Fully realized Bolin could take either of them from stealth. If he has lava bending he also has the accuracy to shoot a lava pebble straight through their skulls, provided they don't see him.
@West Bradley-Taubner indeed it was pre flight so a bit different to the match up but I have a feeling that without P'li Tenzien would be able to take them all on even with Zaheer having flight no? Idk it would for sure be worth the watch though! And oh yeah, Iroh especially in his prime would be god-like😎.
"Individually they could take on any bender. Put them together and they could take the whole world." Alright Zuko...I refer to this commentor up here ^
@@JR1234567gamer I mean, thats clearly to hype them up as a forced to be reckoned. but its not a literal statements since we've seen them together and they did not take over the world. they lost.
I'm honestly most curious about how strong the team was that took down the Red Lotus the first time. Sokka and Zuko were in their early 70s. Tonraq and Tenzin were in their 20s-30s. Did either side have backup? Did any members on either side die? Also, I've gotta go with Piandao on accolades, vs Zaheer. He is 20 years younger than Sokka (the master he was based on was 53 at the time of Piandao's first appearance) when they fought Zaheer. His history includes defeating 100 troops the army sent to arrest him for deserting. Not only did no one ever bother him again, Ozai actually sought him out to train Zuko. That's a lot of respect.
@@ohsnapplemyapple7247, this was just a thought of mine as I watched this video. Just because a comment may be the same from another comment section, it doesn't mean its copied.
@@DarkSoul-jj2rv You know what maybe that's why he knew that there was an eclipse coming and decided to surrender rather destroying his city trying to defend it.
@@DarkSoul-jj2rv We should cut him some slack as he forgot why he jumped out of his coffin during the Eclipse. He only remembered it because the soldiers couldn't bend.
I wish we got to see more non bender vs bender fights. We never actually got to see a master fighter like piando and Zaheer take on any benders without bending
@@gensischosen251 equalist without their electric sticks losed so many fights against the team avatar. They weren't really non-benders coz they used electric shocks
@@GokuInfintysaiyan Bumi was never shown to be that accurate. And for that to happen she has to be distracted by someone else, which won't be the case in a 4v4 fight. Not to mention that she can spam like crazy and shoot six times in seven seconds, and even twice in one second.
@@Spherrum She also has weaker combustion bending feat wise than combustion man, AND it’s shown to be a hard type of bending to control. The comet could end up hurting her Also, it doesn’t really matter, Zuko was able to fire-wall defend against combustion man. Iroh AND Jeong Jeong would both be empowered and could easily create a very strong wall that wouldn’t budge at all from P’Li since she’d be the only one gaining the buff meanwhile Iroh (who has the greatest firebending raw power feat we ever see) and Jeong Jeong (known for his fire wall) would both be empowered.
I feel like you don’t give enough credit to piandow. He may be a non bender however most people skip the fact that he’s not just a sword master but he does have the additional accolade of defeating an entire army Jeong jeong and piandow have essentially the same backstory in that they are both fire nation military deserters, but where jeong jeong went into hiding, piandow traveled the world to learn from different benders and non benders alike, after that he went home and this is where he really shows his worth, jeong jeong stayed in hiding, piandow went home to the fire nation and when they sent a 100 man army to apprehend him as a deserter, he defeated the whole thing. He’s the only person touted as having solo taken on such massive numbers, I mean the fire nation doesn’t just give up attacking someone with no reason, it had to have been clear that no matter what they threw at him piandow would come out on top short of ozai or azula going to face him head on
I was about to type Piando his whole backstory about how he defeated a army of 500 men only with a sword And the fire nation’s army consists of benders as well as non-benders
I think what's often forgotten is that combustion bending while extremely powerful is still a form of fire bending and fire bending can be defused by other firebenders. So while pl'i might have supercharged fire bending a fully powered Jeong jeong or iroh could easily fire wall it similar to how zuko did with combustion man with much less of a adverse effect considering zuko waa nowhere near master level when he did this in ATLA. But idk that's just my speculation on the first Bonus Scenario the 2nd obviously goes to red lotus 😂😂
Thats exactly what happened in the analysis though. Antoine left Jeong Jeong to keep Pli busy, but her attack is still long range and he can only block stuff coming at him. Also a fire wall leaves Jeong Jeong exposed to direct attacks, you dont just get to leave that up for free, it requires constant supervision.
Problem with that is it is nothing to her girl right after getting imprisoned in the north pole got attacked by a dragon yet was able to make that dragons fire her own and attack it right after that
P’li was a better combustion bender cus not only does she not have to combustion bend in a straight line she was also extremely skilled at regular firebending and who knows, maybe she could generate lightning
To be fair, none of those army members did anything impressive I'm not downplaying the white lotus, but considering the fire nation had more sozins comet firebenders the army hardly did anything
Regardless even if they were fodder they were still all highly supercharged from the comet which stilll says a whole lot about the white lotus taking them out
Phanboi Chau this is from avatar wiki “When the comet comes close to Earth's atmosphere, Firebenders can draw from it to become as powerful as a hundred suns.” Doesn’t matter who they were. Pakku, Bumi and Piandao were still taking them out.
There was no fire bending army in Ba Sing Se. There were alot of non bending troops, helpless against benders, and a few dozens of firebenders at best, who had no chances against Iroh and Jeong Jeong - military commanders and masters at bending with decades of experience. Jeong Jeong was flying for crying out loud. And we didn't see Iroh doing much except breaking through the first wall and burning the flag in the end.
West Bradley-Taubner That’s reasonable, Tenzin could have 1v3 the red lotus and Iroh being legendary, definitely top 3 benders of his element that we know of that are not avatars, should mean that he can at least defeat Zaheer (non bending and pre flight) and depending on the situation any one of the other three (likely Ghazan or pre unavaatu Unalaq) take your pick.
@@dr.c6260 the thing is they were not trying to kill him at all ming wasnt in her best elements which is any area with lots of water and Ghazan didnt even attempt to use lava bending at all
Man, you are so THOROUGH with your analysis and your editing! Almost making it seem like they’re in an actual brawl is just top notch. Keep up the great work, we’re all loving the content!!
Damn this was hard to analyse. Probably the best possible interpretation on youtube for this matchup, and lets be real this is each team fighting each other with no obvious tactical blunders on either side (which is actually something that would probably happen). Seriously either side could totally take a win in either of the 2 scenarios, and you did an amazing job keeping this mess coherent. You deserve those views
@@qinlee1182 It does. Bumi used a special technique to make his life longer, and make it so his age doesn't affect his body and combat abilities. Iroh and Jeong Jeong on the other hand are old. They still can fight and they are still very powerful, but they just don't have necessary agility and speed to fight Ming Hua, or to keep themselves away from lava, or to dodge P'li's explosions.
AngelsRage Unleashed yeah we saw tenzin beat up zaheer untill the rest of the red lotus came along, so I’d reckon Aang would completely destroy him with air bending alone.
GenericName 33 to be fair Zaheer only had airbending for a few weeks, I reckon he would be one of the strongest airbenders if he became a master, maybe not Aang level or airbending but definitely up there.
I agree with a lot of this actually, P'li would definitely be the make or break member of the fight, plus she has curved aim unlike Combustion Man. Maybe next could be Korra and her team avatar (post Bolin lavabending) vs Aang and his team avatar (post Zuko joining). Or would that be redundant since you've already done 1 vs 1 scenarios for some of them? Idk I think it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the fight would go with the team dynamics
It would be very interesting as a matter of fact, but if Antoine deicdes to give korras team any kind of victory then several hardcore atla fans might get pissed off and force the video down like azula vs kuvira or destroy the comments section like toph vs kuvira
I’ve always wanted to see this from someone as smart as you. Also a couple days ago you reminded me about Degrassi and now I’ve been binging it so thanks for that.
@@controlman7490 I’ve been on and off watching it. Still not done tbh. I’m currently in season 8 and have only seen a couple characters I maybe recognize. I’m not entirely sure tbh
another reason people overrate the white lotus is because the one time we saw them fight together was during sozen's comet and 2 of them are firebenders
Pakku, Bumi and Piandao were all kicking ass idk whats so overrated about that. Iroh and Jeong Jeong are already strong as it is the comet just shows how superior they are to just about anyone.
Fernando Ribas Paimde Almeida no she couldn’t. She could briefly propel herself in a direction and slow her decent. The only people to ever truly fly were either Zaheer or an avatar in avatar state. Fire isn’t sustainable enough for a bender to fly unassisted, except for in rare cases, like Sozin’s Comet, or in cases of the Avatar State augmented ones power
I fully agree with this assessment. A lot of people have biases for the White Lotus for winning their fights. But they did receive the protagonists treatment.
I think the next Avatar novel should be about the red lotus. It could be a 3 book series starting with zaheer joining the red lotus and forming his team. It could go into detail about all of their origins and who they are. Book 2 could go into missions they went on and go more in depth on the organizations goal. We could see more of Unalaq and further understand him as a villian. The final book would be about finding korra and enacting their plan of kidnapping her and it could end in them failing. The epilogue could end with zaheer in present day plotting his escape from prison ( just a personal headcanon.)
Phanboi Chau you’re right, it pobably won’t work against Pli as Zhao did since she’s a fire bender but it would be a difficult move for everyone else to counter. I’m not sure if they’d be able to anticipate that move. Even if they do, I’m not sure sure how they’d escape that much fire
@@kwp5022 There are many times when I thought "why doesn't Toph/Bolin just trap their opponents with earth like Aang did with Ozai?" I guess they could, but it would make the show less interesting. I think it's kinda the same for this.
Unai Agueda that’s true. he did chase fire nation tanks away during sozin’s comet with those tall fire walls so maybe he could do the same to Ming hua or Ghazan
I wish there were more fight scenes with the White Lotus personally. There's not much there for the masters in that team in comparison to the Red Lotus.
@@Spherrum Because it's a fairly well-known contentious subject in the fan-community with relatively little established evidence. Very much like, "Did Suki die young" Short answer: No, and there's no other interesting details. Long answer: Probably not, but there's compelling fan theorizing for it to be yes that makes for a very interesting non-canon perspective on the course of the universe's history. I suppose you can make an argument for that it's an interesting enough subject that warrants the traffic it might receive if Antoine did a video of it, but he really strikes me as the type of person to not wade into such hypothetical territory outside of his regular theoretical Vs. Matchups.
@@alearnedman Firstly, there is no information about what happened to Suki, so the answer to that question cannot be anything but "i don't know". And " No, probably no" etc. is just assumptions. Secondly, he did his share of theorising videos, about this topic too. That they couldn't have children, for example. Thirdly, my original question was "What of it if Sokka did die there?"
@@Spherrum "Firstly, there is no information about what happened to Suki" ...... Do you not understand that that's literally exactly one of the points I was trying to get accross? And really, the main thrust of my initial statement is that the main thing anyone would actually care about is whether or not/if Sokka had died defending Korra from the Red Lotus attack on her. Disregarding that question, and expanding from that incident, the only way you could go is either supposing how all the Red Lotus got caught in on instance, or hyper-theorizing about how they got separated and the individual instances of them being defeated and captured, all of which have such an important insane amount of variables, that they basically enter into fanfiction territory rather than Who would win? Battles. Just saying, that doesn't quite seem like the sort of topic Antoine usually goes in for.
Ok. What I love so much about this video is how IN DEPTH it is. I love the different scenarios, because it shows what would happen at different points of these guy's lives. ESPECIALLY with Zaheer having Airbending in his utility of moves. Great job on this! I really enjoyed it! Of course the 2nd scenario was my favorite, but it was cool to hear the insight of it all
Remember in TLA how Zuko was able to stonewall a point blank strike from Combustion Man with his own firebending? The amount of raw power we see from both Iroh and Jeong Jeong without a power up makes me think they're going to do a little more than just deadlock her in a head-to-head assault. It'd be a close match, certainly, but I do think either one of them could bring her down.
