Easier trade = I can build more characters in a league (I had one of every ascendency up to maps in Kalguur, up from the usual 4 to 6 from previous leagues). But if someone is a 'one and done' kind of player, they'll probably be done faster... So I understand GGG's hesitation. I do think they should add more gold sinks (beyond respecs) though as I see some players build up a lot of it. Or maybe it just needs a rebalance so it always feels like a limited resource. (I'm one of the people in trade league who plays in an SSF manner, usually only dealing with currency exchange, so the current system from Kalguur/EA PoE2 works well for me.)
Trade friction is good. An ingame auction house would lead to bigger problems than the current, manual, trading method. Ingame auction house: - Massive advantage for people seeking to manipulate the market (instant trading -> no time loss compared to manual trading) - Automated buyout-snipe bots will definitely become a thing, coded to insta-buy items with certain stats at certain prices - Loss of "chat spam" protection for people accidentally underpricing an item (getting spammed is a good "alert" that something's wrong) - The rich get richer -> way richer, due to the above mentioned advantages of instantaneous ingame trading - The poor stay poor, people with little time to play the game won't benefit from the ingame auction house (people running automation will buy cheap items instantly before these players can even find or buy them) - Beginners won't have an easier time trading than right now, because they'd still need to fine-tune their searches to get items that actually benefit their builds / to understand how to search for items and how to "price check" - Depending on how GGG implements the auction house: Shitstorm regarding paid tabs exploding in scale. Even if they do it like the currency market with a dedicated "stash" system (which I doubt, as that would ruin them financially if tabs for trade cease to be a thing), people with many bought tabs would benefit way more from the ingame auction house by being able to refill their stock quickly (big backlog of stash space) - Ingame auction house is a direct loss of quality of life for a portion of the PC playerbase (no longer able to see active searches on a second monitor, unable to see item alerts without opening the ingame auction house menu (or even worse, having to return to the hideout to access it) - Debatable: People who never traded before will still be overwhelmed by trading due to PoE's inherent item complexity and will thus still trade only very little or not at all, while people who've been trading a lot in the past might get burned out even quicker OR give up in frustration as good deals get sniped instantly by bots
Trade friction is good. An ingame auction house would lead to bigger problems than the current, manual, trading method (imo). Ingame auction house: - Massive advantage for people seeking to manipulate the market (instant trading -> no time loss compared to manual trading) - Automated buyout-snipe bots will definitely become a thing, coded to insta-buy items with certain stats at certain prices unless the gold fees are very high, but 1) that could have a negative impact on trading overall (having to farm lots of gold to trade), and 2) that'd benefit experienced players even more than before, as they're usually able to farm the most effectively - Loss of "chat spam" protection for people accidentally underpricing an item (getting spammed is a good "alert" that something's wrong) - The rich get richer -> way richer, due to the above mentioned advantages of instantaneous ingame trading - The poor stay poor, people with little time to play the game won't benefit from the ingame auction house (people running automation will buy cheap items instantly before these players can even find or buy them) - Beginners won't have an easier time trading than right now, because they'd still need to fine-tune their searches to get items that actually benefit their builds / to understand how to search for items and how to "price check" - Depending on how GGG implements the auction house: Shitstorm regarding paid tabs exploding in scale. Even if they do it like the currency market with a dedicated "stash" system (which I doubt, as that would ruin them financially if tabs for trade cease to be a thing), people with many bought tabs would benefit way more from the ingame auction house by being able to refill their stock quickly (big backlog of stash space) - Ingame auction house is a direct loss of quality of life for a portion of the PC playerbase (no longer able to see active searches on a second monitor, unable to see item alerts without opening the ingame auction house menu (or even worse, having to return to the hideout to access it) - Debatable: People who never traded before will still be overwhelmed by trading due to PoE's inherent item complexity and will thus still trade only very little or not at all, while people who've been trading a lot in the past might get burned out even quicker OR give up in frustration as good deals get sniped instantly by bots
(Please delete the comment if it shows up duplicated - it keeps getting auto-deleted on my end whenever I try to post it) I'd argue that trade friction is good. An ingame auction house would lead to bigger problems than the current, manual, trading method (imo). Ingame auction house: 1) Massive advantage for people seeking to manipulate the market (instant trading -> no time loss compared to manual trading) - Automated buyout-snipe bots will definitely become a thing, coded to insta-buy items with certain stats at certain prices unless the gold fees are very high, but a) that could have a negative impact on trading overall (having to farm lots of gold to trade), and b) that'd benefit experienced players even more than before, as they're usually able to farm the most effectively 2) Loss of "chat spam" protection for people accidentally underpricing an item (getting spammed is a good "alert" that something's wrong) 3) The rich get richer -> way richer, due to the above mentioned advantages of instantaneous ingame trading 4) The poor stay poor, people with little time to play the game won't benefit from the ingame auction house (people running automation will buy cheap items instantly before these players can even find or buy them) 5) Beginners won't have an easier time trading than right now, because they'd still need to fine-tune their searches to get items that actually benefit their builds / to understand how to search for items and how to "price check" 6) Depending on how GGG implements the auction house: Shitstorm regarding paid tabs exploding in scale. Even if they do it like the currency market with a dedicated "stash" system (which I doubt, as that would ruin them financially if tabs for trade cease to be a thing), people with many bought tabs would benefit way more from the ingame auction house by being able to refill their stock quickly (big backlog of stash space) 7) Ingame auction house is a direct loss of quality of life for a portion of the PC playerbase (no longer able to see active searches on a second monitor, unable to see item alerts without opening the ingame auction house menu (or even worse, having to return to the hideout to access it) 8) Debatable: People who never traded before will still be overwhelmed by trading due to PoE's inherent item complexity and will thus still trade only very little or not at all, while people who've been trading a lot in the past might get burned out even quicker OR give up in frustration as good deals get sniped instantly by bots
Surprised you didn’t go over the trade market from the console version. It has flaws but works surprisingly well. On top of the obsolete whisper x hideout trade feature, players can also search for items ingame and put an offer. You get a notification and either approve or reject, right away. And also works while you’re offline so you can put an offer, log out and if it gets accepted you just collect the item next time you log in. It’s simple but it does the job so well without the hassle of whispering several people and having to go to their hideout. If they improved 1. The ingame search which is really bad at the moment, 2. Allowed us to accept/reject offers without having to leave the map and 3. Added an auto-accept feature eg. Accept offers equal or 1 divine less than asked, I’m sure it would be widely used. It’s not bad at all imo.
A lot of people forget console has a trade market and it surprises me that GGG seems to do as well. They should have developed it further and put it into PoE 2 in my opinion, but who knows maybe they are doing that for release.
The console auction is just literally all the quality of life features that PC players yearn for and none of the advantages of actually having a proper search engine. This is done entirely on purpose, it's supposed to be much harder to search for things, that's the trade-off for having instant trade. An ARPG is all about finding and crafting items, a hyper-efficient trading option just completely negates all of that. Now the current trading solution already does negate some of those core tenets of ARPG's, but GGG's point is that it all could become worse than it already is. GGG has to go for an in-between solution because they want both the perceived value of items to be high, as in "I could trade this awesome item to my friends if I wanted to, I'm not gonna, but I could, so therefore people are more jealous of my item, which in turn makes me value my item more" and GGG also wants progression and balance to not be 100% tied to whatever a trade transaction could offer. I should really make my own video or write my own essay on the topic because people just do not understand this issue at a fundamental level. A hyper efficient economy isn't conducive for fun gameplay unless trading is literally meant to be the game by itself. In real life you want to minimize the amount of barriers between you and success, but in a video game those barriers are *LITERALLY* the game! The opposition IS the game! At some point making things easier is just becomes making less "game" to actually enjoy overcoming. If there is no point in looking at the ground because the first chaos orb lets you buy a 95% best in slot item and the actual best in slot item costs one million chaos then what is the point in actually playing the game?
@@HackFo If there is no point in looking at the ground because the first chaos orb lets you buy a 95% best in slot item and the actual best in slot item costs one million chaos then what is the point in actually playing the game? Nice made up scenario.
@@HackFobrilliantly said, GGG have actually said something similar to this before I believe, they don't really hide this fact if I'm correct? Or at the very least they've said botting is the reason for so much friction in trading, but I believe that THIS is also a VERY good reason that they know all too well. Your comment is A+
they made the "we dont want the highest level items in the game available through an auction house" argument COMPLETELY invalid when they created an external website and essentially made all the best items available through trade only. so, yes, give me a god damn auction house already
Poe's trading has always been horrible, most of us SSF players play SSF solely because of it (not for an extra challenge or whatever, just to not have to deal with it)
Maybe I'm just too smooth-brained to understand their position but everything they're worried about is already happening, even without an auction house. -Items are already being pricefixed -The best items are already astronomically priced -Bots are already using and manipulating the market And another thing I'm confused with is them being worried about their bottom line. Wouldn't an auction house reward people who has more stash tabs? People would literally buy more stash tabs just so they can have more items posted on the market which means higher bottom line. Am I missing something here?
@@adriangodoy4610 Ofc you can. People have done that for example in WoW for like 20 years. They buy everything and resell for more. Everytime someone puts up something for cheaper they just buy it and resell.
@@adriangodoy4610 Ah would make price fixing much easier to do. 1. Have a bot auto scan the AH and insta buyout a niche of the market 2. Put those things back up for however much more. You are now the kingpin of said market. With the trade website you can at least whisper the person and get picked by the guy you whispered. you have no chance with an AH.
Rn its made manually, if AH would be the thing. Its gona be automated to hell. You cant beat this problem but at least you can slow down the process and reset economy once in a while. AH will make market insufferable in minutes of new league. RN you can purposely ignore bots and only sell shit to legit users, you can understand that the guy is flipper by looking into his acc. Ah completely destroy this opportunity, to make trade better needed changes from community side, have some basic etiquette of trading. GGG can simulate this via making trade regulations. Like limited trades per day. You would think twice before engaging in trade.
Having to be online all the time to sell items is crazy, literally my biggest complain about poe Imagine waking up and collecting all the currency of the items you sold overnight, or just don't log in for a few days and boom, tons of items sold
yea its so dumb that people tried to say poe was better just because no AH. everyone used the damn websites and guides told you it was pretty much mandatory to trade to progress. exp loss on death making the game even more punishing meant perfect build and perfect gear was a MUST
Imagine having to be online, and then having to actually TRADE like in a fucking runescape game just to get ONE ITEM. The braindead community actually agrees with them 😂😂😂😂😂
Except that's not what would happen if an AH like that existed. First, if players can post auctions and logoff then the amount of available items for sale would increase by an order of magnitude causing massive item inflation and devaluation. Second, more items means more pricing competition, which means that if you logged off then everyone online is just going to undercut whatever price you had with in a few minutes to compete for the sale. Almost nothing you posted will sell 15-30mins after you logged off and what did sell you'd get a fraction of the value you'd have gotten without an AH. An AH completely changes the economics of a game. In PoE we've always had a seller's market because the limits of P2P trade keeps inflation lower and the friction/opportunity cost (leaving maps) gets priced into items to incentivize the seller to actually trade creating a price floor. An AH would flip it into a buyer's market where the supply side is flooded by persistent always available instant supply that crashes the value. People who've thought about this beyond just the convenience factor of trading know an AH in PoE would likely turn out very bad.
