and numerous negative things since their release.
They have done a good job this year but are playing catch-up
Now folks want to act like releasing an unfinished game is an option when it has hurt Embers and others games.
We've all read the stories and participated in some of them.
You can be upset about Pantheon, but you can't rewrite history.
@@broquietstorm1266 Perhaps, but a released broken game is still better than a game never released.
"I want VR to take all the time they need to finish the game and release it right rather than have a botched release" seems reasonable...but "all the time" is undefined. Is that 1 year, 5, 10, or 100? What if it genuinely never releases at all? "As long as it takes" isn't a viable position without some kind of limiter or qualifier, and we're already talking, what, 10 years? With a totally new direction (again) just released that means abandoning most work done before now.
I dunno, I've been playing EA (started this weekend) and it seems pretty fun to me. Far better than the vapor I've been following since 2016 that is Pantheon. I've always defended VR and Pantheon, but the art change is a hard pill to swallow, and then this latest leak just has be given up. At this point, I'm not even mad. I just...don't care. I went to the forum, considered writing a post...and just closed the tab. I don't even care to write my thoughts about it to them anymore.
...that's bad.
At this point, for the first time, I don't expect Pantheon to launch.
I defended it up until now with the Castle D thing from a year or two ago which SEEMED to show a game in a playable state. Incomplete - assets, visuals, zones, classes, etc still needing to be added - but playable.
Now we hear the entire art system is being revamped, which means ALL assets and even the zones that they created (which takes a lot of time) have to be redone from scratch. That's setting us back at least months, and more likely years. And then we have 247, and they can say all they want it will make the release faster, but let's be real, it's costing dev time and resources, and until it generates enough money for them to hire more people, the cost is net negative.
Say what you will about games like them, Embers Adrift, hell, even STAR CITIZEN, have something people can log on and play. Incomplete, but playable, that nails the feel and aesthetic their respective audiences are looking for and providing them content and a shared world to explore and interact with others inside of.
Pantheon... ... ...at this point, I don't think Pantheon ever WILL launch.
You're assuming that there has been much of a game or game development since McQuaid died way back in 2019. There is a possibility that there has been no meaningful work done at all in almost 4 years. How would we know? I don't believe the crowdfunders or fans such as myself have any right to any information about the company's number of employees, state of development, etc.
@@gameburn178 Don't all public companies have to make that information (namely number of employees) known? They definitely have to report it to the government as well.
I am one of the 1K backers, and I feel completely stabbed in the back.
The game is no longer what I was told it was going to be.
You could try to get a refund. Test it legally.
I understand why they are doing what they are doing, but the part that bothers me the most is less about the 247, and more about the graphics change. This is not what I signed up for and donated for back when the original kickstarter came out, and again after the kickstarter failed. It just feels to me like they are moving away from the vision Brad had, and that bothers me.
Let me give you an example of how I've been viewing this whole thing. Back story first, my son was born 6 months after Everquest release date. I was almost 30. I loved Everquest, even if it was hard, it was a fun game to play with friends. Not solo. Pantheon was meant to bring back that "friends" game. I was really looking forward to that. But they have become that Dad, who takes his kid to toy store and points at a toy and says, "I'm going to get that for you son. Just you wait." Every year, he's showing his son that toy on their walks. Now that journey to the toy store with the Dad is awesome. It is time together and time to dream. But the reality of it, is the boy grows up and moves out without every having that toy. Too many things prevented that toy from being bought. It's all understandable. Every single excuse was totally understandable. Life is more important than that toy. So, maybe that son never got the toy, but maybe the grandchild will. Or maybe not. The dream died when the boy grew up and moved on. Thank you for the video. I like different perspectives. 🙂
That is a lot of words
Ok
I hope you'll get the chance to play Pantheon one day.
That's a sad story
Have you tried Project Gorgon rage? Its pretty dope, considering youre an Everquest guy.
Great vid dude. Lot of tought put in. I'm certainly bummed about how things are going, I wanted to play Pantheon too. :(
Before I even listen to what you have to say, thx for having the balls to tackle the current dumpster fire that is Pantheon. ok, go!
28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you,"
Ten years in and no publisher
Ten years and only half of the character classes/races
Ten years and not one complete continent.
Ten years and the features are incomplete.
Sell out to EQ3 and call it a day.
This is sad but not really unexpected. This project has been in a slow motion death spiral for years and this development is not a good sign at all.
Game died when Brad died.
Naw and not to speak ill of the dead. But Brad actually had a history of this sort of thing and was routinely bailed out by his buddy at SoE. It was dead long before that.
when Brad McQuaid died, so did Pantheon.
My old Guild leader from P99 put alot of money into Pantheon back when the tiers were initially implemented I feel really bad for people like that. They really believed in this game and the loss of Brad might just be too much to overcome...
You invest in stocks, real estate, shares in companies... not in "crowd funds" -- this is the dumbest form of financial contribution in history. At least if you give money to a charity you can get a tax deduction.
Lost faith in this game about a year and a half after brad passed as I watched the vision change and feature creep started happening, and all the recoding and graphics changes started happening. It was like constant resets.
People were happy with some of the very early streams. They should have just kept moving forward instead of constantly resetting.
I will look back at this game every now and then. But I honestly believe it’s a Vaporware at this point.
I agree that Pantheon is not a scam, but rather another case of a developer greatly underestimating the time and money it takes to make an MMO. But I have zero optimism that this game will release, or release in a state that I want to play it. Unfortunately, I see it going the way of Crowfall, being so bad it fails soon after it finally comes out. Hope I'm wrong.
But is it really a lot? They could have literally copied EQ 1 and had a straightline progression out quickly, then used funding to build out lateral zones and reset the game at completion.
its a scam. look at what embers adrift has done in a fraction of the time and 10 devs
You're not wrong. That's the reality of MMORPGs. Many could see this coming since before Brad passed away. I believe even he knew he was biting off more than he could chew. It would be kinder for them to just cancel the MMORPG and get it out of the way than to string people along with false hope. I understand that might not be a popular or nice opinion, but it's just the truth. MMORPG fans get enough abuse as it is and too many hopes crushed.
