60s factory race car owners = cool stories, multuiple engines, drag strip time slips, rich legacy. Modern factory race car owner = "it never left my Garage"
Not totally true, the Demon is a street car the Drag Pack Challengers are most often raced. Look at how many 426 cars are low mileage, because they were parked away at an early age.
@@murfman1967 The most valuable low mileage cars are the ones that only went approximately half of those miles 1320 feet at a time with the long skinny pedal pinned to the floor. The other half of those miles were down the return road.
Modern factory race car owner "I've got a Factory Warranty-I'm gonna beat this car day in and day out,and if it breaks I don't have to pay for it,it's free!" Reality is a bitter pill, peoples
I am a Tech at a dodge Ram Jeep Dealership in CA. Stellantis has the worst factory support of any manufacturer. They look for any reason to deny warranties on the most pedestrian vehicles. I can imagine they dont warranty much on the 170. With that said our owner has packed away 2 of them in his collection with an original demon too. I agree with the future serviceability of all new vehicles. Stellantis makes almost no replacement parts for vehicles more than10 or 12 years old.
My daughter builds jeeps for Stelantis she says the CEO is trying to kill the jeep brand ,they just want to destroy the brand and American jobs . hopefully someone puts a stop to this CEO before he completes his plans
@rtelles1127 I do not doubt it. Since stellantis has taken over the factory support for us techs is almost non existent. Parts for everything are always back order for months. I have worked for Dodge Ram jeep dealers 23 years. This is the worst it's ever been. Our cars are tge highest priced lowest quality available
Took the '70 Challenger out last Sunday. Ran the old 383 hard for about two hours. Forty years on the last rebuild. Truly enjoy the certainty that the old boy can still take it. I do not believe that any of these "last call" cars will have that sort of reliability 50 years down the road. A fast horse doesn't run long.
I was running into this "that part is obsoleted" with Ford parts back in the 90's.........I have been daily driving (weather permitting) my 75 Lincoln. I drove it to the machine shop that is doing my 350 chevy for another project. They see that car and ask what I do at work. I have been in IT most of my life. I tell them "I work on computers all day so I can drive cars that don't have any".
Since Chrysler replaced this high-profile TH-camr's engine for free, that should set the legal precedent for every buyer afterward to get exactly the same service. Full accountability.
Betting that’s not the case . There are 12 more 170s in the dealership now for possibly the same issue . We will see . And a bunch are not being driven at all as they are part of a collection. Could be a major issue masked by sitting cars .
@@shadowopsairman1583 NOPE!! Absolutely not!! Racing is a whole other thing that will void a warranty. As to why "racer X" gets special treatment and others don't. That's easy to explain. Dodge sees it as a marketing expense worth taking on when they "CHOOSE" to fix his car. This has no link to a warranty repair at all. They're fixing his car because he has a HUGE following on U Tube and it's well worth the money to keep him happy. You or I want the same treatment of a repair done outside of the factory warranty we'll need to figure out how we become as important to Dodge as Racer X with all of his followers on the internet is. If we can't demonstrate that why should they be expected to fix a car we break outside of warranty limitations?
Nope. Based in that line of thinking. Everyone should make the same amount of $$$ in a job they do without any consideration of what they bring to the table. These engines are breaking at the track while racing. If racing is a warranty voiding activity they owe you nothing when it happens.
@@Dogboy1960 Sure, but it's a real gray area when the track capabilities are the sole reason to buy the car and the sole way it's marketed. You know what happens when you blow a Porsche up on track? They fix it.
@@jamesblackwell5141 As a museum piece, maybe. But to actually drive as manufactured I don't think so. They have delicate proprietary electronics, & batteries (for EVs). Who can maintain them? A 57 Chevy is a simple machine. As long as the parts are the there, the sturdy simple vehicle can be maintained, parts found, remanufactured, or possibly have parts machined for it.
Yeah the only ones I think have a chance keeping any value is the manuals because there usually tremec trans so easy to get parts and it's just an aftermarket ecm or carb cdi box/distributor with probably different gauges , abs delete and change to a regular ps pump if it's electric
The difference between the racecars from the 60's and these cars is that those cars were actually raced. People have memories of watching them go down the track. In 20 years will someone have memories of their friend getting flung out the window at the intersection takeover?
When Dodge brought back the Challenger & Charger they both caught my eye, they were pretty much everything I've been driving since the 80s minus the Chevy emblems. Either way I liked 'em V-8 and rear wheel drive. Nowadays, I'm glad I'm still driving a Camaro, the stigma attached to the Dodge's just ain't me. Take overers, donuts at intersections, friends getting flung out the passenger side window. Haha, yeah no thanks.
This is a parallel for guitar collectors; if it says “Vintage” on it, it isn’t. Things that are blue-chip collectible items were never looked at this way when they were new.
Computers in cars is not itself a problem. The implementation they've chosen is not ideal but really it is the mindset to treat them as disposable commodities that makes this a problem. A car should not operate on the same subscription model with the same limited support options as a smart phone that is a fraction of the price.
Correction, it's a rolling office. New cars have between 20 and 38 different distinct computers, all communicating with each other via two networks. Take you house, run EVERYTHING in it with it's own computer, then give it a drivetrain and wheels.
Tony, when you slapped your chest and said: “My Chrysler”, you struck a nerve, because that is how I feel about the old Chrysler. In my opinion, the current FCA/Stellantis derivative of Chrysler is not anything other than a holding place for the badges we loved.
I grew up around MOPARS and have owned a few but I've never been a MOPAR guy. From this side I don't see any real difference between modern Chrysler and classic Chryslers. They've always been junk. Often junk with brilliant ideas poorly implemented but still junk. That doesn't mean I can't empathize with you because the real point is that the problems Tony describes affects all of our Makes and models. It isn't just a Chrysler problem.
Just watched a video yesterday of an engine teardown from a 2022 Audi V6 that suffered premature failure due to coolant getting into the oiling system. The engine had such low mileage that you couldn't see any visible wear marks on the plastic timing chain guides. For whatever reason Audi rejected the warranty claim and the vehicles owner had a foot the $30k bill for a replacement engine. This is what you risk getting into with these "technologically advanced" engines. I think the name of the TH-cam channel is I Do Cars if you're interested in seeing the teardown.
Saw that vid. I don't see how it is the owners fault that coolant got into the oil, but I was more listening to that vid while doing other things than actually watching, so maybe I missed something.
You make a valid point. If you don't race a factory race car, you have a museum piece, not a car. I had a 63 Corvette convertible in the 70s, and it was put together decently enough for wash and show service. People would come up and ask if it had numbers matching engine and so forth. In reality it was a 65 engine with fuelly heads, factory Weiand aluminum manifold, but the right air cleaner. The original car was 325 horse and I probably made 375 with the work on it. So, a car show is for the imagination, not for the reality. Unless these Demon 170s make that legacy by being raced into the history books, they are just curiosities in the future. The build sheet and everything else means nothing. The pleasure comes from driving great cars, not looking at them and admiring the purchase documents.
yes matching numbers on the engine block was for warranty. lot of cars are out of warranty window sticker and broad cast sheet fender tags tell the story was at a car show I didn't see any Judges lay under a car and look at the engine #
Me, personally if I had a spare 150K lying around I sure as hell wouldn't buy one of these, shit it looks like any other Challenger on the road and there are PLENTY!, besides for that kind of coin you could build something faster and MUCH cooler! that people even dare call this foriegn derived BS a Mopar is beyond me! 😡😡😡
@@youtubecarspottersguide1 Because car shows are a JOKE. I worked with a guy years ago that built a 50 Mercury street rod from the ground up. It was chopped and everything but the local car clubs here said his car wasn't good enough. BUT they would let the stock Camaros, Mustangs, 57 Chevys etc show up every week. After that i could care less about car shows. Its all a hey look at me thing anyways. i'd rather drive em anyways but thats just me
I remember all the 1976 Eldorados people bought as " investments".....and the black and silver Corvette pace cars....besides I can not take a "race car" with a sunroof, leather and gps navigation seriously.....
I agree, but, Tony, there has to be a financial gain for any company to continue to support them. I may be dating myself, but the day is gone when you bought a new Road Runner, took it home, tore the exhaust manifolds off and put headers on it. The gearhead culture that we grew up in no longer exists. Most young folks don't even want to get their hands dirty, it cuts into their video game time. I'm glad I grew up when I did.
its sad because us young guys who do enjoy wrenching dont have the same things you guys from the muscle car era had. they dont make cool cars anymore that you can actually work on and there isnt much aftermarket for anything other than the classic cars. if youre someone like me who likes old 80's toyotas theres not much in terms of aftermarket, replacement parts of actual usable quality or factory support and none of these kids know anything about tuning or blueprinting an engine let alone basic maintenance
a while back i was watching old episodes of Trucks and HorsepowerTV from 25 years ago......its depressing what happened to gearhead culture. I guess we still have UTG and Roadkill Garage
I'm sorry but that is such BS. I'm getting really tired of hearing that line repeated by older folks who apparently don't even know any younger folks (if you did you would know that's not true). I'm middle aged myself and have plenty of younger friends who are into cars without even counting my coworkers (I'm a mechanic). I don't mean just a passing interest in cars but actually knowing how to work on them, having project vehicles, etc. Please don't believe everything you read on the Internet, car culture is alive and well with Millennals and Gen Z. There are plenty of TH-cam channels proving that if you don't believe me.
