What Are Powerlifters Doing?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2024
- 00:00 - Intro
01:11 - Snatch
04:20 - Cleans
06:13 - Sumo vs Conventional
08:40 - Other Examples
09:50 - Sumo vs Actual Strength
11:36 - Old Strength
14:53 - Cheating in Weightlifting
17:25 - In Other Sports
sumo deadlift , sumo , is sumo cheating , sumo vs conventional , deadlift , deadlift style , stefi cohen deadlift , yury belkin , best way to deadlift , is sumo a real deadlift , why is sumo allowed , should sumo be banned , is sumo legal , sumo should be banned , sumo is illegal , how to deadlift , powerlifting , powerlifting rules , arch back bench , benching with arch , bench straight back , bent back bench , how to bench , rules for bench press , workout , bench press , floor press , snatch , jerk - กีฬา
![[ไฮไลต์] ฟุตบอลชาย ฝรั่งเศส vs อเมริกา รอบแบ่งกลุ่ม | โอลิมปิก 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oZ9aSS0NEEg/mqdefault.jpg)
please subscribe if you’re new here! it helps a ton!
Would like some reply to comments. Please find the time and thanks
Ok
10:05 that was the last rep in a set, he posted it to look like his max and piss people off about sumo vs conventional. If you scroll down on his page he’s done much more
If there was a double sub button I'd press. Great content!!!
What happened to Clarence
Clarence talked about the notion of arched benches and sumo deadlifts not being a genuine testament of a strength, and now there's even speculation that the IPF might mandate much stricter form with bench pressing in particular. Imo, when the philosophy of your sport becomes a bit too centered around bending the rules than demonstrating who the strongest person is in the room, it becomes a much less accessible/honest sport both from a participant and spectator point of view.
I tried to follow and get into power lifting for a while, but there’s just to much bs. For a simple sport they sure as hell love to over complicate everything around it. They need just one organisation with one set of rules. Honestly its the most boring strength sport
It won't happen, it's not possible to implement rules against arching which wouldn't punish the majority of lifters who aren't using super huge arches with a super wide grip. The most likely thing is grip width requirements which are weight class specific but even that would require new bars etc to be made
Well said
@@jazzman5989 it wouldn’t require new bars. All bars used in comp for bench have the same distance btwn rings
That's what happens with sports in general. Like the analogy that Zach makes with boxing
I've said it before, powerlifting is not about who's the strongest anymore , it's about who has better leverages and can bend the rules the best.
Is that supposed to be a pun?
Except John haack and Russ but yes i def agree
spot on. I've also been saying this for a long time as well.
@@howtosnatch no, it's not.
I mean better leverages is always gonna be a factor.
If you have long arms your deadlift will be higher, if you have short arms your bench is gonna be higher, there is no fixing it, nobody said a sport is or should be fair.
Andrey Malanichev, who was one of the few lifters, who lifted 400 kg raw with both stances, once said, that sumo and conventional will be equalized (or almost equalized), if all athlete will pulling on a stiff bar like in the IPF. And I think he might be right, because stiff bar not allowing to reduce range of motion so hard. Also stiff bar shorter than deadlifting bar, so athletes can't make their stances so wide.
The numbers in the IPF would agree with you. Averaged over the weight classes, it pretty much evens out.
Agreed. The super bendy bar is a bigger issue than sumo alone. Sumo is toughest off the floor, so being able to basically start higher skips the hardest part of the lift
Fuck kabuki!!!!!
@@finestjellybeansrawlol9486 but the difference with a conventional pull on a deadlift bar is so much different than sumo on a deadlift bar. So. Regulate sumo 🤝
@@joemfahey Or just don't use bars the purpose of which literally is to let you lift more weight. How is that any different from wearing a deadlift suit?
The biggest problem with sumo v conventional is the different bars and plates. Using a longer noodle bar and thick plates makes a big difference for sumo pullers. Sumo pullers on a normal power bar will rarely pull 100kg more than their conventional, more like 15-30kg.
Literally 475 convential, 545 sumo 😭
Interesting take, i find that most sumo puller like the guy in the video pulls with straps as well which allows them to ego lift with the weirdest leverages as possible. Like grabbing the bar in its most narrow spot to create the most amount of whip on the deadlift bar. I bet you take away the dude’s figure 8 straps and he’ll be pulling 100kg less.
In heavier weight classes 93kg+ in the IPF worlds conventional is actually preferred and the majority of them pull conventional.
If you apply the same argument that oh they're using conventional and that's cheating because that's more mechanically advantageous for you than sumo that would be dumb.
But people just assume shorter rom = easier and think sumo is cheating when it's just people pulling for their best leverages. But if that were true the majority of the taller of heavier boys would not be pulling conventional
This is all on a stiff bar like the ones in the IPF mind you not the wippy deadlift bars.
@@randynguyen6402 And that's where problem is, IF RULES WOULD BE SET to use only conventional or only sumo, then all this discussion would be pointless, no talking of cheating, no talking of stronger this stronger that, no 50kg lifter vs 120kg lifter, everyone would know who is the strongest without discussion. And this leverages argument is stupid, I would say my leverages would be much better in bench press if I lift my ass to the air, but I can't because of RULES, but when your rule is just lift thing up and put it down expect people to create their own rules.
Almost every sport has these “cheaters” or whatever the word is to describe this. Diving in soccer, flopping in basketball etc. People win medals and trophies but the audience knows what’s happening. We are not idiots.
Same things happen in everyday life. People constantly look to cheat the system for their gain.
Great video btw man.
Back in the day men had pride in their strength, now it's for money or fame.
Not pride, not a value.
it's not cheating if it's within the rules. It just got way out of hand, but optimization for the sake of winning is par for the course in any sport.
@@greuju man, watch out, falling from such a high horse will hurt a whole lot when it happens.
But powerlifting does it to the extreme. One inch bench pressing is ridiculous.
@@greuju There's no money in powerlifting. This is all ego driven.
This is why John Haack is so refreshing to be in the top with actual ROM
Does high bar just below parallel equate to greater ROM than someone who low bar squats just below parallel?
@@shanemalone6263 sure doesn't. Hips travel the same distance to below parallel.
