Happened in my 86 Firebird, pedal was spongey with little travel. Only got a few houses down from my house, immediately turned around and parked it. Luckily I only had to replace the master cylinder. I remember when you posted the video about stopping a car when the throttle sticks. I kid you not it happened to me a week after you posted it, but I remember what you said 1. Kill power, 2. Down Shift. Luckily my brakes also helped me gradually slow down. Being a 24 years old I feel that driving an older car makes me a better driver, because I don’t have time to be distracted by a phone. I’m looking at gauges, and feeling the car as it goes down the road. This was another educational video, your really helping young guys like me keep these old girls rolling.
I hate to break it to you but.... there is little something called Ncap..... when you see those cars in actual crashes I would not recommend to anyone to use car that old. They seem to be mobile coffins if something hits you. This comes from person who loves, smell of gasoline, oil, sounds, power it produces everything. But still.... Safety is important and there isnt any.
@@kylecromp319 Really ? You going to ignore the safety of modern cars as if you never seen crash test of older car and jump to insults ? Governments on the other hand.... yeah I dont feel to highly either ;)
1000% agree I can’t tell you how much more aware and in tune I am driving due to classic vehicles Knowing what to do when your foot goes through the firewall, because yeah, that happens.
@@lobobaltazar1322 OMG, Bro! 😮.. I grew up in the 50's, and started with Oldsmobiles and GMs. Fkn deathtraps at any speed! They folded like accordions above 30 mph! Stopping distance at speed, measured in the hundreds of feet! Even the movies of those boats flopping around used modified suspension and brakes and the best drivers of the time. Thanks for your comment. Might save someone's life. Those piles of 💩 certainly never did! 😊👍
You just made me think of something. When I was a lad, I worked in a shop doing oil changes and simple repairs. One thing a lot of people may not realize is that there were a lot of cars in the 50's and 60's that did not have self-adjusting brakes. Part of the routine when doing an oil change was adjusting the brakes. That is something to consider if you are choosing a classic car as a daily driver. Cars that did not have the brakes regularly adjusted would not necessarily be apparent to the driver but if the brakes got wet driving through a puddle, it may not be able to apply enough braking pressure to stop.
Equipping a 1950s-1960s vintage ride that didn't originally come with self-adjusting rear drum brakes to have them isn't difficult. It's a matter of what will fit on the backing plate. As well as using the correct drum/shoe width.
I can’t seem to go more than 100 miles in my 1950 without one side or the other not engaging properly and it yanking to the right or left. Not a mechanic myself, but it seems to be a problem with the remanufactured slave cylinders.
The simplest answer is to adjust your driving style to the reality of the vehicle , what ever it is. Doesn’t stop like a Formula 1 car, just leave more space, brakes fade on long descents, go slower the entire grade, just do what professional drivers do. No matter what you drive, you always have to adjust for road conditions anyhow.
Yup all these cars with trac control, assisted braking/lane alignment have known to have radar failures, technology doesn't beat not being distracted and driving defensively.
There's no adjusting your driving style to a panic stop... that's what it is by definition. Sure, you might get more skilled at lowering your chance of having a panic stop situation, but you can't avoid them all. Shit happens, shit that is entirely out of your control.
Agreed, assuming the other drivers also agree. My 58’ Ranchero required more room to stop. People would take up my safety buffer. I updated my Ranchero with a 95’Fleetwood frame and drivetrain.
@@northdakotaham1752 and those need have changed over the years. The entire system should be modified to a 1975 or later spec like car to be safe for most of todays driving. Ask my 63 chevy nova with a poorly engineered rear suspension That goes into random speed wabbles at 70mph . This was an engineering flaw from the factory. Need to put track bars on the rear and modify the brakes to make it safe for just about any driving situation on todays roads. One of the reasons I stopped driving it 20 years ago and havent restored it yet. Need to spend lots of $$$ to make it safe.
I have seen a lot of people who wanted a cool old car until they drove it every day. Brakes are a system that unless you have extensive training and experience one should not change. I have converted several cars but I don’t lack experience nor training. Failure is always a problem one has to contend with so having new parts every few years is what you MUST DO to safe. Thank you Chrysler Training Center Kansas City for teaching me brake systems and brake safety. Greetings UT from the high plains of Texas .
We had a mid 80s TBird for a few years. The brakes started giving us trouble. Took it to a "reputable" shop. Two days later the pedal is spongy and down on fluid. Take it back they bleed the system. Two days later its spongy again. This goes on for about a week and a half. Finally I pop the hood in the garage. As Nd start looking for leaks. Master cylinder was fine. Proportioning valve literally 12 inches away had a trail of fluid running down the inner fender. That explains the quotation marks around reputable. And I agree that a lot if people if they drove older cars as daily drivers would realize that a lot of older cars were junk when new.
Tony has a proper set of scales - he can find both total weight, and front/rear weight distribution. That just might be important. I can't think of any tv show putting on shiny new parts they called "upgrade" that weighed the car and did any math for the audience.
For some, yes, leave it alone. If you are competent, make the change. Just consider upkeep costs and availability of replacement parts if you truly want a daily driver.
Except the dual reservoir master.....If you have driven one even with stock drums. dual reservoirs stop better. it is the brake pressure leverage. The pedal is easier and stopping is better in panic situations. Better control. I used to think like tony does but I know better now after doing both.
@@craighansen7594 Yea like Hey I need some new front drums for a 1963 Cadillac....If you can find them? Time to do the whole system upgrade. They were 300 each 30 years ago. Some of these kits use a "like " later model car that you convert the whole thing to. Like a DeVille break system from a 76 or later model Whole system including Master front and rear brakes and proportioning valve. The Hard lines should be replaced anyway on something that old.
my 1963 nova had a Rear leaf spring issue. They roll over and at highway speeds it gets a random speed wabble at 70 you can barely keep it on the road. Happens intermittently. You Need to put track bars on the rear and either coil overs or modify the rear suspension just to make it freeway safe. Stock is not enough for todays roads.
I’ll advocate that people also need to practice braking regardless what vehicle they’re driving. It’s a skill you need especially on something without ABS where you don’t want to just mash the pedal. It’s a great way to see what the car will do when you need to stop quick. Does it lock the fronts? Rears? Just one wheel? Does it stay stable? Can you modulate the brakes so they don’t just stay locked? Can you brake hard enough to actually lock the wheels?
I agree with most of what you are saying with one exception, your take on dual circuit braking system. I had a Buick with a single system and I rebuilt the entire system, using new wagner parts, new shoes (not drums because they were just too much cost) and hardware. Bent the lines, and flared them myself. Pressure bled the system, adjusted the brakes properly. Took it out for a 30 mile ride. Did a number of stops then did a couple of panic stops, the brakes were perfect. So a week later, I went out for a ride, came up to a light, turned yellow and did a hard stop, the the peddle went to the floor, I blew through a red light and almost hit a cop car. What happened is this - the back brake hose was defective. It split right down the middle and I could not build up pressure. So since that time, I will not have a car with a single circuit braking system, even on a very early chrsyler product. My 65 Corvair and 1959 jeep when they are gone through (not road ready yet) will have dual circuit braking because if I can't trust a Wagner part from 1975, how in the hell can I trust a chinese or Mexican made part today. By the way, I do have a chevy which has a mechanical braking system, I don't have a doubt that won't stop.
There's a very good reason dual circuit brakes came in and you found out the reason why; also, weight transfer rear brake lock up is the reason that every vehicle now has ABS braking.
Dual circuits have saved my ass twice. Tony's take on that is one of inexperience. His problems have always been predictable. When a brake line let's go, you lose all pressure in that circuit immediately and permanently. Thank God for dual circuit brakes.
The best brake upgrade I ever did was a complete setup from another vehicle. Master cylinder, brake calipers rotors, lines, everything from the donor car because it was all meant to work together.
If you're going to convert anything then do the complete matching system. One thing I remember about drum brakes is they work worse in the rain as opposed to disc.
They also have to be perfectly adjusted to brake evenly; I remember an all drum brake car I had as a teenager and each brake came on at a different rate when I braked; I thought it was fun..
Disk brakes don't work well when wet either so it depends on that. Drums can be more grabby but that's not a given. I remembered the first 2i drove a power brake with disks. Good thing we were wearing seatbelts.
My only caveat would be upgrading the wheels. Only for the sake of ease of getting tires. 14” rim tires are not nearly as common as they used to be. Switching to 15 or 16” rims will make getting tires in an emergency and availability. Most tire shop won’t have many 14” tires or any at all. Better brake pads are a good idea (not upgraded brakes like drum to disc or stock discs to willwood). Just more aggressive pads over the stock style pads. But beyond that you should be fine with most cars. Be prepared to wait for parts if you need them. Also pick a common car (not just make). Picking a corvair and getting parts will be a lot harder or a longer wait vs a first Gen camaro. Make sure it has a strong aftermarket support. Something that you can find parts for in any parts store. And be prepared to learn to do stuff yourself and how to do it on the side of the road.
I imagine that profile can be toyed with to keep that overall diameter the same. I have used many online calculators for this and much daydreaming for the wheels I would like to have.
Given the shorter profile of modern 16" wheels, you can probably keep the tires/wheels within the fenders, but be prepared to flare them out. If "original" is important ("numbers matching" resto), then you simply have to go with what the car came with from the factory. Getting 13" or 14" tires isn't THAT hard, but you can't just pop into a Wal-Mart and drive out with new 'skins.
Another issue I run into is the opening in the rim for the hub. The factory steel rims match up perfectly. But all aftermarket rims are literally for trucks. I'm told Cougar XR7 rims don't have this central hole so it does not really matter. But I like the insurance of having the perfectly mated assembly.
series I reserch the tire diameter when switching from 14" to 15". Easy to find the charts online. I usually go from a 70 - 78 series 14" tire to a 60 - 65 series 15" tire.
I owned a 1980 corolla and they had 13" wheels. I think they gave me trailer tires for that because that was all walmart had. My current truck had 17" stock and I went to 18". I want to go back to 17" because that's what the truck was ment to have. I got the truck with 20" and I don't like big bling wheels. I don't really like anything over the factory spec.
I'm one of the people the original video was intended for. Tony was clear where he was coming from. Reminded me of the talks I have on electric guitar and amp forums. Modding is a favorite past time of guitarists too. Often things are just best left alone.
Tony, you are absolutely correct about the brakes. Go take one of your XJ’s out and stand on the brakes. The rears will not lock up. This is to keep it from swapping ends, like you said. 😉
If you're going to change braking systems, you *must* use everything as an entire *system,* as it was intended, swapping out *_all_** of the parts* from the original system to match whatever system you're transitioning to from within that same model range.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 True, and on some cars its about 0.80:1 to the front. This varies a lot on vehicle geometry from the factory, of course, though. So what will work on a station wagon will not necessarily work on a 2 door muscle car.
I think the chip foose resto mod era of the early 2000’s made everybody think they HAD to have disc brakes which led to everyone converting but not always doing it to level that was actually needed to function properly. I had a 4 door 67 Malibu with manual drums, spent a couple days replacing MC , wheel cylinders, shoes, rubber lines, the works and that car stopped beautifully
If you have a late sixties early 70s car and want to DD it at hwy speeds - read 80 mph - the issue isn’t horsepower vs brakes but your cars ability to brake compared to modern day vehicles ability to brake. Obviously better- modern- rubber helps a lot but braking upgrades - done with all four wheels braking in mind - is pretty important.
I upgraded my 1971 / 72 skylarks to power disc brake on the front. Changed the proportioning valve and have driven them in every road condition here in upstate NY. I even put heavy sways bars front and rear. I drive them daily .. rain or shine… A few times in the snow when I was caught off guard. Zero issues.. even on a road course with police recruits chasing me in patrol cars… one year with non power drum brakes.. the next year with “stock” power disc conversion… the lap times and the oh “ s&#t” factor proved to me I rather drive the car with the PROPERLY converted disc.. I understand what you are saying.. and I agree stock daily driving… ok… adequate…. But in my opinion… that’s it… adequate.. I agree 98% of the time with you and have learned and confirmed a lot of things I’m doing right or wrong by watching you. I can’t totally agree on brake conversion deal…
I said it on the last one and I'll say it again. Thank you. I'm the guy who doesn't know anything, or just enough to be dangerous, that needs to hear this.
