Fuel Injector Not Pulsing "Intentional Shut Down" Chapter 18 page 6
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This is a 2011 Honda Odyssey 3.5L with a cylinder #3 misfire. What happens if you started your diagnosis by monitoring the fuel injectors and you find one injector not firing? Do you have an injector problem? Or is the computer intentionally shutting down the fuel injector to protect the catalytic converter?
Use this case study as a suppliment to my Chapter 18 page 6 material.
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Some basic electrical knowledge is helpful but not necessary.
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Scanner danner is the man! Learning so much just by watching one vid. You're a great teacher! 👍
Great video Paul! I remember working on a Benz doing this exact thing and in that case the injector was accessible. I did a simple resistance check and it was OL,so I knew the injector was bad. However,I wanted to check the computer circuit just to make sure and the computer wasn’t pulsing the injector. I’ve emailed you and you told me to clear the code and try again. It worked like a charm! You’re the man Paul! 👍
Thank you Nick! Nice job on your Benz too bro.
This was very interesting. Again, my intent was to watch a few minutes before going to bed but I watched the whole thing because like a good book, I couldn't put it down. My note book is getting full!
haha nice Wyatt
Good stuff! I found the intentional PCM shutdown concept interesting.
The smart board background and colour make a massive difference to presentation Paul, content v good as per usual. Doc
It did make a big difference. The white balance of my camera just doesn't like the smart board on a white screen with me standing in front of it.
Steve Scott Noticeable difference, I think it's easier to see against the black.
Thanks for the video mr Paul :) in a world of stupid prank reaction videos and time wasting content, people like you bringing in all that useful information is really refreshing and delightful. I appreciate every bit of it.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for the video Mr Paul. Loved it!
Thanks Brandon!
I love this video. Definitely one of my favourite scannerdanner case studies. :)
Thank you!
This dovetails nicely with the two previous videos on the Subaru with a injector driver
It definitely did. Thanks Andy!
I believe on fords if the computer has taken the injector off line , I think it will return after a restart for a few seconds and then be taken away again . I guess its like that on all of them, great video
great work Paul! you have definitely pumped up my confidence. I have always your book, wich I call my "bible " in my car ( as I do mobile mechanic ) . I diagnose a lot quicker, safer and without misdiagnosed anything ever since I bought your book! I strongly recommend everyone to purchase the book and the online training!
Thanks so much! I really appreciate you posting that here. Would you also post this to my website?
scannerdanner.com/buy-the-book/leave-read-feedback.html
More than happy to do, doest open the link though.. any suggestions?
ScannerDanner Premium you are such a wonderful diagnostician! Does that concept of turning the car off and back on to verify whether the computer shut the injector down hold true to the majority of makes and models? Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge.
George...
Couldnt agree more. I dont have the book but have always got SD PREMIUM on my phone n laotop.
Only the other day i was checking wiring on a two wire coolant sensor.. I couldnt remember the max voltage allowed on the earth... I went straight to chapter 6 thermistors...everything i needed to know was there...fantastic resource of information. Like haveing paul right there with you
Super awesome video. I imagine the computer in this van is not cheap neither. Great work Paul as always. William colon saying hi!! From mass.
Bmw have done this intentional fuel injector shut down as far back as E39/E46 models, but it was easy to pick up on because a code would be stored telling you that the injector was shut down intentionally so you couldn't miss it. Why wouldn't Honda do that?!
This was such an important video for me to watch as someone learning about this stuff. How easy would it have been to condemn the PCM. Another great lesson. thanks Paul
I had to subscribe so much knowledge. Had another TH-cam mechanic tell me he never seen computers do that . Thanks wish I knew which year and manufacturers do this 😁👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Had this happen today to a stepdaughter's car. Ignition coil was melted down and broken... unfortunately by the time I suspected a purposeful shutdown and found/watched this video she had the tow truck come. Darn it, could have saved a few bucks. Now have to figure out how to get the remaining parts off the spark plug and get the parts out before pulling the plug to check it and avoid pieces falling into the cylinder. Will probably have to ram a socket in and break the plastic off and blow it out, then put a spark plug socket on. Can't get a hose clamp plier in there, due to no space. front crossmember in the way, along with the cooling fan and possibly the radiator as well.