What raw power feats from JJ and Iroh show that they can block P'li's attacks? And Zuko could barely block CM's blast and it was the weakest blast by far
@@dominic7038 well, in the episode you meet Jeong-Jeong, he Firebends a gigantic wall of flames above a RIVER. This is him past his prime and to block P'Li, he could easily make a smaller and more manageable wall to block her whilst retaining more energy (if Zuko, a not yet master-level bender at the time, fought Combustion Man and managed to block/stall him, a presumably fully-trained Bender, I cannot see why Jeong-Jeong can't stall P'Li). He is a capable master with wisdom and raw power. (As for your comment about a weak blast, maybe it wasn't the strongest, but Zuko did well to block it. It was definitely not the weakest blast, CM's weakest blast would be in the episode where Toph and Katara are captured; specifically when he nearly blows himself up. He blew Zuko off the cliff, so as I said, weaker, definitely, but CM wasn't exactly holding back either. Zuko had passed his use, he had no reason to keep his employer-turned-enemy alive.) Iroh, on the other hand, despite being known as "The Dragon of the West", took on Azula and the Dai Li with one cup of tea. The Dai Li would undoubtedly know of Iroh due to their archives and Azula and they still made the mistake of underestimating him. During "Siege of the North Part 2" he also took on an enraged Zhao and his guards in the freezing cold to boot and didn't break a sweat - and, further to boot, he wasn't in his prime. Going back to Azula, he contended with her in the Book 2 Finale and, on his terms, chose to surrender. To sum up: JJ can Firebend a gigantic wall of flames across a sizable river past his prime; Iroh can take on a Firebending prodigy plus her recently acquired Dai Li (with prep time) whilst being surrounded, taken by initial surprise and armed with no immediate power source other than tea. Its unfair to JJ because you don't see much of him till virtually the very end of ATLA when his power is boosted by Sozin's Comet. If this were either JJ or Iroh alone taking on P'Li, this would a different conclusion. However, you have two very powerful masters fighting together. It might be a slight struggle, but without help, P'Li would be overwhelmed IMHO.
@@mr_earwig6477 idk about that though. That giant fire wall was big but even Zhao could penetrate it. And while Iroh held back the Dai Li and Azula, he certainly could not defeat them. He eventually had to flee. P’li on the other hand nearly mopped the floor with a bunch of metal clan warriors and two earthbending masters It’s a lot of speculation. Ok maybe Zuko didn’t block his weakest blast but that blast was still far from CM’s strongest and far from P’li’s strongest combustion explosions as well
@@dominic7038 it is a lot of speculation for sure. But between Iroh and Jeong-Jeong I doubt P'Li would win. She's a powerful, talented bender vs two powerful strategists who's only real weaknesses might be their ages. P'Li would, I think, eventually underestimate one/both of them. She'd put up a good fight though.
@@mr_earwig6477 I doubt P'li will underestimate any of them. P'li is smarter than that. And just because both of them are strategist doesn't mean that both can take her in a 1v1. She has a near perfect track record against dragons and pretty much has a response to everything both Iroh and Jeong Jeong can do.
TheYEETGang Ohyeahyeah good fight Both at there prime When Iroh was a conqueror (Dragon Of The West) And Zaheer in Korra I think Iroh but I’d love to see that fight
Iroh during the Day of Black Sun vs Zaheer without bending. I'd say Zaheer, as he'd have ancient Airbender techniques unknown to the world. Similar to how Aang had early advantages against opponents as they had limited or nonexistent knowledge of fighting Airbending at all.
Ah yes its easy to forget how skilled unalaq is due to my utter distain for his *existence* but he plays a bunch of interesting factors I never considered! Ming hua vs pakku is the most hype of the fights for me! But Its interesting to see that bumi is the white lotus leader and not iroh and inspired thought process for you!
Yea no one like unalaq but u have to respect his bending, he was casually every other water bender and wasn't even worried about korra water bending. He is one the most dangerous water benders ever .he's literally just miss blood bending... I think he could beat pakku and jiong jiong. Because he quick and sneaky .
@RonnyLamar KylesJr. You don't have to, but i can't understand you otherwise. Don't be such a child and put some effort into expressing your thoughts. Or are you too afraid that you have no chances in an argument if your opponent can understand you?
It’s weird how many people forget unalaq was a member of the red lotus Also this is just an idea but could you do all variations of Aangs team avatar all vs all variations of red lotus
I think that just isn't fair what so ever we see zaheer can't beat masters Katara was the best water bender in atla and she would use more ice than water Zuko really zuko was taught by the ogs and iroh Toph and ghazan might and thats a big might lose because earth could lose to lava P`li is the biggest factor she goes they win
Damn my comment is confusing to read Im saying I think toph would struggle bc lava is just gonna melt i can only see seismic sense coming in clutch Sokka would beat p'li like sparky sparky boom man Zuko could take all if you ask me Katara would beat ming hua soly because her unique styles Aang would literally was zaheer im talking no avatar state clap zaheer
I love this video, any vs debate that actually takes the time to discuss the tactics both teams would employ is something that should be admired, it's so much more interesting than the standard character x beats d so x helps y style of debate that some people do. what really sells it for me is how thorough you are with every character. definitely going into my playlist of great vs scenarios.
My version of the second scenario. Bumi vs Zaheer Iroh vs Pi Li Jeong Jeong vs Ghazan Pakku + Piando vs Ming Hau Bumi fights Zaheer due to Bumi's likely experience against airbending. Zaheer isn't able to trip up Bumi the way he would other opponents. Iroh would keep Pi Li busy while inching closer. Jeong Jeong would be on the defensive against Ghazan. Pakku would be fighting even with Ming Hau with Piando taking swipes at her. Kinda like the fight in the Boiling Rock with Zuko + Sokka vs Azula. Iroh would eventually get close enough to Pi Li to take her out. Pi Li doesn't seem very good at normal firebending and her Combustion bending would be worthless up close. Iroh would go help Jeong Jeong. Ghazan is used to overwhelming his opponents but Iroh would be able to continue an offensive towards him especially with Jeong Jeong being a very defensive firebender. Ultimately ghazan is defeated. Ming Hau has managed to take out Piando and has Pakku against the ropes. Jeong Jeong would go help Pakku while Iroh goes to help Bumi. Jeong Jeong takes a shot at Ming Hau getting her to redirect focus to him. Ming Hau strikes at Jeong Jeong but he creates a fire wall to block it. (Yes it can survive water. In the Deserter he makes a fire wall on top of the river.) Jeong Jeong sends the firewall forward. Ming Hau gets out of the way but is met with more fire. Pakku makes a few small strikes but is too hurt to do much. He manages to slip up her movement and Jeong Jeong finishes her off. Jeong Jeong goes to fight Zaheer while Pakku rests. Zaheer is having a lot of trouble with Bumi and Iroh. Iroh isn't as experienced as Bumi and gets tripped up by Zaheer (same way Aang does nearly every opponent in ATLA except Bumi. I'm not saying Zaheer is a better fighter than Iroh I'm saying Zaheer's air bending seems unnatural to pretty much anyone.) but Bumi is able to stop Zaheer from landing a good blow (pun intended). Jeong Jeong joins the fight and helps Bumi distract Zaheer. Iroh hits Zaheer with a surprise lightning strike (he's too distracted to get away from it.)
@RonnyThaDonKyles did you read the scenario or just the match-ups? Iroh is a very good strategist and would be able to get in close. In a fight at close range, Pi'Li is helpless (she's not good at regular firebending, and a combustion attack wouldn't be a viable option).
Bumi has no experience fighting air benders he would be a young kid and never stated he fought air benders before. Iroh or jeong Jeong can’t keep Pli busy.
@RjZyon I didn't say he'd be rushing up to her as if he were someone like Ty Lee. I said "inching closer" as in moving from one piece of cover to the next while she's firing her combustion blasts. Edit- and for Bumi, so what if he had been a kid? Aang had clearly experienced fighting/sparing with firebenders before he was frozen, noted ny his comment to Sokka "You should try it sometime" when talking about fighting firebenders with fun. Furthermore, Bumi is the only character Aang fights who doesn't get tripped up by Air, showing it's not an alien concept to him like it is everyone else. He also knows that it's "typical Airbender strategy" to "avoid and evade" so he clearly knows how they fight and has experienced it.
@Wes Bradley-Taubner Aang doesn't have many chances against Korra. Zuko doesn't have a definitive edge on Mako. Toph has nothing on lavabending. Suki doesn't have a chance against Asami with the shocking glove, regardless of Sokka's help. I can give you Appa and Momo. But there is still Katara and the fight is unfair. Add to Korra's team any character from Lin, Su, Tenzin, Tonraq, Eska or Desna, Kai, Opal, Kya, Kuvira while she was in Su's guard, Wei or Wing (Su's twin sons), General Iroh (junior), and Aang's team will lose in 8/10 scenarios.
It’s in my notes. Not sure when I’ll actually do it. The general geek talks and theory videos are so much easier to produce with higher R0I. I’m still trying to figure out how to scale back on VS so they don’t take so long to produce.
I disagree that Ming hua would be at a disadvantage against Iroh. his lightning bending is much MUCH slower that Makos, and giving how quick she is even trying it would open him up to one of her attacks. People don't seem to realise but Mako was a prodegy in lightning bending, he's the only person we seen who was able to do it instantly, everyone else trying it had a huge startup on it, even Azula who was quickish still had a startup.
Azula used lightning with no startup in comics tho. And to be honest, Ming Hua is only relevant when she has LOTS of water, which is ideal for a lightning bender.
WarZealot1 Nah. Only for ones like Mako who can shoot lightning with minimal wind-up. Iroh is slow, and Ming Hua can take him down before he finishes winding up.
After this video, I kinda wanna see team avatar vs the white lotus. Both atla and korra’s group. Obviously the masters taught many of the characters, Katara was potentially past paku at the end of atla, toph stale mates with bumi we know, and team avatar has.. the avatar... I think Zuko and sokka would be weak points but throw in suki to maybe even the odds. Love the vid!
GREAT EDITING WITH THE CLIPS. Appreciate the work man. When talking about, let’s say Ming Wa controlling the field, you showed clips of her doing that. Great great work man
I think the idea of a 1v1 scenario kind of inherently stacks things against the red lotus, who are clearly pretty impenetrable when fighting together. Ghazan and P'Li just have too much coverage and range, I don't think the white lotus has an answer. Ghazan could make a magma field around them to prevent anyone from approaching. The only way P'Li gets taken out is with metal bending or a very long range sneak attack, which white lotus doesn't have. Even in the last scenario without P'Li, that would definitely alter zaheer's tactics and he could be everywhere at once basically. The only way red lotus members lose is in 1v1's or by severely outnumbering them, so I think you ignored their inherent strengths. In a coordinated fight, red lotus wins every scenario for me.
We forget that The Legend of Korra enhanced and built upon previous bending and fighing tactics, which may, more likely than not, hold greater weight against the old benders and their skills.
@RonnyLamar KylesJr. Thank you for your input. I was talking in general for certain aspects, however, like how metal bending was worked on and made quite efficient for use in the police force; P'li's combustion is more creative and appears in many ways to be of a higher level than combustion man's; and like how what's-her-face's use of water to replace her arms was certainly a profound kind of waterbending not before seen in ATLA. I never said that the Red Lotus was made of individuals with raw power, and never indicated that the original heroes wouldn't have demolished them. It was their skills, as you said, that I was acknowledging. However, it appears that you would argue that the heroes in ATLA would "demolish heroes in Tlok", simply due to "raw power". None of this was mentioned in my previous comment; I meant only that the bending was repurposed or gained newer uses and aspects through development. I would say that the experience of battle of the older ATLA folks-Sokka and Zuko specifically in your example-will certainly come into play in such a fight as the one you mentioned; not simply their "raw power". The tactics and cunning with which one engages their opponent will be a significant factor in deciding the outcome of a battle; whether it is between older and newer generations, or a generation against itself. I've seen plenty of battles in ATLA to know that many of them were won with creative and skillful fighting rather than brute force. I never bothered watching past a few episodes of TLOK, even after trying a couple of times, as it never piqued my interest; but perhaps I should have if only to make a better, more educated point when making general statements rather than taking from what little I've seen of it through clips and scenes on TH-cam to... Make general statements. As it is not the point I was trying to make, I refute your argument. Both power and skill come into play when determining the outcome of a fight. I appreciate the straightforwardness of the argument you made; however, sometimes skills do win over demolishing, raw power, even in the world of discourse and debate.
