players have never tested games before mmos and especially tech became good enough that they "have to" do that for the company to get enough players to properly stress-test the games. the people that used to test games were professional testers, and they still do that, its called QA
You lost me at alpha 2 alpha 1 phase 3 test weekend 6 weeks to one year updates vassaling new tier, monetized 24/7 access stability scalability testing.
Oh boy - I’d love to see this game get released but lately I have had my doubts. I just don’t know what to think anymore - I remember the days of beta testers being the backbone of these games during the glory days of MMOs but now with games trying to get every cent they can from its customer base and honestly I’m not surprised to see this occurring. All I want is a new MMO (despite the fact that I don’t have as much time as I did when younger) to be successful and not insanely predatory. I don’t know if that’s a pipe dream but one can dream. One can dream…. Thanks for keeping us old fogies in the loop Flynn… 😊
Yeah. I remember when being jealous of people getting in a CBT for a mmorpg i wanted to test out. Nowadays they want us to pay to be their alpha testers, these players will think they're helping to fund for the development.
@@ryuno2097Not only that, all the work the devs put into keeping those beta testers happy. I still remember the end of the Asheron’s Call beta and it was such a frigging blast. Hell, dev events as a whole just seem like a thing of the past. There was so much interaction and community that existed in those early MMO days.
Its certainly a pipe dream in this day and age, a good dream but I'm doubtful. It would make them insanely successful if they don't rush, but more than likely they gonna take the easy money approach.
yo no tendré tiempo para jugarlo desafortunadamente y me planteo vender la cuenta, pero la alpha 1 fue de las experiencias más divertidas en un MMO que he vivido y eso que otros como amazon me pagaron por probar la beta de new world. la posibilidad de juntar 60 personas en un world boss y si no quieres a otros puedes iniciar un combate entre clanes por ese boss lo hacía mucho más divertido, igual que lo de evolucionar el nodo cosechando o matando mobs. Solo espero que la gente no sean tan críticos, es un proyecto que promete mucho y de momento cumple. :)
We have months before the beginning of the end of the world economically and safety., we have about 7-15 years before the end of this world and the start of the brave new world. Much like the end of the world back during the dark ages. Not sure economically this game or any will survive really. Most banks won't for sure. I think most of the world will be in survivor mode. Let's say I'm crazy (which I'm not just need to look at the state of the world, the worse of what's coming is in the bible) and I'm off 20 years or let's be optimistic and believe status quo for the world continues as it is, then I think the game will release in two to three years. Beta is going to run alongside of Alpha at the start of phase three of alpha. Which is in May 2025 so could release May 2026 or May 2027.
I agreed that for one key in one select phase of alpha two those prices were insane and I bought the pledge packages from before. now that they have changed it and upgrade the keys to include keys for beta 1 and beta 2 that is a very reasonable price. There shouldn't be any more complaints even though there probably will be to those who want to test the game this is the time to buy the keys to the alpha 2 and future tests. If you don't want to test the game, then wait until the release.
No company should be selling the ability yo test their products. And gamers should not be telling each other " that's reasonable" because I'm pretty sure this isn't about getting player feed back. If they were serious about that they wouldn't be expecting people to pay them to test their game.
It was relieving that the keys we purchase from wednesday will include everything from alpha 2 to month 1 of release, but you have to look at the fact this project has no publishers and server time for the alpha when hosting 100k+ players is EXPENSIVE like $780,000+ a year (around 65c per concurrent player per month just for the server time) so for just alpha (18 months) thats 1.17million+ and thats just for Alpha 2 - just think how much longer until release say 4 years and it will be persistant 24/7 from May 1 till release - so it will end up costing about $50 of your $120 in server costs alone.. I wasnt happy with paying $120 for alpha 2 access only, but now im quite content paying $70 to the development of the game, knowing i can test and play the game through apha 2 (with some restrictions early on) and beta 1 & 2 and first month of release with no additonal costs until 2029, Think of alpha access to many games on kickstarter is about $45-55 at the moment (example Outbound - non MMO means no persistant server costs) so even if you wait till May 1 for alpha 3 at $100 it will still cost you about $45 in server costs and then you are only paying $50 to the devs for the game access so all for a 90M$ mmo with no publisher completely backed by players and privately funded. I think $100 (or $120 for earlier access is not much).. just my opinion
These changes are good. I was really worried when they weren't including access to beta if you bought alpha access. That was insane. This is still insane, but it's much more tolerable knowing that if I buy into this, I'm in until it goes live. This might have been their plan all along as others have pointed out in the comments. At the end of the day, if ~$100 gets me into testing all the way until we see Live, yeah I'm probably in.
I think Pantheon is calling it seasons, along with terms like "early access" to paint the development with terms familiar with a more progressed product. Essentially, it's still in the same state of development with a new coat of paint and broken up into 6 week snack-size bites.
This seems like a pretty classic case of "let's release something completely absurd. If we get away with it, we can laugh our way to the bank. If we don't, we can pretend we listen to our community and go towards what the actual model was going to be. It will still be ridiculous, but they'll think we're the good guys and that their feedback matters". The negative PR that's generated by major content creators from the initial awful decision then turns to positive PR which has reached 100x the audience thanks to the coverage. Meanwhile, you're still paying them to test their game.
I’m just gonna say you haven’t been in the ashes community long. Steven and employees at intrepid are known to watch and comment on comment creators videos. Also to me they saw negative feedback and made a change. I know you’re probably not normalized to that since very few games do that. If you do need and evidence of interactions with employees and Steven in the community just let me know!!
@@RyguyRB And how can an indie company make an MMO of this scale if they're not charging people to test the game? Pricing is not just about getting as much money as you can. It is also about gating the number of folks being able to play at one time. It's not a binary thing.
@@broquietstorm1266 I don't think "Indie" Company is a decent description of them. They have 200+ employees and an office in California. Their running costs are over 90M/year. The money they make from this isn't going to mean anything. They are just trying to make sure the people that sign up are least semi-serious about testing not just coming in to try out the game.
First of all, it's not to play the game. It's not a release of the game at all. This is an investment of the game if you feel you are invested in the success of the game. You will only be a non-shareholder investor to give feedback of a test. No need to be negative or hateful because you're not being forced to test the game. Wait for the release of the game if you want to play the game. Then you only pay a subscription.
I confess it was more than a little satisfying to tell the Ashes chat that now they knew what it was like to be "Pantheon Patient." I've actually backed both games for the same amount, and will be getting a lot more hours testing Pantheon than Ashes through the end of the year, and probably beyond.
I think lawless zones are okay if placed right. Example As nearby nodes level the lawless zone shrinks and if a node down grades the lawless zone grows.
Don't know about you but I don't really talk finance with a game developer that has already spent close to 100million, at least not in a negative way to say they are bleeding money. This is a R&D company right now, there are no profits just losses so there is no bleed as there was nothing to bleed. Simply put they are looking for investors who are going to contribute through testing and the monetary value you pay to do this. You can't have investors if there is no quid pro quo so the testing is their consideration and the amount you pay is your consideration. When the game is released then the game switches from R&D company to a for profit company or a retail company. Then if they spend more than they make then its considered bleeding money. If you want to invest with the hopes of success, then pay the fee. It's not a donation so you can't take it on your taxes as a deduction. I think this game will come out sometime shortly after May 2025 or no more than one year following as they need to turn some profit from the R&D.
Braver Of World Tier here, I don’t have to worry about the subscription since mine is lifetime, but I’m hoping this game isn’t going to be dead on arrival
To avoid upsetting the "Core" people who purchased Founder’s Packs way back, it’s essential to recognize that for those individuals, for those ppl the price point is valid. The packs have been available for a long time, and probably same ppl previously complained that they were too expensive. From the developers’ perspective, fostering a positive community is ideal.. Its an effective way to stop the critics/troll at the gates already.. 120$ for atleast a year of ingame time, I can see it is valuable for some people. Alot of us have seen games in a even worse state been released many times in the past.
A 3 month subscription towards the game on release feels like it would have been the appropriate return on “investment”. After all, it’s supposed to be a two-way street here. Yes, the player gets early access BUT ALSO they’re testing the game for you. As it stands, it feels like a predatory scheme towards those who are already on board. “You’ve already spent 10 years and ‘X’ amount of money. What’s another $110 on top of it?” It makes me wary of future monetization. If the developers are trying to take advantage of the community before launch, what will happen after launch? I’d think the devs would be “showering” prospective players with generosity: early access, skins, special privileges, etc. This definitely makes me more cautious moving forward with AoC.
Without that $110 how are they already on board? Because they kept up with livestreams? No, those who already spent $250 are on board and they are not the ones complaining about $110 alpha keys because they already have it because of their $250. The people complaining are those who AREN'T onboard but want to get on now when alpha 2 is imminent and they want on at a lower price point with the same benefits.
@@Athasin Intrepid studios has raised over $3 million since 2017 from investors in this game. Most of the people that paid the $250 have already thrown a bunch of money at the devs to help them create this game. Same goes to people jumping in at $110.
@@Z-MACx "Most of the people that paid the $250 have already thrown a bunch of money at the devs to help them create this game." Yes, and those are NOT the same people expected to pay $110 for an alpha key because they already have their alpha keys thanks to the $250. The same DOES NOT go for those jumping in at $110 because if they're jumping in at $110 they are original backers because original backers already have an alpha key. Like I said, how is Intrepid being predatory to those already on board when those already on board are NOT the ones being asked for $110 for an alpha key? If anything Intrepid is being fair to their original backers by NOT offering bandwagoners the same benefits for a lower cost with alpha 2 right around the corner.
@@Athasin They've been asking people to invest in the game for the last 8 years. And now they're asking players to invest another $110. That's a lot of money for the average person.
@@andylarkin5779lmao who are you? Also no you didn’t lmao. Alpha 2 access so far has been 250+ until these keys. Also was stating i get on oct because of when i bought mine dumb fuck.
I still think people have too high of expectations. This game will be awesome. I think we should let the devs do what devs do, and patiently wait. I’d rather wait for gold than be given brass
I really do feel like Ashes has a higher potential than some other games to be crushed under the weight of expectations. Too many players not looking at it like an Indie MMO and instead "the salvation for MMOs"
Some peoples brass is others gold and so forth. People will get out of it what they put into it. If they put negative emotion into it, they will get negative experience from it and vis versa.
Ive been arguing with brainless intrepid defenders since this announcement, basically saying they need to add the beta access and some extras to it. They should have just brought the 250 dollar pack back, or something similar, and sold the key pack as well. But this is a good change regardless ans im glad the team listened to reason. Thank you intrepid and steven.
It makes me think they need a new PR person. The live announcement was rather chaotic and should have been handled differently. With the clarifications now it looks better and i will most likely be participating, but it depends on one thing - how stable it will be in phase 1.
Why should they be paid testers? I have never heard of anyone paying someone outside of an organization to test the product. Unless the product could cause harm such as experimental drugs. Was there one case in game development that this was the case? If so, I would say it's not the rule but the exception.