Most of us are. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know shit 😂 that's life though isn't it. That said, I'll trust a guy who I know lives and breathes cars his whole life over an anonymous comment online.
Thanks for responding to my question/comment. One tip I'd say is that if you're looking for an old car, pick the best in the series. When they make a car for a few years, get the best year of the bunch.
I'm surprised people don't know to put in a proportioning valve when swapping to front discs. Should be self explanatory, but I guess there are plenty that just don't think about it. My car had front discs swapped in, and the prop valve and booster setup was already in, but rusted to pieces from sitting so long. New everything front to back fixed that. Still factory rear drums, stops good, no squirreliness or drama.
The best thing I learned from Gene Berg is if you want a daily driver you want it as stock as possible. Maybe some mild correct modifications from the inside out. Don't just throw on a Turbo or cams Because its Not going to last. Keep it stock. It was built that way for a reason. Great Video.
i assume that's Gene Berg who hot rodded VW's and sold shifters and other parts? Admittedly, i think pushing an economy car past its 36 hp is probably asking for a more rigorous maintenance schedule, even if Dr. Ferdie Porsche got some ideas for a sports car :) I would argue about adding cams and a turbo--i'm sure you are trying to keep your post brief and thus you made a generality, but Chevy did pretty good taking a 350 cid small block engine and adding a hot cam into it to make a Z28 or Corvette that lasted quite a while. and now we have quite a few turbo engines out there trying to replace the V8. we can do it IF we know WTF, and i figure you know that. too many get greedy, and forget it's a daily driver that may hit 80mph out on an open highway--how much boost and hp does that really require? the best mods for a daily driver's power plant will focus on efficiency. that'll get some extra grunt, and lengthen the time between trips to the gas station. and single pot master cylinders really need to get tossed :)
@@albertgaspar627That hot cam 350 that took it from 250hp to 300hp? If you go to an actually hot cam it becomes hard on the rest of the valve train and can cause durability problems. And, even factory stock most turbo engines have a shorter service life than the larger naturally aspirated engines. You’re stressing an engine harder so it’s going to tend to wear out quicker. With modern vehicles it can be difficult to modify them for better efficiency as they’re so good from the factory. You’ll often get larger improvements in efficiency with changes in driving habits.
@@NBSV1 considering the heat and friction a valve spring sees, it's not a bad idea to replace it even on a stock rebuild of a high mileage setup. and of course Chevy had a solution to the 30-30 cam and what it did to a valvetrain :) there are factory stock turbo engines that go for a long while assuming the owner does proper maintenance. diesels come to mind. of course they are built a certain way, and someone who wants to slap a turbo onto any engine, better know to pick a strong block, use a forged crank and pistons and rods, good bearings, etc. the average poke slapping an evilbay turbo on a junkyard LS, yeah, they're a hand grenade with the pin pulled. but that's probably not a daily driver unless its someone who can't afford anything else. and frankly, having been a broke college student once, i can tell you even buying a stock car when you are at that economic level...it ain't lasting long :) totally agree about the driving habits. i've seen enough people lay pedal to accelerate up to a stop sign...i mean...wtf? did you not know what you're going to do at a stop sign?
@@albertgaspar627 Yep, I kept my comment short. The person who bought my Van most likely blew up the motor because the timing was put into a range that was not in their books because of my mild modifications working with the Berg family. Gene Berg is a legend in the VW 1600 world. I have read so much of his technical data and the business is still working today. he warned if your going to slap on bigger jugs and large valve heads you need to start by boring the case to build up what you want to put on top. Otherwise it is not going to last. That's what I did. Even the blueprinted shot peen rods and barrel shims machined to let me run mid grade by lowering compression and not loosing power. I feel sick when I talk about it because I put almost 10,000 into that motor and Van I restored myself. Sold the whole van for $1,700 back in 2007 before the craze because I had started a family. I just stick to my Honda's and Toyota's now. Peace. At least they have good heat. I did drive my Van over 15,000 mile before I sold it and it was awesome. Never overheated in the mountains. Low end Powerhouse.
Another thing you really don’t want to do is buy an already modified vehicle for a daily, especially one with undocumented parts swapped onto it. It makes finding replacement parts infuriating to track down when they inevitably wear out. You might even be told “it’s got (blank) from a Chevy Nova” but there can be a big difference if it’s a 65 or a 75 depending on the part.
Those are basket cases, only responsible people list the mods, it be like me converting from a 4.8 to 6.0, the RPO code should change technically, same if i go from rear drum to big rear disc.
Modifications are a bad deal if buying a vehicle of any kind. They actually decrease the value of the vehicle and most owners don't like to accept that. I have removed that stuff before to put factory parts back on.
@@Soundsofthewood same, I work at a dealership and every aftermarket part I list on a trade in drops the value especially when they don’t have the factory parts to go back on
The only normal gotcha with drum brakes is when they get wet from going through a large water puddle they lose substantial braking power. Knowing this, whenever it happens you lightly ride the brakes for a while to dry them out. No big deal. But when only one wheel gets wet, you knew it was gonna take off on you if you braked hard. The key is just knowing the limitations and addressing it promptly.
I've had drum brakes pull to one side or the other on the front, new shoes and proper adjustment cured the problem in both cases..I have ALSO had front disc brakes that have done the same thing!..multiple cases over the years...one caliper squeezing harder than the other...replacing the calipers cured the problem...
A slight tangent but still applicable to the brake theme, I race a 1990 Mazda Miata with stock small brakes. It is a dedicated track car. I've done up to 25 hour endurance races (NASA's 25 hours of Thunderhill) as well as many other endurance to sprint races using 100% stock brakes with upgraded pads and fresh DOT 3 fluid with no issues. If there was any performance or safety advantage to upgrading the brakes, I would have done it but in my case, it would be a waste of my money for no gains.
I run a 68 F 350 dually . Love to drive it and will keep it stock. With that being said it takes a 4 lane highway to do a u turn and the braking ....oh boy be on your toes. I think you were correct with 70s getting the go to for the stock ride daily drivers for the average guy.
I taught my fiancee to drive a stick with My '71 F350 dually work truck with my homemade fugitive from a lumberyard 8' bed .No rear shocks to control wheel hop. She could drive anything after that!
The main problem with drum brakes is that most people don't understand how they work, or how to maintain them. I work at a collision repair/body shop. And long story short. The mechanic had to change out some damaged drum brakes. He had no clue how to get them apart, what to replace or how to reassemble and adjust them. I had to do it for him and show him how to do it. I still don't think he could do it by himself. That, and all the car shows tell you that converting from drums to discs is the best first step to make a classic car drivable. Because the aftermarket supports these shows. It's all about selling you things you don't need. Just like everything else...
Great video, Tony - cars are designed as systems with many interrelated functions. Without the kind of knowledge you have many of us are just pissing in the dark. I will add something that hasn’t been raised and nibbles away at the back of my mind whenever I drive classic vehicles in modern conditions. And that is that the crashworthiness and passenger protection is abysmal in most of the cars we love. I have to be aware that I’m greatly increasing my chances of dying in an accident because my classic is likely going to fold up like a soggy pizza box in a major collision as I’m impaled by the steering column and the drivetrain takes up the space my legs used to occupy. Not sure if this will be followed up by my neck breaking over the low back bucket seat or not. Not a pleasant thought but the risk is real. I’ve installed four point harnesses to keep my teeth in my face in the event of a minor to moderate collision but beyond that even the best steering, brakes, and suspension upgrades won’t mean a thing. The best we can hope those mods done right might lower the chance of that accident. That and extremely defensive, sensible driving habits
I’ve daily driver my 70 GTO for over 40 years, along with quite after of my other Pontiacs. I couldn’t agree more about keeping things as stock as possible. Little things like breaking down, and needing to go to a parts store. Most parts stores are limited on performance parts. As for brakes, I shoved a Pontiac 455 in 73 ford Courier truck , and did need some more brake. Truck just felt nose heavy, and felt like you were stopping, yet the thing also felt like it was pushing through the brakes. Engine was actually forward about 6 inches as it wouldn’t fit without cutting the firewall.I had to also mount the radiator in the bed, and drilled a series of three inch holes for cooling. It looked bad ass, but was a pain in the ass as a street truck!
Great video Tony. I started watching it, then switched and watched yesterday's video before coming back to watch this one. I have a 1975 MGB that I drive as a "daily driver" when I can through spring/summer/fall here in Ontario Canada. I've kept up maintenance on it on my own and the only thing I've really added as an improvement are K&N filters. I rarely take it on major highways (100 km/h or 60 miles per hour.) The reason for that is it has the original 1800 engine with +/- 95 horsepower. It's ok going 100km/h but it revs pretty high. TBH, I'd much rather take the side roads and enjoy the ride anyway. You're spot on, a daily driver vintage vehicle does not need to be upgraded. It's perfect the way it is, just keep up the maintenance and enjoy it.
Some late 1960s to early 1970s did not need a proportioning valve with disc brakes. If the correct master cylinder was used the Ford Mustangs and A-Body Chrysler cars with the Kelsey Hays disc brakes were simple systems. A lot of new drum to disc conversion kits use these old 4 piston design calipers. Whats a bonus with these 4 piston calipers is manual brakes feel almost as if they had a power assist, no need for a vacuum booster.
Wow!! I can't believe that you addressed my comment about the single vs dual circuit master cylinder in such detail. I'm truly impressed. I figure you've probably forgot more about cars than I ever knew, and have been following you for years.
14:04 A note on the drum brakes with regard to pedal effort, the drum brake has an easier pedal effort because the shoes are self-energizing. If you imagine those shoes pushing into the drum, one side is actually drawn into the brake drum by it's own friction. That's why a disc brake takes more effort. That being said, a disc is an overall better design, but Tony's absolutely right, the system needs to be designed right. Again typically that's a power boosted, dual circuit system with a proportioning valve. What size every component needs to be is dependent on the car. The best way to do it is to ensure that any factory style conversion you do matches every factory component. If you've swapped your rear axle for example, and it has bigger brakes that came with it? Guess what, you need to do some engineering.
Correct,Leading & trailing shoes, some cars actually had two lead shoes, a wheel cylinder at the top & one on the bottom, no idea what make or model but I was taught about them at school.
This is correct info sir thank you getting this out to the public cylinder just forces primary shoe into the drum which makes it turn with it forcing the secondary drum against the pin at the top and then forcing the secondary shoe into the drum. Problem with drums as they over heat the drum gets larger thus changing the arc so it's not matching the shoe and brake fade occurs. Rotors do not change their shape just get thicker as they get hot .
Losing your pedal is scary af. I had a front flex line split once on front disc brakes,, no bueno! I got it stopped, then towed home. And yes, I had to change my shorts. NOT a fun time. Preach it UTG! This basic info can save lives.👍
hapened me two tiems already and i have driving witout any brakes beleive me to me its easy..just dont forget you dont ahve brakes,, adn everythings goes well, i have driving 100 kms with no brakes..
Excellent topic... 3 nights ago, I jump into my Dodge diesel, to go to the store... Step on the brake pedal, and I feel it let go... Blew out a front brake hose (thankfully in the driveway) 2 pumps, and there was nothing left. On a second note, I'm building a '72 Chevy Nova as a daily driver. I rebuilt the front end completely. I kept the front drum brakes. At 59 yrs of age, I can honestly say, I have had waaay more problems with front disc brakes, than I have ever had with drums... Keep up the Great Work... 💪💪💪
It's been known in the early Mustang and related Ford car world for decades that one needed the proportioning valve from a manual (or power if one is doing power) brakes front disc car to get the job done correctly. The rear drums typically do not need to be changed because they are already smaller in the 4 drum set up. What is needed is the proportioning valve and usually the master cylinder appropriate for front disc set up being put in. Drums are self energizing and disc are not and it's in the hydraulic metering that issue is solved. If I had car that was front disc converted wrong by a previous owner I would finish the job with the correct other parts rather than deal with the maintenance issues of four wheel drum brakes. When everything is correct they can stop well when something is a little off they start doing scary things.