Wow. I didn't realize Crowfall shut down. I thought it was still chugging along with what remaining players it had.
I personally don't think when Pantheon initially set out was intended to be a scam, but the recent decisions that have been made that have retracted away from the games core values has made it feels like a scam.Conclusively this is not a scam but there is no hiding away that this game is anything like their original vision outlined. It’s clearly now in a high risk category where potentially original features will be descoped, development will be slowed and investment may end up coming to a close. This is sadly the true reality with most kick starter, community backed development.
It is pitiful what they have accomplished within the last 10 years. I really want an old school EQ style MMO but they aren't getting a dollar from me until I see a finished product
This team just like StarCitizen wants to keep the game in perpetual development so the team keeps getting a "paycheck". Sadly this game became worse when Brad died. I hate to say this but his vision left when he passed. When it takes an entire year to add a jump/climb mechanic you know its bad. I feel bad for people who put a bunch of money into this cause at the end of the day, people just want a REVISED EVERQUEST, not VANGUARD 2.
The hard truth is that the longer it takes for Pantheon to be the released the more they will have to change the graphics and art style because just as you said, it will be outdated. Imo early access sounds like the way to go over the 247 mode. I play a handful of games that are in early access and the feedback for them would be immeasurable because they will actually get their hands on it and I agree more would be willing to pay money for it.
They have very little to show for it. I Spent every day of the year checking on it. They kept saying things were fine milestones accomplished, accelerate things. Same thing here new Art, and mode that looks like the start of a very new game. Not one that has over 6 years of pre-alpha. Very unprofessional communication, mine is not better but I don't get paid for it. They should just be honest with their investors as the struggle story would have won my support but they are always defensive because they know it might affect the budget. I watched Crowfall and many others go through this, and I've invested in them all. Supports have talked about releasing a slim version of the game for a while now with no reception, yet.
This game died when they changed the art direction for the majority of ppl. This is horrible news there is no spinning it. Also it is most certainly a scam, ppl backed it expecting one thing and they completely changed direction and may not even launch. I feel terrible for people who backed them financially.
I completely understand everyone's concern, I was concerned, still am : but less about the 24/7 and more about just seeing the progress and the communication : I think the Q&A was a good step in the right direction. The 24/7 isn't quite the big bad boogeyman people thought it would be in practice : but I can totally understand that until it's shown in full : let streamers play it and show that the magic and MMO aspects are there and when you see it all, you realize that everything they are updating for 24/7 is the MMO : the world, creatures, quests, classes etc
I think my bigger concern is all around the need for it outside of testing and what that signals for the health of the project and the trajectory. This, taken in concert with the art change, paints a really negative picture about where this game is at, where it's going.
I think the QA helped a ton (and sadly came after this video) but my big concern remains: Can Pantheon make enough money to finish soon or are we at the beginning of the end as funding has dried up. Only time will tell but it really is rubber meets the road time. It was at least really nice to hear about other zones being added to 247. They're making some hard decisions right now and I dont envy anyone on that team one bit. These projects are *tough* and lets not forget that even the kickstarter didn't meet it's goal originally.
Nathan, I am so sorry these scammers have got you to invest in a dream they never even seemed to work on. You were successfully conned like all Pantheon fans. And I hate these criminals for making you have to rationalize away their scam just to avoid admitting you were conned. Bc you shouldnt have been conned. They should have just MADE THE FUCKING GAME.
Every MMO maker repeat after me- start where you are, not where you want to be. Do not spend 5+ years trying to make a vast world with thousands of NPCs, 20 balanced classes, and a dozen sub-systems while making zero dollars. Start small. In classic EQ terms, release Odus or Faydwer with the holy trinity playable. Give people something to play. Now you can keep working on all that depth with a base of players/testers and some income. Unlocking more classes and areas can be a way to engage players more- "Expedition to Antonica Weekend" as beta testing. Hell, build it into the lore as reclaiming the ruined world and lost knowledge being relearned. You might even make better decisions growing the game organically instead of creating in a bubble that may or may not burst.
EQ Next did the exact same thing, when they made Landmark. Turned out Landmark was the final product and EQ Next was scrapped. I am VERY worried, we'll never see anything else from VR besides the 247 mode.... 😵
They say crowd funding has slowed This maybe true but it happened when they stopped doing monthly videos and podcast. The last parting the veil was in June. They started holding back and that caused the crowd funding to slow down then say they need this. I tell my 8 year old all the time make good choices. If funding has been an issue then keep feeding your audience with monthly parting the veil and dev interviews or progress videos.
This has flashing caution lights all over it. If fans are still passionate about this game, especially after the revelations of the last month; I bet a few hundred people would buy 247 if offered within 6 months. And what would that do, honestly? Delay the death of the project for a few months? Maybe a year?
I respect the dev team, but anyone genuinely hyped for this, is living off the same coping mechanisms that we did with Vanguard.
I feel like they would have been infinitely better off sticking with the original art direction, released literally a single continent and just opened up content as they were able to develop. It's different than how most of these games are "shipped," but feels in line with Early Access and realistic funding. If they didn't get enough to push through to new content and refine the existing content they released, they could have saved themselves like 5 years and moved on to new projects.
I'm pretty sure that this was the final nail in the coffin for Pantheon and VR. I cant understand if anyone in their right mind are willing to pay/invest/pledge more money to play the 247 mode for years while waiting for the final game. Joppa/Chris Perkins said it himself, that the MMO version are years away of happening, and if they think that monetizing a new version to keep people occupied while waiting, they are wrong. I'm giving VR 6-12 months before we see a public statement saying they are sorry that they had to abandon the project. This looks like EQNext/Landmark all over again.
I don't think people realize how little money they have gotten from investors+pledges, not much at all. Definitely less than 20 million, maybe less than 10 million, in total. The original blizzard dev team was spending like 20+ million per year developing WoW, for comparison.