I think if you consider the fact the game is subscription. And you have an opportunity to pay early aub in one sum lump for early access. I think considering many games have monitization of ptw and there are a lot of investors that spend a lot of money up front to invest in monetized games knowing they will make money when the game when it launches through ptw and cosmetic monetization. That being said paying an years worth of subscription upfront to help launch a non ptw game could be worth it on 2 conditions: It does not end up having ptw down the road The production doesn't keep getting dragged on with vapor ware drag on going way beyond what they say it will take to develope. So my basic viewpoint is if paid testing helps produce the game sooner without ptw within a year or so it seems fine in my eyes. The fact that these new keys only provide access without the perks for pre purchased perks I think is a way to not betray the initial investment of the pre existing pledges while helping the game come to fruition sooner. I would think that if all they were doing was helping to speed up production without providing the perks that came with the original pledges that some people would be happy tho some may not and that's u derstandable. On the other hand of they are grabbing money for testing and the game keeps dragging on for 2, 3, 4, 5 years with no end game in sight then yes it seems not so transparent and how people would wonder if the game will end up being vapor in the end and they are just trying to grab as much money as they can on empty / undelivered promises. Unfortunately for this part only time will tell.
The alpha 2 will carry on when the betas are released. I am fairly sure most of the people crying about a beta package with the key do/did not know this.
They're letting so many people in alpha/beta there's going to be no secrets left in the game. There's already going to be a meta setup with the classes for PvP and raiding. This is way too many people "testing" the game. Which let's be honest most of these aren't testers that are going to actively searching for bugs. No they're going to go play the game. Honestly some people are going to use it to figure out ways to exploit the economy and other things.
Yes, I agree that a majority of the individuals who are playing for access to the alpha test are not doing it to help improve it. They just gonna play the game. It just scummy that the dev are selling access to "test" there game. It not about gaining player feed back let be honest and the dev know the people paying foe access are more than likely not doing it to help improve the experience. That is the thing that burns my ass. And gamers should not justify this. Like, come on people your telling me you're completely OK with a development team charging you to test their game?
@@xXMapcoXx Original WoW release was so cool because no one knew anything. Steven is throwing the whole point of making this new world if there's already going to be guides all over the internet for everything. I was hoping this was going to be like the first time going into WoW experience with most people not completely understanding their classes and many other things in the game. With 100,000+ people testing this for nearly a year they're going to beat out every secret and create a bunch of net talent builds. The people who were in this are going to know all the fastest ways to make gold and ruin the economy for the rest of us. I was so hopeful for this game and yeah I'm still going to try it but they totally just scrapped an opportunity to make a new MMO full of mysteries.
Maybe, but maybe the moon is made of cheese. What's the point. There would be complaints if they let too few in and the game release turns out to be like New World. The point is that the gaming community is Schizophrenic, and you can't win with them. They are instant gratification, selfish and complaining sheep. Yes, you have to beware of scams, but buyers beware has always been a thing. Why complain about something you haven't played yet or may or may not play. The way I figure it those who will try and look for ways to cheat, exploit (cheat) and test the game are also the ones that will burn through the content and leave the game in a year. So, if you plan to play long term there is really nothing gained or lost here by this.
What did yall expect? They selling keys to people that want to get in that otherwise wouldnt have gotten in. So i think thats better than not getting to try it at all. Personally im not payimg them any money until the game comes out or maybe a pretty polished beta comes out. But to get mad that they want you to pay money for a alpha when you wouldnt have gotten a key otherwise is crazy.
Camelot Unchained is selling a game engine to investors, this is a bit different. A functional incomplete game for testers versus an engine for investors.
@@Redbeardflynn More in the line of a very hyped product that I don't feel will ever deliver what is hoped or promised. I'll never be able to circle the square of having to pay to test a game, but I generally find that someone wanting to do that (and to cash in now) has very little faith in the product they're making, ala, camelot unchained.
The thing you have to remember is that the people that paid 250 got 6 months of in game time so you have to weigh it accordingly with the higher tier packages.
Thats roughly $42 dollar a month value. The play test of $120 is a $10 or less monthly value. Those who paid the $250 also test so it's about even really. People are acting like they are getting nothing for something. They are actually getting consideration for a contract in which you promise to give feedback. It's an investment.
Far as I know they've always said they'll have a cosmetic store with no p2w. It's in their earliest pledges as far as I know because those had store credits.
not quite, donations are something given with no consideration the other party does not have to perform. This is a contract for investment. You give consideration in the value of $120 and Ashes gives consideration and performs which is the testing period you enter. Both sides perform. No definition of donation here.
Lol I know how you feel. I'm holding off on investing in these games. I had high hopes for pantheon rise of the fallen and ashes of creation both taking much longer than expected. I'll be glad if either actually come out. Ut I'm not holding my breath any more. Now a days I just come back maybe twice a year to see what's happening.
Game will more than likely not release at this point until 10 to 12 years after the kickstarter. It’s an alpha test. I’m not sure why anyone would be upset just wait it’s a long ways out still unfortunately.
@@Redbeardflynn No box price as in, the game is free, but you just need to pay for subscription? I love that. I am not a fan of micro-transactions, even cosmetics purchases. My preference is always subscriptions for MMOs. Honestly I don't mind games that allow to spend real money for in game currency as that just kills off the gold farmers.
@@74arcath Then do like Intrepid said and DON'T buy in to the testing. They've already hired internal testers which are getting paid and are under NDA. You just simply cannot get the data needed for an MMO on just a few hundred testers.
Then don't, just like Intrepid told you not to. They don't need you. Thats why they cut off alpha 2 keys in the first place. 95%+ people will not be testing this game and we all know it. They will just play it like its early access.
Yep, that is usually the case is it not? Unless you test an experimental drug that might be harmful but that's not the case here. I don't see this as paying to test. Instead, I see testing as consideration for your investment. Otherwise, you're donating which has other effects on the company receiving those funds (that is my deductive reasoning) instead they are exchanging your investment with testing which gives consideration on both ends and will have another effect on those funds. You will be a non-shareholder investor meaning you don't get dividends, or any payout of bankruptcy occurs instead your paid upfront with testing time.
So let me get this logic straight in case im getting it wrong. People are mad they have to pay $100 for Alpha2(which will last at least a year) you get alpha, beta, and 1 month free + 15$ ember for skins when the full release of the game essentially having test/play time of 1-2 years for $100. You can stop playing and come back any time during that when more stuff is added(in Phase 3 when its more of a completed look of the game, and... people are mad about that?... Using BG3 as an example, those same people probably bought Baldurs Gate 3 for 80$, played for a total of roughly 40-60 hours and never touched it again. But its "worth it for the amount of play time you get" The prices and what you get for the amount of playtime/testing you get, I dont really see a problem tbh. Even the 1 month free sub is potentially 40+ hours worth of game time assuming playing 2 hours a day MAX
It adds extra to it when the game has no box price. BG3 which you mentioned had a box price, buying early access bought the game. The idea here *would* have been paying just for testing (and its testing, not game access, at least per their very own marketing for it) Adding Post-Launch gametime is essential here, at least imo, or the optics and the reality of it is people paying to *test* the game not to *play* a full game. It cant be marketed and stressed as being a testing phase on one hand and then sold as game access on the other side. Intrepid has been clear its testing. The change they made after the outcry was necessary. I still think it should be more given the pricing and how it compares to other Crowd-funded MMO but it at least alleviates the most frustrating part some.
Crowdfunding is voluntary and widely accepted. However, charging for an Alpha version is not. I have no doubt that this decision will cause them to lose respect, goodwill, and a significant number of players. These options offer poor value for money and clearly demonstrate a lack of respect for their player base. At worst, this behavior reflects greed; at best, it shows a delusional approach.
Ah yes, clarification. Because saying the Alpha 2 keys were only for Alpha 2 was just bad wording and didn’t mean the only thing it could possibly mean.
It is a crowdfunded mmo but yes Steven has said he would supplement it with his own money if necessary yes. But it is 100% a crowdfunded mmo. If it wasn't and they were asking for Pledges that would be infinitely more problematic
@@Redbeardflynn so far it's 33% crowdfunded (30mil) and 66% self-funded (60mil) And why would it be problematic if they offer ways to support the game before the release? Everyone does that, even AAA studios
@@Redbeardflynn He actually invested 30 million dollars of his own money so it is most definitely not 100% crowd funded also if you watched this whole stream he even broke down the numbers and tells us. Why he wants this game to succeed because of the money he invested he stands to lose more than anyone else if this game fails. That is the only reason i have hope in this game because he wants it to be the best it can be. He himself took great risk in making this game and takes great risks if it fails.
They can sweeten it up any way they want, they're still charging over 100$ to spot test an alpha. Incredibly brazen, and what's even more incredible is how many people are defending them for it. Years ago I feel like the entirety of the 'gamer' community (or at least the vast majority) wouldn't have stood for something like this. We're all getting so acclimated to everything being monetized and it's a sad, depressing state of affairs. That said, people need to chill on the FOMO, and I had to check myself as well. I want to play this game so damn bad, but the reality is that we're looking at at LEAST another two years of testing. I was 30 when Ashes went into development, and I'll be 40 by the time it releases. This better be the best MMO ever made, and it's not even close, or a lot of people are going to be incredibly disappointed.
@@broquietstorm1266 Easy. You have Alpha based on being a backer and then submit applications to join as a tester. With server bashes open for all backers. So everyone gets a chance to play at certain time. For Beta, you ramp up the population and server bashes for stability testing. Start with 1/4 the population. Then 1/2. Finally a few months before launch, all backers. That way you pay to dev the game, not to playtest for 100s of bunch. They are having microtransactions and monthly fees. So you don't need to charge for testers.
@@Expertspecter I find it interesting you speak like you've developed an MMO of this scale and KNOW how much money they need to develop it. They have a building to maintain and a staff of over 200 people with a great many of those folks(programmers, IT, management, etc., making over 6 figures) Do you sincerely have a grasp of what that is? If is far from an "EASY" task. I can appreciate the community asking for changes and Intrepid complying. But, some of the "recommendations" folks in the community have are questionable to me.
@@broquietstorm1266 Do you? I'll turn that back on you then. Simple Question. When have you done any of this and why does it matter what my thought is for a monetization method when they LITERALLY said this isn't a normal method and is in fact a novel idea.
@Expertspecter I made it my business to spend time sincerely researching game development since I backed an MMO (not Ashes, though). I even dabbled with the Unity game engine for a number of years. Not I said dabbled, not actually make a game. Game development is profoundly different from actually playing a game. Far too many think because they played MMOS for 10-20+ years, they are qualified to tell studios how they should be made. There are a prodigious amount of things that go on behind the scenes that the average and pro gamer never knew about. It's not a linear process, nor is it just solely about good business decisions. It is also about producing the equivalent of art and other disciplines. This Q&A about Alpha Two was very insightful about the process if you were following it from that perspective and not just as a consumer. I'm watching Ashes as a neutral party, not as a "fanboi"(I don't care for the term and only use it for context) I only ever watch the monthly streams and RedBeard's videos because he is also a part of the Pantheon community. I'm not in Ashes forums, Discord, etc. I'm following Ashes in my quest to understand game development. I am still undecided if I will actually play it one day. I will end with this emphasis. Playing games is profoundly different from developing one.