@@shanemalone6263 Obviously not. OP was referencing John Hack's bench grip and deadlift stance. However, low bar squatting is also a form of metric gaming, because it puts your body in a more mechanically advantageous position.
@@tjcogger1974 for some. Haack is not stronger low bar. He said that is why he high bars
@@thejourneyman8890 Yep. I don't think John Hack is a stronger sumo puller either.
Thanks for the feature, I really appreciate it! I didn't realize sumo had gotten quite so ridiculous that someone who can pull 725 sumo can't pull 500 conventional, that's crazy. Both of us are outsiders to powerlifting, but interested in strength culture as a whole, so I think it is easier for us to see the big picture issues in the sport without being emotionally invested in what a particular position means for our own performance or our favorite lifter.
Your discussion of the double lay back press really drove the point home, and that works a lot better in a video.
BTW, I've always wondered why you guys do cleans of a 2 inch platform. Does it even change anything?
if its not comp standard, nobody really cares about that lift
To be fair to sumo, I do not think that that is a common conventional/sumo ratio. Every big sumo puller I know has a pretty close conventional and activity trains both stances.
in the video he says it takes some strain off the low back, think it lets them get more volume with less low back that way
@@deadliestlift yes. The issue with the vid was extreme leverages, bendy and long deadlift bar and wearing straps.
@@deadliestlift yes I wish people would understand this a little better.
Sumo isn't just a flat hundred or 200lbs added to one's deadlift.
Haack pulls 900lbs conventional and isn't just going to 1k+ with sumo. Sumo can help depending on your body and how wide you take the stance. If it was a guaranteed benefit it would have been banned already.
As a powerlifter, nobody in the community respects his rom, and Jamal browner is a great example of a sumo with a respectable rom. As for bench it is a similar situation, I think requiring a certain grip width, only allowing a certain width per weight class would be a good way to fix benching
Jamal himself said if you're in a comp sumo if you want to see how strong you actually are do conventional. I don't mind sumo but guys like this with like 3 inch rom is what gives it a bad name.
@@dustinirwin1 gluteus already touch and they still horribly arch, maximizing a grip width per weight class would prevent 0 rom benches completely
nobody cares about that lift, if you cant pull it in comp, doesnt count
Grip width is the way to go with this, agreed!
@@belethon yeah thats the problem here. what these guys are doing is not sumo anymore. normal rom sumo has its place. for me with a deep hip socket it just feels a bit more natural. but my feet are barely wider than they are with conventional. maybe like 10 cm which really isnt a lot.
This is one of the reasons I always liked Dmitry Klokov. He pretty much does the opposite of this. Instead of making a lift easier he makes it harder. Squats with his ass almost touching the floor with ten second pauses. Snatch grip stiff leg deadlifts while standing on a 6” platform. His presses and bench presses were always super strict.
I think pressing a weight overhead is still very nice to look at, regardless of the level of body English. Unfortunately the same can't be said for extreme bench and sumo deadlift technique
Sadly the ohp with back magic is bad for your spine
I would love if weightlifting added a jerk only event.
@@2thirds on a pr attempt sure. But you can progressively overload the body English just like anything else. It's no different from arching on a bench or rounding on a deadlift
@@gaminikokawalage7124 Yeah. I mean strongmen are used to it. Watch them axle press.
@@MarianoGrande1 yup. Great lift
Love watching you guys train and your quick explanation of the programming. I hurt my back a few weeks ago and have been rehabbing hard but your videos have really helped me visualize that light at the end of the tunnel. Can’t wait to get back to it.
Seeing you and your buddies train at the start of every video is very cool, I like this kinda simple approach to the really cool movements of the snatch and clean and jerk , really makes me want to learn how to snatch.
Do it, find a coach and just do it.
always a good time to learn. i started about 4-6 months ago and have been told im on a really good path technique wise. i just need to be stronger now
get as mobile as possible before trying it and do some research on youtube
do it, just be careful not to get caught
@@bushidofreakz caught?
In the "okay lady and gentlemen" intro, I am that lady! I feel honored
I'm glad you talked about this, Zack. I started competing in the 60s and was part of the group who left weightlifting for powerlifting. I saw a couple of Swedish lifters who's Olympic press looked like a standing bench press. Then that lift got toss out of the sport. However weightlifting made a rule change that made the sport more about technique and less about strength. That was when they allowed the bar to make contact with the body after it passed the knees. To appreciate this try snatching and cleaning with no contact.
I was a competitive powerlifter from 2004-2012. I left the sport because of this nonsense. I switched to Strongman in 2012 (which is a true measure of strength and power), and have never regretted the decision.
As a fan I would much rather watch Strongman than powerlifting. I also would much rather watch Oly than powerlifting. I just train for health and physique myself, as best a lifelong natural can at 48.
@@metalgear74 I'm still lifting as a lifelong natural at 70. It doesn't get easier,you slowly get weaker,but the important part is you don't get nearly as weak as when you quit. Best wishes to you and your family.
Too bad so many strongman comps are just crossfit
I'm glad to see you weighing in on this Zack! It's not that I necessarily have a problem with sumo, but it's the combination of the ridiculous stances and the new super bendy bars (kabuki deadlift bar) that are making it a completely different lift than it used to be. We should do away with deadlift bars and make separate categories for sumo and conventional, similar to what is done with the raw and then raw with wraps categories in powerlifting. And even if you just eliminated deadlift bars, the numbers would even out more. IPF lifters aren't pulling crazy weight on sumo deadlift because the deadlift bar is far more advantageous to a sumo puller anyway.
Pete, I can’t really do hook grip adequately with a 29mm straight bar. I care less about the bend and whip and far more about the 27mm circumference. I’d rather not go back to mixed grip for max pulls. I like my bicep tendons in place!
IPF lifters are pulling crazy weight on the sumo dead lift though? Deadlift bars won't go away. So standardize them. Sumo won't go away. So regulate it.