@@yurimodin7333 I used to watch those shows on TV too but the thing is they were targeted at guys in their 40s, 50s and above, I certainly couldn't afford any of the builds they would do in my early 20's but the shows were still fun to watch. I haven't had cable TV in years but I'm pretty sure there are still a lot of automotive TV shows, thing is there are much better ones on TH-cam...
Thanks for pointing that out! I'm 69 and always had mopars. I got my first Hemi when I was 16 it was a DeSoto firedome. That was in 1972 and I still have the tag off that car.
When they came out with the anniversary corvettes, every corvette guy bought one, and stored it, years later, they were the cheapest corvettes on the market, and some with only 30 miles on them!!
Crazy right? I recently bought a 95 ZR1 because I lusted after them when they came out. Can't believe how cheap they are. 405HP just doesn't get people interested these days. If it's not pulling 10 sec quarters or sub 7 minutes on the ring nobody wants it.
After working on cars for almost 30 years. And watching this channel for the last few years. My plan/hope/dream is to get a car that has no electronics. A completely analog, mechanical car. Points ignition and a carburetor. I want simple and reliable. Keep a few spare parts and a few simple tools in the trunk and never worry about breaking down and getting stranded. There's too much unnecessary technology in modern vehicles. I'm sick of it
All the dinosaurs that knew how to fix these cars, retired or died. The life of ANY car from the 60's is 20 years plus. These cars built in planned obsolescence is unbeatable. The harnesses are biodegradable but our bags from the store are not. Lobbyists are the problem. Give The GOV a big bag of money and screw the public .
I've converted my 1991 F-150 to be this way. Originally a 351 "5.8L" EFI truck, it now has a cast iron 2-barrel manifold from (I believe) a 1970 - 73 Mustang or Cougar, a Motorcraft 2150 carb from a 78 T-Bird, and a cheap CarQuest points distributor. Uses a $12 AZ coil and a ballast resistor from Tractor Supply. The reason that can work is due to the engine itself being the same as it was during the old days, just with the EFI stuff bolted on top. Still used a distributor, but an EFI specific model, very similar to a DuraSpark dizzy. So that could be an option for you, finding an EFI vehicle that has what used to be a carbureted model of engine, and taking it back in time. Might be less expensive than finding one already like that.
Pre 1975. I believe Cadillac had HEI distributor with coil inside the distributor cap. At least that was easy to service. I had a 71 Vega in 1974 and the points were hard to adjust to the right degree TDC. I'm OK with a 2 or 4 barrel carburetor but points are a real hassle and the GM HEI ignition was a far better design from a maintenance and complying with EPA emission requirements standpoint. I guess if you're mechanically inclined points are OK, but I always hated the hassle of adjusting and replacing them every 10,000 miles on the Chevy Vega.
Almost every new hi end car is not user accessible to repair. They all have multiple computers that require the dealer to repair. The dealer also has access to the factory support. That is how it is today if you want a new car. Thank you for the video sir.
I bought the '22 Challenger Scat Pack, Shaker edition and I drive it occasionally, I don't race it. I bought it to have and enjoy. I'll keep it as long as is feasible, then probably sell it. My '74 Road Runner with a 440 magnum?? I'll *never* sell that. 😊
Yeah been there. I owned a '70 AAR 'cuda for 48 years. Bought it used 2 weeks before I graduated HS in 1973 and just sold it the day after Thanksgiving 2021. Then bought a new Challenger Scat Pak. SOOOO much nicer to drive than the old 'cuda. Seems quite a bit faster too. I don't mind the technology I will never have to fix anything on the Challenger. It's just a toy that I don't drive much. I'll be dead before that thing breaks. And the AAR is sitting in a rich man's collection over in Australia which is alright by me. I didn't want any young entitled butcher hacking up my old car to make it into some ghetto cruiser. I see what happens to the classic cars now when the youth get a hold of them and most of it ain't good...
Tony, I'm about 10 years older than you and spent a lot of time at York US 30 and Maplegrove back in the day. I was thinking the same damn thing about these cars. Great "old" minds think alike!!!
Nothing worse than trying to scavenge for parts. I sold my 87 Shelby Charger last year because of this. It was in great condition, a reliable high 12 sec car with the mds I had and a total blast to drive but trying to find parts was an absolute nightmare.
I can remember thumbing through a Direct Connection catalog and noticing that you can actually buy an Aspen or Volare as a body-in-white and build your own roundy round racer! Those were the days!
No... you could buy a complete race car...long track or short track. In kit form or fully built ready to paint, number and race. That was the Chrysler Kit car program. Chrysler and Petty Enterprises worked together on that. If I remember right the completed car was around 12 grand. But don't hold me to that quote...
Tony why don't you show how simple it was to service the ignition systems like doing the scratch test so viewers can keep there grandma's Volare on the road?
I couldn't agree with you more!!! Same goes for all the new high tech cars, as soon the cost of repair of these new systems is going to exceed the value of the car!
There will always be someone offering support for these vehicles but the trick is that the support, software, and technology required will be the real collectors item.
Back in 2016 I waited 2 months for FCA to supply a rear main seal ( warranty repair) for a 5.7 Hemi, by 2020 it wasn't uncommon to wait 6 months for things like 5.7 camshafts and lifters. When the Stelantis merger was anounced we could all see the writing on the wall.
@shadowopsairman1583 Yes!! Absolutely. I've said this everywhere. Dr. Z and his band of cronies ruined what was left of Chrysler and then tossed it over to Cerebus Capital Management. What the hell does a finance company know about building cars? Nothing. They sold us to Fiat 😢and the death blow was complete. Tim K is cashing out with everyone else's money.
Back in tne day,a neighbor who bought a his and hers (2) 1978 lil red express trucks ,he bought all the wood and decals and stacks in preparation for a resto 20-25yrs down the road. One got sold off in the 90s ,and the other one his kid kept for a few years before realizing he's no wrench and sold that off. Things and plans change.
Keep preaching Tony. If I end up running this show I’m gonna grab a 1970 muscle car and declare every law that would tend to prevent building, selling, and driving it repealed.
Yes, you are right on in your analysis I think. There may be some niche collectors market in the future, but trying to keep one of these alive in 2074 will be next to impossible unless between now and then someone comes up with an uber-smart plug and play engine controller that can be plugged in somewhat universally and just "know" what to do.
Very valid points! My daughter's Challenger HellCat had 6,000 miles & same thing happened! The dealer refused to warranty it because they said she was racing it! Over $30 grand to fix!!
Took the words right out of my mouth. They built these cars with pay walls for every model up you go. The 5.7 is more accessible and that one will continue to be modded and had fun with for relatively little money.
@@jackass72 with newer cars I can aford to drive them daily or on long road trips with 20 mpg daily drive a vintage big block or road trip a street hemi @7 mpg and $10 gal racing fuel now a 5.7 360 magnum FI was good daily driver
The yuppie collectors effect has only got stronger as the economy has got worse. Interesting. Ill take my '70 Lemans that has no stereo, or heat over a modern marvel of mechanical folly, that is designed to bleed my wallet dry.
Of course, but it's Stellantis. Build utter garbage and then deny warranty, why would anyone expect different at this point? At least you'll have oil pressure on the brakes, lol.
You're prechin' to someone who just bought a 40 year old washing machine, but I needed a good reminder why not to just take the easy route. Thanks, Uncle Tony
I started eating bearings in my OEM oil pan, front sump 521 BBF Lincoln MkV. Changed out to a baffled pan, and Cobra Jet dual stage M48 oil pump. Definitely limitations of a front sump; physics. I also have few modern computer controlled cars. Your right, I too prefer simple ignitions, timing, vacuum and carbs…
You're absolutely right, Tony. That front sump pan is wrong for this application. I'll bet that if you could do the download, you'd see the oil pressure drop after just a few seconds of hook up. A race car that you can't race... great. Baby it for a few years and then turns it into a lawn ornament... great. We have so many regulations forbidding the manufacturing of basic utilitarian vehicles (without computers). It didn't start out that way, but there's simply no pleasing these folks at the EPA.
You should read some warranty booklets, I have a 2020 Vespa and if you don't bring it into an "approved" service center for an inspection regularly, it will void the warranty. So doing your oil changes and filter cleaning but no inspection, will void the warranty. Unless you take it to the dealer to do the $100 inspection and sign your little book.
Experienced a similar incident in the late 60's, was a Ford with a Big Block, roached several engines before we made a homemade oil pan and pick-up. Was a lash-up Rube Goldburg design, how often do you see a multi-piece oil pan. Will never but never get into a can of worms like that again. My simple answer today would be a simple rear pan pickup and a transfer pump. Yes it would be a cobbled up looking mess but it would work.
My wife bought me a 67 GTX for Christmas. I can work on it myself and parts are readily available. A friend of mine bought a Demon 170 as an investment. It stays parked in an environmentally controlled garage. I drive mine and enjoy it. I think have the better investment!
Did Chrysler really expect these cars to hold up when run repeatedly on a drag strip that is so sticky on the start line that a person can hardly walk across it without being stuck to the ground. When I heard that these cars had a warranty my first thought was that that was a recipe for financial disaster. Don't get me wrong, I bleed Mopar Blue.