Economist speaking here. Two things. First: they get revenue= quantity X price. Second thing: let's plot price (vertical axis) and dedication (flakines/quality) of a tester (horizontal axis). The higher the price the more dedicated and better tester you get. Lower the price = more common to have person that thinks he/her is buying a game, go in, go mad, comment and make videos that AoC is bad. Now let's talk about AoC specific situation here - hype for the game is huge! When people are hyped the quality/price relationship changes. You have more people that want to play the game instead of testing it properly, you have more flakey people. Price point from which you get dedicated enough people/good quality testers moves upwards toward higher price. I'm not saying they don't get money from this, it's obviously their motivation, but for long term success of the game they also need to filter people they allow to test. We don't have the data and maybe they don't want to go the route of shitting on their alpha 1 testers for being not dedicated enough and being useless in terms of tests.
for how long? The expectation is that the game will launch, and you will get the game. Although there is no guarantee of anything, and the world might end economically in which case there will be no game in the end.
How you figure it doesn't devalue the previous bundles? It definitely does! I'm disappointed cus I could spend almost half and I don't care about skins and game time is the only savior that makes it less than bad.
@@Redbeardflynn That's true but I bet to most people in game currency doesn't carry that good value and game time sure it's value but imo they went too far in the other direction. I'd rather see them lower cost and keep it alpha only or definitely not more than alpha+beta for same price, no extra. If they succeed people shouldn't feel disappointment for buying the 250 bundle and I do to some extent.
You could say the keys are more expensive and you got the better deal. With the keys you do not get anything else except for a delayed test time. With the original bundles you got tokens, game time, cosmetics and longer test time. Who got the better deal and whose deal is worth more?
@@dancoleman6502 I wouldn't say so because apparently keys are worth less than 100$ since new bundles include all test phases which I bet is main reason why most bought before and a month game time. So I paid double for some extra skins and currency to buy skins and more game time. I disagree that it's worth more than twice as much. And a bundle should mean you get more value which I don't agree with anymore. I bet a lot would buy this new deal rather than the old if they knew it was coming. And the extra testing time is only 6 days.
What's GTA6 and what does that have to do with anything? Just confused here. Also, who is buying a game here? You're paying to test a game that is in R&D with no guarantee that it will be a game in the future. Just speculation that a game will result. This is an investment. Investments like contracts need consideration and the amount you pay to test is your consideration. The real question is, are you going to invest? I would expect a game after it exits R&D like this to const $50 a month cap. Which could vary between $25-$50 a month. That is my conjecture.
@@dancoleman6502 Once grand theft auto 6 comes out, noone will be caring about AoC. They are trying to get funds before its out and no I will not invest when this looks worse every year. At this point I am more likely to invest in Pantheon Rise of the Fallen.
If i can keep my alpha character for beta and launch i would pay the 120$ without hesitation. If i pay just to try a bugged version for 1 years and then they wipe my character ?! No thanks ill wait full release. Not gonna waste 1 years playing and investing time in the game for nothing
Can we address that there is an alternate world where they never opened additional alpha keys and just kept it to the current people. And people fucking hate it because they don't get to play it.
I can't speak for anyone else but for me, when I found out what was going on, my interest in the game took a nosedive. I don't want that to come off as hate, I'm just saying that to me it's an indication of the mindset of the people behind the game. Red flag for me. I've lost interest in all games which plan on milking the player base. I don't have the time for it, and there are sooo many other games to play. Just my perspective.
I don't know what all the fuzz is about. Don't like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. The value of playing early is different for each potential player and they just try to max the money they get from it, as everybody does.
I am older so, what the heck did you say? What's Core Punk? (Definition) and the other part "is literal trash", does this mean you're saying you think the game is trash? If so, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But what do you care?
Good to see they added more value. Clearer communication would probably have avoided this PR mountain-out-of-a-molehill storm. Ah well. Still, as long as there's no pay-to-win/convenience/headstart on live, who cares? Wait until the game is out, see if it's good. If yes, great, free box cost, just monthly sub and have fun. If not, then you havent wasted a dime. Let people with money to throw to the wind pay to test if they want, doesn't change anything for players that wait for live. Simple enough.
@ZapatosVibes it's not about that. It's about the shifting and contradictory messaging that is eating at the trust they have worked to build. No one is giving up, at least no one who cared to begin with. But this decision feels contradictory to Steven's monologuing about what the game and project was about years and years ago. It makes people suspicious, Steven's attitude is changing Things change, I know. But it's been a few things now. "This game is already completely funded to completion" Next "This kickstsrter is only to gauge engagement, we don't need to money. The game is funded. Next "So, we have ANOTHER package. SUPER expensive, we don't need money though, I promise. This isn't about that, it's about exciting and hyping the fan base. It's an alpha! Next "Soooo...guys, games cost money. Im not saying we NEED it, but here's another package. BTW you need it for alpha" (bunch of fomo sales tactics follows) That's just one example of their attitude slowly morphing, costs can be explained with bad management and planning. But as I said it's only ONE of the inconsistencies that's developed, it's just the easiest to explain.
Yeah in my opinion this just looks like they are taking advantage of the supporters of the game by trying to make extra money off of them. Yes they need testers but why charge them so much money to test and review the current state of them game? Just to make more profit. It's a greedy monetization tactic and their way of presenting it and communicating it was terribly predatory and deceiving. No they aren't forcing anyone to do it, but they are taking advantage of the community because they know they will pay for it. They can just have free and selective testing done but choose not to. If they really just needed money to finish the game, they should have just asked for more support and be upfront about it without articulating it and unpacking it in such a bullshit way. Just say "we are charging early access because we need funding to finish the game" but instead it just comes off as they want more money in their pockets to capitalize on the demand to play. It's just business. Which everyone is mad because they try to pretend they are innocent from greedy marketing.
I got to agree with this dude. They know thst the people buy three key are not doing itnto be testers. If they needed the money yo finish thr game they should just day so instead of doing this scummy tactics. And no one should be justifying it.
Whoever buys into this is going to be a non-shareholder to give feedback and be a part of the project. They understand it's not a release of the game or to play a full game. Those who pay know what they are getting into. Also, it's not crap if you don't agree you can simply pass and wait till the release, simple. This is not forced.
@@dancoleman6502 no crap, it's not forced. LOL, Along people keep doing this it's pretty much giving ammo to other future DEVs to do this crap, and it's not good.
@@thugdragonz Says who? What does it matter if others do this? Either you participate or you don't. Nothing else affects you. The market will decide if it's successful or not and at some point, behavior gets adjusted if it doesn't work within the market. The best way to change this behavior is do not participate.
They kept it high because this is not early access. This is in an alpha stage. If they make it too cheap then the people who paid 500 dollars to get in 4 years ago.
Why? I am not aware of many cases of getting paid to test or testing with nothing given. If there is one or two then that might be the exception not the rule. If you want to invest then you do and test if not, then you don't.
@@dancoleman6502 Invest, bruh Imagine telling a bunch of carpenters "Pay me $1000 and come frame my house, no you will not get the contract to build the rest of the house, but look at it as an investment" lol, lmao even.
Beta will run concurrently with Alpha or at least that is the plan according to the organization. So, I think no later than 1 year from May 2025. At some point you need to recoup your investment from R&D if you want to leave R&D and go retail. If wait too long, then you might implode.
Severally put of AoC now! Steven now appears to me as a charismatic manipulator. The update to the pricing for Alpha testing is an insult imho. It appears that it shows they are “testing” what they can get away with, instead of wanting people to help them make a final product. It’s also been said by Steven that the game has already got all of its funding so the completely egregious pricing is a joke imho. Diablo 4 got dragged over the coals for its game price and content, and that was a complete game (sort of). I don’t see how we should tolerate this from AoC. It stinks of bait and switch to me. Now we are getting closer to people seeing the game and investing in it, it’s becoming clearer that the actual business model is, pretend to be a game “for the people, by the people” to get coverage in news feeds etc, then switch to egregious measures upon release. $120 to work for them and get in game….. Steven seems to have shown his colours now and I won’t be looked down upon like that.! 😡 Absolutely gutted doesn’t come close to how I feel about this! 😢 if a AAA company did this?………….
Lol I agree with you and lot of people forgot what he promised at the start. He did say that the game already had enough funding to complete. At the very least he could either admit that he was wrong and it is costing more than he expected and he was in over his head in what he thought it would take and he does need help and a lot more help to compete the game. I think where a lot of indie goes wrong is they over promise and under deliver and try to side step instead of owning up to their mistakes and be careful about making promises they know they can't deliver on or may not be able to deliver on. The longer a game drags on beyond what they say it will and real discernable progress is not made compared to what they said was already done when it hasn't or the time frame it will take and that time drags on way beyond the time they set and continually stretch on asking for more snd more mo ey with no end in sight it is understandable where people are worried if it isn't just another vaporware money grab.
@@warners2797 additionally, when people invest in these games that still need years to produce and playable game, they forget that their life might be very different in a few years time, with changing demands on their life. Maybe they have children, new jobs, less money and thus no means of buying a new computer… etc etc… people just get caught up in the hype and loose money as a result. Once they have invested though, it’s no one’s fault but their own if they loose out. One of life’s lessons that makes you wiser I guess.
In general its $250 to back the development of a game you want to see come out versus current trends in the genre from bigger companies. Those pledges will generally include some sort of incentive as well such as at-launch game-time subscriptions or in-game currency to even out the cost but its obviously delayed or not promised given the nature of a crowd-funded project being uncertain.
Remember when game devs would give out keys to gamers to help test their games during Alphas? Now we pay the devs to play am Alpha? Wtf happened? The Early Acxess games seem to be a cover for Alpha testing to justify charging people for incomplete games! The industry is a joke now.
Those game devs were fully-funded by large publishers. These are not the same things. When you dont have a publisher funding has to come from somewhere. You can still however get those free keys to test a game like Throne and Liberty or New World Aeternum atm if that's more your speed.
It makes perfect sense to have a cost on the Alpah keys. To keep the integrity of the game they have to have a barrier to entry. You don't want a bunch of people who aren't really interested in the game and are just looking for the next new game to play testing. That's what happened to NewWorld, a bunch of people not interested in a PVP game turned into the PVE crap that was released. You want people who are going to give feedback on mechanics, bugs etc. Not people who are going to give feedback about how they want PVE servers.
This "reasoning" makes zero sense for the simple fact that there's players who've already been begging for a PvE focus since day one. This has absolutely nothing to do with testing.
