Werewolf: the Apocalypse - W5 Thoughts
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2021
- Due to overwhelming demand in the poll I posted recently, I decided to sit down and compose a scripts of my thoughts on Werewolf: the Apocalypse, what I perceived to be some of its weaker elements, and some ideas I would throw on the wall like some manner of noodle to see if they stuck or not.
In the end, we have litte insight into the process of how W5 is being made, and while I'm looking forward to it, realistically I think it might take a long time before we see its release. There is a delicate balance between pleasing older fans and bringing in new people and I'm not jealous of the fine folks who are trying to do this.
Keep in mind that this video is an opinion piece. I'm sure I'm either exaggerating or understating certain elements of the plot of Werewolf, and I sadly lack encyclopedic knowledge of the Splat. That being said, I think I've made some sound points. Regardless, don't worry if you don't agree with me, I have no power over W5's development! ;)
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This took a LONG time to make!
Please keep comments and feedback relevant to the topic. I'm aware that I've made some simplified descriptions of aspects of Werewolf lore, and I don't intend to step on anyone's enjoyment when playing this game. I would love to hear your thoughts on what you would do different!
I think many of the criticism you have is valid, I love the system and setting but in some areas its feel pretty ham fisted. The reoccurring theme is tragedy and loss from shortsightedness. Its honestly amazing werewolves still exist in World of Darkness when they fight not only themselves but mages and vampires too.
In W5 they will have to retcon some things with history, I cant see any way around it. Writers certainly have their work cut out for them.
I can see them using a rage system similar to what they did in V5 as well. Not sire how i feel about it as proprietary dice always seemed limiting to me.
Nice video though, well thought out and reasoned.
@Nick D i was referring to V5 and the black and red dice they use with symbols instead of numbers. I can see something like this happen to W5 for a similar mechanic.
Your ideas to change werewolf I dislike almost everything except the spirits hanging out with Garu. Most of your ideas sound like what Disney would do if they bought WoD and they want to make perfect werewolf princesses. Which works for Old fairytale stories but not for WoD the main point of werewolf is there are tons of massive problems and the solutions are complicated and requires fixing at the bottom and tops. Also the wyrm is already heavily in a werewolf it's why werewolves can travel into the umbra.
A lot of your fixes are more GM advice which isn't bad but it's bad over all game advice.
@@TheMapleTable I disagree on rewriting the lore they just need to expand it in the added times. Werewolves making enemies on all side is pretty much the same thing most groups do it's world of darkness. Plus Werewolves are the alpha preditor to most other supernaturals so it makes sense they would get enemies on all sides. Redoing the lore instead of expanding and adding is going to tick off fans. It's like the fact Gets might be getting removed from the tribes.
W:tA is my favorite game and has been for almost 30 years now. Sure, I was initially attracted by the cool powers and the ability to tear apart a main battle tank in seconds. As time went on, I began to fall in love with the other aspects of the game. The Umbra, dealing with spirits, atonement for past sins and even the politics of the differing factions of the Garou Nation. I came to the realization some years ago that the game isn't actually about despair. It's about HOPE. Hope that your sacrifices or your valiant last stand will make a difference against seemingly overwhelming and impossible odds. You probably won't live to see the difference or the victory, but that doesn't matter because you will still live on in the stories and sagas of your people.
1000% this!
insane you sound exactly like my storyteller
in fact he told my group almost the exact same thing a while back HAHA
Imagine a game that deconstructs the narrative of werewolf, that some werewolves, fera or even fomori start to realise that the triad is basically using them as pawns in a cosmic game that there is no right" way to live or do good and then bond together (reluctanly) to create a true balance fighting Gaia´s, wyrms or weaver´s servants, I mean Blizzard started to deconstruct the idea of light=good, darkness=bad so why not?
Sorry if doesn´t sounds well I just started on wod I´m more into chronicles of darkness
I’d play it
@@ThePrimogen I already have some ideas for instance, independent of the tribe some garou had some kind of insight" that the triad actually doesn´t care for balance or well being just power and doesn´t matter who wins it would be a crapsack world so they try to find balance in creative ways for instance instead of destroying a factory and all workers they buy it or infiltrate and change the infraestructure, instead of destroying a power plant they change the source, requiring some brute force sometimes, same with the fera, also I like the idea of normal people turning werewolves that could represent that gaia is loosing control and becoming mad as well and our protagonist could guide them.
In the case of fomori some could regain humanity and are trying to keep in control trying to get revenge on Pentex and forging and unconfortable alliance with the fera and garou while looking fora way to cure itself and other fomori, I personally would like the idea of a twisted human trying to regain contact with it´s familly or trying to not kill himself after regaining his humanity
It's crazy how many people don't look at WW as a HEAVY political game, like real politics as capitalism burning the Earth or the inner tribal relationship.
I mean Bone Gnawers, along with Brujah, are literally attributed to Socialism and Communism movements of the late 19th early 20th centuries. Plus the biggest way that tribes fight each other is political maneuvering. Folks are mistaken if they think the Wyrmcomers just came in and stomped on the native garou to take their caerns. Like, it happened but it was mostly through making deals and concessions. Binding the Stormeater and immediately going back on the promises to Older and especially Younger Brother is a good example of this.
Bless you, Chris! You said everything I've been thinking for so long and I really hope W5 takes a lot of these points under consideration. And thanks for letting me read the script early, you're the best ❤
For Real tho! I have always loved Werewolf, but the setting and confines for making my character have always been really hard to wrap my mind around and know what to do so my character can be complex
Just as an FYI, there's an interesting parallel to the triad of the Wyld/Weaver/Wyrm in the real world in the form of the Hindu Trimurti, with Brahma as the creator, Vishnu as the preserver and Shiva as the destroyer. Interestingly, Brahma worship isn't common, and isn't accorded the same importance as worship of Vishnu or Shiva - you can see the obvious parallel to the Wyld being emphasised less, with the more significant foci being the Weaver and the Wyrm in WtA. This isn't, of course, to say that the Wyld/Weaver/Wyrm are exact analogues of Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva, but just to note the structural similarity. My recollection of WtA is *very* old - I last played well over 20 years ago - so this may have been explicit in the books but, in case it wasn't I was interested in noting the similarity.
Thanks for the heads up, I wasn't aware of this and I think that's a great parallel!
The By Night Studio version of the LARP that came out a while ago created faction in the Garou society like you mentioned. There was a traditionalist side led by the Silver Fangs with Fianna, the Get, Red Tallons, and Wendigo following their banner. In opposition to them there was a faction looking to try new things. The new faction was led by the Shadow Lords with Glass Walkers, Uktena, Children of Gia, and the Stargazers. The idea was neat, but I felt ultimately they were too heavy handed with it. They tried to have these two factions as embattled as the Sabbat and the Camarilla.
I think at its core that's a great idea that could be tinkered with. I would definitely like to see the Shadow Lords going "Well, we worked in the Silver Fang's shadows for too long, time to try our approach to things."
this is really cool !!
So you finally understand us Black Spiral Dancers.
Not all of us are aiming for the end of Gaia just for the Wyrm.
We just need a HARD RESET to level the playing field.
The world is too old and is long overdue for a new Ice Age.
Ah,the "Blinkers"..
In the Book of the Wyrm, they go into the Wyld spirits that have given themselves to the Wyrm and turned over their creative energy to the Great Enemy.
The Fiana stories of the first Fomori, created from Kinfolk, definitely could be seen as the Wyrm attempting to create Fera
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I should really write this down more coherently, but let's take it from the top.
Honestly, I don't see Justin taking a safe road with W5. His credits on Werewolf is mostly Wyld West and Forsaken, as well as writing
the Black Dog Game Factory.
So.
I really hope they've got someone smart doing the tribes connected to the indigenous people of Turtle Island. Because, there's a dire need to keep focus on that especially right now.
probablygame that suffers the most from that problem, which, if you're an old hat, is part of the charm and part of why you love it. To new people? Not as easy to love.
We got the Eco-War, the Spiritualism, the coming-of-age story, the Reactionary Elements of the Garou Nation.
Hell, some of the most basic stuff, the struggle to win against the forces that are ruining our planet, is trapped in a disregard
by a lot of people as being about being furry captain planet.
It's hard to fix that sort of stuff once it's out there, but I think W5 would be helped a lot by having a sort of Activist experiences placed in there.
I think WtA as a concept owes a lot to the X-Men, but just as the X-Men, it helps when the writers have experience with activism, which might also give a lot of explaination why you're born into the struggle.
In Regards to your ideas.
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The Wyld: You're not wrong, but I'm not sure how to correct the image of it.
The origin of the Triat is not only Druidic in nature, but also originates in the Trimurti present in several of the Hinduisms. Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver and Shiva the Destroyer. As you can see, someone crossed a wire somewhere and did not allow Creation to give Shape.