FINALLY someone else said it! I've been making this point for several years. The hot, desireable and rare cars of today are not going to appreciate in the same way as the cars from previous decades. Not sure where the cut off is, but I would put it before 2000 or so. To restore a car from 2024, say fifty years from now will require a truly monumental effort. The sheer amount of parts and chips (no longer made) that will need to be sourced, will make the project dead before it begins. It wont be like restoring a car from the 60's at all. The only option will be to throw some modern engine in it (assuming they're still being made) and build a restomod. You can flat out forget restoring a 2024 car to original in fifty years.
I remember going into Ed DiBennedito Buick on Northern Blvd in Bayside, Queens as a teenager when the GNX came out. The sticker was $29,995. It was roped off on the showroom floor but I still crawled underneath to see the factory track bar.
I worked at a dodge dealership and you are 100% correct. look at the prowler and viper, I had people screaming at me every week because they could buy any parts for them. The best are the PT Cruiser crowd. People are still buying PT's as collector items and would throw a fit when they find out no parts are available.
Tony, you make some good points here, Stellantis got rid of their performance engineers, so who gets to diagnose any problems that may arise? Also. should not the oiling system be a dry sump like some of the late model Corvettes to stop a potential oil starvation issue?
Loved watching the video of RacerX getting trashed by the Tesla, one driver has a baseball cap and a huge smile, the other driver, full helmet and eyes wide open with that frustrated "what am I doing?" look... and this was before he was experiencing engine problems. I agree with you assessment, these cars are primarily rich boy toy's and are not real factory race vehicles.
Well done Tone. Good lecture today. Was browsing eBay the other day and notice that used ECUs for my 2000 Lightning are selling around $2,000. Total insanity
Completely right. These cars are different than the other contemporary real factory race cars in that they are actually very fast, smog legal street cars. So he’s completely right. If you shrink wrap it and take it out in 30 years it probably won’t run and there will be no way to make it run unless you destroy the originality and change out all the electronics. So in the future, this will be at best an interesting museum car. One other point. If you buy one of these and put it away for 30 years as an “investment “ it’s actually a bad investment no matter how much it appreciates. If all you’re trying to do is make money, you will be much better off by putting the $150,000 into an S&P 500 index fund. Based on historical performance of the S&P 500, a $150,000 will be worth $2.6 million in 30 years. Will a Demon 170 be worth $2.6 million in 30 years? Possibly, but probably not. Also you need to calculate the carrying cost of storing and insuring the is car for $30 years.
Right on, Uncle. This problem of techno-obsolescence is universal. I sold my Allis-Chalmers WD45 recently--it was made around 1956 and still ran well. Now imagine: will a 2024 HyperDyne 12-computer 28-module John Deere tractor still be drivable or fixable in the year 2091? And so forth with all the rest of the space shuttle-complex machines.
Offering a warranty on a factory race car is foolish for any manufacturer to offer! I can’t think of any factory race cars from the sixties that had a warranty!
I know these cars are WAY more complicated.....But I remember working as a mechanic at a Dodge/Ford/Chevy dealer when the Viper came out....finding a certifide mechanic for Warranty work on the Viper were few and far between.....they just didnt let any ol Joe in the Garage do work on it without going to school just for the Viper.....imagine these Demons in a few years/just out of Warranty trying to work on them!!!...I ,ll just keep my fuel and fire old Chevies till they ban me from the road. Love your channel Tony and so True on your speech.
Not to mention those TTA's became such a good investment. In the 3rd gen world, I can't think of too many other ones that appreciated like that one did. I wonder if anyone knows how many are still floating around? Whatever the number, I'd bet there's ZERO parts cars.
My 1987 gmc s15 with all factory TBI and factory injectors is still running strong. My 92 deville still runs strong too. Fuel data center LEDs burnt out and they’re hard to get but I know I have a full tank and use trip meter to monitor gas. My 77 cj7 with electronic ignition still runs great. The sky is not falling
I'd agree except that 426 Hemi engines back in the day had the VERY SAME PROBLEM!!! Ate themselves up the too if Racers didn't recognize and address the problem.
The modern challenger weight is around 5,5oo pounds a 68 charger was about 36hundred and a dart valaint or early cuda were sub 3000 set up correctly so you would need 4 digit power just to match the speed of the older and much lighter cars
@seanprice7645BS Ronnie Sox of Sox & Martin racing were running 10s with the B028 factory race 426 Hemi Plymouth Barracuda with a 4 speed manual transmission and as time went on further the cars became quicker . These cars have their own class for drag racing now because Chevrolet and Ford didn't have anything at the time that could stay with them . Those same cars today in this class they run with modern tires wheels & better suspension are running very low 8 second 1/4 miles with carburetors and race fuel with no power adders like turbos superchargers nitrous .
Went from a '98 Toyota SUV to a '78 El Camino. The 1978 service manuals have 1/4 the number of pages than the Toyota ones (and cover several different Chevy cars). The Toyota wiring diagram book alone is bigger than all of the '78 manuals. 6 hours vs 15 min to change an alternator. I could go on and on.... Get simple cars in good shape while you can.
As far as any low mileage collector cars...I'd prefer a car that's been used more. Even a perfect looking show piece will have dry rubber, swelled rubber brake hoses, dried out carbs, rotten gas tanks..... corrosion inside the engine.... Even the crank shaft settling on the rubber seals and creating oil leaks.....it's a total crap shoot with something that has 500 original miles. There are the rare exceptions, someone who understands how to store a car properly, but how many of those people do you think there are? A car with 20-50,000 that has been moved around, used occasionally, and maintained would definitely make a better car than one that sat since 1993. Ask me how I know.... My low mileage big block shortbed 76 Silverado had been parked since 1993. Started inside, eventually got moved outside, and when the old man died, it sat there in the weeds another 15 years. Ruined the interior, rat chewed wiring, burned paint, every brake line, every rubber bushing.....fuel tanks, hard lines, rubber, all of it. The only thing that saved the motor was the son going out and cranking it once in a while to try to keep the motor from locking up.
Oh man, you speak my language. Just finished a restoration of a "cherry" classic 911 that had an engine with completely corroded internals from lack of use. Hard lesson.
I got a 2017 Mustang GT about 8 months ago, It had 1 owner and very low miles, but I did my home work and knew what the aftermarket is and knew that they were continuing to make Mustangs and coyote's for a while.
Don’t kid yourself. These cars will have value. There are tons of kids out there now that want these cars and can’t afford them. One day plenty of these kids will make a lot of money and will look to buy these cars that they couldn’t afford as kids. Prices will be comparable to us trying to buy classics right now. There will be people out there who know how to work on them still. I have friends now who know these cars well. The aftermarket will always provide many parts. These cars will not be worthless. How much will they bring we will see. But make no mistake about it they will be desirable!
Completely true statement....if these cars were built in small numbers over a short period of time, maybe an issue. There was a time when the old cars were being put into the bone yard, cause they were so rusted out and there were no parts to fix them. You couldn't get sheet metal, frame rails, trim pieces, all the stuff we take for granted today. Look at the absolute basket cases that are now back on the street. The aftermarket found a need and filled it.
Friend of my late father ( _requiescat in pace_ , Dad) used to race a Hemi Dart at National Trail back in the day. Cool car. Dad was a pretty good racer who stopped when us kids came along, but he always had a fully stocked garage, and the first family car I remember was a '64 Impala SS 409 4-speed. Later he had a '68 Camaro 356 with an SS 396 hood (for some reason). I never had a hot rod of my own because I got into playing bass instead but I still love 'em.
Great job very clear forward thinking! Just because it happened before doesn’t mean it’ll happen again! I watch a lot of car repair videos and very often cars that are 10 years old can no longer get the engine management module because it is simply no longer supported. That’s why when I build mine. It’s go have points and carburetor neither one of which I care for, but both are available.
Very valid points Tony! As a former reader of "Hot Rod Magazine" and the former owner of a 39 Ford Coupe and 1928 Model A sedan, your point is even more valid. However, a tiny bit of encouragement; There are a growing number of hot rodders that are learning the ins and outs of EV hot rodding. Taking EV parts from different vehicles, and converting them so that all that good iron doesn't go to waste. Someday someone will get a good deal on a Demon 170, and "convert" it rather than repair it.
OCmotivator and TK's garage have been following this closely. Those were the guys that got Dodge to get a Demon to the soldier when the dealer sold it out from under him. Somehow Jay Leno got involved in that as well.
There's certainly a lot of validity in that support or repair will be a long term issue for just about any new performance car, especially ones with low production numbers. And muscle cars from the 60s and 70s will always be simple to fix and repair because they were that way from the start. Still, I think there will absolutely be collectability in these newer cars. Hellcats and Demons have left their mark in the American automobile scene, and they'll be sought after in years to come. Those who have the cash for a Demon 170, will be the guys who can also afford the the cost of whatever solutions the free-market comes up with to keep those machines functioning in the future.
I saw "Demon 170" in the title and almost skipped the video; The modern ultra-high strung modern cars are of exactly zero interest to me. When I see one on the road, I wonder about what possessed the person to buy it. It is exactly the opposite of a heirloom car. Paradoxically in 10-15 years, one of these cars with the original engine and still running right may be a very rare and hence valuable car indeed. Great video as usual!