Great video! Let's be honest, easy trade has existed for a long time, it's just archaic and annoying by today's standards. Therefore, the argument that 'easy trade' is bad is blatantly false, a lie. He doesn't want to make trading feel like P2W due to premium stash tabs, and he cares about perception and how people view the game. Since the trade site can be seen as a '3rd party thing,, it creates the illusion that premium stash tabs aren't P2W. The game needs a good trading feature, period. Just look at the currency exchange, it has added so much quality of life and more balanced currency values, it is universally appreciated. This 'friction' nonsense across multiple features needs to go if they want to improve the game. It would be even better if SSF and trade league had different balancing approaches. SSF shouldn't be a 'challenge mode', it's just a different way to play.
there are good economic reasons. your availability and willingness to make a trade is THE control mechanism for supply, in lieu of real world logistics. if your time/opportunities are no longer impacted by trading then suddenly not only are more people engaging with the market but they're now listing items they wouldn't have been willing to spend time trading before. so now there's like 50x more items available and they're diluting the value of items you're bringing in. those 500 essences you spent all day farming are worth very little because the items they could be used to create has to compete against the massively increased supply and dwindling relative demand for med grade items. then economic mobility is significantly reduced as the only way to penetrate the next layer of the economy is with a jackpot drop, and most players are resigned to 2nd hand clothing in the charity shops and will never be able to afford diamonds, because they have nothing to offer that isn't already available. PoE2 is obviously not complete rn and they have new problems they have to solve, like no longer being able to reroll item bases and it bottlenecking the utilization (and thus the trade value) of certain currencies. but like, GGG would have to conceive of a completely new economic design that touches upon every part of the game and I understand why they're unwilling to do that. because PoE1's itemization, economy, progression etc. scales so well.
@kennethnoisewater4423 This impact is even evident by the currency exchange. The currency exchange made scarab trading much much easier to do so a lot of things that are exchanged on that market devalued. Catalysts dropped massively in price compared to just a few leagues ago due to how easy it is to just buy ultimatum scarabs in bulk and speed farm them. Scarabs themselves are devalued with only a specific few retaining a large price anymore AND even some things are MORE expensive on the "QOL" exchange due to the easy access. You can actually buy things in bulk cheaper on the trade site.,
@kennethnoisewater4423 I don't think this concern about people dumping everything into a dump tab is true for many reasons, one of them being the fact that active traders already do that. Maybe the issue would be with very cheap items that are normally thrown away, but there are natural solutions for that. You could limit the number of items listed per player (it's already a thing due to premium stash tabs), make gold useful for once by adding a fee to all sales and pushing players to grind, or create an entirely new untradable currency token that is required to list an item, and so on. That is not the concern at all; there are many solutions. The developers are either not interested in making something worse than a website because it takes development time, or, as I mentioned, a native trading system bound to the cash shop could easily make the game look bad to new players, and that’s something they will not compromise. At the end of the day, they also care about profit. You can already freely trade essences in the currency exchange by the way.
It is a MUST for us to have an Auction House or Similar system. 99.99% of the players DISPISE the interaction between other fellow players. It is social yes, but, it's AWFUL (Afks, bots, price fixers, people that wouldn't invite you to honor a 1 alteration worth of a trade, busy playing the game). No Doubt that Chris Wilson had a fine vision back then but it is not suitable for the today/future, in the other hand, Jonathan + Neon seemed to adapt with the timeline. Again, Chris is one of the main pillars of the game and the Studio, but man, some of his archaic ideas had to be put down and dismissed immediately.
@@FinalLightNL Last night i Had a Interactions with a Player who searched a Item for days and i gave it to him. We Had a small Talk about it and it was kind nice.
Good video! Interesting to see the history of the community vs. GGG on this topic. Coming from Diablo 2, the current trade system seems amazing, but I do wish there was instant transfer of listings in-game. Happy to pay a gold fee for that.
I never sold anything from my stashes. Why? Coz it's super annoying to stop doing what Im doing only to do the trade. On top of that, I used to farm the trials. And I cannot go to trade while I am doing the trials. Seriously that system is so stupid.
I heard once tpb said that if we have an action hose, people wont be selling their items for cheap anymore since they are so scared of mispricing it and getting scammed because of that
Procurement brings me way back. I don't miss that time at all. Not sure if I want an auction house even though I hate trading. Currency exchange is perfect but items are complex. I like the power of the website. Trading itself should be better though, without leaving a map for example.
Idk the only way I can see trade being better while still having good friction would be if they let us create a shop in our HO that way you still have to physically go to the person to actually trade but they don't have to be here.
I'm tired of dealing with people and whispering for hours and hours to just be ignored. Just give me a damn AH so I can buy what i want and call it a day, waste my time dealing with people
Those are mostly price fixers you're whispering to i guess. For me the trading experience was the worst as a first time poe2 player because I had to whisper about 50 people just to get a bad rolled unique item which was overpriced.
To answer your last question, I agree with parts of both sides. Limiting trade has it's benefits, and some kind of solution that prevents rampant market shifts is usually a good thing. That said, the current system exhibits a complete lack of respect for players' time, forcing us to sit around waiting for someone to "get around to us", which is incredibly frustrating. I don't mind being required to invest time and effort to earn gold to make a purchase, but forlornly sending out messages into the void hoping for a response is just unacceptable. Requiring players to have to drop what they're doing to make the trade, especially if you're in the middle of something that's not easy to just drop out of, is unacceptable.
@shethek1733 Gold is the friction part. They are wanting it to switch to a different type of friction. One friction makes you go outside the game and wait doing nothing. While the other makes you play the game to get gold. To me having player doing the more fun thing for the friction makes more sense.
You nailed it. Requiring the seller to be online is too tedious. It hinders low level trading as well, at some point people just can't be bothered to drop what they're doing for a 5/10c request. An auction house, or at least a trade inbox so the seller can get back to clients later would be nice
@@richardmenz3257 How do you make gold the friction for gear when gear has subjective value depending on the build and the point of progression of a character? You can't. So instead you have to either 1. make the gold transaction so high in price on ALL gear that its prohibitive to ever sell low end to mid tier gear or 2. It isn't actually ever friction and may as well not be there.
@@Deminese2 You don't understand. In this scenario gold does not function as a price tool, but as a additional fee for each transaction you make. So if you want to sell/buy a lot of items, you will need additional resource (gold) to do that, regardless of currency amount you have.
You will NEVER get an in game auction house, the currency exchange was their compromise. People pay IRL money for hideout cosmetics they want people to see. Additionally, the website adds a layer of difficulty that dissuades people from trading. It's not huge, but every single extra step someone has to take to do something, the less people will use it.
The only way an auction house can work if it's like Guild Wars. Where gold and currency matters. Guild Wars has been around for years and buying an item for 10 gold is still a heavy choice. It would require a complete design rework of loot and currency
hence, what they wanted for "friction". Technically, it functions like how you do search on your own stash, click on the highlighted item, then offer the price and seller either accept or decline.
@@ArnoldsKtmoh you won’t find anything very specific. Theirs one trick I’d use where I’d find an item on the website, say a pair of boots. Now on console you can filter by the base type so find that specific base of boots. Now you type in the name of the item you found on website (the prefix and suffix name). Now on the console board it will highlight based off that search but you could scroll through 100’s of items or more depending on the base trying to find that one highlight item. You still always had to use the website to at least get an idea of price. Say you wanted a exotic and it goes for one chaos orb for mediocre rolls on website, well the market place board might just show pages or ones listed for divines or more for low rolls and theirs no way to filter or rank by price. Basically they throw a big blob of stuff at you and that’s the friction.
Tab affinities only exist for things that already have a dedicated stash tab available, which is not nearly enough of the garbage that must be waded through and sorted manually. We've even lost certain affinities, like what happened to the expedition locker? A simple sort function would be trivial to implement and would make organization much easier. Spending time sorting jewels, tablets, crafting bases etc just adds unnecessary tedium. 'Friction' has always been code for adding unnecessary complexity or tedium to what should otherwise be mundane tasks.
Don't act like tab affinity doesn't sort 95% of what you pick up in maps and you don't even have to have the specific tab for it to work your just complaining to complain at this point.
@lowfade556 if you don't know what tab affinities are it's a check box item that allows you to have your items autodrop to that tab based on what kind of item they are.
Thank you for this as someone who didn’t play poe1 but has 350 hrs into poe2 this was my biggest complaint that I wanted an auction house but had no idea about the history behind why we don’t have it this has been very insightful
So, my argument is always to allow instant buyout for anything below 10 ex. This maintains their “friction” for good items, but allows people to actually get people’s low cost items that they are not willing to leave maps for. The downsides: if a player lists an expensive item for 1 ex on accident or from lack of knowledge it’s lost. Another possible fix to this is also to place up a trade yes/no pop up somewhere not annoying so the seller has to click it. This popup would need to be hidden when /dnd is active for fear of getting you killed. This solves the previous problem because if you are absolutely spammed with trades you know you made a mistake
The trade system PoE has used has always been the worst of both worlds. The game is balanced around trade, requires trade to progress unless you play insane number of hours and is so frustrating that you hate the entire system. Any choice they made would be better than the one they went with.
I self limit and just play SSF with the currency exchange. Craft my own gear, swap or give away things to friends I either don't need or would be good for their build(s). Game gets quite a bit deeper like that to be honest.
Could make a merchant trial where u must complete it to unlock a limited auctionhouse where u start with 1 slot to either request an item at a price or put an item up for a set price, complete higher trials get more auction slots.
That's why Last Epoch solution is so brilliant. They are the ones that truly advanced ARPG's into modern era of having both trade and SSF experience viable and fun. I wish GGG will recognize that SSF and trade leagues exists for that purpose and make adjustments in order to make both fun. Especially that LE showed that each league (SSF and trade) can have some kind of progression system which rewards you the longer you play the league.
LE SSF league is pathetic and one of many things in that game that were just pandering. If you enjoy SSF play it. Asking for base mf is like asking for base PDR in HC.
That's what sadden me the most, appart from the new vision they have for the combat system that fall flat once in end game, and a somewhat boring atlas mapping change, they did not innovate on a single topic. Nothing new for crafting, for trading, nothing really new in term of active skill and passive tree. It's almost indentical to PoE1 with minor adjustment and less content. It's an EA, it's the perfect time to test radical new idea.
@@secsenigel3316 what kind of bozo take is this, so youre saying SSF shouldn't have better drop rates? Do you even know what youre talking about? Some people really just need to yap nonsense.
@@AdrianDWolfe like i said it's like saying "so you think HC shouldn't have better survivability? when you die you die so why should it be the same difficulty as SC?". you want the challenge of playing without trade but whooa no not that much of a challenge plz change game for me. stop crying and play the game or better yet, play single player offline and stop trying to force developers to make a safe space for you
When I put stuff in premium tab, I feel annoyed that someone can interrupt me with whispers and I have to keep a look into it. It generates anxiousness and annoyance and I do not want to log in to prevent that.