Getting rid of the Wyld, or claiming "unreliable narrator" might be a solution, but it also forgets that the metaphysical size of these powers are basically unexplained.
What *is* the Triat? Is it Gaia? Is it above Gaia? If the Wyld is Creation and unbridled generation of existence, then what the hell is going on?
Garou Nation - Yeah, this needs to be challenged. Like, we might need to have a faction of young Garou, who while still disregard the Older Garou, still maintain then ties to their legacy,
confront it and draws power from that narrative, probably reshaping what it means to be for instance, a Fianna. It needs to have happened before.
Humans to Garou Idea: The BNS Studio version of Werewolf the Apocalypse already have that.
It's called The Bite. I am not sure if that was well-liked or not, and as you say, it has a issue with removing the whole coming-of-age and inherited sin aspect of the game.
Patron Spirit: Erh, that is a part of the lore, either as the Chiminage Background or the Personal [REDACTED].
I like the idea, but it has some weird kinks to be sanded off. A lot of Theurge's have certain Allied Spirits.
Tribes: You're not entirely wrong. Being a Dane, I have the same feelings on the Get, however, it's not impossible to explore it.
I've come to seen the tribes as a way to have a cultural rebellion, detatching yourself from mortal society by either retaining old traditions and values, or developing new counter-cultures to support your fight.
Where Vampire is... an examination of capitalism and other ideologies, but often just end up being a story about Capitalism shifting hands, Werewolf has more in the vein of removing yourself from the capitalist mindset,
and finding a different way of living.
Apocalypse - Isn't that basically the understanding the Ragnarok "myth"? After the end of the world, it shall be reborn?
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There's a few things you wisely did not touch with a ten foot pole, which also needs to be addressed in W5.
- Ableism in the shape of the Garou-Garou offspring and how they're treated within the Garou Society.
- Supremacist-thought, and it's fun friend, eugenics.
- Terrorism, fanticism and what it does to people. Because, whoa, we're not kidding ourselves when we need to address the elephant in the room with the Garou having a lot in common with certain real-world elements.
You're absolutely nailing it and I appreciate this extensive feedback! I agree with you as well that there's parts of what I bring up that would definitely need to be polished severely before being introduced to the game, but I can sign off on pretty much everything you say!
Søren Hjorth what's BNS?
@@WolfBoy-om6dw BNS is By Night Studios, they do the LARP rules now.
I love the angle of having random people become new Garou, it would definitely remove some of the childish ideals the game have from my experience (that where it’s mostly pubescent children turning into murder machines) and agree it would create AMAZING role play moments of this 40-something salary man suddenly be seen as a “cub” and his reaction/rejection of that entire notion. They could even become their own tribe/faction separate of the Garou Nation and their antiquated ideals of cultural heritage! I may very well borrow this idea next I run werewolf!
Not only that, but most new 30-something players don't even want to play with an angsty teen.
I added a concept for this in my setting, and I have seen many people add it as well. It's the 'cocooned wolf' Basically a werewolf that was so civilized and trapped by the weaver in his teens that he never went through the first change. He never raged. But later in life either something just shakes his life hard enough (near death experience? lifestyle change more towards the Wyld?) that his rage is reignited and Bam, 47-year Karen is in blender mode against the manager in the shopping mall
yeah i like that idea!
5th edition seems to take a lot of liberties with the previously written lore
i can see like 40 year old Kinfolk randomly changing as if its Gaia's defence mechanism maybe!
Some good Ideas in there. I'd especially like the spontaneous changes of people passionate about the world and also isolating the Garou more from each other - isolation is something I really liked about Requiem in contrast to Masquerade, for example.
Same as you Prim, I had my issues with werewolf. My main issue was the hopelessness of the setting. From what I've gathered online, there are many more successful ends for players in other WOD games.
I just gotta say I love the transitions between topics the sound effects are great
I strongly agree with a lot of these points, but I feel something either may have been missed or simply isn't clear from what the books tell you. Werewolf is a game about the very nature of good and evil, and buried amidst the garou politics thats an endless cycle of hubris and the incomprehensible lovecraftian esc nature of the triad, is a deeply philosophical game about morality, nature and the simple fact that we abuse our world and have destroyed it. The triad are simply the manifestations of gaia turning what we have made into its own weapons against us. I highly doubt a single comment on this post could truly convey the depth of this game, but its something that I've thought about for many years as I've played World of Darkbess games, time abd time again coming back to the same issues you have.
Werewolf is a game about futility, the garou are a cult of hubris douche nozzles, but when forced to either reject them or join them. The terrors of the night and the slivers of truth the do have makes joining them far easier. I think its when the other fera come into play that it becomes possible to see the truth, that no one side is truly right. The wyrm is driven mad by the weavers attempts to stop its natural destruction, and the wyld fights against the weaver for its lack of change. Its a cycle of never ending trauma that is common place in all things, and that is where most people go wrong. If viewed solely through the lense of "big war, kill wyrm" then yes, the game stagnated on its own foolish ideas years ago, however, the game doesn't stop at just that, and does paint a picture of all sides being truly ignorant to what's really happening. No side truly wants to destroy the other, but no side can see whats causing the other to act as they do. After all, without one, the others can't function. Its a very strong meta commentary on our society as a whole, while also tackling the idea of racism, social segregation, and supremacy. Its a deeply flawed game that wants its flaws to be observed not ignored, because those flaws are the driving heart behind its stories.
I can keep rambling on, but I hope it does bring some points of insight to you or anyone reading this, or maybe I'm wrong and someone will type angry hateful things at me for being a pretensious prick who over analyzed a game about murderous werewolf tree huggers that commit heinous acts of eco-terrorism on everyday people just trying to feed their families. What do I know
Great vid! I feel like the next Werewolf edition has to grapple with the Weaver quite a bit. Modernity won. People like cities and electricity. They like AC units. They binge Netflix. The world is more officially structured then ever. Pollution is real, but folks aren't turning their lights off. Werewolves must deal with the modern age, or Pentex will maintain an overwhelming advantage over them. But can they? They are of nature,but there's just allot less of that then there's ever been. Outcast tribes like Glass Walker and Bone Gnawer are now the only ones with any real chance. The Wyrm is just about the most terrifying villain in fiction. Alone, that would be a big deal. But the Weaver is equally dedicated to a global vision that doesn't include allot of plants or fresh air. Werewolves must adapt. So what form does that take?
I just want a bit more hope in this game. Yes, I know the game line is called "World of Darkness", but I'm not too wild on stories that are so nihilistic you wonder what the point of it all is.
But that's just me.
I feel like it is really showing of the times. When WTA was released it was the height of 90s nihilism. but as time went on and our values and world changed, we no longer have those values or interests. For myself I know its world of darkness and its horror and cruel, etc etc etc. but I'm playing to escape a world that is currently fairly cruel. I want to be the hero, work with heroes, and be able to make a difference. but the current setting of WTA is pretty much 'its all already lost, your efforts mean nothing'. And as pointed out here the system is sort of stuck on itself while we as a society have changed and evolved. So I am really hoping to see something new and more current in the new edition.
@@paynehaynes5418 Totally agree. The games have been might aiming more towards the goth crowd... but I feel like they just shot themselves in the foot a bit.
I don't think I 100% agree with any of your points but its a good video and I do agree with bits of it.
I think my core disagreement with you comes down to *liking* humans not being the centre of the universe and a very different conception of wolf (and other animal) cognition. Which, to be fair, is also very different then the OG writers ideas about both of those things XD.
You are right about the Tribes being bad. The problem comes from it being a very 90s USA game. So all of the Tribes, well the "core" ones at least, are more about USA sub-cultures then any connection to actual native americans or european source cultures. I am working on a rewrite of the Get of Fenris to tie them better into actual Norse and Germanic myth and legend rather then tying them to USA White Supremacy and its appropriation of the same. I might eventually do the same with the Fienna.
I agree that humanity does not have to be the center of the universe, but I fundamentally believe that the more you can relate to the characters you’re playing, the easier it is for many people to explore within that framework. I don’t believe “enlightened” wolves to be anywhere near human ways of thinking either due to their difference in upbringing as well as their sensory input and frame of reference.
I do feel that if the theme you want is to save the planet, if you’re not part human, then humanity may just as well be the two dimensional, faceless mook that needs to be wiped out. Anything else would be unnatural.
I actually love this.
Showing the Flaws and the Goods and what it might actually need.
Thank you for taking your time to make this.
And I'd love to use your ideas in my future games.
I appreciate that! And absolutely feel free to use any and all ideas! That sounds amazing, let me know if you do!
I really want it to be approachable by new players, without completely ostracizing old players and that is a difficult sell and balancing act. I can agree the coming of a new garou but a differently, in lining up with your take on the Wyld, perhaps a fluke of nature or mutation causing it, perhaps they're seen as a new tribe, or maybe they are a unique adaptation occurring due to the dwindling survival of the prior Garou
Thank you for making this video, I agree with a lot of what was discussed here! I have some thoughts.