Most Demon 170s bought to store for long term investment would become trailer queens or show pieces anyway so tech/parts support would be a void issue. Suprised you didn't bring up that Stellantis already fired most of the knowledgeable support team/engineers for these cars already. I quit working as a Chrysler Technician around 17 years ago and they were absolutely horrible and wretched to work and deal with then on warranty issues... I cannot imagine what it is like now.
The best new thing I saw was Mopar cars and trucks sold new in Canada have no warranty if they are resold in the USA even if they are only a couple years old.
Stellantis is the absolute worst corporation that could have ever bought dodge ram jeep Chrysler. They knowingly sabotaged them by no longer making affordable transportation.
Great video Tony. This is a rabbit hole from hell. There are so many issues here it's insane. As far as collector cars go, I get that, to a point. If I were wealthy, I would have a couple of collector cars. They would be REAL cars. Whether a '57 Chevy Bel Air, a '68 Mustang GT, a '69 Roadrunner, a '70 Challenger, whatever, I understand the desire to own cars like that. I would take very good care of them, but I would take them out and drive them for pleasure. I would never buy one as an investment. I would buy it because I WANTED it. Because the car MEANT something to me. Unfortunately, I'm not rich, and cannot afford such cars. I spent the money I had left over after paying the bills building hot rods and drag race cars. I've been doing that all my life. I'm a car guy. A REAL car guy. Meaning, if it has a computer, I have no interest in it, at least beyond a transportation appliance. In fact, that's what I call them. CTAs. Computerized Transportation Appliances. They are not something that can be used as a hobby or for recreation. Yes I do own one. '06 Ford Crown Vic. Had it for 11 years. Has 384,000 miles on it. I maintain it, I repair it, but I have never washed it, other than the windows and lights. The paint is peeling, it's covered with door dings. But it gets me from point A to point B. That is it's one and only purpose. I have 4 other vehicles. All carbureted. Vehicles I have built or heavily modified. Those are the toys. Those are the fun cars. Drag racing. I've been doing it for over 40 years. I've never gotten below the twelves. Anything faster than that starts to get really expensive. I don't chase low times or high speeds. Go down that road and you will never be satisfied. I know I can only go as fast as I can afford to. Yes, the more you know about engines and cars, and the better you get at building them, the more you can get out of them. To a point. But you run into the law of diminishing returns. You reach the point where you are not going any faster without more money. Which leads me to the next thing. Drag racing, or any kind of racing, means seriously abusing the car. You are pushing it to its limits, over and over again. And when you do, something IS going to break. So in my case, not being made of money and not having unlimited time to keep rebuilding cars, I had to back off a bit, to minimize breaking stuff. I would much rather lose a race than blow an engine. Most of my racing has been just for fun, on run what you brung Friday nights. It's really not that different than playing golf. Something I have zero interest in. Nevertheless, things do break. About this RacerX guy. I've watched a few of his videos. He doesn't seem to live in the real world. He may be a skilled driver and racer, but he doesn't seem to understand the concept of things breaking. You drag race a car, over and over again, and it is going to break. That's just the way it is. Does he think he has some kind of magic car that doesn't break? So he did what every other drag racer has done at some point. He broke the car. In his case, it looks like Stellantis is going to replace the engine he broke under warranty. But then what? Is he going to keep racing it? Because if he is, he's going to blow another engine, or break some part of the car. Do you think Stellantis is going replace the engine or whatever breaks again? I seriously doubt it. I have never in my life heard of any competition vehicle being sold with a warranty. Cars like the COPO Camaro, Cobra Jet Mustang, Drag Pack Challenger, that were sold as factory race cars, did not come with a warranty. I don't know how easy or expensive those cars are to fix, or how long parts will be available for them. They are computer cars. I'm mostly a Chevy guy. And the old school small block Chevy is my favorite engine. I have built many of them, both for racing and street use. They are super simple, I have every single spec for one in my head. When I decide to build an engine, I don't have to engineer it. All I need to know is what I want from that engine. Whatever that is, someone has done it before. Probably a million times. So I have a recipe from that to build my engine with. That engine is so well known that it doesn't have any secrets anymore. And you do not need factory support. You can build a small block Chevy any way you want, without using a single GM part. Some might not see much of a challenge in that, but when you are poor, you have to work with what you've got. Just one more thing. The built vs bought thing. I don't have much respect for someone with a lot of money, that goes out and buys an expensive new car, and heads straight to the track with it. They've missed the whole point. Even if they do well, it was with something someone else built. Where's the fun in that? If they have the money, then take that money, buy the parts, and build your own car. Then take it to the track and see how well you did. Many of these "storebought racers" never even get their hands dirty. Way back about 20 years ago, I was at the track, on Friday night, and a guy showed up with what looked like a completely stock almost new Corvette. He lined up against a ratty looking Chevy Vega, that someone built in their backyard. That Vega crossed the finish line before he was halfway down the track. He didn't even stop to get his time slip. He drove right past the booth, through the pits, and left. If I had been him, I would probably have done the same thing. That must have been really embarrassing.
I still think stellantis is the stupidest name for a car company. It sounds like a prescription drug for crotch rot .
🤣🤣🤣
talk to your doctor if stellantis is right for you. side effects may include...
😂😂😂
Excellent!
STELLA!!! STELLA!!!
And Rivian sounds like an erectile disfunction med... "Sorry honey, I forgot to take my Rivian..."
60s factory race car owners = cool stories, multuiple engines, drag strip time slips, rich legacy.
Modern factory race car owner = "it never left my Garage"
It never left Mom's garage😅
Not totally true, the Demon is a street car the Drag Pack Challengers are most often raced. Look at how many 426 cars are low mileage, because they were parked away at an early age.
@@murfman1967 The most valuable low mileage cars are the ones that only went approximately half of those miles 1320 feet at a time with the long skinny pedal pinned to the floor. The other half of those miles were down the return road.
@@murfman1967 my scatpack carrys the tradition on. I beat a mid engine corvette thing the other day, kid was mad lol.
Modern factory race car owner "I've got a Factory Warranty-I'm gonna beat this car day in and day out,and if it breaks I don't have to pay for it,it's free!"
Reality is a bitter pill, peoples
I am a Tech at a dodge Ram Jeep Dealership in CA. Stellantis has the worst factory support of any manufacturer. They look for any reason to deny warranties on the most pedestrian vehicles. I can imagine they dont warranty much on the 170. With that said our owner has packed away 2 of them in his collection with an original demon too. I agree with the future serviceability of all new vehicles. Stellantis makes almost no replacement parts for vehicles more than10 or 12 years old.
My daughter builds jeeps for Stelantis she says the CEO is trying to kill the jeep brand ,they just want to destroy the brand and American jobs . hopefully someone puts a stop to this CEO before he completes his plans
@@rtelles1127 we need Axel Foley.
@rtelles1127 I do not doubt it. Since stellantis has taken over the factory support for us techs is almost non existent. Parts for everything are always back order for months. I have worked for Dodge Ram jeep dealers 23 years. This is the worst it's ever been. Our cars are tge highest priced lowest quality available
Really shows you how much of a scam the dealership system is if the owner can put away two of them along with a demon…
@ziplokk1453they’re known by most as human filth…doesn’t matter if it’s a shady used car dealer, or a big name brand manufacturer.
Took the '70 Challenger out last Sunday. Ran the old 383 hard for about two hours. Forty years on the last rebuild. Truly enjoy the certainty that the old boy can still take it. I do not believe that any of these "last call" cars will have that sort of reliability 50 years down the road. A fast horse doesn't run long.
SO TRUE Man!
love and passion alone will make them just as long.
@@Xterminate13 Nope. Too much complicated cheaply made electronics
@@sategllib2191 we'll see. 😎
I don’t think these modern hellcats etc. are going to be worth much as ppl think they’ll be, especially compared to your ‘70
I was running into this "that part is obsoleted" with Ford parts back in the 90's.........I have been daily driving (weather permitting) my 75 Lincoln. I drove it to the machine shop that is doing my 350 chevy for another project. They see that car and ask what I do at work. I have been in IT most of my life. I tell them "I work on computers all day so I can drive cars that don't have any".
that lincoln likely has duraspark II, meaning the ICM (the large grey box on the fender) is your only computer
Ha, love it!
Best closing line, "They'll probably end up sticking a 440 with a Torqueflite in it because THAT is eternal." Well said.
Ok, and only with new aftermarket castings and heads. Because the days of cheaply getting a 440 out of a New Yorker in a junk yard is just about over.
@@michaeldonnelly6747they are done
How come? @@michaeldonnelly6747
What do you mean you can find 440s in motorhomes campers trucks all kinds of garbage they put those things in
I’ll take the 18 spline 833. 😀
Since Chrysler replaced this high-profile TH-camr's engine for free, that should set the legal precedent for every buyer afterward to get exactly the same service. Full accountability.
And no special treatment either, if its for racerx it should be for the average driver too, no excuses
Betting that’s not the case . There are 12 more 170s in the dealership now for possibly the same issue . We will see . And a bunch are not being driven at all as they are part of a collection. Could be a major issue masked by sitting cars .