I don't want an auction house, i just want there to be a way to trade more easily such that we don't have to whisper a ton of people in hopes someone actually takes the time to trade. That being said, i don't want things to get to a point where it's always the best option to trade. I've found the game so much more fun after playing ssf for a few leagues and actually taking the time to learn and craft my own gear. Mindlessly farming for currency suddenly becomes enjoyable when you know you're going to use all of your alterations and chaos and exalts on stuff. And when you finally hit the rolls you want it's probably a better feeling than dropping a crazy good unique.
I really like your video's so far, and I hope many people will see this little pearl of information of the trading debacle over the years. Lovely insights, I only knew what I have seen since 2018.
GGG has such a stupid mindset about "friction" in trading. Can someone please ask Jonathan what EXACTLY he means with friction? Like he should describe that shit in details please.
basically to stop or slow progression in real time. its essentially timegating, but they want to be special snowflakes and not do what every other massively multiplayer persistent online game does: dungeon cooldowns.
Gold as a method of friction would be enough, right? I cannot trade all day without farming maps and getting some gold. But GGG wants to deliberately waste my time is a huge red flag to me.
@@SokaMagic No it would not because I ask you. How do you price a gold tax on a pair of boots? You're not listing the boots for 500m gold you're listing it for divines. So how do you appropriately gold tax the 100 divine boots and the 1 ex boots? You can't. You can only put a blanket very gigantic tax to trade any gear or it does nothing there is no inbetween due to the insane variables of gear. If you say gold tax it based off its listed orb value that will directly affect how people trade with currency and would interfere with the market which GGG is vehemently against.
Yeah I know. Of course, it makes sense that they want us to play nonstop. But the whole process should be fun and not feel like a chore. Sometimes poe2 is more stressful than real jobs. That's why I stopped playing a week ago. The map layouts are so shit for endgame. You constantly have to backtrack and it feels awful. BTW never played poe1 but those map layouts from poe1 look so much more fun than the maps in poe2.
I actually really like how selling and buying works in poe2. I'm used to just going on the AH to get whatever i need and it's a nice change of pace trying to find gear that's good and having to check now and then for upgrades. As a new poe player i hope they never change it. It gives the game alot of charm
I was fine with there being no auction house until I learnt the game is balanced around trade. Instead of restricting players to third-party websites and recently the official trade site give us a true auction house without the needless hassle the current system comes with, or remove those OOG options and make trading a purely in-game feature. (with the current ways to advertise in-game just being spamming chat channels I reckon this would be a horrible solution)
For the love of god... create an auctionhouse... i am so fed up with people not answering whispers etc.And the "interaction" part is stupid too.. like.. you do not exchange one word except "ty!" ususally.
You get to see the other persons hideout though, when sometimes they spend IRL money to show it off by buying cosmetics for it. It's not going to happen
i love hearing GGG talk about why they need trade friction. its as though they believe that not having an instant buyout/auction house is limiting the player in some way. news flash, it isn't. we still get any item we want when we want it, it just becomes this immensely terrible and frustrating experience now, instead of a streamlined one. the way we have trade now we're still not limited, except for the ridiculous factors like people not answering, price fixers, etc. giving us an instant buyout or direct auction house option will not change the fact that we can get whatever item/character power we want. the limiting factor remains what it should be, the cost in currency instead of the cost in our mental stability. GGG is very out of touch with this whole conversation because they are not even considering this. they still think their arguments for trade fiction hold water.
You happy if one item is 50 div more expensive than it should be because some bot buys it every time it goes up cheaper? Like some meta item. Using gold as a limiting factor to prevent market manipulation is exactly what's needed. Gold is the limiting factor in the currency exchange, for example. Gold is the only thing stops me from flipping currencies into 50+ divine an evening. I'd do this because it's efficient not because it's fun. Right now I can do the same thing with quivers or wands. Once you have enough capitol you can just price everyone out for profit.
@@ChecksMagee "You happy if one item is 50 div more expensive than it should be because some bot buys it every time it goes up cheaper?" exactly. and the rest of your comment answers this. it happens already. the difference is it would be instant vs not. bots will do bot things regardless. so GGG should address the bot situation and not tailor an entire mechanic in the game around them, allegedly, which doesn't change the situation at all anyway.
Add a resale counter and cooldown to items. Every time an item is bought it can't be resold for x hours(24?). Every time that resale counter goes up, the trade cooldown goes up by x or doubles. Pla,ers using the Items they buy to use wont care. Bots sit on items for days until they can be resold, choking their stash. Its an option. Maybe not a good one. As long as there is no real crafting, prices will always spiral out of control because there is no other realistic way to get a specific item except for trading. Crafting limits the amount of currency invested to get specific affixes and thus, you would not buy an item for 1000 exhalts if you can make it yourself for the currency equivalent of 200 exhalts. Unless you really want that 1 more life on that gear minmaxing and for those players prices are irrelevant anyway
@junk3996 @bcpksn I really like the idea of making crafting more viable. I would love that, but then I digress to the balancing of crafting. I just hope they use the beta test to test or try some things. I think we all come from the same place. I want an auction house, I just don't want the game to "be" the auction house. I want to buy, craft, and find gear. Not just one of those options. I certainly don't want to be spending playtime at Alva flipping currency or items because it's a better money maker than playing the game.
Awesome video with great detailed information on the history of trading in POE. I just started playing in POE 2 so I didn't know anything. It seems that we had go a long way and the current stage of trading is 10 times better than how it used to be. For me, I like things the way it is. I agree with the developers that making trade a bit difficult is more beneficial for the game.
For me an auction house can't be here fast enough. You waste so much time trying to find an item, then when you do you message said person only to be waiting for quite a few minutes. Meanwhile the person who is running maps, trials etc has to drop whatever to complete a trade
The official trading website is good enough but an auction house would fix the main issues which are players not answering to trade requests and scams I get their point though, having at least some friction makes sense
I can't help but compare this with warframe: They literally limit the amount of trades you can make per day depending on your level, with some minimum account level required to even trade at all which is a non-issue for a starting player (as long as you have a good early-game acts, which PoE2 now has). With a bit of tweaking for the way PoE does stuff (currency can be always traded, only gear has limits, maybe tie it to item level or rarity, maybe you can trade earlier in league if your account already could trade at a given level before or maybe not! to force people into a kind of ssf early in league until they finish a bit of acts). With some generous limits at the higher level, they could have instant buyouts, great search, automated auction houses and still not completely open the flood gates to bots. And yes, while 'syndicates' will always find a way (boost new accounts through acts, which increases time/money lost for the syndicate in case of bans) this seems like a decent price to pay for a comfortable trading system
Personally I like the lack of an auction house in POE1. It creates community all of the friends I made in poe1 where through trades. Had a lot of cool interactions. But in poe2 it’s a clusterfuck. But I think that’s because poe1 had a dedicated hardcore fan base. Where as poe2 is filled with bots and casuals. But the idea of missing out on seeing peoples hideouts having them see mine and chit chatting to one another during our trades makes me sad. Instant buyouts makes it feel more like a solo game with an NPC that sells anything you could possibly need, instead of meeting real who made something really cool thanking them for their hard work and crafting skills and possibly making a friend. Tons of times I’d trade with someone who had a high tear crafted item and they’d explain to me how they made it and we’d become friends and they’d walk me through how the crafting mechanic worked. And then when we got online we show each other cool items we made. Instant buyouts means that’s gone. Now in po2 there isn’t really the same crafting so that specific example would never happen cause we all know how to spam exalts. But still the human online feel of the game will vanish. Personally you take the community out of it and I’ll lose interest fast. I need interactions with other real people to feel like the grind is worth it, if it’s just a solo game it starts to feel like a lonely waste of time.
I think the fundamental issue with trade now is that when a *new* players gets scammed because of "trade friction" (IE it sucks) they simply decide that they don't want to bother with trading anymore. There's already a skill gap for trade league players. The friction doesn't stop the blasters, they're more willing to put up with the shitty trading. They will do it and the more casual players just won't.
Trading just instantly makes me lose all interest in ground loot. As soon as I do that, I become immensely bored and only start to view the games as ex/hour, nowadays div/hour. Go SSF and never turn back. Balance around SSF as well. Trade is a self defeating, unbalancing force.
Trading makes games objectively worse once the economy breaks from bots and RMT. Right after resets trade is better than SSF, but after it breaks SSF is better than trade. Unless you are RMT''ing. Anyone who says it isn't is RMT'ing. Adding an auction house just gives an additional tool for fluid automation for bots and RMT'ers which breaks the economy faster after a fresh league, which decreases the amount of time trade is fun. They won't ever add it in.
A wandering merchant NPC should appear in towns, allowing players to interact with it. The idea is endgame players give unique items to the wandering merchant in the hideout, limited to only one vendor tab of items. The wandering merchant appears randomly in towns or randomly during the campaign. If another player purchases from the wandering merchant, all the players who gave the unique item to the wandering merchant should receive a currency reward. The concept is similar to the unique vendor map, however it is funded by actual players. As players reach the endgame, single Exalted Orb trades become inconvenient, leading many to avoid them. However, if they had a wandering merchant where they could list up to one vendor tab of unique items, it would provide a convenient way to offload some gear and provides new players with a steady resource of unique items to reach the endgame. GGG has said that unique items are "build enabling", and with so many unique items left on the ground it would be interesting to see what new players would do with them.
So Poe2 is my first time playing the franchise. I’m lv 86 and I’ve pretty much learned the ins and outs of how gear works. What I would like to see, is a standardized currency put ingame that can be used for trade. Warframe does this very well with platinum. Trading for Divs is a NIGHTMARE, because you actually have to farm them first, and they are unbearably rare. I know it’s apart of the grind to keep you playing…but scalping is way too rampant in chat, where one guy is selling a macerate piece of gear for 40divs, then some other guy is selling a far better piece for just 10 divs. It sucks the life out of wanting to even interact with trade, but because of how the game drags unless you get better gear, and better gear is hidden in difficult content, and you need that gear to play difficult content….you have no choice but to trade. And auction house would work ONLY if GGG set particular prices to each mod on gear, with higher and lower % of mods influencing price, as well as a ‘finders fee’ for players to atleast get something more. That’s a lot typed, but a grand exchange would greatly improved new user experiences
I think a trade system that is automated, auction house style, needs the friction from something like gold, and the friction needs to be high enough to deter people and bots from abusing it. Or in other words, the game itself should be arbitraging the currencies. You can do this by setting trade limits to daily or weekly transactions, increasing transaction fees for repeated flipping, and creating a higher barrier of entry for people who would rather not play the game itself, but only trade. For instance, an account can increase its trade limits with more KYC. You already have KYC with buying premium tabs. This could help deter abuse and bots.
Whether you fall on the side of frictionless trading or not, the biggest pain point for either system is the issue of botting, scamming, price fixing, and RMT (real-money trading). While I do believe that a significant portion of this issue is overblown or mistakenly categorized (e.g., someone carelessly throws a 5-divine item into a 1-divine dump tab, and it gets mistaken for price fixing), it is undoubtedly felt by the community. Setting aside the fact that early access is plagued by duping and stagnation due to the lack of meaningful currency sinks that naturally combat inflation, the economy suffers most from botting. Botting is the driving factor behind the rising tide of inflation, dishonest trade listings, and exponentially multiplies the friction of trading beyond what I would imagine even Chris Wilson would have deemed acceptable. GGG needs to implement stronger countermeasures against botting before they can address the demand for an auction house.