1. Something you did not bring up but was on my mind was the Garou-born (those born of two Garou, I don't use their current canon name). This is a controversial opinion, but I think the game needs to retcon them out. As in they never existed and are not playable. I am actually in favor of keeping Lupus so long as several adjustments and statements around them are made clear, but the Garou-born are a flaw in the world-building of this setting in my opinion, plus they are rife with ableism as others have pointed out. They are supposed to show what happens when the Garou do not connect with wolves or humans. However as you pointed out, we already have so many examples of why werewolves are isolated from humanity, and we don't need the contrived Garou-born to show that.
2. I absolutely agree with you about where new Garou could come from. I think forcing characters to come from specific family lineages (and there's even a high chance you won't become Garou anyways...) limits player choice when building a character. Not to mention how the setting insists on making the majority of Homid Garou change when they are teenagers, children, really does not sit well with me. This is a game with mature themes, and I don't think children should be playable characters in such a game. And like you said about how a Sire-Childe relationship in vampire is innately personal, Werewolf should do something like that too and I like the idea of someone with this fire in them to change or protect the world getting chosen by Gaia. Basically I want to see Bob the Accountant who is frustrated with the way the world has treated people become a warrior for Gaia, and what that does to him. I want to see how Bob the Accountant accepts or rejects the outdated notions of the Garou.
3. The Garou in general need to have their views challenged much more aggressively. Vampire is a game where you know you are not doing the right thing, that every action you take as a vampire can hurt someone or something you care about. Currently Werewolf does nothing to make the Garou think their current path is wrong. If anything, the setting justifies the Garou's bad decisions and lets them go on with impunity as the world burns around them. I approach the setting from what I consider one of its original themes: confronting the mistakes of the past and trying to do better. Currently, however, I feel that the game is really bad at communicating this theme. If you disobey the Elders, you are at best ostracized and at worst exiled or executed. The players and STs need more incentive and opportunities to tackle one of the intended themes of the game, which is confronting this flawed hierarchical system. Currently the game does not present those hooks or opportunities, so one of its core themes is consistently ignored. So I hope W5 is very clear and very firm in saying that the way the Garou have done things for centuries has, for the most part, been wrong and short-sighted.
That was a novel so I'm gonna end it there but I'm sure there's more I could say :P
All excellent points! Thank you for taking the time to write this! I really appreciate it and I agree with you!
I decided not to bring up the Third Breed because... it's so rough it requires its own video to be honest. But I agree strongly with your sentiments.
The way you put it, seems you want to play Werewolf: The Forsaken. Which is not a bad thing, I'm just saying that the game you want already exists. It's a lot harder to find players to go with it than Apocalypse though
@@rodrigoibaceta3938 I'm not sure where you get that considering only two things from my comment really match with what Forsaken does. You can change these things I suggested and still have plenty of what makes Apocalypse what it is. The core pressures and themes of Forsaken are so different from Apocalypse that merely taking out the Third breed (while keeping Lupus no less) and opening up how werewolves are made won't make it exactly like Forsaken, no matter how much people think otherwise. The other point I mentioned about the Garou needing to challenge their status-quo is also not really a pillar theme of Forsaken. It CAN be if that's what you want your particular chronicle to be about, but it's not the assumed state of the world.
I happen to like both games, but them having *some* similarities to each other does not make them the same game. If that were the case, then they already are the same game given how werewolves have five forms and five auspices and organize into tribes and have fetishes in both games.
@@ThePrimogen Agreed, the Third Breed are a very thorny issue. Glad my ranting resonated with you!
I like to think that the Chronicles of Darkness is the new world after the Wyrm destroyed the old one :)
I kinda think that too i like to think that the true fae of Changeling the lost are the fae that stayed on Arcadia after it closed it's gates and became twisted and childish
The solutiion to me is reduce the size of the plot to balance the 3 forces, to the garou and the other Fera to fight local descentealized unbalances of all 3 forces. Beside that, integrating other Fera will bring more variety and familiarity to the game and players, a similar system as the Ajaba, and The Feral Court in South America would be awesome, we don't have native wolves here. Also some toughts:
- kill of the Red Talons, they are a nuisance
- rebalance the spirits making possible to chose wyrm spirits as patrons
- bring back some Lost tribes, like the White Howlers and the Croatan
- breake that excessive irish influence in the Fianna, even breaking the tribe to represent the continental gaulic descendents
- no wolfborn garou, is just wierd
- focusing in the politics of the sects, creating a big net of sects as a congregation, mixing garou and other Fera
Lots of great pointers! Thank you for taking the time!
@@ThePrimogen thanks. Some of that changes i already use in my games. I killed the Red Talons, by making them sacrifice themselves to bring back the original Wolf Spirit to the world, that with the help of other animal great spirits brought back the Wyld seed in mankind after the great battles that make the Wyrm balanced again, as such now anyone could born a garou or any other Fera, even those not born from kinfolk. And I make the Maned Wolf had their own lost tribe, a lost branch of the Silent Striders, The Guara, the Red Lonners.
Dude! I adore the idea of breaking the Fianna more apart, and twisting them towards being "Stag's Tribe" - They already did that halfway in tribebook Fianna Revised, giving some major camps based of cultural lines in mainland europe. However, there's a strange dichotomy in having "Gaelic" culture as the main connection point, as the Hallstadt-cultures have many different variations, and are perhaps not even really related to the British Pre-Roman population, only adopting alike language through tradenetworks.
The Fianna are a strange kettle of fish to open, and I hope it's dealt with in more detail.
@@Growls Thanks dude. In my game, most having Brazil as location, the Fianna are Galegos/Galician, not Irish.
#CameHereThroughNacaoGarou
xoxos from the Brazilian comunity of World of Darkness.
Although i feel that there are some very important points about the game that you missed, either because it is cited in some obscure place or just because you got better things to do than read all those damned books, your opinion and perception about the changes that should occur are just on point. Indeed there is a huge necessity of mixing things up for the next book and i dearly hope that whoever is working on it take some ontes from this video.
I wish all the best to you my dude. Thanks for making these great videos.
I've struggled with these things in my active chronicle! Thanks.
Happy to help! Thanks for checking it out!
Fantastic video I really like your ideas and the topics you brought up especially the sections on new Garou and the patron spirits p.s the idea of patron spirits being apart of your character reminds me of Geist the sin eaters 2e
I'm glad you enjoy it! I got some Shadow vibes with it too, from Wraith, but more of just a separate way of perceiving the world completely, one which you'd need to balance to be able to function.
Nicely done, Instructor!!! 😊
Thank you! 😃
#CameHereThroughNacaoGarou
I want to preface this by saying I agree with a lot of what you had to say. Hell, you said one solution I've even thought of. But I wanted to say I don't think the Trinity was a problem as that kind of Trinity has existed in many cultures throughout history so I don't think that's a problem, let alone that needs fixing. Also, wolves may be anthropomorphized but at the end of the day we're pulling from many historical anthropomorphisms which is itself part of the reason werewolves are a thing.
That being said, as I said before, I really loved a lot of your solutions. I tried my hand at rites to make new werewolves but that was as a replacement and making it a new rite could add a wonderful conflict. Even better is if we find out that was how the original werewolves were made and it was rediscovered. I think it would also be great if those opposing the existence of tribes were themselves accused of being their own tribe.
Again, this was great and thank you. If you ever do one for Mage I have a LOT of thoughts on that one (it's my favorite game followed by Wraith, though I've liked Werewolf for a long time when a friend explained it to me better)
For me, A werewolf is a human being cursed to live with an uncontrollable, savage side of themselves. The werewolf, as figurative metaphor, is someone dealing with an identity crises of the highest order. W: tA Doesn't address this pretty much at all because of the werewolf gene thing. I also think the apocalypse and Gaia themed setting heavily distracts what the gothic horror of being a werewolf should be like in my mind. I think White Wolf's attempt to subvert the werewolf as a monster, scooped out everything they originally meant to be. Not to mention just the really strange idea they had to put in my head of werewolf boning a normal wolf. it's creepy and not in a good way.
I had a heavy setting redesign in my head, partially inspired by how the Elder Scrolls series handles it's werewolves. There is an unnamed nature god who's sphere is "the hunt" and encourages his followers to triumph over their prey, whatever it may be (good, bad, neutral, so on). Werewolves are his children and the most common way to become a werewolf is to survive an attack with one (not easy to do of course) but it has to be in the form of a survived attack, either by killing or escaping your attacker (this could set up potential stories about trauma and survivors guilt), a werewolf cannot turn another werewolf intentionally. This is a way of proving to the Hunter god that you are worthy of his blessing. You can make a direct plea but this is finicky, you nonetheless have to be chosen by him. There is a prophecy that this god may someday soon bring about the "Bloodmoon" prophecy where all his werewolves will be forced to hunt all life on earth and bring about an apocalypse. So now you, as a player, have to design a character centered around themes of forces beyond your control, which is the core theme for a werewolf anyway. Now the new pacts and politics have to be centered around how individuals deal with their trauma and how they may or may not be able to keep the monster at bay or if it should be kept at all.