Pete. Dude! You are the guy that we expect complete honesty from him. And in this matter, I haven't seen one guy point out the obvious. This guy featured in the video doesn't compete with this kind of technique or whatever you wanna call it. He is using figure 8 straps and the whole area from plate to plate to spread his legs (which is 171 cm due to KDL, compared to 154 cm of the TDL). This does not apply to competition standards.. This didn't happen in a comp. So, why is it an issue??? He didn't do any official number that we should be mad about, because of his technique. It's literally a gym lift where he can whatever he wants. And here we are, using it as an example of something to avoid, in order to make powerlifting better, although actual powerlifting doesn't look like this. It's pretty clear that no one can do this in a comp. What we even talking about here
Adjusting your leverages via arching your back or taking a wider stance to get better force production is totally fine in my book. My issue is when competitors are doing it as an obvious means to reduce ROM. The problem is that it is extremely difficult to make rules around that, as it's extremely subjective.
You make rules to focus on the type of competitors you want to cultivate. And that's fine imo. Like nobody is asking people, who have no strength, but can contort to have 0 ROM to compete in a strength competition. It's not their place to be.
Yeah adjusting leverages is fine but it’s gets to the point of being ridiculous, French low bar squats are a great example of this
@@iielysiumx5811. I thought the IPF had a rule limiting how low the bar could be placed on the back..?? 1 or 2” below the deltoids. There’s a difference between having rules and enforcing them.
Dan Grigsby’s recent ATWR deadlift is a great example of what’s wrong with PL right now. Ignoring the mans insane leverages enabling him to eliminate ROM, the kabuki noodle bar further lessens the range. I feel that the lack of standardized equipment and difference what is a good lift and isn’t between federations is a worse problem than sumo
I think it's bad too since even a few higher level powerlifters are hating on the Kabuki bar.
Dan is crazy, the fact he can grip that is wild. 100% the kabuki bar is an issue and needs to be standardized and many even got hurt cuz the whip was so great.
@@timothymorgan8140yeah no disrespect to Dan. The man is a beast with his back ground as a marine body bearer and in powerlifting. But something doesn’t sit right when I see people comparing it to benny’s 1015 ATWR
I feel the same about the Kabuki, but to be fair we are over here "worrying" about a bar being used only in lesser or untested federations: IPF and USAPL still use stiff bar (or at least I'm sure about it for the IPF). I don't know about you, it might be fun to watch insane weights being lifted, but what do untested records mean? To some extent it's like watching the freak show: you may wanna avoid getting your show ruined by some rule-bending changes, but other than that the real sport still follows better standards, at least in regards to the deadlift.
Exactly. That's why only a handful of people even care or acknowledge the lift. Benni's 1015 conventional deadlift with no wrist straps and no suit is still the greatest feat of strength. Even more impressive than Eddie's 500 kilogram deadlift and Thor's 501 kilogram deadlift. Both used a suit, straps, etc.
I was recently talking about this very thing in the gym I go to. There's a couple people who aren't 'powerlifters', and were curious about getting started. They asked about sumo deadlift and the big arches in bench that they've seen. When I explained the rule set to them and why they did it their first response was 'That seems like cheating'. I replied with it's no more 'cheating' than the squat, bench, or deadlift suits that equipment lifters use. However, as those were made their own category in powerlifting it may be time to start thinking about a 'raw sumo' competition group.
This reminds me of my local gym where someone has the "pull-up" record. He's a part of the group fitness squad and I've seen them do their pull-ups, it's pure kipping. I'm not impressed by someone rotating on the bar and then claiming he does so and so many pull-ups. Nah, you don't! Also, the calisthenic crowd would like a word ;)
lol just look at the guinness world record for push-ups not a single real rep is done.
Eh i don't know. I feel like this is more like doing an extremely wide grip pull up rather than kipping. And having a specific bar thickness that makes it easier for you todo them. Kipping is pretty much cheating by using your legs, introducing an entirely different muscle group into the equation. Here hes messing with the parameters that you are allowed to mess with.
I never saw "kipping" til cross fit. I've done so many regular chin ups and pull ups I can't seem to learn how to kip,it seems so unnatural.
@@carlwessels2671 I see where youre coming from i used to not have full ROM. The times i've found myself kipping a small amount is when im really struggling. I generally see girls kipping more than boys so maybe how they got their pull ups was with kipping ansd they build bad habbits
I wouldn't even call that deadlift a sumo deadlift. Usually when you get into position, your knees is supposed to do make a 90 degree angle. This stance is almost a split it's so wide. I can understand if sumo gets a bad reputation in the powerlifting community if this is how a lot of people set up on purpose just so they can limit the range of motion as much as possible.
Yeah there are maybe 100 people who could even be strong that wide. Not to mention it's a wider, whippier bar, with straps and not calibrated plates. People are just cherry picking clips to shit on sumo at this point.
@@thejourneyman8890same with the super arched bench. In the clip compilation early in the vid it's basically three people shown multiple times. It's not some super common thing
@@finestjellybeansrawlol9486 right. Like how many people can get in that position in the first place lol. I like Zach but this stinks of Oly lifter elitism
thanks a lot bro, your content is so dope that it makes me see hope in the daily excruciating things i do at the gym.
I love that I accidentally found this channel been out of lifting seriously for a while got back in consistent and strict about a month ago.... watching a few videos, I hadn't really though about incorporating oly movements back in and now I'm excited to play around w them again made me realize how much I miss it
Chuck Norris deadlifted sumo once, with a very respectable narrow stance, he said he will never cheat himself again and that it was his lowest point in life.
Powerliftings become just how much can I cheat and lie to myself in order to look really strong.
Should be renamed to egolifting lol
Yes yes! Love the format. It's like an episode..an experience 👍🤘 keep it up, coach
I really enjoyed the comment explaining why you're doing the movements your doing in training. Appreciate the insight, Zack
Greg Nuckols talked about this on his podcast, but with sumo it isn't that it's inherently easier or advantageous compared to conventional for most people, it is that lifters who have long arms and can abduct their hips are able to deadlift way more with sumo than with conventional. This is because the sticking point with sumo is at the bottom whereas it's at knee level for conventional. Having the hip structure to abduct well and long ass arms means you are able to cut out a significant portion of the sticking point for sumo, basically doing the equivalent of a block pull. This effect is further enchanced by the use of straps, a deadlift bar, and thick iron or bumper plates.
I highly doubt the guy shown pulling 725lb would be able to deadlift nearly as much had he used a stiff 29mm power bar, calibrated plates, and no straps.