@@irishsage2459 Have they changed the focus of the game? No and people haven't been asking for PVE since day 1 the game was in kickstarter for a month and nobody was asking for PVE. When the normies heard about the game that's when the change it to PVE only started. This stage of development you want people who want to play the game your making not change the game you are making. Feedback and going over feedback are the most important things during testing and I don't think they want to waste their time looking at feedback about changing the game to PVE or put safezones in or the lawless zone sucks.
You misunderstood. It's not access to the game it's for testing not playing. The testing period for first phase is what you're describing but then you also get phase two and phase three and beyond. You understand this is an investment and like all investments it's a contract and your consideration is $120 and their consideration is having you test for those periods. Also, you are placing conjecture that the game will have p2w which they have said they will not. At this point there is no evidence this will occur, not saying at some point it won't though as they would be stupid not to if they do not recoup the R&D investments. The wording Piece of Sh*t is your opinion as the game if it does come out will be what you want to get out of it. You either hate it or love it but that's all up to you and your interpretation of your experience.
@@dancoleman6502Good go ahead, buy the key, and enjoy paying to test their game for 9 days. And maybe, in 50 years, when the beta comes out for $50 per key, you can do it all over again. Oh, and when the game is finally released and the armor sets look worse than those in POE2-unless you spend $120-don't complain, because you allowed this to happen.
I backed the game since Kickstarter. I've been here for ALL the controversies. The second round of Kickstarter packages, after the initial time expired... Stuffertons... Outsourcing to use another company's servers (forgot the company's name)... Blowing past the previously stated deadline for game completion... etc., etc., etc.... Personally, I didn't think the initial cost of the Alpha keys were punitive. Most of those mmo's mentioned, when compared to Intrepid, are AAA studios. Also, we have to take into account the scope of the game. The more complex the game, the more resources/money its going to take. Not every studio operates the same, so comparisons are not going to be equal. That said, while I am admittedly annoyed about the (largely faux) outrage, and Intrepid capitulating to people who's foremost intent was just find something to hate on, for the sake of hating (my opinion)...I'm not mad about the recent changes. It doesn't hurt me in the slightest. And, if it calms down the furor...even a tiny bit...godspeed, lol. This isn't the first bit of drama for the game. It won't be the last, I'm sure.
@@iant6943 you just said in the op that you dont care about paying for the alpha and not about peoples criticisms. Make up your mind 😂. Typical white knights
- animation, still bad. - movement, still clunky these 2 aspect is still the same for years - price, gonna be pricey for crowdfunded indie MMO my conclusion: for years their animation is still bad and clunky even if they are quite better now, but still bad. for the price, if the price for the base game and the subs more expensive than FFXIV or WoW, this game wont be that successful. for now its overhyped and this hype is quite dangerous for AoC since they need to be successful on their launch or else the game will be dead in months
The issue I have with this situation is that they are selling access to these test. It's true people expiation isn't that they should be gaining access to play these test with the mind set of gaining access to a full product. But the company should not be selling the community access to a test. A major majority of these people are not buying these keys in the mind set of being a tester to help improve yhe game. And even though the dev have made it clear the state of the game you are gaining access to is thst of an unfinished product I still do not see why you are selling access to this at a hundred dollars. That a very scummy move. You shouldn't be selling access to a test in the first place. It makes me think they are not doing that for feedback.
They added beta and one month free and 15 Embers to the keys. Started with clarification but today just a few hours ago they releases version 2 of the alpha 2 keys which made them into bundles.
I am not alone in being under the impression that the initial Alpha 2 would not be limited to weekends. As one of the "Pantheon Patient" I am fine with this, but many expected more than initial weekend access.
It's not. A cash grab would be, pay now for release two years from now or pay for a game advantage for a game two years from now. This is asking for an investment and the consideration for the investment is testing the game pre-launch.
LOL Alpha still in 2026! Seriously, $120 to test a game that has been in development since 2017. I really believe this game has now become worse than Pantheon and that is totally sad to say. If you want testers, open the game to everyone now. You'll get hundreds of thousands of bug reports and feedback which is better than a small kiss ass crowd who paid for the game thinking no matter what they create will be perfect.
@@jamescruz5637 bro it takes AAA studios 7 years to make an MMO with a smaller scope than this and 3x the team size. Indie company taking 10 years to make a bigger game with less people is somehow a surprise???
@@LordCommanderVex It's interesting to me how superficial the understanding of game development is in the gaming community. They act like they've made a game of Ashes scale and KNOW how much resources it takes and how it should be made. It's refreshing to read comments from folks like you and others who have a grasp beyond our own feelings of how we want things to go.
@Redbeardflynn sorry but there should not be any Justification for a company expecting you to pay them to test their game. And this gaslighting is ridiculous. If they need the money that bad after 7 years of development this game is already fucked.
@@xXMapcoXx if that's your red line id strongly suggest avoiding any crowdfunded projects then as it will likely be the norm since thr nature of those is Pledges from a crowd to fill in the gap of a traditional publisher. There's nothing wrong with not liking thst development model but it is the expectation of this model of funding.
@@Hooch_is_crzy I've seen enough of their design tenets and enough gameplay to know it's just an ability spamfest with no depth, and only looks pretty. Hard pass.
@@leehod1811 They're clearly going in a direction that doesn't interest me, and I can see that a mile away. But hey, maybe I'll end up being wrong. Maybe we'll find out in another 7 years when it's finished.
Blown out of proportion for sure. Yes, would have been better if the details were clear and exact on the live stream and not updated later that day after the stream (via reddit). I felt the $120-$100 for just Alpha 2 was fair, and now they even include the betas, so even a better deal for those who want to test and help development. For anybody out there, if you do not like the price, do not buy it. Wait for release :)
I am $250 into both Pantheon Rise of the Fallen and Ashes of Creation, and am equally disappointed and hopeful about both games. At least I will get more hours in Pantheon in the short term. This also gives me more time to adjust my lifestyle to accommodate more computer game time.
@@micbln8967I have been following Ashes of Creation fairly closely for the last few years, and I don't think it was clear that the initial months of Alpha 2 would be limited to weekends only. Many creators who followed Ashes closely were clearly expecting initial Alpha 2 to have at least a week window of play at a time, although given the number of parents involved, that might have been just wishful thinking. In any case, I am fairly certain that it was not explicitly clear that initial Alpha 2 access would be weekends only.
I want gonna get it at first since 100 just for alpha and then more money for beta wasn’t worth it for me, but since they added beta access and subscription time I’m buying it now yipee
@@micbln8967 That is not accurate. During the live AMA they said new Alpha 2 keys would only include access to the Alpha 2 and nothing else (no beta access). However, later that day/next day, Steven posted in reddit to update the details and say that the New Alpha 2 keys would also include Beta access and 1 month of subscription time and some embers for spending in the game store (once game is live..no p2w). I personally have no issue with the updated terms and am happy for those who want to buy an alpha 2 key to test.
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.83[2/2] ประสบการณ์ขนหัวลุกจากตำนานวงการผี!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/T_kFecQw7Ds/mqdefault.jpg)
Players went from paid testers to testers who pay.
Lets be fucking real. Most of the players wont test in A2. Stop calling them testers, when the absolute majority is not going to test.
@@Bishop3k Bro it‘s called ALPHA for a reason
What the fuck do you don‘t understand at a playable Alpha?
Damn you're doing tricks on it @@Bishop3k
@@Bishop3k That's though what AoC team are sayin they're.
players have never tested games before mmos and especially tech became good enough that they "have to" do that for the company to get enough players to properly stress-test the games.
the people that used to test games were professional testers, and they still do that, its called QA
You lost me at alpha 2 alpha 1 phase 3 test weekend 6 weeks to one year updates vassaling new tier, monetized 24/7 access stability scalability testing.
It's cool man, you have other video game posters on your wall and a TMNT t-shirt, plenty of other crap to waste money on.
@@mercster it was a joke but thanks for personally attacking me? Lol
@@mercster I wish I had a cool tmnt tshirt!
Agree, AoC have a lot to figure out since they are bleeding money right now
Oh boy - I’d love to see this game get released but lately I have had my doubts. I just don’t know what to think anymore - I remember the days of beta testers being the backbone of these games during the glory days of MMOs but now with games trying to get every cent they can from its customer base and honestly I’m not surprised to see this occurring. All I want is a new MMO (despite the fact that I don’t have as much time as I did when younger) to be successful and not insanely predatory. I don’t know if that’s a pipe dream but one can dream. One can dream….
Thanks for keeping us old fogies in the loop Flynn… 😊
Yeah. I remember when being jealous of people getting in a CBT for a mmorpg i wanted to test out. Nowadays they want us to pay to be their alpha testers, these players will think they're helping to fund for the development.
@@ryuno2097Not only that, all the work the devs put into keeping those beta testers happy. I still remember the end of the Asheron’s Call beta and it was such a frigging blast. Hell, dev events as a whole just seem like a thing of the past. There was so much interaction and community that existed in those early MMO days.
Its certainly a pipe dream in this day and age, a good dream but I'm doubtful. It would make them insanely successful if they don't rush, but more than likely they gonna take the easy money approach.
yo no tendré tiempo para jugarlo desafortunadamente y me planteo vender la cuenta, pero la alpha 1 fue de las experiencias más divertidas en un MMO que he vivido y eso que otros como amazon me pagaron por probar la beta de new world. la posibilidad de juntar 60 personas en un world boss y si no quieres a otros puedes iniciar un combate entre clanes por ese boss lo hacía mucho más divertido, igual que lo de evolucionar el nodo cosechando o matando mobs. Solo espero que la gente no sean tan críticos, es un proyecto que promete mucho y de momento cumple. :)
We have months before the beginning of the end of the world economically and safety., we have about 7-15 years before the end of this world and the start of the brave new world. Much like the end of the world back during the dark ages. Not sure economically this game or any will survive really. Most banks won't for sure. I think most of the world will be in survivor mode. Let's say I'm crazy (which I'm not just need to look at the state of the world, the worse of what's coming is in the bible) and I'm off 20 years or let's be optimistic and believe status quo for the world continues as it is, then I think the game will release in two to three years. Beta is going to run alongside of Alpha at the start of phase three of alpha. Which is in May 2025 so could release May 2026 or May 2027.
I agreed that for one key in one select phase of alpha two those prices were insane and I bought the pledge packages from before. now that they have changed it and upgrade the keys to include keys for beta 1 and beta 2 that is a very reasonable price. There shouldn't be any more complaints even though there probably will be to those who want to test the game this is the time to buy the keys to the alpha 2 and future tests. If you don't want to test the game, then wait until the release.
No company should be selling the ability yo test their products. And gamers should not be telling each other " that's reasonable" because I'm pretty sure this isn't about getting player feed back. If they were serious about that they wouldn't be expecting people to pay them to test their game.
@@wildyoda2931 It's either take whatever phlegm the investors allow the developers to release, or free the developers from the investors.