Great advice. In the 70's I had a 68 300 with 440/727. I'd love to find a nice 68 Newport, even with just a 383, 2 door. I loved the sleek look of this era Chrysler. Hard to find one not costing too much. I'd keep it all stock. It probably would be a somewhat constant job to keep it going but being a car guy and having 50 years overall mechanical experience, no problem for me to do that.
I just learned so much! I’ve got a manual brake 69 F100 and I’m always reading people upgrading to front discs. Interesting as I had incomplete information prior to this video now I feel more educated
Despite me daily driving an 87 S10 with a 4.8L, 700R4, and Ford 8.8 rear end, I agree with you. I’ve put nearly 40K miles on it in the last year and a half, but it’s been 18 months of tweaking, tuning and figuring out all kinds of stuff. It’s been fun, but this is stuff I enjoy.
BOSS,, if possible I would like to do to,, 10inch Drum upgrade... From the stock 9inch.. for ease of Drums replacement and Wheel Patterns, rim size and tire availability.. I know it's a Mopar parts bin swap .
I love your no BS way of explaining things. I agree 1000% on keeping a daily driver bone stock. I drive older ( late 90’s and early 00’s) pickup trucks. I am very strict about putting everything back exactly as it would have came off the assembly line.
Thermo Quad carb. & drum breaks comes to mind. No body ads performance thinking this will ad years over stock. Shorter breaking with disk breaks is the part people are saying tony is wrong in my opinion ?
There’s a little in between that should be addressed. Some great braking upgrades are going from solid to vented rotors (common on 70s VWs) or just a simple pad compound upgrade (mainly just minimizes brake over heating or brake fade). Even outside of brakes there’s OE parts from higher trim levels that can swap out with lower trim cars eg bigger swap bars, stiffer spring etc it’s still factory and sort of stock.
Agree completely. The common upgrade for Tony's mopars is Chrysler Cordoba brakes. Calipers have huge pistons, can take the heat well. The rotors are the largest ,11.75in so they have more swept area . Another thing on mopars is to eliminate the booster on discs. The stock power brakes (and steering) are over assisted like an Imperial. Those boosters always leak anyway and then make farting sounds when you tap the brake pedal
You nailed it solid Tony and like you we've dealt with this stuff for years. My father calls this stuff, "Wing Nut to Lug Nut" because if you change something on a car (like disc brakes) you have to change the Whole System & then fine tune it for your application (none of it is plug and play). It's far more than just slapping on calipers and rotors and calling a day. Also, that proportioning valve is NOT one size fits all, you have to dial it in for the weight, weight transfer, body roll etc etc of the vehicle you are putting it on. You can put pressure gauges on everything, match bore & line sizes, dial it all in for what works on "paper" only to find out it doesn't work At All when you try to stop your car. And Tony is only focusing on one system here. He could do a 100 videos on this topic alone.
The only part that i disagree with for daily driver is brakes. I to am a licenced since 1985 restoring a 51 dodge. It won't be a daily driver I installed front disc brakes, 2 stage master cylinder, combination valve, and booster. I have also installed seat belts. I think these are important upgrades even if you only drive it once in awhile.
People forget that troubleshooting can become quite difficult when you start modifying things. I understand making changes because parts might be hard to come by but like you said youre starting with the wrong car for the purpose. Track parts do not always lend well to daily use. Especially suspension components that can rattle your car apart, like solid mounts. I have always said the same thing about single pot master cylinders. People that say otherwise generally had a bad experience and or get in the car and expect things to work 100% of the time. When swapping brake parts people often thinks it is better because they feel it stops better. Of course it will! You put all new parts in! Heavy Trucks stopped wonderfully for decades with Drums. your 3800lb car with no load except the driver will be alright. Only caveat to this brake part availability, like with some of the early mopars and tapered axle era cars. Great Video, I wish common sense was more common!
I'm restoring a '66 Barracuda. It has drum brakes all around, one master cylinder, and a 273 CID engine. The only mods I want to do is a 4 barrel carb, dual exhaust, and maybe a hotter cam. Therefore, I will keep the original braking system as is and keep it well maintained.
I never understood people saying you need bigger brakes for having higher horsepower on a street car. Are you planning on doing 120MPH now instead of 60 everywhere?
It doesn't need to be "everywhere." You only need to have a catastrophic failure of an inadequate brake system one time for it to blow your whole day.. Fir instance...my "street car" is going to be making somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 horsepower (if I ever finish the damn thing) and capable of 180-ish mph in the 1/4 mile..meanwhile, the front tire patch got tiny, the rear got huge, and the weight bias moved to the rear and overall weight dropped by about a half ton. Stock brakes in this situation would be a hot mess.. An extreme example, but a real one. Another example..my real daily driver is a three decade old 1/2 ton pickup..unlike Tony, I don't have the space, wherewithal, or desire to have one car to drive, one to tow, one for freeway drives, and one for city..so my truck has been optimized to do all of the above with a modified engine, trans, rear axle, suspension, and braking systems..most of which came from various heavier-duty models of the same truck, or later versions of it that featured better systems. I'll give him his due..brakes are like any other system...you can't just upgrade a single component without tailoring the REST of the system to compliment it..that'd be like putting a long-duration high lift cam into an otherwise stock engine.
well, why do you need the higher hp for? other than a "size comparison", you aren't going to do much over 80 mph unless you're out in the flyover states. focus on making the car pretty instead. the real issue with brakes is heat--if you're in traffic, you're going to be using them often. larger surface area may help with dissipation.
The upgrades Ive done for older cars were electrical. The sixties falcons are not bad for running around town but the generators got to be a pain. The alternator just did a better job. Also converting from points made it easier as well. My sister loves her ghia and taking from 6 to 12 volt wasn't an a huge task. The hardest part as I remember was the voltage converter for the wipers. She drove that thing up to go skiing for years.
Been there too, I had gone through the whole system went from disc drum to disc disc. Replaced the master cylinder and proportioning valve along with it. 90 percent of the time it was fine but sometimes under hard stops it would lock up the rears and slide it around. I went to an adjustable proportioning valve because even the disc/disc proportioning valve it wasn’t right.
Definitely..if you go with front disc..make sure you go to power brakes and a proportioning valve. Brakes are very important..who cares how fast that car can go..can it stop!
Mr uncle Tony's garage guy you are a legend I've learned so much don't know how to thank you watching your videos over the years when I first got into the cars engrade 11 I remember when my Grandpa gave me an old truck it was a 85 Chevy C30 my grandpa and all my family told me I could never get it up and going and watch your videos just like with the vise grip and Nick's garage and I remember I got the motor on stock and I remember working on it and I remember when I first fired it up
I cringe to think that anyone would convert to front disks without using a proportioning valve. Tony is right, the car will swap ends on a curve or very easily on a panic stop. I converted my '64 Dodge Polara 426 Street Wedge to front disks and I'm happy with it... because I did it correctly using a Mopar disk/drum master cylinder, Mopar disk brakes and the correct spindles, and an adjustable proportioning valve. Also before driving it on the street I did several braking tests to set the proper rear brake bias on the proportioning valve. Stops very well with no tendency to swap ends. Know how braking systems work before just jumping in.
Bought a 70 Challenger R/T over the summer with manual drum brakes. The previous owner gave me a disk brake conversion kit he intended to install but never got around to it. Think I'm keeping the original eleven inch drums and selling the conversion kit.
OK... I'm a retired dealer/racer/shop owner, and my daily driver is a 1988 model, with some enhancements. No matter the car, you should really upgrade the tires, brakes and suspension if you are going to drive it daily. These components REALLY affect the safety of the car. A daily driver doesn't need to be faster, but it should be able to stop and steer accurately. These mods are also fairly inexpensive and wheels/tires can even be sourced second-hand. I enjoy the videos...and I'm even older than you! I've also been to Cuba several times, and my head spins when I think about Americans going down that road. Those guys are innovative! When I owned a motorcycle dealership, I had a mechanic who'd grown up in South America, and he could FIX almost anything. I loved him and asked how he came by this skill. "Oh, that's simple; there just ARE NO parts in Peru. You have to fix stuff, or just start taking it apart for scrap." I've never known another mechanic who had this skill to that extent.
THANKS FOR SHARING TONY,,, Part 1,,Two weeks ago I lost braking on my 05 GMC 1500 Pickup ,,due to rusted line on cross-over rearend ,,Yup after I had replaced ALL Hard lines front to back n soft lines front n rear with new calipers n brake rotors ,,But didn't get to rearline on the rt axle because of plans to replace complete rear with posi ,,And you know the unexpected always can n will get U,,Yes it has a duel system & I imediately pulled over ,,checked fluid n filled rear reservoir (ALWAYS CARY BRAKE FLUID) Nursed IT HOME N Fixed the next day with new line ,,Now whole system is New Part 2 Years ago my Son & I fully restored n rebuilt 69 Mustang Fastback,,ALL New Lines Soft n Hard & All new wheel Cyl n Brake Shoes ,,Had a Single Brake Res,,We finished it all was good Daily Driver & I Had a Power-brake Unit left over from another project ,,So I Decided To use it on the Mustang ,,Put it on & NEARLY PUT MYSELF THRU THE WINDSHEILD On first trip out the driveway Lol,,So investigated n Put Porportional valve into system to balance the braking N All was Great,,But The POINT IS DO YOUR HOME-WORK N INVESTIGATE ,,ANY SAFETY SYSTEMS IN DRIVE LINE ,,THANKS AGAIN TONY,,Hopefully We can Keep Folks Safe from Our Experience
Mitchel overdrive with a high compression head makes the model A run a safe speed in the 21st century. Its good modifications on a very cheap classic car.
Simple logic would tell anyone that if your brake system is strong enough to lock the wheels you dont "need" any more braking power. Now there are reasons why you'd want to swap in bigger brakes or do disc conversion and that is usually to make braking system more resilient to heat and allow one to brake longer (or perhaps more often) before brakes fade due heat. Other reasons might be parts availability, looks or maybe decreasing unsprung mass. When swapping out components one should be aware not to change brake balance too much (there are ways to calculate theoretical breaking power of given set up) or it can lead to situation Tony described, where rears get way too much breaking power and lock up or alternatively fronts get even more which leads to actually decrease in breaking power because rears will brake less. Manufacturers tend to make brakes front bias heavy in the first place to make handling characteristics safer and more predicable in all conditions. Also note that drum brakes are "self boosting" in a way and engineers have calculated this in, so care should be taken if you are going to swap from one style to another.
I was 9 years old in '71, but it still blows my mind to this day, that my grandfather walked on the lot at the Dodge dealership, and purchased a new 4 door Coronet Custom with a 318 among all those gorgeous Mopars that were there. I get it, He was an older conservative man, but wow, to me it was like he said "which is the least desirable car that you have here" LOL Don't get me wrong, when I got the car I had it for about 7 years, when it was already 10 years old, and the engine was one of the best ever built, but the dreams of a '71 Challenger will always be there in my mind.
Any modifications should be tested driven to see what happens in a safe area to see the affect. To much rear braking in the rear will make it slide. That's why drifting cars have separated front and rear braking systems.
Great new video. I still see what you mean and you made a lot of great points about people upgrading their brakes to discs. Most people don’t realize that the tire friction is usually the weak point and not the ability for the braking system to stop. One of the main reasons modern performance cars have big brakes is more for brake fade from heat and not actually stopping the tires. More mass equals more heat transfer and less inconsistency. Keep up the great work. Love your videos.
I basically follow you thoughts. EXCEPT when the manufacturer makes improvements to the same vehicle in later model years or obvious weak points. For example adding electric fueling to a OBS ford Powerstroke or changing injector styles on a LB7 Duramax which is a known weak point.
