I have a question do they have any ownership of the business or did they sold what ever part ownership of the business I still don't understand can you please just lay it down for me if you don't mind.
I took Mattheson saying he wanted to have sensual relations with Shiv in front of him, part because he did, but also because he wanted to see how Tom would act in order to confirm that he is willing to be a puppet pain cushion. And Tom swallowed his pride and acted accordingly.
But at that point, she damaged him to the extent that one could also interpret as "Yeah, the conniving B**** that almost sent me prison? Yeah, you can have her." If he still retained his bubbly personality from Season 1 he would jumped right at him.
Well if anyone knows anything about swallowing something unpleasant, Tom is the expert. He swallowed his own "load" at the bachelor party, and he swallowed the news from Shiv that she wanted an open relationship on their wedding night. Lukas Mattson will most likely force him to swallow a lot of unpleasantness before eventually cutting him loose.
Yep. He did the same thing with Shiv and the Ebba story. She put on a cool girl act and won him over, but then fumbled by failing to realise it was that, not her supposed 'smarts', that won him over.
Mattson said what he said about Shiv because he wanted to see if Tom buckles under pressure. Any normal man would have snatched another man's throat out for saying that about their wife, but Shiv broke Tom. It was more about success for him than love.
I was genuinely disappointed in how the finale kind of just forgot about Connor. I also don't like that he didn't get to speak at Logan's funeral because i think that could have been some very interesting dialogue. I would have loved to have seen Logan memorialized and described in death by his 1st born whom he had sort of ostracized. I get he was planning on saying some weird political shit which is why the siblings felt the need to shut him down but they could have at least let him talk for a few minutes as long as he agreed to keep it kosher, so to speak. He was Logan's kid too.
@@joelmontague5004 but the finale ended up showing how Connor had the closest bond with his father. That table hang out with Logan and the old guard and Connor showed how Logan actually enjoyed Connor's company despite never having much respect for him. That showed more than all the moments of "love" Logan ever showed the 3 siblings combined. I loved that the finale subtly revealed that.
the fact that Kendall also goes from being extremely protective over Roman and his children over Logan's violence to perpetuating that violence towards Roman twice in the final episode (as well as possibly going after Shiv and only being restrained by Roman) is something that I don't think is talked about as much as some of Kendall's other heel face turns
@@holidaygerry he had already popped his stitches open in a ‘hug’ at that point. not excusing what roman said, it was pointlessly cruel, but ken had already been violent towards him.
a reality they created because they couldn't work together. they'd rather scorch the earth than allow the other to be king. Shiv's decision was simple "If it's not me than not any of us." the whole "you killed someone" was just her throwing a f**k-you pie in his face.
Winner amongst the Siblings, but that's hard to say. Though him accepting reality instead of trying to escape into more delusions of grandeur or denial is probably better for him mentally in the long term.@@BlueeeBanisters
Just a little correction - it’s wrong to assume Shiv secured her future child’s succession because Tom doesn’t own the company. Mattson does who can replace him just as easily as he appointed him. CEO positions in companies you don’t own are not hereditary. Also I don’t think Shiv betrayed Kendell because he was turning into Logan. Because she flimsily uses the manslaughter as an excuse before Kendell starts lying about making that up - if that had been an issue she would’ve never aligned herself with Kendell in this episode. I think the company is what their father loved the most so winning the company would mean winning his approval and she couldn’t stand to watch that happen.
@@Black_pearl_adrift So Jesse Armstrong’s interview just released and he confirmed that it was a spontaneous reaction to her brother winning and she couldn’t stand that.
Shiv definitely has the "if I can't have it, you all can't either" view for her brothers. And yes, even if Tom is replaced as CEO, he will always have the upperhand over Shiv as long as they are married. Shiv has become like her mother, the last person she wanted to be.
Greg is Tom. And Tom sees that. I didn't see Tom putting the sticker on Greg as only about owning him now. I saw it as seeing himself in Greg and bringing him along as the new Tom. And when Greg gets the power he desires he'll get his own Greg to Greg him, becoming Tom, and perpetuating that cycle.
Shiv’s biggest flaw in everything she does is she can only think about herself. Just like Kendall, she did not learn from her father Logan to see what people wants and use it as leverage. Logan understands the ATN audience, he understands and orchestrated what his children wants (CEO) and constantly dangling it to their face for them to do what he wants. Shiv never tries to understand what Tom wants, or what Matsson wants. They constantly tells her, even to her face, but she’s so self entitled that she won’t listen. If she understands and considers what Tom wants and need, they would have been a truly powerful dynamic and win the game much earlier. If she understands what Matsson wants, she would have tone down her aggressiveness and “girl boss” attitude and sucking up to Matsson more as the puppet. Even to Greg, she threatens him without giving him anything, which lead to him selling her out. She can’t be considerate because she thinks she’s smarter than every men out there. That arrogance is what lead to her downfall.
But was it really a downfall for her? She may not have won the coveted job title, but she will always be wealthy no matter what happens even if she and Tom get divorced. I think she voted yes not out of spite, but because when it came right down to it, she really didn't think that Kendall would be good at the job because throughout the series run, Kendall has demonstrated how incompetent he is at times when he was in charge. Even Roman could barely swallow his "no" vote. He wanted to disappear. He even told Kendall that they were all just "bull----". And I think Shiv was sincere when she told him he shouldn't be CEO because he killed someone. And Kendall's extreme denialism was only proof that she was making the right call.
All three siblings are guilty of trying to project want they want to happen onto others This is a classic Logan tactic, he used it to bully his staff into compliance. It works best from a position of strength, which Logan nearly always had. When he didn't, he seamlessly switches gears to bargain so he can regain his position. The siblings are at their best and most dangerous when they are humbled. That's where Tom and Greg operate. But humiliation is painful and the siblings don't have Tom or Gregs tolerance. So as soon as they get some success, they salvage their ego's and rebound.
@@annejohnson5875 Logan made several bad calls as CEO, he kept the position through force of personality. As Roman points out, the choice between Matson and Kendall means very little. They are both abusive and entitled pieces of shit. The businesses they operate are fraudulent and destructive. Shiv just can't stand losing to Kendall, because he's her brother. She knows his failures intimately, and that makes losing to him too bitter to swallow. If there were a moment for Shiv to swallow her pride and sacrifice her ambitions for something meaningful, it would have been when ATN was making the election call. If she was ever going to convince Kendall to do the right thing, she had to come clean about her deal with Matson, and then work overtime to broker an agreement between Kendall and Jimenez.
Well she did kill a lot of jobs in Waystar and doing the backstabbing after the nice night that they had was really low. I think all 3 of them are awful and this is the ending that they deserve. I also think she would have had a better shot at controlling parts of the company if they were together but now she is stuck with Tom and estranged from family because she wanted the top job.
It occurs to me that the happiest people in the family are Connor and Caroline - the two who have most divorced themselves from Logan and the Family Business. This is also why Roman is possibly the happiest (or at least the least unhappy) of the three in the end. Shiv is literally married to the business, and Kendall has no concept of being anything other than Logan’s heir apparent. Roman, like his mother and half brother, is free of it all, and he sees it the most clearly.
I'm not sure Roman has a bright future ahead. The director spoke about how he thinks Roman is going to have a rough time. That final fading of the smile says a lot
Except Connor got screwed in this episode too. It seemed like his relationship was heading in a better direction, but then you see how Willa wants him to be as far away from her as possible. I thought they'd get comfortable with each other in a loveless marriage, but no, even that is apparently too much to hope for.
I feel like Tom actually loved Shiv in the first seasons but given all the issues they had he decided to be loyal to Logan rather than Shiv as his relationship's status was so volatile.
@@nelsonsxs3515 exactly lol. he's always been like this. I believe he still loves Shiv though but would betray her for money. Shiv said to Tom before, you should take over the company but she doesn't mean it though lol. She wants it
The show was great for keeping Tom's intentions ambiguous in the first seasons. But, I don't think he ever loved her. He loved the money, the power, and the access she provided. Once he got in good with Logan, he didn't show much regret at the thought of losing her. I think that's why Shiv decided to keep the baby, as a way to get him to stay by her side.
Shiv lost cause she misjudged Mattson and overplayed her hand with him. She couldn’t read him well enough to see that he didn’t want an equal, he wanted a lapdog. She herself kept telling him Tom was a ass kisser, putting the idea into his head while showing him she would never do the same. Think it’s a biased take to read that as “Shiv played it better but lost cause she’s a woman.” Quite reductive and makes for a much less interesting character.
Totally agree. Mattson was using her from the start, and never had any intention of making her US CEO. Shiv was never going to win, and if anything played it the worst out of the three siblings.
I don't agree. Mattson quite literally says "I want to f*ck her" therefor she can't be CEO. She also prostrated herself for him at the funeral and described herself as HIS puppet. She read him exactly right. When the article came out she immediately offered to wrangle the media for him because she KNEW it was a problem. Mattson's ego and vanity were ultimately the deciding factors in Tom being CEO, he was always going to pick a male sycophant who he wasn't interested in sexually harassing. Shiv DID lose in large part because she's a woman in that corporate environment.
@@karinaleyva7620 I partly agree with you. Mattson's misogyny is definitely a factor. However, my take on Mattson telling Tom that he wanted to f*@k Shiv felt more like a test to see how servile Tom could be. Mattson could see that the comment angered him, but he downplays it and sucks it up. Which is what Mattson wanted to see!
In S3 when Shiv told Tom explicitly “I don’t love you” how can she be surprised that she went behind her back and sided with her father in law? Be honest.
And Shiv the entire Season 4 is complaining of why Tom betrayed her and even wants to divorce him. Even Tom is concerned if he got divorced, will he work with Logan again? Logan even blocked every divorce lawyers in America to make sure they're staying. She even called Logan as Human Gaslight while in fact she's gaslighting Tom every time! Like father, like daughter.
There was in fact a lot of misoginy in shiv’s life and in the company, however, that was not the reason she lost. In the end, it was because she was as incompetent as her brothers, she got played by mattson and she never really had a shot of becoming the CEO , but not because she’s a woman, but because she never had any proper experience inside the company, and that’s all her fault. In the finale, she did not make a strategic choice of backstabbing her brother, she did that because she could not bear to see him being the boss, and I saw people saying “but now she’s married to the boss and will give birth to his child”, but Tom is not the boss, he’s just a guy in a suit that Mattson needs so he can rule. The company belongs to Mattson now, and there is no way in hell that she can takeover from him, while she would have a big chance of taking Kendall down, she was rash and infantile in her decision, and Kendall and Roman were also childish in their demeanor in that final moment. In the most important moment of their lifes, none of them were “serious people”, just big children fighting for a big toy.
There was a good point I heard mentioned about this resolution: Lucas didn't need someone he would have to fight with. All Roys would've fought him for control. They were trained to do that, and Shiv would've fought the hardest. What he needed was someone who would run things and obey when needed. Tom filled that role to a T.
I think you're giving Shiv way too much credit. I think it's been proven repeatedly throughout the series that Shiv's major flaw is that she isn't as smart as she really thinks she is.
@@helengordon-smith5753she’s smarter but has zero loyalties, accomplished nothing positive on the show, she showed she has killer instinct but she doesn’t know how to use it, she just kills for the thrill of killing never without any goal/strategy in mind, Shiv is just a spiteful child that didn’t get what they wanted, which I would hardly say she edges the brothers out in any way. They are bullshit, equal bullshit.
Shiv is the most dangerous of the 3 siblings! You seemed to paint her as this almost victim when she is a malignant narcissist and the most like her father. She used people to get her way constantly and tells herself that she is "altruistic " and a better person than her siblings. But the clue is in her nickname Shiv. A small weapon used for quick, dirty strikes that you don't see coming. All the Roys, including Conner, are some form of narcissist but Shiv is the worst of them, after Logan.