It was relieving that the keys we purchase from wednesday will include everything from alpha 2 to month 1 of release, but you have to look at the fact this project has no publishers and server time for the alpha when hosting 100k+ players is EXPENSIVE like $780,000+ a year (around 65c per concurrent player per month just for the server time) so for just alpha (18 months) thats 1.17million+ and thats just for Alpha 2 - just think how much longer until release say 4 years and it will be persistant 24/7 from May 1 till release - so it will end up costing about $50 of your $120 in server costs alone.. I wasnt happy with paying $120 for alpha 2 access only, but now im quite content paying $70 to the development of the game, knowing i can test and play the game through apha 2 (with some restrictions early on) and beta 1 & 2 and first month of release with no additonal costs until 2029, Think of alpha access to many games on kickstarter is about $45-55 at the moment (example Outbound - non MMO means no persistant server costs) so even if you wait till May 1 for alpha 3 at $100 it will still cost you about $45 in server costs and then you are only paying $50 to the devs for the game access so all for a 90M$ mmo with no publisher completely backed by players and privately funded. I think $100 (or $120 for earlier access is not much).. just my opinion
These changes are good. I was really worried when they weren't including access to beta if you bought alpha access. That was insane. This is still insane, but it's much more tolerable knowing that if I buy into this, I'm in until it goes live. This might have been their plan all along as others have pointed out in the comments. At the end of the day, if ~$100 gets me into testing all the way until we see Live, yeah I'm probably in.
I think Pantheon is calling it seasons, along with terms like "early access" to paint the development with terms familiar with a more progressed product. Essentially, it's still in the same state of development with a new coat of paint and broken up into 6 week snack-size bites.
Ty for the video! Looking forward to playing with yall!
This seems like a pretty classic case of "let's release something completely absurd. If we get away with it, we can laugh our way to the bank. If we don't, we can pretend we listen to our community and go towards what the actual model was going to be. It will still be ridiculous, but they'll think we're the good guys and that their feedback matters".
The negative PR that's generated by major content creators from the initial awful decision then turns to positive PR which has reached 100x the audience thanks to the coverage. Meanwhile, you're still paying them to test their game.
My thoughts exactly. Ain't nobody got time for this (BS)!
I’m just gonna say you haven’t been in the ashes community long. Steven and employees at intrepid are known to watch and comment on comment creators videos. Also to me they saw negative feedback and made a change. I know you’re probably not normalized to that since very few games do that. If you do need and evidence of interactions with employees and Steven in the community just let me know!!
@@RyguyRB And how can an indie company make an MMO of this scale if they're not charging people to test the game?
Pricing is not just about getting as much money as you can. It is also about gating the number of folks being able to play at one time. It's not a binary thing.
@@broquietstorm1266 I don't think "Indie" Company is a decent description of them. They have 200+ employees and an office in California. Their running costs are over 90M/year. The money they make from this isn't going to mean anything.
They are just trying to make sure the people that sign up are least semi-serious about testing not just coming in to try out the game.
First of all, it's not to play the game. It's not a release of the game at all. This is an investment of the game if you feel you are invested in the success of the game. You will only be a non-shareholder investor to give feedback of a test. No need to be negative or hateful because you're not being forced to test the game. Wait for the release of the game if you want to play the game. Then you only pay a subscription.
I confess it was more than a little satisfying to tell the Ashes chat that now they knew what it was like to be "Pantheon Patient."
I've actually backed both games for the same amount, and will be getting a lot more hours testing Pantheon than Ashes through the end of the year, and probably beyond.
Sounds like you will get a lot of test time over the next year or two for Ashes.
moving along... at the speed of evolution.
I think lawless zones are okay if placed right.
Example
As nearby nodes level the lawless zone shrinks and if a node down grades the lawless zone grows.
AoC just needs to be more transparent, "were bleeding money, if you want to see this release please donate a LOT"
Don't know about you but I don't really talk finance with a game developer that has already spent close to 100million, at least not in a negative way to say they are bleeding money. This is a R&D company right now, there are no profits just losses so there is no bleed as there was nothing to bleed. Simply put they are looking for investors who are going to contribute through testing and the monetary value you pay to do this. You can't have investors if there is no quid pro quo so the testing is their consideration and the amount you pay is your consideration. When the game is released then the game switches from R&D company to a for profit company or a retail company. Then if they spend more than they make then its considered bleeding money. If you want to invest with the hopes of success, then pay the fee. It's not a donation so you can't take it on your taxes as a deduction. I think this game will come out sometime shortly after May 2025 or no more than one year following as they need to turn some profit from the R&D.
Braver Of World Tier here, I don’t have to worry about the subscription since mine is lifetime, but I’m hoping this game isn’t going to be dead on arrival
To avoid upsetting the "Core" people who purchased Founder’s Packs way back, it’s essential to recognize that for those individuals, for those ppl the price point is valid. The packs have been available for a long time, and probably same ppl previously complained that they were too expensive. From the developers’ perspective, fostering a positive community is ideal.. Its an effective way to stop the critics/troll at the gates already.. 120$ for atleast a year of ingame time, I can see it is valuable for some people. Alot of us have seen games in a even worse state been released many times in the past.
$100 Starfield purchase anyone?
A 3 month subscription towards the game on release feels like it would have been the appropriate return on “investment”. After all, it’s supposed to be a two-way street here. Yes, the player gets early access BUT ALSO they’re testing the game for you. As it stands, it feels like a predatory scheme towards those who are already on board. “You’ve already spent 10 years and ‘X’ amount of money. What’s another $110 on top of it?” It makes me wary of future monetization. If the developers are trying to take advantage of the community before launch, what will happen after launch? I’d think the devs would be “showering” prospective players with generosity: early access, skins, special privileges, etc. This definitely makes me more cautious moving forward with AoC.
Without that $110 how are they already on board? Because they kept up with livestreams? No, those who already spent $250 are on board and they are not the ones complaining about $110 alpha keys because they already have it because of their $250.
The people complaining are those who AREN'T onboard but want to get on now when alpha 2 is imminent and they want on at a lower price point with the same benefits.
@@Athasin Intrepid studios has raised over $3 million since 2017 from investors in this game. Most of the people that paid the $250 have already thrown a bunch of money at the devs to help them create this game. Same goes to people jumping in at $110.
@@Z-MACx
"Most of the people that paid the $250 have already thrown a bunch of money at the devs to help them create this game."
Yes, and those are NOT the same people expected to pay $110 for an alpha key because they already have their alpha keys thanks to the $250. The same DOES NOT go for those jumping in at $110 because if they're jumping in at $110 they are original backers because original backers already have an alpha key.
Like I said, how is Intrepid being predatory to those already on board when those already on board are NOT the ones being asked for $110 for an alpha key?
If anything Intrepid is being fair to their original backers by NOT offering bandwagoners the same benefits for a lower cost with alpha 2 right around the corner.
@@Athasin They've been asking people to invest in the game for the last 8 years. And now they're asking players to invest another $110. That's a lot of money for the average person.
@@Z-MACx No, they're those WHO HAVEN'T ALREADY INVESTED to invest $110 IF they want to play the upcoming Alpha 2.
Hey Red,can u review Corepunk alpha 4?
I played Alpha 1 and 3, I'll look to see about 4, they sent me a key. Biggest problem atm is time.
Actually a really well detailed video. Thanks for your insight regardless [:
Thank you so much for your kind words!
sweet i get alpha 2 in oct woot. As i bought mine back on kick starter 250 back then as well.
I get it a couple weeks after you for 50% cheaper. You mad?
@@andylarkin5779lmao who are you? Also no you didn’t lmao. Alpha 2 access so far has been 250+ until these keys. Also was stating i get on oct because of when i bought mine dumb fuck.
I still think people have too high of expectations. This game will be awesome. I think we should let the devs do what devs do, and patiently wait.
I’d rather wait for gold than be given brass
I really do feel like Ashes has a higher potential than some other games to be crushed under the weight of expectations. Too many players not looking at it like an Indie MMO and instead "the salvation for MMOs"
Some peoples brass is others gold and so forth. People will get out of it what they put into it. If they put negative emotion into it, they will get negative experience from it and vis versa.
Ive been arguing with brainless intrepid defenders since this announcement, basically saying they need to add the beta access and some extras to it. They should have just brought the 250 dollar pack back, or something similar, and sold the key pack as well. But this is a good change regardless ans im glad the team listened to reason. Thank you intrepid and steven.
It makes me think they need a new PR person. The live announcement was rather chaotic and should have been handled differently. With the clarifications now it looks better and i will most likely be participating, but it depends on one thing - how stable it will be in phase 1.
Yes, the update helped. I was surprised when they said there was no beta access. Alpha testers should be paid testers.
Why should they be paid testers? I have never heard of anyone paying someone outside of an organization to test the product. Unless the product could cause harm such as experimental drugs. Was there one case in game development that this was the case? If so, I would say it's not the rule but the exception.
@@dancoleman6502 Its epected to get paid to test alpha.s
I think if you consider the fact the game is subscription. And you have an opportunity to pay early aub in one sum lump for early access. I think considering many games have monitization of ptw and there are a lot of investors that spend a lot of money up front to invest in monetized games knowing they will make money when the game when it launches through ptw and cosmetic monetization.
That being said paying an years worth of subscription upfront to help launch a non ptw game could be worth it on 2 conditions:
It does not end up having ptw down the road
The production doesn't keep getting dragged on with vapor ware drag on going way beyond what they say it will take to develope.
So my basic viewpoint is if paid testing helps produce the game sooner without ptw within a year or so it seems fine in my eyes. The fact that these new keys only provide access without the perks for pre purchased perks I think is a way to not betray the initial investment of the pre existing pledges while helping the game come to fruition sooner. I would think that if all they were doing was helping to speed up production without providing the perks that came with the original pledges that some people would be happy tho some may not and that's u derstandable.
On the other hand of they are grabbing money for testing and the game keeps dragging on for 2, 3, 4, 5 years with no end game in sight then yes it seems not so transparent and how people would wonder if the game will end up being vapor in the end and they are just trying to grab as much money as they can on empty / undelivered promises. Unfortunately for this part only time will tell.
The alpha 2 will carry on when the betas are released. I am fairly sure most of the people crying about a beta package with the key do/did not know this.
They will be able to play beta with the alpha keys. Also, wait and see. They will let people in with no pay for entry after May 2025. Mark my words.
They're letting so many people in alpha/beta there's going to be no secrets left in the game. There's already going to be a meta setup with the classes for PvP and raiding. This is way too many people "testing" the game. Which let's be honest most of these aren't testers that are going to actively searching for bugs. No they're going to go play the game. Honestly some people are going to use it to figure out ways to exploit the economy and other things.
Yes, I agree that a majority of the individuals who are playing for access to the alpha test are not doing it to help improve it. They just gonna play the game. It just scummy that the dev are selling access to "test" there game. It not about gaining player feed back let be honest and the dev know the people paying foe access are more than likely not doing it to help improve the experience. That is the thing that burns my ass. And gamers should not justify this. Like, come on people your telling me you're completely OK with a development team charging you to test their game?