This topic is hard for me. Because I'm a VtM fan first and foremost, most things I'd want changed to make WtA more approachable for specifically me would make it feel less like Werewolf to the fans of the splat. I think W5 should refine the themes and mechanics to appeal to current fans and streamline things in the way V5 did to appeal to a fresh audience, even if it means that I might not find it too terribly interesting.
I love your take. I’m excited to see what they do. I played a little over a decade ago and I just started to get back into V5 and now I’m reading lore by the handful. 🤣 Love your vids! 😊👍🏼
Thank you Dustin! That means a lot, I’m glad I can be of assistance!
I absolutely love your New Garou idea, imageine the inner conflict and struggles that would come from hoity toity Purebreed characters who all of a sudden.. omg why is Gaia choosing these random people and imbuing them to be Garou and Fera? Now are you going to try to be dicks about it or embrace what Gaia has done and do the right thing and try to help these people and adapt. And your spirits thing, YES - I've always wanted that and thats why if at all possible, if the ST allows it - I always try to take I forget what background it is - Spirit Heritage and I think there's another one - to try to get a Spirit buddy. But the thought of when they change they merge with a spirit - A+ And basically, I agree with all your proposed changes, they all could be fun and make sense.
Glad you liked my ideas! Thank you for the feedback! 😌
The way I saw the relationship between the Triat (when it was working) was the Wyld provided ideas and concepts, the Weaver worked on the intricacies of how these things would work and function and the Wyrm was the executioner and recycler when the Wyld had another idea and space was needed, but now that the Triat is dysfunctional currently and probably never gonna work again one of my Characters argues that these three beings are no longer fit for their jobs and should be replaced by something/someone else
The Malfas: "The Wyld is irresponsible, flinging chaos in every direction with no regard for stability, the Weaver thirsts for absolute control, it seeks to trap us all in it's suffocating order and the Wyrm is too far gone for it's judgement to be ever trusted again, if I had the power to, I would axe all three of them like an Alpha who's time is up and make way for another"
But this is my head cannon and as far as I've checked not the official way the Triat works, since the Wyld is Clearly stated to have it's power grow when plants and wilderness overrun the area and the Weaver is at it's strongest in urban areas with working powerlines and solid brickwork, to be honest the Wyld and the Weaver seem the most egregious and contradicting on how the system works to me because of those reasons, how were the Triat all equal in the beginning when most of the world was just animals and plants with no civilisation and what caused the Weaver to go AWOL and cause the sundering? To me the Wyld seems like it doesn't do much, The Weaver is the actual bad guy but most just simply go for the Wyrm and the Wyrm should be sympathised with more since it's the one that got fucked in the ass
Here's how I would write it
(following my head cannon on them)
The Wyld is Ideas and Concepts
The Weaver is Form and Function
The Wyrm is Execution and recycling
It's unclear who started the sundering and all three parties are guilty/accused of something
Reality is becoming less stable and stuff like some areas have lost gravity or weird and irregular creatures have started appearing
The gauntlet grows increasingly shut and when it fully closes all life material and spiritual will cease to live
The Wyrm's agents are instead called Unravellers (spirits) and Destroyers (Possessed) and they are literally unmaking all of existence
Banes and Fomori are aligned with neither of the Triat and are more so a symptom of the crumbling cosmos
The war against the Apocalypse is about trying to prevent the total spiralling, collapse or erasure of the world with many factions all arguing on how it should be achieved
that was a long one, gonna leave it of for now since I think I'm starting to hit my comment's limit on words
I do agree in every single point, brilliant analysis!
Here's how I view WtA. Take Captain Planet, the X-Men, new-age spirituality, and the movie 300. Put them in a blender for a few hours, pour it out, and you'll get WtA.
You have a fascinating take on Werewolf, and I can see why you view these things as flaws. It challenges my own view in a lot of ways - for instance, fighting the Apocalypse not just *in* spite of the hopelessness but specifically *to* spite it. When people tell you to give up and you absolutely refuse *just* to piss them off, even though everyone knows you don't stand a chance. Sticking to your beliefs because you know in your very soul what good and evil are, even at the cost of your own survival. I identify with that indignant spark of rebellion, like that which you find in a counterculture movement.
First explain for wolf dude I ever heard!
Thank you !!
I disagree with all of this and am currently gathering the wood for your pyre, you're welcome.
I regret nothing!
I'm with you on your opinion of WtA. Ive always liked the game, but felt like I was missing something. I like a lot of your ideas. I've thought about how I might have changed things if I were in a position to and have tried some in the few WtA games I've STed for.
I once had a werewolf cult surrounding a ancient Metis. This creature had developed a gift that allowed it's bite to cause a form of lycanthopy. Those bitten could change into forms one step removed from their own. Human/glabro for instance.
The other idea i had was to use a mechanic like V5s blood dice. It woul be rage dice and you would lose them instead acquiring them...but what do I know.
Thanks for the video, and if you read this, thanks for humoring me.
Really cool idea! I think you're on to some good stuff!
I think that the moment you start talking about the Garou Nation you have pointed to the nucleous of the game.
All White Wolf games have two words who define the game and their opposite.
In the case of WtA these words are Rage and Nature.
Rage about the state of our world, the state of mind caused because you realize that you should do something about the destruction of the world. You act with Rage, destroying everything arround you just to change something.
The opposite word is peace. With Rage and destruction we can't change the world, we need to create a new world.
And the Garou can't think outside it's Rage, they are made in a time where the problems can be solved with Rage.
Nature is the other word. The perspective of Nature in WtA it's post-humanist and drinks a lot from the native americans tribes. Everything arround you and yourself is Nature, anima mundi. In the words of a medieval cleric "nature is the law of good, how the world works and it's morals laws".
Nature and it's opposite are two brothers united by the same body. Being more "in tune" with nature is just knowing that our perception of the world is made because we interact with our ecosistems. Even if they are made by humans.
Each tribe has a different way to ser the world and how the garou should act.
A Child of Gaia want to change the world preaching about how we need to treat each living kindly.
Red Talons fear the humans, they say to themselves that they were the ultimate predator in land (the Mokele would laught just hearing this) and fear the power of destruction of humans.
The Glass Walker have faith in humanity, they know that humanity can maje loots of damage to Gaia, but also have enough creativity to heal Gaia themselves.
Lot's of thing that you ask and point are good questions, but I think that some of the philosophicals questions that you ask need... another perspective to answer correctly.
And yes, ther's a lack of research with all the tribes things. I'm from Spain and reading Rage across the World was a kick in muy mouth.
I don't know how PoC or non-european players will take some of the tales of the manuals.
Also, totally agree with tour Sept tribe. In fact that's how I play WtA with my friends and works better. The Garou Nation it's something that exists but with no much power.
Great summation, although I would disagree with the Mokole laughing at hearing the Garou consider themselves the ultimate predators. They'd either agree, or wouldn't care. The Mokole aren't there to be the ultimate predator. They are there to remember things for the next world. They're living time capsules cast into the chaos of the Apocalypse. The Mokole embody hope that there will be someone there to listen.
@@PerpetualGM That's the reason they will be laughing. Probable they have seen shit other races have never seen.
Rage across Brazil was so bad it was actually offensive. The Latin American Community actually has a book on suggestions for local games.
@@rodrigoibaceta3938 Please, tell me something about Rage across Brasil. I haven't read it.
P.D. It's not WtA but Iberia by Night it's a mess in his bests moments.
@@BaronElBardo Well, summing up issues are that it just puts LatinAmerica as a poor underdeveloped place of ignorant homogeneous people. It doesn't nearly go into important cultures and it even missplaces some other like Mesoamerican Balam in the Amazonas.
Then again, it's the same story for anything outside the US with WoD.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Werewolf the Forsaken, I got into Forsaken way before I got into Apocalypse and find I like it more but still love WtA, 2nd edition Forsaken is really well put together in my opinion. I know a lot of Old World of Darkness players rejected the new lines but since I started with New World of Darkness (before it was rebranded Chronicles) it maybe why I like both.
I haven’t read it but judging from a lot of comments I definitely think I need to!
The way you talk about the conflict here between werewolves and the modern day sounds incredibly similar to how the struggle against megacorps and capitalism are played out in cyberpunk media. I think the idea that the humans are just being strung along by some old god is pretty bad because it's not like it's in our best interest to polute the world either and the pollution isn't universal. Some guy living in a hut isn't as culpable as a oil ceo but it looks like they are ( also even back then the idea thaf absolutely everyone would be turned off by the idea of a big hulking wolf man is kinda laughable. If a real life werewolf showed up a blew up a pipeline I think alot of people would be down (also furries))
The Wyld is the pure essence of creation, it is very chaotic by its very nature. The Weaver is order, just as you said, it takes the pure creation of the Wyld and weaves it into an orderly form. The Wyrm is entropy, it destroys what the Wyld and the Weaver have made.