@@shadowopsairman1583 NOPE!! Absolutely not!! Racing is a whole other thing that will void a warranty. As to why "racer X" gets special treatment and others don't. That's easy to explain. Dodge sees it as a marketing expense worth taking on when they "CHOOSE" to fix his car. This has no link to a warranty repair at all. They're fixing his car because he has a HUGE following on U Tube and it's well worth the money to keep him happy. You or I want the same treatment of a repair done outside of the factory warranty we'll need to figure out how we become as important to Dodge as Racer X with all of his followers on the internet is. If we can't demonstrate that why should they be expected to fix a car we break outside of warranty limitations?
Nope. Based in that line of thinking. Everyone should make the same amount of $$$ in a job they do without any consideration of what they bring to the table. These engines are breaking at the track while racing. If racing is a warranty voiding activity they owe you nothing when it happens.
@@Dogboy1960 Sure, but it's a real gray area when the track capabilities are the sole reason to buy the car and the sole way it's marketed. You know what happens when you blow a Porsche up on track? They fix it.
Yesterdays classic automobiles age like wine, todays, milk.
Your absolutely correct all new cars including EVs are expensive junk that won’t last long out of warranty
clever way to put it
Will there even be cars from the current century that will be considered classic in the future?
@@jamesblackwell5141 As a museum piece, maybe. But to actually drive as manufactured I don't think so. They have delicate proprietary electronics, & batteries (for EVs). Who can maintain them? A 57 Chevy is a simple machine. As long as the parts are the there, the sturdy simple vehicle can be maintained, parts found, remanufactured, or possibly have parts machined for it.
Yeah the only ones I think have a chance keeping any value is the manuals because there usually tremec trans so easy to get parts and it's just an aftermarket ecm or carb cdi box/distributor with probably different gauges , abs delete and change to a regular ps pump if it's electric
You got love UTG speaks from the heart soul and mind. He definitely gets it. It is a rich man’s car out of my budget. 👍
The difference between the racecars from the 60's and these cars is that those cars were actually raced. People have memories of watching them go down the track. In 20 years will someone have memories of their friend getting flung out the window at the intersection takeover?
That's freaking funny, imagine that...
No, those animals will be long dead from an OD in 20 years.
Yep. No one raced with air conditioning, power windows and a sunroof back then...
When Dodge brought back the Challenger & Charger they both caught my eye, they were pretty much everything I've been driving since the 80s minus the Chevy emblems. Either way I liked 'em V-8 and rear wheel drive. Nowadays, I'm glad I'm still driving a Camaro, the stigma attached to the Dodge's just ain't me. Take overers, donuts at intersections, friends getting flung out the passenger side window. Haha, yeah no thanks.
LOL! On the other hand, there was the cop in the 60's that was robbing banks and using his hemi powered car as a getaway car.
This is a parallel for guitar collectors; if it says “Vintage” on it, it isn’t.
Things that are blue-chip collectible items were never looked at this way when they were new.
i cant stand the muh vintage toan guys
I believe this applies to most every new vehicle currently available. Vehicles have simply become computers with wheels!
Computers in cars is not itself a problem. The implementation they've chosen is not ideal but really it is the mindset to treat them as disposable commodities that makes this a problem. A car should not operate on the same subscription model with the same limited support options as a smart phone that is a fraction of the price.
exactly. this comment should be pinned to the top.
Correction, it's a rolling office. New cars have between 20 and 38 different distinct computers, all communicating with each other via two networks.
Take you house, run EVERYTHING in it with it's own computer, then give it a drivetrain and wheels.
@@bradleysmith2021my house works fine w 0 computers
You nailed what I was thinking ...
Tony, when you slapped your chest and said: “My Chrysler”, you struck a nerve, because that is how I feel about the old Chrysler.
In my opinion, the current FCA/Stellantis derivative of Chrysler is not anything other than a holding place for the badges we loved.
I grew up around MOPARS and have owned a few but I've never been a MOPAR guy. From this side I don't see any real difference between modern Chrysler and classic Chryslers. They've always been junk. Often junk with brilliant ideas poorly implemented but still junk.
That doesn't mean I can't empathize with you because the real point is that the problems Tony describes affects all of our Makes and models. It isn't just a Chrysler problem.
British Leyland 2024 colourized. I'll miss Mopar.
I think alot of us agree........Chrysler was something very special, but now?....insert comment here.............................! lol
@@angry870it's not just Mopar, it's Ford and GM too. They just aren't good anymore.
fully agree. And my kingdom for a 70 AAR Cuda lol coolest car ever
Just watched a video yesterday of an engine teardown from a 2022 Audi V6 that suffered premature failure due to coolant getting into the oiling system. The engine had such low mileage that you couldn't see any visible wear marks on the plastic timing chain guides. For whatever reason Audi rejected the warranty claim and the vehicles owner had a foot the $30k bill for a replacement engine. This is what you risk getting into with these "technologically advanced" engines. I think the name of the TH-cam channel is I Do Cars if you're interested in seeing the teardown.
Thats what you get with audi, bmw, mercedes...
Yeah I’ve watched his vids before. Very thorough in his analysis
Saw that vid. I don't see how it is the owners fault that coolant got into the oil, but I was more listening to that vid while doing other things than actually watching, so maybe I missed something.
I love that channel. Watch his AUTOpsies every Saturday night.
$30k the engine or engine and labor?
very true logical mechanic..such wisdom for all time...give me hand crank windows and kick start motorcycles..
Forget that. Electric start is there for a reason
@@hoonaticbloggs5402the reason is, u pussy
In 1969 there was an old mechanic saying exactly the same thing tony is saying now ,about the cars coming out then.
You make a valid point. If you don't race a factory race car, you have a museum piece, not a car. I had a 63 Corvette convertible in the 70s, and it was put together decently enough for wash and show service. People would come up and ask if it had numbers matching engine and so forth. In reality it was a 65 engine with fuelly heads, factory Weiand aluminum manifold, but the right air cleaner. The original car was 325 horse and I probably made 375 with the work on it. So, a car show is for the imagination, not for the reality. Unless these Demon 170s make that legacy by being raced into the history books, they are just curiosities in the future. The build sheet and everything else means nothing. The pleasure comes from driving great cars, not looking at them and admiring the purchase documents.
yes matching numbers on the engine block was for warranty. lot of cars are out of warranty window sticker and broad cast sheet fender tags tell the story was at a car show I didn't see any Judges lay under a car and look at the engine #
Me, personally if I had a spare 150K lying around I sure as hell wouldn't buy one of these, shit it looks like any other Challenger on the road and there are PLENTY!, besides for that kind of coin you could build something faster and MUCH cooler! that people even dare call this foriegn derived BS a Mopar is beyond me! 😡😡😡
Springsteen had a 396 with fuelie heads
I still enjoy looking at them too!
@@youtubecarspottersguide1 Because car shows are a JOKE. I worked with a guy years ago that built a 50 Mercury street rod from the ground up. It was chopped and everything but the local car clubs here said his car wasn't good enough. BUT they would let the stock Camaros, Mustangs, 57 Chevys etc show up every week. After that i could care less about car shows. Its all a hey look at me thing anyways. i'd rather drive em anyways but thats just me
Plastic won't make the timeline for storage it'll dry rot and crack work on brittle
99% chance: Dodge will NEVER reveal the culprit of the failures in the 170's
I remember all the 1976 Eldorados people bought as " investments".....and the black and silver Corvette pace cars....besides I can not take a "race car" with a sunroof, leather and gps navigation seriously.....
And 100th Anniversary Harleys.
I agree, but, Tony, there has to be a financial gain for any company to continue to support them. I may be dating myself, but the day is gone when you bought a new Road Runner, took it home, tore the exhaust manifolds off and put headers on it. The gearhead culture that we grew up in no longer exists. Most young folks don't even want to get their hands dirty, it cuts into their video game time. I'm glad I grew up when I did.
its sad because us young guys who do enjoy wrenching dont have the same things you guys from the muscle car era had. they dont make cool cars anymore that you can actually work on and there isnt much aftermarket for anything other than the classic cars. if youre someone like me who likes old 80's toyotas theres not much in terms of aftermarket, replacement parts of actual usable quality or factory support and none of these kids know anything about tuning or blueprinting an engine let alone basic maintenance
a while back i was watching old episodes of Trucks and HorsepowerTV from 25 years ago......its depressing what happened to gearhead culture. I guess we still have UTG and Roadkill Garage
💯
I'm sorry but that is such BS. I'm getting really tired of hearing that line repeated by older folks who apparently don't even know any younger folks (if you did you would know that's not true).
I'm middle aged myself and have plenty of younger friends who are into cars without even counting my coworkers (I'm a mechanic). I don't mean just a passing interest in cars but actually knowing how to work on them, having project vehicles, etc. Please don't believe everything you read on the Internet, car culture is alive and well with Millennals and Gen Z. There are plenty of TH-cam channels proving that if you don't believe me.
@@yurimodin7333 I used to watch those shows on TV too but the thing is they were targeted at guys in their 40s, 50s and above, I certainly couldn't afford any of the builds they would do in my early 20's but the shows were still fun to watch. I haven't had cable TV in years but I'm pretty sure there are still a lot of automotive TV shows, thing is there are much better ones on TH-cam...
Thanks for pointing that out! I'm 69 and always had mopars. I got my first Hemi when I was 16 it was a DeSoto firedome. That was in 1972 and I still have the tag off that car.
Nice to know u have tag, took alot of effort?
When they came out with the anniversary corvettes, every corvette guy bought one, and stored it, years later, they were the cheapest corvettes on the market, and some with only 30 miles on them!!