I have never understood the arm length argument. Your arms positioning doesn't change between either lift so why does that matter with sumo vs conventional. Long arms are beneficial for both regardless because you can get more upright. Now on the other hand if you have the mobility and technique to do it sumo literally cuts ROM while focusing more quads (the biggest muscle in the leg) and less spinal erectors (a much smaller weaker muscle) I find it hard to say it's not inherently better if someone put equal time and had equal ability to pull both
@@calebowen2006 but the arm positioning does change ... sumo being inside thighs, conventional being outside ... whilst that might no seem like a lot of diffference, it might reduce ROM by another few inches and sumo is a literal game of inches
A good alternative view on sumo vs conventional is on Alex Bromley’s channel. He watches, and comments, a video by a kinesiologist phd who competes in power lifting and strongman. His assessment on sumo isn’t as generous as Greg’s.
@@calebowen2006 with the short torso and long arms, the advantage of the sumo deadlift is exaggerated. So it’s like you’re stacking perks 😂
@@calebowen2006 You are right that having long arms is advantageous for both sumo and conventional. My point is that because the sticking point aka the hardest portion of the lift is at the bottom for sumo, having long arms AND hips that can abduct extremely well means you are able to dramatically reduce time spent at the sticking point.
As for the argument that sumo is easier because you are using more quads and less spinal erectors and the quads are bigger muscles, I don't really buy into that. I don't have a good explanation for it, but there are many movements such as zercher deadlifts and atlas stones where you are stronger shifting more load to the back and less to the glutes and quads. Even with conventional deadlifts, most people are able to lift more weight if they round their backs, effectively using more of the erectors.
Bench press should have the elbows parallel to the floor, same way they have it in squat. Everything else is a joke with that arching.
the potential issues is that legit some short people who lets say are thicker, can't get to that position. it would take out SHW for bench unless they do super close grip. While also hard to judge with seeing the elbow and body position from the side or front. A finger width limit could solve this without the judges needing to look at yet another thing. Keep the variability of judgeing out of a sport that takes seconds to perform.
Love the recent content keep the stride going!
I like this training session part I hope you keep adding it in the future
I'm a sumo deadlifter but I'm also 6'4 with a 36" inseam. Long legs means a much more than 4" ROM. I feel these sumos (like the one in this video) delegitimizes sumo lifters who are actually extremely strong. Guys like Jamal Browner, Chris Duffin, or Krsytof from Poland.
Sumo doesn't count.
Cant fake conventional
Or Caillor Wollams I've seen videos of him doing 435 kilos sumo and 400 kilos conventional. His sumo doesn't have a large ROM but it's far more than the guy in the video with 725 for three. His conventional had a good ROM. He did those as a 220 pound (100 kilo ) lifter that was 5 or so pounds under the weight limit.
It doesn't delegitimize sumo pullers who are extremely strong. Sumo pullers at the top level are strong regardless of what stance they take, the argument that people are making is that they should be forced to take a more reasonable stance which they would still probably would be able to win competitions from.
If you're actually strong taking a reasonable stance isn't going to lose you competitions. If you're gaming the system a more reasonable stance will expose you.
Sumo deadlift = Your legs can be as wide open as you want as long as your heels are under your knees. Easy fix. That's what a legit sumo stance looks like and that's a real lift.
That's a pretty good idea! I'd like to add for bench press = bottom portion of scapula has to be touching the bench. Seems doable as well.
Or, how about we use "joint creases" the way we do for squatting?
For bench, elbow crease has to be below the shoulder and the bar must make contact
I always flat bench with the bench arching is lame
Really liking the training footage spliced into the video
"lady and gentlement" gets me every time 😂😂😂
This isn't just a sport problem - look up Goodhart's law, it describes this exact same thing more generally: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"
3:40 the jump from 120 to 125 is way more satisfying than it should be😂 can only imagine what it’s like improving your snatch from 123 or 120 to 125🤤
Malanichev said once if we got rid of deadlift bars, the sumo problem would be much less of an issue. I agree.
I like the insight on why deadlifts are interesting! Thanks Zack.
A slight arch is great to increase legdrive for stability, a sumo deadlift is great for people with longer legs who just put their arms on the inside of their legs iso the outside.
Unfortunately both were put to the extremes just to decrease ROM.
It's not about testing who is the strongest and pleasing the fans by performring proper lifts, it is about boosting their ego and pleasing themselves by being opportunists.That is what powerlifting has become and it was inevitable due to the rapid growth of social media
Great content! Keep it up
Love the training vids
@Zack Telander
I think I actually have a unique perspective on this:
I am 5’9, 230lbs. I’m a little overweight but I’m an extremely dense human being. I’m in meet prep, and my current PRs are 460/330/550. I am also extremely hypermobile (possibly due to some connective tissue issue) and I have very good leverages for powerlifting.
My bench and deadlift form has changed a LOT over the last 2 years. Being a normal sized guy and being as flexible as I am at my size, I am capable of doing some pretty weird things with my lifts.
For one: I am able to get a really good arch when I bench. When using max grip, arching as much as possible, I can get my ROM down to about 3 inches. However my arms are so short that I can manipulate my belly (lol) to do this even without an extreme arch, at max grip. My first 3 plate bench was done with a much narrower grip and much less of an arch and I have changed my form as a result of nerve damage in my tricep to intentionally limit range of motion for safety and longevity reasons. What I’ve found with a LOT of experimenting is that there truly is a trade off. Half the range of motion ≠ 2x as strong. In fact maybe with every advantage you can force… I maybe got an extra 5-10% out of it. Which is a lot but plenty of people would lose the same amount doing that form if they’re used to close grip and smaller arches.
As for deadlift, I have the strong conviction that a deadlift bar for most people will make much more of a difference (in ROM and strength) than sumo ever will. I pull more conventionally on a deadlift bar than I do sumo, but on a stiff bar my sumo is almost 50lbs stronger than my conventional since I have horrendous conventional leverages. Even when I put my feet to the plates and wedge as much as possible and use straps I just don’t pull nearly as much as I can on a really bendy bar with either stance.
