Galliard Group: Werewolf the Apocalypse 5th Edition First Impressions
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- Today we take a look at werewolf the apocalypse 5th edition and share some thoughts and criticisms.
EDIT: TH-cam is deleting comments from our video that the site doesn't like. We're going to try to turn that off.
EDIT 2: Hmm, we turned the filter off, but hidden comments are still hidden. We saw what you said, Victor, and we agree.
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![The Galliard's Guide to Werewolf [Episode 10: Stargazers]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TQtkgkn2TL0/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Galliard's Guide to Werewolf [Episode 10: Stargazers]](/img/tr.png)
According to J A Sambrano, who worked on the book until he realized the piece of crap it was turning into, the Black Furies was entirely Karim Muammar's doing, and most of the other things you hate were his babies too.
"...how they butchered my boy... "
I've been collecting WTA books for years, and my collection was complete, but I think this will be the first book I miss.
The lore is what drew me into this world, but the way it was treated in 5e is hurts me. The graphics are beautiful, the book would look great on my shelf, but I feel more and more that I made the right decision in not pre-ordering it.
Thanks for the podcast, good to hear I'm not the only Grognard who didn't like the new lore.
I was excited for a reimaging of lore like glass walkers getting back to the Conquer of nations learning from wolfs. I also was hoping for an addressing of how to be a supernatural yet veiled from humans. I found in sept politics there could be a punk aspect to it with squandering of caern resources and Elder's taking the Caern in doomed directions(giving players an opportunity to rebel against the garrou authority).
@@ReadingDave I was excited too... until I heard they cuted the metises from the lore and the game. After that, I heard that they cuted all national ties with the tribes. Then I found out that there are no more kinfolks. That was quite a blow. I loved playing as a rebellious Metis or Kinfolk who goes against the norm to prove that they worth something. I liked that each tribe brings with it a cultural background, which gives us a reason to look into it and learn about other cultures. As a Balkanoid, I loved that we could say the Shadowlords were our tribe (They are assholse, but if you know the region it's prity acurate :') ) I know there was a lot of really bad representation in the old books but I feel that instead of facing and fixing it they just stepped over. It just disappointing. :
@@thedreamerezevin1132 The myths really are bigger than one nation. Mongolians had a Wolf - Stag relationship very similar to the Fianna. A number of different places had wolf - psychopomp of the dead besides just Egypt. There has been the potential for the tribes in the past to be more than just a region or a sterotype. I like the draw of wanting to learn of a culture because a tribe highlights it. I wonder if that can be cultivated in W5 like having a caern with a precious resource which is populated with the culture of the Balkans, or First Peoples, etc. Balkans are interesting because wolf myths can be traced really far back. I am very interested in how Werewolf-human relations work out. At first glance without kinfolk, there doesn't seem much to ground the werewolf and no logical ways to apply infulence like what happened previously where there would be legacies of infulence.
I hate that I pre-ordered this book without looking into it further. I was just getting into this setting. I read a good chunk of 20th Anniversary, and it convinced me to pre-order 5th edition wanting to see how they changed it since I've only heard moderately good things about 5e WoD (from one person admittedly). I have it in my hands, and I am frowning.
We all believed it was going to be great. I have no clue what happened to Justin's brain.
Werewolf: The Masquerade
W20 did clean up the rules quite a bit.
The supreme Court didn't outlaw abortion. I get you are worked up in your feelings, but make sure you know what the thing is before you let it cause such anger in you.
Awesome, you found the one mistake in the video. Now everything we said has been invalidated. 🤯
I don't know guys, I've been a Werewolf fan since 1e and I'm really enjoying the new book so far, particularly the new Rage mechanics.
Between 1e and 5e, which is the game you'd go back to first and tell people about first?
@@quickfliptricksmix9691 If you mean entirely new players I'm trying to recruit? Definitely the new edition.
It doesn't give away several "secrets" I'd like to spring on the payers, and it's much more considerate in how it handles the indigenous people's inspired aspects of the game.
Now talking to people about my nostalgia for the wonder and excitement about the game, I'm definitely going to mention finding that first edition on the shelf, but then I'd still show them them the new book.
Same. I think they new mechanics are quite good.