You're 100% correct that it doesn't make sense the way they have it structured, my friends and I have been talking/arguing about this since the 90s lol. Its so conflicted in its story and setting that both times we tried to run campaigns 'by the book' back then they collapsed under their own weight after only a few sessions. Not once have I been a part of a W:tA game that didn't fall apart. Which is a shame overall because I absolutely love the whole concept of Werewolves and lycanthropes in general.
On the other side we have had many Vampire (both V:tM and V:tR) and Mage campaigns, and one awesome Mummy campaign.
Should hope be brought to W5? It's something I've been struggling with, because the lack of hope seems so integral to WtA
It should at least be discussed and be a central theme, whether it is the loss of, the absence of, or the return of.
Absolutely. Wolf numbers are on the rise, humanity’s advancements have allowed us to do more with less, species that were on the verge of extinction have been saved. Shit, there are more trees in the US now than when the setters arrived. There is absolutely room for hope to take a place in W5. More Lupus Garou are being born, Pentex is being challenged at every turn both by Garou and humanity. Shit, as much as I am loath to touch V5 lore…do you think for a second that the Second Inquisition wouldn’t turn their full attention on those scumbags when they learn what they do? Of course, the challenge then would be that the Weaver needs to be dealt with.
⚠️ Passionate about the subjects, long read ⚠️
My take on this:
When I want to read about werewolves I go to my
Apocalypse books.
When I want to play a werewolf I go to my Forsaken books.
Apocalypse is an Epic, culminating with the tribe novels the finale of which has an amazing ending in my opinion. The scope of the story really requires many hours of learning about the lore to appreciate.
Right now W²⁰ still stands really well on its own as a complete narrative.
If they continue the story it should be about the Aftermath ( maybe even call it Werewolf: Post-Apocalypse rather than W5) so they can import the elements of Forsaken that gives it a stronger Gameability.
Apocalypse werewolves are my favorite comic book werewolves.
But Forsaken as a narrative is much more grounded in Eat, Fight, Fuck. It's a more intuitive take that makes it easier to introduce to new players.
When you play Vampire,.the driving force of every game is Blood. This gives players an essential primal goal, how they get that blood or how they use their power is up to them.
That hunger & lust is an emotional hook for Both Masquerade and Requiem that anyone can quickly jump into and understand.
Territory is to Forsaken werewolves what Blood is to vampires. Everything always comes back down to Territory. Territorialism is a goal that almost everyone can understand.
Apocalypse has an emotional hook: Rage. But you have to explain cosmology to people just so they can understand their motivation.
Gaia, Weaver, The Wyld & the Wyrm. Each of those aspects is supposed to be a hook, entropy, chaos & order.
But then you have to get into Order trying to control entropy, turning it into corruption which feeds upon the Wyld turning it into chaos as Order enslaves Gaia even as the rot spreads before the final Apocalypse. Which of course is supposed to be the motivator.
I can explain vampires with one word: Hunger.
I can explain Forsaken with one word: Territory.
But just saying Rage for Apocalypse doesn't explain the primary goal of fighting the [ insert whatever stand in evil of the week] here.
The grand cosmology of Apocalypse is more limiting for storytelling.
Forsaken still has cosmology, but even the back story of Pangea, father wolf & Luna is fast and easy to understand and constantly ties into that ultimate goal. You hunt spirits, to hold territory.
Your main enemy isn't trying to corrupt the soul of the Earth. It's the pure gang moving in on your turf.
Setting W⁵ in the Post-Apocalypse instead of trying to reflect current reality would allow Apocalypse to keep its grand narrative in the background while shifting the primary goal to Territory.
About Hunting prey, Surviving the fallout,
Keeping what's yours Yours.
The wolves have more time for making babies- as kinfolk breeding stock becomes the single most valuable resource.
A new age of Imperium looms, the Garou nation no longer bound by the threat of a common enemy.
Which would set up a high stakes dynamic. Letting you bring back elements of the game's cosmology more naturally.
The Triad was yesterday's problem, at least for now.
( Don't want to spoil tribe novels) this could allow for rewrites to bring clarity to a dichotomy you want, since the Wyrm has specific events happen in those tribe novels.
Something along those lines.
This would better retain new players.
Rather than trying to match it to V⁵s timeline, set it ahead of it with Post-Apocalypse.
because nothing about V⁵s timeline really requires much change from Apocalypse.
This would be the most interesting way to progress the story in my opinion. Or at least that's the line of reasoning I would use if I was Pitching it to World of Darkness.
P.s 💚
In homebrew I have a rule about Moonbridges,
🐙ITS A TRAP🐙. Moonbridges are a good vehical for taking the narrative into the Umbra. Which is what I do when I want to divert the story. Moon Bridges in my story are always a risky time for players.
When players interact with this rule it makes them very cautious about how they use this tool.
Because travel time in game does not equate to Narrative time in real life lol.
I don't personally like the idea of Gaia picking random humans to be Garou because of the role heredity plays in the story of the Garou. From how that shapes the culture of individual tribes to the overall tragedy of the fera. Not to mention the ancient lore hooks still being important to the modern setting.
I agree with a vast majority of your points. I personally do not agree with the lore of the Triad and as a player, I find it hard to side with any faction of the Triad. I also found it hard to play an eco-warrior. Especially when you know from the onset that you are on the losing side. And heavens forbid if the storyteller brings in any of the other WoD games and their lores into his/her story. Truthfully, I do not understand how the Garou nation has survived as long as they have. Why haven't the other changing breeds just said, " Fuck it! Let's all get together and wipe these nazis of the face of the Earth." I mean seriously, there's the Gurahl could easily drop a can of woopass on the Garou. But then if you throw in the whole red star "plot" and storm across the Umbra, you now have Demons to deal with..., who just happen to contradict all of the changing breeds lore by their very existence. Garou are NOT mindless beasts. They can, and really should, know how to reason and understand other points of view. So why is it that the few tribes that do try to that are ostracized and shunned by their kin? I understand why a Garou can not be embraced and even agree with it, but why cant a kinfolk be embraced. And in turn, why can't that Garou still be friends with that kinfolk? There's the Silent Striders, why are they so against the mummies? They both hail from the same region of the world and have the same enemies. All in all, Garou seem to be the real bad guys in comparison to the other changing breeds and humanity as a whole. Maybe the Black Spiral Dancers have the right idea. All this being said, I did, do, and will, always love this game. I do hope that it gets updated without losing much of its base story. And I think that too much emphasis has been made on the whole eco-warrior aspect. Maybe in W5, give a little more license to the change itself and its effects on the family and friends of the pup. I like the idea of the guardian spirit being tied to the new werewolf. That alone can push the whole eco-war to the back burner. Hell, that can open up a huge line of communication between tribes and other changing breeds.
i've recently gotten into WTA. I LOVE werewolves more than any supernaturals but I only JUST got a group to play (2nd session was today)
I wouldn't be too excited for major lore overhauls but i suppose V5 has set a precedence for it. admittedly it is very childish but IMO there is something beautiful in making a mean lean killing machine.
that said there are some things I am hoping for W5
1. Something my storyteller does in his modern games is that the Garou in his game have LEARNT to adapt with the times and Glasswalkers have been accepted fully
2. building of number 1, the Garou population is dwindling. Community is more important than prejudice. One idea that I had is incorporating the other Shifters into the garou nation. (i've seen it homebrewed relatively well)
I don't know much about the beast realms lore, but much can be learned from them
3. I love the balancing done in 5th edition, as a system it works. The following mechanics is what I want to see
- I know garou are meant to be more powerful than Vampires, but I do want to see the power level of the Gifts become comparable to vampires. I think this would make a mixed game a lot easier in 5th edition which is what I want
- I want to see Umbra/Penumbra combat and encounters to be easier. Whilst its a little selfish, currently W20 has too many things to spend XP on and not enough XP. so well it will be nice to have a smoother scaling.
- Health Gnosis and Rage being related to Attributes (comparable to how V5 handled Humanity, Health and Willpower )
I don't think they'll ever make a mage game, in a simplified way like vampire. Too much flexibility would be lost, wich would make it loose that mage feel.
Though I would love to have the same level of merits and flaws that all the 20th anniversary stuff had.
I do wish that all WoD books would organise them selves better
I do like theirs a trinity, the Wyld is raw creation that spark, the weaver is the shaper the order, the wyrm is entropy the end. Either of one by them selves is bad. Only the weaver and wyld, is endless growth without end, yes it's orderly but it's suffocating. Wyld and wyrm would be like a constant big bang that's just always restarting. And as of now everything is tipped on to wrym and weaver, theirs no balance (and the wyrm is insane).