How is she the worst lmao. Her brothers did some equally heinous things like electing a facist, manslaughter. Kendall literally physically assaulted Roman to manipulate him which is exactly what Logan would do. It's just stupid to argue which sibling is the worst in the show
They can’t help it, you’ll see that whenever they discuss a female character. They’re either a badass or a victim, even when they’re straight up evil. She definitely wasn’t the biggest victim of the family, she probably had it the best out of anyone if we’re going to be real.
You are leaning too hard on Shiv losing out because she's a woman. She is also genuinely incompetent, very immature at times, and overestimates her own intelligence in business matters. She has her moments, but they are few and far between, and I don't think we've seen evidence to suggest she'd be better as CEO than Kendall or Tom (though I grant you she would probably have been better than Roman, but that's a very low bar)
I was hoping they’d put the obvious feminist agenda on the side here. Couldn’t help themselves. “Oh, the women have suffered”, yes, so have a lot of men, but I guess they don’t matter.
I think Greg at the time he discloses to Ken that Shiv will not be a CEO, doesn’t know that Tom is going to be the CEO. He just knows that they will be keeping their jobs. So technically Greg didn’t betray Tom. It just seems like he did because it felt like it in the moment, but he really didn’t know.
Imma argue the opposite. Shiv's S4 journey mirrors Roman's. Slowly realising they hate this game & the only reason they were playing it is gone. No amount of cunning can undo Logan's last comment. He simply didn't think they could do it. Shiv had real power for the first time at the end. She could've carved a good seat of Waystar herself - under Kendall. She could've risked security for power. But Shiv has a moment where she realises she doesn't care for the power. She doesn't want it, nor the responsibility that comes with it. It does nothing for her. The power to Roman & Shiv was a means to impress Daddy. Being CEO was not a job - it was the finish line. Dad loves me most. Both give it up in the end - they both realise they simply don't have the guts to do the job, Logan can't undo his choices & they simply aren't the best choice for the company itself. Then Kendall dug himself a grave. He sealed his own fate by being unable to let Shiv decide for herself. It was 50/50 in her mind. Had he built her up & told her to trust him - rather than demand obedience - he would've got it. Kendall misunderstood Logan's tactics at the most pivotal moment. Being a bully doesn't work. Judging character works. Roman responded to shame. Shiv responded to praise. Kendall responded to validation. It's painful to watch - but ultimately Shiv felt more secure losing power. Roman was about a week away from quitting himself. Kendall couldn't see what was in front of him.
@@moonchiId. She doesn't. She wants to he recognised for being clever, she wants to be told she's the smartest & most effective. They way to do that with Logan was to achieve power. Whenever Shiv made a good play - Logan patted her on the back like no one else. When she started getting big headed - he would suddenly snap & put her back in her place. He treated Roman the exact opposite - because Roman plans often never worked out. With Kendall specifially he withheld love - recognising Kendall's weakness is caring too much what others think. Shiv does NOT want power for the sake of power. The original plan was for Tom to step up as CEO & Shiv to keep her stuff going on the outside. She wanted influence & position - but the actual power was secondary. It became very clear to her in the end how little she truly cared for Waystar as a company.
@@VinsHourOne Shiv lies, her actions don't. She would objectively have more power under Kendall than as the husband of a puppet CEO for a dude who played her. She gave her power up for security - finally submitting to the truth of her gender in the business world. It's cruel but true. Men are favoured.
The finale was such a roller-coaster of emotions, that I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. Shiv is basically in the same position with Tom as Caroline was with Logan, trapped in a loveless marriage with a child that she's not sure if she really wants, Roman goes back to hanging out in bars, but is clearly traumatised by the entire ordeal, and Kendall has fractured most of his relationships, and is left mostly alone by the end, aside from Colin, unable to live up to Logan's legacy.
Greg actually was not trying to betray Tom, he tried to play with Kendall as the only sibling who liked him to secure his position and didn't know Tom was going to be the new CEO. Tom knows that Greg is trying to survive in any way possible, as he's doing himself, and doesn't fully trust anyone, as he taught him to
I don't agree Shiv is more clever than her brothers. She was played as were they. They all have their moments, and Roman was at least self-aware in the last episode. But, Shivs still the most interesting character to me. Also, we don't know if she was sidelined out of business. It did look as she wanted to be in politics at the beginning and it was her choice. We have no proof she would be better than Tom at the job. He works really hard, does she?
She was played, but she was smart enough to understand that as much as she hated Matsson and Tom, they were far more suited to run Waystar than Ken and Roman. The company was built by a shark and could only be run by a shark, with Tom as his servile lapdog. Shiv knew that if she couldn’t be CEO, at least she could be way richer by selling her shares at a high price than to tank her wealth by giving her drug addict, scatterbrained, weak-willed brother the top position.
I think shiv is the smartest but that doesn’t win every situation. They all have different skills that come into play at different time. Ken is much better speaker Rome is unscrupulous
@@pji1979 Kendall did not figure it out he was directly told by Greg Who snitched because he was worried about being fired. People believe in Ken cause he’s a good speaker and he’s the eldest boy
I also want to say that I think a big factor in Shiv voting ‘no’ was to keep Tom. Ultimately, Shiv doesn’t want to lose Tom, and she k1lled Kendall to protect Tom. And this isn’t the first time she’s done this. Remember at the end of season 2, on the yacht, she begged Logan not to choose Tom to be the face of the cruises scandal, even though it probably meant Ken going to prison.
true. thats why when tom kept pointing out that shiv was gonna watch him go to prison. i kept thinking "she was willing to let her dad send her brother, her family to prison to protect u"
Superficial analysis. To say Shiv was smarter than her brothers, or principled, is to turn a blind eye to all her dumb mistakes, including being played like a fiddle by Matsson. And as if she cares one iota about changing the culture at the company, making it more female positive. In Episode 9 she was ready to make a deal with the “devil”, Mencken, if it meant she could be CEO. In the end, she turned on Kendall simply because she couldn’t bear to see him “win”. She acted true to her character, the Shiv, the scorpion.
let's not forget how she talked the female key witness out of testifiying in the court about the cruises harrassment and assault scandels to win Logan's approval
Siobhan does not owe Kendall, Rome or Connor anything. She has a pact with Tom, which she fulfilled. He got his CEO position(because of her vote); she is pregnant. He told her in season 1, she can do as she pleases after she filled her part of the bargain.
I wanted Kendall to win so bad but I still loved the ending, you wonder about his mental state with that last shot and what he might do with nothing left.
This finale was a mix of "with great powers comes great responsibility" and "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain"
The big winner nobody’s talked about is Sandy Furness. The Roys lost the family business and Sandy made a lot of money when he (and Sandi) cashed out. It’s too bad he lost his sanity trying to destroy the Roys when all he had to do was watch them do it to themselves.
I don’t know where you got the impression that Shiv is a talented businesswoman who only lost out because she’s a woman. There was no indication in the show she was ever any good.
As a person who's favorite character was Tom. The final episode felt so good. I don't know how the Shiv and Tom relationship is going to go. I just hope their child turns out alright.
Same! Team Tom for life, he deserves the top spot and he’ll love having it even if he is a pain sponge/puppet. I think if Shiv can recalibrate and accept being the less dominant partner they’ll be happy. To me that’s what the last image of them in the car nodded to.
I dont think Mattson didn't give Shiv the CEO role because shes a woman, i think he never intended to give it too her. I think the "fucking shiv" comments from Mattson were more to test Tom's servile nature more than anything else.
It's a very reductive analysis about Shiv's trajectory. She is smart, she has good knowledge about politics and can be a good advisor, but she wasn't ready to be a CEO. So maybe Logan never took her seriously because of her gender when she was younger, and in a way resented her siblings for that. But as soon as she started in the company, she repeated the same mistakes of her brothers, feeling as entitled and engrossed by power. The viewer should not trust the characters of the show. Shiv is an interesting character, but her moral compass is biased, always using sexism as a defense, while never aknowledging her own priviledge. She used her name to climb the ladder but justified herself by being "the smarter" out of the 3 with no competence whatsoever required for the job except the name. If Shiv had been a CEO and if she had failed, she would have blame all the men in the world because she can't accept failure. But if there is one thing we can't take from her, is that she had the killer instinct and maybe, (maybe!) , she could have been a good CEO but only with a better preparation and more self-critic. And finally, Shiv has flaws, she has done pretty terrible thing and that's okay. Not all women have to be some sort of "superheroine", women are allowed to be as sneaky as men.
@@bowtoyoursensei554 Of course it is not, it was more about the double standard, expecting women to be "only nice or supportive" in real life. But also about the feminist take of the video that her struggle as a woman should excuse every bad behaviour she had while it's not entirely true. It was more like "hey women can also be mean and as bad as men"! They did a better video about Shiv's blindsided perspective, it is a more nuanced and interesting take about her.
I find it interesting that everyone thinks Roman's end was so bad. Don't get me wrong, it was all traumatizing and he is clearly still fucked up with lots of work to do, but my interpretation of his quick smile at the end was that he's finally free.
Brilliant post mortem on a brilliant show, but I honestly got hung up in the first 30 seconds when you mentioned that all of the Roy siblings have 'arrested development', because I realized somewhere in season 3 that Succession has an enormous amount of parallels to that amazing comedy 😂: - 4 kids (3 boys and one girl) - all kids trying to get their dad's attention and favor, but to no avail - the dad actively pitting his kids against each other - the dad having an affair with his much younger assistant - an emotionally distant mother - one sibling is married to a HIGHLY unsuccessful theatre person - the second born son who is trying his hardest to gain control of the company - a daughter who is married to an outsider who isnt highly respected (if at all) by the rest of the family... or indeed his wife - the youngest brother who has an affair with a woman who could be his mother Any other parallels people see, feel free to add 😆 PS, look up the AI created video of making the first episode of season 4 of Succession like an episode of Arrested Development.... its CRAZY funny! 😂😂😂
Shiv didn’t lose because she’s a woman. In a lot of ways she’s way smarter than her siblings. She lost because the corporate world was never her arena, she went into politics first and while that is very valuable on a confident/advisor to the CEO role, she does not have the experience and both the boards and shareholders would not go for her as the successor despite her name.
Remember in one of the earlier seasons even logan wanted her to work in waystar and gain some experience and she totally dismissed it. At the end of the day shiv thinks she can do it but she flubs her chances most times due to her lack of experience.
In my opinion the corporate world was never her arena is because it was never presented to her as an option, and it was never presented to her as an option because she was a woman. I noticed that Connor and Shiv have a different sort of relationship with Logan (he’s softer with them) from Kendall and Roman (he’s much more strict with them), and I have a feeling it’s because they weren’t being groomed for waystar. When Logan invited her into the fold, her shock made it feel like that was the first time she’d ever been considered for the business.
Stepping back for a moment, The Roys got exactly what they wanted in Season 4 Ep. 1. They own Pierce and The 100. Tom and Greg got promotions. Matsson owns Royco. Succession had a somewhat happy ending despite the emotional outbursts.
Let's point out that Mattson didn't pick Shiv because, as he said to Tom explicitly he didn't want someone with new ideas or someone that tried to bring a revolution to the Waystar corporate ecosystem, he just wanted someone to be a pain sponge and to follow orders, that's it!
The moment where Greg slaps Tom back I knew Greg has become Tom now, he’s willing to put up with shit but only for so long. Willing to flip on a dime depending on what’s in it for him, I loved that for Greg weirdly enough
It really amazes me that there's definitely people in real life who mirror the miserable siblings of the show. People with more wealth than they could spend in a dozen lifetimes but are incapable of just enjoying it. I know if I had a fraction of their wealth I would quit my job tomorrow and make plans to travel the world.
And you'd be happy travelling the world for maybe a year and then get depressed because you have no purpose. I think most people are really terrible at imagining what would happen if they were rich...