The second scenario seems unlikely to me with the matchup. They lost one bender but another combatant gained bending. Being outnumbered means a lot. It enhances Zaheer's evasiveness to survive but doesn't add much in offense. Any other bender could keep him engaged while Piandao focuses on a less mobile opponent like Gazan or P'Li. I do think Zaheer would be easily able to reposition himself away from Piandao but if he couldn't give out orders in a 1v1 he definitely can't in a 2v1. Here is also where strategy comes in play. We see the Red Lotus always depending on Zaheer for guidance but the White Lotus we see act independent. Iroh is an experienced General, Bumi a leader and mad genius, through Piandao's lessons we can see how he is wise and strategic, Jeong Jeong shows himself to control the flow of battle and we see Pakku and Piandao co-ordinate together in the attack on Ba Sing Se. The Red Lotus is going to base their defense around P'Li again while Zaheer either stays there and loses his advantage or runs around the battlefield being an evasive neusance but not able to take anyone down. He'd be at higher risk being away from his team on the battlefield as well as leaving his team weakened. On the other hand The White Lotus is adaptable, able to change up their tactics individually as they see fit and would likely overwhelm the Red Lotus' defenses. We saw how Zaheer in a 1vs1 lost to Tenzin because he was no master bender yet. In a match up against a master he does not measure up and instead survives till his team can save him. With his team already being outnumbered and having to defend P'li for any level of battlefield control Zaheer would likely remain as one of the last combatants while one by one his team goes down. And then unlocks flight and flies off... 😅 My thoughts on how this match-up would fare. Piandao and Zaheer were equals till endfight while Pakku and Unulaq were equals till endfight too. Losing one but having the other gain bending is a net loss and being outnumbered is a big factor. Cool breakdown though, though my thoughts differ they're very close and I respect the amount of detail you went into!
Powerful Firebenders like Jong Jong and Iroh can fly, they could give Zaheer a run for his money. All the others have unique skills, but I think the ATLA White Lotus could match them through sheer power. Think about it, the Red Lotus were after all defeated and imprisoned by the White Lotus and others before LoK, even though that White Lotus was likely inferior to the old masters. And if Team Avatar, a couple Beifongs, and few random metal clan guards could send them retreating from Zao Fu, think the old White Lotus would have an especially good chance.
The issue in this match up for the WL is all but one of their members are only top tier for their time (Bumi) and not benders that would stand comfortably with the best benders of history. RL appears to have at least two that could solely due to their unique bending styles in Gazan and P’Li and then Zaheer after learning flight. That’s a stacked team. P’Li is the biggest piece on this board. If the WL can’t deal with her, they lose every time. Thus making Bumi the 2nd biggest piece on the board and is the only one on the WL that could reliably take down P’Li due to his overwhelming power and experienced cunning tactics. But due to Gazan’s unique bending that counters normal earth bending, the RL has the perfect stall against Bumi. And while I do feel Jeong Jeong can slow P’Li down some, it’d be nothing to the extent Gazan can against Bumi. Thus it becomes a battle of which side can free up the first fighter to assist either Bumi so he can defeat P’Li or assist P’Li/Gazan to defeat Bumi.
@@marclyrichard9756 Bending is relatively short ranged compared to combustion bending. One of the advantages to Pli is she can accuratly fire from much further than any bender of the battlefield, and ti doesnt even need to be precise, just within a couple of metres. Iroh is def a firebender that can contend with Pli, but we have to consder lots of factors like him not being able to shield all his allies. That there isnt easy as Plis combustion bending doesnt take much charge time to activate. That being said, Bumi can certainly shield himself, he just puts lots of rock in the way. But theres a reason Antoine says that Piandou is the weak link and that Pli is the top player throughout this vid.
Ya forgot Jon jon could actually control his fire flight, I feel like that would help along the way somewhere by making a harder target to hit. Maybe rain down some carpet bombing firebending style
Avatar Mufasa ok but while P’Li is combustion bending she really can’t move so Iroh can honestly beat her fairly easy think about it like this while she’s just blasting stuff Iroh can charge up the lightning and that’s Instant K.O. She’s really can die just like combustion man she just has a lil bettter aim
I would definitely agree for the white lotus the masters would win with no comet or hermano convergence defeat all 5 red Lotus members definitely So far two points for the white lotus two points for the red lotus it’s a tie
I've held out watching this for a year. Now that I've seen this, I found a little oversight that you did on scenario 2, in it you did Firebender vs Firabender, Firebender vs Waterbender, Earthbender vs Earthbender, a Airbender vs Nonbender and Waterbender. What you have done that's an oversight was the line up. The OG White Lotus was a group of masters that worked in sync with each other, so the 2 v 1 could've easily been Iroh or king Bumi instead of master Paku and it could've changed the end result by either prolonging the loss or the White Lotus obtaining victory; giving them a clean sweep between the 3 scenarios.
i would think that iroh would be the leader of the white lotus because he is a grand lotus edit : also bumi is insanely op, he took back his whole city
WL overrated.Iroh is reputation and hype and past accolades as a general not bender and no impressive feats besides Sozin comet. Jeong Jeong has not shown any offensive attacks only defense. The Red Lotus underrated
what if combustion bending doesn’t work as well during sozins comet because combustion bending probably requires a certain amount of precision and with the extra boost it is hard to contain and it just explodes in mid air
@@tendyboiz1046 Things to note here -For scenario 3, Its generally implied that range is something limiting Zaheer and hes only ever applied the technique against helpless opponents ie The earth queen and also Korra after shes basically completely paralysed. He has never employed this in a fight. Had this been a 3 hrs video, Antoine probably wouldve explained this point. But just working out who fights who and the rough beats to a fight was hard enough work. Also, Iroh has lightning, which would act as a super long range weapon. And Zaheers removal of air doesnt seem to be based on its 2 attempts by Zaheer (both within 20-30ft) Which points do you think he underestimates the red lotus?
@@avatarmufasa3628 more the fact that he had piando surviving as long as he did by forcing him to team up and not just letting him also 1v1 to male it a good fight in the first round
@@tendyboiz1046 One, surely thats underestimating the White lotus not the red? As Piandao is part of the white lotus. And the reason for that. As of right now its impossible for people to imagine him keeping up with full on bending masters, the show hasnt allowed us to see that opportunity as of yet. Everyone else at least seems to have an answer on some level to Pli. But Piandao has nothing
I just disagree in the second scenario that Zaheer would be able to keep going to the late fight against Iroh. I mean, Tenzin would have wiped Zaheer if not intervened, and I rate Iroh at least equally to Tenzin, if not above. Great video btw, for real, I love how these are thought out.
Iroh doesn’t have the agility or mobility necessary unlike Tenzin. And fighting an old fat fire bender is different than fighting an air bender. @eduardofreitas8336
Didn't they show in the avatar Roku volcano scene that advanced firebenders can bend the heat out of lava to resolidify it? If I'm remembering right, that gives Jeong Jeong and Iroh a pretty good shot against Ghazan.
Iroh can instantly conjure lightning as we’ve seen in the show, so I’m sure that it wouldn’t take that much. Edit: and wouldn’t Paku also be able to get water from Ming Hua?
More the other way round. The closest we have seen with a fight from Ming Hua against a traditional waterbender is when Ming Hua fights Kya. And the fight is pretty one sided with the only time Kya gets a solid hit doesnt really do anything to disable Ming Hua. As for Iroh, to hit a target as quick as Ming Hua with lightning and Iroh not being as quick as Ozai or Azula high (just be raw charge up time Iroh is slower here), so its harder to say he will get a quick win against Ming Hua. Besides, Antoine does give Iroh the win here, it just isnt a quick one
Avatar Mufasa i dont know about that. Do you remember iroh attacking zhao’s soldier at the north pole? Or when he attacked azula’s soldiers during episode 1 of book 2? He didn’t really use lightning then, but he was still quick as hell. I doubt that he would be much slower than ozai and/or azula. I even see him dominating against ming hua and make her evade the fight as much as possible.
Marvel Loux I wouldn’t say simply being quick in general = quick lightning generation. I’m still waiting for a timestamp so I can’t confirm , but most of Iroh’s lightning was still pretty slow, too slow to catch someone like Ming Hua easily. I also highly doubt he would be “dominating” against Ming Hua. Not only have we seen here do a waterspout with limited water , we saw Korra and Unalaq do one while fighting in the same location (it showed that they had massive amounts of water) so she’d definitely have way more amounts of pressure considering the water available to her. In no way will Iroh present any sort of pressure to a mobile water bender like her, especially when being evasive is already part of her game plan.
Im not entirely sure who would win, but I personally don't think the White Lotus is overrated, maybe fanboys might overestimate them, but at least here there are pretty good reasons: Pakku was the top master in the Northern Water Tribe Piandao was the greatest swordsman of the era and maybe of all time (don't quote me on the second half 😅) Jeong Jeong was a respected Admiral of the Fire Navy, who knew so much about fire bending that even though Zhao didn't properly absorb his lessons, he was still able to use them to become feared amongst the Fire Nation and even an Admiral. Bumi was arguably the greatest Earthbender of the Era and easily within the top 5 greatest earthbenders of all time. General Iroh was a living legend and the quoted "pride of the Fire Nation" and formerly the top general within it's ranks. With titles and accolades such as these it's hard not to assume they would win most confrontations with anyone that's not the best of the best.
The problem here is that the members of the White Lotus are old. Yes, they are legendary for a reason, and yes, in terms of skills, experience and raw power most of them are superior to most of the Red Lotus members. But except for Bumi and Pakku they just don't have necessary agility and speed to stay safe from lava that can appear under their feet at any moment, or from P'li's explosions (and she can spam her beams like crazy), or Ming Hua's crazy fast, chaotic, unpredictable, unorthodox and very aggressive style and tactics. Another very important thing to consider is the fact that the Red Lotus members are not only very lethat each on their own, but they are also very well coordinated, organized and experienced in fighting specifically as a team, which is something you just can't say about the White Lotus members who didn't fight together side by side that much. Also, not to downplay Piandao, but i just can't see him doing a thing against anyone of the Red Lotus, even Zaheer, who according to Zuko was able to take down any bender even before becoming a bender himself.
@Dre jr Kya wasn't even close to beating Zaheer or Ming Hua, and these four guys made a mess that sent the largest country in the avatar world into chaos for years, so i think you downplay them a bit too much. Mako only managed to survive due to instant lightning, and they ganged on Ghazan who was giving Bolin alot of trouble. Suyin didn't defeat P'li in a fight, she sneak attacked after P'li was holding the entire metal clan with Lin and Su at bay for quite some time.
@Rj-Lamar ghazan wasn’t overwhelmed by anything. And suyin got a sneak attack in. She’d never be able to win one on one. Stop underestimating red lotus
I think it's reasonable to speculate that Zaheer could chi block, that skill was initially known by Ty Lee who would be most associated with air and that could give him an edge. He never decided to use it later on because he never had to because of distance
I think your underestimating piandao. Just cause he’s not a bender does not make him a weak opponent, his skill has taken down dozens of fire Benders and earth Benders. He killed 100 fire Benders by himself in his late 50’s.
I feel like in a majority of these scenarios Bumi could have focused on P'li from the beginning of any of the fights and been able to encase her in rock pretty early on making her useless throughout the other fights tipping each of the fights in favor of White Lotus, but I guess that could have been too easy
People overrate ghazan....ghazan had a problem with bolin when he started lava bending ghazan has always been overconfident he had a problem with bolin even when bolin had learned lava like a week ago ....plus ghazan started with normal earthbending in the catacombs until he remembered so ghazan isn't that smart ....bumi is super ahead ...plus ghazan can be overwhelmed with alot of rocks coming his ways ....I see bumi better
Bumi could just burrow underground to get out of the fight with Ghazan. Bumi would definitely insist on being the one to take on airbending Zaheer due to him being the only one to go against an Airbender before. And I'm not just talking about Bumi vs Aang. Bumi had fought a lot of Airbenders before that and that's why he wasn't immediately taken out by Aang like all of Aang's other opponents who weren't used to Airbender tactics.
@RonnyThaDonKyles *that we've seen. Bumi clearly had experience with airbenders. "Typical airbending strategy: avoid and evade. I'd hoped the avatar would be less predictable."- Bumi during his fight with Aang. Yes Zaheer does fight like an airbender. Sure he's more aggressive but he still has a similar fighting style.