That's what I tried to show with the graph.
I don’t think we will ever see Pantheon. At this point I think most people are just tired of the wait. It should never take this long to get any game out.
They are trying to avoid a law suit, and I guarantee you will have to sign a tos before playing 247. This game played on our love for Everquest and milked the community of its hope, dreams and money.
When there is a class action, I look forward on joining it. To show, there are ramifications for using these manipulative tactics.
A little bit of hope is a great thing, but hope after years of misinformation is like playing the lottery. Naive and it will never happen.
They deserve to be sued honestly. They marketed this as one thing, sold a TON of bullshit around it like climbing, elemental resistances in zones, down to the f'ing dialogue and it was smoke and mirrors. They never even completed a single ZONE!!!!! They always ever showed small, closed areas. I challenged them 2 years ago to just do a simple run from zone to zone... they couldn't.
Now they are producing this 247 garbage, to avoid being sued. Period. If they do not produce SOMETHING after the money spent, with the things they have said, they can be in trouble and they know it.
It's just one bad decision after another. 247 is a terrible idea. The very notion of monetizing 247 is completely laughable. It's another colossal waste of time. There's always this one thing, when finished, that will "speed up development" super fast! Project Faerthale, Fortress DeViare demo, ViNL, HDR pipeline, race updates, class updates/refreshes, art style changes, 247, etc. It NEVER ends. There's always an excuse. For over 9 years we've heard nothing but excuses. They chronically paint themselves in a corner. I'm at the point where I don't believe these people have what it takes to deliver an MMO with even a fraction of the original vision, regardless of any intentions. If these guys were coaches of your favorite team, and never made the playoffs after 9 years, everyone would expect them to be fired. My hope for Pantheon is almost completely depleted.
Being an older game, I have gotten to Alpha and Beta test games and I can tell you the way Pantheon is currently doing it is rather silly. They want to wait until they feel that x is perfect before giving it to pre-alpha testers that is just going to slow things down and it has. Back in the old days of testing they would make shit put it out and we got to play it for 2 to 4 weeks in early alpha, class balance wasn't worried about too much and having all the correct mobs in an area wasn't worried about too much either. They needed stuff test and broken over and over again to see what was working and what was not. They needed feedback and lots of it. They needed to know what was fun and what was boring. After we got done with a session they would take it down for 2 to 4 weeks make changes and have us play it again, wipes would happen often as they were contently testing the early game.
When they started adding in areas that would advance us to the next set of levels then we got to keep our toons a bit longer but there would still be wipes after we maxed out on that newer content. Once we got to about half or a little more than half of what was max level then the servers were staying out 2 months or so. Class balancing would be more of a focus around this time. This all got repeated many times over for about 2 or 3 years. Once we got to max level then we played and broke as much as we could give some of the final reports before opened up to beta testers. You could have any where from 2 to 4 different beta testing phases. Beta testing would last for about a year or so. The beta testing phase is where they would open up the flood gates and let in more and more people because they wanted to test their servers and see what their max load they could handle and try to guess how many servers they should have at launch.
I do not think this mode they are putting out will help them in any way. They need to do 24/7 for a few weeks to a month. This team mode crap I think is going to hurt them a lot and they will not get the funding they are hoping for. I hope they quickly realize this and go to a more tradition testing phase like I remember and just get stuff for us to test and let us test it for weeks not a weekend.
Definitely not a scam but they definitely need money to proceed. Hope they can pivot and make this work in a reasonable fashion.
My opinion:
- 247 Game Mode = $15/m subscription pledge for testing systems, server stress, gameplay loop, bugs, etc
- Full Alpha = $500, $750, $1k etc tiered pledge (including those who have already pledged) to test and flesh out the story, lore, quests, gfx, etc
Make both options available on 01/01/2024, no exceptions.
Its hard to understand what you are saying with Pantheon's Sdick in your mouth.
You've accurately summarized the feelings and beliefs of detractors who want to see this game successfully launch. It's difficult to walk the line of valid criticism sometimes without coming off as dismissive (and I know you've seen some of mine in the discord) but kudos for doing what I cannot.
Good video, but you are incorrect about star citizen and SQ42... the are not "spinning off funds into SQ42".. The single player game is the original kick starter goal. The Persistent Universe sandbox was something one could do after finishing the single player campaign. Obviously that has changed and a great many people are more interested in the sandbox now.
Since the art and now this I'm just going to be sticking to Ember's Adrift (literally closest I have come to OLD school Everquest). Highly reccomended if your looking for that old school unforgiving experience just be aware its a group focused game and currently no raids and not sure if will ever have any.
I love embers especially with all the new qol they’ve added but my 18 jugg has had no success finding a group in a week
@@aaronmiller4871 if you're looking for an active guild, give "bag runs" a try. It almost always has a good number of folks online. I'm a level 16 berserker. Look up Dupre in-game. We'd make a good XP grinding duo. I have a level 11 juggernaut and a level 6 duelist. Crafting and gathering is kind of fun when you can't find a group.
@@aaronmiller4871 Yes, it's interesting. So many express a desire for MMORPGs with old school sensibilities on the forum I frequent and yet when one comes along posters would rather disparage than welcome it for the most part. It makes their claimed fondness for such rather suspect. They have added a bit more QOL as you say. Perhaps that will draw some more players in.
Embers is really bad, level brackets are dead, and people have static groups so if you don't have any friends you'll end up LFG for hours on end (also the hard grind for leveling is pointless because there is no endgame to aim for at max level). The population hasn't peaked at over 50 people in more than 6 months. Honestly, that game will be shut down soon, I doubt it last another year.
Thanks for the clarifications. I had serious Everquest Next/Landmark feelings after hearing the 247 announcement. I'm not 100% convinced we'll see the MMO VR originally advertised. But I'll be happy to be wrong about it.
What happened to "We have funding to finish the game"?
This game is never releasing.