@@YassoKuhl You're probably right. But of course the other thing about being rich is I'd be able to create some purpose. Maybe if I got bored of travel I'd start my own business or philanthropy like they were going to do with The 100. But it's all moot since I'm far from wealthy enough for any of this to be anything other than fantasy.
I loved the finale because I wanted it to end like this, no one wins, I was rooting for Kendall at the end because of the kitchen scene and they seemed great after and I love a happy ending but the second he denied killing someone I changed my mind again , no one deserved it.
Kendall has shown his arrogance, entitlement, and ego once he arrives at the office in the last 20 minutes of the finale. When Shiv walked out the door, Kendall could have comforted her and ask what it would take for her to feel comfortable to vote yes. For example, write down a temporary contract to offer her a COO position or co-CEO. That would have shut her up and she can commit to it. Instead of listening to what other wants and cater to it even just on the surface, Kendall made it all about himself and his “needs”. That’s not what Logan would do. Logan always said he will say whatever to get people in bed or align with him. That’s why the siblings are not killers and not serious people.
I haven’t loved a finale like this in a while, it was scary watching Kendall become Logan. I think Shiv and Roman though had my favorite arcs, it’s all tragedy!
20:24 Kendall pulls out Romans stitches more or less at his request. Prior to this moment Roman is feeling self conscious because it’s not him - remarking that the stitches look “too good”. He needed an excuse for why it wasn’t him and looking messed up battered provides that. Although there is clearly also some solidification of power dynamics happening as well.
Thank you, I Just wanted to point It out. Also, several times we saw Roman enjoy slightly abusive dinamics (the cage being a kid, the humiliation by Gerri). I actually think Kendall's hug was a tender moment, in its twisted, Royish way.
Does Shiv actually have more smarts and potential than Tom? I'd think Tom has more corporate experience and work experience. Shiv joined late in the game and her lack of experience was one oft he reasons for Logan not choosing her?
In regards to Shiv and her brothers- Kendall absolutely began to cut her out from jump but Roman did at every chance attempt to include Shiv . Absolutely
I think Tom's betrayal of Shiv had less to do with him truly being loyal to Logan and more to do with their relationship being obliterated. At that point Tom had taken punch after punch from Shiv. He took it because I think he genuinely loved her and she brought him close to power and money. Once his heart had been broken the only motivation left for him was to remain close to power and money and Logan was the optimal choice to acheieve that.
the point wasn't unfounded, Mattson flat out said he wants to have sex with her to Tom's face. as long as that was part of the equation, her gender is a factor.
@@LuisSierra42 at last someone said it 🤣🤣🤣. I watched a couple of other Succession ending explained. None of them, saw it the way "The take" saw it. All of them viewed Shiv as incapable. Feminist ideals is distorted from reality. There are capable women but Shiv is not one of them
I've felt like the writers gave each one of the siblings a moment to show how they would be as leaders, and they all failed because: a) they're arrogant nepo babies b) they don't care about the work process of their employees, they just want the results in a very unrealistic way. c) they don't have perception of what other people think of them. Roman is the first one who gets it when he says: "We're bullshit". And I just loved it. They're just empty copies of their father.
Nobody "won" on Succession. The kids ended up how they began, always wealthy, never happy. Tom may have won the coveted job title, but the price he has to pay is being a hapless puppet to an eccentric Swedish billionaire. Greg also ended up where he started, just an assistant to Tom. I thought that Shiv's key line was telling Kendall he would not be a good CEO because he killed someone. And Kendall's reaction, going into immediate denial only proves how right Shiv was. Kendall may never be held legally responsible for the death of the waiter, but it did end up being his ultimate downfall by robbing him of the position he has felt entitled to since he was seven. All in all, I would rate Succession's ending somewhat like "the Wire". Basically, there were some superficial changes, but still everything pretty much stayed the same, just with new people in the same old roles. And I think it is just fine and more realistic of an ending for both of these excellent shows.
I Knew Shiv was going to betray Kendall when she spat in the 'King Shake'. Not the sort of thing ppl do if they have truly buried the hatchet as was implied by their joint acceptance of the plan to obstruct the take over.
Didn't spot that , but there are a few subtle clues. When she was joking with roman about killing him at the waterside , that wasn't a joke in her head, she was planning the betrayal and that effectively killed kendall .
I mean, they are siblings. If one of my sisters did that I would be absolutely disgusted but I wouldn't be very surprised by that. It was a pretty normal sibling shithead behavior
I think it's pretty clear that Logan was also physically abusive to the boys and was in denial. Ex. After hitting Roman, his denial in the car, the fact that the children remember Logan hitting Roman and lots of other little details.
I think the discourse is too forgiving of Tom and Shiv. Trying to give either an overly positive spin on them as characters and their actions or how intelligent they are. They are just as dumb and corrupt as Roman and Kendall. That's the point of this show being a tragedy. All of these characters pine for something that they desperately want but they are not intellectually or morally deserving. Tom is a pain sponge that will have zero power and is willing to suffer through abuse despite the toll it takes on him to be and stay rich. Shiv has continually gone against her principles, pressured a woman to hush about the sexual harassment she experienced, and agreed to work with a problematic nazi president despite being staunchly against him moments prior.
@@Josh-the-man I guess? That does not hold him in higher regard when compared to the siblings. It's not as if because Tom works a little bit more than the other siblings he is somehow more deserving of success and power.
@@ApolloPlanetary actually he is lol. It is made clear he is actually competent. He deserves it way more than Roman and Shiv, Ken is a bit better than those two but Tom is clearly more deserving. He also knows when to shut his mouth, something the Roys cannot.
@@Josh-the-man He's not deserving and didn't even win. He was a suck up to Logan who used him and to Mattson who literally said that he wanted to f*ck Tom's wife and offered him a position that holds ZERO power or chance at succession
I’m sorry, but I have to chime in here. When discussing shiv, the narrator says, “…the people of this world weren’t going to let a female be on top.” Uh, this is ridiculous. You do know that Rhea Jarrell is a woman and was CEO of Pierce, right? To say that women can’t be CEOs in this world fits your narrative, but it rings hollow. The narrator also says that she basically doesn’t get the job because she’s a woman, and the narrator also says that Tom stole the job from her. She wasn’t going to get the job, regardless of who was getting it (Tom). Also, she didn’t get the job because, in addition to Lukas’ attraction to her, she BLEW IT. She was super pushy and like Rhea said, Shiv thinks she’s smarter than she is. SHiv was pushy just like she was at the Pierce dinner when she announced that she was going to be Logan’s chosen one for CEO. It’s not all about how the poor little rich girl is so weak because she’s a woman. Ugh.
Hugo left the company open to insider trading allegations - remember when he told his daughter about the potential sale before it was publicly announced? - and Karolina is smart enough to know and remember it
@@MeganWadden Agreed! Tom knew that Hugo and Kendall were aligned. It was the reason that he asked for Karolina as soon as he arrived on the floor, after being named CEO, with his entourage. In addition, I am now convinced that Shiv was speaking with someone while she was being driven to the board meeting. I think that someone was Tom, as she had the phone in her hand when she got out of the car. Karolina met her when she arrived and the conversation between the two was strange. Karolina was next to Shiv when Roman signed the sale papers and saw to it that Shiv was in the car when Tom came down stairs to leave the bldg.
This is just a really really bad take and does not take into account how layered this show is. For example, Shiv lost because (just like her brothers) she never changed. She constantly bullied and manipulated people expecting loyalty. You can see it in the first three episodes of the tv show. Logan specifically told her (s2 e2 I believe) that because she's a woman it's a minus - not because that's what he believes but because it's how the world works. The fact she did not understand that is the foundational issue with Shiv. She doesn't know how to properly estimate herself or others.
I really think Kendall could have gotten a win. Perhaps telling Shiv how much power she had in that moment. Instead of acknowledging it he tries to take it away from her.
nah. Shiv literally nuked the entire empire.. condemning herself to her worst possible outcome for no other reason than to just keep her brother(s) from having it
What's funny is that all that happens business-wise this season is that the deal becomes worth far more money, and Tom got the CEO position. But the kids are united at the start of the season, and by the end, they're all miserable and heartbroken again.
Shiv didn't explicitly lose because she's woman - she lost because she was gullible and easy to lead along. You dangle one thing in front of her and its all she sees. The broader point about how women are treated in this world are fair but please do better than your typical American point of view that everything is just sexism/racism/prejudice, please and thanks.
I disagree on take on Mattson and Shiv- he never wanted to make Shiv a CEO- it wasn't because of the article. He never said that he wanted her a CEO. It was Shiv saying that and Mattson just didn't deny it, because he could use Shivs insider knowledge. He played her. Just like her father did and she didn't see it, because she was given everything as a kid. What is more, Mattson was shown pretty early to loathe nepotism and Shiv doesn't have the experience or qualifications to become a CEO, making her a bad fit. Tom has the experience across multiple domain of the company, is hands on and doesn't have ego. The talk of sexual nature of Shiv to Tom was made to test him- how much can he take and if he will lay low or react aggressively. Tom passed the test as he didn't allow it to get to him. And Shiv didn't loose because she was a women. The world in Succession is really misogynistic but she made many mistakes. She never was good at judging the situation and people. In S2 she pushed away Frank who was eager to teach her the inner working of company and humiliated Karl- treating them as worse than her. Both of them are seniors on the board with voting power so mistreating them is a sign of utter lack of understanding of the company. She also loved to humiliate Tom and never saw him as a threat. She thought that Mattson liked her, when in reality he needed an internal point of view of the company and he was using her all along. She thought that her dad would give her a company without putting in the necessary work. All of these are the mistakes not due to her gender but due to her privileged and pampered upgringing. ALSO Shiv didn't secure anything for their children. Roys power was due to stock ownership and sits on the board. Shiv had both but got rid of them. Tom is just an employee who can get fired at any time and probably will be a CEO for max 5-6 years. And with that their connection to Waystar is gone.
Initially, many people including me thought Succession was just another "you have to be jerks to success" excuse. But i eventually realized at its core it's about cycle of abuse, and i actually feel sad for the Roy children. I'm angry at them but they're also sad people.
Interesting that the one who gets it is aptly nicknamed, Rome. With callbacks to Nero (Tom) it shows that the Logan empire has finally crumbled. Remember Nero is the last of the first Roman dynasty.
“Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
What they really wanted was to be loved and accepted by their father. I think this was a very happy ending for everyone. They get to walk away with a lot of money and find out who they are outside of the family-business for the first time in their lives. Lukas gets to take over the sinkiang ship and maybe save it, which he probably was the most capable person of doing, and it was Logans wish anyway. Kendall, Roman and Shiv are finally free.
Interesting points but personally I don’t think Lukas is capable of saving RoyCo/ATN. He bought an albatross. Like Twitter, he’s just going to run it into the ground.
I normally agree with the Take, but I disagree with the view on Shiv. Feels biased. From day one, she’s been shown to be just as bad as her brothers. When Logan offers the top spot for her, he tells her there has to be a process and presents her with roles in the company to give her experience and “in a few years, be ready”. She got angry and instead started telling people the position was hers publicly in season 2 when they tried to acquire that news outlet from the Pierces. That situation changes his mind about her. As Rhea said about her, “she thinks she’s smarter than she really is”. Just like Kendall thinks he’s cooler than he actually is. Time and again the show has shown that she’s not the person not because she’s a woman, hell Logan had set up Rhea to be the CEO until she backed out, but because she’s entitled just like her siblings. She didn’t play the game better, she played it just as bad as them. Remember, because of her, Mattson acquired everything, when they could’ve killed him from day one had the siblings just worked together. Almost every business decision she would make would start strong, but end up biting them back long term, just like her brothers. She voted against Ken, because she couldn’t stand the idea of Kendall taking the job and ‘winning’, it’s why she stuttered through random reasons why it can’t be him. I’d argue that she wasn’t thinking about Tom or the baby in that moment. If she had, she would’ve just voted for Ken, then planned a way to get him out like she had in the past. The only honest thing she said in that scene was “I can’t stomach you.” She’d rather everyone lose than to see her brother win. No sibling was right or morally good, they were all right, just for the wrong and worst reasons: hence, they were all wrong, and not “serious people.”