Yes definitely. I was thinking that new accounts should have trade redtricitons or something like daily/weekly/monthly limits. This can be achieved numerous ways like, length of account history, amount spent on supporter packs or mtx etc. This way GGG knows their customer, the barrier for abuse is higher, and every tom dick and harry isnt trying to flip items. The price flipping and manipulation hurt the game, and shouldnt be so easy for bots. The more you trade the harder your margins should get in order to coerce players to play, not arbitrage
Last epoch already solved this problem. Dont like trade? use the ssf faction. Like trade? use the merchant faction. Sure the systems arent perfect but they get much closer to solving the problem than what poe 2 is doing.
Its all about playtime metrics, if trade has an option for instant buyout or a 24hr bidding process, this means the hideput warriors will no longer spend 12hrs afk but maybe 1/4 that time and actually play the game, which will add more server load, more cost & less playtime metrics
My main issue with the current trading system is that I get way less value out of my own drops and builds. I CANT SELL. When somebody is online 2-3 hours max a day, and his focus is on playing the game, good luck to sell something. Crafting is WAY WAY more expensive than buying if u CANT SELL. I wasted like 30 exalted and like 15 chaos and other orbs on my way through the campaign, when finally I gave it a try to the trade market. And boy with only 1 exalted/item, my own items where a literal joke. My damage skyrocketed, almost 10X.
Mental, good items for reasonable price sold almost instantly, like 10-30 mins. You probably have some unusable bullshit priced for unreal high bit. Every fucking time, and the same lovely excuses some one playing more they have it better, FU
Great video! I think we do not understand the extent how bad the auction hause without additional friction would be - what Jonathan said - the expensive items would be astranomically more expensive then they currently are and cheap items and mid items super cheap, so you would have a huge gap between those items and it will trivialize game even more, in my opinion. Gold does seem to be the lubricant that possibly would reduce or eliminate that problem so will be interesting when that happens!
What if they made the costs to use the AH high, it would be a good gold sink, and perhaps even currency costs. Having listing the item cost Exalted Orb or reduce 10% after sale. This would be difficult to have 1 divine orb and reduction of 10% so it would be listed for let’s say 1 div +20 ex and then take the 20 ex as tax. Or the buyer always needs to pay extra orbs from a lower tier currency.
Everything that YOU want don't move them an inch. GGG is like that for past 10 years. Do they what they want. Sometimes they make you amazed, and you could never have thought it can happen because they don't do the stuff YOU want. But when it's bad, it's REALLY bad. Like metamorphosis bad.
Taking care of the bots with a gold fee seems like a very good idea, just make the gold income exponential meaning that only player doing hard content should be able to trade near limitless While bots that arn't suppose to go above act 10 should get an amount of gold that is meaningless for trading
Now everything costs 100 times more and you wont be able to afford anything its gonna be just like runescape filled with flipping they need to put large gold fees in every trade of they make it instant
@@MrRafagigapr Flipping is already done without an auction house... Look at the margins in currency exchange.Hold Alt and hover over available offers and you see people selling thousands of items 5-7 ex over and buying for 5-7 ex under. For stash tabs, you find something buy it for X amount, then put it a stash tab worth more than X amount. As long as there is trade, there will be flipping.
@@MrRafagigaprYou are wrong. More supply since the extra beaurocracy is gone. Demand will be saturated, then it will go down relative to demand. Then prices will drop. The only ones benefiting from the current system are bots that live off the beaurocracy's logic and high prices, and top level players that have the knowledge and time to grind the league. Oh! I forgot GGG, more playtime means more engagement means more time to buy tabs and skins means Tencent is happy :)
@@blackofthekin No. First of all the frustration people want to be gone will still be there. You will be clicking to buy listings aaaand they're already gone. Over and over. With instant buyout you'll be even more inclined to always find the very best item for your currency since it appears to be only one click away. Thus the best items in every class/context will become very expensive and everything below that won't sell so it gets very cheap. Ultimately widening the gap between good (high time invest) and bad (low time invest) players. Where the bad player can't seem to buy OR sell anything unless it's underpriced by accident and all the trading happens between the good players. Exactly like they said years ago. They know what they're talking about. It's amazing how people come up with all the imaginary reasons for why they're not doing it when they've clearly laid out the fundamental issue several times already.
That's my poison Flameblast Pathfinder build, super fun and pretty out of the meta which is my preference! Here's the overview I put together: th-cam.com/video/eMea5G_DKLc/w-d-xo.html
"we want an open online economy where players can trade their items so we balance the game around this item access, but trading is way too efficient at skipping through game progression so we don't want players to trade items."
The current trade action in POE 2 is completely unacceptable to me. I refuse to use it. We need this ability and it should be in game and not forced to leave the game. It’s just game stopping for me.
There is already an unlimited trading. An auction house is only a QUALITY OF LIFE improvement, nothing more. Defending not to have it is unreasonable. Either disable trading or make it easier.
I mean we kinda get the auction house via external website right now, it's just not automated. Most of people just want automated trading so you can still buy/sell stuff without even need to be in-game. Also automated trading eliminated the scam problem where people just switch out the item with less desireable stats in the last minute.
The gold fee is a HORRIBLE idea. I have hundreds of millions of gold coins on my bot accounts, I’m sure Jackie Chan and his bot brothers all have an untold sum. I could see several ways to abuse that, so that unless you’re Belton and can craft some crazy item, the bots are going to have every item under the sun.
in conclusion: GGG doesn't really want trade in the game but the overwhelming sentiment from the community peer pressures them to have in the game anyway so they intentionally make it bad to discourage trading. that's what i got from reading between the lines.
I dislike the current trading system, it removes most of the grind. And I also dislike that they don't have a decent crafting system in the game. So we are forced to trade for upgrades for our gear.
It's impressive how far GGG was ready to go to not include AH in their game. They're lucky that they got so many loyal fans who would play their game even with this bad trading system.
Trade friction is good but there definitely needs to be an auction house. Could use a premium ticket system to facilitate trades for example each player is limited to producing 5 premium tickets a day. Premium tickets would be used to trade All Yellow items and High value unique items. How would you get a premium ticket? Relatively easy running T10-T15 maps on map completion. This would limit the amount of trades that bots are able to preform and high quantity market manipulation. Currency and low value uniques and or blue or base items could still use the gold fee system this encourages people to use their currency before reaching early end game (t10 maps). Limiting premium tickets should be done by account so players are unable to bypass this limit with multiple characters. This could even be reduced down to 1-2 tickets per day which would still be healthy for the game and players only trading valuable items that the player needs. Additionally each ticket would only last 7 days and expire 24hrs after being used to list the item. 1 Ticket to list 1 Ticket to buy this prevents hoarding tickets and encourages that the people trading are actually playing the game.
As a dad gamer, F your trade friction. Give me an auction house and let my stash empty out while I'm working so I can play the game and not leave my map 5 times to sell things
I would definitely accept the old console trade board over the current system. Something like the currency exchange would be perfect. Third party site that requires a PhD to find what you are looking for is just dumb AF.
Just use the last epoch system. Make players play to gain whatever token currency to allow trading. If people would have to actually play in order to gain the ability to sell or buy another item, you're limiting the trade.
Instant buyouts is the way to go 100%. It'll solve the issue of both people not replying and the new one of those morons listing an item for X and then asking 5X when you whisper them. It cant come fast enough. Farming and crafting strategies will naturally adjust around the new paradigm.
There absolutely needs to be friction in trading. The inclusion of a gold tax in the game is the easiest way to limit people (and bots) ability to infinitely trade -- they are already doing this on a very limited scale on the currency exchange. I like the idea that every divine worth of trade requires a 1,000,000 gold fee.
I believe that social aspect is the most important pillar of mmo games. PoE has one of the best communities across all mmos(and i've seen a lot), and part of that is also social interaction via manual trading(take at least "thanks for trading" reply ppl send each other after trade transaction). Make it automatic, soulless like AH in wow - and ppl would less interact with each other, reducing social element of the game. Though it will be more convenient for sure, and also more convenient for market abusers(they will not go anywhere while you have ANY trading system).
Do you believe in trade friction or do you think you would be burnt out too fast if trade was made simpler?
Easier trade = I can build more characters in a league (I had one of every ascendency up to maps in Kalguur, up from the usual 4 to 6 from previous leagues). But if someone is a 'one and done' kind of player, they'll probably be done faster... So I understand GGG's hesitation. I do think they should add more gold sinks (beyond respecs) though as I see some players build up a lot of it. Or maybe it just needs a rebalance so it always feels like a limited resource.
(I'm one of the people in trade league who plays in an SSF manner, usually only dealing with currency exchange, so the current system from Kalguur/EA PoE2 works well for me.)
I get burnt out trying to buy items or having to leave maps to sell
Trade friction is good. An ingame auction house would lead to bigger problems than the current, manual, trading method.
Ingame auction house:
- Massive advantage for people seeking to manipulate the market (instant trading -> no time loss compared to manual trading)
- Automated buyout-snipe bots will definitely become a thing, coded to insta-buy items with certain stats at certain prices
- Loss of "chat spam" protection for people accidentally underpricing an item (getting spammed is a good "alert" that something's wrong)
- The rich get richer -> way richer, due to the above mentioned advantages of instantaneous ingame trading
- The poor stay poor, people with little time to play the game won't benefit from the ingame auction house (people running automation will buy cheap items instantly before these players can even find or buy them)
- Beginners won't have an easier time trading than right now, because they'd still need to fine-tune their searches to get items that actually benefit their builds / to understand how to search for items and how to "price check"
- Depending on how GGG implements the auction house: Shitstorm regarding paid tabs exploding in scale. Even if they do it like the currency market with a dedicated "stash" system (which I doubt, as that would ruin them financially if tabs for trade cease to be a thing), people with many bought tabs would benefit way more from the ingame auction house by being able to refill their stock quickly (big backlog of stash space)
- Ingame auction house is a direct loss of quality of life for a portion of the PC playerbase (no longer able to see active searches on a second monitor, unable to see item alerts without opening the ingame auction house menu (or even worse, having to return to the hideout to access it)
- Debatable: People who never traded before will still be overwhelmed by trading due to PoE's inherent item complexity and will thus still trade only very little or not at all, while people who've been trading a lot in the past might get burned out even quicker OR give up in frustration as good deals get sniped instantly by bots
Trade friction is good. An ingame auction house would lead to bigger problems than the current, manual, trading method (imo).