I wouldn't mind trying 247 out for a while. How much will it cost to test it out? If it means I have to pledge for pre-alpha ($750) they won't make any money of 247. If they want to lure people in, to test. They will have to lower the price for testing massively. What do you guys think?
I would not pay $750 to even play a game in a fully released state much less to test it.... They should be paying you $750 to test it not the other way around...
@@Vandakai Yeah I agree 100%. I remember paying $19,95 for testing Landmark back in the day. That was OK I think. A normal AAA game is around $60-70 for the full game, so you would have to be a lunatic to pay $750 just to test an unfinished mess of a game. I am glad I didn't pledge anything to Pantheon.
A benefit to calling this extraction project "247" is you aren't suggesting that it IS Pantheon. Because it appears not to be in any way Pantheon. If people thought this was definitely "Pantheon", then fans/crowfunders/players would call them on it... "no, it's not what I funded or wanted." You can't help but sense that something odd is happening here.
They are using already developed assets to try and create a game mode to jump on the extraction gameplay that is popular right now. No bone in the fight however a spade needs to be called a spade.
I appreciate the measured and sober take on this. I 100% agree, why not just let in more people to the alpha (if its true that they need more testers), even if it's a very limited slice of the mmo. The 247 thing just requires too many mental gymnastics to really add up.
If they need alternate funding there's more straight forward compromises they could make, that stay closer to what the fan base actually wants. Why dogmatically draw a line in the sand at something like cosmetic microtransactions if the alternative is spinning off into an entirely different genre.
Almost 4k views and 322 likes rn...and no dislikes. We ❤ you Red. Thanks for an honest and transparent take on the state of Pantheon.
Oh there are dislikes
My observation is that MMOs are uniquely hard because they're competing against much higher paying industries for the VERY FEW experienced, competent, available devs who truly know how to build network layers and complex, realtime, asynchronous messaging with massively scaled persistence.
99% of those devs get pulled into finance, banking and telecom, all of which easily pay multiples more in comp.
What happened to the Baz flash guy?
Very well said Red! I Do Not Like 247, Sam-I-Am.
Bounty! Thank you for your generosity and kind words.
What's really amazing is the history of Everquest and how quickly it was actually produced and released. I don't understand why a little crew back in the late 90s could produce an actual, full-fledged MMO in the blink of an eye, but with all the tech and resources and experience in the industry today, people can't produce a functioning game in 10 years.
For $20 you can go play Embers Adrift , no sub required. The small indie studio has nailed the old school EQ feeling and has filled all the content gaps from lvl 1-50. They are also soon adding magic, and its free to try for the next week by just making an acct. I highly recommend this game for those who have been waiting, and getting burned by Pantheon.
Yes you can, if you're satisfied with a crippled experience compared to your subscribing fellows. There are better MMORPG options available if one wishes to go the buy to play route.
@@kevinarnold8634 Please explain to me how its crippled. I have lvl 50 and 46. What is your experience with the current state of the game?
@@user-zv3dm4eh8fthere are 30-40 players playing and when they give a free monnth it barely has 90-100 people if that. There are like 4 classes and 1 race. Everyone looks the same. Theres no magic. I can go on for days. Its a meh experience.
idk any more if I put time and effort and money into vision a which was promised and then boom here vision b under the same title which isn't what I put my time and effort towards feels scammy
I was kind of the opinion that this project died with Aradune did it not?
I would enjoy a meme video with the couple at the end of Titanic in the water, but the women has "copium" where her face is and jack has "jack+pantheon" for a face... she starts blowing the whistle while the rescuing backer boat is looking for survivors. Grim but it somehow fits. Always a sad moment when good dreams sink out of sight and you are left looking around for a place to continue.
As an actual Pantheon backer, it's over man. Bought into the hype years ago. Nothing to show for it and somehow it keeps getting worse.
I found it fishy that they spent 10 years doing nothing and when a decision was made, they came up with new art and produced a game in a matter of weeks. The motive of VR is to stay employed so they can keep paying themselves for as long as possible. This is the only legal way to move crowdfunding money into their pockets. Releasing a bad game would end that cycle. But it probably got to the point where they were worried about being sued if they didn't release something. The long development cycle of games needs to end now. If a movie took 10 years to make, it would be a disaster. We need to stop backing proof of concepts. Pantheon is proof positive you can not crowdfund an MMORPG.
Absolutely right.
We all came from the age of true passion of game devs. The original devs of WoW made an awesome game from scratch (not lore or art wise) Sure they had a massive amount of money to throw at it but the major thing they had was passion. You can't tell me these people have the same level of passion as the Greats of the MMORPGs. All i see with startups like Pantheon is a lackluster dev with little passion for the game.
The facts speak for themselves. Devs of everquest? Major nerds and very passionate developers. Ultima online? same thing. Dark age of camelot? same thing. World of warcraft at launch? Same thing. You can't bullshit me with "hard to make game" when these people did so much more with far less ease of use tools that modern devs have. Not only that but with Proof of concepts of almost every idea in the MMO market already. Devs have no excuse at this point in time to not learn from the mistakes of old and make a great game.
Can a crowdfunded MMORPG happen? Yes, they have. Embers Adrift is in a release state. Project:Gorgon is coming along. Both are continually available to play. Can a crowdfunded AAA MMORPG happen? Not as of yet. The key for success to date has been to keep the project modest, at least in comparison to those that have either now failed or are seemingly close. Star Citizen may be the only exception to that if it should some day be released.
And Albion online. I think that's a big distinction you mentioned. A crowdfunded mmo versus a triple a mmo. Perhaps it's our expectations as well as company aspirations that need a sort of reality check.
Star citizen at this point has double a triple a budget so it kind of remains the outlier.
I support Embers monthly and enjoy the game...as a temporary thing. It's not my MMO home and never will be.
But please read the history of Embers and how their release went before you use that as an example, though. Embers has suffered from releasing an unfinished game and is still playing catch up and trying to overcome a negative perception and low population.
Project Gorgon is not on the same scale as Pantheon. I wish them well, but I'm not interested in playing it.