I'm in agreement with you. I used to have a '63 Dart with a 170 Slant and a '71 Pinto as my daily drivers. I left them as stock as could be and just drove them in accordance with their capabilities. Same with my current '67 Galaxie. I added a 4-barrel to wake up the little 289, but left the rest of it alone.
Hey Tony, Tim here, yea told ya about my manual front disc conversion on my '64 Tempest, as i watched this vid, i realized, it IS geared for the regular Joe.....my sytem works extremly well, but i'm a gear head, swapped in the proper prop vlv, etc, and even have the rear shoes backed off a bit for when i'm in the burnout box, so the 2nd hit on the pedal is always better, but its NOT a daily, its a Hot Rod, and went to front disc for shut down area braking power at the dragstrip, so, i'm knowledgable of the system, knew what i was tryin to achieve, and made SURE all the proper pieces were in place....NOT what YOU were tryin to get across, i have to say, FOLKS, LISTEN TO UNCLE TONY!!!...HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKIN ABOUT!!!!.....his vid was about a driver....NOT a race car/hot rod, and MY upgrades were done with thought, and understanding of what i was trying to achieve......sorry, wanted to clarify a bit....GREAT content Tony, just wish more folks wud understand what ur sayin sometimes, so we wudnt have to clarify.....PEACE to you sir!!
Always enjoy your talks Tony! I'm old school too, even older actually, but you can see where I'm coming from. I spend most of my time watching you and chuckling. It's all SO true, and SO common sense, obvious to us as gearheads, but not so to a lot of people. Even ones who claim to be car people, they can be worst of all, many times are. Those hacks you and Kiwi point out so well. You guys do a tremendous service to tthe sport, hobby, addiction, whatever y'all call it. I just recently, within days in fact, have had a go round with a friend, over brakes. Ironic, eh? All I'll say is the man has never owned a car without at least Bendix brakes. He just bought one with Lockheeds, nuff said? Would you spend money on Lockheed brakes on something you wanted to cruise regularly in? Purpose, you're right on as always! I rest my case. Thanks!
Right. Great Advice. I just picked up a 289 1966 Galaxie 500. I love it. But I had to drive it 1700 miles home. The suspension needs to be done. I ended up in the truck lane on the mountains. It's mostly stock. But it made it and it was hell of a road trip. I don't have the time to really work on it. It ran fine stock. No major issues.
Great vid, Tony....esp. the description of the disc brake conversion and proportioning/metering valves. I don't mess around with my '98 K1500 single cab...I maintain it, even baby it, but I won't modify it. Stock is dependable, as it was designed to be.
As someone that has used 30 year old (at the time) late 60's cars for both hot rods and daily drivers I can vouch that Tony is right. The hot rods were weekend cars but the daily driver worked best left close to stock. My 4 door 69 Valiant was mostly stock and served me well for almost 10 years. I did convert the front to a stock disk setup from a Dart a few year newer and some nice looking aftermarket 14 inch rims. Loved that car.
im not getting a new toyota prado.... ill stick with the 4.2td GU nissan patrol all jacked up and 300hp.... stock stantard is best for a daily driver.... i just went through 4 alternators due to mods
Why has NOBODY even mentioned residual pressure valves? A hell of a lot of drum brake cars have them, and if you convert to disc without addressing this disc brakes will drag, get hot, and fade like hell.
First: Aluminum Heads, Aluminum dual plain intake, AED Carb, 15x8's all around with Radials[maybe 15x10s or 12s in the back], Aluminum 4 row radiator, LED bulbs all around(not headlights), and leve stock until something breaks or needs a rebuild..... Then rebuild with CR 10.8 to 1 minimum, Nice street torque cam, DUI Performance ignition, new fuel tank, disc breaks all around, upgarde trans parts or new trans, UPGRADE entire suspension with QA1 parts..... Then drive to Tony's and show him what you did :-) ... **Always remember, engineers always made upgrades from year to year.
Tony, in some countries it is illegal to modify street vehicles unless you are a tuning company and the modifications are figured out by a profesdional engineer. In case, in France, you cannot put different size tires on a car. In the 80s and early 90s l gad two different French cars. They both drove and rode very well. Under powered but what wasn't then. And they were both hemis.
Had a 97 Century someone had redone the brake line that runs front to back and left off that little valve under the left rear door. You had to really be easy on the pedal on slippery roads or the ass would lock up real easy. I had a Grand Prix which is essentially the same car, W body GM, that had 4 wheel disc and didn't use the valve on the rear line.
Like anything else in engineering, it all depends on application. Live in a mountainous region with steep roads? Well then, drum brakes that expand and lose stopping power due to excessive heat might not cut it. Power mods on an old daily too can make a lot of sense. Keeping up with modern traffic in any car made before 2000 can be a neat trick. Just saying "keep it stock" means nothing if you consider the technology and time the old cars were developed with/for
Did a 4 wheel disc conversion on my 67 Mustang many moons ago (2002). Installed an adjustable proportioning valve. Went to an area clear of traffic, accelerate, slam on brakes, adjust valve until no lock up and an "even" braking feel.
Got a 70 roadrunner with a 512 wedge that runs 9s with manual drums on all 4 corners, i love it, manual steering and valve body too, never had a problem... Been driving it on the street for almost 30 years.
Working on my 56 Plymouth I inherited from my dad..the brake system was shot and hard to get parts - so converting to disc all around. Definitely has been a learning experience. Making brake lines, replacing master cylinder, changing spindles...it's a process.
Thank you for the video uncle tony. People never believed me when I would say that factory drum brakes are better in general. Almost no one did the conversion correctly. Also think about why semi trucks have drums all around. Only a handful of years have we seen disks on semis.
When I first met my wife she had just bought her moms 67 mustang had the exact problem you talk about. The in laws had added front disc brakes but never dialed in the rear brakes so they were locking up first. That was the first thing I fixed on that car.
Thank you for making these videos. I’ve been on the fence about converting my 66 impala to disc brakes. I’ve now decided I’ll just refresh the drum brakes.
Converted my 81 c10 to disc in front and just put all new OE components (drums) in the rear. New proportioning valve. Tony is right. Its been hell dialing in the breaking feel. Back locks up way easier and faster than the front. Its getting better but its not there yet.
I agree with everything you said yesterday, BUT any A body with 4 9" drums is where I draw the line. That was a leftover from the "pre interstate days" you spoke of. 10s on them are great though.
You're stealing my thunder. I agree 100% I am planning on doing a similar video myself. I daily a 66 Falcon. All stock with 4 wheel manual drum brakes. I have no intention of ever changing them. I will just continue to take care of them. The complete package works well together. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.
Uncle Tony you are right. I never considered myself as a master mechanic. But I guess I am. I have built Mopars since I was 17 years old in the late 70s. I have always like the stock look with enhancements done on stance and brakes. But I always cammed the engines and added a toned mufflers. I weekly drive my 70 340 built Challenger. Just around town. No more than 30 miles out. 4:10 gears and 2800 stall is limiting my trip. I too have other cars for longer trips. Soon I will be Street driving my built 440-6 GTX. I bet it will be just a little less than my 340. The 340 gets 12-14 miles per gallon. 440 might get 10. Thanks for reassuring me that I am not alone. Just stubborn and set in my ways.
One of the things I love with daily driving an old car is the simplicity. I drive a 50s Volvo Amazon, and have been able to do service and maintenance with simple hand tools. It isn't a rocket, but still drives just fine in modern traffic. Fits me very well. I'm good at following along the service and repair documentation from the manufacturer and prefer to keep it stock because of this. However, I'm one of those that have to "upgrade" the brakes out of necessity. Consumable parts are discontinued for my model year. After a lot of thought, I chose to go with the most common brake configuration, which is the mid 60s front disc and rear drum with manual adjustment. The thought being that parts for that configuration should be available for many years to come still. Volvo did issue a service bulletin in the 60s which describes a disc brake retrofit, which I'm using as a template. Unfortunately, after hearing from other owners and doing more reading on the subject, I found that Volvo themselves had trouble with the rear drums locking up before the front discs. Later models came with a pressure regulator to reduce the rear brake pressure. The modern solution is to instead install rear brake cylinders with a smaller bore. I'm one of those average people with no extensive knowledge on the subject. The brake situation did make me feel uneasy, but at least I'm aware it was a problem then, and could be a problem now. I just have to do some careful testing and take appropriate steps to remedy it once I've done the retrofit.
Perfect example. I converted my 1967 VW Baja Bug from Drum to Disc Brakes, The Baja will now stop in less distance using 1 single disc brake than it would with all 4 drums. Having all wheel disc with a proper front rear bias on them the Baja stops very well if feels like it is grabbing the ground. Bias is correct so it does not squat in the rear or nose dive in the front car stays level to the ground. I just like the idea that the car stops so much better than it dead with drums. The Baja is not driven much over 60 mph.
It's not a common thing to do. Plus you would need to completely redo the system and that requires a ecu or computer to run ABS, if you're thinking it'll just work on some carbed joint. Who's going to buy a standalone ecu just for the brakes?
@@ItsDaJax Good point. I admit I'm more familiar with late 80s era where ABS was available as an option (owned one once that had it). At that time even though the engines were computer controlled fuel injection, other stuff like that were separate modules. They had to be because the engine ECM only had the computing capability of a Commodore 64, they couldn't handle any additional load on their own plus it wasn't a requirement yet. I'm looking at getting a late 70s, early 80s car as a daily but I've never driven without ABS.
@@0utc4st1985 Even new cars use modules to talk to the ecu. All the ecu does is engine management- it's in its name. There's usually a separate computer for abs, traction control, yaw control, etc, it tells the ecu if there's an issue, and in some cars, a drivetrain control module- usually awd cars. That's why cars with bare minimum abs or abs/traction control will just tell the ecu to retard timing or close the throttle in aid. Not having it ain't the end of the world. I've had three vehicles without abs, and the rest of them, it didn't even work.
UTG, not to be crass here but if you didn't have a channel to showcase your knowledge, tips, and overall experience; you would be laughed out of any and every Cars & Coffee in the USA.
Happened in my 86 Firebird, pedal was spongey with little travel. Only got a few houses down from my house, immediately turned around and parked it. Luckily I only had to replace the master cylinder. I remember when you posted the video about stopping a car when the throttle sticks. I kid you not it happened to me a week after you posted it, but I remember what you said 1. Kill power, 2. Down Shift. Luckily my brakes also helped me gradually slow down. Being a 24 years old I feel that driving an older car makes me a better driver, because I don’t have time to be distracted by a phone. I’m looking at gauges, and feeling the car as it goes down the road. This was another educational video, your really helping young guys like me keep these old girls rolling.
I hate to break it to you but.... there is little something called Ncap..... when you see those cars in actual crashes I would not recommend to anyone to use car that old. They seem to be mobile coffins if something hits you. This comes from person who loves, smell of gasoline, oil, sounds, power it produces everything. But still.... Safety is important and there isnt any.
Take a crash in a old car any day of the week bub. You prolly think the government is here for our best interest to. Pssh sit down ncap
@@kylecromp319 Really ? You going to ignore the safety of modern cars as if you never seen crash test of older car and jump to insults ? Governments on the other hand.... yeah I dont feel to highly either ;)
1000% agree I can’t tell you how much more aware and in tune I am driving due to classic vehicles
Knowing what to do when your foot goes through the firewall, because yeah, that happens.
@@lobobaltazar1322
OMG, Bro! 😮.. I grew up in the 50's, and started with Oldsmobiles and GMs. Fkn deathtraps at any speed! They folded like accordions above 30 mph! Stopping distance at speed, measured in the hundreds of feet!
Even the movies of those boats flopping around used modified suspension and brakes and the best drivers of the time.