Ingame auction house:
- Massive advantage for people seeking to manipulate the market (instant trading -> no time loss compared to manual trading)
- Automated buyout-snipe bots will definitely become a thing, coded to insta-buy items with certain stats at certain prices unless the gold fees are very high, but 1) that could have a negative impact on trading overall (having to farm lots of gold to trade), and 2) that'd benefit experienced players even more than before, as they're usually able to farm the most effectively
- Loss of "chat spam" protection for people accidentally underpricing an item (getting spammed is a good "alert" that something's wrong)
- The rich get richer -> way richer, due to the above mentioned advantages of instantaneous ingame trading
- The poor stay poor, people with little time to play the game won't benefit from the ingame auction house (people running automation will buy cheap items instantly before these players can even find or buy them)
- Beginners won't have an easier time trading than right now, because they'd still need to fine-tune their searches to get items that actually benefit their builds / to understand how to search for items and how to "price check"
- Depending on how GGG implements the auction house: Shitstorm regarding paid tabs exploding in scale. Even if they do it like the currency market with a dedicated "stash" system (which I doubt, as that would ruin them financially if tabs for trade cease to be a thing), people with many bought tabs would benefit way more from the ingame auction house by being able to refill their stock quickly (big backlog of stash space)
- Ingame auction house is a direct loss of quality of life for a portion of the PC playerbase (no longer able to see active searches on a second monitor, unable to see item alerts without opening the ingame auction house menu (or even worse, having to return to the hideout to access it)
- Debatable: People who never traded before will still be overwhelmed by trading due to PoE's inherent item complexity and will thus still trade only very little or not at all, while people who've been trading a lot in the past might get burned out even quicker OR give up in frustration as good deals get sniped instantly by bots
(Please delete the comment if it shows up duplicated - it keeps getting auto-deleted on my end whenever I try to post it)
I'd argue that trade friction is good. An ingame auction house would lead to bigger problems than the current, manual, trading method (imo).
Ingame auction house:
1) Massive advantage for people seeking to manipulate the market (instant trading -> no time loss compared to manual trading)
- Automated buyout-snipe bots will definitely become a thing, coded to insta-buy items with certain stats at certain prices unless the gold fees are very high, but a) that could have a negative impact on trading overall (having to farm lots of gold to trade), and b) that'd benefit experienced players even more than before, as they're usually able to farm the most effectively
2) Loss of "chat spam" protection for people accidentally underpricing an item (getting spammed is a good "alert" that something's wrong)
3) The rich get richer -> way richer, due to the above mentioned advantages of instantaneous ingame trading
4) The poor stay poor, people with little time to play the game won't benefit from the ingame auction house (people running automation will buy cheap items instantly before these players can even find or buy them)
5) Beginners won't have an easier time trading than right now, because they'd still need to fine-tune their searches to get items that actually benefit their builds / to understand how to search for items and how to "price check"
6) Depending on how GGG implements the auction house: Shitstorm regarding paid tabs exploding in scale. Even if they do it like the currency market with a dedicated "stash" system (which I doubt, as that would ruin them financially if tabs for trade cease to be a thing), people with many bought tabs would benefit way more from the ingame auction house by being able to refill their stock quickly (big backlog of stash space)
7) Ingame auction house is a direct loss of quality of life for a portion of the PC playerbase (no longer able to see active searches on a second monitor, unable to see item alerts without opening the ingame auction house menu (or even worse, having to return to the hideout to access it)
8) Debatable: People who never traded before will still be overwhelmed by trading due to PoE's inherent item complexity and will thus still trade only very little or not at all, while people who've been trading a lot in the past might get burned out even quicker OR give up in frustration as good deals get sniped instantly by bots
Surprised you didn’t go over the trade market from the console version. It has flaws but works surprisingly well. On top of the obsolete whisper x hideout trade feature, players can also search for items ingame and put an offer. You get a notification and either approve or reject, right away. And also works while you’re offline so you can put an offer, log out and if it gets accepted you just collect the item next time you log in. It’s simple but it does the job so well without the hassle of whispering several people and having to go to their hideout. If they improved 1. The ingame search which is really bad at the moment, 2. Allowed us to accept/reject offers without having to leave the map and 3. Added an auto-accept feature eg. Accept offers equal or 1 divine less than asked, I’m sure it would be widely used. It’s not bad at all imo.
Great solution! Would also set a trade limit per week to combat automation
A lot of people forget console has a trade market and it surprises me that GGG seems to do as well. They should have developed it further and put it into PoE 2 in my opinion, but who knows maybe they are doing that for release.
The console auction is just literally all the quality of life features that PC players yearn for and none of the advantages of actually having a proper search engine. This is done entirely on purpose, it's supposed to be much harder to search for things, that's the trade-off for having instant trade. An ARPG is all about finding and crafting items, a hyper-efficient trading option just completely negates all of that. Now the current trading solution already does negate some of those core tenets of ARPG's, but GGG's point is that it all could become worse than it already is. GGG has to go for an in-between solution because they want both the perceived value of items to be high, as in "I could trade this awesome item to my friends if I wanted to, I'm not gonna, but I could, so therefore people are more jealous of my item, which in turn makes me value my item more" and GGG also wants progression and balance to not be 100% tied to whatever a trade transaction could offer.
I should really make my own video or write my own essay on the topic because people just do not understand this issue at a fundamental level. A hyper efficient economy isn't conducive for fun gameplay unless trading is literally meant to be the game by itself. In real life you want to minimize the amount of barriers between you and success, but in a video game those barriers are *LITERALLY* the game! The opposition IS the game! At some point making things easier is just becomes making less "game" to actually enjoy overcoming. If there is no point in looking at the ground because the first chaos orb lets you buy a 95% best in slot item and the actual best in slot item costs one million chaos then what is the point in actually playing the game?
@@HackFo If there is no point in looking at the ground because the first chaos orb lets you buy a 95% best in slot item and the actual best in slot item costs one million chaos then what is the point in actually playing the game?
Nice made up scenario.
@@HackFobrilliantly said, GGG have actually said something similar to this before I believe, they don't really hide this fact if I'm correct? Or at the very least they've said botting is the reason for so much friction in trading, but I believe that THIS is also a VERY good reason that they know all too well. Your comment is A+
they made the "we dont want the highest level items in the game available through an auction house" argument COMPLETELY invalid when they created an external website and essentially made all the best items available through trade only. so, yes, give me a god damn auction house already
Seems to me the solution would be to make trading more difficult then not less.
@@spyfire242 like how console peolple have to trade difficult?
@@spyfire242atm they like their compromise of 'okay trade is the best items but massive friction to disintensivise using it'
no lol
Missing the point entirely. No wonder developers don't pose game design dilemmas to the public.
Poe's trading has always been horrible, most of us SSF players play SSF solely because of it (not for an extra challenge or whatever, just to not have to deal with it)
I play it to get better and learn as well. Ill play trade to have fun and the rerun in SSF to improve and get better with mechanics
Maybe I'm just too smooth-brained to understand their position but everything they're worried about is already happening, even without an auction house.
-Items are already being pricefixed
-The best items are already astronomically priced
-Bots are already using and manipulating the market
And another thing I'm confused with is them being worried about their bottom line. Wouldn't an auction house reward people who has more stash tabs? People would literally buy more stash tabs just so they can have more items posted on the market which means higher bottom line. Am I missing something here?
You can't actually price fix with an actual buyout AH
@@adriangodoy4610 Ofc you can. People have done that for example in WoW for like 20 years. They buy everything and resell for more. Everytime someone puts up something for cheaper they just buy it and resell.
@@adriangodoy4610 Ah would make price fixing much easier to do. 1. Have a bot auto scan the AH and insta buyout a niche of the market 2. Put those things back up for however much more. You are now the kingpin of said market. With the trade website you can at least whisper the person and get picked by the guy you whispered. you have no chance with an AH.
if smth is already happening - it doesn't mean that it can't be worse.
Rn its made manually, if AH would be the thing. Its gona be automated to hell. You cant beat this problem but at least you can slow down the process and reset economy once in a while. AH will make market insufferable in minutes of new league. RN you can purposely ignore bots and only sell shit to legit users, you can understand that the guy is flipper by looking into his acc. Ah completely destroy this opportunity, to make trade better needed changes from community side, have some basic etiquette of trading. GGG can simulate this via making trade regulations. Like limited trades per day. You would think twice before engaging in trade.
Having to be online all the time to sell items is crazy, literally my biggest complain about poe
Imagine waking up and collecting all the currency of the items you sold overnight, or just don't log in for a few days and boom, tons of items sold
yea its so dumb that people tried to say poe was better just because no AH. everyone used the damn websites and guides told you it was pretty much mandatory to trade to progress. exp loss on death making the game even more punishing meant perfect build and perfect gear was a MUST
Agreed
And if you do that 99% of items won't even sell and when you come back to the game you ll have your big return of 5 exalt from selling 200 items.
Imagine having to be online, and then having to actually TRADE like in a fucking runescape game just to get ONE ITEM.
The braindead community actually agrees with them 😂😂😂😂😂
Except that's not what would happen if an AH like that existed. First, if players can post auctions and logoff then the amount of available items for sale would increase by an order of magnitude causing massive item inflation and devaluation. Second, more items means more pricing competition, which means that if you logged off then everyone online is just going to undercut whatever price you had with in a few minutes to compete for the sale. Almost nothing you posted will sell 15-30mins after you logged off and what did sell you'd get a fraction of the value you'd have gotten without an AH.
An AH completely changes the economics of a game. In PoE we've always had a seller's market because the limits of P2P trade keeps inflation lower and the friction/opportunity cost (leaving maps) gets priced into items to incentivize the seller to actually trade creating a price floor. An AH would flip it into a buyer's market where the supply side is flooded by persistent always available instant supply that crashes the value.
People who've thought about this beyond just the convenience factor of trading know an AH in PoE would likely turn out very bad.
Great video!
Let's be honest, easy trade has existed for a long time, it's just archaic and annoying by today's standards. Therefore, the argument that 'easy trade' is bad is blatantly false, a lie. He doesn't want to make trading feel like P2W due to premium stash tabs, and he cares about perception and how people view the game. Since the trade site can be seen as a '3rd party thing,, it creates the illusion that premium stash tabs aren't P2W. The game needs a good trading feature, period. Just look at the currency exchange, it has added so much quality of life and more balanced currency values, it is universally appreciated. This 'friction' nonsense across multiple features needs to go if they want to improve the game. It would be even better if SSF and trade league had different balancing approaches. SSF shouldn't be a 'challenge mode', it's just a different way to play.
there are good economic reasons. your availability and willingness to make a trade is THE control mechanism for supply, in lieu of real world logistics.
if your time/opportunities are no longer impacted by trading then suddenly not only are more people engaging with the market but they're now listing items they wouldn't have been willing to spend time trading before. so now there's like 50x more items available and they're diluting the value of items you're bringing in. those 500 essences you spent all day farming are worth very little because the items they could be used to create has to compete against the massively increased supply and dwindling relative demand for med grade items.
then economic mobility is significantly reduced as the only way to penetrate the next layer of the economy is with a jackpot drop, and most players are resigned to 2nd hand clothing in the charity shops and will never be able to afford diamonds, because they have nothing to offer that isn't already available.
PoE2 is obviously not complete rn and they have new problems they have to solve, like no longer being able to reroll item bases and it bottlenecking the utilization (and thus the trade value) of certain currencies.
but like, GGG would have to conceive of a completely new economic design that touches upon every part of the game and I understand why they're unwilling to do that. because PoE1's itemization, economy, progression etc. scales so well.