Crazy right? I recently bought a 95 ZR1 because I lusted after them when they came out. Can't believe how cheap they are. 405HP just doesn't get people interested these days. If it's not pulling 10 sec quarters or sub 7 minutes on the ring nobody wants it.
After working on cars for almost 30 years. And watching this channel for the last few years. My plan/hope/dream is to get a car that has no electronics. A completely analog, mechanical car. Points ignition and a carburetor. I want simple and reliable. Keep a few spare parts and a few simple tools in the trunk and never worry about breaking down and getting stranded.
There's too much unnecessary technology in modern vehicles. I'm sick of it
Good luck. Have you checked the prices.
The only vehicles I own or ever will own!
All the dinosaurs that knew how to fix these cars, retired or died. The life of ANY car from the 60's is 20 years plus. These cars built in planned obsolescence is unbeatable. The harnesses are biodegradable but our bags from the store are not. Lobbyists are the problem. Give The GOV a big bag of money and screw the public .
I've converted my 1991 F-150 to be this way. Originally a 351 "5.8L" EFI truck, it now has a cast iron 2-barrel manifold from (I believe) a 1970 - 73 Mustang or Cougar, a Motorcraft 2150 carb from a 78 T-Bird, and a cheap CarQuest points distributor. Uses a $12 AZ coil and a ballast resistor from Tractor Supply. The reason that can work is due to the engine itself being the same as it was during the old days, just with the EFI stuff bolted on top. Still used a distributor, but an EFI specific model, very similar to a DuraSpark dizzy. So that could be an option for you, finding an EFI vehicle that has what used to be a carbureted model of engine, and taking it back in time. Might be less expensive than finding one already like that.
Pre 1975. I believe Cadillac had HEI distributor with coil inside the distributor cap. At least that was easy to service. I had a 71 Vega in 1974 and the points were hard to adjust to the right degree TDC. I'm OK with a 2 or 4 barrel carburetor but points are a real hassle and the GM HEI ignition was a far better design from a maintenance and complying with EPA emission requirements standpoint. I guess if you're mechanically inclined points are OK, but I always hated the hassle of adjusting and replacing them every 10,000 miles on the Chevy Vega.
Almost every new hi end car is not user accessible to repair. They all have multiple computers that require the dealer to repair. The dealer also has access to the factory support. That is how it is today if you want a new car. Thank you for the video sir.
Really enjoy Tony's channel and the way he communicates. 👍
I bought the '22 Challenger Scat Pack, Shaker edition and I drive it occasionally, I don't race it. I bought it to have and enjoy. I'll keep it as long as is feasible, then probably sell it. My '74 Road Runner with a 440 magnum?? I'll *never* sell that. 😊
That 74 RR is awesome. I have my 74 Charger. Just a 318 with 49k miles. She's my keeper.
Yeah been there. I owned a '70 AAR 'cuda for 48 years. Bought it used 2 weeks before I graduated HS in 1973 and just sold it the day after Thanksgiving 2021. Then bought a new Challenger Scat Pak. SOOOO much nicer to drive than the old 'cuda. Seems quite a bit faster too. I don't mind the technology I will never have to fix anything on the Challenger. It's just a toy that I don't drive much. I'll be dead before that thing breaks. And the AAR is sitting in a rich man's collection over in Australia which is alright by me. I didn't want any young entitled butcher hacking up my old car to make it into some ghetto cruiser. I see what happens to the classic cars now when the youth get a hold of them and most of it ain't good...
Are all 440 magnum?
Watching that shaker move is fun.
Thank you Uncle Tony! I've been waiting for someone to address the long term viability of this era of cars.
Tony, I'm about 10 years older than you and spent a lot of time at York US 30 and Maplegrove back in the day. I was thinking the same damn thing about these cars. Great "old" minds think alike!!!
Nothing worse than trying to scavenge for parts. I sold my 87 Shelby Charger last year because of this. It was in great condition, a reliable high 12 sec car with the mds I had and a total blast to drive but trying to find parts was an absolute nightmare.
Blame obama for cash for clunkers scam, all orchestrated to push evs and ford was the 1st to push for it during the bailouts in 2009.
Are y referencing the little dodge Shelby after they got name from ford?
@@rogerdodrill4733should have bought an 87 Mustang Gt.
I can remember thumbing through a Direct Connection catalog and noticing that you can actually buy an Aspen or Volare as a body-in-white and build your own roundy round racer! Those were the days!
No... you could buy a complete race car...long track or short track. In kit form or fully built ready to paint, number and race. That was the Chrysler Kit car program. Chrysler and Petty Enterprises worked together on that. If I remember right the completed car was around 12 grand. But don't hold me to that quote...
Tony why don't you show how simple it was to service the ignition systems like doing the scratch test so viewers can keep there grandma's Volare on the road?
I couldn't agree with you more!!! Same goes for all the new high tech cars, as soon the cost of repair of these new systems is going to exceed the value of the car!
There will always be someone offering support for these vehicles but the trick is that the support, software, and technology required will be the real collectors item.
Back in 2016 I waited 2 months for FCA to supply a rear main seal ( warranty repair) for a 5.7 Hemi, by 2020 it wasn't uncommon to wait 6 months for things like 5.7 camshafts and lifters. When the Stelantis merger was anounced we could all see the writing on the wall.
This started when daimler-benz had their hands on it.
@shadowopsairman1583 Yes!! Absolutely. I've said this everywhere. Dr. Z and his band of cronies ruined what was left of Chrysler and then tossed it over to Cerebus Capital Management. What the hell does a finance company know about building cars? Nothing. They sold us to Fiat 😢and the death blow was complete. Tim K is cashing out with everyone else's money.
Limited run means limited replacement parts
Back in tne day,a neighbor who bought a his and hers (2) 1978 lil red express trucks ,he bought all the wood and decals and stacks in preparation for a resto 20-25yrs down the road.
One got sold off in the 90s ,and the other one his kid kept for a few years before realizing he's no wrench and sold that off.
Things and plans change.
Keep preaching Tony. If I end up running this show I’m gonna grab a 1970 muscle car and declare every law that would tend to prevent building, selling, and driving it repealed.
Yes, you are right on in your analysis I think. There may be some niche collectors market in the future, but trying to keep one of these alive in 2074 will be next to impossible unless between now and then someone comes up with an uber-smart plug and play engine controller that can be plugged in somewhat universally and just "know" what to do.
Very valid points! My daughter's Challenger HellCat had 6,000 miles & same thing happened! The dealer refused to warranty it because they said she was racing it! Over $30 grand to fix!!
That’s is crazy 🤦🏾♂️
How fast did she run the 1/8th in?
What cost 30K? Engine?
Took the words right out of my mouth. They built these cars with pay walls for every model up you go. The 5.7 is more accessible and that one will continue to be modded and had fun with for relatively little money.
yes all the engining $ should of been put into the 5.7 to keep it going as for the demon 170 , helliphant wasted $
Cam & lifter failures, valve seats falling out... You can keep your gen. 3 hemis. I'll stick with the old stuff.
@@jackass72 When it comes to cars, the old stuff is always where it will be at.
@@jackass72 with newer cars I can aford to drive them daily or on long road trips with 20 mpg daily drive a vintage big block or road trip a street hemi @7 mpg and $10 gal racing fuel now a 5.7 360 magnum FI was good daily driver
You can have hellcat power in a 5.7 for less than scatpack money!
The yuppie collectors effect has only got stronger as the economy has got worse. Interesting. Ill take my '70 Lemans that has no stereo, or heat over a modern marvel of mechanical folly, that is designed to bleed my wallet dry.
Love that Lemans. Real Detroit Style and Steel. It will always be loved.
Amen
And how fast is that in the 1/4 mile?
Wasn’t the Lemans , kinda like the richer guys GTO , back then , guys swapped & built motors , you car was fast as you wanted it to be ,
Clarion car audio , best radio receivers in the industry
ANY car, that fast, that powerful, with only a front sump oil pan due to the cars geometry, MUST have a dry sump system.
Needs
Of course, but it's Stellantis. Build utter garbage and then deny warranty, why would anyone expect different at this point? At least you'll have oil pressure on the brakes, lol.
Funny how racers did that 50 years ago and Stellantis didn't do that on a 100K car,
The extra $$$ is worth it.
That was an awesome video! You know your stuff and made a whole hell of a lot of sense!
You're prechin' to someone who just bought a 40 year old washing machine, but I needed a good reminder why not to just take the easy route. Thanks, Uncle Tony
Dixie cup. Lol. What an awesome metaphor!
I started eating bearings in my OEM oil pan, front sump 521 BBF Lincoln MkV. Changed out to a baffled pan, and Cobra Jet dual stage M48 oil pump. Definitely limitations of a front sump; physics. I also have few modern computer controlled cars. Your right, I too prefer simple ignitions, timing, vacuum and carbs…
You're absolutely right, Tony. That front sump pan is wrong for this application. I'll bet that if you could do the download, you'd see the oil pressure drop after just a few seconds of hook up. A race car that you can't race... great. Baby it for a few years and then turns it into a lawn ornament... great. We have so many regulations forbidding the manufacturing of basic utilitarian vehicles (without computers). It didn't start out that way, but there's simply no pleasing these folks at the EPA.