In the IPF and USAPL there are limiting factors that make sumo deadlifts usually have decent ROM- that being that the stiff bars are pretty short. Feet to plates isn’t that wide unless you’re a tiny person. And the thickness and bendyness of the bar makes differences in grip that affect ROM, like how you can hook grip the bar differently.
Additionally, you almost never see 4 inch ROM deadlifts in meets because everyone who does them in gyms always used non comp setups to maximize their leverages. The guy you went over in the beginning pulls like 300kg as a BLOCK pull with comp plates compared to his 350kg+ “PR.” They’re all gym lifters. I think the sumo hate is massively inflated and misdirected, especially since the deadlift is so leverage dependent. Some people are stronger with sumo, some are stronger with conventional, let ‘em be.
And as someone who uses a cheater arch, the rules should change. Even if it doesn’t add that much, there’s no limiting factor for ROM like there are on squats and deadlifts with depth and bar length respectively.
And that being said, eliminating the bench arch entirely is actually a pretty bad move IMO. You’d basically eliminate every deadlift specialist from being able to safely do the movement if you make them keep their backs flat on the bench. There NEEDS to be a happy middle ground. The stiff bar makes a middle ground for ROM on deadlifts and depth does it on squats. We need something to guarantee some degree of judgeable ROM on bench press if we need that section of the sport to keep its integrity. I’m in favor of elbow depth… solves the problem and seems to have no real downsides.
Elbow depth would be too hard for judges to keep track of when they have to worry about lifters also keeping their feet on the floor, butt on the bench, touch the bar to their chest, etc. A better solution is to just bring in the grip width-I honestly propose a universal close-grip bench where your max grip width is the length of your thumb away from the start of the knurling or some other arbitrary measurement like that
@@hookgrip4jesus310 At 182 pounds weight I BPed 315 with grip so close that my wrists touched my chest,with the bar about an inch off (an injury keeps me from using a wider grip). Some people didn't like it. I said "if you think that's an advantage feel free to use it with no complaints from me". None of them tried it. I had to sometimes take it out of the racks(no helper) more than once to shift grip to get the bar balanced.
I personally have no problem with sumo just extreme width sumo. Most great pullers who have a reasonable width sumo stance can pull very close to the same weight conventionally. If it was advantageous for everyone why isn't everyone doing it? There just needs to be a limit like bench does too.
because it's not allowed in strongman for example. Still you have sumo deadlift and then you have deadlift, they are not the same.
@@andreasnorberg8285 strongman deadlift isn’t technically a deadlift either then. It’s usually with a suit and straps
@@TheGrimiest yeah its more akin to equipped lifting
@@andreasnorberg8285 I think the sumo ban in strongman has more to do with the fact that sumo has a progressively larger advantage the higher the weight starts. And elevated deadlifts are very common in strongman. Not to mention many people could lock out higher deadlifts without the weight ever leaving the ground in a sumo stance, which is obviously an issue. The alternate is also true though, a sumo is way more difficult when pulling from deficit, but no sport tests deficit pulls afaik so it never comes up really.
@@dylanlasky2389 Its very hard to 'equip' a deadlift and get much out of the equipment. Because the lift goes concentric to eccentric, instead of the opposite like in Squat and Bench, you have a limit on how much elastic force you can use, it a deadlift suit was as stiff as a squat suit you would never be able to reach the bar. The difference between a raw and an equipped dead if on the order of 10s of pounds, not 100s like with squat or bench.
Great video 💯
Awesome video Zack! And I still think the clean and press is awesome no matter how much spine English is in there
I'm always fascinated by how a process is attempted to be governed by rules, but at the end of the day, you cannot control what people do within the parameters created. What is interesting is that the abuse of the rules (meaning a betrayal of the intended outcome) will eventually lead to a disinterest in the sport and people will find something else to do that is more fun. I love Strongman because it is very difficult to cheat an atlas stone or a yolk walk and seems to cater to those more primitive "fun" events that you mentioned.
Exactly. And Sumo is not allowed in Strongman.
As far as real world application goes, I had to use a sumo stance recently when my 700lb lawnmower got stuck in a hole, conventionally pulling it up and out would have been impossible with the engine blocking my knees, let alone the heat burning me even if I could get into position. Went sumo with feet under the front axle, and voila, pulled it up and out from the hole.
Just a point to your "lifting things up" in the natural world....
That sumo lift was still ridiculous though, like Jamal pulls 1000+ but his conventional is above 900 too.. pulling 700+ while barely being able to manage 500 seems weird, heavily mismatched strength vectors for sure...
You could only train conventional your whole life and never do sumo and still have been able to do that...
When I first started powerlifting I didn't have a lot of hip/hamstring mobility, and sumo lifting was a great way for me to still deadlift without crunching my spine. Done *correctly,* with my feet a little wider than a squat, I still got a good ROM but I was able to keep my torso fairly upright. It's a shame not only to see deadlifts made a mockery, but also to see sumo get completely misrepresented, when it can be a really useful variant for some people.
You and your boys are beasts! I love lifting but you couldn't pay me enough to do that
How many people complain about conventional deadlifts and say it's cheating? Zero. Meanwhile, there's a large majority of people who hate sumo deadlifts (outside the powerlifting echo chamber), so why not just ban it?
Another issue I'm seeing with "raw" powerlifting is the use of knee sleeves that act like wraps. Several times I've seen powerlifters need help with putting them on, having their friends forcing them on their knees. It reminds me of people putting on squat suits. If elbow sleeves are banned for bench press, why not ban knee sleeves for squatting? I think it's ridiculous to call it raw powerlifting.
The sport has been bastardized.
No one that actually competes in powerlifting complains about sumo.
@@mrmoth26 That's because they don't want to complain about something that benefits them, duh
@@mrmoth26 I have done a meet and I dont like it. Do I count?
@@clarence0 well I don’t see anything wrong with sumo unless it’s like it is in the video. People who have a stance like Jamal I think is acceptable
@@ixbleauxi4633 sumo is equivalent to pull from blocks, the ROM is the same.