@kennethnoisewater4423 This impact is even evident by the currency exchange. The currency exchange made scarab trading much much easier to do so a lot of things that are exchanged on that market devalued. Catalysts dropped massively in price compared to just a few leagues ago due to how easy it is to just buy ultimatum scarabs in bulk and speed farm them. Scarabs themselves are devalued with only a specific few retaining a large price anymore AND even some things are MORE expensive on the "QOL" exchange due to the easy access. You can actually buy things in bulk cheaper on the trade site.,
@kennethnoisewater4423 I don't think this concern about people dumping everything into a dump tab is true for many reasons, one of them being the fact that active traders already do that. Maybe the issue would be with very cheap items that are normally thrown away, but there are natural solutions for that. You could limit the number of items listed per player (it's already a thing due to premium stash tabs), make gold useful for once by adding a fee to all sales and pushing players to grind, or create an entirely new untradable currency token that is required to list an item, and so on. That is not the concern at all; there are many solutions. The developers are either not interested in making something worse than a website because it takes development time, or, as I mentioned, a native trading system bound to the cash shop could easily make the game look bad to new players, and that’s something they will not compromise. At the end of the day, they also care about profit. You can already freely trade essences in the currency exchange by the way.
Not only would it fix the having to be online all the time to sell stuff, it also solves the price fixing issue that many valuable item have
It is a MUST for us to have an Auction House or Similar system. 99.99% of the players DISPISE the interaction between other fellow players. It is social yes, but, it's AWFUL (Afks, bots, price fixers, people that wouldn't invite you to honor a 1 alteration worth of a trade, busy playing the game). No Doubt that Chris Wilson had a fine vision back then but it is not suitable for the today/future, in the other hand, Jonathan + Neon seemed to adapt with the timeline. Again, Chris is one of the main pillars of the game and the Studio, but man, some of his archaic ideas had to be put down and dismissed immediately.
No
Yes we fkin need one
No thanks, I like the current system, I just want it in-game, not on a website.
@@sigmaprojects what exactly do you like about it? 😅
@@FinalLightNL Last night i Had a Interactions with a Player who searched a Item for days and i gave it to him. We Had a small Talk about it and it was kind nice.
Good video! Interesting to see the history of the community vs. GGG on this topic. Coming from Diablo 2, the current trade system seems amazing, but I do wish there was instant transfer of listings in-game. Happy to pay a gold fee for that.
I never sold anything from my stashes. Why? Coz it's super annoying to stop doing what Im doing only to do the trade. On top of that, I used to farm the trials. And I cannot go to trade while I am doing the trials. Seriously that system is so stupid.
I don't understand why some ppl have been so against Auction House. it's much better than the alternative.
Probably because a lot of the people opposed to it are the trade scammers themselves.
I heard once tpb said that if we have an action hose, people wont be selling their items for cheap anymore since they are so scared of mispricing it and getting scammed because of that
The best thing ggg could've done would be balancing the game around ssf, and not adding an auction house
I would say it's just a lack of economic understanding
True , most players habe 0 knowledge why a
Procurement brings me way back. I don't miss that time at all. Not sure if I want an auction house even though I hate trading. Currency exchange is perfect but items are complex. I like the power of the website. Trading itself should be better though, without leaving a map for example.
Idk the only way I can see trade being better while still having good friction would be if they let us create a shop in our HO that way you still have to physically go to the person to actually trade but they don't have to be here.
I'm tired of dealing with people and whispering for hours and hours to just be ignored. Just give me a damn AH so I can buy what i want and call it a day, waste my time dealing with people
Those are mostly price fixers you're whispering to i guess. For me the trading experience was the worst as a first time poe2 player because I had to whisper about 50 people just to get a bad rolled unique item which was overpriced.
This exactly. And also tired of being "at the ready" to immediately respond to potential purchases.
Its actually so easy to fix - leave everything as it is and just implement trigger on current buy whisper to automatically complete trade
That's it 🤷♂️
If you have a set price when you list it should be able to inta buy it without meeting. It says when you list something if you want it negotiable.
Incredible video, commenting to help boost it. Good job.
Its a testament to the quality of the game, that it can survive NOT having an auction house.
To answer your last question, I agree with parts of both sides. Limiting trade has it's benefits, and some kind of solution that prevents rampant market shifts is usually a good thing. That said, the current system exhibits a complete lack of respect for players' time, forcing us to sit around waiting for someone to "get around to us", which is incredibly frustrating. I don't mind being required to invest time and effort to earn gold to make a purchase, but forlornly sending out messages into the void hoping for a response is just unacceptable. Requiring players to have to drop what they're doing to make the trade, especially if you're in the middle of something that's not easy to just drop out of, is unacceptable.
So You want fricktion but without the fricktion part?
@shethek1733 Gold is the friction part. They are wanting it to switch to a different type of friction. One friction makes you go outside the game and wait doing nothing. While the other makes you play the game to get gold. To me having player doing the more fun thing for the friction makes more sense.
You nailed it. Requiring the seller to be online is too tedious. It hinders low level trading as well, at some point people just can't be bothered to drop what they're doing for a 5/10c request. An auction house, or at least a trade inbox so the seller can get back to clients later would be nice
@@richardmenz3257 How do you make gold the friction for gear when gear has subjective value depending on the build and the point of progression of a character? You can't. So instead you have to either 1. make the gold transaction so high in price on ALL gear that its prohibitive to ever sell low end to mid tier gear or 2. It isn't actually ever friction and may as well not be there.
@@Deminese2 You don't understand. In this scenario gold does not function as a price tool, but as a additional fee for each transaction you make. So if you want to sell/buy a lot of items, you will need additional resource (gold) to do that, regardless of currency amount you have.
Auction house is desperately needed
You will NEVER get an in game auction house, the currency exchange was their compromise. People pay IRL money for hideout cosmetics they want people to see. Additionally, the website adds a layer of difficulty that dissuades people from trading. It's not huge, but every single extra step someone has to take to do something, the less people will use it.
The only way an auction house can work if it's like Guild Wars. Where gold and currency matters. Guild Wars has been around for years and buying an item for 10 gold is still a heavy choice. It would require a complete design rework of loot and currency
@@SuperLifestream Nah
Very cool video. The research you put into this is impressive. Well done.
Console trade board was the best way to do it and they need that in the next update immediately
I'm a console only player and this indeed seem best. Looking forward how they will tax it for instant buyout instead.
I've heard it's not that good to use if you want to find anything specific though. Like comparing to the website options.
hence, what they wanted for "friction". Technically, it functions like how you do search on your own stash, click on the highlighted item, then offer the price and seller either accept or decline.
@@ArnoldsKtmoh you won’t find anything very specific.
Theirs one trick I’d use where I’d find an item on the website, say a pair of boots. Now on console you can filter by the base type so find that specific base of boots. Now you type in the name of the item you found on website (the prefix and suffix name). Now on the console board it will highlight based off that search but you could scroll through 100’s of items or more depending on the base trying to find that one highlight item.
You still always had to use the website to at least get an idea of price. Say you wanted a exotic and it goes for one chaos orb for mediocre rolls on website, well the market place board might just show pages or ones listed for divines or more for low rolls and theirs no way to filter or rank by price.
Basically they throw a big blob of stuff at you and that’s the friction.
We're talking about an ARPG where we are not even allowed to 'sort' our stash tabs.
Tab affinity exist
can u elaborate i am not sure what you mean with your comment
Tab affinities only exist for things that already have a dedicated stash tab available, which is not nearly enough of the garbage that must be waded through and sorted manually. We've even lost certain affinities, like what happened to the expedition locker? A simple sort function would be trivial to implement and would make organization much easier. Spending time sorting jewels, tablets, crafting bases etc just adds unnecessary tedium. 'Friction' has always been code for adding unnecessary complexity or tedium to what should otherwise be mundane tasks.
Don't act like tab affinity doesn't sort 95% of what you pick up in maps and you don't even have to have the specific tab for it to work your just complaining to complain at this point.
@lowfade556 if you don't know what tab affinities are it's a check box item that allows you to have your items autodrop to that tab based on what kind of item they are.
Thank you for this as someone who didn’t play poe1 but has 350 hrs into poe2 this was my biggest complaint that I wanted an auction house but had no idea about the history behind why we don’t have it this has been very insightful
So, my argument is always to allow instant buyout for anything below 10 ex. This maintains their “friction” for good items, but allows people to actually get people’s low cost items that they are not willing to leave maps for. The downsides: if a player lists an expensive item for 1 ex on accident or from lack of knowledge it’s lost. Another possible fix to this is also to place up a trade yes/no pop up somewhere not annoying so the seller has to click it. This popup would need to be hidden when /dnd is active for fear of getting you killed. This solves the previous problem because if you are absolutely spammed with trades you know you made a mistake
Great video mate!
those early days clips always very nostalgic
The trade system PoE has used has always been the worst of both worlds. The game is balanced around trade, requires trade to progress unless you play insane number of hours and is so frustrating that you hate the entire system. Any choice they made would be better than the one they went with.
I self limit and just play SSF with the currency exchange. Craft my own gear, swap or give away things to friends I either don't need or would be good for their build(s). Game gets quite a bit deeper like that to be honest.
Great video!!! I love the deep dive documentary type videos! More please!
Could make a merchant trial where u must complete it to unlock a limited auctionhouse where u start with 1 slot to either request an item at a price or put an item up for a set price, complete higher trials get more auction slots.
Would feel so good to unlock it.
That's why Last Epoch solution is so brilliant. They are the ones that truly advanced ARPG's into modern era of having both trade and SSF experience viable and fun.
I wish GGG will recognize that SSF and trade leagues exists for that purpose and make adjustments in order to make both fun. Especially that LE showed that each league (SSF and trade) can have some kind of progression system which rewards you the longer you play the league.
LE SSF league is pathetic and one of many things in that game that were just pandering. If you enjoy SSF play it. Asking for base mf is like asking for base PDR in HC.
That's what sadden me the most, appart from the new vision they have for the combat system that fall flat once in end game, and a somewhat boring atlas mapping change, they did not innovate on a single topic. Nothing new for crafting, for trading, nothing really new in term of active skill and passive tree. It's almost indentical to PoE1 with minor adjustment and less content.
It's an EA, it's the perfect time to test radical new idea.
both season they duped the shit out of everything on LE and fucked the market and devs couldnt do shit about it. you are just jerking off to a lie
@@secsenigel3316 what kind of bozo take is this, so youre saying SSF shouldn't have better drop rates? Do you even know what youre talking about? Some people really just need to yap nonsense.
@@AdrianDWolfe like i said it's like saying "so you think HC shouldn't have better survivability? when you die you die so why should it be the same difficulty as SC?". you want the challenge of playing without trade but whooa no not that much of a challenge plz change game for me. stop crying and play the game or better yet, play single player offline and stop trying to force developers to make a safe space for you
When I put stuff in premium tab, I feel annoyed that someone can interrupt me with whispers and I have to keep a look into it. It generates anxiousness and annoyance and I do not want to log in to prevent that.
Same for me. Just the thought of it is so annoying that I just stopped playing.
You know... you can just make it NOT public
Your annoyed at your own choice to put things up for sale 😂😂😂😂
I don't want an auction house, i just want there to be a way to trade more easily such that we don't have to whisper a ton of people in hopes someone actually takes the time to trade. That being said, i don't want things to get to a point where it's always the best option to trade. I've found the game so much more fun after playing ssf for a few leagues and actually taking the time to learn and craft my own gear. Mindlessly farming for currency suddenly becomes enjoyable when you know you're going to use all of your alterations and chaos and exalts on stuff. And when you finally hit the rolls you want it's probably a better feeling than dropping a crazy good unique.