You should read some warranty booklets, I have a 2020 Vespa and if you don't bring it into an "approved" service center for an inspection regularly, it will void the warranty. So doing your oil changes and filter cleaning but no inspection, will void the warranty. Unless you take it to the dealer to do the $100 inspection and sign your little book.
that is illegal in the us
Experienced a similar incident in the late 60's, was a Ford with a Big Block, roached several engines before we made a homemade oil pan and pick-up. Was a lash-up Rube Goldburg design, how often do you see a multi-piece oil pan. Will never but never get into a can of worms like that again. My simple answer today would be a simple rear pan pickup and a transfer pump. Yes it would be a cobbled up looking mess but it would work.
As soon as u said front sump i think dumb as a hammer
My wife bought me a 67 GTX for Christmas. I can work on it myself and parts are readily available. A friend of mine bought a Demon 170 as an investment. It stays parked in an environmentally controlled garage. I drive mine and enjoy it. I think have the better investment!
Did Chrysler really expect these cars to hold up when run repeatedly on a drag strip that is so sticky on the start line that a person can hardly walk across it without being stuck to the ground. When I heard that these cars had a warranty my first thought was that that was a recipe for financial disaster. Don't get me wrong, I bleed Mopar Blue.
FIAT/PSA. Chrysler is just a brand in the Franco-Italian conglomerate, Chrysler makes no decisions
Explains why Stellantis laid off a crap tonne engineers this yr in the states and Europe
FINALLY someone else said it! I've been making this point for several years. The hot, desireable and rare cars of today are not going to appreciate in the same way as the cars from previous decades. Not sure where the cut off is, but I would put it before 2000 or so. To restore a car from 2024, say fifty years from now will require a truly monumental effort. The sheer amount of parts and chips (no longer made) that will need to be sourced, will make the project dead before it begins. It wont be like restoring a car from the 60's at all. The only option will be to throw some modern engine in it (assuming they're still being made) and build a restomod. You can flat out forget restoring a 2024 car to original in fifty years.
My heart always skips a beat when Uncle Tony mentions a Turbo Buick (GNX) or other G body .....because he knows😂
I remember going into Ed DiBennedito Buick on Northern Blvd in Bayside, Queens as a teenager when the GNX came out. The sticker was $29,995. It was roped off on the showroom floor but I still crawled underneath to see the factory track bar.
I worked at a dodge dealership and you are 100% correct. look at the prowler and viper, I had people screaming at me every week because they could buy any parts for them. The best are the PT Cruiser crowd. People are still buying PT's as collector items and would throw a fit when they find out no parts are available.
You can’t even buy the 2018 special Demon tires anymore! They are gone
This has been the most intelligent and thoughtful discussion on these race cars
Tony, you make some good points here, Stellantis got rid of their performance engineers, so who gets to diagnose any problems that may arise? Also. should not the oiling system be a dry sump like some of the late model Corvettes to stop a potential oil starvation issue?
There are already work arounds for Hellcats with standalone computers from multiple aftermarket companies like Holley/MSD/FiTech/megasquirt
Loved watching the video of RacerX getting trashed by the Tesla, one driver has a baseball cap and a huge smile, the other driver, full helmet and eyes wide open with that frustrated "what am I doing?" look... and this was before he was experiencing engine problems. I agree with you assessment, these cars are primarily rich boy toy's and are not real factory race vehicles.
I'm not sure why you would love the EV trashing a good ol' ICE. Maybe you're on the wrong channel??
Well done Tone. Good lecture today. Was browsing eBay the other day and notice that used ECUs for my 2000 Lightning are selling around $2,000. Total insanity
Completely right. These cars are different than the other contemporary real factory race cars in that they are actually very fast, smog legal street cars. So he’s completely right. If you shrink wrap it and take it out in 30 years it probably won’t run and there will be no way to make it run unless you destroy the originality and change out all the electronics. So in the future, this will be at best an interesting museum car. One other point. If you buy one of these and put it away for 30 years as an “investment “ it’s actually a bad investment no matter how much it appreciates. If all you’re trying to do is make money, you will be much better off by putting the $150,000 into an S&P 500 index fund. Based on historical performance of the S&P 500, a $150,000 will be worth $2.6 million in 30 years. Will a Demon 170 be worth $2.6 million in 30 years? Possibly, but probably not. Also you need to calculate the carrying cost of storing and insuring the is car for $30 years.
Stock market may not be historical in future
Right on, Uncle. This problem of techno-obsolescence is universal. I sold my Allis-Chalmers WD45 recently--it was made around 1956 and still ran well. Now imagine: will a 2024 HyperDyne 12-computer 28-module John Deere tractor still be drivable or fixable in the year 2091? And so forth with all the rest of the space shuttle-complex machines.
Offering a warranty on a factory race car is foolish for any manufacturer to offer! I can’t think of any factory race cars from the sixties that had a warranty!
I know these cars are WAY more complicated.....But I remember working as a mechanic at a Dodge/Ford/Chevy dealer when the Viper came out....finding a certifide mechanic for Warranty work on the Viper were few and far between.....they just didnt let any ol Joe in the Garage do work on it without going to school just for the Viper.....imagine these Demons in a few years/just out of Warranty trying to work on them!!!...I ,ll just keep my fuel and fire old Chevies till they ban me from the road. Love your channel Tony and so True on your speech.
You make a good point Tony. That's an expensive paper weight.
You hit right on a main reason Im not giving up my 89 TTA - easy to work on, you can read the codes with a paper clip! Parts are still available
Not to mention those TTA's became such a good investment. In the 3rd gen world, I can't think of too many other ones that appreciated like that one did. I wonder if anyone knows how many are still floating around? Whatever the number, I'd bet there's ZERO parts cars.
2007 GMT800, easy to work on.
"What happens after 5 years?",...SOL.
My 1987 gmc s15 with all factory TBI and factory injectors is still running strong.
My 92 deville still runs strong too. Fuel data center LEDs burnt out and they’re hard to get but I know I have a full tank and use trip meter to monitor gas.
My 77 cj7 with electronic ignition still runs great.
The sky is not falling
Yeah this thing he probably has more electronics than the space shuttle and they're not going to support that
I was saying the same things about new vs old way back in the 80s. as soon as computers even though simple, will always keep me driving pre 80s cars.
HEMI DARTS WERE IN THE 9'S. SO I DONT WANNA HEAR MOPARS EXCUSES. THATS 55YRS AGO.
I'd agree except that 426 Hemi engines back in the day had the VERY SAME PROBLEM!!! Ate themselves up the too if Racers didn't recognize and address the problem.
Hemi Darts were absolutely not in the 9s from the factory, lol keep dreamin boomer
The modern challenger weight is around 5,5oo pounds a 68 charger was about 36hundred and a dart valaint or early cuda were sub 3000 set up correctly so you would need 4 digit power just to match the speed of the older and much lighter cars
Those nine second hemis were pro stock cars.
@seanprice7645BS Ronnie Sox of Sox & Martin racing were running 10s with the B028 factory race 426 Hemi Plymouth Barracuda with a 4 speed manual transmission and as time went on further the cars became quicker . These cars have their own class for drag racing now because Chevrolet and Ford didn't have anything at the time that could stay with them . Those same cars today in this class they run with modern tires wheels & better suspension are running very low 8 second 1/4 miles with carburetors and race fuel with no power adders like turbos superchargers nitrous .
Went from a '98 Toyota SUV to a '78 El Camino. The 1978 service manuals have 1/4 the number of pages than the Toyota ones (and cover several different Chevy cars). The Toyota wiring diagram book alone is bigger than all of the '78 manuals. 6 hours vs 15 min to change an alternator. I could go on and on.... Get simple cars in good shape while you can.
As far as any low mileage collector cars...I'd prefer a car that's been used more. Even a perfect looking show piece will have dry rubber, swelled rubber brake hoses, dried out carbs, rotten gas tanks..... corrosion inside the engine.... Even the crank shaft settling on the rubber seals and creating oil leaks.....it's a total crap shoot with something that has 500 original miles. There are the rare exceptions, someone who understands how to store a car properly, but how many of those people do you think there are?
A car with 20-50,000 that has been moved around, used occasionally, and maintained would definitely make a better car than one that sat since 1993. Ask me how I know....
My low mileage big block shortbed 76 Silverado had been parked since 1993. Started inside, eventually got moved outside, and when the old man died, it sat there in the weeds another 15 years. Ruined the interior, rat chewed wiring, burned paint, every brake line, every rubber bushing.....fuel tanks, hard lines, rubber, all of it. The only thing that saved the motor was the son going out and cranking it once in a while to try to keep the motor from locking up.
No problem with carbs here bud
Oh man, you speak my language. Just finished a restoration of a "cherry" classic 911 that had an engine with completely corroded internals from lack of use. Hard lesson.
I got a 2017 Mustang GT about 8 months ago, It had 1 owner and very low miles, but I did my home work and knew what the aftermarket is and knew that they were continuing to make Mustangs and coyote's for a while.
"My Chrysler" no longer exists. Neither does common sense.