While excessive arching on bench and shorter people abusing an max stance deadlift is turning powerlifting into a bit of a joke, perhaps similar to the disconnect between crossfit competitions and what actually gets programmed in good amateur crossfit gyms, but one should keep in mind that the vast majority of lifters and competitors do not have the mobility nor want to bench like that and that most people also cannot "cheat" using sumo, since most still have decent ROM even with a very wide stance and are weak in this position.
The "lady and gentlemen" intro always makes me feel seen 😂
This is one of the best and most thorough takes on the topic
The exhibited deadlift is nothing close to a competition setup and does not exist in remotely the same world as a sumo deadlift without straps, using calibrated plates, with a legal lockout in competition. It’s wholly possible to game the setup enough to add 90lb+ to a deadlift through equipment alone, as exhibited when I set an open American record deadlift with 290kg at 65kg, then followed it with a 331kg deadlift using straps, bumpers, and a deadlift bar a few days later
holy shit. 40kg difference?
@@zacktelander yeah. I was also pretty beat up when I did it and could have potentially added more under better circumstances. The difference can be even greater. There are competitors who have a 200+lb gap due to grip and lockout issues without straps
@@zacktelander Jamal browner has done this on multiple occasions as well, hitting an 880 in comp, then pulling something like 1050 in the gym the next day with straps, deadlift bar and bumpers inside.
This kinda applies to almost every sport out there, winning has become the main focus so people will resort to cheap tricks, in football they fake injuries/ falls to get penalty kicks, we already know about the shenanigans going on in strenght sports, PED use is common in almost all competive sports... I guess it's inevitable when there is money on the line, but it just makes the sport worse experience for everyone, both players/athletes and fans alike suffer from this.
P.S completely agree with your takes on the bench and deadlift, I hope the IPF and other major federations will start to put these yoga practicioners in their place :D
The difference in football is there is huge money at stake or any other game but a game like powerlifting which was meant as a recreational sport for people to see who is the strongest its just dumb and players look ridiculously funny doing arched benches leg split sumo deadlift and nobody is interested to watch them
Hey brotha, Love your stuff, just wondering where I could find those smaller jerk blocks @4:35 I would love those ones with the pad on them, I have a home gym and those would make a great addition for cleans without having to use my bigger crash pads. Thanks
first time anyone mentions judo in a general sports related conversation, and not just mentions, but actually has research a thing or two about it. You get my upvote for that alone lol.
I would definitely say that the floor press and the overhead press are much better metrics of strength because they are more natural in the real world period How often are you on your back with your feet below the level of your back? Yeah, it's not often that you are grappling with somebody in a stairwell
Yeah, a lot of strength athletes do floor presses to gain strength that translates into the bench press. They helped me out quite a bit, actually.
@@Ganbarizer hmm. I ought to try them, then.
I'm really scared of elbow injury with a floor press. Also huge triceps decrease range of motion significantly (cause what does touching the floor even mean?)
@@chrism45 The plates touch the floor. If you have a deep chest(like some big powerlifters) the bar might hit your chest first.
Honestly, I do not care very much about people who can 'break' these lifts so effectively. I firmly believe that effective and efficient technique is one of the core components of 'strength' as it's commonly referred to. These super gamed lifts are just the absolute peak of pushing that component. I will not begrudge someone for doing what they can to make the best use of their body, if you were born with more flexibility in the place of big juicy triceps then work with that. If I were to go off on sumo deadlifts I would be a hypocrite as I actively defend stuff like touch and go, Jefferson stance and other stuff that works better *for me*. I also think that people who use sumo that do not have crazy proportions and end up with less absurd ROM are kinda getting thrown under the bus just because one dude born as a gorilla can sumo and only cover a few inches. As I said in another comment, every big sumo puller I know personally pulls nearly as much conventionally and actively train both stances. I do not think that that guy with a 700+ sumo and a 500- conventional is the norm. I guess what it boils down to is I understand the sentiment here, I see the same things you are seeing, I just don't really think its that big of a deal. Just people choosing to push their strength, that is to say how much they can lift in this context, with the tools given to them.
this was awesome zack!
Loving this new (?) format and also that back ground
Edit: spoke too soon.. wrapped up with that crash hitting me all in the stalgias
I think you can judge this with a simple sniff test. If you look at someone like Alpha Destiny hitting his 405 bench and then you look at the 140lb girl with a 500+ bench, is anyone really going to straight faced say that girl is actually stronger in the bench?
Maybe on the internet, but not many people would chat with some strong ass dudes at the gym pulling 650 conventional on a regular bar and proudly mention your 750x3 2" ROM sumo deadlift bar pull
You could make the argument that just like sumo deadlifting, the Clean is a way to bring as much weight as possible from the floor to your collar bone as easily as possible without bending the rules while the powerclean (just like the conventional deadlift) is the "honorable" way to do it because it relies much more on raw power rather than on diminishing the range of motion to the extreme.
The difference is a full clean still rewards athleticism and strength. I'm not a sumo hater, but these absurd stances aren't even sumo anymore, just like these stupid bench presses.
Ehhh, not quite the same but I see where you're comming from. Proper cleans show less brute strength but still promote full range of motion and allow the lifter to use more of their resources, not get away with using less. The ethic of weightlifting is different than powerlifting too. Powerlifting has an emphasis on strength so a pattern that lowers the strength requirement is contrary to the competition. Weightlifting's ethic is a bit more complicated but a large part of it is skill. Ask yourself now, does it take more skill to power clean or to do a proper clean? A healthy person with the right weight chosen can power clean day 1 in the gym but the same cant be said for a proper clean.
@@evankalis I'd say a full ROM clean would be gripped at shoulder width, not snatch grip.
The rom for a full clean is much greater on the body than a power clean. It's the initial bar travel which doesn't move much, until it does when the weight is squatted up.
Awesome vid you’re a legend zack
awesome video!!!
There is almost two kinds of metric gaming, optimizing a lift for you, and over-optimizing for points. Over-optimizing for points is where this gets absurd, and one of the struggles I have with watching powerlifting. Powerlifting has gotten to the point of Smash Bros. tournaments where they have such minute tech's, wired controllers on CRT's, and have the controller with the correct manufacturing defect to play appropriately or w/e. It's so stupid. Its one reason I really enjoy strongman a lot more since that's optimizing a lift for you.