@@vision-dz6cmwe go on what we have seen we don’t speculate not fair Yes Bumi beats Zaheer because he’s way stronger not cause he has experience with air benders considering he was a little kid when they were around
Btw Iroh in the underground cave of Ba Sing Se held off the Dai Li, Azula and Zuko, the Dai Li being expert earth benders, and Zuko and Azula being specially trained, keep in mind there were alot of Dai Li agents, and Iroh only lost because he resented, could've held them off, and defeated some of the Dai Li and possibly Zuko or Azula. He only knew he would lose, and that's why he gave up.
Your overrating the WL colonel mongke traded blows with iroh. And he was captured by mooks And Zhao went in Jeong jeong fire wall And Iroh.Pakku.Jeong Jeong.Piandao have never fought seriously or against a skilled bender. Iroh and Jeong jeong doesn't have speed or agility. And Iroh has no large scale bending besides sozin comet. Iroh really just only has hype. Iroh didn't hold off the Dai lee he threw 3 attacks then got captured that's not impressive
He didn’t hold off the dai Lee and azula he got captured in seconds. And azula already knocked him out once. And Iroh got captured by fodder earth benders. Iroh has no good feats
This is awesome and I haven’t even seen any content yet I don’t comment on really any of your videos but I’ve been subscribed for YEARS and you’re one of my favorites
No no thank you lol I love your vs videos the most at the moment and I’ve been going back and rewatching a few. Could you put together a playlist of them all though? Having trouble finding them all
I agree with most of this video except for: I think iroh would be the “leader” due to his experience in battle and him being a general in the past. In scenario two. I think piandao and pakku can really beat ming hua. Pakku can keep her busy with long range attacks while piandao comes in close range. She will be too busy fighting both of them at the same time and will lose during mid fight i think. So without unalaq and with ming hua taken out, i think the red lotus will be out numbered too much. Also keep in mind that, yes the red lotus gained a bender with zaheer, but lost a bender with unalaq, so they basicly just lost their non bender. I don’t think zaheers bending skills will make up for the loss of unalaq. i don’t think that the red lotus will win against the white lotus while being outnumbered, due to the combined skills and bending mastery of the white lotus. I believe They will take advantage of facing less opponents.
RonnyLamar KylesJr. Morals on nerfs Jeong Jeong a lot since he is a pacifist, and puts up walls to defend and immobilize his enemies.Imagine what he can do with his raw power bloodlusted
Dr.C even a pacifist jeong jeong is a force to be reckoned with. His fire walls are huge even without sozin comet, and he creates them out of no where. What’s even more incredible is when the first time they showed the white lotus. The gaang and appa where completely surrounded by a high firewall (that wasn’t even a straight line, but actually circled around the gaang). And when they showed each member of the white lotus, they didn’t even show jeong jeong using his hand to firebend. He just stood there. Wether he did need hand gestures to firebend or not. That feat alone still shows a complete mastery of fire bending.
RonnyLamar KylesJr. I understand what you mean, technically speaking, they could all be the leaders. But iroh being the main leader in this particular battle makes the most sense to me. Because 1 he was a general for years. He used to be the only person who broke through the walls of ba sing se not so long before tla happend. 2: he was also leading the campaign of the white lotus to free basing se. 3 bumi was a king of course, but hasn’t shown canon feats of him being a leader in combat. Neither did paku or piandao. Jeong jeong did have experience as a general/admiral, but i guess iroh has more rep world wide due to being royal, the fire nation prince (?), and having the nickname “the dragon of the west”
RonnyLamar KylesJr. You’re not getting my point. I am not talking about who has had the most fighting feats within the show. I am talking about who would be the most likely leader during a “group battle” like this. As i mentioned before. Iroh has two canon moments within the show where he was the general/leader of a big combat operation. Having more feats than iroh doesn’t make you a better leader. Katara beats sokka all day in a fight, but during some battles, it was shown that sokka was a capable group leader who could come up with a strategy. The same thing applies here. Iroh has more canon experience on the battle field, not only as a fighter, but also as a leader of an army. That has nothing to do with hype. Speaking of hype. The whole white lotus has a lot of hype. Iroh after all was the one who broke the wall of basin se during sozins comet. If he wasn’t there then the rest of the white lotus might wouldn’t have been able to penetrate through those walls. And thus wouldn’t have been able to liberate basin se.
Let's not forget only Tenzon stood his ground against The Red lotus. Mako took down Ming Hua. We did not see any bender taking down any white lotus member unless dey surrounded for a reason.
"We did not see any bender taking down any white lotus member unless dey surrounded for a reason." The white lotus never fought any tough opponents. Whereas the red lotus did. Tenzin is an incredibly skilled bender and even in this fight is right near the top
@@avatarmufasa3628 yeah I know. But considering the people who took down the red lotus, Mako is not better than uncle iroh but he took down Ming Hua, Bohlin is not better than Bumi but he took down that lava bender. I believe Master Poku is a powerful bender too bro
If Sokka and Zuko in their 70s and Tonraq could beat the Red Lotus, then there's no way that Jeong Jeong, Bumi, Pakku, and Piandao aren't having their way with them (Tenzin and Iroh are equally strong.)
Ian Stephenson Yeah exactly except they were around their late 60s-early 70s since the events of LoK started in 170 AG happened about 15 years before that
@@dr.c6260 The Red Lotus spent 13 years in prison, which means Zuko and Sokka would have been 74 when they took them down. And Pakku is a much stronger waterbender than Tonraq, even though he's much older.
It heavily depends on circumstances and the arena. We don't know any details about how the red lotus got captured and it is still possible that Sokka died there. Zuko also had his dragon probably, because why wouldn't he.
Basically everyone: tactics, strengths, weaknesses, teamwork...
Yakone and Amon: haha bloodbend go brr.
Fully realized Bolin could take either of them from stealth. If he has lava bending he also has the accuracy to shoot a lava pebble straight through their skulls, provided they don't see him.
@@alearnedman anyone Could take Them with Stealth
They Just Need a Really Powerful Suprise Attack
But that's not how Fights Work
Amon can take down anyone who doesn’t have the avatar state which so happens to be that the one person he had to take down had it
alearnedman remember they can sense movement using it
@West Bradley-Taubner BB team wins
Ya'll can we acknowledge that Tenzien recked Zahier and almost successfully took on the entire red lotus team?
@West Bradley-Taubner indeed it was pre flight so a bit different to the match up but I have a feeling that without P'li Tenzien would be able to take them all on even with Zaheer having flight no? Idk it would for sure be worth the watch though! And oh yeah, Iroh especially in his prime would be god-like😎.
exactly! not only the combustion girl intervene, 3 of them he can take down.
"Individually they could take on any bender. Put them together and they could take the whole world."
Alright Zuko...I refer to this commentor up here ^
@@JR1234567gamer I mean, thats clearly to hype them up as a forced to be reckoned. but its not a literal statements since we've seen them together and they did not take over the world. they lost.
Tenzien was a master air bender none of them had experience fighting an air bender at all, are y’all forgetting that?
I'm honestly most curious about how strong the team was that took down the Red Lotus the first time. Sokka and Zuko were in their early 70s. Tonraq and Tenzin were in their 20s-30s. Did either side have backup? Did any members on either side die?
Also, I've gotta go with Piandao on accolades, vs Zaheer. He is 20 years younger than Sokka (the master he was based on was 53 at the time of Piandao's first appearance) when they fought Zaheer. His history includes defeating 100 troops the army sent to arrest him for deserting. Not only did no one ever bother him again, Ozai actually sought him out to train Zuko. That's a lot of respect.
What an alpha
The white lotus were also there when the red lotus tried to kidnap Korra
@@juicyproductions6238 yeah
I am confused with the whole Piandao thing u said going on please explain
How is he 20 years younger than Sokka when he fought Zaheer
This is like the Legendary Elemental Pokemons battling each other
Lol accurate
Duchi accurate... but Pokémon is a singular, just like sheep instead of sheeps:)
Huh copied comment....from the video of origin of all bending zzz
@@ohsnapplemyapple7247, this was just a thought of mine as I watched this video.
Just because a comment may be the same from another comment section, it doesn't mean its copied.
Zaheer (Tornadus), Ming Hua (Milotic), Ghazan (Camerupt), P'Li (Magmortar) vs. Iroh (Entei), Pakku (Kingdra), Bumi (Machamp), Jeong Jeong (Victini), Piandao (Aegislash).
I'd pay everything for Bryke just to make a full detailed Red Lotus backstory
Dark Soul are you the dude that committed “I think bumi has seen sozan’s commet two times” ?, cuz I really liked that comment
@@clckythecomedydude4966 yes I am
@@DarkSoul-jj2rv
You know what maybe that's why he knew that there was an eclipse coming and decided to surrender rather destroying his city trying to defend it.
@@omegadeadpool4987 yes, and even he quoted "I didn't know what or when, but I knew I'd know it whan I knew it!"
@@DarkSoul-jj2rv
We should cut him some slack as he forgot why he jumped out of his coffin during the Eclipse. He only remembered it because the soldiers couldn't bend.
I wish we got to see more non bender vs bender fights. We never actually got to see a master fighter like piando and Zaheer take on any benders without bending
Ah-greed.
How about Equalist fights scenes ?
@@gensischosen251 equalist without their electric sticks losed so many fights against the team avatar. They weren't really non-benders coz they used electric shocks
Blue Spirit?
@@567secret Most battles with the blue spirit were against non benders
P'li on sozans commet: Nuke Mode Activated !!
To the same token, literally bumi could just flick a stone at her forehead as she inhales, and she would self-destruct her whole team
@@GokuInfintysaiyan Bumi was never shown to be that accurate. And for that to happen she has to be distracted by someone else, which won't be the case in a 4v4 fight. Not to mention that she can spam like crazy and shoot six times in seven seconds, and even twice in one second.
@@Spherrum
She also has weaker combustion bending feat wise than combustion man, AND it’s shown to be a hard type of bending to control. The comet could end up hurting her
Also, it doesn’t really matter, Zuko was able to fire-wall defend against combustion man. Iroh AND Jeong Jeong would both be empowered and could easily create a very strong wall that wouldn’t budge at all from P’Li since she’d be the only one gaining the buff meanwhile Iroh (who has the greatest firebending raw power feat we ever see) and Jeong Jeong (known for his fire wall) would both be empowered.
Sozan?
@@GokuInfintysaiyan Ya mean SPARKY SPARKY BOOM MAN?
I feel like you don’t give enough credit to piandow. He may be a non bender however most people skip the fact that he’s not just a sword master but he does have the additional accolade of defeating an entire army
Jeong jeong and piandow have essentially the same backstory in that they are both fire nation military deserters, but where jeong jeong went into hiding, piandow traveled the world to learn from different benders and non benders alike, after that he went home and this is where he really shows his worth, jeong jeong stayed in hiding, piandow went home to the fire nation and when they sent a 100 man army to apprehend him as a deserter, he defeated the whole thing. He’s the only person touted as having solo taken on such massive numbers, I mean the fire nation doesn’t just give up attacking someone with no reason, it had to have been clear that no matter what they threw at him piandow would come out on top short of ozai or azula going to face him head on
I was about to type the same thing
Remember, Piandao is past his prime and Zaheer was still young enough, along with being so power, he could battle against Team Avatar
I was about to type Piando his whole backstory about how he defeated a army of 500 men only with a sword
And the fire nation’s army consists of benders as well as non-benders
@@jamalbest499 it was just 100
@@Kriscuit_Bonkin remember Piandao hasn't passed his prime, he is still young compared to everyone else in the WL, he has black hair
I think what's often forgotten is that combustion bending while extremely powerful is still a form of fire bending and fire bending can be defused by other firebenders. So while pl'i might have supercharged fire bending a fully powered Jeong jeong or iroh could easily fire wall it similar to how zuko did with combustion man with much less of a adverse effect considering zuko waa nowhere near master level when he did this in ATLA. But idk that's just my speculation on the first Bonus Scenario the 2nd obviously goes to red lotus 😂😂
Thats exactly what happened in the analysis though. Antoine left Jeong Jeong to keep Pli busy, but her attack is still long range and he can only block stuff coming at him. Also a fire wall leaves Jeong Jeong exposed to direct attacks, you dont just get to leave that up for free, it requires constant supervision.