1 nitpick- totally with you on the sexism that shiv’s arc exposed, but i don’t think she objectively played it better than ken. Especially since she did the same celebrating-too-early gloating that ken is known for
The genius of the show is that Shiv is the most like her father and yet Shiv is demonized for behaving like him while Logan is praised and revered as a king.
This take gives waay too much credit to shiv. She's so blatantly conniving and shortsighted shell get taken for a ride like an elliptical regardless of gender. She's more entitled than her brothers that worked for the company and at least attended half a day of management training.
Shiv after Bitey : " Tom Wambsgans FINALLY MADE ME FEEL SOMETHING !". Tom in the last phone call : "YOU'VE FALLEN IN LOVE FINALLY !". Tom became more attractive to Shiv after he betrayed her for " keeping him out" .She didn't believe him capable of this independance from her. Note that they kept their wedding rings all the season 4. Except Tom who doesn't have it at the start of e1 but has it at the end of it. In their last phone call Tom agrees to an amicable divorce (Czecoslovakia->Velvet Divorce). Shiv will never follow up. Tom replies he doesn't know , to Shiv's "real relationship" request because he doesn't want to have her as a superior and has understood that he should no longer "servile" with her. Ask yourself the question of knowing why, when they both know that it's thanks to her vote that Tom becomes CEO, Shiv "congatulates" him and Tom answers her with a false modesty "Oh no no". Tom is gloating inside, because he has won everything he wanted from the beginning : Shiv + CEO + Money + Child. Ennd of the SCRIPT BOOK for Shiv and Tom in the car : An accomodation, an equilibrium, that could last with a certain stabilty, proxy wars and detentes for many years to come...nothing needy from either side. A queen and a prince. Two bombs transported with great care.
I think you're disregarding the fact that all first three seasons Shiv disregard her relationship with Tom or borderline mistreated him at times. I mean, she told him about the open relationship on their wedding night and didn't at least kept to herself that he was a good option for a fall guy un season two finale. The fact that him telling her that he's wondering about breaking up was an important plot point underlines the fact that there were real feelings and dynamics involved and that things we're changing. And also, during all season 3 she never once listened to his concerns about going to prison, the closest thing she did was telling him, in essence, "stop worrying, it will be fine" without making any effort to convince him. In season 3 finale he saw the 3 snob kids try to take over an international operation and when he asked his WIFE where he'd fit in she mumbled "high up, I don't know!". She never worried about him, and after 3 seasons of trying to form an equitative alliance he finally wondered why should he worry about her. Tom is not a nice guy, him "winning" is not a happy ending. They were all despicable in their on way all along, while remaining human. But to imply that "well actuallly, he only made it seem that he had feelings for Shiv but ALL ALONG he was ONLY interested in her father and power" is just not right and is missing quite a lot of additional depth in the character and the story ("missing the point" in a way). And also, humans don't work that way, we are always feeling
There were two men who were enemies, they made a lot of trouble in the kingdom. One day the king asked the first, to ask for any wish, and he will have it, but his enemy would have it double. The man then said "rip one eye off of me, so my enemy would be blind". I think that's Shiv, she became so envious of Kendall that she got the worst deal for her in order to screw up her brother.
I don't think she lost because he didn't like women, she lost because she wanted to control it too much to be a puppet. That's why he went looking for a replacement that would be a puppet.
Truly one the greatest show this is cinema Everything is just perfect like a tragic poem . Perfect justifiable ending You get what you do cycle of "Karma " No vulgar scenes , no explicit nudity , no R Rated scenes this show proves that how to make a drama series Great show great respect to the entire succession team Better the game of thrones in all angles 👍👍🙌🙌🙌🎉💫🎉
What an mating show 👌🏻 pleaser do a video on Kendal , his character sort of represents a tragic character arc because even if he wins he loses and if he loses well e has lost , either way it ends in tragedy for him , thanks a lot for the video 🙏🏻
One of the channel's best videos in a very long Time! I'm especially glad Shiv got some recognition and that her couple with Tom got analyzed so well ! Roman's "all nothing" reminded me of classic Shakespearean jester stock character "life's a stage" monologue. Also, congrats on foreshadowing in your previous breakdown that nobody would win. I honestly believed Logan never meant for his children to actually succeed (him). And i find it extremely interesting, in a Nepo-baby Era, that maybe, in the end, a Real succession IS actually about not succeeding but about refusing it and breaking free from perpetuating the cycle. It's self negating and an extremely compelling and daring thought to have.
Shiv thinks she's being overlooked for sexism. That's just 10% of it, the 90% is that she isn't qualified for the position, none of them are. They think they deserve the job more than Tom, despite the fact Tom has put in years of work at the company rising through the ranks. They aren't serious people they're spoilt children with delusions of grandeur and entitlement, but they have never had to work for anything in their lives. Shiv is competent with politics, she should've stayed in her original career. She manages political campaigns well, that's all she was doing for Mattson too which is why she wins. She doesn't have the skills or experience for CEO. Kendall and Roman have a competent skillset too and have some talent, but again they aren't at the level to run the company.
Well Tom doesn’t deserve it either to be fair. He is just as clueless and unqualified as them but he was willing to be a lapdog so he got the role. While there is a lot of sexism in Succession and the broader business world, I actually think Logan would have chosen Shiv if he thought she had any ability to do the job, which she didn’t. Shiv just finds it easier to blame sexism 100% than to take any accountability.
@@thepragmaticspiritualist7074 i see Tom as far more qualified & competent than the siblings. Mainly because he knows his place. The kids think they can run the company and be Logan when they can't. Tom knows he's not Logan but he is able to be Mattson's pain sponge. Tom's willing to pay his dues and work his way up, he has patience and work ethic. The siblings were born at the finish line and have been given everything and earned nothing their whole lives. Tom has accepted a very difficult and hard job as pain sponge. He's willing to endure stuff the kids wouldn't do. He's genuinely earning the opportunities he gets. He knows a decent amount of sycophancy and nepotism is needed to get to the top. Tom was willing to go to prison to advance his career. He was too busy working to go to Logan's funeral. He barely slept in season 4 because he takes work seriously and makes sacrifices for it. He also sees the value in Gregg and Gerri and can see dead wood like Karl, Frank and Hugo a mile off. I think Logan's 1st choice was Ken but he acted like a child. I think Shiv was his 2nd choice but she proved a failure too. Roman was the last chance and the final straw so he decides to sell up. But I think he gave them each a fair crack at essentially interviewing for the job over the course of the first 3 seasons before selling.
@@ExplainedThroughRap you don’t actually need to be competent or smart to be a pain sponge so Tom is perfect. Contrary to popular opinion, Tom hasn’t put in tons of work. He’s a nepo spouse and doesn’t do a lick of work.
@@thepragmaticspiritualist7074 What? Tom does work, throughout the series, especially shown in Season 4. Can't say the same for either of the 3 siblings.. well Kendall had also done SOME work early on, but his hubris and immaturity got in his way.
Thank you for this nuanced and accurate portrayal of the succession finale. So many other Video Essayists fail to take into account these characters from the very beginning of their arcs.
Your attempt to rehabilitate Shiv requires that you ignore the basic truth of this series: these people are all deeply flawed human beings. Shiv is not a feminist hero. She has been sucked into the cycle of betrayal. I even suspect her unusual name - Shiv - means to alert us that it the end, she will be the one to stick in the shiv to betray those who have betrayed her.
I believe Shiv is second to the most miserable outcome to Kendall. The whole point of her development was not only to make her like her mother, but to want to despise men while trying to become one while begging for scraps. She decided to try to be game to going in the boys-club by pretending to be one, hence she decided to intimidate a rape victim at her fathers behest for a position she would never get because she has no work experience. Even told time and time again, men and women alike she never worked a day in her life for the company. She sold out whatever quasi-liberal beliefs she had with quitting Gillis and her true love, to delusionally tell herself that she was going hardball to be CEO when she should have looked at the truth her dad lied so Gillis wouldnt destroy him as president. All of her frustrations she took out on Tom, viewing him as his puppet as wll peon from upbringing, than as a loving husband who brought this unknown affection from the outside. She dismantled her womanhood and pretended to be light on her father when it came to the questioning mysoginistic actions in his company. Even dressing more neutral and dark tones than her charasmatic colorful silk blouses. The question is if Shiv is soley responsible for designing her own Hell or was it Logan?
Shiv suffered the worst outcome and it's not even close. and the sick and twisted poetry of it all is SHE CHOSE that outcome for herself... because she would rather live out her worse life than let her own brother be king.
@penoyer79 That's what I'm saying she designed her own Hell. However, she has somewhat of a leverage over Tom with the baby. She will be in her own Hell of being her mother, Caroline, but still has the child as a connection. I think Kendall has the worst outcome. He was shaped to be his fathers prodnogy since age seven. He shaped his life for his father, including education, working extensively, missing life moments, and trying to numb it with drugs. Whats sad is his ideas were great in the beginning, and his father thought they were dumb based on his projected masculinity. Even worse, he threw any moments with his family at his father's behest, which caused his divorce and a custody battle. When Roman tells him at last moment that Logan never regarded his kids as actual Roy's he realizes too late that he invested his whole life chasing his father's shadow.
@@JimmyJojoshabadoo the sad thing is they probably could have made it work if they could just work together. the 3 of them in charge with Kindall leading the way could have worked. it was working. but their savage competitiveness with each other - their drive to tear each other down and win at all cost - was so ingrained in them from their father that it was doomed to fail
@penoyer79 Sure, maybe. The thing is, Kendall doesn't have to be a beast like his father, but he lacks toughness. He is smart, though, with seeing the future of information. Roman is a good negotiator and really hits with deals, but he lacks dignity and respect for himself and others. Shiv has expertise in legal and management in PR, so she would have helped being a shield for Roystar, but in the end, all three thought they could make do without the other. They are truly a house divided, thanks to Logan. If anything, it would be more sensible if an old guard like Gerri was CEO and the Roy kids agreed to be board members.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
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I have a question do they have any ownership of the business or did they sold what ever part ownership of the business I still don't understand can you please just lay it down for me if you don't mind.
I took Mattheson saying he wanted to have sensual relations with Shiv in front of him, part because he did, but also because he wanted to see how Tom would act in order to confirm that he is willing to be a puppet pain cushion.
And Tom swallowed his pride and acted accordingly.
But at that point, she damaged him to the extent that one could also interpret as "Yeah, the conniving B**** that almost sent me prison? Yeah, you can have her." If he still retained his bubbly personality from Season 1 he would jumped right at him.
Well if anyone knows anything about swallowing something unpleasant, Tom is the expert. He swallowed his own "load" at the bachelor party, and he swallowed the news from Shiv that she wanted an open relationship on their wedding night.
Lukas Mattson will most likely force him to swallow a lot of unpleasantness before eventually cutting him loose.
Yep. He did the same thing with Shiv and the Ebba story. She put on a cool girl act and won him over, but then fumbled by failing to realise it was that, not her supposed 'smarts', that won him over.
Mattson said what he said about Shiv because he wanted to see if Tom buckles under pressure. Any normal man would have snatched another man's throat out for saying that about their wife, but Shiv broke Tom. It was more about success for him than love.
It was absolutely a test.
I wish you also covered Connor. He kept himself out of the family business, yet seem to have known Logan the best among the siblings.