@@quickfliptricksmix9691 2E
This was a terrible edition. I agree with your points about the Black Furies. They killed my favourite Tribe that I have been playing for years. I knew it was going to be bad. I didn't know how bad it was going to be. They took the worst part of Forsaken and shoved this garbage down our throats and told us veteran players to suck it.
What did you enjoy about your favorite Tribe?
@@ReadingDave Since I started playing Werewolf, I have loved who the Get of Fenris are as a Tribe. The writers messed up with 1st ed and fixed it in subsequent editions. The camp, a small percentage of the the Tribe, was wiped out. And still the idiots who can't be bothered to read the material got stuck on one small aspect of the tribe and as a result W5 came along and my Tribe is gone. The Get deserved better than what they got. All the tribes deserved better than what they got.
I may not play Black Fury, but in my group one of the players is a glass walker with the rest of his family being Black Furies and I understand a bit more so I am furious that thus tribe founded to fight for those oppressed which for most of History have been women and children born from those same oppressed gender can now just have a dude who saw these problems and wanted to fight the problem despite not having EVER been in a societal disadvantaged position
There's the excellent question being raised on various forums of: "who is this game even supposed to be for?" It's not for existing WoD fans; Achilli has even referred to us, not so flatteringly, as "legacy gamers" and said it wasn't made for us. It's not for new gamers, because the game gives scant information of what you're even supposed to DO with this game. The only answer I can come up with is this game was made by Justin Achilli for Justin Achilli.
The IP has been handed over to the wrong man who needs to let this property go.
I believe Black Lodge Gaming explained it best when they said that World of Darkness was a product of its time. Many of the themes which were so prevalent in previous editions simply are not relevant in our culture today, so they don't resonate with new players. While in an attempt to adapt the game for a more modern audience, the writers have alienated the old fanbase that made the game successful in the first place.
World of Darkness ended at the appropriate time. It had run its course and was being put to sleep so that White Wolf could move onto something else. Bringing the game back to life after 20 something years was a colossal mistake, and I do not see 5th edition World of Darkness gaining anywhere near the same level of success it once had.
Im trying to think any specific examples of things which dont resonate today in the older stuff and ive got nothing.
The w5 tribes really need in charector hooks to attract werewolfs to join them.
TL;DR at the end of this comment if you wanna skip ahead to my main point.
Hey there, stumbled across your channel doing some W5 research as I'm planning my own chronicle with the system so I thought I'd offer a wall of text of what I'm thinking so far.
First let me say you all seem very well-versed on the legacy systems and lore which is great and ya'll really seem to know your stuff on that front. I am a long-standing W:tA ST and have been into the game since the late 90's. I agree that legacy lore is so robust and it is the main draw of the game. It's unfortunate (for me, the old guy) the designers didn't lean into that more. That said, I think the legacy lore was *lighting in a bottle* and they would be hard pressed to reinvent that without a proverbial copy/paste. Also, let's face it, society was less complex 25 years ago, but I digress.
I also understand the hesitation to adopt the new system as being "good" for lack of a better word, especially since the lore has obviously been diluted and repurposed for the "modern" day. One of your speakers hit the nail on the head I think, that the designers were trying to make it approachable to a new generation. I have my own hesitations about this and I agree with a lot of your points on this front. The tribes feel less unique, metis going away is a big sad, no more gnosis... etc. In the end though I think a lot of these systems were basically only extra bookkeeping in many ways, and that was a problem for me as a ST in legacy. Were they cool on paper? Yeah. Did they play nice at the table for pacing? Not usually.
What I like about the new system is that it streamlines combat. This is a big problem for me in legacy where 5 rounds of combat takes two hours and kills the vibe. Additionally W5 introduces loresheets which are pretty cool and offer system-native PC "secrets" (in some cases) that players can bring to the table without betraying the pack/team outright, relationship maps and a few other mechanics that I feel like bring the table together while you actually play, not while you *think* about playing (which is also fun, don't get me wrong)
As a final thought, I get that ya'll are pissed and have some legit rants, but I think you could have highlighted on some key points that are actually good about W5 of which there are more than a few. If any other legacy STs have read this far, I suggest you bring the best of the old lore to your table while keeping some of the core mechanics of W5 in play for a streamlines experience (again, for pacing). I personally have shown my players in the upcoming chronicle I'm working on the new system and they are already RPing on Discord in play-by-post. To those who are not W:tA experts, the system is exciting and even to veterans like me - it brings a lot of QoL improvements even though it falls short on some of the unique details that made legacy W:tA so intoxicating for players and STs.