Problem with that is it is nothing to her girl right after getting imprisoned in the north pole got attacked by a dragon yet was able to make that dragons fire her own and attack it right after that
P’li was a better combustion bender cus not only does she not have to combustion bend in a straight line she was also extremely skilled at regular firebending and who knows, maybe she could generate lightning
@@dh8538 Lets assume she cant do lightning. Much better if we keep to things we can at least infer from the shows writing
You are forgetting p'li can fire bend.. and she can control the combustion beam and direct it to left or right
Next geek talk:
Who would've won Aang's daydream?
Yesss
I actually wanna see thos
lord Momo his momoness? Or King Appa
The White Lotus took on a Fire Bending Army with Sozin Comet
To be fair, none of those army members did anything impressive
I'm not downplaying the white lotus, but considering the fire nation had more sozins comet firebenders the army hardly did anything
People forget the White Lotus has an army too.
Regardless even if they were fodder they were still all highly supercharged from the comet which stilll says a whole lot about the white lotus taking them out
Phanboi Chau this is from avatar wiki
“When the comet comes close to Earth's atmosphere, Firebenders can draw from it to become as powerful as a hundred suns.”
Doesn’t matter who they were. Pakku, Bumi and Piandao were still taking them out.
There was no fire bending army in Ba Sing Se. There were alot of non bending troops, helpless against benders, and a few dozens of firebenders at best, who had no chances against Iroh and Jeong Jeong - military commanders and masters at bending with decades of experience. Jeong Jeong was flying for crying out loud. And we didn't see Iroh doing much except breaking through the first wall and burning the flag in the end.
I love how the subtitles call them the "Red Lettuce"
I was just watching korra and I’m at the red lotus part and this popped up😂
Same here 😂
Oh my goodness- just about to comment the same thing. Just finished season 3 episode 12
Freaky right!
Indigo Blue I think I was on 11😂
TENZIN DIES!!!
Jk he doesn't 👍🏼
Could the Red Lotus Defeat the White Lotus?
*Sokka: As a matter of fact they cannot*
Because unalaq betrayed them besides we don't know what really happened in that battle
West Bradley-Taubner That’s reasonable, Tenzin could have 1v3 the red lotus and Iroh being legendary, definitely top 3 benders of his element that we know of that are not avatars, should mean that he can at least defeat Zaheer (non bending and pre flight) and depending on the situation any one of the other three (likely Ghazan or pre unavaatu Unalaq) take your pick.
@Darth Geeky Virgin Ew no, stop the atla wank
@@dr.c6260 the thing is they were not trying to kill him at all ming wasnt in her best elements which is any area with lots of water and Ghazan didnt even attempt to use lava bending at all
@Darth Geeky Virgin How is saying that Iroh can't solo the Lotus a wank? Care to explain? Ya know, aside from you liking the White Lotus more?
Man, you are so THOROUGH with your analysis and your editing! Almost making it seem like they’re in an actual brawl is just top notch. Keep up the great work, we’re all loving the content!!
Jiang Jiang fire bending is legendary and massive but you forget cuz hes only on like 2 episodes lol .no one summons fire as big as him
Damn this was hard to analyse. Probably the best possible interpretation on youtube for this matchup, and lets be real this is each team fighting each other with no obvious tactical blunders on either side (which is actually something that would probably happen).
Seriously either side could totally take a win in either of the 2 scenarios, and you did an amazing job keeping this mess coherent. You deserve those views
Nice name lol
@@KaySwitchYT Thx :)
I’d say that the red lotus would win when the white lotus are old men like in the show
But in their prime I’d give it to the white lotus
Age doesn't matter. We saw Bumi and Aang.
@@qinlee1182 It does. Bumi used a special technique to make his life longer, and make it so his age doesn't affect his body and combat abilities. Iroh and Jeong Jeong on the other hand are old. They still can fight and they are still very powerful, but they just don't have necessary agility and speed to fight Ming Hua, or to keep themselves away from lava, or to dodge P'li's explosions.
I wonder what Aang's reaction would have been to Zaheer in Book 3.
"Huh.... Guess it's not a myth" then beat up Zaheer using airbending.
AngelsRage Unleashed yeah we saw tenzin beat up zaheer untill the rest of the red lotus came along, so I’d reckon Aang would completely destroy him with air bending alone.
@@dcchaos6409 exactly bro.
GenericName 33 to be fair Zaheer only had airbending for a few weeks, I reckon he would be one of the strongest airbenders if he became a master, maybe not Aang level or airbending but definitely up there.
@@tanish6298 yeah he would. But the problem is he didn't 😅I wish he did he's my fav
I agree with a lot of this actually, P'li would definitely be the make or break member of the fight, plus she has curved aim unlike Combustion Man. Maybe next could be Korra and her team avatar (post Bolin lavabending) vs Aang and his team avatar (post Zuko joining). Or would that be redundant since you've already done 1 vs 1 scenarios for some of them? Idk I think it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the fight would go with the team dynamics
It would be very interesting as a matter of fact, but if Antoine deicdes to give korras team any kind of victory then several hardcore atla fans might get pissed off and force the video down like azula vs kuvira or destroy the comments section like toph vs kuvira
Firebenders can block combustion
Korra vs Aang
Mako vs Zuko
Bolin vs Toph
Asami vs Sokka
Naga vs Appa
Pabu vs Momo
@@qinlee1182 way too unbalanced, the moment you added momo in there, Guaranteed victory for aang😂
@@qinlee1182 happy birthday
I’ve always wanted to see this from someone as smart as you. Also a couple days ago you reminded me about Degrassi and now I’ve been binging it so thanks for that.
All of TH-cam for free!
@@controlman7490 I’ve been on and off watching it. Still not done tbh. I’m currently in season 8 and have only seen a couple characters I maybe recognize. I’m not entirely sure tbh
another reason people overrate the white lotus is because the one time we saw them fight together was during sozen's comet and 2 of them are firebenders
Pakku, Bumi and Piandao were all kicking ass idk whats so overrated about that. Iroh and Jeong Jeong are already strong as it is the comet just shows how superior they are to just about anyone.
Yes
@@alonso7124 they fought fodder they are overrated
@@alonso7124 Iroh and Jeong Jeong don't have good feats against powerful benders
I feel extremely underrated! I literally took out 100 soldiers sent to get me, but yet loose every scenario? :(
Jeong jeong and Zaheer being able to flight would be interesting
I thought that was only during Sozin’s comet.
Khari Jackson it was
Azula could fly without the comet so i think jeong jeong can do it as well, he just probably didnt think it was effective
Fernando Ribas Paimde Almeida no she couldn’t. She could briefly propel herself in a direction and slow her decent. The only people to ever truly fly were either Zaheer or an avatar in avatar state.
Fire isn’t sustainable enough for a bender to fly unassisted, except for in rare cases, like Sozin’s Comet, or in cases of the Avatar State augmented ones power
@@khariennui search for azula fight scenes ultimate tribute and put it on 5:07, she was clearly flying my guy
I fully agree with this assessment. A lot of people have biases for the White Lotus for winning their fights. But they did receive the protagonists treatment.
I think the next Avatar novel should be about the red lotus. It could be a 3 book series starting with zaheer joining the red lotus and forming his team. It could go into detail about all of their origins and who they are. Book 2 could go into missions they went on and go more in depth on the organizations goal. We could see more of Unalaq and further understand him as a villian. The final book would be about finding korra and enacting their plan of kidnapping her and it could end in them failing. The epilogue could end with zaheer in present day plotting his escape from prison ( just a personal headcanon.)
This is good... although it wouldn’t be considered “avatar” no more
@@jjxd5398 Yeah it would just take place in the universe
And we could have another novel basically a backstop on all avatars
itz nalon I agree!
If the writer of the kyoshi novels does it I'm here for it 100%
Could Jeong Jeong set a red lotus member on fire from a distance with his huge fire wall?🤔
I guess he could as long as his opponent doesn't get out of the way😂
Pli was unscathed from a dragons fireblast, so I highly doubt that would work
Phanboi Chau you’re right, it pobably won’t work against Pli as Zhao did since she’s a fire bender but it would be a difficult move for everyone else to counter. I’m not sure if they’d be able to anticipate that move. Even if they do, I’m not sure sure how they’d escape that much fire
@@kwp5022 There are many times when I thought "why doesn't Toph/Bolin just trap their opponents with earth like Aang did with Ozai?" I guess they could, but it would make the show less interesting. I think it's kinda the same for this.
Unai Agueda that’s true. he did chase fire nation tanks away during sozin’s comet with those tall fire walls so maybe he could do the same to Ming hua or Ghazan
I wish there were more fight scenes with the White Lotus personally. There's not much there for the masters in that team in comparison to the Red Lotus.
That’s bc they are the only ones to live to tell the stories. All their enemies are dead
Yeah
You should do how you think each member was initially caught
That's a can of worms. You seriously want to reopen the debate of if/ought Sokka had been killed by the Red Lotus?
@@alearnedman What of it if he was?
@@Spherrum Because it's a fairly well-known contentious subject in the fan-community with relatively little established evidence. Very much like, "Did Suki die young" Short answer: No, and there's no other interesting details. Long answer: Probably not, but there's compelling fan theorizing for it to be yes that makes for a very interesting non-canon perspective on the course of the universe's history.
I suppose you can make an argument for that it's an interesting enough subject that warrants the traffic it might receive if Antoine did a video of it, but he really strikes me as the type of person to not wade into such hypothetical territory outside of his regular theoretical Vs. Matchups.
@@alearnedman Firstly, there is no information about what happened to Suki, so the answer to that question cannot be anything but "i don't know". And " No, probably no" etc. is just assumptions. Secondly, he did his share of theorising videos, about this topic too. That they couldn't have children, for example. Thirdly, my original question was "What of it if Sokka did die there?"
@@Spherrum "Firstly, there is no information about what happened to Suki"
...... Do you not understand that that's literally exactly one of the points I was trying to get accross? And really, the main thrust of my initial statement is that the main thing anyone would actually care about is whether or not/if Sokka had died defending Korra from the Red Lotus attack on her. Disregarding that question, and expanding from that incident, the only way you could go is either supposing how all the Red Lotus got caught in on instance, or hyper-theorizing about how they got separated and the individual instances of them being defeated and captured, all of which have such an important insane amount of variables, that they basically enter into fanfiction territory rather than Who would win? Battles. Just saying, that doesn't quite seem like the sort of topic Antoine usually goes in for.
Ok.
What I love so much about this video is how IN DEPTH it is. I love the different scenarios, because it shows what would happen at different points of these guy's lives. ESPECIALLY with Zaheer having Airbending in his utility of moves.
Great job on this! I really enjoyed it! Of course the 2nd scenario was my favorite, but it was cool to hear the insight of it all
I love these videos, keep up the good work Antoine😁
More to come!
Antoine Bandele I’m looking forward to it, thanks for the reply👍
Brother... I see your ability as a tactician shining right now! I salute you.
Last time I was this early, all my teachers were absent except my last period
Remember in TLA how Zuko was able to stonewall a point blank strike from Combustion Man with his own firebending? The amount of raw power we see from both Iroh and Jeong Jeong without a power up makes me think they're going to do a little more than just deadlock her in a head-to-head assault. It'd be a close match, certainly, but I do think either one of them could bring her down.
What raw power feats from JJ and Iroh show that they can block P'li's attacks? And Zuko could barely block CM's blast and it was the weakest blast by far
@@dominic7038 well, in the episode you meet Jeong-Jeong, he Firebends a gigantic wall of flames above a RIVER. This is him past his prime and to block P'Li, he could easily make a smaller and more manageable wall to block her whilst retaining more energy (if Zuko, a not yet master-level bender at the time, fought Combustion Man and managed to block/stall him, a presumably fully-trained Bender, I cannot see why Jeong-Jeong can't stall P'Li). He is a capable master with wisdom and raw power.
(As for your comment about a weak blast, maybe it wasn't the strongest, but Zuko did well to block it. It was definitely not the weakest blast, CM's weakest blast would be in the episode where Toph and Katara are captured; specifically when he nearly blows himself up. He blew Zuko off the cliff, so as I said, weaker, definitely, but CM wasn't exactly holding back either. Zuko had passed his use, he had no reason to keep his employer-turned-enemy alive.)