Pantheon is closer in scale to AAA MMOS and games like Ashes. You can criticize them for aiming so high, but the game is not a small project.
I would not have supported Pantheon in the manner I did and want it to be my MMO home like WoW was for a decade or more if it was a small-scale MMO like Embers or Project Gorgon. I don't think Pantheon would have the community it has or the support it had if it was a small-scale MMO like Embers or Gorgon. The tenets and scope of Pantheon combined with its Creator(and association with EQ) made Pantheon a bigger scale project. Even as a crowd funded game.
That's the nuanced difference folks don't acknowledge.
Very very well said. @@broquietstorm1266
Star Citizen has shown real progress in some of the details though. And we know they have picked up 200 million in funding. 200 million, lol. Not 2 million, 200 million.
Star Citizen? They have over 500 million. Pantheon is at about 5 million or so not including crowd-funding which isn't reported, CU is north of 20 million and Ashes made about 3.2 from their kickstarter and we have no idea how much they have from backers after that but they're up to 150 staff as of august 2023 per their livestream.
For anyone watching this video that feels burned on Pantheon. Realize there's games out there or experiences where you can still have fun. Embers Adrift which has that everquest feel, Project Quarm which is a private server for Everquest Vanilla but with quality of life stuff and iron man and hardcore modes as well as Project Gorgon all offer unique experiences where you can have fun and feel apart of the community in an old school way.
I’m a star citizen backer and pledged for Pantheon Rise Of The Fallen. I want people to push the boundaries and just make good games in their vision.
I believe that the star citizen model is going to work. All that matters is at the end of the day you get to make your game. You have to find a model that allows you to pull in the money and build out your game at the same time.
Star citizen was always a two game project. All backers knew that from the very start (if you did your homework). Chris Roberts created Wing Commander and this is a love letter to that past.
They just messed up their messaging on this. They should have never called this stand alone or say they might monetize it. If they just said this is a testing environment they would be considered geniuses as this is an amazing way to funnel testers into what you want tested. That's all this is. If you think about testing a giant MMO with a small player base it's almost impossible to get what you want tested in a timely manner. Having this hub and portal system with limited time allows you to push players exactly where you want them to test. Once that part is done you add it into pantheon as feature complete. It's actually really smart.
I’m reminded of one of my favorite sayings: “To buy unseen land, pay in unseen coin”.
These people completely changed the art style and lighting. I think this is a complete Joke without Brad Mcqaid.
10 years in development and they made a game with a 20 year old UI.. well done Pantheon team
You know why they aren't releasing the whole alpha. NDA is the only thing keeping this studio from burning to the ground.
Panic? No..Abandon this dumpster fire of an MMO? Absolutely
I am just totally bummed -- I am done with this game -- glad I never gave up on Everquest 2-- another year before they get back to the real game -- no just no, not waiting
I was a little upset about the redesign. Not because I didn't like the style, wanted it to be changed or whatever! I was upset that this game is still unfinished and they're stuffing around with an STYLE change? I don't have a game, finish the f'ing game already, THEN change the art style or whatever!!
I really can't disagree with anything that you said. I backed Pantheon years ago. I figured it would be a long shot that it would be completed with the scope that they talked about way back when. But what else can you do but bet on one of these Indie devs when all the major ones produce the same 💩 over and over again?
There are a few things VR is guilty of: To large of a scope given the size of the team, Craptastic communication, over estimating their capabilities (and maybe that of the tech they were using) and mismanagement. I love their passion. I love that they are trying everything they can to get this done as soon as possible but I think if they try to monetize 247, its going to destroy what any goodwill they still have in the community. I get why 247 exists to some extent, but It should only be used for testing purposes. I can't see it bringing in the kind of funding they need to hire the amount of staff they need to complete the current scope of the MMO in only a few years. They are going to have to compromise in some way: Get a publisher and risk alienating the backing player base because you know monetization is going to be a port of that deal or they shrink the scope of the game down. I think if they shrink the scope down to Kingsreach, polish the crap out of and release just that continent, that it would hold over the community long enough to get the other 2 continents(along with those race/class combos) done as individual free expansions(for backers). While hopefully making enough off of new players. Just one guys opinion on the matter.
I’ve mentioned this before on another video but I really do feel without Brad at the helm this game was destined to fail. This was his baby, nobody else was going to guide it to the finish properly but him.
Just give me an EQ1 remake with EQ2 crafting.
That’s all I want.
I always defended Pantheon against the haters. Despite so much of the criticism they received I understood the challenges of building an indie MMORPG and always tried to have faith in the creators. I even invested over $1000 in the game. Sadly the game they've been showing off recently has transitioned so far off the mark that I feel like I can't defend them any longer - it almost seems like a catfish or prank. It's left me so utterly disappointed, not just because the critics were right and I got scammed, but also because of what damage this will do to any future indie games and because I've had to give up on the game I was so looking forward to playing some day.
I think all of those feelings are absolutely valid. It's tough to swallow and you really hit on it with the last point. If Pantheon and Ashes fail, I kind of think Indie MMOs of any large scope are kind of done. Star Citizen is it's own thing with its ridiculous budget and having been kind of "first."
@@Redbeardflynn I think the best way for any future MMORPG's to be developed is by using the method that Monsters & Memories is using. They've put years of volunteer hours into the development of a "proof of concept" before they've ever asked for a dollar. It seems much smarter to get the players into the game and expand it around them than it does to build a huge MMORPG from scratch.
Thanks for the video and for replying to my comment! Have a great day :)
I wrote this off, as soon as I saw the art style change.... which means they have to restart on a lot of things... meaning it's being pushed back on completion. And by the time it comes out, it will be DOA , especially if it is a pay to play model. Everyone that was interested, and possibly a hardcore player, is now moved on, and the game isn't even slightly close to being completed. The fact they are switching it to a "survival" game, is telling me people are jumping ship, and funds are running out. The amount of time and money to render it in their previous engine, would be far more than what they have, it seems.