In strongman, every organized contest is different, 5 or so events per contest, and such an array of events to choose from. It forces adaptability and makes it so no single event can set you leagues ahead due to how scoring works. Its just placement in your group, not necessarily blowing everyone out of the water on one event just because you're a deadlift specialist. You don't need to game the metrics to min-max your ROM and get as many pounds on the bar as possible to spike one lift. If you beat the guy in 2nd by 10 pounds of 100, you're still stronger than him by one place, and you get your points.
Optimizing a lift for you is encouraged since the event are so batshit anyways. Nicolai (uncle.nic on IG) recently hit a 252lb/114kg Circus DB press at Clash for what looked to be a pretty "standard" Circus DB lift. Meanwhile, Guy Fulton (guyfultonjr2 on IG) also just hit the same weight in training, but he actually lapped the bell before getting to the shoulder. The rules are simply, floor to overhead, and the press must be one handed. Guy is a great presser, and just made the lift work for him, while still following the rules.
Downside is, you can't compare to every strongman out there on some organization's database of every lifter's history of lifts, theres no "calibrated" atlas stones, every event is different, etc., etc.. I'm of the mindset of, who cares? Strength waxes and wanes, shit happens. All that should matter is who was stronger that day, with that equipment, for those events.
Figure 8 straps and non competition standard lifts are not powerlifting. Powerlifting definitely gets a bad rap from these videos of short ROM. It’s insulting to the athletes that are winning at ipf world championships that don’t lift like this. They are not the same people.
Powerlifting get more of a bad rep because of people benching with more arch that an Odyssey G4 1000R curvature
great video!!!
There's a few things about the 2 videos of the 485 and 725 that needs to be considered, 1. The first video the guy was pulling with figure 8 straps, which alone can add 100lb, and he's using pound plates which cause the bar to whip more, compared to the conventional which was using hookgrip and calibrated plates. When you factor that in the guys' sumo with hookgrip and calibrated plates is probably more like 585ish which is way less drastic
As a weightlifter, it amazes me that powerlifters nitpick arching and sumo but are silent when it comes to low bar parallel squats.
cause the ROM doesn't change you still have to hit knee/hip crease and lock legs/hips out. Some people don't have the anatomy to not bend over at all during a squat which would make high bar impossible without crazy high oly shoes.
I encourage you to learn more about low bar back squatting. Sumo and low bar are not comparable.
@@_hipflexion In terms of range of motion compared to other variations? Yeah.
I think this even happened in WL, though, if you really think about it. WL went from no contact cleans and snatches, and flat feet, and mostly split lifting, with barbells that didn't rotate as well today or were engineered to oscillate as well, to rely on thigh brush/hip contact, super spinning bars that oscillate really well, and shoes with 1" heels that are way more stable than any 1960s lifting shoe. The only thing now is the pressout rule is called much more than back then imo. But still, you have to really think if the 1950s-1960s lifters were around now they'd be lifting absolutely monstrous numbers with the coaching of today and the equipment of today. In weightlifting we think more efficient technique is a good thing, as it looks prettier, but it's still ultimately the same thing as trying to be done in powerlifting, move more weight with less effort, so I can't really fault powerlifting for doing what it does.
This is really reaching. Changes in rules are not the same as bending the rules.
Its not about the least efford wtf lol its about being the strongest
@@mariguanestico A muscle clean with a tiny split takes way more strength than a squat clean with hip contact.
The training clips at the beginning is cool and I'd love that to be the new norm. Also just gave Atlaspowershrugged a follow. definitely seems like good content.
There’s something a bit similar happening in another relatively pure sport, running, specifically marathoning. Not exactly the same, but similar. They designed tracks and special bouncy shoes and conditions to enable a sub2hour marathon.
When you started with "movement patterns that some federations allow" I knew this would be a wild ride. Every powerlifting federation allows sumo. All of them.
There's a certain irony in you describing this naive notion of "who can pick up the most weight" and then having this very specific aesthetic ideal of how the weight must be picked up. Dan Grigsby is picking the weight up. Is he picking it up a great distance? No. Is the weight still on the floor? Also no. What if he's just really short and has a short conventional deadlift ROM, is that still a problem?
These "problems" of wide sumo deadlifts and bench arches, when put into context, are actually pretty rare. If you actually watch a comp you're not going to see many extremely wide sumo deadlifts or extremely high bench arches. They just seem super common when your only engagement of the sport is getting tagged in "lol look at this bullshit" videos, which if that's the case, would explain why you've thrown in a bunch of multi-ply squats from 10+ years ago. Which is not to say multi-ply squats look significantly different now, but it's for a specific, much smaller audience than all the other lifting you're talking about. Which again, you'd know, if you were actually engaged with the sport.
Having said all that I wouldn't actually hate it if the bench rules changed to result in increased ROM provided that it didn't become a nightmare to judge. I just don't think it's anywhere near the problem that random internet bros who "useta bench 405 in high school footbawl" do.
I’ve been in powerlifting for 4 years now, drug tested and LIFE TIME NATURAL BIG DIFFERENCE BTW. I squat 605 bench 420 and pulled 730 conventional. And I’m 6 foot 2 255lbs and can do the splits in back flips and still extremely athletic but that’s BECAUSE powerlifting MADE me a better athlete then what I already was. This issue I have with hard arching and sumo is this.
You cut the 100m dash into 70m and still call it 100m and now when everyone runs there’s new records but no one seems to fathom that they’re missing 30m of distance to travel?
Or another
5 group of people run 40 yard dash.
5 group of people run 30 yard dash.
Then 40 yarders run 4.3/4.5/4.6
Now the 30 yarder run 3.5/3.6/3.7
They’re all 10 running the “ 40 yard dash “ but who’s actually going the distance.