Iroh, on the other hand, despite being known as "The Dragon of the West", took on Azula and the Dai Li with one cup of tea. The Dai Li would undoubtedly know of Iroh due to their archives and Azula and they still made the mistake of underestimating him. During "Siege of the North Part 2" he also took on an enraged Zhao and his guards in the freezing cold to boot and didn't break a sweat - and, further to boot, he wasn't in his prime. Going back to Azula, he contended with her in the Book 2 Finale and, on his terms, chose to surrender.
To sum up: JJ can Firebend a gigantic wall of flames across a sizable river past his prime; Iroh can take on a Firebending prodigy plus her recently acquired Dai Li (with prep time) whilst being surrounded, taken by initial surprise and armed with no immediate power source other than tea. Its unfair to JJ because you don't see much of him till virtually the very end of ATLA when his power is boosted by Sozin's Comet. If this were either JJ or Iroh alone taking on P'Li, this would a different conclusion. However, you have two very powerful masters fighting together. It might be a slight struggle, but without help, P'Li would be overwhelmed IMHO.
@@mr_earwig6477 idk about that though. That giant fire wall was big but even Zhao could penetrate it. And while Iroh held back the Dai Li and Azula, he certainly could not defeat them. He eventually had to flee. P’li on the other hand nearly mopped the floor with a bunch of metal clan warriors and two earthbending masters
It’s a lot of speculation. Ok maybe Zuko didn’t block his weakest blast but that blast was still far from CM’s strongest and far from P’li’s strongest combustion explosions as well
@@dominic7038 it is a lot of speculation for sure. But between Iroh and Jeong-Jeong I doubt P'Li would win. She's a powerful, talented bender vs two powerful strategists who's only real weaknesses might be their ages. P'Li would, I think, eventually underestimate one/both of them. She'd put up a good fight though.
@@mr_earwig6477 I doubt P'li will underestimate any of them. P'li is smarter than that. And just because both of them are strategist doesn't mean that both can take her in a 1v1. She has a near perfect track record against dragons and pretty much has a response to everything both Iroh and Jeong Jeong can do.
Red Lotus: In white laser beam
White Lotus : In red laser beam
Iroh vs Zahher?
I think Iroh
TheYEETGang Ohyeahyeah good fight
Both at there prime
When Iroh was a conqueror (Dragon Of The West)
And Zaheer in Korra
I think Iroh but I’d love to see that fight
Iroh during the Day of Black Sun vs Zaheer without bending. I'd say Zaheer, as he'd have ancient Airbender techniques unknown to the world. Similar to how Aang had early advantages against opponents as they had limited or nonexistent knowledge of fighting Airbending at all.
@@kevinmalone584 Technically Iroh became the Dragon of the West after he became enlightened which is after he left the battlefield.
That would be an awesome fight
Ah yes its easy to forget how skilled unalaq is due to my utter distain for his *existence* but he plays a bunch of interesting factors I never considered! Ming hua vs pakku is the most hype of the fights for me! But Its interesting to see that bumi is the white lotus leader and not iroh and inspired thought process for you!
They could honestly both be, Bumi being the mad genius he is and iroh formerly being a general
Yea no one like unalaq but u have to respect his bending, he was casually every other water bender and wasn't even worried about korra water bending. He is one the most dangerous water benders ever .he's literally just miss blood bending...
I think he could beat pakku and jiong jiong. Because he quick and sneaky .
@RonnyLamar KylesJr. He fought his brother long before he fused with Vaatu.
@RonnyLamar KylesJr. What a mess of a comment. Try some punctuation, i have no idea what you were trying to say.
@RonnyLamar KylesJr. You don't have to, but i can't understand you otherwise. Don't be such a child and put some effort into expressing your thoughts. Or are you too afraid that you have no chances in an argument if your opponent can understand you?
It’s weird how many people forget unalaq was a member of the red lotus
Also this is just an idea but could you do all variations of Aangs team avatar all vs all variations of red lotus
I think that just isn't fair what so ever we see zaheer can't beat masters
Katara was the best water bender in atla and she would use more ice than water
Zuko really zuko was taught by the ogs and iroh
Toph and ghazan might and thats a big might lose because earth could lose to lava
P`li is the biggest factor she goes they win
itz nalon true just a thought happy you agree zuko is powerful
@@Nalon.1242 Katara could just bloodbend zaheer and thats that
@@franfrankie7 she's against it were going of of cannon
Damn my comment is confusing to read
Im saying I think toph would struggle bc lava is just gonna melt i can only see seismic sense coming in clutch
Sokka would beat p'li like sparky sparky boom man
Zuko could take all if you ask me
Katara would beat ming hua soly because her unique styles
Aang would literally was zaheer im talking no avatar state clap zaheer
Y'all are gettin it all wrong... Iroh would talk them all down and they would zip a cuppa tea together lol
Iroh and Zaheer would sit down to a game of paicho talking about philosophy
Great video! Very thorough analysis and it’s always nice to see a creator addressing their biases beforehand.
Much appreciated!
I love this video, any vs debate that actually takes the time to discuss the tactics both teams would employ is something that should be admired, it's so much more interesting than the standard character x beats d so x helps y style of debate that some people do.
what really sells it for me is how thorough you are with every character.
definitely going into my playlist of great vs scenarios.
My version of the second scenario.
Bumi vs Zaheer
Iroh vs Pi Li
Jeong Jeong vs Ghazan
Pakku + Piando vs Ming Hau
Bumi fights Zaheer due to Bumi's likely experience against airbending.
Zaheer isn't able to trip up Bumi the way he would other opponents.
Iroh would keep Pi Li busy while inching closer. Jeong Jeong would be on the defensive against Ghazan.
Pakku would be fighting even with Ming Hau with Piando taking swipes at her. Kinda like the fight in the Boiling Rock with Zuko + Sokka vs Azula. Iroh would eventually get close enough to Pi Li to take her out. Pi Li doesn't seem very good at normal firebending and her Combustion bending would be worthless up close. Iroh would go help Jeong Jeong. Ghazan is used to overwhelming his opponents but Iroh would be able to continue an offensive towards him especially with Jeong Jeong being a very defensive firebender. Ultimately ghazan is defeated. Ming Hau has managed to take out Piando and has Pakku against the ropes. Jeong Jeong would go help Pakku while Iroh goes to help Bumi. Jeong Jeong takes a shot at Ming Hau getting her to redirect focus to him. Ming Hau strikes at Jeong Jeong but he creates a fire wall to block it. (Yes it can survive water. In the Deserter he makes a fire wall on top of the river.)
Jeong Jeong sends the firewall forward. Ming Hau gets out of the way but is met with more fire. Pakku makes a few small strikes but is too hurt to do much. He manages to slip up her movement and Jeong Jeong finishes her off. Jeong Jeong goes to fight Zaheer while Pakku rests.
Zaheer is having a lot of trouble with Bumi and Iroh. Iroh isn't as experienced as Bumi and gets tripped up by Zaheer (same way Aang does nearly every opponent in ATLA except Bumi. I'm not saying Zaheer is a better fighter than Iroh I'm saying Zaheer's air bending seems unnatural to pretty much anyone.) but Bumi is able to stop Zaheer from landing a good blow (pun intended). Jeong Jeong joins the fight and helps Bumi distract Zaheer. Iroh hits Zaheer with a surprise lightning strike (he's too distracted to get away from it.)
@RonnyThaDonKyles did you read the scenario or just the match-ups? Iroh is a very good strategist and would be able to get in close. In a fight at close range, Pi'Li is helpless (she's not good at regular firebending, and a combustion attack wouldn't be a viable option).
@@vision-dz6cmpli demolish iroh
Bumi has no experience fighting air benders he would be a young kid and never stated he fought air benders before.
Iroh or jeong Jeong can’t keep Pli busy.
@@vision-dz6cmIroh doesn’t have the mobility or speed or acrobatics to get in close to Pli.
Yeah everyone in the red lotus are strategic as well.
@RjZyon I didn't say he'd be rushing up to her as if he were someone like Ty Lee. I said "inching closer" as in moving from one piece of cover to the next while she's firing her combustion blasts.
Edit- and for Bumi, so what if he had been a kid? Aang had clearly experienced fighting/sparing with firebenders before he was frozen, noted ny his comment to Sokka "You should try it sometime" when talking about fighting firebenders with fun. Furthermore, Bumi is the only character Aang fights who doesn't get tripped up by Air, showing it's not an alien concept to him like it is everyone else. He also knows that it's "typical Airbender strategy" to "avoid and evade" so he clearly knows how they fight and has experienced it.
The Red Lotus are more talented then The White Lotus. They are all special talents.
How about Team Aang vs Team Korra? Could be really interesting.
@West Bradley-Taubner You can also add Tenzin as part of Korra's team.
GAang wins no difficulty
@Wes Bradley-Taubner Lin wasn't a mentor. And half of Aang's gang are his teachers, so i don't see a problem.
@Wes Bradley-Taubner Aang doesn't have many chances against Korra. Zuko doesn't have a definitive edge on Mako. Toph has nothing on lavabending. Suki doesn't have a chance against Asami with the shocking glove, regardless of Sokka's help. I can give you Appa and Momo. But there is still Katara and the fight is unfair. Add to Korra's team any character from Lin, Su, Tenzin, Tonraq, Eska or Desna, Kai, Opal, Kya, Kuvira while she was in Su's guard, Wei or Wing (Su's twin sons), General Iroh (junior), and Aang's team will lose in 8/10 scenarios.
@@SpherrumFinally someone with facts
This is basically a "How do we keep P'li out of it" for the White Lotus
I love this!! Please never stop doing this!
Can you do the twin vs: Eska and Desna Vs the Beifong Twins
It’s in my notes. Not sure when I’ll actually do it. The general geek talks and theory videos are so much easier to produce with higher R0I. I’m still trying to figure out how to scale back on VS so they don’t take so long to produce.
@@AntoineBandele Ok sounds good 👍
Why not Eska VS Desna😂
I disagree that Ming hua would be at a disadvantage against Iroh. his lightning bending is much MUCH slower that Makos, and giving how quick she is even trying it would open him up to one of her attacks. People don't seem to realise but Mako was a prodegy in lightning bending, he's the only person we seen who was able to do it instantly, everyone else trying it had a huge startup on it, even Azula who was quickish still had a startup.
Azula used lightning with no startup in comics tho.
And to be honest, Ming Hua is only relevant when she has LOTS of water, which is ideal for a lightning bender.
WarZealot1 Nah. Only for ones like Mako who can shoot lightning with minimal wind-up. Iroh is slow, and Ming Hua can take him down before he finishes winding up.
I would love to see the fight between
bumi and Gazan
Iroh and zaheer
th-cam.com/video/Ja7f62yCTRU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=AntoineBandele
He alredy did Bumi vs Ghazan
I think he means animated
After this video, I kinda wanna see team avatar vs the white lotus. Both atla and korra’s group. Obviously the masters taught many of the characters, Katara was potentially past paku at the end of atla, toph stale mates with bumi we know, and team avatar has.. the avatar... I think Zuko and sokka would be weak points but throw in suki to maybe even the odds. Love the vid!
GREAT EDITING WITH THE CLIPS. Appreciate the work man. When talking about, let’s say Ming Wa controlling the field, you showed clips of her doing that. Great great work man
I think the idea of a 1v1 scenario kind of inherently stacks things against the red lotus, who are clearly pretty impenetrable when fighting together. Ghazan and P'Li just have too much coverage and range, I don't think the white lotus has an answer. Ghazan could make a magma field around them to prevent anyone from approaching. The only way P'Li gets taken out is with metal bending or a very long range sneak attack, which white lotus doesn't have. Even in the last scenario without P'Li, that would definitely alter zaheer's tactics and he could be everywhere at once basically. The only way red lotus members lose is in 1v1's or by severely outnumbering them, so I think you ignored their inherent strengths. In a coordinated fight, red lotus wins every scenario for me.
This was great, I do think that the white lotus is way too overrated in the sense that they are given legendary standards.
And only fought fodder😂
Iroh Vs Zaheer
Bumi Vs Ghazan
Jeong Jeong Vs P'Li
Pakku Vs Unalaq
Piandao Vs Ming Hua
Man pisndao would go down so fast.
