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Repair of Rodgers 905 organ with drippy glue
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2020
- During the 1990s, Rodgers was owned by Roland and used their technology for keys. Roland selected a glue to retain key weights that ultimately ended up liquifying and making the keyboards unplayable. The worst formulation was pink but some versions are white. Rodgers replaced the affected manuals for a long time but their stock has completely run out and is not made any more, so there are quite a few very nice organs from this era that are essentially dead for this reason.
I bought this organ in non-working condition with the intention of throwing the manuals and electronics away and constructing a virtual pipe organ using a computer and some Allen manuals I bought separately, but the organ is so nice and the glue problem was reasonably mild, so I decided to try fixing it instead. Here I show how I did it, including various mistakes.
By the way, not long after this, the organ stopped working again. Power supply was bad. Luckily I was able to replace it with a generic power supply (the Mean Well RT-125B) that only cost about $30. Then I wired the outputs to a set of 6 JBL 305P monitors and a sub. Now it looks great and works perfectly.
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I bought the very organ you are showing in the late 90s. It was a left-over from a convention that nobody wanted. I have been playing it ever since. About 6 or so years ago the keys started sticking, I sort of got used to it and went through a little routine before every practice unsticking the keys. A week ago, however, a heat wave hit and the organ became totally unplayable. There's no way I could afford a new one and I need it to practice for my job. I was in despair when I found your video. I am thrilled to say I followed your instructions and everything is once again working perfectly! I can't thank you enough. Bless you - you saved my day!
So glad it worked out! Such a nice organ to be ruined by a silly thing like the wrong kind of glue, right?
Now this is what I like to see, someone purchasing an older digital organ and putting in the time to get it back to operating status. I've got am Allen MDS 8000 church organ that's in great shape, also got a Lowrey Rhapsody SU-400 digital organ and a Technics GA-3 digital organ and a Yamaha HX-1 digital organ and Yamaha FX-20 digital organ.
Thanks for the video Grant, it helped me too much. Greetings from Mexico
That's a Beautiful organ,great video.
I had the exact same problem with my Rodgers 950. During a heat wave, all the glue melted and ran out of the keys and down the front of the console. A huge mess. We removed the keyboards, cleaned it all off with Goo Gone, swabs, and a scraper, but it just kept coming back. That glue rehardens like concrete. After 2 major cleanings, we gave up and replaced the keyboards with new Fatars. I understand Rodgers is using better keyboards these days.
I love the video. I love how much effort you put into it. I hope you can see your way clear to buy a tripod for your camera, and a light colored work surface that would make your life easier. Maybe even a table so you don't have to work on the floor. Thanks....
Nice! I wonder how much value you just added to that organ. Great job, as always.
Excellent work in fixing these Roland keyboards! Nice to see that patience and good judgement brought success. The name for the strips of felt (by location) is Up-Stop felt & Down-Stop felt; it looks like your replacement is OK. Regarding the black keys; they are all the same, or are intended to be the same for a universal fit. As they were made by the thousands, the numbers (1-2-3) refer to the factory mould dies which created them; the white keys are also identical -by name- only with top-C being one special. And yes, springs are black & white! Key-Guides (black posts) and rear pivots all require white grease for smooth action.
Early production weighted keys had pink epoxy (which softened and failed miserably), later came white, Roland tried again with a better formulation which was black epoxy. (I'm a Rodgers technician of 40 years)
Thanks for your comment. Lots of things I would do different if I had it to do again but at least it did work out in the end. After this video I also fixed one thumb piston and replaced the cage power supply, but now it works well (except that the crescendo pedal still blinks in and out as it is being depressed). I guess the differences in the keys by octave was my imagination. That actually makes me feel a lot better...I simply could not figure out the code!
@@bendirval3612 Crusty, oxide-bitten potentiometers can cause intermittent operation of Crescendo and Swell /Expression controls. Try running the crescendo pedal back and forth many times to see if it improves. Replacement is the final fix for this (these are Linear-taper pots) Before removing the linkage. make a voltage reading of the wiper (center terminal) when in full-closed position. With a new pot, the shaft rotation position needs to match that of the previous pot; it's the specific voltage output that matters. Voltage readings are referenced to Ground using a digital meter; the 3rd terminal on each pot is ground, the 1st terminal is +5v.