He was interested in politics from a very early age
This vid is too interested in talking about Shiv
I was genuinely disappointed in how the finale kind of just forgot about Connor. I also don't like that he didn't get to speak at Logan's funeral because i think that could have been some very interesting dialogue. I would have loved to have seen Logan memorialized and described in death by his 1st born whom he had sort of ostracized. I get he was planning on saying some weird political shit which is why the siblings felt the need to shut him down but they could have at least let him talk for a few minutes as long as he agreed to keep it kosher, so to speak. He was Logan's kid too.
@@joelmontague5004 Even Logan forgot that Connor was Logans son.
@@joelmontague5004 but the finale ended up showing how Connor had the closest bond with his father. That table hang out with Logan and the old guard and Connor showed how Logan actually enjoyed Connor's company despite never having much respect for him. That showed more than all the moments of "love" Logan ever showed the 3 siblings combined. I loved that the finale subtly revealed that.
the fact that Kendall also goes from being extremely protective over Roman and his children over Logan's violence to perpetuating that violence towards Roman twice in the final episode (as well as possibly going after Shiv and only being restrained by Roman) is something that I don't think is talked about as much as some of Kendall's other heel face turns
Yes, sad to see what noble instincts he had
Roman had to shoot his mouth about his children. He earned that wrath. I think he got off easy I would have thrown him through the glass
@@holidaygerry he had already popped his stitches open in a ‘hug’ at that point. not excusing what roman said, it was pointlessly cruel, but ken had already been violent towards him.
Anyone brother would do the same thing if they talk shit about their family. What roman said was below the belt.
I think you mean "face-heel turns". Heel is the bad guy, (baby)face is the good guy
“We are bullshit, we are nothing” that statement makes Roman the winner to me. He accepted his reality
a reality they created because they couldn't work together.
they'd rather scorch the earth than allow the other to be king.
Shiv's decision was simple "If it's not me than not any of us."
the whole "you killed someone" was just her throwing a f**k-you pie in his face.
winner of what?
It hit the nail on the coffin as soon as he said that line.
Winner amongst the Siblings, but that's hard to say. Though him accepting reality instead of trying to escape into more delusions of grandeur or denial is probably better for him mentally in the long term.@@BlueeeBanisters
Roman was not smart enough to know how not be bullshit.
Just a little correction - it’s wrong to assume Shiv secured her future child’s succession because Tom doesn’t own the company. Mattson does who can replace him just as easily as he appointed him. CEO positions in companies you don’t own are not hereditary. Also I don’t think Shiv betrayed Kendell because he was turning into Logan. Because she flimsily uses the manslaughter as an excuse before Kendell starts lying about making that up - if that had been an issue she would’ve never aligned herself with Kendell in this episode. I think the company is what their father loved the most so winning the company would mean winning his approval and she couldn’t stand to watch that happen.
Yup , also if Jimenez becomes president he’ll likely want Tom replaced as CEO since he caused the election upset
She thought Kendall was wrong for the job but didn’t have a good reason for it other than she wanted it
@@Black_pearl_adrift So Jesse Armstrong’s interview just released and he confirmed that it was a spontaneous reaction to her brother winning and she couldn’t stand that.
@@rhearoy2338 Interesting. It checks out anyway since she's always been so impulsive. It was her weakness
Shiv definitely has the "if I can't have it, you all can't either" view for her brothers. And yes, even if Tom is replaced as CEO, he will always have the upperhand over Shiv as long as they are married. Shiv has become like her mother, the last person she wanted to be.
Greg is Tom. And Tom sees that. I didn't see Tom putting the sticker on Greg as only about owning him now. I saw it as seeing himself in Greg and bringing him along as the new Tom. And when Greg gets the power he desires he'll get his own Greg to Greg him, becoming Tom, and perpetuating that cycle.
I couldn’t agree more!
Master and pupil.
"You can't make a Tomellet without breaking some Greggs"
Right... Like a sith relation.
@@ursamagickmt672 Brilliant Sir.
Shiv’s biggest flaw in everything she does is she can only think about herself. Just like Kendall, she did not learn from her father Logan to see what people wants and use it as leverage. Logan understands the ATN audience, he understands and orchestrated what his children wants (CEO) and constantly dangling it to their face for them to do what he wants.
Shiv never tries to understand what Tom wants, or what Matsson wants. They constantly tells her, even to her face, but she’s so self entitled that she won’t listen.
If she understands and considers what Tom wants and need, they would have been a truly powerful dynamic and win the game much earlier. If she understands what Matsson wants, she would have tone down her aggressiveness and “girl boss” attitude and sucking up to Matsson more as the puppet. Even to Greg, she threatens him without giving him anything, which lead to him selling her out.
She can’t be considerate because she thinks she’s smarter than every men out there. That arrogance is what lead to her downfall.
But was it really a downfall for her? She may not have won the coveted job title, but she will always be wealthy no matter what happens even if she and Tom get divorced.
I think she voted yes not out of spite, but because when it came right down to it, she really didn't think that Kendall would be good at the job because throughout the series run, Kendall has demonstrated how incompetent he is at times when he was in charge.
Even Roman could barely swallow his "no" vote. He wanted to disappear. He even told Kendall that they were all just "bull----".
And I think Shiv was sincere when she told him he shouldn't be CEO because he killed someone. And Kendall's extreme denialism was only proof that she was making the right call.
All three siblings are guilty of trying to project want they want to happen onto others This is a classic Logan tactic, he used it to bully his staff into compliance. It works best from a position of strength, which Logan nearly always had. When he didn't, he seamlessly switches gears to bargain so he can regain his position.
The siblings are at their best and most dangerous when they are humbled. That's where Tom and Greg operate. But humiliation is painful and the siblings don't have Tom or Gregs tolerance. So as soon as they get some success, they salvage their ego's and rebound.
@@annejohnson5875 Logan made several bad calls as CEO, he kept the position through force of personality. As Roman points out, the choice between Matson and Kendall means very little. They are both abusive and entitled pieces of shit. The businesses they operate are fraudulent and destructive.
Shiv just can't stand losing to Kendall, because he's her brother. She knows his failures intimately, and that makes losing to him too bitter to swallow.
If there were a moment for Shiv to swallow her pride and sacrifice her ambitions for something meaningful, it would have been when ATN was making the election call. If she was ever going to convince Kendall to do the right thing, she had to come clean about her deal with Matson, and then work overtime to broker an agreement between Kendall and Jimenez.
Well she did kill a lot of jobs in Waystar and doing the backstabbing after the nice night that they had was really low. I think all 3 of them are awful and this is the ending that they deserve. I also think she would have had a better shot at controlling parts of the company if they were together but now she is stuck with Tom and estranged from family because she wanted the top job.
100% this. My take as well for why she didn’t end up winning the game of throne
It occurs to me that the happiest people in the family are Connor and Caroline - the two who have most divorced themselves from Logan and the Family Business. This is also why Roman is possibly the happiest (or at least the least unhappy) of the three in the end. Shiv is literally married to the business, and Kendall has no concept of being anything other than Logan’s heir apparent. Roman, like his mother and half brother, is free of it all, and he sees it the most clearly.
Caroline is in no way happy
I'm not sure Roman has a bright future ahead. The director spoke about how he thinks Roman is going to have a rough time. That final fading of the smile says a lot
Except Connor got screwed in this episode too. It seemed like his relationship was heading in a better direction, but then you see how Willa wants him to be as far away from her as possible. I thought they'd get comfortable with each other in a loveless marriage, but no, even that is apparently too much to hope for.
Well they sure aren’t divorced from Logan’s money
Now if only Roman would go back to therapy...
I feel like Tom actually loved Shiv in the first seasons but given all the issues they had he decided to be loyal to Logan rather than Shiv as his relationship's status was so volatile.
I think Tom would have betrayed her anyway. He really loves money. Super powers like he said. He did love her though, like you said in season 1
Imagine Logan being the more stable option lol. Those kids are not serious people.
@@fearless6947 Tbh it's possible he really seems to love money a lot😅
@@nelsonsxs3515 exactly lol. he's always been like this. I believe he still loves Shiv though but would betray her for money. Shiv said to Tom before, you should take over the company but she doesn't mean it though lol. She wants it
The show was great for keeping Tom's intentions ambiguous in the first seasons. But, I don't think he ever loved her. He loved the money, the power, and the access she provided. Once he got in good with Logan, he didn't show much regret at the thought of losing her. I think that's why Shiv decided to keep the baby, as a way to get him to stay by her side.
Shiv lost cause she misjudged Mattson and overplayed her hand with him. She couldn’t read him well enough to see that he didn’t want an equal, he wanted a lapdog.
She herself kept telling him Tom was a ass kisser, putting the idea into his head while showing him she would never do the same.
Think it’s a biased take to read that as “Shiv played it better but lost cause she’s a woman.” Quite reductive and makes for a much less interesting character.
Totally agree. Mattson was using her from the start, and never had any intention of making her US CEO. Shiv was never going to win, and if anything played it the worst out of the three siblings.
i knew it when he saw the article
Thank you!
I don't agree. Mattson quite literally says "I want to f*ck her" therefor she can't be CEO. She also prostrated herself for him at the funeral and described herself as HIS puppet. She read him exactly right. When the article came out she immediately offered to wrangle the media for him because she KNEW it was a problem.
Mattson's ego and vanity were ultimately the deciding factors in Tom being CEO, he was always going to pick a male sycophant who he wasn't interested in sexually harassing. Shiv DID lose in large part because she's a woman in that corporate environment.
@@karinaleyva7620 I partly agree with you. Mattson's misogyny is definitely a factor. However, my take on Mattson telling Tom that he wanted to f*@k Shiv felt more like a test to see how servile Tom could be. Mattson could see that the comment angered him, but he downplays it and sucks it up. Which is what Mattson wanted to see!
In S3 when Shiv told Tom explicitly “I don’t love you” how can she be surprised that she went behind her back and sided with her father in law? Be honest.
Watching the early seasons of the show Shiv is so so cruel to Tom, it’s painful to watch.
And Shiv the entire Season 4 is complaining of why Tom betrayed her and even wants to divorce him. Even Tom is concerned if he got divorced, will he work with Logan again?
Logan even blocked every divorce lawyers in America to make sure they're staying.
She even called Logan as Human Gaslight while in fact she's gaslighting Tom every time! Like father, like daughter.
There was in fact a lot of misoginy in shiv’s life and in the company, however, that was not the reason she lost. In the end, it was because she was as incompetent as her brothers, she got played by mattson and she never really had a shot of becoming the CEO , but not because she’s a woman, but because she never had any proper experience inside the company, and that’s all her fault.
In the finale, she did not make a strategic choice of backstabbing her brother, she did that because she could not bear to see him being the boss, and I saw people saying “but now she’s married to the boss and will give birth to his child”, but Tom is not the boss, he’s just a guy in a suit that Mattson needs so he can rule. The company belongs to Mattson now, and there is no way in hell that she can takeover from him, while she would have a big chance of taking Kendall down, she was rash and infantile in her decision, and Kendall and Roman were also childish in their demeanor in that final moment.
In the most important moment of their lifes, none of them were “serious people”, just big children fighting for a big toy.
I totally like this comment 👌
And yet Mattson’s victory was directly attributed to Shiv in the end. Interesting
Exactly, thanks.
Couldn’t agree more
Yup ❤
There was a good point I heard mentioned about this resolution: Lucas didn't need someone he would have to fight with. All Roys would've fought him for control. They were trained to do that, and Shiv would've fought the hardest. What he needed was someone who would run things and obey when needed. Tom filled that role to a T.
I think you're giving Shiv way too much credit. I think it's been proven repeatedly throughout the series that Shiv's major flaw is that she isn't as smart as she really thinks she is.