I do like the idea of people who were lost kin folk just turing, like gia just sent out ping saying wake up. I do think they need to flush out spirits more. They could also pull a hecate will some of the tribes, to consolidate them a bit.
You've got to check out the Savage Age on Storyteller's Vault!!!
I will give it a shot, thanks for the recommendation!
V5 gives two things to the W5: antediluvians and second inquisition. I suppose if you wanted to clear elders from the game they could have gone off to do battle with the perfect metis and probably left a ritual or two so once the kids or broken could get through they could join the fight...if the fight still goes on. Annother insperation might be considering the previous turnings of the wheel of ages and perhaps make more internal powers with more ability to hide from the view of others. I guess wraith gives us orpheus, risen, greater activity of malfeans, and hope of transcendence, mage might give us tougher bariers? Not sure about the apoclypse events of mage and changeling. I think it might be possible to change wod mortals so there actually less people but no one notices because we hide from each other and by stepping out into different realities we might find ways to bring back people who are seperated. Perhaps the mundane world breaks apart into different worlds which the garou learn to navigate. Modern communications and tech are trouble for garou so there would have to be something done about that at the very least make it a battleground. Uncovery of lore is aaspect of the game that would be different today. Maybe the wyrm won but since it always eats itself the wyrm has changed.
WoD when I started playing in high-school in the 90s was all about the downward spiral. Your character was always going to lose. Vampire lose humanity and become monsters, Hunters go crazy and are squishy, werewolves are super powerful but are fighting the whole world. Pure physical power can't solve the problem but that's the tools they were given. Which is why they keep losing. Additionally I would argue they are part of the problem not the solution. There's a ton of story telling in werewolf which I think you bring up here. All of your points are in my opinion the real antagonist of the werewolfs story line not the combat.
Holy shit, the conviction thing is amazing. It makes a lot of sense.
Now that I've heard everything, I don't disagree with any of your points, but you CANNOT fix WTA, because it's core problems are endemic to the World of Darkness:
1. This is not a game system about BEING a supernatural creature, it's about being a member of a FACTION. Vampire the Masquerade is not about being a KINDRED, it's being a member of the Jyhad struggle and mostly about being in or in opposition to the Camarilla. WTA is not about being a Garou, it's about being a member of the Garou Nation.
2. This is a containment game system. See, with Mass Effect 3 and Legendary Edition, 85-90% of the audience are goody goody Paragons, myself included. Only a sliver of roleplayers want play morally compromised antiheroes or out-and-out villain protagonists. You CANNOT appeal to a larger audience with this game line because the old audience will not accept it and to many roleplayers and nearly everyone I've described World of Darkness play, WoD is for creeps and closet sociopaths. And like most TT people they are enthralled by the tyranny of RAW, which is so bad in every game system I've tried I think I should never have dabbled in TT in the first place.
The real issue in terms of backlash is that most RPers are bound by the tyranny of RAW but if there were clearly defined cases and lore was bifurcated into Lore A (classic) and Lore B (reformed), I think things would be better received. Have two or three lores per section and explain why each is VALID and how to mix and match, then heresy becomes a non-issue.
My only interest in these game systems if from the characters I created or conceptualized in 2011 when I didn't understand this system is designed for people who want to be evil. Also I did a lot of this in my own character and well....it went horribly right.
My Coggie Ragabash is almost a platonic image of your reforms.
1. Late changer, at 25
2. Lost cub
3. Apathetic about the environmental struggle (actually an environmental optimist)
4. Secular, functionally a complete agnostic but she didn't admit that to herself until years later
5. Tribal outsider, and total contempt for for tribes
6. Always believed in fighting for Gaia, even after going Ronin, but never again in the Garou Nation
Amanda never identified as Garou. She's not a werewolf, she is human who turns into a werewolf on the weekends. Being a werewolf is not her, it's a superpower, that's it But truth be told, turning WTA into Masquerade is what I did and it's not a bad concept, because "Garou" are losing their humanity from the shittiness of their faction as much as the vampires. She looked at the Caern and said it wasn't worth defending because the spirits would not allow modern weapons, particularly landmines to be used to create choke points and the Garou refused to train in soldierly discipline. Once she figured out these assholes were about the lifestyle and not really about victory, she fucking left. And even when she was IN, she went running back to the Christianity she had left behind as an exvangelical. She didn't come back to conservative Christianity but Garou theology is so bleak, no spirit could convince her into it because she'd die of Harranno on the spot.
Amanda left because she wanted to live. Amanda left because she believed in working with other splats, including vampires, at least the good ones. Amanda left because the Garou in her Caern were facing WWI levels of attrition and refused to wear armor. Amanda left because she TRIED to create a logistics train and NO ONE was interested. And most importantly, Amanda left because the Garou want to murder all the vampires not because they are all evil, but because they are all tainted and unpure. For someone whose grandparents had to first fight in the Battle of Berlin, then flee East Germany in the late 40s because of another self-righteous tosser who was obsessed with purity, if she cooperated with the Garou Nation, it would dishonor both her Grandparents AND her great grandfather Wehrmacht officer who was tortured and murdered for being part of the Valkerie plot. It would mean Amanda learned NOTHING from history, not even her own family's history. And that Amanda could not bear.
The Garou are LOSERS. By culture, they are a cross between neo-Nazis and Incels. The Garou aren't doomed by the mistakes of their ancestors, they are doomed by their own stupidity, namely the rejection of their own humanity and their self-serving pity parties. But I emphasized AMANDA in the last paragraph because I didn't play a Garou, I played Amanda Miller, a freshly certified teacher from Columbus Ohio, fresh out of grad school with a shiny new masters in History.
All of this is GREAT drama and story, but because WTA is never about being a Garou or even fighting for Gaia, it's about being a member of the Garou Nation. As such the only way she could win was to walk away and being unable to be played. But at that point I was so angry and horrified that I was happy to walk away.
I have seen WTA played differently. When you reject the notion the Garou aren't human, everything opens. Same thing with Vampire. And that is the key problem with both lines: the conceit these characters are not human. I'd never play a lupus Garou, but I would play a talking wolf, but that aside, I have no interest in playing a "monster" versus playing someone with monstrous instincts overlaid on top of their core and persistent humanity.
Oh and by the way, I also did the preferred apocalypse in my personal story of Amanda's sister, Theresa. I played her as an ex-vampire Courier in Fallout New Vegas. But how they got there was the Weaver Ascendant ending concurrent with the Wormwood ending of VtM. In that version Amanda came back in more progressive Septs and was a minor part in getting the Coggies and the Glasswalkers to oppose working with the BSDs. Together with the Etherites and Technocracy they helped keep the work bound until as Time of Judgement put it, the Weaver covered the mirror that is the Umbra, Because....everything that exists in the Umbra is a reflection of the real and a covered reflection ceases to be. So the Weaver by cutting off the Umbra crashed everything in it, including itself.
Thus the term "And the Weaver died screaming." All magic ceased. All metis became human, all the lupus became non-sapient wolves, all magic and technomagic, but not actual technology stopped working. And interestingly enough given it's Fallout, when the regular olde apocalypse came so many billions dying in such a short time created a huge spiritual maelstrom so much so it essentially restarted the Umbra, so by the time of New Vegas a new Umbra is forming, and anyone in the splats who survived to 2077, their supe classes restarted, meaning the sisters ceased being completely magically inert humans and became an ex-vampire and Garou respectively, in Amanda's case a werewolf ghoul (as in the burn victim mutant from Fallout).
It's a FASCINATING take on WTA, and it's the possibilities that ultimately fascinate me, not playing with other people, which is almost always a chore until you find the right group.
Finally, I think the curse is a decent idea BUT you need to change the setting so the Rite of ANger's Purge is readily available OR Curse is temp Rage, not permanent Rage, meaning if an Ahroun burns their rage down to one deliberately by say clawing up a tree or sprint running, they can interact normally with human and non Garou. At least make it a homid level gift that makes the change from permanent Rage to temporary Rage.
Long story short: forget the old World Of Darkness, say hi to Chronicles of Darkness
Came here out of curiosity since I'm now diving into the werewolf section of the channel since the Werewolf 5 book is out, not done with the read through yet but it does seem like from what is mentioned here that there have been at least some lore changes, although I can't really say how extreme they are not knowing the older lore too well.
I mainly wanted to say that I quite like the idea of people being newly chosen by Gaia to become werewolves, kinda surprised that wasn't an idea included in W5 (at least not encountered in my read through yet) since like the book kinda does hammer home that the Garou have fucked their job up, very badly and at basically every opportunity to do so, so I feel like it could make sense. Might do that when I get around to running a game, feel like it could be cool for players to run into garou who didn't know this was happening and don't trust the players.
I have a special place for WtA in my heart; though Im through a through a VtM fan first; it was the first WOD game I had the courage to storyteller for my old D&D group, and it was a huge success. I do hope that W5 brings back this game the way that V5 rekindled my love for VtM
Every time the wolf howls my dogs run outside searching for Black Spiral Dancers.