POE 2 has no crafting
I really like your video's so far, and I hope many people will see this little pearl of information of the trading debacle over the years.
Lovely insights, I only knew what I have seen since 2018.
Good video, grats on your work, keep em coming!
GGG has such a stupid mindset about "friction" in trading. Can someone please ask Jonathan what EXACTLY he means with friction? Like he should describe that shit in details please.
basically to stop or slow progression in real time. its essentially timegating, but they want to be special snowflakes and not do what every other massively multiplayer persistent online game does: dungeon cooldowns.
Gold as a method of friction would be enough, right? I cannot trade all day without farming maps and getting some gold. But GGG wants to deliberately waste my time is a huge red flag to me.
@ every massively multiplayer persistant online game wants to waste your time, however
@@SokaMagic No it would not because I ask you. How do you price a gold tax on a pair of boots? You're not listing the boots for 500m gold you're listing it for divines. So how do you appropriately gold tax the 100 divine boots and the 1 ex boots? You can't. You can only put a blanket very gigantic tax to trade any gear or it does nothing there is no inbetween due to the insane variables of gear. If you say gold tax it based off its listed orb value that will directly affect how people trade with currency and would interfere with the market which GGG is vehemently against.
Yeah I know. Of course, it makes sense that they want us to play nonstop. But the whole process should be fun and not feel like a chore. Sometimes poe2 is more stressful than real jobs. That's why I stopped playing a week ago. The map layouts are so shit for endgame. You constantly have to backtrack and it feels awful. BTW never played poe1 but those map layouts from poe1 look so much more fun than the maps in poe2.
I actually really like how selling and buying works in poe2. I'm used to just going on the AH to get whatever i need and it's a nice change of pace trying to find gear that's good and having to check now and then for upgrades. As a new poe player i hope they never change it. It gives the game alot of charm
Holy shiet so many memories 😂 throwing your items on the ground in mud flats ,those times will never come back
please make automatic trades
I remember playing Lineage 2 running around at Giran square looking at all the player shops, an obviously flawed system but it had charm.
I remember MU online. Players open vendor shops and buy from them 🎉
@d9xd425 Never played MU online but it sounds similar.
Mabinogi also had a system like that. It had an auction house the rich people could usje but for the most part it was setting up shops in game.
Mannn. Ragnarok blacksmith/merchant shop browsing in prontera. Good times
Full on team instant buy out. Current system is beyond archaic.
I was fine with there being no auction house until I learnt the game is balanced around trade. Instead of restricting players to third-party websites and recently the official trade site give us a true auction house without the needless hassle the current system comes with, or remove those OOG options and make trading a purely in-game feature. (with the current ways to advertise in-game just being spamming chat channels I reckon this would be a horrible solution)
For the love of god... create an auctionhouse... i am so fed up with people not answering whispers etc.And the "interaction" part is stupid too.. like.. you do not exchange one word except "ty!" ususally.
Depends. In PoE1 I'd had someone offer to email me pictures of their 'step-sister' because they claimed to be an orb or two short...
You get to see the other persons hideout though, when sometimes they spend IRL money to show it off by buying cosmetics for it. It's not going to happen
i love hearing GGG talk about why they need trade friction. its as though they believe that not having an instant buyout/auction house is limiting the player in some way.
news flash, it isn't. we still get any item we want when we want it, it just becomes this immensely terrible and frustrating experience now, instead of a streamlined one.
the way we have trade now we're still not limited, except for the ridiculous factors like people not answering, price fixers, etc. giving us an instant buyout or direct auction house option will not change the fact that we can get whatever item/character power we want. the limiting factor remains what it should be, the cost in currency instead of the cost in our mental stability.
GGG is very out of touch with this whole conversation because they are not even considering this. they still think their arguments for trade fiction hold water.
You happy if one item is 50 div more expensive than it should be because some bot buys it every time it goes up cheaper?
Like some meta item.
Using gold as a limiting factor to prevent market manipulation is exactly what's needed.
Gold is the limiting factor in the currency exchange, for example.
Gold is the only thing stops me from flipping currencies into 50+ divine an evening.
I'd do this because it's efficient not because it's fun.
Right now I can do the same thing with quivers or wands.
Once you have enough capitol you can just price everyone out for profit.
@@ChecksMagee "You happy if one item is 50 div more expensive than it should be because some bot buys it every time it goes up cheaper?"
exactly. and the rest of your comment answers this. it happens already. the difference is it would be instant vs not.
bots will do bot things regardless. so GGG should address the bot situation and not tailor an entire mechanic in the game around them, allegedly, which doesn't change the situation at all anyway.
Add a resale counter and cooldown to items. Every time an item is bought it can't be resold for x hours(24?). Every time that resale counter goes up, the trade cooldown goes up by x or doubles. Pla,ers using the
Items they buy to use wont care. Bots sit on items for days until they can be resold, choking their stash. Its an option. Maybe not a good one.
As long as there is no real crafting, prices will always spiral out of control because there is no other realistic way to get a specific item except for trading. Crafting limits the amount of currency invested to get specific affixes and thus, you would not buy an item for 1000 exhalts if you can make it yourself for the currency equivalent of 200 exhalts. Unless you really want that 1 more life on that gear minmaxing and for those players prices are irrelevant anyway
@junk3996 @bcpksn I really like the idea of making crafting more viable. I would love that, but then I digress to the balancing of crafting.
I just hope they use the beta test to test or try some things.
I think we all come from the same place. I want an auction house, I just don't want the game to "be" the auction house. I want to buy, craft, and find gear. Not just one of those options.
I certainly don't want to be spending playtime at Alva flipping currency or items because it's a better money maker than playing the game.
@@bcpksn Not a bad idea honestly
SETTLERS of Kalguur now has a new meaning
Oh my god, the Kripp nostalgia
Awesome video with great detailed information on the history of trading in POE. I just started playing in POE 2 so I didn't know anything. It seems that we had go a long way and the current stage of trading is 10 times better than how it used to be. For me, I like things the way it is. I agree with the developers that making trade a bit difficult is more beneficial for the game.
For me an auction house can't be here fast enough. You waste so much time trying to find an item, then when you do you message said person only to be waiting for quite a few minutes. Meanwhile the person who is running maps, trials etc has to drop whatever to complete a trade
I agree. I dont leave what I'm doing unless I feel it's worth it. So my low priced items sometimes dont move.
The official trading website is good enough but an auction house would fix the main issues which are players not answering to trade requests and scams
I get their point though, having at least some friction makes sense
Good Vid, Well done!
I can't help but compare this with warframe:
They literally limit the amount of trades you can make per day depending on your level, with some minimum account level required to even trade at all which is a non-issue for a starting player (as long as you have a good early-game acts, which PoE2 now has).
With a bit of tweaking for the way PoE does stuff (currency can be always traded, only gear has limits, maybe tie it to item level or rarity, maybe you can trade earlier in league if your account already could trade at a given level before or maybe not! to force people into a kind of ssf early in league until they finish a bit of acts).
With some generous limits at the higher level, they could have instant buyouts, great search, automated auction houses and still not completely open the flood gates to bots.
And yes, while 'syndicates' will always find a way (boost new accounts through acts, which increases time/money lost for the syndicate in case of bans) this seems like a decent price to pay for a comfortable trading system
Personally I like the lack of an auction house in POE1. It creates community all of the friends I made in poe1 where through trades. Had a lot of cool interactions. But in poe2 it’s a clusterfuck. But I think that’s because poe1 had a dedicated hardcore fan base. Where as poe2 is filled with bots and casuals. But the idea of missing out on seeing peoples hideouts having them see mine and chit chatting to one another during our trades makes me sad. Instant buyouts makes it feel more like a solo game with an NPC that sells anything you could possibly need, instead of meeting real who made something really cool thanking them for their hard work and crafting skills and possibly making a friend. Tons of times I’d trade with someone who had a high tear crafted item and they’d explain to me how they made it and we’d become friends and they’d walk me through how the crafting mechanic worked. And then when we got online we show each other cool items we made. Instant buyouts means that’s gone. Now in po2 there isn’t really the same crafting so that specific example would never happen cause we all know how to spam exalts. But still the human online feel of the game will vanish. Personally you take the community out of it and I’ll lose interest fast. I need interactions with other real people to feel like the grind is worth it, if it’s just a solo game it starts to feel like a lonely waste of time.
I think the fundamental issue with trade now is that when a *new* players gets scammed because of "trade friction" (IE it sucks) they simply decide that they don't want to bother with trading anymore.
There's already a skill gap for trade league players. The friction doesn't stop the blasters, they're more willing to put up with the shitty trading. They will do it and the more casual players just won't.
Trading just instantly makes me lose all interest in ground loot. As soon as I do that, I become immensely bored and only start to view the games as ex/hour, nowadays div/hour. Go SSF and never turn back. Balance around SSF as well. Trade is a self defeating, unbalancing force.
Disagree tbh
That’s how Poe is, farming currency, always has been like that.
Poe 1 is already viewed as div/hour game
Trading makes games objectively worse once the economy breaks from bots and RMT. Right after resets trade is better than SSF, but after it breaks SSF is better than trade.
Unless you are RMT''ing. Anyone who says it isn't is RMT'ing. Adding an auction house just gives an additional tool for fluid automation for bots and RMT'ers which breaks the economy faster after a fresh league, which decreases the amount of time trade is fun. They won't ever add it in.
if the loot on the ground was actually good then I would agree. However, I have not once made a build improvement from picking anything up.
Inability to trade offline is one of the biggest turnoff in poe games
A wandering merchant NPC should appear in towns, allowing players to interact with it. The idea is endgame players give unique items to the wandering merchant in the hideout, limited to only one vendor tab of items. The wandering merchant appears randomly in towns or randomly during the campaign. If another player purchases from the wandering merchant, all the players who gave the unique item to the wandering merchant should receive a currency reward. The concept is similar to the unique vendor map, however it is funded by actual players.
As players reach the endgame, single Exalted Orb trades become inconvenient, leading many to avoid them. However, if they had a wandering merchant where they could list up to one vendor tab of unique items, it would provide a convenient way to offload some gear and provides new players with a steady resource of unique items to reach the endgame.
GGG has said that unique items are "build enabling", and with so many unique items left on the ground it would be interesting to see what new players would do with them.
They would beat the campaign and then replace them like everyone else
a merchant that sells unique would make them not so unique. This also doesnt solve the trade problem. just creates a new one.
So Poe2 is my first time playing the franchise.
I’m lv 86 and I’ve pretty much learned the ins and outs of how gear works.
What I would like to see, is a standardized currency put ingame that can be used for trade.
Warframe does this very well with platinum.
Trading for Divs is a NIGHTMARE, because you actually have to farm them first, and they are unbearably rare.
I know it’s apart of the grind to keep you playing…but scalping is way too rampant in chat, where one guy is selling a macerate piece of gear for 40divs, then some other guy is selling a far better piece for just 10 divs.
It sucks the life out of wanting to even interact with trade, but because of how the game drags unless you get better gear, and better gear is hidden in difficult content, and you need that gear to play difficult content….you have no choice but to trade.
And auction house would work ONLY if GGG set particular prices to each mod on gear, with higher and lower % of mods influencing price, as well as a ‘finders fee’ for players to atleast get something more.