Thanks for your comment. Might save someone's life. Those piles of 💩 certainly never did! 😊👍
You just made me think of something. When I was a lad, I worked in a shop doing oil changes and simple repairs. One thing a lot of people may not realize is that there were a lot of cars in the 50's and 60's that did not have self-adjusting brakes. Part of the routine when doing an oil change was adjusting the brakes. That is something to consider if you are choosing a classic car as a daily driver. Cars that did not have the brakes regularly adjusted would not necessarily be apparent to the driver but if the brakes got wet driving through a puddle, it may not be able to apply enough braking pressure to stop.
I have a 1970 shop manual that details and diagrams a traction control system that appears to be all analog.
Equipping a 1950s-1960s vintage ride that didn't originally come with self-adjusting rear drum brakes to have them isn't difficult. It's a matter of what will fit on the backing plate. As well as using the correct drum/shoe width.
I can’t seem to go more than 100 miles in my 1950 without one side or the other not engaging properly and it yanking to the right or left. Not a mechanic myself, but it seems to be a problem with the remanufactured slave cylinders.
Absolutely true. Know your car. Does it have self adjusters? if not, take the time to adjust the brakes at least every oil change
The simplest answer is to adjust your driving style to the reality of the vehicle , what ever it is. Doesn’t stop like a Formula 1 car, just leave more space, brakes fade on long descents, go slower the entire grade, just do what professional drivers do. No matter what you drive, you always have to adjust for road conditions anyhow.
Yup all these cars with trac control, assisted braking/lane alignment have known to have radar failures, technology doesn't beat not being distracted and driving defensively.
There's no adjusting your driving style to a panic stop... that's what it is by definition. Sure, you might get more skilled at lowering your chance of having a panic stop situation, but you can't avoid them all. Shit happens, shit that is entirely out of your control.
Agreed, assuming the other drivers also agree. My 58’ Ranchero required more room to stop. People would take up my safety buffer. I updated my Ranchero with a 95’Fleetwood frame and drivetrain.
traitor. :)@@rickjames3253
@@Sam-go3mbI mean that’s with all cars but I can still panic stop in my 4 drum brake 66 galaxie just fine, it’s called I swerve outta the way
You are one of the few people that actually talks about how serious this stuff is and how hurt or killed you can get.
the problem begins with owners who simply lack common sense and use their vehicle to an extreme it was never intended to be used to achieve.
@@northdakotaham1752 and those need have changed over the years. The entire system should be modified to a 1975 or later spec like car to be safe for most of todays driving. Ask my 63 chevy nova with a poorly engineered rear suspension That goes into random speed wabbles at 70mph . This was an engineering flaw from the factory. Need to put track bars on the rear and modify the brakes to make it safe for just about any driving situation on todays roads. One of the reasons I stopped driving it 20 years ago and havent restored it yet. Need to spend lots of $$$ to make it safe.
Probably not.@@Mikefngarage
I have seen a lot of people who wanted a cool old car until they drove it every day.
Brakes are a system that unless you have extensive training and experience one should not change.
I have converted several cars but I don’t lack experience nor training.
Failure is always a problem one has to contend with so having new parts every few years is what you MUST DO to safe.
Thank you Chrysler Training Center Kansas City for teaching me brake systems and brake safety.
Greetings UT from the high plains of Texas .
1st thing first, research, talk to someone who knows, get all compatible parts together to avoid pitfalls
We had a mid 80s TBird for a few years. The brakes started giving us trouble. Took it to a "reputable" shop. Two days later the pedal is spongy and down on fluid. Take it back they bleed the system. Two days later its spongy again. This goes on for about a week and a half. Finally I pop the hood in the garage. As Nd start looking for leaks. Master cylinder was fine. Proportioning valve literally 12 inches away had a trail of fluid running down the inner fender. That explains the quotation marks around reputable.
And I agree that a lot if people if they drove older cars as daily drivers would realize that a lot of older cars were junk when new.
They would be wrong and should stick with brand new cars.And I would agree a lot of people are cowering weaklings@@mpetersen6
Gotta go with Tony on this one.. the man knows what he’s talking about!! Leave it the heck alone
Tony has a proper set of scales - he can find both total weight, and front/rear weight distribution. That just might be important. I can't think of any tv show putting on shiny new parts they called "upgrade" that weighed the car and did any math for the audience.
For some, yes, leave it alone. If you are competent, make the change. Just consider upkeep costs and availability of replacement parts if you truly want a daily driver.
Except the dual reservoir master.....If you have driven one even with stock drums. dual reservoirs stop better. it is the brake pressure leverage. The pedal is easier and stopping is better in panic situations. Better control. I used to think like tony does but I know better now after doing both.
@@craighansen7594 Yea like Hey I need some new front drums for a 1963 Cadillac....If you can find them? Time to do the whole system upgrade. They were 300 each 30 years ago. Some of these kits use a "like " later model car that you convert the whole thing to. Like a DeVille break system from a 76 or later model Whole system including Master front and rear brakes and proportioning valve. The Hard lines should be replaced anyway on something that old.
my 1963 nova had a Rear leaf spring issue. They roll over and at highway speeds it gets a random speed wabble at 70 you can barely keep it on the road. Happens intermittently. You Need to put track bars on the rear and either coil overs or modify the rear suspension just to make it freeway safe. Stock is not enough for todays roads.
I’ll advocate that people also need to practice braking regardless what vehicle they’re driving. It’s a skill you need especially on something without ABS where you don’t want to just mash the pedal.
It’s a great way to see what the car will do when you need to stop quick. Does it lock the fronts? Rears? Just one wheel? Does it stay stable? Can you modulate the brakes so they don’t just stay locked? Can you brake hard enough to actually lock the wheels?
Excellent and underrated comment! You can buy the tool, doesn't mean you know how to use it!
I agree with most of what you are saying with one exception, your take on dual circuit braking system. I had a Buick with a single system and I rebuilt the entire system, using new wagner parts, new shoes (not drums because they were just too much cost) and hardware. Bent the lines, and flared them myself. Pressure bled the system, adjusted the brakes properly. Took it out for a 30 mile ride. Did a number of stops then did a couple of panic stops, the brakes were perfect. So a week later, I went out for a ride, came up to a light, turned yellow and did a hard stop, the the peddle went to the floor, I blew through a red light and almost hit a cop car. What happened is this - the back brake hose was defective. It split right down the middle and I could not build up pressure. So since that time, I will not have a car with a single circuit braking system, even on a very early chrsyler product. My 65 Corvair and 1959 jeep when they are gone through (not road ready yet) will have dual circuit braking because if I can't trust a Wagner part from 1975, how in the hell can I trust a chinese or Mexican made part today. By the way, I do have a chevy which has a mechanical braking system, I don't have a doubt that won't stop.
Have dual but the front holds fluid, for 2 1/2 years. Burnout machines only.
There's a very good reason dual circuit brakes came in and you found out the reason why; also, weight transfer rear brake lock up is the reason that every vehicle now has ABS braking.
Dual circuits have saved my ass twice. Tony's take on that is one of inexperience. His problems have always been predictable. When a brake line let's go, you lose all pressure in that circuit immediately and permanently. Thank God for dual circuit brakes.
The best brake upgrade I ever did was a complete setup from another vehicle. Master cylinder, brake calipers rotors, lines, everything from the donor car because it was all meant to work together.
If you can lock up the tires or get into ABS, “upgrading” the brakes will do virtually nothing for a single stop. Your tires are the weakest link.
been there and done that, 100 percent you are correct. brake balance is very misunderstood.
If you're going to convert anything then do the complete matching system. One thing I remember about drum brakes is they work worse in the rain as opposed to disc.
They also have to be perfectly adjusted to brake evenly; I remember an all drum brake car I had as a teenager and each brake came on at a different rate when I braked; I thought it was fun..
Disk brakes don't work well when wet either so it depends on that. Drums can be more grabby but that's not a given. I remembered the first 2i drove a power brake with disks. Good thing we were wearing seatbelts.
My only caveat would be upgrading the wheels. Only for the sake of ease of getting tires. 14” rim tires are not nearly as common as they used to be. Switching to 15 or 16” rims will make getting tires in an emergency and availability. Most tire shop won’t have many 14” tires or any at all. Better brake pads are a good idea (not upgraded brakes like drum to disc or stock discs to willwood). Just more aggressive pads over the stock style pads. But beyond that you should be fine with most cars. Be prepared to wait for parts if you need them. Also pick a common car (not just make). Picking a corvair and getting parts will be a lot harder or a longer wait vs a first Gen camaro. Make sure it has a strong aftermarket support. Something that you can find parts for in any parts store. And be prepared to learn to do stuff yourself and how to do it on the side of the road.
I imagine that profile can be toyed with to keep that overall diameter the same. I have used many online calculators for this and much daydreaming for the wheels I would like to have.
Given the shorter profile of modern 16" wheels, you can probably keep the tires/wheels within the fenders, but be prepared to flare them out. If "original" is important ("numbers matching" resto), then you simply have to go with what the car came with from the factory. Getting 13" or 14" tires isn't THAT hard, but you can't just pop into a Wal-Mart and drive out with new 'skins.
Another issue I run into is the opening in the rim for the hub. The factory steel rims match up perfectly. But all aftermarket rims are literally for trucks. I'm told Cougar XR7 rims don't have this central hole so it does not really matter. But I like the insurance of having the perfectly mated assembly.
series I reserch the tire diameter when switching from 14" to 15". Easy to find the charts online. I usually go from a 70 - 78 series 14" tire to a 60 - 65 series 15" tire.
I owned a 1980 corolla and they had 13" wheels.
I think they gave me trailer tires for that because that was all walmart had.
My current truck had 17" stock and I went to 18". I want to go back to 17" because that's what the truck was ment to have.
I got the truck with 20" and I don't like big bling wheels. I don't really like anything over the factory spec.
I'm one of the people the original video was intended for. Tony was clear where he was coming from. Reminded me of the talks I have on electric guitar and amp forums. Modding is a favorite past time of guitarists too. Often things are just best left alone.
You can always get an adjustable proportioning valve and tune it.
Really nice that someone has some complete common sense. So refreshing.
Tony, you are absolutely correct about the brakes. Go take one of your XJ’s out and stand on the brakes. The rears will not lock up. This is to keep it from swapping ends, like you said. 😉
BS
I don't know about xjs but most pick up trucks since the late 80s have some sort of rear only abs to prevent this from happening
Can you imagine going up a 40 degree slope in 4 L and find out your REAR BRAKES ONLY DRAG A LITTLE when you cant make the top!!!!@@kenleppek
I have a 98 xj no rear abs the proporcion valve cuts a lot of pressure to the rear. Its heavly bias toward the front.
If you're going to change braking systems, you *must* use everything as an entire *system,* as it was intended, swapping out *_all_** of the parts* from the original system to match whatever system you're transitioning to from within that same model range.
Finding a whole donor car is handy there.
Dual pot brakes certainly need a proper proportioning valve, because otherwise things are gunna go nutz really fast.
In a dual system, the master pistons can be different diameters.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 True, and on some cars its about 0.80:1 to the front.
This varies a lot on vehicle geometry from the factory, of course, though.
So what will work on a station wagon will not necessarily work on a 2 door muscle car.
I think the chip foose resto mod era of the early 2000’s made everybody think they HAD to have disc brakes which led to everyone converting but not always doing it to level that was actually needed to function properly. I had a 4 door 67 Malibu with manual drums, spent a couple days replacing MC , wheel cylinders, shoes, rubber lines, the works and that car stopped beautifully
If you have a late sixties early 70s car and want to DD it at hwy speeds - read 80 mph - the issue isn’t horsepower vs brakes but your cars ability to brake compared to modern day vehicles ability to brake.
Obviously better- modern- rubber helps a lot but braking upgrades - done with all four wheels braking in mind - is pretty important.