Back to EverQuest we go... and by the looks of it, I am willing to bet that EQ3 will come out BEFORE this is completely shut down.....
Once McQuaid passed away, the original designer/lead developer, I knew it was over. The game, sadly, went with him.
*The game is dead*
There won't be a MMORPG, it will be a watered down "ARK" - if it lives that long..... which I doubt, highly doubt....
I gave two grand for this .... two $1,000 packages.
And now we get this .... wasn't what I bought into, at all ....
RIP McQuaid
Great video Red. I agree and partake in the frustration, but I also run a software development team and understand the hard choices that must be made sometimes. VR certainly has a lot of room to grow on the communication front though. There are some key things they can do and last night's Q&A was one of them.
If you ran a software dev team, then you'd know based on the evidence (more like lack of evidence) and announcements theyve made in their history, that this was most likely vaporware and a massive fraud for a very long time. Now confirmed.
Their 247 update and change in direction is to avoid lawsuits by giving a product so they cant be convicted for fraud. Bc it was fraud.
I have over a decade experience making video games, and even single handledly wrote all the codebase for an open world survival game I developed with a small team. This type of server/client structure is nearly identical in many ways to a MMORPG. It does take a long time to write this code (in terms of months, not years, for 1 person) and it is frustrating how literally almost any features you add have to touch this code (so you cant just turn a singleplayer game into a MMO, you basically would have to write an entirely new game). However VR never even had a singleplayer prototype to share. They never had much of anything.
I, by myself, could take 6 months to use some unity assets (gfx) to make a prototype and pretend it is some MMO alpha. That doesnt even mean the netcode supports Massive player numbers.
This is a scam. Fraud. Whether malicious fraud or gross incompetence that lead to fraud to cover up the spending. Idk.
It is possible to make a good crowdfunded game. Remember Cuphead? The problem is when people turn into Peter Molyneux in order to get backing. You promise the sun, moon, and ALL the stars when your dev team isn't even double digits in size. MMOs are expensive. Ask Raph Koster or Travis McGeathy. It's at the level of Hollywood blockbuster at this point, for anything more complex than Horizons (oh sorry, Istaria). If you don't have at least $50 million, have a seat. In fact, have several seats. But then they make the promises and "Oh it's gonna be this" "It's gonna be that", "hardcore" (cutting out 70% of your potential userbase), etc. It was one thing when you had the cachet of Brad (such as it was) but you don't have that now. I've said the same thing since Brad passed: Pantheon is vaporware until it actually releases (assuming it does). The longer they take to at least get to early access, the more out of step with the market they'll be. A lot's changed in the MMO market since 2016.
I got the solution guys! Everyone buy a lotto ticket once a week, put some winning their way. A jackpot means we’ll get pantheon within the next decade!
Jokes aside, hope that this comes to fruition! Good video dude
Haha lotto tickets, always a great investment, huh? But are they NFT lotto tickets?
RE: why not alpha access instead of 247?
I think we're dodging the tough question here - and that is, is there even a playable version of the game that is alpha worthy?
Is there a zone ready? Maybe, probably..?
But are there two zones ready? From the small listing off that I was hearing in the Discord meeting - to me, it feels like it's hard to have confidence that there are even a handful of "ready" zones for an alpha worth having.
From what I can tell - although it's admirable and certainly a worthy goal - they simply have been setting their sights too high when it comes to detail.
Look at that concept art in your vid for the animals - look at all of the detailed words written, pointing to various areas like Tusks and Hair on the boar, and what those features do.
This is great for a book - but damn, is it hamstringing-ly over-detailed for development of an MMO.
At the end of the day - we're going to kill those boars and not give a crap about the thoughtful function of their body features other than, "does it look cool?"
Consider the orcs in Everquest. Are we analyzing their teeth or lack thereof?
This is just a small example of the type of development I've seen over all the years this game has been being made.
I will still remember the stream where Chris talked about the pattern design on the edge of a carpet that was in a building they were showing - telling the cultural significance to this pattern. I was hearing it and thinking... holy crap... they can't be serious that they're operating at this sort of level - they have a huge world and this is a carpet in a building.... this will never be completed with this style of micro-design.
And here we are.... out of money and out of time.
I'm cheering for them - still. But man... I think you nailed it when you said "I don't think they realized what they were getting themselves into".
I can verify - this is the case.
Brad was the idea guy on EQ and Vanguard. His vision inspired the teams. But someone else was helping reel that in and get it out the door.
They're missing that on Pantheon and will fail without it.
Well said.
This is why producers, project managers and directors are important!!
Sure, a small team of talented developers may have the technical skills to create an MMO but that’s NOT enough to make a successful product.
They need someone with experience who knows how to keep the team focused on progressing forward.
The way you described this basically sounds like they're doing what so many other developers are doing...mashing two genres together and calling it new. This sounds like Tarkov...but Pantheon skinned. Just like Valorant is Counterstrike...with MOBA champs. Or Overwatch is Team Fortress with MOBA champs.
The more I've thought about it, especially after their QA, it almost sounds closer to like...hardcore wow extraction? I dunno it's hard to put into words until people can play it without an NDA.
I would takes these graphics and run with it as long as game play is EQ-ish, group-centric game as it was originally promised. The part that pisses me off is the game has been funded to release for the last 5 years. But then always keep begging for more money.... Sorry. I have lost all hope. This game is never releasing.
From the start, they wanted to do WAY too much. They needed to make a lev 1-40 game. One continent. One starting area. Just mobs, quests, dungeons and a single starter raid. keep it simple. Add more later. But they wanted to add everything that was in most games after 3 expansions. Why do they keep hiring people if they are broke? minus and this new woman that isn't a real community manager.
Honestly at this point I think Pantheon exists more to allow people to pretend they are mmorpg developers and some content creators to feel like they are special. People are just paying Visionary Realms to live out their dreams. As frustrated as Red is... He's going easy on them.
This is why a couple of people (whose names escape me at this point) have compared the Pantheon community to a cult.