This is exactly what happened to me a month ago that I sent Danner a message about. Turned out to be the exact same thing after I had a pcm sent off to be checked and it came back good. The spark plug was bad. Thanks for the info on what to look for from now on Danner!
Oh man that sucks! Did I give you bad advise on that one? I don't remember, sorry if I did.
No you didn't at all. Was my own call.
Great point made about the injector shut off for cat safety. I see this a lot on the mopar cars. You can check individual injectors with the scan tool to see if they operate not on all models though. It’s never a good thing to put a pcm in with no fix.
you know the other car lines this applies to..love this channel by the way,awsome
Hey Paul, another relevant vid! Jus to add, I've seen this feature in older Asian vehicles (Denso system) and one of the most common one is Toyota engine control system where the 'IGF' signal input has a significant effect on the injector operation where intentional shutdown is concern. I have also seen it on an old Suzuki model (non US) where the confirmation signals from the coils are fed thru a diode bank then sent to the PCM, as I said early design but same function. Again great video Paul!
Thanks Bannie!
Paul, In relation to the Honda fouled spark plug this an ongoing problem not with the spark plug but with the 3.5 liter engine in all Honda lines. See TSB's concerning cylinder ring rotation only on cylinders 1,2,3 &4.If not mistaken this is a class action concern.
Great videos.
found it! Thanks!
Actually, while Honda may say it's due to piston ring rotation, it's not. It's well documented (not by Honda) that it's due to Honda's Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) that shuts down the rear bank of cylinders to save fuel. On that year vehicle (with VCM2) it actually will shut down 1, 2, or 3 cylinders depending on conditions. Cylinder number four, on the front bank is shut down at the same time as cylinder #3 during 2-cylinder pause operation. The shut down cylinders can cause deposits to form in the rings and on the plugs and cause the misfires. If this happens to you Honda will, in many cases re-ring those cylinders and replace the plugs.
The best thing for ALL of these Honda V6 engines with VCM is to disable it. A very inventive Honda enthusiast reverse engineered it and found that at ECT temps of 167 and below VCM will not engage. So, he built a small harness he calls the "VCMuzzler" with an 82 ohm resistor that goes inline with ECT1 sensor and reduces the indicated ECT1 temp just enough to prevent VCM from engaging about 95% of the time but not low enough that the computer will change fuel strategies or set a P0128 code. This temp change shows very slightly on the gauge, maybe a needle width lower at most, but the computer doesn't seem to mind it. It doesn't affect cooling fan cycling since the PCM appears to use ECT2 for cooling fan operation.
I use one on my own 08 Odyssey and VCM will still engage once in a while during stop and go traffic in the summer time when ECT1 gets warm enough but will usually go out again after 30 seconds to a minute of driving airflow over the radiator. I installed mine before having any misfire issues and have 172K on mine without issue. However, I have seen these VCMuzzlers reverse much of the fouling and oil consumption that causes the misfires. Honda has been re-ringing tons of these engines under extended warranty. Oil consumption can get up to 2 quarts or more between oil changes.
The VCMuzzler is quite popular on most of the Honda enthusiast websites so as a technician you may see these Hondas in your shop with this mod. It's barely noticeable (I pass inspection with mine on) and is just forward of the throttle body down on the lower intake manfold area. The one thing to keep in mind is that it reduces the indicated ECT1 temp so if you have to do anything that requires the ECT1 temp to hit 194F, and your scan tool shows the ECT1 not able to hit that temp, then you should check for this VCMuzzler harness on ECT1. For example, if you clean a throttle body and reset the PCM afterward you have to warm the vehicle to 194F on ECT1 for the idle relearn to complete. Mine won't hit 194 at idle with the Muzzler. About 180 is the max it will hit.
It's a great mod for any Honda V6 owner to extend the life of the J35 engine but something for techs to be aware of. You need to know it's there and it's a good thing to recommend to your Honda customers.
Would love to know how many manufacturers don't shut the injector drivers down.
This is a good idea from Honda, saves you having to spend money on a cat converter.
Nice video Paul, as always!
I'm not sure but what is more important is that we know about it and put it in the back of our minds when troubleshooting misfires.
Thanks brother!
Agree for sure, never knew that the ECU could and will shut down the driver to protect the cat.
Great information Paul, thanks so much bro!