💯
Growing up on the fender of real Mopars I’ve hated all the new school stuff since it came out but this makes me feel even better about it
Don’t kid yourself. These cars will have value. There are tons of kids out there now that want these cars and can’t afford them. One day plenty of these kids will make a lot of money and will look to buy these cars that they couldn’t afford as kids. Prices will be comparable to us trying to buy classics right now. There will be people out there who know how to work on them still. I have friends now who know these cars well. The aftermarket will always provide many parts. These cars will not be worthless. How much will they bring we will see. But make no mistake about it they will be desirable!
You're kidding right? Todays generation will look for a Demon 170 video game simulation and be content....LOL
@@PinyonGear video is no roller coaster, need to feel g force for fun time
Completely true statement....if these cars were built in small numbers over a short period of time, maybe an issue. There was a time when the old cars were being put into the bone yard, cause they were so rusted out and there were no parts to fix them. You couldn't get sheet metal, frame rails, trim pieces, all the stuff we take for granted today. Look at the absolute basket cases that are now back on the street. The aftermarket found a need and filled it.
Friend of my late father ( _requiescat in pace_ , Dad) used to race a Hemi Dart at National Trail back in the day. Cool car. Dad was a pretty good racer who stopped when us kids came along, but he always had a fully stocked garage, and the first family car I remember was a '64 Impala SS 409 4-speed. Later he had a '68 Camaro 356 with an SS 396 hood (for some reason). I never had a hot rod of my own because I got into playing bass instead but I still love 'em.
Bang on Uncle Tony! Well said Sir. “So simple even an 11 year old girl could do it” 😂
Great job very clear forward thinking! Just because it happened before doesn’t mean it’ll happen again! I watch a lot of car repair videos and very often cars that are 10 years old can no longer get the engine management module because it is simply no longer supported. That’s why when I build mine. It’s go have points and carburetor neither one of which I care for, but both are available.
Life support Tony? The share holders are pallbearers, and the weeping widow is throwing down the flowers...
Very valid points Tony! As a former reader of "Hot Rod Magazine" and the former owner of a 39 Ford Coupe and 1928 Model A sedan, your point is even more valid.
However, a tiny bit of encouragement; There are a growing number of hot rodders that are learning the ins and outs of EV hot rodding. Taking EV parts from different vehicles, and converting them so that all that good iron doesn't go to waste. Someday someone will get a good deal on a Demon 170, and "convert" it rather than repair it.
I don't get why dodge keeps the front sump . Ya the frame ya ya . Stop making the frame like that.
That would change the entire suspension geometry. What they need is a dry sump system on the race versions.
These cars were never meant to be tracked. They were meant to be purchased, shrink wrapped, and put into the owners' garages.
AKA bragging rights
Yep, limited production... Rich people buy it and toss it in a collection.
In many cases, thats the only way a dodge will last more than ten years lol
OCmotivator and TK's garage have been following this closely. Those were the guys that got Dodge to get a Demon to the soldier when the dealer sold it out from under him. Somehow Jay Leno got involved in that as well.
butter the insider broke the news also
If you want to run quarter miles in the 8s or better, you want a dry sump oiling system.
Sounds like they need a dry sump.
There's certainly a lot of validity in that support or repair will be a long term issue for just about any new performance car, especially ones with low production numbers. And muscle cars from the 60s and 70s will always be simple to fix and repair because they were that way from the start. Still, I think there will absolutely be collectability in these newer cars. Hellcats and Demons have left their mark in the American automobile scene, and they'll be sought after in years to come. Those who have the cash for a Demon 170, will be the guys who can also afford the the cost of whatever solutions the free-market comes up with to keep those machines functioning in the future.
it sounds like they NEED a dry sump oil system. one that holds enough oil to make it down the strip.
I saw "Demon 170" in the title and almost skipped the video; The modern ultra-high strung modern cars are of exactly zero interest to me. When I see one on the road, I wonder about what possessed the person to buy it. It is exactly the opposite of a heirloom car.
Paradoxically in 10-15 years, one of these cars with the original engine and still running right may be a very rare and hence valuable car indeed.
Great video as usual!
Most Demon 170s bought to store for long term investment would become trailer queens or show pieces anyway so tech/parts support would be a void issue. Suprised you didn't bring up that Stellantis already fired most of the knowledgeable support team/engineers for these cars already. I quit working as a Chrysler Technician around 17 years ago and they were absolutely horrible and wretched to work and deal with then on warranty issues... I cannot imagine what it is like now.
The best new thing I saw was Mopar cars and trucks sold new in Canada have no warranty if they are resold in the USA even if they are only a couple years old.
That has been the case for quite a while.
My 67 GTX will run forever!
I think any car that has a computer operating the drivetrain functions are phoned to have electronic parts becoming obsolete and not available.
I'm so out of the loop with modern cars, I thought this was some unknown Demon from the early 70s with a slant six. 🤣
Not as fast, but probably more interesting...😂😂
I would think that a good knowledgeable Technician with a Wi-Tech and an active subscription would be able to work on this outside the dealership.
Exactly
Interesting take on the 170.. you definitely make some solid points Tony.. good video buddy 👍
Stellantis is the absolute worst corporation that could have ever bought dodge ram jeep Chrysler. They knowingly sabotaged them by no longer making affordable transportation.
Great video Tony. This is a rabbit hole from hell. There are so many issues here it's insane. As far as collector cars go, I get that, to a point. If I were wealthy, I would have a couple of collector cars. They would be REAL cars. Whether a '57 Chevy Bel Air, a '68 Mustang GT, a '69 Roadrunner, a '70 Challenger, whatever, I understand the desire to own cars like that. I would take very good care of them, but I would take them out and drive them for pleasure. I would never buy one as an investment. I would buy it because I WANTED it. Because the car MEANT something to me. Unfortunately, I'm not rich, and cannot afford such cars. I spent the money I had left over after paying the bills building hot rods and drag race cars. I've been doing that all my life. I'm a car guy. A REAL car guy. Meaning, if it has a computer, I have no interest in it, at least beyond a transportation appliance. In fact, that's what I call them. CTAs. Computerized Transportation Appliances. They are not something that can be used as a hobby or for recreation. Yes I do own one. '06 Ford Crown Vic. Had it for 11 years. Has 384,000 miles on it. I maintain it, I repair it, but I have never washed it, other than the windows and lights. The paint is peeling, it's covered with door dings. But it gets me from point A to point B. That is it's one and only purpose. I have 4 other vehicles. All carbureted. Vehicles I have built or heavily modified. Those are the toys. Those are the fun cars.
Drag racing. I've been doing it for over 40 years. I've never gotten below the twelves. Anything faster than that starts to get really expensive. I don't chase low times or high speeds. Go down that road and you will never be satisfied. I know I can only go as fast as I can afford to. Yes, the more you know about engines and cars, and the better you get at building them, the more you can get out of them. To a point. But you run into the law of diminishing returns. You reach the point where you are not going any faster without more money. Which leads me to the next thing. Drag racing, or any kind of racing, means seriously abusing the car. You are pushing it to its limits, over and over again. And when you do, something IS going to break. So in my case, not being made of money and not having unlimited time to keep rebuilding cars, I had to back off a bit, to minimize breaking stuff. I would much rather lose a race than blow an engine. Most of my racing has been just for fun, on run what you brung Friday nights. It's really not that different than playing golf. Something I have zero interest in. Nevertheless, things do break.
About this RacerX guy. I've watched a few of his videos. He doesn't seem to live in the real world. He may be a skilled driver and racer, but he doesn't seem to understand the concept of things breaking. You drag race a car, over and over again, and it is going to break. That's just the way it is. Does he think he has some kind of magic car that doesn't break? So he did what every other drag racer has done at some point. He broke the car. In his case, it looks like Stellantis is going to replace the engine he broke under warranty. But then what? Is he going to keep racing it? Because if he is, he's going to blow another engine, or break some part of the car. Do you think Stellantis is going replace the engine or whatever breaks again? I seriously doubt it. I have never in my life heard of any competition vehicle being sold with a warranty. Cars like the COPO Camaro, Cobra Jet Mustang, Drag Pack Challenger, that were sold as factory race cars, did not come with a warranty. I don't know how easy or expensive those cars are to fix, or how long parts will be available for them. They are computer cars. I'm mostly a Chevy guy. And the old school small block Chevy is my favorite engine. I have built many of them, both for racing and street use. They are super simple, I have every single spec for one in my head. When I decide to build an engine, I don't have to engineer it. All I need to know is what I want from that engine. Whatever that is, someone has done it before. Probably a million times. So I have a recipe from that to build my engine with. That engine is so well known that it doesn't have any secrets anymore. And you do not need factory support. You can build a small block Chevy any way you want, without using a single GM part. Some might not see much of a challenge in that, but when you are poor, you have to work with what you've got.
Just one more thing. The built vs bought thing. I don't have much respect for someone with a lot of money, that goes out and buys an expensive new car, and heads straight to the track with it. They've missed the whole point. Even if they do well, it was with something someone else built. Where's the fun in that? If they have the money, then take that money, buy the parts, and build your own car. Then take it to the track and see how well you did. Many of these "storebought racers" never even get their hands dirty. Way back about 20 years ago, I was at the track, on Friday night, and a guy showed up with what looked like a completely stock almost new Corvette. He lined up against a ratty looking Chevy Vega, that someone built in their backyard. That Vega crossed the finish line before he was halfway down the track. He didn't even stop to get his time slip. He drove right past the booth, through the pits, and left. If I had been him, I would probably have done the same thing. That must have been really embarrassing.