Shiv’s whole cycle is
- I think I’m smarter than everyone
- I scheme
- Scheme blows up in my face
- Now I need my family
- Back to base 1
She's smarter than her brothers - her problem is that means she thinks she's smarter than everyone
Couldn’t agree more
@@helengordon-smith5753she’s smarter but has zero loyalties, accomplished nothing positive on the show, she showed she has killer instinct but she doesn’t know how to use it, she just kills for the thrill of killing never without any goal/strategy in mind, Shiv is just a spiteful child that didn’t get what they wanted, which I would hardly say she edges the brothers out in any way. They are bullshit, equal bullshit.
Woke channel requires strong female screwed by men narrative I guess.
Shiv is the most dangerous of the 3 siblings! You seemed to paint her as this almost victim when she is a malignant narcissist and the most like her father. She used people to get her way constantly and tells herself that she is "altruistic " and a better person than her siblings. But the clue is in her nickname Shiv. A small weapon used for quick, dirty strikes that you don't see coming. All the Roys, including Conner, are some form of narcissist but Shiv is the worst of them, after Logan.
They're all narcissists. The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree.
How is she the worst lmao. Her brothers did some equally heinous things like electing a facist, manslaughter. Kendall literally physically assaulted Roman to manipulate him which is exactly what Logan would do. It's just stupid to argue which sibling is the worst in the show
True. All her betrayals were shivs to those closer to her at that moment. Every time someone opened up and gave her trust, she shived.
They can’t help it, you’ll see that whenever they discuss a female character. They’re either a badass or a victim, even when they’re straight up evil. She definitely wasn’t the biggest victim of the family, she probably had it the best out of anyone if we’re going to be real.
You are leaning too hard on Shiv losing out because she's a woman. She is also genuinely incompetent, very immature at times, and overestimates her own intelligence in business matters. She has her moments, but they are few and far between, and I don't think we've seen evidence to suggest she'd be better as CEO than Kendall or Tom (though I grant you she would probably have been better than Roman, but that's a very low bar)
I was hoping they’d put the obvious feminist agenda on the side here. Couldn’t help themselves. “Oh, the women have suffered”, yes, so have a lot of men, but I guess they don’t matter.
I think Greg at the time he discloses to Ken that Shiv will not be a CEO, doesn’t know that Tom is going to be the CEO. He just knows that they will be keeping their jobs. So technically Greg didn’t betray Tom. It just seems like he did because it felt like it in the moment, but he really didn’t know.
Imma argue the opposite.
Shiv's S4 journey mirrors Roman's. Slowly realising they hate this game & the only reason they were playing it is gone. No amount of cunning can undo Logan's last comment. He simply didn't think they could do it.
Shiv had real power for the first time at the end. She could've carved a good seat of Waystar herself - under Kendall. She could've risked security for power. But Shiv has a moment where she realises she doesn't care for the power. She doesn't want it, nor the responsibility that comes with it. It does nothing for her.
The power to Roman & Shiv was a means to impress Daddy. Being CEO was not a job - it was the finish line. Dad loves me most. Both give it up in the end - they both realise they simply don't have the guts to do the job, Logan can't undo his choices & they simply aren't the best choice for the company itself.
Then Kendall dug himself a grave. He sealed his own fate by being unable to let Shiv decide for herself. It was 50/50 in her mind. Had he built her up & told her to trust him - rather than demand obedience - he would've got it. Kendall misunderstood Logan's tactics at the most pivotal moment. Being a bully doesn't work. Judging character works.
Roman responded to shame. Shiv responded to praise. Kendall responded to validation.
It's painful to watch - but ultimately Shiv felt more secure losing power. Roman was about a week away from quitting himself.
Kendall couldn't see what was in front of him.
Great comment
shiv doesn't care for power? keep telling yourself that lol
@@moonchiId.
She doesn't. She wants to he recognised for being clever, she wants to be told she's the smartest & most effective. They way to do that with Logan was to achieve power.
Whenever Shiv made a good play - Logan patted her on the back like no one else. When she started getting big headed - he would suddenly snap & put her back in her place. He treated Roman the exact opposite - because Roman plans often never worked out.
With Kendall specifially he withheld love - recognising Kendall's weakness is caring too much what others think.
Shiv does NOT want power for the sake of power. The original plan was for Tom to step up as CEO & Shiv to keep her stuff going on the outside. She wanted influence & position - but the actual power was secondary. It became very clear to her in the end how little she truly cared for Waystar as a company.
No Shiv lied pure and simple.
@@VinsHourOne
Shiv lies, her actions don't. She would objectively have more power under Kendall than as the husband of a puppet CEO for a dude who played her.
She gave her power up for security - finally submitting to the truth of her gender in the business world. It's cruel but true. Men are favoured.
The only one of them that was with Logan in that "party" at the table was Connor, the eldest son, who did not care about the crown.
Connor's last scene summed up Connor perfectly. Living out a meaningless life doing mundane bullshit in the most overcomplicated manner possible.
The finale was such a roller-coaster of emotions, that I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. Shiv is basically in the same position with Tom as Caroline was with Logan, trapped in a loveless marriage with a child that she's not sure if she really wants, Roman goes back to hanging out in bars, but is clearly traumatised by the entire ordeal, and Kendall has fractured most of his relationships, and is left mostly alone by the end, aside from Colin, unable to live up to Logan's legacy.
"Roman goes back to being a playboy" when has Roman been a playboy? he can't even have normal sex
roman is relieved.
he is finally free from the burden
Yeah I think you hit it right on the head. She went from being in Logan's sphere of influence to Tom's.
Interesting is Roman was drinking Gerri’s drink at the end
This is not the same era as when Caroline was young. If Shiv didn’t want this baby she would not be having it.
Greg actually was not trying to betray Tom, he tried to play with Kendall as the only sibling who liked him to secure his position and didn't know Tom was going to be the new CEO. Tom knows that Greg is trying to survive in any way possible, as he's doing himself, and doesn't fully trust anyone, as he taught him to
I don't agree Shiv is more clever than her brothers. She was played as were they. They all have their moments, and Roman was at least self-aware in the last episode. But, Shivs still the most interesting character to me. Also, we don't know if she was sidelined out of business. It did look as she wanted to be in politics at the beginning and it was her choice. We have no proof she would be better than Tom at the job. He works really hard, does she?
She was played, but she was smart enough to understand that as much as she hated Matsson and Tom, they were far more suited to run Waystar than Ken and Roman. The company was built by a shark and could only be run by a shark, with Tom as his servile lapdog. Shiv knew that if she couldn’t be CEO, at least she could be way richer by selling her shares at a high price than to tank her wealth by giving her drug addict, scatterbrained, weak-willed brother the top position.
I think shiv is the smartest but that doesn’t win every situation. They all have different skills that come into play at different time. Ken is much better speaker Rome is unscrupulous
@@Radjhitoocool now this days, being conniving is called being “smart”
Shiv got absolutely played by Mattson and Kendall figured it out before she did. She may be smart, but not in this corporate realm.
@@pji1979 Kendall did not figure it out he was directly told by Greg Who snitched because he was worried about being fired. People believe in Ken cause he’s a good speaker and he’s the eldest boy
I also want to say that I think a big factor in Shiv voting ‘no’ was to keep Tom. Ultimately, Shiv doesn’t want to lose Tom, and she k1lled Kendall to protect Tom. And this isn’t the first time she’s done this. Remember at the end of season 2, on the yacht, she begged Logan not to choose Tom to be the face of the cruises scandal, even though it probably meant Ken going to prison.
This. It was as simple as “Do I give it to the man I just begged to come back?” Or “Do I give it to the brother who killed someone?”
Yes. People keep forgetting Shiv saved Tom at the end of Season 2. And in this finale, she helped anoint Tom as CEO.
true. thats why when tom kept pointing out that shiv was gonna watch him go to prison. i kept thinking "she was willing to let her dad send her brother, her family to prison to protect u"
Superficial analysis. To say Shiv was smarter than her brothers, or principled, is to turn a blind eye to all her dumb mistakes, including being played like a fiddle by Matsson. And as if she cares one iota about changing the culture at the company, making it more female positive. In Episode 9 she was ready to make a deal with the “devil”, Mencken, if it meant she could be CEO. In the end, she turned on Kendall simply because she couldn’t bear to see him “win”. She acted true to her character, the Shiv, the scorpion.
This. Tom really nailed it with the Scorpion
Feminist ideals is very distorted from reality.
let's not forget how she talked the female key witness out of testifiying in the court about the cruises harrassment and assault scandels to win Logan's approval
Siobhan does not owe Kendall, Rome or Connor anything. She has a pact with Tom, which she fulfilled. He got his CEO position(because of her vote); she is pregnant. He told her in season 1, she can do as she pleases after she filled her part of the bargain.
what a great show! HBO hasn't had a good finale like this since The Sopranos in my opinion
u be watching the take - u got taste king
What about True Detective? I think the ending is really good and satisfying
The Wire and Leftovers had great finales too. So did the miniseries I May Destroy You.
The Barry finale was pretty good as well
@@LuisSierra42 yes, I was going to bring Barry up too. One of the best I’ve ever seen
I wanted Kendall to win so bad but I still loved the ending, you wonder about his mental state with that last shot and what he might do with nothing left.
Once he decided to take custody of his kids away from his ex wife, I was rooting against him.
Logan won.
The deal was made.
The kids got nothing they really wanted.
“Because. I. Win.”
Death: Sorry, Logan. You can't win this one..
Logan lost. He was a meager person (his brother’s words) without any love in his life.
And his “best buddy” was his bodyguard, to whom he left a watch (??). Now that is a sad life…
Logan never wanted to sell ATN
@@everythingshareable Then that's worse, since he was still doing it.
This finale was a mix of "with great powers comes great responsibility" and "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain"
when it came to Shiv, Kendall and Roman... they were always the villains - to each other and themselves.
How is Tom being CEO ensures that his kid to be successor if the company is not even his (he’s just a regional CEO)?
The big winner nobody’s talked about is Sandy Furness. The Roys lost the family business and Sandy made a lot of money when he (and Sandi) cashed out. It’s too bad he lost his sanity trying to destroy the Roys when all he had to do was watch them do it to themselves.
I don’t know where you got the impression that Shiv is a talented businesswoman who only lost out because she’s a woman. There was no indication in the show she was ever any good.
Women always blame men for the failures of women...
As a person who's favorite character was Tom. The final episode felt so good.
I don't know how the Shiv and Tom relationship is going to go. I just hope their child turns out alright.
My favorite character was Gregg and there's a good chance he'll succeed Tom now that he's in power
Same! Team Tom for life, he deserves the top spot and he’ll love having it even if he is a pain sponge/puppet. I think if Shiv can recalibrate and accept being the less dominant partner they’ll be happy. To me that’s what the last image of them in the car nodded to.
The child won't turn out alright. That's part of the point. The toxic cycle continues.
Hahaha there is no child! These aren't REAL people who's lives are going on 😂 but without the camera.
@@h33-q8w Missing the point completely. Bless your little heart 😂
I dont think Mattson didn't give Shiv the CEO role because shes a woman, i think he never intended to give it too her. I think the "fucking shiv" comments from Mattson were more to test Tom's servile nature more than anything else.
but it was also 100% true.
It's a very reductive analysis about Shiv's trajectory. She is smart, she has good knowledge about politics and can be a good advisor, but she wasn't ready to be a CEO. So maybe Logan never took her seriously because of her gender when she was younger, and in a way resented her siblings for that. But as soon as she started in the company, she repeated the same mistakes of her brothers, feeling as entitled and engrossed by power.
The viewer should not trust the characters of the show. Shiv is an interesting character, but her moral compass is biased, always using sexism as a defense, while never aknowledging her own priviledge. She used her name to climb the ladder but justified herself by being "the smarter" out of the 3 with no competence whatsoever required for the job except the name.
If Shiv had been a CEO and if she had failed, she would have blame all the men in the world because she can't accept failure.