They’re simply attempting to avoid a lawsuit with 247. This game will never see the light of day. They have basically no one even making it anymore…
I still hope Pantheon comes out as the developers seem very genuine in their attempt to bring back an old-school experience. My approach is that you should never put more money into a Kickstarter than you're willing to lose... its like gambling. If it fails but they've genuinely tried to deliver, then you have no right to ask for your money back.
Around the 7:50 mark you talk about the amount of work that goes into an MMO.....I don't think I've seen a single project since crowd funded MMOs started learn the lesson of scope creep. Everquest and WoW both released in fundamentally flawed states, and some of the jank ended up being the parts of those games we loved most, but the vast majority of it was insufficient funds, time, or human resources to attend to every single problem, much less implement defining features to stand apart from the crowd.
Like I love that, when these teams talk about "We need a feature to stand out from the crowd! How about a fully integrated perception system that expands the concept of how discovery can work in an MMO!"
Bruh what crowd? You could stand out in the MMO genre by releasing. Literally have half a game, and release. You'd be the only one. I'd be willing to bet there are at least 100,000 people willing to pay a $10-14 subscription to play one of these without all the scope creep. That's a million in a month, there's your budget. Build off that, maybe you do add unique features, build out more classes or more land to explore or more content in starting areas so you don't make the world you built obsolete (looking at you WoW), then maybe you attract a slightly larger crowd, maybe 250,000 or more want to play your game. The amount of money people are clearly willing to spend on the idea of these games, if you just released something for them to play there's an apparent healthy niche nostalgic market that could be earning someone millions a month in subscription fees. Camelot unchained, a decidedly niche product in this niche market has raised what $4 million and been announced for 11 years now? RvR is not the draw that an everquest nostalgia hit would be, but you can't tell me that there weren't 3,000 people willing to pay $12.99/month to play that something even half finished that didn't have C.U.B.E. That's what it would have taken to hit $4 million in that span. 3,000 people subscribing and enjoying a game for 11 years. hell double that and you could release the game in 2019 and with 6,000 subscribers you hit the $4 million they've raised.
We don't need these companies, or ourselves, to understand the great work that goes into an MMO, they need to understand that what they can build out of crowdfunding is likely enough to get people to buy in. We nostalgia seekers are older, have disposable income, there are quite a few of us who would only be able to play 8 hours a week max and still say the sub fee is worth it. with that, you build upon the dream, you add scope, and systems. maybe 10-15 years ago when these games were first being imagined there was a higher barrier to entry. we're like 10 failed projects and 20 years into this, people are ready to just play something.
To be fair to Squadron 42/Star Citizen - Wasn't SQ42 the original idea of the kickstarter? A modern generation's X-Wing/Wing Commander that evolved into multiplayer then MMO + single player campaign?
This is the reason I won’t put into any kickstarter/funding anymore. Got burned by Camelot Unchained & eternal crusade years ago.
Well said. I am right there with you. I’m a VIP and I’m worried about where this will all end up. I have hope still but it’s getting harder as time goes on to stay positive
Thank you WIseBeardFlynn. My fears are the same. Players have seen this time and time again with other games. Even though its not a separate game, it reeks of past mistakes made by other studios. And yes. You cannot put a good spin on this. People will see it or hear about it and go nope. Not falling for that again. And yes, I also feel the desperation. And it saddens me. I really want VR to succeed and give us the game we want. Not so sure anymore.
I still say, open beta and anyone who pledged charge a $1 a month subscription and anyone who didn't charge a couple more. Boom a steady monthly income for VR to make the game we want.
I found this very fair to everyone involved, good work! I’ve been following Pantheon since maybe 2016 though I haven’t supported it financially. I *really* hope they can make this work, but I think it will take a publisher and everything that entails to make it happen.
Assuming you'll have a follow up after the Discord discussion? Some of your points seem to have some additional context to consider, i.e. the need for 247 to test things because our (the player) behavior is to focus on the MMO progression during testing, leaving certain things untested - this resonated with me as yet another headwind to development of MMOs that feels like it gives credibility to why they need this mode. Keeping that entirely separate from the conversation around the need to secure a reliable influx of new funding, which they clearly indicated is a real need and consideration for them. Appreciate your informed and balanced coverage of this!
It didn't start as a scam but it is becoming one. Once Brad passed away Chris a man who shouldn't be heading this up is now in charge. I think he wanted to silently pivot from what they did with Brad to his vision and it's not working. They got a leak about 247 and had to scramble to "announce it".
They've taken people's money for 10 years and the first 4 to 6 things were looking slow but overall great. Now it's the art style, the focus on the extraction mini game / testing tool. Which I think they wanted to flesh out more before revealing. I think they got caught with their pants down.
Should be out in Early Access like Project Gorgon. No excuses for 10 years of wasted time.
The only way to save Pantheon is for a publisher to come in and take control.
247 was misbranded, and should have been called "Corpse Run" instead.
Something that gets me is say how FFXIV's 1st release was sooo bad everybody said it would destroy the FF series all together. They went into full reboot mode and told everybody playing that you're welcome to keep playing this version of the game but know that this version will disappear in a couple years. So we got to keep playing and as we keep playing they kept doing improvements to the servers and everything I'd compare it to about ember's adrift style of always improving something to keep people positive. Why can't Pantheon just understand that in todays world they have to just prerelease the game and let the hardcore mmo people play it shit I mean they could prerelease it for $100 USD and sale probably over 1000 copies at the start EASILY! Which would get them more funding and they could still put a $10 month sub on it and just keep developing the game at their current snail pace and be fine people would love to have a MMO that's dedicated to improving like Embers Adrift and fun. I think they're just so stubborn and believe if they keep hiding it everybody will be so happy when it finally release's but all it's really going to do is give them such a high ceiling to live up to that no mater how good or bad the game is when it's released it will be considered a failure 100%
Pantheon is nothing like Ashes of Creation. Ashes of Creation is actually progressing regardless of that apocalypse thing. Because the guy running it is actually rich and funding it himself that game will actually come out Pantheon will never come out and if it does it will be dead on arrival. There is nothing good about Pantheon its bad in every way.