@@xXMapcoXx Original WoW release was so cool because no one knew anything. Steven is throwing the whole point of making this new world if there's already going to be guides all over the internet for everything. I was hoping this was going to be like the first time going into WoW experience with most people not completely understanding their classes and many other things in the game. With 100,000+ people testing this for nearly a year they're going to beat out every secret and create a bunch of net talent builds. The people who were in this are going to know all the fastest ways to make gold and ruin the economy for the rest of us. I was so hopeful for this game and yeah I'm still going to try it but they totally just scrapped an opportunity to make a new MMO full of mysteries.
Maybe, but maybe the moon is made of cheese. What's the point. There would be complaints if they let too few in and the game release turns out to be like New World. The point is that the gaming community is Schizophrenic, and you can't win with them. They are instant gratification, selfish and complaining sheep. Yes, you have to beware of scams, but buyers beware has always been a thing. Why complain about something you haven't played yet or may or may not play. The way I figure it those who will try and look for ways to cheat, exploit (cheat) and test the game are also the ones that will burn through the content and leave the game in a year. So, if you plan to play long term there is really nothing gained or lost here by this.
What did yall expect? They selling keys to people that want to get in that otherwise wouldnt have gotten in. So i think thats better than not getting to try it at all. Personally im not payimg them any money until the game comes out or maybe a pretty polished beta comes out. But to get mad that they want you to pay money for a alpha when you wouldnt have gotten a key otherwise is crazy.
I smell Camelot Unchained.
Tbh that's a pretty stupid comparison considering there are thousands of people(Alpha 1) playing the game right now.
Camelot Unchained is selling a game engine to investors, this is a bit different. A functional incomplete game for testers versus an engine for investors.
@@Redbeardflynn More in the line of a very hyped product that I don't feel will ever deliver what is hoped or promised. I'll never be able to circle the square of having to pay to test a game, but I generally find that someone wanting to do that (and to cash in now) has very little faith in the product they're making, ala, camelot unchained.
Thanks for covering this. It's generating a lot of discussion.
The thing you have to remember is that the people that paid 250 got 6 months of in game time so you have to weigh it accordingly with the higher tier packages.
Thats roughly $42 dollar a month value. The play test of $120 is a $10 or less monthly value. Those who paid the $250 also test so it's about even really. People are acting like they are getting nothing for something. They are actually getting consideration for a contract in which you promise to give feedback. It's an investment.
@@dancoleman6502 basically pay to work a job, thats crazy.
is it me or did they originally say there would be no in-game stores whatsoever
its you. its always been that way.
Far as I know they've always said they'll have a cosmetic store with no p2w. It's in their earliest pledges as far as I know because those had store credits.
I have not heard of them saying there are in game stores. What in game store are you referring?
So its more like asking for donations and you get to be a game tester if you pay the right amount of donations as a reward?
not quite, donations are something given with no consideration the other party does not have to perform. This is a contract for investment. You give consideration in the value of $120 and Ashes gives consideration and performs which is the testing period you enter. Both sides perform. No definition of donation here.
A year long alpha2 after 7 years of development? i'll check back in 2030.
Lol I know how you feel. I'm holding off on investing in these games. I had high hopes for pantheon rise of the fallen and ashes of creation both taking much longer than expected. I'll be glad if either actually come out. Ut I'm not holding my breath any more. Now a days I just come back maybe twice a year to see what's happening.
Game will more than likely not release at this point until 10 to 12 years after the kickstarter. It’s an alpha test. I’m not sure why anyone would be upset just wait it’s a long ways out still unfortunately.
What is this games monetization plans on release?
No box price, subscription, in-game cosmetic store
@@Redbeardflynn No box price as in, the game is free, but you just need to pay for subscription? I love that. I am not a fan of micro-transactions, even cosmetics purchases. My preference is always subscriptions for MMOs. Honestly I don't mind games that allow to spend real money for in game currency as that just kills off the gold farmers.
Redbeardflynn is not really comparing apples to apples instead apples to oranges.
I would never pay 100+ dollars for testing a game, before in time ppl got paid for testing now it costs hundreds of dollars. They are greedy
@@74arcath Then do like Intrepid said and DON'T buy in to the testing. They've already hired internal testers which are getting paid and are under NDA. You just simply cannot get the data needed for an MMO on just a few hundred testers.
Then don't, just like Intrepid told you not to. They don't need you. Thats why they cut off alpha 2 keys in the first place. 95%+ people will not be testing this game and we all know it. They will just play it like its early access.
Pay to be a tester!
Kinda like Dragons Dogma 2
Or Starfield
Or BG3
Yep, that is usually the case is it not? Unless you test an experimental drug that might be harmful but that's not the case here. I don't see this as paying to test. Instead, I see testing as consideration for your investment. Otherwise, you're donating which has other effects on the company receiving those funds (that is my deductive reasoning) instead they are exchanging your investment with testing which gives consideration on both ends and will have another effect on those funds. You will be a non-shareholder investor meaning you don't get dividends, or any payout of bankruptcy occurs instead your paid upfront with testing time.
@@tonydalimata ah yes crappy games.
@@tonydalimata As they say, a sucker is born every minute!
So let me get this logic straight in case im getting it wrong. People are mad they have to pay $100 for Alpha2(which will last at least a year) you get alpha, beta, and 1 month free + 15$ ember for skins when the full release of the game essentially having test/play time of 1-2 years for $100. You can stop playing and come back any time during that when more stuff is added(in Phase 3 when its more of a completed look of the game, and... people are mad about that?... Using BG3 as an example, those same people probably bought Baldurs Gate 3 for 80$, played for a total of roughly 40-60 hours and never touched it again. But its "worth it for the amount of play time you get"
The prices and what you get for the amount of playtime/testing you get, I dont really see a problem tbh. Even the 1 month free sub is potentially 40+ hours worth of game time assuming playing 2 hours a day MAX
It adds extra to it when the game has no box price. BG3 which you mentioned had a box price, buying early access bought the game. The idea here *would* have been paying just for testing (and its testing, not game access, at least per their very own marketing for it)
Adding Post-Launch gametime is essential here, at least imo, or the optics and the reality of it is people paying to *test* the game not to *play* a full game. It cant be marketed and stressed as being a testing phase on one hand and then sold as game access on the other side. Intrepid has been clear its testing.
The change they made after the outcry was necessary. I still think it should be more given the pricing and how it compares to other Crowd-funded MMO but it at least alleviates the most frustrating part some.
Crowdfunding is voluntary and widely accepted. However, charging for an Alpha version is not. I have no doubt that this decision will cause them to lose respect, goodwill, and a significant number of players. These options offer poor value for money and clearly demonstrate a lack of respect for their player base. At worst, this behavior reflects greed; at best, it shows a delusional approach.
Back in my day game devs had to pay for alpha testers, and most of it was done in house...I have no interest in paying for Alpha testing at all.
Ah yes, clarification. Because saying the Alpha 2 keys were only for Alpha 2 was just bad wording and didn’t mean the only thing it could possibly mean.
This game finna make more money from alpha/beta sales then when the game release
Doesn't have to.
Big mistake in this video, they do not rely on crowdfunding for the game, Steven will fund it to completion with his own money.
It is a crowdfunded mmo but yes Steven has said he would supplement it with his own money if necessary yes. But it is 100% a crowdfunded mmo. If it wasn't and they were asking for Pledges that would be infinitely more problematic
@@Redbeardflynn so far it's 33% crowdfunded (30mil) and 66% self-funded (60mil)
And why would it be problematic if they offer ways to support the game before the release? Everyone does that, even AAA studios
@@Redbeardflynn He actually invested 30 million dollars of his own money so it is most definitely not 100% crowd funded also if you watched this whole stream he even broke down the numbers and tells us. Why he wants this game to succeed because of the money he invested he stands to lose more than anyone else if this game fails. That is the only reason i have hope in this game because he wants it to be the best it can be. He himself took great risk in making this game and takes great risks if it fails.
@@MrKevlarkent Facts
@@wildyoda2931 30million was from all the packages they've sold so far, his share so far is 60million
They can sweeten it up any way they want, they're still charging over 100$ to spot test an alpha. Incredibly brazen, and what's even more incredible is how many people are defending them for it. Years ago I feel like the entirety of the 'gamer' community (or at least the vast majority) wouldn't have stood for something like this. We're all getting so acclimated to everything being monetized and it's a sad, depressing state of affairs.
That said, people need to chill on the FOMO, and I had to check myself as well. I want to play this game so damn bad, but the reality is that we're looking at at LEAST another two years of testing. I was 30 when Ashes went into development, and I'll be 40 by the time it releases. This better be the best MMO ever made, and it's not even close, or a lot of people are going to be incredibly disappointed.
Simple question. How does an indie MMO fund itself if not by charging for access?
@@broquietstorm1266 Easy. You have Alpha based on being a backer and then submit applications to join as a tester. With server bashes open for all backers. So everyone gets a chance to play at certain time. For Beta, you ramp up the population and server bashes for stability testing. Start with 1/4 the population. Then 1/2. Finally a few months before launch, all backers. That way you pay to dev the game, not to playtest for 100s of bunch.
They are having microtransactions and monthly fees. So you don't need to charge for testers.
@@Expertspecter I find it interesting you speak like you've developed an MMO of this scale and KNOW how much money they need to develop it. They have a building to maintain and a staff of over 200 people with a great many of those folks(programmers, IT, management, etc., making over 6 figures)
Do you sincerely have a grasp of what that is?
If is far from an "EASY" task.
I can appreciate the community asking for changes and Intrepid complying. But, some of the "recommendations" folks in the community have are questionable to me.
@@broquietstorm1266 Do you? I'll turn that back on you then. Simple Question. When have you done any of this and why does it matter what my thought is for a monetization method when they LITERALLY said this isn't a normal method and is in fact a novel idea.
@Expertspecter I made it my business to spend time sincerely researching game development since I backed an MMO (not Ashes, though). I even dabbled with the Unity game engine for a number of years. Not I said dabbled, not actually make a game.
Game development is profoundly different from actually playing a game. Far too many think because they played MMOS for 10-20+ years, they are qualified to tell studios how they should be made.
There are a prodigious amount of things that go on behind the scenes that the average and pro gamer never knew about. It's not a linear process, nor is it just solely about good business decisions. It is also about producing the equivalent of art and other disciplines.
This Q&A about Alpha Two was very insightful about the process if you were following it from that perspective and not just as a consumer.
I'm watching Ashes as a neutral party, not as a "fanboi"(I don't care for the term and only use it for context) I only ever watch the monthly streams and RedBeard's videos because he is also a part of the Pantheon community. I'm not in Ashes forums, Discord, etc.
I'm following Ashes in my quest to understand game development. I am still undecided if I will actually play it one day.
I will end with this emphasis. Playing games is profoundly different from developing one.
Economist speaking here. Two things.
First: they get revenue= quantity X price.