I upgraded my 1971 / 72 skylarks to power disc brake on the front. Changed the proportioning valve and have driven them in every road condition here in upstate NY. I even put heavy sways bars front and rear. I drive them daily .. rain or shine… A few times in the snow when I was caught off guard. Zero issues.. even on a road course with police recruits chasing me in patrol cars… one year with non power drum brakes.. the next year with “stock” power disc conversion… the lap times and the oh “ s&#t” factor proved to me I rather drive the car with the PROPERLY converted disc.. I understand what you are saying.. and I agree stock daily driving… ok… adequate…. But in my opinion… that’s it… adequate.. I agree 98% of the time with you and have learned and confirmed a lot of things I’m doing right or wrong by watching you. I can’t totally agree on brake conversion deal…
I said it on the last one and I'll say it again. Thank you. I'm the guy who doesn't know anything, or just enough to be dangerous, that needs to hear this.
Most of us are. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know shit 😂 that's life though isn't it.
That said, I'll trust a guy who I know lives and breathes cars his whole life over an anonymous comment online.
Thanks for responding to my question/comment.
One tip I'd say is that if you're looking for an old car, pick the best in the series. When they make a car for a few years, get the best year of the bunch.
I'm surprised people don't know to put in a proportioning valve when swapping to front discs. Should be self explanatory, but I guess there are plenty that just don't think about it. My car had front discs swapped in, and the prop valve and booster setup was already in, but rusted to pieces from sitting so long. New everything front to back fixed that. Still factory rear drums, stops good, no squirreliness or drama.
The best thing I learned from Gene Berg is if you want a daily driver you want it as stock as possible. Maybe some mild correct modifications from the inside out. Don't just throw on a Turbo or cams Because its Not going to last. Keep it stock. It was built that way for a reason. Great Video.
i assume that's Gene Berg who hot rodded VW's and sold shifters and other parts? Admittedly, i think pushing an economy car past its 36 hp is probably asking for a more rigorous maintenance schedule, even if Dr. Ferdie Porsche got some ideas for a sports car :)
I would argue about adding cams and a turbo--i'm sure you are trying to keep your post brief and thus you made a generality, but Chevy did pretty good taking a 350 cid small block engine and adding a hot cam into it to make a Z28 or Corvette that lasted quite a while. and now we have quite a few turbo engines out there trying to replace the V8. we can do it IF we know WTF, and i figure you know that. too many get greedy, and forget it's a daily driver that may hit 80mph out on an open highway--how much boost and hp does that really require?
the best mods for a daily driver's power plant will focus on efficiency. that'll get some extra grunt, and lengthen the time between trips to the gas station. and single pot master cylinders really need to get tossed :)
One upside to leaving it bone stock is being better able to find parts when fails away from home.
@@albertgaspar627That hot cam 350 that took it from 250hp to 300hp?
If you go to an actually hot cam it becomes hard on the rest of the valve train and can cause durability problems.
And, even factory stock most turbo engines have a shorter service life than the larger naturally aspirated engines. You’re stressing an engine harder so it’s going to tend to wear out quicker.
With modern vehicles it can be difficult to modify them for better efficiency as they’re so good from the factory. You’ll often get larger improvements in efficiency with changes in driving habits.
@@NBSV1 considering the heat and friction a valve spring sees, it's not a bad idea to replace it even on a stock rebuild of a high mileage setup. and of course Chevy had a solution to the 30-30 cam and what it did to a valvetrain :)
there are factory stock turbo engines that go for a long while assuming the owner does proper maintenance. diesels come to mind. of course they are built a certain way, and someone who wants to slap a turbo onto any engine, better know to pick a strong block, use a forged crank and pistons and rods, good bearings, etc. the average poke slapping an evilbay turbo on a junkyard LS, yeah, they're a hand grenade with the pin pulled. but that's probably not a daily driver unless its someone who can't afford anything else. and frankly, having been a broke college student once, i can tell you even buying a stock car when you are at that economic level...it ain't lasting long :)
totally agree about the driving habits. i've seen enough people lay pedal to accelerate up to a stop sign...i mean...wtf? did you not know what you're going to do at a stop sign?
@@albertgaspar627 Yep, I kept my comment short. The person who bought my Van most likely blew up the motor because the timing was put into a range that was not in their books because of my mild modifications working with the Berg family. Gene Berg is a legend in the VW 1600 world. I have read so much of his technical data and the business is still working today. he warned if your going to slap on bigger jugs and large valve heads you need to start by boring the case to build up what you want to put on top. Otherwise it is not going to last. That's what I did. Even the blueprinted shot peen rods and barrel shims machined to let me run mid grade by lowering compression and not loosing power. I feel sick when I talk about it because I put almost 10,000 into that motor and Van I restored myself. Sold the whole van for $1,700 back in 2007 before the craze because I had started a family. I just stick to my Honda's and Toyota's now. Peace. At least they have good heat. I did drive my Van over 15,000 mile before I sold it and it was awesome. Never overheated in the mountains. Low end Powerhouse.
Another thing you really don’t want to do is buy an already modified vehicle for a daily, especially one with undocumented parts swapped onto it. It makes finding replacement parts infuriating to track down when they inevitably wear out. You might even be told “it’s got (blank) from a Chevy Nova” but there can be a big difference if it’s a 65 or a 75 depending on the part.
Those are basket cases, only responsible people list the mods, it be like me converting from a 4.8 to 6.0, the RPO code should change technically, same if i go from rear drum to big rear disc.
Modifications are a bad deal if buying a vehicle of any kind.
They actually decrease the value of the vehicle and most owners don't like to accept that.
I have removed that stuff before to put factory parts back on.
@@Soundsofthewood same, I work at a dealership and every aftermarket part I list on a trade in drops the value especially when they don’t have the factory parts to go back on
The only normal gotcha with drum brakes is when they get wet from going through a large water puddle they lose substantial braking power. Knowing this, whenever it happens you lightly ride the brakes for a while to dry them out. No big deal. But when only one wheel gets wet, you knew it was gonna take off on you if you braked hard. The key is just knowing the limitations and addressing it promptly.
That could be fixed if one were inclined to drill and or slot the drums to allow water to be flung out from inside the drum.
I've had drum brakes pull to one side or the other on the front, new shoes and proper adjustment cured the problem in both cases..I have ALSO had front disc brakes that have done the same thing!..multiple cases over the years...one caliper squeezing harder than the other...replacing the calipers cured the problem...
A slight tangent but still applicable to the brake theme, I race a 1990 Mazda Miata with stock small brakes. It is a dedicated track car. I've done up to 25 hour endurance races (NASA's 25 hours of Thunderhill) as well as many other endurance to sprint races using 100% stock brakes with upgraded pads and fresh DOT 3 fluid with no issues. If there was any performance or safety advantage to upgrading the brakes, I would have done it but in my case, it would be a waste of my money for no gains.
I run a 68 F 350 dually . Love to drive it and will keep it stock. With that being said it takes a 4 lane highway to do a u turn and the braking ....oh boy be on your toes. I think you were correct with 70s getting the go to for the stock ride daily drivers for the average guy.
I taught my fiancee to drive a stick with My '71 F350 dually work truck with my homemade fugitive from a lumberyard 8' bed .No rear shocks to control wheel hop. She could drive anything after that!
The main problem with drum brakes is that most people don't understand how they work, or how to maintain them.
I work at a collision repair/body shop. And long story short. The mechanic had to change out some damaged drum brakes. He had no clue how to get them apart, what to replace or how to reassemble and adjust them. I had to do it for him and show him how to do it. I still don't think he could do it by himself.
That, and all the car shows tell you that converting from drums to discs is the best first step to make a classic car drivable. Because the aftermarket supports these shows. It's all about selling you things you don't need. Just like everything else...
Great video, Tony - cars are designed as systems with many interrelated functions. Without the kind of knowledge you have many of us are just pissing in the dark.
I will add something that hasn’t been raised and nibbles away at the back of my mind whenever I drive classic vehicles in modern conditions. And that is that the crashworthiness and passenger protection is abysmal in most of the cars we love. I have to be aware that I’m greatly increasing my chances of dying in an accident because my classic is likely going to fold up like a soggy pizza box in a major collision as I’m impaled by the steering column and the drivetrain takes up the space my legs used to occupy. Not sure if this will be followed up by my neck breaking over the low back bucket seat or not. Not a pleasant thought but the risk is real. I’ve installed four point harnesses to keep my teeth in my face in the event of a minor to moderate collision but beyond that even the best steering, brakes, and suspension upgrades won’t mean a thing. The best we can hope those mods done right might lower the chance of that accident. That and extremely defensive, sensible driving habits
I’ve daily driver my 70 GTO for over 40 years, along with quite after of my other Pontiacs. I couldn’t agree more about keeping things as stock as possible. Little things like breaking down, and needing to go to a parts store. Most parts stores are limited on performance parts. As for brakes, I shoved a Pontiac 455 in 73 ford Courier truck , and did need some more brake. Truck just felt nose heavy, and felt like you were stopping, yet the thing also felt like it was pushing through the brakes. Engine was actually forward about 6 inches as it wouldn’t fit without cutting the firewall.I had to also mount the radiator in the bed, and drilled a series of three inch holes for cooling. It looked bad ass, but was a pain in the ass as a street truck!
Great video Tony. I started watching it, then switched and watched yesterday's video before coming back to watch this one. I have a 1975 MGB that I drive as a "daily driver" when I can through spring/summer/fall here in Ontario Canada. I've kept up maintenance on it on my own and the only thing I've really added as an improvement are K&N filters. I rarely take it on major highways (100 km/h or 60 miles per hour.) The reason for that is it has the original 1800 engine with +/- 95 horsepower. It's ok going 100km/h but it revs pretty high. TBH, I'd much rather take the side roads and enjoy the ride anyway. You're spot on, a daily driver vintage vehicle does not need to be upgraded. It's perfect the way it is, just keep up the maintenance and enjoy it.
Some late 1960s to early 1970s did not need a proportioning valve with disc brakes. If the correct master cylinder was used the Ford Mustangs and A-Body Chrysler cars with the Kelsey Hays disc brakes were simple systems. A lot of new drum to disc conversion kits use these old 4 piston design calipers. Whats a bonus with these 4 piston calipers is manual brakes feel almost as if they had a power assist, no need for a vacuum booster.
Wow!! I can't believe that you addressed my comment about the single vs dual circuit master cylinder in such detail. I'm truly impressed. I figure you've probably forgot more about cars than I ever knew, and have been following you for years.
That's so funny, i tell people..."I've forgot more about concrete then you know!"
👍🏻
14:04 A note on the drum brakes with regard to pedal effort, the drum brake has an easier pedal effort because the shoes are self-energizing. If you imagine those shoes pushing into the drum, one side is actually drawn into the brake drum by it's own friction. That's why a disc brake takes more effort. That being said, a disc is an overall better design, but Tony's absolutely right, the system needs to be designed right. Again typically that's a power boosted, dual circuit system with a proportioning valve. What size every component needs to be is dependent on the car. The best way to do it is to ensure that any factory style conversion you do matches every factory component. If you've swapped your rear axle for example, and it has bigger brakes that came with it? Guess what, you need to do some engineering.
Correct; disc brakes definitely need a booster master cylinder.
Correct,Leading & trailing shoes, some cars actually had two lead shoes, a wheel cylinder at the top & one on the bottom, no idea what make or model but I was taught about them at school.
This is correct info sir thank you getting this out to the public cylinder just forces primary shoe into the drum which makes it turn with it forcing the secondary drum against the pin at the top and then forcing the secondary shoe into the drum. Problem with drums as they over heat the drum gets larger thus changing the arc so it's not matching the shoe and brake fade occurs. Rotors do not change their shape just get thicker as they get hot .
Losing your pedal is scary af. I had a front flex line split once on front disc brakes,, no bueno! I got it stopped, then towed home. And yes, I had to change my shorts. NOT a fun time. Preach it UTG! This basic info can save lives.👍
hapened me two tiems already and i have driving witout any brakes beleive me to me its easy..just dont forget you dont ahve brakes,, adn everythings goes well, i have driving 100 kms with no brakes..
@@termonostrumanfix those brakes cmonnn
Excellent topic... 3 nights ago, I jump into my Dodge diesel, to go to the store... Step on the brake pedal, and I feel it let go... Blew out a front brake hose (thankfully in the driveway) 2 pumps, and there was nothing left. On a second note, I'm building a '72 Chevy Nova as a daily driver. I rebuilt the front end completely. I kept the front drum brakes. At 59 yrs of age, I can honestly say, I have had waaay more problems with front disc brakes, than I have ever had with drums...