Zaheer May have been using chi blocking to be on equal footing with the benders
basically atla's version of bloods and crips
I like to believe that Iroh would tea them all to death
Bro I feel like this is what the avatar writers would decide
0:23 ah yes the fameous bloodbender Among
LOL aman lol but still among us
@@coolkingwistune1323 Its amon
I think its overlooked that P'Li was willing to straight up kill kai even though it was obvious he was like 12.
We forget that The Legend of Korra enhanced and built upon previous bending and fighing tactics, which may, more likely than not, hold greater weight against the old benders and their skills.
@RonnyLamar KylesJr. Thank you for your input. I was talking in general for certain aspects, however, like how metal bending was worked on and made quite efficient for use in the police force; P'li's combustion is more creative and appears in many ways to be of a higher level than combustion man's; and like how what's-her-face's use of water to replace her arms was certainly a profound kind of waterbending not before seen in ATLA. I never said that the Red Lotus was made of individuals with raw power, and never indicated that the original heroes wouldn't have demolished them. It was their skills, as you said, that I was acknowledging.
However, it appears that you would argue that the heroes in ATLA would "demolish heroes in Tlok", simply due to "raw power". None of this was mentioned in my previous comment; I meant only that the bending was repurposed or gained newer uses and aspects through development.
I would say that the experience of battle of the older ATLA folks-Sokka and Zuko specifically in your example-will certainly come into play in such a fight as the one you mentioned; not simply their "raw power". The tactics and cunning with which one engages their opponent will be a significant factor in deciding the outcome of a battle; whether it is between older and newer generations, or a generation against itself. I've seen plenty of battles in ATLA to know that many of them were won with creative and skillful fighting rather than brute force. I never bothered watching past a few episodes of TLOK, even after trying a couple of times, as it never piqued my interest; but perhaps I should have if only to make a better, more educated point when making general statements rather than taking from what little I've seen of it through clips and scenes on TH-cam to... Make general statements.
As it is not the point I was trying to make, I refute your argument. Both power and skill come into play when determining the outcome of a fight. I appreciate the straightforwardness of the argument you made; however, sometimes skills do win over demolishing, raw power, even in the world of discourse and debate.
@missseaweed2462 raw power and bending scale vs speed and precision and specialized benders
What about Red Lotus vs the cabbage merchant? 🤔🤔🤔
Red Lotus and White Lotus vs Cabbage Guy
cabbage man easily wins
Stop targeting the cabbage
Their heads will be collected as reparation for every cabbage destroyed.
What’s more powerful? Lava bending: Like
Combustion bending: comment.
The second scenario seems unlikely to me with the matchup. They lost one bender but another combatant gained bending. Being outnumbered means a lot. It enhances Zaheer's evasiveness to survive but doesn't add much in offense. Any other bender could keep him engaged while Piandao focuses on a less mobile opponent like Gazan or P'Li. I do think Zaheer would be easily able to reposition himself away from Piandao but if he couldn't give out orders in a 1v1 he definitely can't in a 2v1.
Here is also where strategy comes in play. We see the Red Lotus always depending on Zaheer for guidance but the White Lotus we see act independent. Iroh is an experienced General, Bumi a leader and mad genius, through Piandao's lessons we can see how he is wise and strategic, Jeong Jeong shows himself to control the flow of battle and we see Pakku and Piandao co-ordinate together in the attack on Ba Sing Se.
The Red Lotus is going to base their defense around P'Li again while Zaheer either stays there and loses his advantage or runs around the battlefield being an evasive neusance but not able to take anyone down. He'd be at higher risk being away from his team on the battlefield as well as leaving his team weakened.
On the other hand The White Lotus is adaptable, able to change up their tactics individually as they see fit and would likely overwhelm the Red Lotus' defenses.
We saw how Zaheer in a 1vs1 lost to Tenzin because he was no master bender yet. In a match up against a master he does not measure up and instead survives till his team can save him. With his team already being outnumbered and having to defend P'li for any level of battlefield control Zaheer would likely remain as one of the last combatants while one by one his team goes down.
And then unlocks flight and flies off... 😅
My thoughts on how this match-up would fare. Piandao and Zaheer were equals till endfight while Pakku and Unulaq were equals till endfight too. Losing one but having the other gain bending is a net loss and being outnumbered is a big factor. Cool breakdown though, though my thoughts differ they're very close and I respect the amount of detail you went into!
What kind of mic are you using? Your audio sounds great.
$12 lavalier from Amazon. Lol. I just do super well with editing it. I think the one made by pop voice.
Compressor. Expander with low threshold. And limited cap at -3db.
@@AntoineBandele thanks I really want my audio to be just as clear.
This was a great video Antione 😀😊
Powerful Firebenders like Jong Jong and Iroh can fly, they could give Zaheer a run for his money.
All the others have unique skills, but I think the ATLA White Lotus could match them through sheer power.
Think about it, the Red Lotus were after all defeated and imprisoned by the White Lotus and others before LoK, even though that White Lotus was likely inferior to the old masters. And if Team Avatar, a couple Beifongs, and few random metal clan guards could send them retreating from Zao Fu, think the old White Lotus would have an especially good chance.
Iroh has never shown the ability of flight or fire jets.
@@AntoineBandele and cheng cheng only in Zozins Comet
@@AntoineBandele Iroh is comparable to Ozai so it only made sense for him to do the same thing.
WL overrated and only fought fodder
@@zenithofall1946 not at all.
We go off Feats.
The issue in this match up for the WL is all but one of their members are only top tier for their time (Bumi) and not benders that would stand comfortably with the best benders of history. RL appears to have at least two that could solely due to their unique bending styles in Gazan and P’Li and then Zaheer after learning flight. That’s a stacked team.
P’Li is the biggest piece on this board. If the WL can’t deal with her, they lose every time. Thus making Bumi the 2nd biggest piece on the board and is the only one on the WL that could reliably take down P’Li due to his overwhelming power and experienced cunning tactics. But due to Gazan’s unique bending that counters normal earth bending, the RL has the perfect stall against Bumi. And while I do feel Jeong Jeong can slow P’Li down some, it’d be nothing to the extent Gazan can against Bumi.
Thus it becomes a battle of which side can free up the first fighter to assist either Bumi so he can defeat P’Li or assist P’Li/Gazan to defeat Bumi.
So Iroh wasn’t top 2 or even top 1 fire bender?
And Jon Jon could definitely defend against P’Li
@@marclyrichard9756 Bending is relatively short ranged compared to combustion bending. One of the advantages to Pli is she can accuratly fire from much further than any bender of the battlefield, and ti doesnt even need to be precise, just within a couple of metres.
Iroh is def a firebender that can contend with Pli, but we have to consder lots of factors like him not being able to shield all his allies. That there isnt easy as Plis combustion bending doesnt take much charge time to activate.
That being said, Bumi can certainly shield himself, he just puts lots of rock in the way. But theres a reason Antoine says that Piandou is the weak link and that Pli is the top player throughout this vid.
Ya forgot Jon jon could actually control his fire flight, I feel like that would help along the way somewhere by making a harder target to hit. Maybe rain down some carpet bombing firebending style
Avatar Mufasa ok but while P’Li is combustion bending she really can’t move so Iroh can honestly beat her fairly easy think about it like this while she’s just blasting stuff Iroh can charge up the lightning and that’s Instant K.O. She’s really can die just like combustion man she just has a lil bettter aim
I would definitely agree for the white lotus the masters would win with no comet or hermano convergence defeat all 5 red Lotus members definitely So far two points for the white lotus two points for the red lotus it’s a tie
I've held out watching this for a year. Now that I've seen this, I found a little oversight that you did on scenario 2, in it you did Firebender vs Firabender, Firebender vs Waterbender, Earthbender vs Earthbender, a Airbender vs Nonbender and Waterbender. What you have done that's an oversight was the line up. The OG White Lotus was a group of masters that worked in sync with each other, so the 2 v 1 could've easily been Iroh or king Bumi instead of master Paku and it could've changed the end result by either prolonging the loss or the White Lotus obtaining victory; giving them a clean sweep between the 3 scenarios.
With scenerio 2 mid fight. Cant paku just take the water back from Mingwa?
Unpopular question:
How did Jeongjeong make fire from the ground and not from his palm,fist or feet?...please answer me...
Yea i always thought that he could lava bend too .i guess it's his personal preference
Thank you! I’ve been wondering this
Jeong Jeong is supposed to be a firebending genius.
i would think that iroh would be the leader of the white lotus because he is a grand lotus
edit : also bumi is insanely op, he took back his whole city
WL overrated.Iroh is reputation and hype and past accolades as a general not bender and no impressive feats besides Sozin comet.
Jeong Jeong has not shown any offensive attacks only defense.
The Red Lotus underrated
Awesome Video Antoine Mate Keep Up The Awesome Hard Work
what if combustion bending doesn’t work as well during sozins comet because combustion bending probably requires a certain amount of precision and with the extra boost it is hard to contain and it just explodes in mid air
I havent watched yet. But i am cheerin for red lotus but i guess you will have good points. Thx for at least trying to be not one sided.
After watchin just a little, it seems ypu are underestimating rl
One last note, cant flying zaheer get some distance and than take the white lotuss oxygen
@@tendyboiz1046 Things to note here
-For scenario 3, Its generally implied that range is something limiting Zaheer and hes only ever applied the technique against helpless opponents ie The earth queen and also Korra after shes basically completely paralysed. He has never employed this in a fight. Had this been a 3 hrs video, Antoine probably wouldve explained this point. But just working out who fights who and the rough beats to a fight was hard enough work.
Also, Iroh has lightning, which would act as a super long range weapon. And Zaheers removal of air doesnt seem to be based on its 2 attempts by Zaheer (both within 20-30ft)
Which points do you think he underestimates the red lotus?
@@avatarmufasa3628 more the fact that he had piando surviving as long as he did by forcing him to team up and not just letting him also 1v1 to male it a good fight in the first round
@@tendyboiz1046 One, surely thats underestimating the White lotus not the red? As Piandao is part of the white lotus.
And the reason for that. As of right now its impossible for people to imagine him keeping up with full on bending masters, the show hasnt allowed us to see that opportunity as of yet.
Everyone else at least seems to have an answer on some level to Pli. But Piandao has nothing
I just disagree in the second scenario that Zaheer would be able to keep going to the late fight against Iroh. I mean, Tenzin would have wiped Zaheer if not intervened, and I rate Iroh at least equally to Tenzin, if not above. Great video btw, for real, I love how these are thought out.
Iroh doesn’t have the agility or mobility necessary unlike Tenzin. And fighting an old fat fire bender is different than fighting an air bender.
@eduardofreitas8336
Didn't they show in the avatar Roku volcano scene that advanced firebenders can bend the heat out of lava to resolidify it? If I'm remembering right, that gives Jeong Jeong and Iroh a pretty good shot against Ghazan.
We don't speculate
Love the video 😁 keep up the good work 😆
You could be a fight choreographer if you tried. This is so good.
Iroh can instantly conjure lightning as we’ve seen in the show, so I’m sure that it wouldn’t take that much.
Edit: and wouldn’t Paku also be able to get water from Ming Hua?
More the other way round. The closest we have seen with a fight from Ming Hua against a traditional waterbender is when Ming Hua fights Kya. And the fight is pretty one sided with the only time Kya gets a solid hit doesnt really do anything to disable Ming Hua.
As for Iroh, to hit a target as quick as Ming Hua with lightning and Iroh not being as quick as Ozai or Azula high (just be raw charge up time Iroh is slower here), so its harder to say he will get a quick win against Ming Hua. Besides, Antoine does give Iroh the win here, it just isnt a quick one
When has Iroh quickly conjured lightning ? Most of his lightning has been pretty slow. Can you link a video and timestamp ?
@@avatarmufasa3628 Kya isn't even a fighter, Paku is a grandmaster and he show it when he kick Katara ass.
Avatar Mufasa i dont know about that. Do you remember iroh attacking zhao’s soldier at the north pole? Or when he attacked azula’s soldiers during episode 1 of book 2? He didn’t really use lightning then, but he was still quick as hell. I doubt that he would be much slower than ozai and/or azula. I even see him dominating against ming hua and make her evade the fight as much as possible.