TL;DR - I think bringing the lore of legacy W:tA and maybe add some homebrew of the diluted systems into the W5 system is the way to go while keeping core mechanics of W5 at your table. Remember the golden rule that the game is *yours* to use as you see fit. Don't like something? Don't use it.
It doesn't seem like W5 is streamlined at all. With it being harder to get Rage in this game, compaired to legacy where rolling 1s or roleplaying granted Rage. It's the issue we have with V5's Hunger. It looks like the system is difficult for the sake of being difficult.
@@GalliardGroupPodcast I agree it's a bit harder to gain Rage, but I think this is intentional and puts pressure on the players to manage their Rage effectively since it's their main "magical" stat. I'm a fan of the "3-2-1 done" combat system for pacing. Legacy Garou are definitely way stronger than 5E. Depending on your table, this could be a boon.
Another thing I'm a fan of is the emphasis on using Glabro and Hispo more often as they were basically an afterthought/flavor forms in legacy without a ton of utility unless you wanted to bite for your attacks. In W5 there's a lot of reasons to use them. Crinos is taxing and I like this choice personally.
I will be house ruling some changes that said. Such as ways to stay in the Umbra longer and maintain Crinos based on renown. So new characters will struggle in the beginning but as they gain renown they'll be able to control Crinos more and exist in the Umbra.
This edition feels like they dumped a bunch of legos into my lap and told me to "Figure it out". The building blocks are all there, but half the battle (possibly more) is up to the GM.
Edit: These fuckers butchered my Viking bois. They were my favorite goddamn tribe in this whole branch of WoD and turned them into a band of assholes that have lost the plot. This book is by far the biggest waste of $40 dollars of my life and I think i'll stick to W20.
Same thing happened to Scion 2e weirdly enough
I did greatly enjoy this episode
I'll play Werewolf the Forsaken instead of W5 now. Best way I can sum this edition up.
I'm going to start and say that I like WoD. Old WoD. Now to be fair I own Werewolf 2nd edition as well as Werewolf Forsaken 1st. Got the PDF's for W20, as well as V4, PDF V5 and V20th. You guys are not the only ones to come out and express how much was stripped from this edition. Makes me wonder why they even did it if it actually W:Forsaken actually look good.
I have heard that some are trying to incorporate W20 lore with the W5e....but even the mechanics in W5e aren't that great. The shifting of forms and how it's handle (among a myriad of other things that you all brought out...) was the icing on the cake for me. I will find a way to make sure I have an actual W20 hardcover on my bookcase in the next few months.
And you all have done the Lord's (or Gaia's) work in taking one for the pack in purchasing and reviewing this. Sub earned my friends. :)
My fiance and I are young and new to WOD and while we have met shitty people in the community the first thing he said as a Puerto Rican and Taino didn't they used to have Native Tribes, there's no one here like me. It feels like in trying to be more inclusive they erased people and culture.
Werewolf has always about culture and tradition
Tbh this feels like you dont like this edition because of the lore less so than the game itself. Which is fine sonce this is your impression video. As someone who isnt a lore enthusiast i dont have thexsame negative impression. The higgest thing i do agree with though is the part of veing werewolf by blood and the tribes not being as........loose as they seem to have become.
We spent more time on lore because the game mechanics are peanuts. Sheet's almost identical to Hunter 5e which none of us like.
Everyone is free to buy Werewolf 5th edition or leave it. Most Werewolf: The Apocalypse fans do have the 20th Anniversary Edition anyway and will probably stick with it.
EVERYONE! the sky is blue, u can look at it or not. well na, thats a bad 1:1 comparison...
TAKE TWO!