Keep up the Great Work... 💪💪💪
That was my wife's complaint.. 2 pumps and nothing left.
It's been known in the early Mustang and related Ford car world for decades that one needed the proportioning valve from a manual (or power if one is doing power) brakes front disc car to get the job done correctly. The rear drums typically do not need to be changed because they are already smaller in the 4 drum set up. What is needed is the proportioning valve and usually the master cylinder appropriate for front disc set up being put in. Drums are self energizing and disc are not and it's in the hydraulic metering that issue is solved.
If I had car that was front disc converted wrong by a previous owner I would finish the job with the correct other parts rather than deal with the maintenance issues of four wheel drum brakes. When everything is correct they can stop well when something is a little off they start doing scary things.
Great advice. In the 70's I had a 68 300 with 440/727. I'd love to find a nice 68 Newport, even with just a 383, 2 door. I loved the sleek look of this era Chrysler. Hard to find one not costing too much. I'd keep it all stock. It probably would be a somewhat constant job to keep it going but being a car guy and having 50 years overall mechanical experience, no problem for me to do that.
Love the Newport style. Especially 70-71. Clean. Polaras too. 383 is just fine
I just learned so much! I’ve got a manual brake 69 F100 and I’m always reading people upgrading to front discs. Interesting as I had incomplete information prior to this video now I feel more educated
Despite me daily driving an 87 S10 with a 4.8L, 700R4, and Ford 8.8 rear end, I agree with you. I’ve put nearly 40K miles on it in the last year and a half, but it’s been 18 months of tweaking, tuning and figuring out all kinds of stuff. It’s been fun, but this is stuff I enjoy.
BOSS,, if possible I would like to do to,, 10inch Drum upgrade... From the stock 9inch.. for ease of Drums replacement and Wheel Patterns, rim size and tire availability..
I know it's a Mopar parts bin swap .
DHCC 🐴
@@NathansMoparGarage DEAD HORSES CAR CLUB...
It’s not the right thing to do it’s the FUN thing to do
I love your no BS way of explaining things. I agree 1000% on keeping a daily driver bone stock. I drive older ( late 90’s and early 00’s) pickup trucks. I am very strict about putting everything back exactly as it would have came off the assembly line.
Thermo Quad carb. & drum breaks comes to mind. No body ads performance thinking this will ad years over stock. Shorter breaking with disk breaks is the part people are saying tony is wrong in my opinion ?
Brakes not Breaks...@@ronaldrey8474
There’s a little in between that should be addressed. Some great braking upgrades are going from solid to vented rotors (common on 70s VWs) or just a simple pad compound upgrade (mainly just minimizes brake over heating or brake fade). Even outside of brakes there’s OE parts from higher trim levels that can swap out with lower trim cars eg bigger swap bars, stiffer spring etc it’s still factory and sort of stock.
Agree completely. The common upgrade for Tony's mopars is Chrysler Cordoba brakes. Calipers have huge pistons, can take the heat well. The rotors are the largest ,11.75in so they have more swept area . Another thing on mopars is to eliminate the booster on discs. The stock power brakes (and steering) are over assisted like an Imperial. Those boosters always leak anyway and then make farting sounds when you tap the brake pedal
You nailed it solid Tony and like you we've dealt with this stuff for years. My father calls this stuff, "Wing Nut to Lug Nut" because if you change something on a car (like disc brakes) you have to change the Whole System & then fine tune it for your application (none of it is plug and play). It's far more than just slapping on calipers and rotors and calling a day. Also, that proportioning valve is NOT one size fits all, you have to dial it in for the weight, weight transfer, body roll etc etc of the vehicle you are putting it on. You can put pressure gauges on everything, match bore & line sizes, dial it all in for what works on "paper" only to find out it doesn't work At All when you try to stop your car.
And Tony is only focusing on one system here. He could do a 100 videos on this topic alone.
The only part that i disagree with for daily driver is brakes. I to am a licenced since 1985 restoring a 51 dodge. It won't be a daily driver I installed front disc brakes, 2 stage master cylinder, combination valve, and booster. I have also installed seat belts. I think these are important upgrades even if you only drive it once in awhile.
People forget that troubleshooting can become quite difficult when you start modifying things. I understand making changes because parts might be hard to come by but like you said youre starting with the wrong car for the purpose. Track parts do not always lend well to daily use. Especially suspension components that can rattle your car apart, like solid mounts.
I have always said the same thing about single pot master cylinders. People that say otherwise generally had a bad experience and or get in the car and expect things to work 100% of the time. When swapping brake parts people often thinks it is better because they feel it stops better. Of course it will! You put all new parts in! Heavy Trucks stopped wonderfully for decades with Drums. your 3800lb car with no load except the driver will be alright. Only caveat to this brake part availability, like with some of the early mopars and tapered axle era cars. Great Video, I wish common sense was more common!
I'm restoring a '66 Barracuda. It has drum brakes all around, one master cylinder, and a 273 CID engine. The only mods I want to do is a 4 barrel carb, dual exhaust, and maybe a hotter cam. Therefore, I will keep the original braking system as is and keep it well maintained.
I never understood people saying you need bigger brakes for having higher horsepower on a street car. Are you planning on doing 120MPH now instead of 60 everywhere?
WELL YES YES I AM
It doesn't need to be "everywhere."
You only need to have a catastrophic failure of an inadequate brake system one time for it to blow your whole day..
Fir instance...my "street car" is going to be making somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 horsepower (if I ever finish the damn thing) and capable of 180-ish mph in the 1/4 mile..meanwhile, the front tire patch got tiny, the rear got huge, and the weight bias moved to the rear and overall weight dropped by about a half ton.
Stock brakes in this situation would be a hot mess..
An extreme example, but a real one.
Another example..my real daily driver is a three decade old 1/2 ton pickup..unlike Tony, I don't have the space, wherewithal, or desire to have one car to drive, one to tow, one for freeway drives, and one for city..so my truck has been optimized to do all of the above with a modified engine, trans, rear axle, suspension, and braking systems..most of which came from various heavier-duty models of the same truck, or later versions of it that featured better systems.
I'll give him his due..brakes are like any other system...you can't just upgrade a single component without tailoring the REST of the system to compliment it..that'd be like putting a long-duration high lift cam into an otherwise stock engine.
Me too
well, why do you need the higher hp for? other than a "size comparison", you aren't going to do much over 80 mph unless you're out in the flyover states. focus on making the car pretty instead. the real issue with brakes is heat--if you're in traffic, you're going to be using them often. larger surface area may help with dissipation.
I paid for the whole damn speedometer didn't I???? :D
The upgrades Ive done for older cars were electrical. The sixties falcons are not bad for running around town but the generators got to be a pain. The alternator just did a better job. Also converting from points made it easier as well. My sister loves her ghia and taking from 6 to 12 volt wasn't an a huge task. The hardest part as I remember was the voltage converter for the wipers. She drove that thing up to go skiing for years.
Been there too, I had gone through the whole system went from disc drum to disc disc. Replaced the master cylinder and proportioning valve along with it. 90 percent of the time it was fine but sometimes under hard stops it would lock up the rears and slide it around. I went to an adjustable proportioning valve because even the disc/disc proportioning valve it wasn’t right.
Definitely..if you go with front disc..make sure you go to power brakes and a proportioning valve. Brakes are very important..who cares how fast that car can go..can it stop!
Mr uncle Tony's garage guy you are a legend I've learned so much don't know how to thank you watching your videos over the years when I first got into the cars engrade 11 I remember when my Grandpa gave me an old truck it was a 85 Chevy C30 my grandpa and all my family told me I could never get it up and going and watch your videos just like with the vise grip and Nick's garage and I remember I got the motor on stock and I remember working on it and I remember when I first fired it up
Yup, drum brakes are "Self Energizing" .... Discs are not, that's why they need the power assist.
I cringe to think that anyone would convert to front disks without using a proportioning valve. Tony is right, the car will swap ends on a curve or very easily on a panic stop. I converted my '64 Dodge Polara 426 Street Wedge to front disks and I'm happy with it... because I did it correctly using a Mopar disk/drum master cylinder, Mopar disk brakes and the correct spindles, and an adjustable proportioning valve. Also before driving it on the street I did several braking tests to set the proper rear brake bias on the proportioning valve. Stops very well with no tendency to swap ends. Know how braking systems work before just jumping in.
Bought a 70 Challenger R/T over the summer with manual drum brakes. The previous owner gave me a disk brake conversion kit he intended to install but never got around to it. Think I'm keeping the original eleven inch drums and selling the conversion kit.
OK... I'm a retired dealer/racer/shop owner, and my daily driver is a 1988 model, with some enhancements. No matter the car, you should really upgrade the tires, brakes and suspension if you are going to drive it daily. These components REALLY affect the safety of the car. A daily driver doesn't need to be faster, but it should be able to stop and steer accurately. These mods are also fairly inexpensive and wheels/tires can even be sourced second-hand. I enjoy the videos...and I'm even older than you! I've also been to Cuba several times, and my head spins when I think about Americans going down that road. Those guys are innovative! When I owned a motorcycle dealership, I had a mechanic who'd grown up in South America, and he could FIX almost anything. I loved him and asked how he came by this skill. "Oh, that's simple; there just ARE NO parts in Peru. You have to fix stuff, or just start taking it apart for scrap." I've never known another mechanic who had this skill to that extent.
THANKS FOR SHARING TONY,,, Part 1,,Two weeks ago I lost braking on my 05 GMC 1500 Pickup ,,due to rusted line on cross-over rearend ,,Yup after I had replaced ALL Hard lines front to back n soft lines front n rear with new calipers n brake rotors ,,But didn't get to rearline on the rt axle because of plans to replace complete rear with posi ,,And you know the unexpected always can n will get U,,Yes it has a duel system & I imediately pulled over ,,checked fluid n filled rear reservoir (ALWAYS CARY BRAKE FLUID) Nursed IT HOME N Fixed the next day with new line ,,Now whole system is New Part 2 Years ago my Son & I fully restored n rebuilt 69 Mustang Fastback,,ALL New Lines Soft n Hard & All new wheel Cyl n Brake Shoes ,,Had a Single Brake Res,,We finished it all was good Daily Driver & I Had a Power-brake Unit left over from another project ,,So I Decided To use it on the Mustang ,,Put it on & NEARLY PUT MYSELF THRU THE WINDSHEILD On first trip out the driveway Lol,,So investigated n Put Porportional valve into system to balance the braking N All was Great,,But The POINT IS DO YOUR HOME-WORK N INVESTIGATE ,,ANY SAFETY SYSTEMS IN DRIVE LINE ,,THANKS AGAIN TONY,,Hopefully We can Keep Folks Safe from Our Experience
Mitchel overdrive with a high compression head makes the model A run a safe speed in the 21st century. Its good modifications on a very cheap classic car.
Simple logic would tell anyone that if your brake system is strong enough to lock the wheels you dont "need" any more braking power. Now there are reasons why you'd want to swap in bigger brakes or do disc conversion and that is usually to make braking system more resilient to heat and allow one to brake longer (or perhaps more often) before brakes fade due heat. Other reasons might be parts availability, looks or maybe decreasing unsprung mass. When swapping out components one should be aware not to change brake balance too much (there are ways to calculate theoretical breaking power of given set up) or it can lead to situation Tony described, where rears get way too much breaking power and lock up or alternatively fronts get even more which leads to actually decrease in breaking power because rears will brake less. Manufacturers tend to make brakes front bias heavy in the first place to make handling characteristics safer and more predicable in all conditions. Also note that drum brakes are "self boosting" in a way and engineers have calculated this in, so care should be taken if you are going to swap from one style to another.
learn that way back in shop class good stuff tony,thanks for sharing for all who didn t understand this
I was 9 years old in '71, but it still blows my mind to this day, that my grandfather walked on the lot at the Dodge dealership, and purchased a new 4 door Coronet Custom with a 318
among all those gorgeous Mopars that were there. I get it, He was an older conservative man, but wow, to me it was like he said "which is the least desirable car that you have here" LOL
Don't get me wrong, when I got the car I had it for about 7 years, when it was already 10 years old, and the engine was one of the best ever built, but the dreams of a '71 Challenger will
always be there in my mind.