Second thing: let's plot price (vertical axis) and dedication (flakines/quality) of a tester (horizontal axis). The higher the price the more dedicated and better tester you get. Lower the price = more common to have person that thinks he/her is buying a game, go in, go mad, comment and make videos that AoC is bad.
Now let's talk about AoC specific situation here - hype for the game is huge! When people are hyped the quality/price relationship changes. You have more people that want to play the game instead of testing it properly, you have more flakey people. Price point from which you get dedicated enough people/good quality testers moves upwards toward higher price.
I'm not saying they don't get money from this, it's obviously their motivation, but for long term success of the game they also need to filter people they allow to test. We don't have the data and maybe they don't want to go the route of shitting on their alpha 1 testers for being not dedicated enough and being useless in terms of tests.
New World just added a Lawless pvp zone too
Now if they could add classes to be an actual MMO than whatever garbage they currently are!
Thats a little different that what Ashes intends I think., might be wrong.
at least star citizen alpha you get the game at launch..
for how long? The expectation is that the game will launch, and you will get the game. Although there is no guarantee of anything, and the world might end economically in which case there will be no game in the end.
They are not selling you a game this will be a monthly subscription only no game package will be sold.
Pretty sure these games are more profitable in development than as an active service..
Soooooooo I was going to buy it anyway. I was just upset that I have to wait till November
There is truth in this statement. You are probably the most honest one on this thread.
How you figure it doesn't devalue the previous bundles? It definitely does! I'm disappointed cus I could spend almost half and I don't care about skins and game time is the only savior that makes it less than bad.
Because the previous bundles include much larger amounts of game time and in game currency which carries real money value.
@@Redbeardflynn That's true but I bet to most people in game currency doesn't carry that good value and game time sure it's value but imo they went too far in the other direction. I'd rather see them lower cost and keep it alpha only or definitely not more than alpha+beta for same price, no extra. If they succeed people shouldn't feel disappointment for buying the 250 bundle and I do to some extent.
You could say the keys are more expensive and you got the better deal. With the keys you do not get anything else except for a delayed test time. With the original bundles you got tokens, game time, cosmetics and longer test time. Who got the better deal and whose deal is worth more?
@@dancoleman6502 I wouldn't say so because apparently keys are worth less than 100$ since new bundles include all test phases which I bet is main reason why most bought before and a month game time. So I paid double for some extra skins and currency to buy skins and more game time. I disagree that it's worth more than twice as much. And a bundle should mean you get more value which I don't agree with anymore. I bet a lot would buy this new deal rather than the old if they knew it was coming. And the extra testing time is only 6 days.
Still too high of a cost for a game that literally doesn't exist. Everyone just trying to get their money before Gta 6 comes out.
What's GTA6 and what does that have to do with anything? Just confused here. Also, who is buying a game here? You're paying to test a game that is in R&D with no guarantee that it will be a game in the future. Just speculation that a game will result. This is an investment. Investments like contracts need consideration and the amount you pay to test is your consideration. The real question is, are you going to invest? I would expect a game after it exits R&D like this to const $50 a month cap. Which could vary between $25-$50 a month. That is my conjecture.
@@dancoleman6502 Once grand theft auto 6 comes out, noone will be caring about AoC. They are trying to get funds before its out and no I will not invest when this looks worse every year. At this point I am more likely to invest in Pantheon Rise of the Fallen.
8:42 - It's called hubris.
If i can keep my alpha character for beta and launch i would pay the 120$ without hesitation.
If i pay just to try a bugged version for 1 years and then they wipe my character ?!
No thanks ill wait full release.
Not gonna waste 1 years playing and investing time in the game for nothing
lets hope this isnt gonna be another star citizen, lol. game is awesome from the videos, but thats it. an unfinished game.
I'm still trying to understand. I saw the clip of Asmongold losing his mind and going on a rant over this
Can we address that there is an alternate world where they never opened additional alpha keys and just kept it to the current people. And people fucking hate it because they don't get to play it.
So basically people will be experts at release because they've been playing for over a year. Great
I can't speak for anyone else but for me, when I found out what was going on, my interest in the game took a nosedive. I don't want that to come off as hate, I'm just saying that to me it's an indication of the mindset of the people behind the game. Red flag for me. I've lost interest in all games which plan on milking the player base. I don't have the time for it, and there are sooo many other games to play. Just my perspective.
I don't know what all the fuzz is about. Don't like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. The value of playing early is different for each potential player and they just try to max the money they get from it, as everybody does.
If you are going to pay you May aswell pay right away since it’s the best ldeal”😂
I feel bad for anyone who spends money on Core Punk game is literal trash
I am older so, what the heck did you say? What's Core Punk? (Definition) and the other part "is literal trash", does this mean you're saying you think the game is trash? If so, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But what do you care?
@@dancoleman6502 trust me its trash zero good about it and almost no changes in over 6 years
Good to see they added more value. Clearer communication would probably have avoided this PR mountain-out-of-a-molehill storm. Ah well. Still, as long as there's no pay-to-win/convenience/headstart on live, who cares? Wait until the game is out, see if it's good. If yes, great, free box cost, just monthly sub and have fun. If not, then you havent wasted a dime. Let people with money to throw to the wind pay to test if they want, doesn't change anything for players that wait for live. Simple enough.
@ZapatosVibes it's not about that. It's about the shifting and contradictory messaging that is eating at the trust they have worked to build.
No one is giving up, at least no one who cared to begin with. But this decision feels contradictory to Steven's monologuing about what the game and project was about years and years ago.
It makes people suspicious, Steven's attitude is changing
Things change, I know. But it's been a few things now.
"This game is already completely funded to completion"
Next
"This kickstsrter is only to gauge engagement, we don't need to money. The game is funded.
Next
"So, we have ANOTHER package. SUPER expensive, we don't need money though, I promise. This isn't about that, it's about exciting and hyping the fan base. It's an alpha!
Next
"Soooo...guys, games cost money. Im not saying we NEED it, but here's another package. BTW you need it for alpha" (bunch of fomo sales tactics follows)
That's just one example of their attitude slowly morphing, costs can be explained with bad management and planning. But as I said it's only ONE of the inconsistencies that's developed, it's just the easiest to explain.
$250 for alpha 2 access??? Who do they think they are, Star Citizen?
You're not paying $250 for access instead you paid $250 as an investor to help test a game your invested to produce. A non-shareholder investor.
Your pay out was game time and some items with zero real value.
Yeah in my opinion this just looks like they are taking advantage of the supporters of the game by trying to make extra money off of them. Yes they need testers but why charge them so much money to test and review the current state of them game? Just to make more profit. It's a greedy monetization tactic and their way of presenting it and communicating it was terribly predatory and deceiving. No they aren't forcing anyone to do it, but they are taking advantage of the community because they know they will pay for it. They can just have free and selective testing done but choose not to. If they really just needed money to finish the game, they should have just asked for more support and be upfront about it without articulating it and unpacking it in such a bullshit way. Just say "we are charging early access because we need funding to finish the game" but instead it just comes off as they want more money in their pockets to capitalize on the demand to play. It's just business. Which everyone is mad because they try to pretend they are innocent from greedy marketing.
I got to agree with this dude. They know thst the people buy three key are not doing itnto be testers. If they needed the money yo finish thr game they should just day so instead of doing this scummy tactics. And no one should be justifying it.
Who ever buys into this crap needs help.
Whoever buys into this is going to be a non-shareholder to give feedback and be a part of the project. They understand it's not a release of the game or to play a full game. Those who pay know what they are getting into. Also, it's not crap if you don't agree you can simply pass and wait till the release, simple. This is not forced.
@@dancoleman6502 no crap, it's not forced. LOL, Along people keep doing this it's pretty much giving ammo to other future DEVs to do this crap, and it's not good.
@@thugdragonz Says who? What does it matter if others do this? Either you participate or you don't. Nothing else affects you. The market will decide if it's successful or not and at some point, behavior gets adjusted if it doesn't work within the market. The best way to change this behavior is do not participate.
@@dancoleman6502 nuff said, you are just part of the problem.
They kept it high because this is not early access. This is in an alpha stage. If they make it too cheap then the people who paid 500 dollars to get in 4 years ago.
TotalBiscuit would have a word or two to say about paying money to a company to alpha test their game
Why? I am not aware of many cases of getting paid to test or testing with nothing given. If there is one or two then that might be the exception not the rule. If you want to invest then you do and test if not, then you don't.
@@dancoleman6502 stop gaslighting it was the normally to get paid
@@dancoleman6502 Invest, bruh Imagine telling a bunch of carpenters "Pay me $1000 and come frame my house, no you will not get the contract to build the rest of the house, but look at it as an investment" lol, lmao even.
@@yunoyukki7344 Getting paid for the work you do, what a crazy concept, huh, would be wild if that idea spread to other lines of work.
A one year alpha... So we aren't getting this to at least 2026 Q4
Beta will run concurrently with Alpha or at least that is the plan according to the organization. So, I think no later than 1 year from May 2025. At some point you need to recoup your investment from R&D if you want to leave R&D and go retail. If wait too long, then you might implode.
Severally put of AoC now!
Steven now appears to me as a charismatic manipulator. The update to the pricing for Alpha testing is an insult imho. It appears that it shows they are “testing” what they can get away with, instead of wanting people to help them make a final product. It’s also been said by Steven that the game has already got all of its funding so the completely egregious pricing is a joke imho. Diablo 4 got dragged over the coals for its game price and content, and that was a complete game (sort of). I don’t see how we should tolerate this from AoC. It stinks of bait and switch to me. Now we are getting closer to people seeing the game and investing in it, it’s becoming clearer that the actual business model is, pretend to be a game “for the people, by the people” to get coverage in news feeds etc, then switch to egregious measures upon release. $120 to work for them and get in game….. Steven seems to have shown his colours now and I won’t be looked down upon like that.! 😡
Absolutely gutted doesn’t come close to how I feel about this! 😢 if a AAA company did this?………….
Lol I agree with you and lot of people forgot what he promised at the start. He did say that the game already had enough funding to complete. At the very least he could either admit that he was wrong and it is costing more than he expected and he was in over his head in what he thought it would take and he does need help and a lot more help to compete the game.
I think where a lot of indie goes wrong is they over promise and under deliver and try to side step instead of owning up to their mistakes and be careful about making promises they know they can't deliver on or may not be able to deliver on.
The longer a game drags on beyond what they say it will and real discernable progress is not made compared to what they said was already done when it hasn't or the time frame it will take and that time drags on way beyond the time they set and continually stretch on asking for more snd more mo ey with no end in sight it is understandable where people are worried if it isn't just another vaporware money grab.
@@warners2797 additionally, when people invest in these games that still need years to produce and playable game, they forget that their life might be very different in a few years time, with changing demands on their life. Maybe they have children, new jobs, less money and thus no means of buying a new computer… etc etc… people just get caught up in the hype and loose money as a result. Once they have invested though, it’s no one’s fault but their own if they loose out. One of life’s lessons that makes you wiser I guess.