That’s a lot typed, but a grand exchange would greatly improved new user experiences
I think a trade system that is automated, auction house style, needs the friction from something like gold, and the friction needs to be high enough to deter people and bots from abusing it. Or in other words, the game itself should be arbitraging the currencies. You can do this by setting trade limits to daily or weekly transactions, increasing transaction fees for repeated flipping, and creating a higher barrier of entry for people who would rather not play the game itself, but only trade. For instance, an account can increase its trade limits with more KYC. You already have KYC with buying premium tabs. This could help deter abuse and bots.
Whether you fall on the side of frictionless trading or not, the biggest pain point for either system is the issue of botting, scamming, price fixing, and RMT (real-money trading). While I do believe that a significant portion of this issue is overblown or mistakenly categorized (e.g., someone carelessly throws a 5-divine item into a 1-divine dump tab, and it gets mistaken for price fixing), it is undoubtedly felt by the community. Setting aside the fact that early access is plagued by duping and stagnation due to the lack of meaningful currency sinks that naturally combat inflation, the economy suffers most from botting. Botting is the driving factor behind the rising tide of inflation, dishonest trade listings, and exponentially multiplies the friction of trading beyond what I would imagine even Chris Wilson would have deemed acceptable. GGG needs to implement stronger countermeasures against botting before they can address the demand for an auction house.
Yes definitely. I was thinking that new accounts should have trade redtricitons or something like daily/weekly/monthly limits. This can be achieved numerous ways like, length of account history, amount spent on supporter packs or mtx etc. This way GGG knows their customer, the barrier for abuse is higher, and every tom dick and harry isnt trying to flip items. The price flipping and manipulation hurt the game, and shouldnt be so easy for bots. The more you trade the harder your margins should get in order to coerce players to play, not arbitrage
Last epoch already solved this problem. Dont like trade? use the ssf faction. Like trade? use the merchant faction. Sure the systems arent perfect but they get much closer to solving the problem than what poe 2 is doing.
Ggg will fundamentally never make ssf have any buffs compared to non ssf, even if you cannot migrate your chars. It goes against their philosophy
Man, Chris was the poe GOAT.
thank god now poe2 is really perfect!!! I hate having to whisper like 30 people only to have to settle for less stats because no one wants to invite.
Ima new player and I have yet to have a bad experience trading and I like the trading system it makes me feel like I’m engaging with the community
Its all about playtime metrics, if trade has an option for instant buyout or a 24hr bidding process, this means the hideput warriors will no longer spend 12hrs afk but maybe 1/4 that time and actually play the game, which will add more server load, more cost & less playtime metrics
My main issue with the current trading system is that I get way less value out of my own drops and builds. I CANT SELL. When somebody is online 2-3 hours max a day, and his focus is on playing the game, good luck to sell something. Crafting is WAY WAY more expensive than buying if u CANT SELL. I wasted like 30 exalted and like 15 chaos and other orbs on my way through the campaign, when finally I gave it a try to the trade market. And boy with only 1 exalted/item, my own items where a literal joke. My damage skyrocketed, almost 10X.
Don't think you can sell it with 10 hours online either, I think poe2 "crafting" only aims for real end game gears, otherwise it worhts
Mental, good items for reasonable price sold almost instantly, like 10-30 mins. You probably have some unusable bullshit priced for unreal high bit. Every fucking time, and the same lovely excuses some one playing more they have it better, FU
To actually craft you need Omen which are a couple div each. Without them you just throw random stuff on your gear.
This was awesome to listen to while waiting to board my flight. Also F the trade website 😂 just make it in game UI and I’ll be satisfied
Great video! I think we do not understand the extent how bad the auction hause without additional friction would be - what Jonathan said - the expensive items would be astranomically more expensive then they currently are and cheap items and mid items super cheap, so you would have a huge gap between those items and it will trivialize game even more, in my opinion.
Gold does seem to be the lubricant that possibly would reduce or eliminate that problem so will be interesting when that happens!
What if they made the costs to use the AH high, it would be a good gold sink, and perhaps even currency costs. Having listing the item cost Exalted Orb or reduce 10% after sale. This would be difficult to have 1 divine orb and reduction of 10% so it would be listed for let’s say 1 div +20 ex and then take the 20 ex as tax. Or the buyer always needs to pay extra orbs from a lower tier currency.
I’ve got it! Ears from Player Kills should be the currency instead of gold.
Only for Sergeant Andrew Scott
I think instant trade can be mixed with friction, for example: gold cost, cooldowns, limits, reduced mf duration, etc
Everything that YOU want don't move them an inch. GGG is like that for past 10 years. Do they what they want. Sometimes they make you amazed, and you could never have thought it can happen because they don't do the stuff YOU want. But when it's bad, it's REALLY bad. Like metamorphosis bad.
Currency trading in the early years was done through public parties named with the currencies offered and the exchange rate
Taking care of the bots with a gold fee seems like a very good idea, just make the gold income exponential meaning that only player doing hard content should be able to trade near limitless
While bots that arn't suppose to go above act 10 should get an amount of gold that is meaningless for trading
GGG only makes improvements in times of competition, release of D4 and other games, improvements in other games.
Post item at a price, someone buys it at that price. Done. So easy.
Now everything costs 100 times more and you wont be able to afford anything its gonna be just like runescape filled with flipping they need to put large gold fees in every trade of they make it instant
@@MrRafagigapr Flipping is already done without an auction house... Look at the margins in currency exchange.Hold Alt and hover over available offers and you see people selling thousands of items 5-7 ex over and buying for 5-7 ex under.
For stash tabs, you find something buy it for X amount, then put it a stash tab worth more than X amount.
As long as there is trade, there will be flipping.
@@MrRafagigaprcan you please explain in details why the prices would go up to 100x?
@@MrRafagigaprYou are wrong. More supply since the extra beaurocracy is gone. Demand will be saturated, then it will go down relative to demand. Then prices will drop. The only ones benefiting from the current system are bots that live off the beaurocracy's logic and high prices, and top level players that have the knowledge and time to grind the league. Oh! I forgot GGG, more playtime means more engagement means more time to buy tabs and skins means Tencent is happy :)
@@blackofthekin No.
First of all the frustration people want to be gone will still be there. You will be clicking to buy listings aaaand they're already gone. Over and over. With instant buyout you'll be even more inclined to always find the very best item for your currency since it appears to be only one click away. Thus the best items in every class/context will become very expensive and everything below that won't sell so it gets very cheap. Ultimately widening the gap between good (high time invest) and bad (low time invest) players. Where the bad player can't seem to buy OR sell anything unless it's underpriced by accident and all the trading happens between the good players. Exactly like they said years ago.
They know what they're talking about.
It's amazing how people come up with all the imaginary reasons for why they're not doing it when they've clearly laid out the fundamental issue several times already.
i truly hate having no buy now function, i hate dealing with the constant non responses.
What skill are you using around 27:00? That constant radius blast
That's my poison Flameblast Pathfinder build, super fun and pretty out of the meta which is my preference!
Here's the overview I put together: th-cam.com/video/eMea5G_DKLc/w-d-xo.html
To make trade competitive with crafting they should only allow trading of dropped items that have not had any crafting done on them.
"we want an open online economy where players can trade their items so we balance the game around this item access, but trading is way too efficient at skipping through game progression so we don't want players to trade items."
The current trade action in POE 2 is completely unacceptable to me. I refuse to use it. We need this ability and it should be in game and not forced to leave the game. It’s just game stopping for me.
If we can have an auction house like Black Desert online, that would be amazing.
There is already an unlimited trading. An auction house is only a QUALITY OF LIFE improvement, nothing more. Defending not to have it is unreasonable. Either disable trading or make it easier.
I mean we kinda get the auction house via external website right now, it's just not automated. Most of people just want automated trading so you can still buy/sell stuff without even need to be in-game. Also automated trading eliminated the scam problem where people just switch out the item with less desireable stats in the last minute.
Very good video!!!
Auction house is key. This buying system is ridiculous yes.
The gold fee is a HORRIBLE idea.
I have hundreds of millions of gold coins on my bot accounts, I’m sure Jackie Chan and his bot brothers all have an untold sum.
I could see several ways to abuse that, so that unless you’re Belton and can craft some crazy item, the bots are going to have every item under the sun.
in conclusion: GGG doesn't really want trade in the game but the overwhelming sentiment from the community peer pressures them to have in the game anyway so they intentionally make it bad to discourage trading.
that's what i got from reading between the lines.
Scamming and not responding are the biggest reasons for an Auction House
I dislike the current trading system, it removes most of the grind.
And I also dislike that they don't have a decent crafting system in the game.
So we are forced to trade for upgrades for our gear.
It's impressive how far GGG was ready to go to not include AH in their game. They're lucky that they got so many loyal fans who would play their game even with this bad trading system.
Just give us an action house already! Everything at this point is just inconvinient
just let us do what we want to do, the community will find a way to fix it
Imagine spending time on making the auction house instead of fixing gameplay problems and finishing the game.
Trade friction is good but there definitely needs to be an auction house. Could use a premium ticket system to facilitate trades for example each player is limited to producing 5 premium tickets a day. Premium tickets would be used to trade All Yellow items and High value unique items. How would you get a premium ticket? Relatively easy running T10-T15 maps on map completion. This would limit the amount of trades that bots are able to preform and high quantity market manipulation. Currency and low value uniques and or blue or base items could still use the gold fee system this encourages people to use their currency before reaching early end game (t10 maps). Limiting premium tickets should be done by account so players are unable to bypass this limit with multiple characters. This could even be reduced down to 1-2 tickets per day which would still be healthy for the game and players only trading valuable items that the player needs. Additionally each ticket would only last 7 days and expire 24hrs after being used to list the item. 1 Ticket to list 1 Ticket to buy this prevents hoarding tickets and encourages that the people trading are actually playing the game.
As a dad gamer, F your trade friction. Give me an auction house and let my stash empty out while I'm working so I can play the game and not leave my map 5 times to sell things
I would definitely accept the old console trade board over the current system. Something like the currency exchange would be perfect. Third party site that requires a PhD to find what you are looking for is just dumb AF.
Just use the last epoch system. Make players play to gain whatever token currency to allow trading. If people would have to actually play in order to gain the ability to sell or buy another item, you're limiting the trade.
Instant buyouts is the way to go 100%. It'll solve the issue of both people not replying and the new one of those morons listing an item for X and then asking 5X when you whisper them. It cant come fast enough. Farming and crafting strategies will naturally adjust around the new paradigm.
There absolutely needs to be friction in trading. The inclusion of a gold tax in the game is the easiest way to limit people (and bots) ability to infinitely trade -- they are already doing this on a very limited scale on the currency exchange. I like the idea that every divine worth of trade requires a 1,000,000 gold fee.
If crafting wasn’t so ridiculous to learn, I wouldn’t care about trading at all. Also if currency was more of a frequent drop
I believe that social aspect is the most important pillar of mmo games. PoE has one of the best communities across all mmos(and i've seen a lot), and part of that is also social interaction via manual trading(take at least "thanks for trading" reply ppl send each other after trade transaction). Make it automatic, soulless like AH in wow - and ppl would less interact with each other, reducing social element of the game. Though it will be more convenient for sure, and also more convenient for market abusers(they will not go anywhere while you have ANY trading system).