Any modifications should be tested driven to see what happens in a safe area to see the affect. To much rear braking in the rear will make it slide. That's why drifting cars have separated front and rear braking systems.
Great new video. I still see what you mean and you made a lot of great points about people upgrading their brakes to discs. Most people don’t realize that the tire friction is usually the weak point and not the ability for the braking system to stop. One of the main reasons modern performance cars have big brakes is more for brake fade from heat and not actually stopping the tires. More mass equals more heat transfer and less inconsistency. Keep up the great work. Love your videos.
I basically follow you thoughts. EXCEPT when the manufacturer makes improvements to the same vehicle in later model years or obvious weak points. For example adding electric fueling to a OBS ford Powerstroke or changing injector styles on a LB7 Duramax which is a known weak point.
Upgrade with stock parts
I'm in agreement with you. I used to have a '63 Dart with a 170 Slant and a '71 Pinto as my daily drivers. I left them as stock as could be and just drove them in accordance with their capabilities. Same with my current '67 Galaxie. I added a 4-barrel to wake up the little 289, but left the rest of it alone.
Spot on! Keep up the good work. I do have a question though. What's happening with the 318 project?
Hey Tony,
Tim here, yea told ya about my manual front disc conversion on my '64 Tempest, as i watched this vid, i realized, it IS geared for the regular Joe.....my sytem works extremly well, but i'm a gear head, swapped in the proper prop vlv, etc, and even have the rear shoes backed off a bit for when i'm in the burnout box, so the 2nd hit on the pedal is always better, but its NOT a daily, its a Hot Rod, and went to front disc for shut down area braking power at the dragstrip, so, i'm knowledgable of the system, knew what i was tryin to achieve, and made SURE all the proper pieces were in place....NOT what YOU were tryin to get across, i have to say, FOLKS, LISTEN TO UNCLE TONY!!!...HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKIN ABOUT!!!!.....his vid was about a driver....NOT a race car/hot rod, and MY upgrades were done with thought, and understanding of what i was trying to achieve......sorry, wanted to clarify a bit....GREAT content Tony, just wish more folks wud understand what ur sayin sometimes, so we wudnt have to clarify.....PEACE to you sir!!
I appreciate you Mr Uncle Tony leaves a lot from you over the last 4-5 years
Always enjoy your talks Tony! I'm old school too, even older actually, but you can see where I'm coming from. I spend most of my time watching you and chuckling. It's all SO true, and SO common sense, obvious to us as gearheads, but not so to a lot of people. Even ones who claim to be car people, they can be worst of all, many times are. Those hacks you and Kiwi point out so well. You guys do a tremendous service to tthe sport, hobby, addiction, whatever y'all call it. I just recently, within days in fact, have had a go round with a friend, over brakes. Ironic, eh? All I'll say is the man has never owned a car without at least Bendix brakes. He just bought one with Lockheeds, nuff said? Would you spend money on Lockheed brakes on something you wanted to cruise regularly in? Purpose, you're right on as always! I rest my case. Thanks!
Tony, THANK YOU. I’m learning so much from your videos. Please continue to make them.
Right. Great Advice. I just picked up a 289 1966 Galaxie 500. I love it. But I had to drive it 1700 miles home. The suspension needs to be done. I ended up in the truck lane on the mountains. It's mostly stock. But it made it and it was hell of a road trip. I don't have the time to really work on it. It ran fine stock. No major issues.
Dude!! Right on!!! Just putting bigger tires on a stock braking system!!! Allow more falling distance!!! The T-shirt was free!!✌️
Great vid, Tony....esp. the description of the disc brake conversion and proportioning/metering valves. I don't mess around with my '98 K1500 single cab...I maintain it, even baby it, but I won't modify it. Stock is dependable, as it was designed to be.
Yes this makes perfect sense Tony. This is verified by how long rear brake pads last so much longer than front pads.
As someone that has used 30 year old (at the time) late 60's cars for both hot rods and daily drivers I can vouch that Tony is right. The hot rods were weekend cars but the daily driver worked best left close to stock. My 4 door 69 Valiant was mostly stock and served me well for almost 10 years. I did convert the front to a stock disk setup from a Dart a few year newer and some nice looking aftermarket 14 inch rims.
Loved that car.
im not getting a new toyota prado.... ill stick with the 4.2td GU nissan patrol all jacked up and 300hp....
stock stantard is best for a daily driver.... i just went through 4 alternators due to mods
Why has NOBODY even mentioned residual pressure valves? A hell of a lot of drum brake cars have them, and if you convert to disc without addressing this disc brakes will drag, get hot, and fade like hell.
Yeah mate spot on
First: Aluminum Heads, Aluminum dual plain intake, AED Carb, 15x8's all around with Radials[maybe 15x10s or 12s in the back], Aluminum 4 row radiator, LED bulbs all around(not headlights), and leve stock until something breaks or needs a rebuild..... Then rebuild with CR 10.8 to 1 minimum, Nice street torque cam, DUI Performance ignition, new fuel tank, disc breaks all around, upgarde trans parts or new trans, UPGRADE entire suspension with QA1 parts..... Then drive to Tony's and show him what you did :-) ... **Always remember, engineers always made upgrades from year to year.
Tony, in some countries it is illegal to modify street vehicles unless you are a tuning company and the modifications are figured out by a profesdional engineer. In case, in France, you cannot put different size tires on a car. In the 80s and early 90s l gad two different French cars. They both drove and rode very well. Under powered but what wasn't then. And they were both hemis.
Glad I don’t live in France
Had a 97 Century someone had redone the brake line that runs front to back and left off that little valve under the left rear door. You had to really be easy on the pedal on slippery roads or the ass would lock up real easy. I had a Grand Prix which is essentially the same car, W body GM, that had 4 wheel disc and didn't use the valve on the rear line.
Like anything else in engineering, it all depends on application. Live in a mountainous region with steep roads? Well then, drum brakes that expand and lose stopping power due to excessive heat might not cut it.
Power mods on an old daily too can make a lot of sense. Keeping up with modern traffic in any car made before 2000 can be a neat trick.
Just saying "keep it stock" means nothing if you consider the technology and time the old cars were developed with/for
Did a 4 wheel disc conversion on my 67 Mustang many moons ago (2002). Installed an adjustable proportioning valve. Went to an area clear of traffic, accelerate, slam on brakes, adjust valve until no lock up and an "even" braking feel.
Got a 70 roadrunner with a 512 wedge that runs 9s with manual drums on all 4 corners, i love it, manual steering and valve body too, never had a problem... Been driving it on the street for almost 30 years.
Working on my 56 Plymouth I inherited from my dad..the brake system was shot and hard to get parts - so converting to disc all around. Definitely has been a learning experience. Making brake lines, replacing master cylinder, changing spindles...it's a process.
Thank you for the video uncle tony. People never believed me when I would say that factory drum brakes are better in general. Almost no one did the conversion correctly. Also think about why semi trucks have drums all around. Only a handful of years have we seen disks on semis.
When I first met my wife she had just bought her moms 67 mustang had the exact problem you talk about. The in laws had added front disc brakes but never dialed in the rear brakes so they were locking up first. That was the first thing I fixed on that car.
Thank you for making these videos. I’ve been on the fence about converting my 66 impala to disc brakes. I’ve now decided I’ll just refresh the drum brakes.
Converted my 81 c10 to disc in front and just put all new OE components (drums) in the rear. New proportioning valve. Tony is right. Its been hell dialing in the breaking feel. Back locks up way easier and faster than the front. Its getting better but its not there yet.
I agree with everything you said yesterday, BUT any A body with 4 9" drums is where I draw the line. That was a leftover from the "pre interstate days" you spoke of. 10s on them are great though.
You're stealing my thunder. I agree 100% I am planning on doing a similar video myself. I daily a 66 Falcon. All stock with 4 wheel manual drum brakes. I have no intention of ever changing them. I will just continue to take care of them. The complete package works well together. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.
Uncle Tony you are right. I never considered myself as a master mechanic. But I guess I am. I have built Mopars since I was 17 years old in the late 70s. I have always like the stock look with enhancements done on stance and brakes. But I always cammed the engines and added a toned mufflers. I weekly drive my 70 340 built Challenger. Just around town. No more than 30 miles out. 4:10 gears and 2800 stall is limiting my trip. I too have other cars for longer trips. Soon I will be Street driving my built 440-6 GTX. I bet it will be just a little less than my 340. The 340 gets 12-14 miles per gallon. 440 might get 10. Thanks for reassuring me that I am not alone. Just stubborn and set in my ways.
One of the things I love with daily driving an old car is the simplicity. I drive a 50s Volvo Amazon, and have been able to do service and maintenance with simple hand tools. It isn't a rocket, but still drives just fine in modern traffic. Fits me very well.
I'm good at following along the service and repair documentation from the manufacturer and prefer to keep it stock because of this. However, I'm one of those that have to "upgrade" the brakes out of necessity. Consumable parts are discontinued for my model year. After a lot of thought, I chose to go with the most common brake configuration, which is the mid 60s front disc and rear drum with manual adjustment. The thought being that parts for that configuration should be available for many years to come still.
Volvo did issue a service bulletin in the 60s which describes a disc brake retrofit, which I'm using as a template. Unfortunately, after hearing from other owners and doing more reading on the subject, I found that Volvo themselves had trouble with the rear drums locking up before the front discs. Later models came with a pressure regulator to reduce the rear brake pressure. The modern solution is to instead install rear brake cylinders with a smaller bore.
I'm one of those average people with no extensive knowledge on the subject. The brake situation did make me feel uneasy, but at least I'm aware it was a problem then, and could be a problem now. I just have to do some careful testing and take appropriate steps to remedy it once I've done the retrofit.
Perfect example. I converted my 1967 VW Baja Bug from Drum to Disc Brakes, The Baja will now stop in less distance using 1 single disc brake than it would with all 4 drums. Having all wheel disc with a proper front rear bias on them the Baja stops very well if feels like it is grabbing the ground. Bias is correct so it does not squat in the rear or nose dive in the front car stays level to the ground. I just like the idea that the car stops so much better than it dead with drums. The Baja is not driven much over 60 mph.
Out of curiosity, what do you guys think of upgrading to ABS brakes on classics but leaving the rest stock as suggested?
It's not a common thing to do. Plus you would need to completely redo the system and that requires a ecu or computer to run ABS, if you're thinking it'll just work on some carbed joint. Who's going to buy a standalone ecu just for the brakes?
@@ItsDaJax Good point. I admit I'm more familiar with late 80s era where ABS was available as an option (owned one once that had it). At that time even though the engines were computer controlled fuel injection, other stuff like that were separate modules. They had to be because the engine ECM only had the computing capability of a Commodore 64, they couldn't handle any additional load on their own plus it wasn't a requirement yet. I'm looking at getting a late 70s, early 80s car as a daily but I've never driven without ABS.
@@0utc4st1985 Even new cars use modules to talk to the ecu. All the ecu does is engine management- it's in its name. There's usually a separate computer for abs, traction control, yaw control, etc, it tells the ecu if there's an issue, and in some cars, a drivetrain control module- usually awd cars. That's why cars with bare minimum abs or abs/traction control will just tell the ecu to retard timing or close the throttle in aid.
Not having it ain't the end of the world. I've had three vehicles without abs, and the rest of them, it didn't even work.
Just know when pump the brakes. They taught us this in Driver;s Ed in the 1970's.
UTG, not to be crass here but if you didn't have a channel to showcase your knowledge, tips, and overall experience; you would be laughed out of any and every Cars & Coffee in the USA.