Marvel Loux I wouldn’t say simply being quick in general = quick lightning generation. I’m still waiting for a timestamp so I can’t confirm , but most of Iroh’s lightning was still pretty slow, too slow to catch someone like Ming Hua easily.
I also highly doubt he would be “dominating” against Ming Hua. Not only have we seen here do a waterspout with limited water , we saw Korra and Unalaq do one while fighting in the same location (it showed that they had massive amounts of water) so she’d definitely have way more amounts of pressure considering the water available to her. In no way will Iroh present any sort of pressure to a mobile water bender like her, especially when being evasive is already part of her game plan.
Im not entirely sure who would win, but I personally don't think the White Lotus is overrated, maybe fanboys might overestimate them, but at least here there are pretty good reasons:
Pakku was the top master in the Northern Water Tribe
Piandao was the greatest swordsman of the era and maybe of all time (don't quote me on the second half 😅)
Jeong Jeong was a respected Admiral of the Fire Navy, who knew so much about fire bending that even though Zhao didn't properly absorb his lessons, he was still able to use them to become feared amongst the Fire Nation and even an Admiral.
Bumi was arguably the greatest Earthbender of the Era and easily within the top 5 greatest earthbenders of all time.
General Iroh was a living legend and the quoted "pride of the Fire Nation" and formerly the top general within it's ranks.
With titles and accolades such as these it's hard not to assume they would win most confrontations with anyone that's not the best of the best.
The problem here is that the members of the White Lotus are old. Yes, they are legendary for a reason, and yes, in terms of skills, experience and raw power most of them are superior to most of the Red Lotus members. But except for Bumi and Pakku they just don't have necessary agility and speed to stay safe from lava that can appear under their feet at any moment, or from P'li's explosions (and she can spam her beams like crazy), or Ming Hua's crazy fast, chaotic, unpredictable, unorthodox and very aggressive style and tactics. Another very important thing to consider is the fact that the Red Lotus members are not only very lethat each on their own, but they are also very well coordinated, organized and experienced in fighting specifically as a team, which is something you just can't say about the White Lotus members who didn't fight together side by side that much. Also, not to downplay Piandao, but i just can't see him doing a thing against anyone of the Red Lotus, even Zaheer, who according to Zuko was able to take down any bender even before becoming a bender himself.
@Dre jr Kya wasn't even close to beating Zaheer or Ming Hua, and these four guys made a mess that sent the largest country in the avatar world into chaos for years, so i think you downplay them a bit too much. Mako only managed to survive due to instant lightning, and they ganged on Ghazan who was giving Bolin alot of trouble. Suyin didn't defeat P'li in a fight, she sneak attacked after P'li was holding the entire metal clan with Lin and Su at bay for quite some time.
@Rj-Lamar It does count. Kya got trashed by zaheer. Mako got lucky against Ming hua. Ghazan basically did a kamikaze attack
@Rj-Lamar ghazan wasn’t overwhelmed by anything. And suyin got a sneak attack in. She’d never be able to win one on one. Stop underestimating red lotus
@Rj-Lamar like did you not watch the video
As much as Iroh is a great bender, he’s not quick and fast enough to keep up with Ming hua
I think it's reasonable to speculate that Zaheer could chi block, that skill was initially known by Ty Lee who would be most associated with air and that could give him an edge. He never decided to use it later on because he never had to because of distance
I think your underestimating piandao. Just cause he’s not a bender does not make him a weak opponent, his skill has taken down dozens of fire Benders and earth Benders. He killed 100 fire Benders by himself in his late 50’s.
I feel like in a majority of these scenarios Bumi could have focused on P'li from the beginning of any of the fights and been able to encase her in rock pretty early on making her useless throughout the other fights tipping each of the fights in favor of White Lotus, but I guess that could have been too easy
Bumi wouldn’t be able to beat Pli easy or early
People overrate ghazan....ghazan had a problem with bolin when he started lava bending ghazan has always been overconfident he had a problem with bolin even when bolin had learned lava like a week ago ....plus ghazan started with normal earthbending in the catacombs until he remembered so ghazan isn't that smart ....bumi is super ahead ...plus ghazan can be overwhelmed with alot of rocks coming his ways ....I see bumi better
Ghazan was against mako and bolin
Well iroh and jeong jeong and zaheer also get overrated
Ghazan wasn’t having trouble with bolin
Bumi could just burrow underground to get out of the fight with Ghazan. Bumi would definitely insist on being the one to take on airbending Zaheer due to him being the only one to go against an Airbender before. And I'm not just talking about Bumi vs Aang. Bumi had fought a lot of Airbenders before that and that's why he wasn't immediately taken out by Aang like all of Aang's other opponents who weren't used to Airbender tactics.
Zaheer has flight and doesnt fight like the typical air bender
Bumi hasnt fought alot of air benders before only aang and none are like zaheer
Yes bumi beats zaheer but the rest of his teammates dont do that well.
@RonnyThaDonKyles *that we've seen. Bumi clearly had experience with airbenders.
"Typical airbending strategy: avoid and evade. I'd hoped the avatar would be less predictable."- Bumi during his fight with Aang.
Yes Zaheer does fight like an airbender. Sure he's more aggressive but he still has a similar fighting style.
@@vision-dz6cmwe go on what we have seen we don’t speculate not fair
Yes Bumi beats Zaheer because he’s way stronger not cause he has experience with air benders considering he was a little kid when they were around
@RjZyon it's not speculation. It's listening to what the show tells us. Bumi knows how Airbenders fight. He said so himself.
"with his staff?" THAT WAS TENZINS!!!!
Tbh i think piandao might be the lead due to him being a really skilled fighter and strategist. But it could go either way
Btw Iroh in the underground cave of Ba Sing Se held off the Dai Li, Azula and Zuko, the Dai Li being expert earth benders, and Zuko and Azula being specially trained, keep in mind there were alot of Dai Li agents, and Iroh only lost because he resented, could've held them off, and defeated some of the Dai Li and possibly Zuko or Azula. He only knew he would lose, and that's why he gave up.
Your overrating the WL
colonel mongke traded blows with iroh.
And he was captured by mooks
And Zhao went in Jeong jeong fire wall
And Iroh.Pakku.Jeong Jeong.Piandao have never fought seriously or against a skilled bender.
Iroh and Jeong jeong doesn't have speed or agility.
And Iroh has no large scale bending besides sozin comet.
Iroh really just only has hype.
Iroh didn't hold off the Dai lee he threw 3 attacks then got captured that's not impressive
Zuko and azula didn't even fight Iroh in the cave only the Dai lee
He didn’t hold off the dai Lee and azula he got captured in seconds.
And azula already knocked him out once.
And Iroh got captured by fodder earth benders.
Iroh has no good feats
@@RjZyonbad take
He threw a few attacks then surrounded.
Antone "lightning bending is null in void against zaheer because of his airbending"
Azula in book three when she sniped aang "am I a joke to you?"
aaang was literally stationery bro/sis
Sneak attack 😂
The white lotus would run circles around the red lotus lets be real here😂😂
Are u sure
Well yeah but it still would be a cool fight
Kevin Malone oh are we talking about a fight? I thought we were talking about Pai sho🥴
Yung Sage lmao 😆
No they wouldn't
@@benswollo2 in pai sho?.they would desttoy them hard 😂
Aiwei being a Red Lotus member sitting there like: 👁👄👁
This is awesome and I haven’t even seen any content yet
I don’t comment on really any of your videos but I’ve been subscribed for YEARS and you’re one of my favorites
Wow, thanks!
No no thank you lol
I love your vs videos the most at the moment and I’ve been going back and rewatching a few. Could you put together a playlist of them all though? Having trouble finding them all
I agree with most of this video except for:
I think iroh would be the “leader” due to his experience in battle and him being a general in the past.
In scenario two. I think piandao and pakku can really beat ming hua. Pakku can keep her busy with long range attacks while piandao comes in close range. She will be too busy fighting both of them at the same time and will lose during mid fight i think. So without unalaq and with ming hua taken out, i think the red lotus will be out numbered too much. Also keep in mind that, yes the red lotus gained a bender with zaheer, but lost a bender with unalaq, so they basicly just lost their non bender. I don’t think zaheers bending skills will make up for the loss of unalaq.
i don’t think that the red lotus will win against the white lotus while being outnumbered, due to the combined skills and bending mastery of the white lotus. I believe They will take advantage of facing less opponents.
RonnyLamar KylesJr. Morals on nerfs Jeong Jeong a lot since he is a pacifist, and puts up walls to defend and immobilize his enemies.Imagine what he can do with his raw power bloodlusted
Dr.C even a pacifist jeong jeong is a force to be reckoned with. His fire walls are huge even without sozin comet, and he creates them out of no where. What’s even more incredible is when the first time they showed the white lotus. The gaang and appa where completely surrounded by a high firewall (that wasn’t even a straight line, but actually circled around the gaang). And when they showed each member of the white lotus, they didn’t even show jeong jeong using his hand to firebend. He just stood there. Wether he did need hand gestures to firebend or not. That feat alone still shows a complete mastery of fire bending.
RonnyLamar KylesJr. I understand what you mean, technically speaking, they could all be the leaders. But iroh being the main leader in this particular battle makes the most sense to me. Because
1 he was a general for years. He used to be the only person who broke through the walls of ba sing se not so long before tla happend.
2: he was also leading the campaign of the white lotus to free basing se.
3 bumi was a king of course, but hasn’t shown canon feats of him being a leader in combat. Neither did paku or piandao. Jeong jeong did have experience as a general/admiral, but i guess iroh has more rep world wide due to being royal, the fire nation prince (?), and having the nickname “the dragon of the west”
Marvel Loux Exactly and the wall was about as tall as Appa and enclosed the gaang’s camp. He made it at night too, when firebending is at its weakest
RonnyLamar KylesJr. You’re not getting my point. I am not talking about who has had the most fighting feats within the show. I am talking about who would be the most likely leader during a “group battle” like this.
As i mentioned before. Iroh has two canon moments within the show where he was the general/leader of a big combat operation.
Having more feats than iroh doesn’t make you a better leader. Katara beats sokka all day in a fight, but during some battles, it was shown that sokka was a capable group leader who could come up with a strategy.
The same thing applies here. Iroh has more canon experience on the battle field, not only as a fighter, but also as a leader of an army. That has nothing to do with hype.
Speaking of hype. The whole white lotus has a lot of hype. Iroh after all was the one who broke the wall of basin se during sozins comet. If he wasn’t there then the rest of the white lotus might wouldn’t have been able to penetrate through those walls. And thus wouldn’t have been able to liberate basin se.
Let's not forget only Tenzon stood his ground against The Red lotus. Mako took down Ming Hua. We did not see any bender taking down any white lotus member unless dey surrounded for a reason.
"We did not see any bender taking down any white lotus member unless dey surrounded for a reason."
The white lotus never fought any tough opponents. Whereas the red lotus did. Tenzin is an incredibly skilled bender and even in this fight is right near the top
@@avatarmufasa3628 yeah I know. But considering the people who took down the red lotus, Mako is not better than uncle iroh but he took down Ming Hua, Bohlin is not better than Bumi but he took down that lava bender. I believe Master Poku is a powerful bender too bro
@RonnyLamar KylesJr. White lotus was fireee
Majesty Redden Pakku was stated to be the best traditional waterbender
@@dr.c6260 yeah bro
If Sokka and Zuko in their 70s and Tonraq could beat the Red Lotus, then there's no way that Jeong Jeong, Bumi, Pakku, and Piandao aren't having their way with them (Tenzin and Iroh are equally strong.)
Ian Stephenson Yeah exactly except they were around their late 60s-early 70s since the events of LoK started in 170 AG happened about 15 years before that
@@dr.c6260 The Red Lotus spent 13 years in prison, which means Zuko and Sokka would have been 74 when they took them down. And Pakku is a much stronger waterbender than Tonraq, even though he's much older.
It heavily depends on circumstances and the arena. We don't know any details about how the red lotus got captured and it is still possible that Sokka died there. Zuko also had his dragon probably, because why wouldn't he.
We don't know how they did that and we go on feats
@@ianstephenson9721 we compare feats
I wonder wut combustion bending would look like during sozin's comet
Is there a video analyzing bending styles? ATLA vs Korra? Korra seems really fast bending and even Kya is like a mix between the two