But if there is one thing we can't take from her, is that she had the killer instinct and maybe, (maybe!) , she could have been a good CEO but only with a better preparation and more self-critic.
And finally, Shiv has flaws, she has done pretty terrible thing and that's okay. Not all women have to be some sort of "superheroine", women are allowed to be as sneaky as men.
It is NEVER "okay" to be a terrible person and do terrible things no matter what gender you are.
@@bowtoyoursensei554 Of course it is not, it was more about the double standard, expecting women to be "only nice or supportive" in real life. But also about the feminist take of the video that her struggle as a woman should excuse every bad behaviour she had while it's not entirely true.
It was more like "hey women can also be mean and as bad as men"! They did a better video about Shiv's blindsided perspective, it is a more nuanced and interesting take about her.
@@vickypedia7177 💯
I find it interesting that everyone thinks Roman's end was so bad. Don't get me wrong, it was all traumatizing and he is clearly still fucked up with lots of work to do, but my interpretation of his quick smile at the end was that he's finally free.
Brilliant post mortem on a brilliant show, but I honestly got hung up in the first 30 seconds when you mentioned that all of the Roy siblings have 'arrested development', because I realized somewhere in season 3 that Succession has an enormous amount of parallels to that amazing comedy 😂:
- 4 kids (3 boys and one girl)
- all kids trying to get their dad's attention and favor, but to no avail
- the dad actively pitting his kids against each other
- the dad having an affair with his much younger assistant
- an emotionally distant mother
- one sibling is married to a HIGHLY unsuccessful theatre person
- the second born son who is trying his hardest to gain control of the company
- a daughter who is married to an outsider who isnt highly respected (if at all) by the rest of the family... or indeed his wife
- the youngest brother who has an affair with a woman who could be his mother
Any other parallels people see, feel free to add 😆
PS, look up the AI created video of making the first episode of season 4 of Succession like an episode of Arrested Development.... its CRAZY funny! 😂😂😂
Shiv didn’t lose because she’s a woman. In a lot of ways she’s way smarter than her siblings. She lost because the corporate world was never her arena, she went into politics first and while that is very valuable on a confident/advisor to the CEO role, she does not have the experience and both the boards and shareholders would not go for her as the successor despite her name.
I’m a woman and I approve this message.
Yep, she's smarter but sometimes she acts as if she knows things she actually doesn't
Remember in one of the earlier seasons even logan wanted her to work in waystar and gain some experience and she totally dismissed it. At the end of the day shiv thinks she can do it but she flubs her chances most times due to her lack of experience.
In my opinion the corporate world was never her arena is because it was never presented to her as an option, and it was never presented to her as an option because she was a woman. I noticed that Connor and Shiv have a different sort of relationship with Logan (he’s softer with them) from Kendall and Roman (he’s much more strict with them), and I have a feeling it’s because they weren’t being groomed for waystar. When Logan invited her into the fold, her shock made it feel like that was the first time she’d ever been considered for the business.
And because she's a woman.
Tom, Logan and cousin Greg are different stages of the same person
Stepping back for a moment, The Roys got exactly what they wanted in Season 4 Ep. 1. They own Pierce and The 100. Tom and Greg got promotions. Matsson owns Royco. Succession had a somewhat happy ending despite the emotional outbursts.
Let's point out that Mattson didn't pick Shiv because, as he said to Tom explicitly he didn't want someone with new ideas or someone that tried to bring a revolution to the Waystar corporate ecosystem, he just wanted someone to be a pain sponge and to follow orders, that's it!
Exactly! He wanted an empty suit and Tom is the only one of them who would do that.
The point made in the end is the best one. They should’ve just taken the money.
Shiv trusted Mattson. As far as I'm concerned, it was a very clear sign that she wasn't as smart as her brothers.
The moment where Greg slaps Tom back I knew Greg has become Tom now, he’s willing to put up with shit but only for so long. Willing to flip on a dime depending on what’s in it for him, I loved that for Greg weirdly enough
Tom took all the misery that Shiv inflicted upon him
and projected it all onto Greg
I loved that slap!
It really amazes me that there's definitely people in real life who mirror the miserable siblings of the show. People with more wealth than they could spend in a dozen lifetimes but are incapable of just enjoying it. I know if I had a fraction of their wealth I would quit my job tomorrow and make plans to travel the world.
And you'd be happy travelling the world for maybe a year and then get depressed because you have no purpose.
I think most people are really terrible at imagining what would happen if they were rich...
@@YassoKuhl You're probably right. But of course the other thing about being rich is I'd be able to create some purpose. Maybe if I got bored of travel I'd start my own business or philanthropy like they were going to do with The 100. But it's all moot since I'm far from wealthy enough for any of this to be anything other than fantasy.
I loved the finale because I wanted it to end like this, no one wins, I was rooting for Kendall at the end because of the kitchen scene and they seemed great after and I love a happy ending but the second he denied killing someone I changed my mind again , no one deserved it.
In 5 minutes Kendall undid 5 years of character progression. Truly beautiful and insane.
Kendall has shown his arrogance, entitlement, and ego once he arrives at the office in the last 20 minutes of the finale. When Shiv walked out the door, Kendall could have comforted her and ask what it would take for her to feel comfortable to vote yes. For example, write down a temporary contract to offer her a COO position or co-CEO. That would have shut her up and she can commit to it. Instead of listening to what other wants and cater to it even just on the surface, Kendall made it all about himself and his “needs”. That’s not what Logan would do. Logan always said he will say whatever to get people in bed or align with him. That’s why the siblings are not killers and not serious people.
I haven’t loved a finale like this in a while, it was scary watching Kendall become Logan. I think Shiv and Roman though had my favorite arcs, it’s all tragedy!
20:24 Kendall pulls out Romans stitches more or less at his request. Prior to this moment Roman is feeling self conscious because it’s not him - remarking that the stitches look “too good”. He needed an excuse for why it wasn’t him and looking messed up battered provides that. Although there is clearly also some solidification of power dynamics happening as well.
Thank you, I Just wanted to point It out. Also, several times we saw Roman enjoy slightly abusive dinamics (the cage being a kid, the humiliation by Gerri). I actually think Kendall's hug was a tender moment, in its twisted, Royish way.
Does Shiv actually have more smarts and potential than Tom? I'd think Tom has more corporate experience and work experience. Shiv joined late in the game and her lack of experience was one oft he reasons for Logan not choosing her?
In regards to Shiv and her brothers- Kendall absolutely began to cut her out from jump but Roman did at every chance attempt to include Shiv . Absolutely
I think Tom's betrayal of Shiv had less to do with him truly being loyal to Logan and more to do with their relationship being obliterated. At that point Tom had taken punch after punch from Shiv. He took it because I think he genuinely loved her and she brought him close to power and money. Once his heart had been broken the only motivation left for him was to remain close to power and money and Logan was the optimal choice to acheieve that.
I love your channel, but I cannot agree on your view about Shiv and 'her being a woman'. She is just as callous and narcissistic as her brothers.
This is a feminist channel, they are obviously going to take the feminist angle
This is not the first time they say something like this... It's unfortunate
the point wasn't unfounded, Mattson flat out said he wants to have sex with her to Tom's face. as long as that was part of the equation, her gender is a factor.
@@LuisSierra42 at last someone said it 🤣🤣🤣. I watched a couple of other Succession ending explained. None of them, saw it the way "The take" saw it. All of them viewed Shiv as incapable. Feminist ideals is distorted from reality. There are capable women but Shiv is not one of them
@@fearless6947 It's not about whether or not Shiv is capable, it's about how she's perceived by others based solely on her gender.
I've felt like the writers gave each one of the siblings a moment to show how they would be as leaders, and they all failed because:
a) they're arrogant nepo babies
b) they don't care about the work process of their employees, they just want the results in a very unrealistic way.
c) they don't have perception of what other people think of them.
Roman is the first one who gets it when he says: "We're bullshit". And I just loved it. They're just empty copies of their father.
Nobody "won" on Succession. The kids ended up how they began, always wealthy, never happy. Tom may have won the coveted job title, but the price he has to pay is being a hapless puppet to an eccentric Swedish billionaire. Greg also ended up where he started, just an assistant to Tom.
I thought that Shiv's key line was telling Kendall he would not be a good CEO because he killed someone. And Kendall's reaction, going into immediate denial only proves how right Shiv was. Kendall may never be held legally responsible for the death of the waiter, but it did end up being his ultimate downfall by robbing him of the position he has felt entitled to since he was seven.
All in all, I would rate Succession's ending somewhat like "the Wire". Basically, there were some superficial changes, but still everything pretty much stayed the same, just with new people in the same old roles.
And I think it is just fine and more realistic of an ending for both of these excellent shows.
I Knew Shiv was going to betray Kendall when she spat in the 'King Shake'. Not the sort of thing ppl do if they have truly buried the hatchet as was implied by their joint acceptance of the plan to obstruct the take over.
Didn't spot that , but there are a few subtle clues. When she was joking with roman about killing him at the waterside , that wasn't a joke in her head, she was planning the betrayal and that effectively killed kendall .
@@andrewashmore8000 I completely agree. I still screamed the B word when she refused the vote. lol
I mean, they are siblings. If one of my sisters did that I would be absolutely disgusted but I wouldn't be very surprised by that. It was a pretty normal sibling shithead behavior
It’s odd that everyone seems to have forgotten that the three kids own Pierce and that’s separate from the ATN deal. I’m curious on where that goes.
I think it's pretty clear that Logan was also physically abusive to the boys and was in denial. Ex. After hitting Roman, his denial in the car, the fact that the children remember Logan hitting Roman and lots of other little details.
Good explanation but I noticed that you were maybe a little bit biased towards Shiv, She is the most narcissistic person in the show
Logan won. Like always. His deal went through, his heir was Mattson and he knew it when they met.
When Mattson called Greg Judas i felt so horrible but at the same time it was hilarious af.
I think the discourse is too forgiving of Tom and Shiv. Trying to give either an overly positive spin on them as characters and their actions or how intelligent they are. They are just as dumb and corrupt as Roman and Kendall. That's the point of this show being a tragedy.
All of these characters pine for something that they desperately want but they are not intellectually or morally deserving. Tom is a pain sponge that will have zero power and is willing to suffer through abuse despite the toll it takes on him to be and stay rich. Shiv has continually gone against her principles, pressured a woman to hush about the sexual harassment she experienced, and agreed to work with a problematic nazi president despite being staunchly against him moments prior.
Tom is the only one that actually works.
@@Josh-the-man I guess? That does not hold him in higher regard when compared to the siblings. It's not as if because Tom works a little bit more than the other siblings he is somehow more deserving of success and power.
@@ApolloPlanetary actually he is lol. It is made clear he is actually competent. He deserves it way more than Roman and Shiv, Ken is a bit better than those two but Tom is clearly more deserving. He also knows when to shut his mouth, something the Roys cannot.
@@Josh-the-man He's not deserving and didn't even win. He was a suck up to Logan who used him and to Mattson who literally said that he wanted to f*ck Tom's wife and offered him a position that holds ZERO power or chance at succession
I’m sorry, but I have to chime in here. When discussing shiv, the narrator says, “…the people of this world weren’t going to let a female be on top.” Uh, this is ridiculous. You do know that Rhea Jarrell is a woman and was CEO of Pierce, right? To say that women can’t be CEOs in this world fits your narrative, but it rings hollow. The narrator also says that she basically doesn’t get the job because she’s a woman, and the narrator also says that Tom stole the job from her. She wasn’t going to get the job, regardless of who was getting it (Tom). Also, she didn’t get the job because, in addition to Lukas’ attraction to her, she BLEW IT. She was super pushy and like Rhea said, Shiv thinks she’s smarter than she is. SHiv was pushy just like she was at the Pierce dinner when she announced that she was going to be Logan’s chosen one for CEO. It’s not all about how the poor little rich girl is so weak because she’s a woman. Ugh.