@@MonteCarlotta Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar. I just worked the pedal back and forth a bunch and then redid the a/d calibration and now it doesn't seem intermittent any more. Maybe just a smidge at the fully open point. Funny, because it doesn't seem crusty or rusty but I guess I can't see everything. I really appreciate your help!
The only remaining issue is the M1 button, which has a burned out light (but otherwise functions). I guess I need a complete replacement? Or is there a bulb that can be changed out? No pressure to respond...you have helped me a great deal already.
It’s really shocking that any of the digital organ makers charge what they do for this sort of construction. It’s literally a fancy looking Roland keyboard. It doesn’t even pay to buy digital vs. pipe anymore, because for what Allen or Rodgers charges plus installation, I could build a (mostly) new pipe organ (although it may be smaller with slightly less tonal capability) with a fully solid state control system and midi capability. A pipe organ will longgggg outlast any of the digitals on the market and cost much less in the long run, given that it is well built. Regardless of what some people say. And yes, I can guarantee that.
New organs are very much overpriced, especially when compared with something like a digital piano, which is more complex but vastly cheaper. I don't know about pipe organs. They seem expensive enough that you would need a pretty long "long run" horizon for them to be worthwhile. If you know how to build one, I would be very interested in watching a video on it.
They are definitely expensive, but you definitely get what you pay for. The work involved in building one is so tedious and frustrating, that if the end result wasn’t as rewarding as it is, than us builders would say “this is not even worth the money”. It’s not hundreds or even thousands of hours... it’s usually tens of thousands of hours worth of work. We usually don’t make a massive profit from our work like most types of businesses. That’s another good point I just thought of. Digital organ makers are in the business of mass production and making money as cheaply as possible, mostly made by machine, partly assembled by hand. Pipe Organ builders are in it for the love of the instrument, crafting something incredible with our own two hands and seeing our hard work come to life and (literally) breathe beautiful sounds into the world. The possibilities are endless and the reward is unmatched. Everything is 100% custom to each specific instrument. Everything is hand voiced to the room the organ is in. You can’t do that with a digital organ because multiple pipe sounds are coming through the same speaker box. Regardless of a digital makers claim to be able to voice to a room.... they can’t. They’re very limited. Once more than one stop plays at once, the “voicing” they did on their laptop goes out the window. With a pipe organ, every single pipe (usually thousands) from a speaking lengths from 1/4” of an inch all the way to 32’ feet in height, are individually voiced to sound optimal in the room they’re playing in, from their positioning in the room. Just to give you an idea of how much of a difference that makes... if you take one pipe in one location, play it while listening out in the room... then move it a few feet in one direction or another, it will sound completely different. Physics is an amazing thing. It gives us many options to do some pretty cool things
I am from the theatre organ side of the fence. I have five ranks which cost me almost nothing. I releathered the wind chests, built regulators, built a solid state relay. The pipes play like champs.
Thanks for this, Grant. That was fascinating. I have enough difficulty playing piano, in addition to several other instruments, and that organ looks challenging to play - I would not know where to begin. Good on you.
I came here because I loved the precision with which you went about your CPAP machine servicing, and the videos you made about them, and I also came here because I play music.
I must admit, I would have stretched a length of painter's/masking tape across the keys, and then taken a ballpoint pen (not a sharpie, in case of leakage through the tape), and numbered each key (and then cut the tape into individual pieces to stick on each key), because I was wondering if they were different in some way from each other. I would also have done the same for the black keys
That and other similar preparations would have been good--you are smarter than me. I learned a lot, so next time I refurbish an organ (haha) I'll be more prepared.
This is amazing! I just purchased a Rodgers 580 that has this keyboard problem and I think I have the confidence to try what you did. I have some stop tabs and M2 piston that don't light. Did you have to replace any lights for those or figure out how? Thanks for the informative video.
It was definitely some effort but totally worth it. I play the organ all the time now and it's delightful. All I would do differently if I did it again was use a little more patience. All of my lights worked originally but one of my stop tabs (m1) had the glue inside it. I pulled it out (you have to desolder it) and soaked it in alcohol for a while. That fixed the glue but broke the light. It works, just doesn't light up. There were some on ebay for not too much money. I almost bought one but I don't really need a light on the m1 button so I didn't bother. These a great organs and very fixable. Good luck!