Ofcourse you gonna have a new WORLD RECORD deadlift by “ Dan Grigsby “ when the ducking bad was LITERALLY designed to give MORE WHIP to sumo pullers which is NOW a biased sport competition. A bars a bars a bars a bar. And that’s all it should be a tool to measure a metric of your strength not bend and wobble twist, so you can bend and wobble and twist. To pull “ pounds “ on the bar. When I see powerlifting I want them to look like me or better then me. Now a man claiming he can bench 405 but has a bird chest that’s BIG “ Leg Press “ energy. I want the sport to be more mainstream but it’s hard when people do shit like this. Let alone if you took top athlete in ANY SPORT and let them hard sumo and excessive arch then see if it carries over into their field of sport speciality how much if ANY would it translate into the field. NONE BECAUSE IT DOESNT CORRELATE. Every sport has to lift weight to be better at their sport. My sport is just the sport of lifting weight. And I mean lifting the fucking weight. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk
I know it's off topic, but what Playlist are you using? I recognize the second AIC song during your snatches but I just can't remember the name.
The Crash Bandicoot theme song in the outro made me nostalgic as hell.
After the 0 rom bench, the thing you've been waiting for: the -1 rom bench! I really hope the PL federations fix this insanity.
I want ass to the grass squat and flat back bench. Like this, no controversy possible
Flat back is stupid, most people's spine have a natural curve to them and this ia doubly so for women since they have big bums. It's also just a less safe position to press from since the shoulder is in a much more vulnerable position
Flat bench? 😂
powerlifters are just the funniest. From one side metal listening hardcore image and stuff and from the other side complete clowns like crossfitters with their kipping pull ups that do 1 inch range of motion lifts with a straight face.
Yeah I mean it’s easy to call the ROM police but when you look at the Westside adjacent Multi-ply psychos and just how dangerous and insane those feats are, even if you think the sport is dumb you MUST respect the dedication it takes to become a human forklift and potentially die under a 1000lb bench.
@@fleshmotorcycle9427 If you dont care about ROM then i'd suggest looking more into something like hip lift (1150kg record by Nick Best) and hold on the back (2840kg record by Paul Anderson). Compared to those numbers Westside no depth squats and sumo 1 inch ROM numbers look puny.
@@jacekblachsiewierski7140 I’ve seen those videos, they’re not exactly “underground”
@@fleshmotorcycle9427 True I always wondered about what would happen if the bench shirt splits.
informative as always..
I had a doubt that Lü Xiaojun says you shouldn't do bench press as it would restricts shoulder mobility what is your take on it Zack?
Totally agree. As someone who pulls sumo with quite a narrow stance width it's incredibly frustrating for people to dismiss your lift - 'hue hue sumo', when it's not even remotely comparable to the bs of these sumo ultra wide stance kabuki bar 2inch rom's. Mandate stance width and remove these increasingly bendy bars and this debate can be put to rest.
Before I start, straps/sumo makes it both illegal in PLing and Strongman, so that lift doesn't count anywhere.
As to the actual sport of powerlifting, and viewing it as a sport, I have zero problem with using whatever movement economy can be used within the rule set. Yao Ming dunking without jumping, Lebron dunking from near the free throw line, John Stockton hitting a 15 foot jumper, are all worth the same 2 points. Most points wins. Different skill sets, different ranges of motion, differently built athletes within the same sport. Sports evolve, all of them. American football didn't always have the forward pass. Dunking wasn't intended to happen at the onset of basketball (neither was dribbling best I can recall, could be wrong there), and was outlawed at one point.
I'll add, I think the "sumo is cheating" is more so "I hate the deadlift bar" in disguise. Especially the new Kabuki bar. It's much whippier and longer, allowing for an even wider stance, and the sumo pullers have gotten extremely efficient with their techniques to take full advantage of how these bars work. As they should, since the name of the game is moving the most weight possible within the rule set. Saying this as a lifter who pulls 100lbs more conventional than I do sumo.
@@BuJammy not just the bar, but the bar has magnified it a lot. I can't recall hearing near as many people complaining about sumo when meets were mostly stiff bars for all 3 lifts.
@@BuJammy social media is the biggest driver of it all for sure.
Imo SBD is not a great test of strength. I'll explain, there's more to strength than just barbells. Optimizing your technique and on an ergonomic barbell for 3 lifts and peaking for comp in order to get the biggest weight isn't really pure brute strength. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I like strongman more, but using non standardized equipment i.e. a rock and lifting that I feel is more so representative of brute strength precisely because you can only get your technique so optimal to the point where it doesn't matter since every rock is different. I don't really know if there's an ultimate test of strength but your powerlifting total is not it, and I think powerlifters don't really understand that. The strength community is so powerlifting oriented that I think we forget what brute strength is.
i had to put my glasses on because i couldnt believe what u wrote in your last sentence..
Hahaha I think I commented on this somewhere else but I just realized that bar didn't look like it even passed his knees!
I guess powerlifters can't do much laughing at crossfitters anymore
“4 inches of range of motion “
I felt that
When you try sumo,you will find it's not that easy as you think.
I don't even do weightlifting, I just like your videos man!
Many, some day I'd like to try and develop that level of mobility - and I mean getting light weight overhead like that. The snatch is really an awesome movement. You make it look easy.
I saw candido video. Now this thanks Zack. As we say in french "tu as remis l'église au milieu du village". I kept respect for power lifters when I saw Dan Green deadlifting 900 conventional and no belt. Some of these guys are really strong 😬
I know bits of several languages (not fluent) if I use another language I'll give a translation. That seems to be a courteous thing to do. It also helps others learn.
Great analogy discussing auto performance, horsepower is the only thing that can determine the power of a car ,power to weight ratio ,good suspension good tires etc can make a laptop civic smoke a super car
Weighed dips are always impressive
Wonderful content Zack! I like this introduction of you lifting, but can you explain more details, cues, what are you are thinking at the moment... For the rest i don't have nothing to say but congratulations!
cracks me up when you say lady and gentlemen.
Like the Shoutout for Jack PGM, the Super arched benched is just why to me personally. I can understand some arch, but almost little to no arm movement is just weird? Sumo Deadlift is okay too, but going that wide is just absurd.
Dan Green wrote an article years back, West of Westside, and one of the points he made was similar to this video.
“but eventually I realized that getting “tight” and arching is only going to barely affect your bench relative to the gains any reasonable lifter endeavors to make. Getting tight wasn’t going to take my 405 bench to 500. And I damn sure wasn’t going to arch my way to a 600 bench. I realized that the speed bench wasn’t doing shit for my strength and technique was pretty worthless if I didn’t get A LOT stronger.”
love the Adam Neely reference haha