Not to undermine a wonderful video but it sounds like you should just play Werewolf: The Forsaken.
People keep saying that haha! I think I need to go read those books! Thank you for your kind words :D
I'd play the game you present in this video.
You're not alone in your confusion about certain aspects of Werewolf. In my mage studies, I was just reading about Wyld Mages amongst the Marauders. But the Wyld is the "good" part of the Triat, right?!
I also agree that while the Glass Walkers are looked down upon for being tainted by the Weaver, their tactics seem more effective than the more direct approach of most other Tribes.
There is no "good" part of the Triat. Or there wasn't originally until the Wyrm became entangled by the Weaver and went insane. That is one of the concepts it's important to understand IMO. The Wyld is the part of the Triat that the Garou feel most comfortable with, but...the Wyld doesn't care. It's creation incarnate. Gaia is all three members of the Triat working in unison. The problem is that Gaia is out of balance and the balance needs to be restored somehow.
There needs to be allot of irritation so there are always bad reasons to rage. But there should be good reasons.
Don't call it W5. The Garou ARE NOT the only Fera out there nor are they the only ones concerned with Gaia's wellbeing.
AHADI INTERNATIONAL! :D
My first game and book since 1996 love me some Werewolf the apocalypse. My first love can never walk away from it.
It's kinda weird that a game about mythical creatures that normal people would randomly turn into for a bunch of reasons only lets special people turn into them if a few specific conditions are met.
The Wlyd contributes something important to Gaia and the gGarou. Without the Wlyd there is no evolution.Yes the wyld is bad in it's own way, the Garou champion the wyld really because it's the triate that's works the most with the Garou and represents some of the most positive aspects of Gaia, I.E life, evolution, strength, competition. The Garou don't have to fit the mold, some of the best are those that don't. As for the loose hatred, that only goes so deep, a wise pack will determine how best to go about fighting the enemy.
If Werewolf was like this I might actually play it!
Also can we get rid of delirium? since its just a cheap way getting rid of consequences for transforming in front of humans. also makes it impossible for hunter to kill werewolves unless they are also some kind of supernatural.
And lets stop linking Vampires to the Wyrm. One of the reasons I dislike WTA is because it basically say "sorry all that cain and lillith stuff is wrong, vampires are actually just pawns of something that has nothing to do with VTM".
#cameherethrougarounation
#CameHereThroughNacaoGarou
love you man but the hacky wolf howl on repeat was painful as hell
#CameHereThoughNaçaoGarou
#CameherethourgNaçãoGarou
Why is no one talking about it being out?!
@30:20 Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Gaia is Unbreakable
I want to see male Furies
Those already exist. Nothing stops a male from joining the black furies as long as he is okay with being treated like a second class citizen.
@@Fankas2000 only Metis males
Honestly, I'd rather see them eradicated completely. We have enough entitled misandry bs in the real world.
It’d be neat!
@@josephbeckett2330 also yes
Lupus fan here. Lupus are the keepers of instinct, of being an animal. Garou are not human, and playing a Lupus is a constant reminder of their animal side in a party. Acting like an animal in the table.
I totally agree that the Red Talons are great depictions of wolves, and I totally hate full-homid games which turn into humans with werewolf powers. They are also a huge opportunity to correctly play with rage, getting actually mad. I would not change anything about lupus.
About birth, I wouldn't change it either. It is a game of survival, you do not get to choose what you are. BUT, you can choose to abandon. Offer in your game chances to give up your rage and try to blend into society as one more human, or just embrace the monster and get corrupted by the Wyrm. Maybe a corrupted avatar of Unicorn can do this.
Start with the conviction, but give ample opportunities to lose it.
About the Wyld and the Wyrm I totally agree with you. Maybe the most atrocious apocalypse theme would be for the Garou to discover that the Wyrm and the Wyld are actually both corrupted, and even worse, melding together though to it.
Things I would change...
- The Glass Walkers. I hate them. I ban them if I can. They don't fit at all with the tribalistic, primal and savage game I expect from a Werewolf. Every game I have a Glasswalker in it immediately feels like Vampire the Masquerade in other skin. On the other hand, I am planning on making a Glasswalker who believes humanity is the seed of Gaia (just like every Fera has their own duty), because of the space career and their potential to bring life to other planets in the far future.
- Sense Wyrm and Spirit Talk. The lack of this two abilities being innate to all Garou means that if you don't have them, you are NOT experiencing a huge part of the game. You could argue that all werewolves can interact with spirits, but in-game it actually just pigeonholes the Theurge to be the only one to do so. Sense Wyrm should be innate to all Garou, but the Wyrm should make the Garou roll rage every time it's detected. Being inside a City like the GlassWalkers do needs to be a sacrifice and a desperate action, not seen as an advantage. Bone Gnawers should be enraged and frustrated about the misery around them, not thrive and celebrate it. These two gifts would help the players feel like this.
In other words, I like playing Werewolf the Forsaken in the Apocalypse setting
I would be intrigued if werewolf in WoD we less like shapeshifting superheroes fighting the spiritual evil of the wyrm and more monstrous predators spawned since ancient times by gaia as to undo the weaver's stasis over the world and restore balance, competing with the wyrm that seeks to break free and end the world through its corruption instead. That the emphasis was more on the werewolves' struggle with their rage, which is both the source of their power but also the driver of their alienation from the human society. That they had to both satiate their rage while also keeping it in check to prevent themselves from becoming murdering rampaging monsters hunting humans and the like every full moon or so like during the impergium. Maybe it will be too much personal horror like vampire then but I always felt the werewolves were lacking monstrousness. Those elements are already there to an extent, but the werewolves' cause is still overwhelmingly presented as just even if flawed at times.
Yep, me I love Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Changeling and Wraith. I dont consider Hunter part of the WOD, I think Hunter the reckoning is BS.
Completely agree with Hunter. What is the point of it if they are not normal mortals?
I think WoD should have a 'Mortals' book instead just like nWod.
Also, Mummy? :v
I'm sorry but I really disagree with this and alot of your points sounds just like Forsaken. Not to say that Forsaken is bad, But if these are the things you want then just play Forsaken
What would you do different?
@@ThePrimogen I would just updated it to reflect current events, make some adjustments to the mechanics, give the tribes the respect they disserve, and not make too many radical changes that'll alienate long time fans
I'm worried they will get rid of breeds and change the problematic rules in their culture. As their flaws are something of conflict for good stories and attemps to change the culture. Breeds are just fun I'm fine with changing the name metis I get it's got issues but leave breeds. I am nervous about 5e.
WOD and exalted are linked together, in WOD, the weaver is the strongest, with the Wyrm is getting stronger while the Wyld is the weakest. in Exalted Weaver is the strongest the wyrm is the getting stronger but the wyld is a very strong force on the outskirts of creation which is threatening to engulf everything, Wyld in Exalted is a strong mutating force with teh fair folk being strong enemies threatening to destroy creation
Well, on one hand, Glass Walkers either should gain more power, or be pushed out and having more independent action, it just makes with the time period. With covid, it would be interesting to see how it might be integrated, Did Pentex have some involvement? Or did nature bring about a reckoning. Pollution levels decreased, animals were walking on streets where once there wasn't any animals. Whatever the cause, there can be plenty of stuff there. Had some stuff wondering about how the Avatar might play a role with humans being less spiritual, but honestly, it's kinda too loose of an idea right now
Also, yep, absolutely agree with the "New Garou" idea, makes sense with how desperate times are, as well as bringing a better connection between a normal human, and the Garou. Most of the other WoD games flow with the idea of becoming this monster, it's a concept which brings along themes that make sense to the average person playing the game. If not this, I would toy with the idea of long lost lineages. Children from very normal families suddenly becoming Garou through a monstrous first change, and with no one around him to explain wtf is going on, can bring plenty of material for a character
Red Talons did nothing wrong.
Dude your issue in games. My suggestion is doing low end missions and have there be political issues with disagreements in the caerans. Or have outside werewolves trying to take over the caeran because they accuse your pack of wasting resources or going on pointless missions when you need to be protecting the caeran and gathering strength. My games often have multiple choices as political groups. Glasswalkers I have slowly falling to the weaver but also doing really good work. BGs I also have often using their street connections to find the big pentex heads that killing actually matters. Just some examples. Also wyld is chaos werewolves should strive for balance the over relying on the wild is part of the problem. The weaver wants total control so he will enslave all chaos aka free will. Wrym needs to be heald not destroyed these are important things that as GM it's your job to give options to players in role play and adventures and you can do cool umbra adventures. I disagree about werewolves inherent power being good. A lot of issues in werewolf society is werewolves out rank kinfolk who might be better leaders. Also skinwalker rituals literally happen because kinfolk feel lesser. Garu are flawed and primal and animalistic in nature. They are unbalanced just like the three main gods. Garu are flawed barely heroes by any means. Also if your willpower is equal to your rage you won't have social penalties to socializing with humans.