Great video, thank you! I have this exact organ in my church and it is pretty amazing. Fortunately, the keys are not sticking. I am, however, having difficulty with the stop tabs on the great and choir divisions on the right side of the console. It takes a great deal of effort to select/deselect some of them. I have to keep pushing on the top or bottom of the tabs, which makes them impossible to change while playing unless they are already in a preset. I can't seem to find any information on how to remove them to see if I can repair them, clean the contacts, or send them out for repair, as my service man is a couple hundred miles away. Any advice would be appreciated. TIA
Unfortunately, I never removed the stop tabs on mine, so I'm not sure what it looks like in there. I would be surprised if they used the same epoxy there, so it's probably a pretty different thing. If I were you I would open the back, as I did, and look around. See if you can figure out how it is *supposed* to come apart. Don't do anything risky, but it's probably worth taking a look at, especially since your nearest technician is so far away (and technicians are not cheap anyway). Good luck!
Grant, excellent video. I could use yor help and advice. How do I disconnect the ribbon cable from the manuals? I don't see a lock or latch. Also the ribbon on the bottom manual has no room to navigate. When I pull the manuals out some will there enough slack so I can disconnect it. When I am at the rear of the organ on the right sid, there is a cable loom going to each manual. I don't see where or how it is connected. I have a Rogers 950 classic organ with the same exact issue as yours. The nearest authorized repair service is over 100 miles away, which is three hours in New York time. I'm going to try the repair and if it is over my head I will drive the keyboards to the dealer for repair. Last, do you know where I can get a repair or technical manual for the 950? I'm also looking for an adjustable bench. Thank you, Dennis Skinner
I'll have to look at it again. My recollection was that the ribbons just pulled out with some friction, but there might have been something that needed to be squeezed on the sides or the front. I think I may have pulled the top two first, then slid all of them out a little and removed the top two manuals before disconnecting the bottom one. I bought my 905 teachnical manual on ebay, though it didn't really end up helping me much here. Possibly you could find it there or if you want I could scan mine for you (though it's a different organ). Good luck finding an adjustable bench. I wouldn't mind one myself.
Can you tell me what glue you used for the weight? You said epoxy, is there certain glue do you need to use?
It was regular consumer epoxy, like you would get at Walmart of whatever. I don't think you need special glue. Anything is better than what they used.
The pistons are on a separate oak rail that should attach by 4 small screws from the front. Generally brass to blend in. Be careful not to loose the screws.
The audio system is designed as a stereo system with two channels per division including the pedal. There should be a panel in the organ with adjustments for each channel volume, treble and bass. Get the speaker cones re-coned. If there is no board with the individual adjustments then it is a later model that has to be done with a computer. Don't go in and change the speakers because the end result will damage the amplifier if the ohms are not correct. You could set it up to play though the antiphonal channels which would be two channels only but the pedal response will be limited because of the speakers. If you have not done anything yet I would enjoy talking to you. I was a Rodgers Technician for 11 years and would be willing to help you through. I am on Facebook.
Thank you very much for your kind offer to help. After I replaced the power supply, I ended up removing the amp completely and intercepting the 8 line-level outputs (the inputs to the amp). I ran them to 6 JBL 305p powered speakers and a matching subwoofer. Now the organ is working beautifully. All those channels of output do a great job replicating the feel of being in a big church, considering they are just in my front room. The organ works wonderfully now, but I do plan to run the MIDI and stereo out channels to a computer so I can record performances or use Hauptwerk or GrandOrgue. Ultimately I'd like to hook up a few webcams and take lessons over the internet. Kind souls like yourself have been very helpful in giving me guidance about how to bring this organ to life.
It's as if the catalyst used with the epoxy failed. That is if it really was a type of epoxy.
Interested in selling the rodgers 905?
I love it too much to sell it.
You can purchase fatar keyboards, and replace the existing keyboards.
Mike, what model fatar keyboards could i use to replace the original rogers? Can i just buy the keys and use as direct replacements for the original?
@@dennisskinner2339 contact your local Rodgers rep. They can give you the model number if the keyboard. Since I do not work for Rodgers any more I do not have access to the website to get the numbers. It would be easier to just replace the entire assembly as it is just a few screws and 6 ribbon cables.
Mike, Thanks for the timely response. I have a Rogers 950 classic. My other question if i replace the keyboards wirth new fatar ones, will i still have my pistons, do i have to do any additional or rewiring?
You mean Fatar actually sells a keyboard that is compatible with the proprietary Rodgers/Roland multiplexing scheme? That is surprising.