Agree with this, AoC will come out and I’m looking forward to it, weather it’s good time will tell.
When it comes to monetization, a “solid maybe” is game dev speak for 100% guaranteed.
SQ42 was part of the Kickstarter for Star Citizen (can still verify this on the KS page for the project). This would be more akin to CIG selling pledges to SC but instead of the Persistent Universe we just had Arena Commander mode.
Other than that, nailed it!
Thank you for the clarification, Ten. Its an important distinction.
Just an observation: I did not expect to see the amount of people I have who do actually believe SQ42 to be a newly-started distraction project seemingly akin to Kingdoms of Elyria, considering that Mark Hamill's involvement has already been known to gaming press for at least seven years, and the first teaser is partially (outside of CR's onscreen pitch) that of SQ42.
@@dy031101 I think it being in development hell for so long adds to that perception. I wasn't under the impression that it was brand new but I definitely should have put 2 and 2 together of a 2014 release date and a kickstarter in 2012 it could have been on the kickstarter.
Perhaps that's also why it hasn't received the same rancor, though it's still gotten its fair share.
@@Redbeardflynn The development hell is indeed something unexpected if only in terms of magnitude from my perspective, as I foresaw difficulties when I decided to vote yes on scope change, and my reason is as much driven by interest in his experiments as it is by the potential end results. I didn't expect it to last beyond CR's own estimations, but then technical difficulties seems to be part and parcel with early 21-century videogame development (I kinda think CIG is indie in name only, assuming it holds on to that title), and at least he has been giving us backers convincing indication that he and his teams are trying. So I didn't mind (that much).
Is it a scam no but I feel they are trying to cover there as buy at least releasing something playable I loved the progress I've been watching over the years but how many times do you have to restart. Games do cost money to develop but think about it 10yr has gone past and still barely any playable content. In the end I hate to say but they are taking what happened to Chronicles of Elyria after they dissolved. Please prove me wrong I hope I am
This video is identical to how victims of catfishing scams react when confronted with the fact they've been scammed.
Denial is a powerful drug.
Thanks for the explanation, the 247 seemed kinda weird. I think they could go for pledges and get newer people with it. I had put in a pledge for aoc before they did any of that pvp yuck. I hope they can come up with some sort of way to get money better.
I would give them support money if they decide to NOT change the art style. I have been looking forward to this development for a long time and that is part of the appeal of the game. I do not understand why there is so many people that want something cartoonish? There are other mmos that cover that. I would be afraid that with that style patheon would get lost among other mmos rather than stand out. I understand the time and modeling aspect. If they want to use this as a placeholder until the model graphics are done? That may work?
247 sounds like a (possibly) weak RPG version of an extraction shooter. Timer/can lose everything etc
It doesn't tickle my interest tbh. Disappointing news.
I thought they said years ago that they had enough funds to complete the game at that time??
I've been following and cheering for Pantheon for years, but my concerns started a long time ago. Not because of how long it was taking to develop, but for all of the innovations they were planning. Originally, I felt we were being marketed a spiritual successor to EverQuest in a way that no game created since has ever managed to be. But the insertion of new mechanics like the perception system (big red flags for me) harkened me back to countless other MMOs that had the same flashy buzzwords that failed to truly innovate and, instead, were held hostage by their own ideas. Enter the graphics change (of which I absolutely abhor) and 247, and I've just lost faith in their product. I've begun to think that no developer in this market truly understands what made EverQuest so good.
Everyone always thinks of one concept over all others when talking about EQ and what the market is missing: group-oriented gameplay. People throw that idea around a lot, and while everyone understands what it means, no one seems to be thinking about how to successfully implement it. The most obvious avenue would be combat, so let's briefly look at that... Combat in EQ is usually labeled slow due to the regen breaks between pulls and the simplistic auto-attack on/off style, but that was actually one of its greatest strengths in terms of group-oriented gameplay. Why? Because it fostered communication and socialization. In modern games, developers wanted combat to feel more exciting and engaging, and so they gave players a skill to execute at all times. This meant players were constantly pushing buttons and constantly killing mobs without any need to stop. If you have no reason to stop, you have no time to talk.
This is just one of the ways a fundamental design change altered the landscape of the genre as a whole, and we haven't even touched class structure and the approach to teamwork. Now, am I saying that in order to make a true group-oriented game, you must copy EQ's combat system? No. As much as I would like to see it happen someday, I'm sure that's not the only solution. I never had the privilege of playing Vanguard so I'm not sure how they handled it... But I am convinced that no game will ever capture lightning in a bottle the way EQ did if developers keep skirting the edge of the modern format and don't start taking risks.
And they need to stop blaming the landscape of gamers for their failures, claiming that "gamers are just so different now." That's a gross oversimplification at best, and a bald-faced lie in most instances. I have met so many people in p99 who never played EQ in the golden years, who have come from games like WoW at the behest of a friend, and they've LOVED it for all of the ways it was different and fostered group gameplay and socialization. Does that mean everyone will want to play this kind of game? Of course not. But there are far more people than they can fathom that will, that are starved for it.
But a lot of developers suffer under the delusion that if you simply make a system available to players, they will engage with it. This is not the case. We need motivation, and I don't mean the exhausting hamster wheel reward system developers use nowadays, the daily login campaigns begging for playtime, the in-game events, the cash shop sales. True motivation starts with game design. You said it best in another video when talking about EQ epics... It wasn't always fun, but at the end you felt truly accomplished. You'll remember it forever, and fondly. That's how I think about EQ as a whole. Not every system is flashy and engaging, but when everything comes together, it's so incredibly rewarding and I always look back on my time in Norrath and say it was the most fun I've ever had in an MMO.
Anyway, I'm terribly sorry for the overwhelmingly long comment... I could talk for days about this topic. Thank you for the video, for your perspective. I appreciate that you give your honest thoughts and don't pretend like nothing's wrong when something clearly is.