On your issue with wolf born. There's a whole section on how wolves are animals about them being spiritual and I get your mind set about wolves but animals have spiritual sides. There's a rite called the rite to hunt that all wolves do when hunting deer. Your thinking to human and in reality you sound like a player who hates Rogues have evasion but is fine wizards have fireballs and shoot lightning.
You should play werewolf its fun
I disagree very strongly with this view... Personally I don't think I would enjoy the sort of game you are proposing.
Sorry to hear, but it’s true that we all get different things out of roleplaying! This is how I would enjoy W5 and obviously I can’t account for difference in taste
@@ThePrimogen Yeah, but is no point about you I do really enjoy your content :D
Onyx Path and Paradox have not written ANY metaplot for W20. The released things like Changing Ways (despite having very horrible issues with antivaxx, anti abortion and anti-trasgender crap in the first chapter it delivers at giving quality material for ROLEPLAYING a raging spiritual beast as a Garou is) that gives us information about garou, septs, Umbra, Pentex...
I think that they should really try to take a look the most corrupting aspect of the Wyrm, make it more real, because the idea of megacorps being bad has gotten really old, too old (since the problem is not the people running them but cap*talism). The corruption has attached to the human being, so it would be terryfing that garou discovers that maybe cutting the head of a spiritual entity is Malfeas is not going to be enough and the Apocalypse is really inevitable.
I don't know what are they going to do. I am really curious. Maybe they do the V5 thing that the Apocalypse is something different from what garou expect. For me it seems that Apocaliptic Record, the only book announced for W20 by Onyx Path, can be the last sourcebook for the W20 line. Let's see how they surprise us.
"Am I wrong, well obviously I am". You were not wrong until you said that! Spot on thoughts, IMO.
My thoughts:
I would like to see the Garou Nation reframed as an antagonist group, getting the Sabbat treatment. If the wild fanaticism was all a lie, and the Apocalypse was simply an excuse to declare war against everything. Perhaps it was the Wyld was the one to have gone mad after all, or maybe the Triat is only the framework for the Garou's murder religion? I'd prefer multiple religions among the shifters, rather than one right way, including a faction that believes its all false and that no one actually knows what is going on. I would put Beast Courts (a refined version) and a new loose faction with reformed Werewolves who oppose the Garou Nations (perhaps lead by Returned White Howlers or reformed BSDs) as the main player factions. I believe this would follow the Camarilla/Anarch dynamic Vampire has, with the Garou Nation as the violent Sabbat-like faction. This would give player character's a reason to hide their identity from the masses, since the fanatics will eliminate you or convert you as soon as they can. IMO Pentex does not need to be a Werewolf exclusive enemy faction, they make great antagonists for any game. Spirits never were monopolized by W:tA anyway, with Mages, KotE, and Mummies regularly interacted with Spirits and other splat had their ways as well, so I always saw it as odd that the game treated WoD Spirits as their exclusive domain. I would redesign Spirits in the WoD too, but that's a whole different rant.
A problem I have with the game, overall though, is that it does not represent the themes of Werewolf literature. Vampire was precise with literary references, with each Clan being based on different vampire myths and/or literary pieces. Werewolf literature is not often about environmental strive or corporate power, not until recently at least, so I can see showing this theme in part, but not the focus. Werewolf myths and literature were about fear of the unknown, fear of change, betrayal of trust, the nature of identity (ripe for gender or racial commentary), and sometime even cannibalism. I would much rather the themes be more focused on the Curse and the beast within. Less about Spirits and more about Rage, basically. Obviously, anyone can play the way they want, but the way the books are written and the mechanics presented greatly influence the RPG Zeitgeist.
No matter what happens, I hope W5 changes W:tA *more* than V5 changed V:tM.
yah by 2021 the Black Spiral dancers is probably the largest garou tribe in numbers. while the 13 garou tribes outnumber the BSD. the BSD is a strong threat, strong combatants using potent wyrm magics, however the BSD have very poor coordination, yah try to coordinate mutated mentally ill psychotic garou they like to fight and kill each other when there are no external threats. The 13 tribes are more coordinated but lots of political back stabbing could be better. Also the Fera , the third force, they hate the garou as a whole due to past crimes. THey recognize the BSD as a seperate force to the garou nation but conflict a lot with teh 13 tribes too. Also Pentex, yah they are the main enemy. the main tool of the wyrm and they are allied with the BSD but the BSD alliance is very tenous. The pentex find it hard to control the BSD.
Regarding the Fera, maybe W5th should give a lot more importance to Fera. Destroy the Garou Nation and fill those player-niches with Fera. Right now, they feel similar to specialized classes than their own thing.
Also, Ahadi and Beast Courts exist. Forgiveness from the Fera could be a huge part of the 'hope' part of W5th. Ahadi going international is one of my favorite ideas to run yet.
Most werewolf players don't understand they are playing in an epic tragedy, not Captain Planet. That said, as someone who played Werewolf for 20+ years and considers it their favourite TTRPG... I, too, don't like Werewolf all that much. (if unchanged)
W5 looks promising. The stupid ethnic Tribes have been reworked, and that's so urgently needed.
Updating this - W5 is turning out pretty amazing. :)
A change of at least most of the meta plot would be needed as the “humanity and civilization are a disease for the planet” it’s pretty much eco-fascism, I understand that on the 90s ecology and sustainability were kind of new concepts, but this days we have to actually deal with the outcomes of ecological catastrophes and look for real solutions
Just so you know, the Wyld it’s spelled "why-ld" not "will-d"
As far as I can tell, V5 has been dead on the vine since it came out. I'm not counting of W5 even making it, and frankly, after what I see they did to V5, I honestly don't even want it to.
I don’t really agree with your initial statement; do you have sales numbers that point to this?
I do not. Just as far as I can tell. It might be a local thing, or maybe just the US, or I could be wrong, but I see V5 books and sets sitting on shelves, I really do not hear any positive talk about it, and mostly what I did hear was one or two things, in spite of various things that are not liked.
I think Gangrel vamps make better movie style cursed werewolves.
lol. his speech about the wild, weaver, and Wyrm... just ... what? guy either needs drugs or needs to stop drugs...
I think you'd love Werewolf the Dark ages, but yes you have a good argument for how W5 could have been written. They made W5 so woke, it's wokezilla.
What is the willed? I've been playing world of darkness games for over 20 years. I've never once heard of the willed.
Why didn't you talk about the WYLD?
I strongly disagree with making werewolves from "people who care about the environment" unless that is a very very rare type.
Werewolves should straightnup be their own species, related to humans, and wolves. Humans possessed by wolf spirits at the dawn of human evolution, and having evolved with humans. Kinfolk should be half breeds, and werewolves should be able to breed with humans to create kinfolk.
Werewolf+human=kinfolk
werewolf+ kinfolk= 50/50 between werewolf and kinfolk
kinfolk+human=50/50 between kinfolk and human.
ALL of the fera breeds should also be included, and should be spread world wide, taking an animal form equivalent to where they are born (for example, kitsune should exist wherever foxes are native. naga should take the forms of whichever snakes are notable to where they were born. An american naga might be a rattlesnake, a brazilian one may be a python).
ADDITIONALLY: certain spirits should be exclusive to certain fera breeds (like how disciplines are clan specific). A garou should always have a wolf spirit from the start, and gain gifts from other spirits later. A kitsune should always have a fox spirit. These spirits are lost should a fera turn to the wyrm, but should be regained if they repent.
Other spirits should be found the normal way, but all garou should have a wolf spirit.
These spirits should also have tiered powers (like disciplines that way the games can be cross compatible). These tiers represent your closeness to that specific spirit.
That way, a werewolf can say, make a pact with the Bat spirits that typically bond with camazotz, and gain a few camazotz powers.
Certain powers should also be inate to the physiology of certain fera. Camazotz should be able to fly. Bat spirits should not be able to grant flight, but they could grant the ability to glide or manuever mid air or on walls, and grant echolocation, or short range "teleportation" as a batnswarm. But camazotz alone should get things like flight(shared with wereravens), blood magic (shared with anansi), and oblivion esc shadow/spirit magic.
This is just... terrible.
You lost me on the (Willed). Will workers are mages. I'm just confused why you talked about (the Willed) when discussing werewolf. It would make more sense to talk about the Wyld (Wild).
The Wlyd contributes something important to Gaia and the gGarou. Without the Wlyd there is no evolution.Yes the wyld is bad in it's own way, the Garou champion the wyld really because it's the triate that's works the most with the Garou and represents some of the most positive aspects of Gaia, I.E life, evolution, strength, competition. The Garou don't have to fit the mold, some of the best are those that don't. As for the loose hatred, that only goes so deep, a wise pack will determine how best to go about fighting the enemy.