8k per servers is nice 👍🏼
Assuming that many will play. Also, assuming people won't leave after a few months.
The cope is off the charts
The mistake was listening to the losers begging for more keys. they never needed more testers.
People are so desperate for a decent mmo they will literally pay to test it 😂
yep, basically the state of things. People are so desperate for the opposite of what big companies are providing they'll pay into a crowdfunded mmo.
NGL, I get the impression that this game is either never coming out, or it's going to be meh.
Great video. Thanks,
AoC passed from an interesting game that could be to just another pyramid scam lol.
Imagine still being stuck on scam when there are literally people playing the game right now.
$250...for alpha test ur crazy unless u personally know them these days. Thats my opinion.
In general its $250 to back the development of a game you want to see come out versus current trends in the genre from bigger companies. Those pledges will generally include some sort of incentive as well such as at-launch game-time subscriptions or in-game currency to even out the cost but its obviously delayed or not promised given the nature of a crowd-funded project being uncertain.
Only MMO I play, is EverQuest, and thats just for a nostalgia hit, 3 or 4 months at the most a year. MMO's just aint gud no more.
Remember when game devs would give out keys to gamers to help test their games during Alphas? Now we pay the devs to play am Alpha? Wtf happened? The Early Acxess games seem to be a cover for Alpha testing to justify charging people for incomplete games! The industry is a joke now.
That was back when Alphas testing was for... Testing, not for marketing.
Miss the old times
Those game devs were fully-funded by large publishers. These are not the same things. When you dont have a publisher funding has to come from somewhere. You can still however get those free keys to test a game like Throne and Liberty or New World Aeternum atm if that's more your speed.
@@Redbeardflynn Steven said that this game was already fully funded....narc has documented this in his videos.
I have no confidence in AoC anymore.
What was your confidence about? I don't think there is any expectation of anything here yet is there?
It makes perfect sense to have a cost on the Alpah keys. To keep the integrity of the game they have to have a barrier to entry. You don't want a bunch of people who aren't really interested in the game and are just looking for the next new game to play testing. That's what happened to NewWorld, a bunch of people not interested in a PVP game turned into the PVE crap that was released. You want people who are going to give feedback on mechanics, bugs etc. Not people who are going to give feedback about how they want PVE servers.
This "reasoning" makes zero sense for the simple fact that there's players who've already been begging for a PvE focus since day one.
This has absolutely nothing to do with testing.
@@irishsage2459 Have they changed the focus of the game? No and people haven't been asking for PVE since day 1 the game was in kickstarter for a month and nobody was asking for PVE. When the normies heard about the game that's when the change it to PVE only started. This stage of development you want people who want to play the game your making not change the game you are making. Feedback and going over feedback are the most important things during testing and I don't think they want to waste their time looking at feedback about changing the game to PVE or put safezones in or the lawless zone sucks.
They added 15$ of cash shop + 1 month free
Yep, thats in the video.
@@Redbeardflynn Right, my bad.
@@kyschoo3075 you're good!
I see this as them juicing whales that procrastinate on buying a pack.
if they are selling 9 days of alpha access for 120$, then this game will be 100% a over priced piece of shit with a store full of p2w
You misunderstood. It's not access to the game it's for testing not playing. The testing period for first phase is what you're describing but then you also get phase two and phase three and beyond. You understand this is an investment and like all investments it's a contract and your consideration is $120 and their consideration is having you test for those periods. Also, you are placing conjecture that the game will have p2w which they have said they will not. At this point there is no evidence this will occur, not saying at some point it won't though as they would be stupid not to if they do not recoup the R&D investments. The wording Piece of Sh*t is your opinion as the game if it does come out will be what you want to get out of it. You either hate it or love it but that's all up to you and your interpretation of your experience.
@@dancoleman6502Good go ahead, buy the key, and enjoy paying to test their game for 9 days. And maybe, in 50 years, when the beta comes out for $50 per key, you can do it all over again. Oh, and when the game is finally released and the armor sets look worse than those in POE2-unless you spend $120-don't complain, because you allowed this to happen.
Dude for real what game is this that never launch? They announced it back in 2016 8 damn years ago, this is a big hoax we had this before many times.
Fools and their money is easily parted
I backed the game since Kickstarter. I've been here for ALL the controversies. The second round of Kickstarter packages, after the initial time expired... Stuffertons... Outsourcing to use another company's servers (forgot the company's name)... Blowing past the previously stated deadline for game completion... etc., etc., etc....
Personally, I didn't think the initial cost of the Alpha keys were punitive. Most of those mmo's mentioned, when compared to Intrepid, are AAA studios. Also, we have to take into account the scope of the game. The more complex the game, the more resources/money its going to take. Not every studio operates the same, so comparisons are not going to be equal.
That said, while I am admittedly annoyed about the (largely faux) outrage, and Intrepid capitulating to people who's foremost intent was just find something to hate on, for the sake of hating (my opinion)...I'm not mad about the recent changes. It doesn't hurt me in the slightest. And, if it calms down the furor...even a tiny bit...godspeed, lol. This isn't the first bit of drama for the game. It won't be the last, I'm sure.
Same, Leader of Men KS backer, been around since late 2016 (december) early 2017. Know all the "controversies" as well.😅
a big yikes.
i couldn't care less about paying for alpha testing
You cared enough to watch and comment on this video?
Hey I appreciate them watching and commenting! It helps!
@meo8258 because i hope the games good nimrod. Not caring about people overreacting ≠ not caring about the game
@@iant6943 you just said in the op that you dont care about paying for the alpha and not about peoples criticisms. Make up your mind 😂. Typical white knights
I won't be playing it now
- animation, still bad.
- movement, still clunky
these 2 aspect is still the same for years
- price, gonna be pricey for crowdfunded indie MMO
my conclusion:
for years their animation is still bad and clunky even if they are quite better now, but still bad. for the price, if the price for the base game and the subs more expensive than FFXIV or WoW, this game wont be that successful. for now its overhyped and this hype is quite dangerous for AoC since they need to be successful on their launch or else the game will be dead in months
I don't understand why they don't just do a sub fee for the testing instead of a box price.
You'd have even more outrage I think.
The issue I have with this situation is that they are selling access to these test. It's true people expiation isn't that they should be gaining access to play these test with the mind set of gaining access to a full product. But the company should not be selling the community access to a test. A major majority of these people are not buying these keys in the mind set of being a tester to help improve yhe game. And even though the dev have made it clear the state of the game you are gaining access to is thst of an unfinished product I still do not see why you are selling access to this at a hundred dollars. That a very scummy move. You shouldn't be selling access to a test in the first place. It makes me think they are not doing that for feedback.
Where did they backpaddle?? All of this informations have been said before
They added beta and one month free and 15 Embers to the keys. Started with clarification but today just a few hours ago they releases version 2 of the alpha 2 keys which made them into bundles.
I am not alone in being under the impression that the initial Alpha 2 would not be limited to weekends.
As one of the "Pantheon Patient" I am fine with this, but many expected more than initial weekend access.
Now tell me this isn't a cash grab game FAILED
It's not. A cash grab would be, pay now for release two years from now or pay for a game advantage for a game two years from now. This is asking for an investment and the consideration for the investment is testing the game pre-launch.
@@dancoleman6502 geme has been in development 10 years and at first a battle royale now this IT'S A CASH GRAB
LOL Alpha still in 2026! Seriously, $120 to test a game that has been in development since 2017. I really believe this game has now become worse than Pantheon and that is totally sad to say. If you want testers, open the game to everyone now. You'll get hundreds of thousands of bug reports and feedback which is better than a small kiss ass crowd who paid for the game thinking no matter what they create will be perfect.
@@jamescruz5637 bro it takes AAA studios 7 years to make an MMO with a smaller scope than this and 3x the team size. Indie company taking 10 years to make a bigger game with less people is somehow a surprise???
@@LordCommanderVex It's interesting to me how superficial the understanding of game development is in the gaming community. They act like they've made a game of Ashes scale and KNOW how much resources it takes and how it should be made.
It's refreshing to read comments from folks like you and others who have a grasp beyond our own feelings of how we want things to go.
You need testers + funding for an indie MMO. This is not the same as an NCSoft or Zenimax game because there's no publisher.
@Redbeardflynn sorry but there should not be any Justification for a company expecting you to pay them to test their game. And this gaslighting is ridiculous. If they need the money that bad after 7 years of development this game is already fucked.
@@xXMapcoXx if that's your red line id strongly suggest avoiding any crowdfunded projects then as it will likely be the norm since thr nature of those is Pledges from a crowd to fill in the gap of a traditional publisher. There's nothing wrong with not liking thst development model but it is the expectation of this model of funding.
Man, this game is such a hard pass for me. It's pretty, but it does not look very engaging to me.
crazy how a game that doesnt exist is a hard pass for you because it "doesnt look engaging"
@@Hooch_is_crzy I've seen enough of their design tenets and enough gameplay to know it's just an ability spamfest with no depth, and only looks pretty.
Hard pass.
@@Flea_ip you are aware that it is... in.... alpha.... right? It's not like Steven hasn't said a million times this is a current work in progress lmao
@@leehod1811 They're clearly going in a direction that doesn't interest me, and I can see that a mile away.
But hey, maybe I'll end up being wrong. Maybe we'll find out in another 7 years when it's finished.
@@leehod1811 they need to scrape and redesign this mess.
Blown out of proportion for sure. Yes, would have been better if the details were clear and exact on the live stream and not updated later that day after the stream (via reddit). I felt the $120-$100 for just Alpha 2 was fair, and now they even include the betas, so even a better deal for those who want to test and help development. For anybody out there, if you do not like the price, do not buy it. Wait for release :)
I am $250 into both Pantheon Rise of the Fallen and Ashes of Creation, and am equally disappointed and hopeful about both games.
At least I will get more hours in Pantheon in the short term.
This also gives me more time to adjust my lifestyle to accommodate more computer game time.
The details were clear for a long time. Nothing new was added later.
@@micbln8967I have been following Ashes of Creation fairly closely for the last few years, and I don't think it was clear that the initial months of Alpha 2 would be limited to weekends only.
Many creators who followed Ashes closely were clearly expecting initial Alpha 2 to have at least a week window of play at a time, although given the number of parents involved, that might have been just wishful thinking.
In any case, I am fairly certain that it was not explicitly clear that initial Alpha 2 access would be weekends only.
I want gonna get it at first since 100 just for alpha and then more money for beta wasn’t worth it for me, but since they added beta access and subscription time I’m buying it now yipee
@@micbln8967 That is not accurate. During the live AMA they said new Alpha 2 keys would only include access to the Alpha 2 and nothing else (no beta access). However, later that day/next day, Steven posted in reddit to update the details and say that the New Alpha 2 keys would also include Beta access and 1 month of subscription time and some embers for spending in the game store (once game is live..no p2w). I personally have no issue with the updated terms and am happy for those who want to buy an alpha 2 key to test.
Boycott this cashgrab