Everyone is available to do things or not do things. (shadow thoughts: GD! IM SO GOOD AT MANUPULATION. Like the spider to the fly I shall wait and be patient, and lure these disgusting plebs in..., with that perfectly crafted, non-hostile, opening sentence.) Most ppl don't care about stuff, so there... (shadow thoughts: mmm. yesss... FK YESSS! IF THERE WAS A GOD, IT WOULD CRINGE AWAY FROM MY SUPURIORITY IN ALL THINGS! ESP... moooom, STFU! Stop knocking on my door...).
Ahhhh, i kiiyd, we okaya. I makah u, how u saaay... AH, a crazed, megalomaniacal, little German guurl, who doesnt work, bc sheecan justa live witha the muthear,. Which allows the itsy bitsee gurly, to play with her you tubes and twit twats all the day and nite, u see? Alas, the poor child, has not enough pesos, for even just one iPhone, she can claim as herownaa. And mommy wants hers back. End... Iz funny, no?
The basic forsaken books where boring but some of the sourcebooks are greaat the night horrors book for second edition was great especially the parts on spirts from space
Not that I will probably ever play 5th edition, but if W5 is giving Story Tellers the freedom to decide what exactly triggers the First Change, then I'm going back to the classics of somebody becoming a Werewolf by surviving a wound inflicted by a Werewolf. My reasonings are that if you are that much of a hardened badass that you can survive an encounter with a werewolf, you catch Gaia's attention; to which she decides to draft you into her service.
I have never been a fan of that whole blood ties, you gotta be BORN as one of the chosen people crap that they used before. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons why I never got as invested into Werewolf as I would have otherwise liked to. Giving ST's the option to choose the process sounds like a favorable change in my opinion. But I don't think it's enough to outweigh the negative changes that come with it.
I like how you bring the past legends in myth and reality to support how older editions are better.
It sounds to me like the studio Skyrim-Ified this game
"Don't think about the lore. Just play the boring game."
Thanks for the review
I can see why you would be furious over this. I don't even own any Apocalypse material, and yet just listening to you guys explain the situation, I was getting pissed listening to this first impression.
I totally agree with ur points guys, Paradox (Pentex) did everything wrong that can be done wrong... what I am most shocked about is what they gad done with the Get... I am from Germany i have pagan blood in my veins (don't get this wrong i am not a nazi) and i am proud of it so the Get where the tribe who I identify with the most with. What they did to the tribe shows me that Paradox dont get the get of fenris they don't understand this tribe its goals and its desteny. Thx for the video and greetings from Germany ✌
I've been really disappointed about W5. I don't know how to salvage it. Even the mechanics are super simplistic... like as a detriment to any general tone they were trying to set. They feel like groups of Abominations more than Garou...
We're making a remedy for that with our 3.5 project. It releases April 2024.
Epic!
You have a new subscriber 🤘
I'm just here to help hate on all the new V/W 5e garbage.
No Fenrir, no Werewolf.
Just say no to Wokewolf: the Kinder Gentler Apocalypse.
A lot of griping about changes made lore wise 33 minutes in *yawn*. The setting is fine, if you like the old setting better thats fine to but in the introduction they state that w5 is a reimagining not a continuation. There are no retcons or removal of stuff that has happened before. W5 is separate from the stuff that has gone before.
You can call it a "reimagining" all you want. There is no imagination in the finished product. All the tribes feel the exact same. Apples to apples, it will always be an inferior product.
@@GalliardGroupPodcast Thats cool, it is its own thing but you're not treating it like it is its own thing, this whole first impressions is just one of you reading a passage from the book and then someone else saying you're fucking kidding me, in 2nd edition bla bla blablabla
If it wants to be its own thing, it shouldn't have called itself Apocalypse, and should've called itself Forsaken.
I do love how you just delete comments that are critical, even though i agreed with some of your points.
Nothing was deleted. Find out that something is true before you say something. Or are you just being an anonymous troll?
lol that's not us. That's TH-cam settings blocking comments. Take your bad faith and get out of here.
The “felt seen” shit was cringe but yes they butchered another of their game lines
when the mythology of real life is bastardized, seems a bit trite to even notice something like this, but I listened anyway.
I am a huge werewolf fan. I have played since 1st edition and I am really into the new 5th edition. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you guys are just hating on the new system.