@@scottmotorsportz Having had a 99 suburban destroy two cats with a bad (brand new) distributor cap (non-OEM), I'm grateful newer cars have this safety feature in it.
Flippin so helpful thank you
I would suggest if you see 0V at the computer connector to first unplug it from the pcm and make sure its not a fault driver sticking and shorted internally before selling a intake job. Though its not common Im sure it could happen. Thoughts Danner?
You just have to be careful that the power feed to your injectors is not coming from a computer controlled relay. If you unplug your computer, the relay shuts down, and you lose power to your injector, causing misdiagnosis. Make sense?
Great Video Paul!
Love from kenya ❤
Great Video, Great Channel Thanks for every thing Paul
Thank you!
Nice job Paul
thanks for the great vidio...GOD has blessed u with a gift for teacthing....great teacher
Thanks for subscribing and for your kind words Eri!
Had a 2005 Ford Freestyle with 3.0L in with TB codes. Most common fix is replace throttle body. No other codes or Mode 6 info useful. It would go in limp mode randomly. I noticed when driving I could feel a fish bite under slight load, not severe at all, with nothing showing on the Verus. Bad coil plus TB, nottttt. I lost $507 on TB and had the exact same problem. I could watch cylinder contribution at idle only and could see -3, and sometimes -5 but engine ran smooth. Took a chance and pulled intake, replaced 3 rear coils, fixed the problem. Shop owner has Versus but no amp clamp so I could not watch the coils while driving. Could have bought a couple amp probes. I have replaced scores of Ford coils with electronic throttle and never seen a misfire shut the PCM down and set TB codes. The coils fixed the fish bite and the PCM limp mode. Extremely frustrating. Great video, just renewed my Premium for the year, best thing going.
Thank you so much for re-subscribing and for sharing this info with us!
FINALLY, IN THIS CASE, WHAT HAPPENED AND CLOSED THE INJECTOR? BAD INJECTOR?
FINALLY I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHEN WE SEE 14 VOLTS WE HAVE A GOOD CIRCUIT BUT IF WE HAVE A BAD ECM DRIVER HOW MANY VOLTS DO WE SEE ON THE ECM CABLE? IF WE HAVE A BAD DRIVER WE SEE 14 VOLT AND IF WE HAVE SUDDEN CUTTING WE SEE LESS?I.E., IN A CAR THAT HAS NO PROBLEM WE WILL SEE 14 VOLTS AND IN ONE WITH A BAD DRIVER ECM, HOW MANY VOLTS WILL WE SEE IN THE CABLE?
I'd be happy to see misfire data on one of my Chryslers.
26:10 you said we could still have an injector fault as the computer would not know the cause of the misfire.
Wouldn't it see lean condition on the o2 sensor and know that it's a no fuel misfire and then know not to turn the injector off?
A misfire of any kind will cause a false lean condition at the O2 sensor.
Just a hunch Paul, but did the misfire counter for cylinder 4 stop counting when the injector was intentionally shut down?
possibly, I do not know for sure.
About what year did car manufacturers started using injector shut down? And do all car makers use this feature?
I'm not sure man. And when they did start using it, not all manufactures did.
my verus has a filter on the scope , you said it didn't?? what your doing on the pico different with the filter? seems the same? just wondering.
I don't remember saying that.
i thought it might of been some feature pico had or something and was just wondering??
thanks
Had a 2002 ford windstar with a 3.8liter shut the injectior down as soon as i disconected the injector it shut the drover down . Puzzled me when i was testing with my test light. As soon as i connected the connector it would take control again . Can anyone give bit of info on ford systems on shutting the injector down ? It is what i saw right ?
This applies to any output. If the computer senses an open or short, it may disable that particular output. It is a variable that I discuss in my Chapter 3 lectures. th-cam.com/play/PLM4TD8VJ3gj_PxwbFEs3RYAKzionSeszV.html
Thank you!
Very good video could you do more video s on can system s please with lab scope need to learn mor e on being able read scope pattern s and understand ing them thank you
Got a 3 to 4 part series coming up on SD Premium on this very thing my friend.
Just released parts 1a and 1b today
Is that the new pico software update ?
no, I just changed the background color to be more camera friendly. :-)
Overkill on diagnostics
You know nothing. Paul knows everything you need to re asses your life