I had no clue how much Carolina disliked Hugo. I’ll have to rewatch and look for those clues. Completely went over my head.
there is nothing to like but yeah...the clues are necessary
me too, I just remembered she was gloating when Logan caught him laughing at a test video of Kerry
Hugo left the company open to insider trading allegations - remember when he told his daughter about the potential sale before it was publicly announced? - and Karolina is smart enough to know and remember it
If Ken's deal went through, Hugo was vying to cut out Karolina. Ken told him it would happen and that Hugo would get a larger part in the company.
@@MeganWadden Agreed! Tom knew that Hugo and Kendall were aligned. It was the reason that he asked for Karolina as soon as he arrived on the floor, after being named CEO, with his entourage. In addition, I am now convinced that Shiv was speaking with someone while she was being driven to the board meeting. I think that someone was Tom, as she had the phone in her hand when she got out of the car. Karolina met her when she arrived and the conversation between the two was strange. Karolina was next to Shiv when Roman signed the sale papers and saw to it that Shiv was in the car when Tom came down stairs to leave the bldg.
"shiv is a powerful woman" what a nonsense
This is just a really really bad take and does not take into account how layered this show is. For example, Shiv lost because (just like her brothers) she never changed. She constantly bullied and manipulated people expecting loyalty. You can see it in the first three episodes of the tv show. Logan specifically told her (s2 e2 I believe) that because she's a woman it's a minus - not because that's what he believes but because it's how the world works. The fact she did not understand that is the foundational issue with Shiv. She doesn't know how to properly estimate herself or others.
None of the Roy siblings "lost" in a global sense because each of them cashed out with over 2 billion dollars
I really think Kendall could have gotten a win. Perhaps telling Shiv how much power she had in that moment. Instead of acknowledging it he tries to take it away from her.
nah. Shiv literally nuked the entire empire.. condemning herself to her worst possible outcome for no other reason than to just keep her brother(s) from having it
What's funny is that all that happens business-wise this season is that the deal becomes worth far more money, and Tom got the CEO position. But the kids are united at the start of the season, and by the end, they're all miserable and heartbroken again.
Shiv didn't explicitly lose because she's woman - she lost because she was gullible and easy to lead along. You dangle one thing in front of her and its all she sees.
The broader point about how women are treated in this world are fair but please do better than your typical American point of view that everything is just sexism/racism/prejudice, please and thanks.
This is a 26 min video. And the number of times you mentioned that Shiv is more competent than the others, just exposes ur bias
I disagree on take on Mattson and Shiv- he never wanted to make Shiv a CEO- it wasn't because of the article. He never said that he wanted her a CEO. It was Shiv saying that and Mattson just didn't deny it, because he could use Shivs insider knowledge. He played her. Just like her father did and she didn't see it, because she was given everything as a kid.
What is more, Mattson was shown pretty early to loathe nepotism and Shiv doesn't have the experience or qualifications to become a CEO, making her a bad fit. Tom has the experience across multiple domain of the company, is hands on and doesn't have ego.
The talk of sexual nature of Shiv to Tom was made to test him- how much can he take and if he will lay low or react aggressively. Tom passed the test as he didn't allow it to get to him.
And Shiv didn't loose because she was a women. The world in Succession is really misogynistic but she made many mistakes. She never was good at judging the situation and people. In S2 she pushed away Frank who was eager to teach her the inner working of company and humiliated Karl- treating them as worse than her. Both of them are seniors on the board with voting power so mistreating them is a sign of utter lack of understanding of the company.
She also loved to humiliate Tom and never saw him as a threat. She thought that Mattson liked her, when in reality he needed an internal point of view of the company and he was using her all along. She thought that her dad would give her a company without putting in the necessary work. All of these are the mistakes not due to her gender but due to her privileged and pampered upgringing.
ALSO Shiv didn't secure anything for their children. Roys power was due to stock ownership and sits on the board. Shiv had both but got rid of them. Tom is just an employee who can get fired at any time and probably will be a CEO for max 5-6 years. And with that their connection to Waystar is gone.
Such a fan of this channel! This analysis is spot on!
Initially, many people including me thought Succession was just another "you have to be jerks to success" excuse. But i eventually realized at its core it's about cycle of abuse, and i actually feel sad for the Roy children. I'm angry at them but they're also sad people.
Interesting that the one who gets it is aptly nicknamed, Rome. With callbacks to Nero (Tom) it shows that the Logan empire has finally crumbled. Remember Nero is the last of the first Roman dynasty.
“Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
What they really wanted was to be loved and accepted by their father. I think this was a very happy ending for everyone. They get to walk away with a lot of money and find out who they are outside of the family-business for the first time in their lives. Lukas gets to take over the sinkiang ship and maybe save it, which he probably was the most capable person of doing, and it was Logans wish anyway. Kendall, Roman and Shiv are finally free.
Interesting points but personally I don’t think Lukas is capable of saving RoyCo/ATN. He bought an albatross. Like Twitter, he’s just going to run it into the ground.
And I don't think any of the sibs actually *wanted* to be free, with the possible exception of Connor. They have no idea what to do with freedom.
I normally agree with the Take, but I disagree with the view on Shiv. Feels biased. From day one, she’s been shown to be just as bad as her brothers. When Logan offers the top spot for her, he tells her there has to be a process and presents her with roles in the company to give her experience and “in a few years, be ready”. She got angry and instead started telling people the position was hers publicly in season 2 when they tried to acquire that news outlet from the Pierces. That situation changes his mind about her. As Rhea said about her, “she thinks she’s smarter than she really is”. Just like Kendall thinks he’s cooler than he actually is. Time and again the show has shown that she’s not the person not because she’s a woman, hell Logan had set up Rhea to be the CEO until she backed out, but because she’s entitled just like her siblings. She didn’t play the game better, she played it just as bad as them. Remember, because of her, Mattson acquired everything, when they could’ve killed him from day one had the siblings just worked together. Almost every business decision she would make would start strong, but end up biting them back long term, just like her brothers.
She voted against Ken, because she couldn’t stand the idea of Kendall taking the job and ‘winning’, it’s why she stuttered through random reasons why it can’t be him. I’d argue that she wasn’t thinking about Tom or the baby in that moment. If she had, she would’ve just voted for Ken, then planned a way to get him out like she had in the past. The only honest thing she said in that scene was “I can’t stomach you.” She’d rather everyone lose than to see her brother win. No sibling was right or morally good, they were all right, just for the wrong and worst reasons: hence, they were all wrong, and not “serious people.”
thanks for this, especially showing the mirrored dynamics from earlier seasons.
I totally missed a lot of that
Bravo!
1 nitpick- totally with you on the sexism that shiv’s arc exposed, but i don’t think she objectively played it better than ken. Especially since she did the same celebrating-too-early gloating that ken is known for
The Take's Succession essays are normally pretty good, but this one is a little sloppy. A lot because it's got such tunnel vision about Shiv.
The genius of the show is that Shiv is the most like her father and yet Shiv is demonized for behaving like him while Logan is praised and revered as a king.
This take gives waay too much credit to shiv. She's so blatantly conniving and shortsighted shell get taken for a ride like an elliptical regardless of gender.
She's more entitled than her brothers that worked for the company and at least attended half a day of management training.
Shiv after Bitey :
" Tom Wambsgans FINALLY MADE ME FEEL SOMETHING !".
Tom in the last phone call : "YOU'VE FALLEN IN LOVE FINALLY !".
Tom became more attractive to Shiv after he betrayed her for " keeping him out" .She didn't believe him capable of this independance from her.
Note that they kept their wedding rings all the season 4. Except Tom who doesn't have it at the start of e1 but has it at the end of it.
In their last phone call Tom agrees to an amicable divorce (Czecoslovakia->Velvet Divorce). Shiv will never follow up.
Tom replies he doesn't know , to Shiv's "real relationship" request because he doesn't want to have her as a superior and has understood that he should no longer "servile" with her.
Ask yourself the question of knowing why, when they both know that it's thanks to her vote that Tom becomes CEO, Shiv "congatulates" him and Tom answers her with a false modesty "Oh no no".
Tom is gloating inside, because he has won everything he wanted from the beginning : Shiv + CEO + Money + Child.
Ennd of the SCRIPT BOOK for Shiv and Tom in the car :
An accomodation, an equilibrium, that could last with a certain stabilty, proxy wars and detentes for many years to come...nothing needy from either side.
A queen and a prince.
Two bombs transported with great care.
I think you're disregarding the fact that all first three seasons Shiv disregard her relationship with Tom or borderline mistreated him at times. I mean, she told him about the open relationship on their wedding night and didn't at least kept to herself that he was a good option for a fall guy un season two finale. The fact that him telling her that he's wondering about breaking up was an important plot point underlines the fact that there were real feelings and dynamics involved and that things we're changing. And also, during all season 3 she never once listened to his concerns about going to prison, the closest thing she did was telling him, in essence, "stop worrying, it will be fine" without making any effort to convince him. In season 3 finale he saw the 3 snob kids try to take over an international operation and when he asked his WIFE where he'd fit in she mumbled "high up, I don't know!". She never worried about him, and after 3 seasons of trying to form an equitative alliance he finally wondered why should he worry about her.
Tom is not a nice guy, him "winning" is not a happy ending. They were all despicable in their on way all along, while remaining human. But to imply that "well actuallly, he only made it seem that he had feelings for Shiv but ALL ALONG he was ONLY interested in her father and power" is just not right and is missing quite a lot of additional depth in the character and the story ("missing the point" in a way). And also, humans don't work that way, we are always feeling
In the end it wasn't "Who is going to win?" it was "Will Kendall win or not?"
There were two men who were enemies, they made a lot of trouble in the kingdom. One day the king asked the first, to ask for any wish, and he will have it, but his enemy would have it double. The man then said "rip one eye off of me, so my enemy would be blind".
I think that's Shiv, she became so envious of Kendall that she got the worst deal for her in order to screw up her brother.
best comment
I don't think she lost because he didn't like women, she lost because she wanted to control it too much to be a puppet. That's why he went looking for a replacement that would be a puppet.
Truly one the greatest show this is cinema
Everything is just perfect like a tragic poem .
Perfect justifiable ending You get what you do cycle of "Karma "
No vulgar scenes , no explicit nudity , no R Rated scenes this show proves that how to make a drama series
Great show great respect to the entire succession team
Better the game of thrones in all angles 👍👍🙌🙌🙌🎉💫🎉
What an mating show 👌🏻 pleaser do a video on Kendal , his character sort of represents a tragic character arc because even if he wins he loses and if he loses well e has lost , either way it ends in tragedy for him , thanks a lot for the video 🙏🏻
Shiv is mot as smart as she thinks she is
One of the channel's best videos in a very long Time! I'm especially glad Shiv got some recognition and that her couple with Tom got analyzed so well ! Roman's "all nothing" reminded me of classic Shakespearean jester stock character "life's a stage" monologue. Also, congrats on foreshadowing in your previous breakdown that nobody would win. I honestly believed Logan never meant for his children to actually succeed (him). And i find it extremely interesting, in a Nepo-baby Era, that maybe, in the end, a Real succession IS actually about not succeeding but about refusing it and breaking free from perpetuating the cycle. It's self negating and an extremely compelling and daring thought to have.
Shiv thinks she's being overlooked for sexism. That's just 10% of it, the 90% is that she isn't qualified for the position, none of them are.
They think they deserve the job more than Tom, despite the fact Tom has put in years of work at the company rising through the ranks.
They aren't serious people they're spoilt children with delusions of grandeur and entitlement, but they have never had to work for anything in their lives.
Shiv is competent with politics, she should've stayed in her original career. She manages political campaigns well, that's all she was doing for Mattson too which is why she wins. She doesn't have the skills or experience for CEO. Kendall and Roman have a competent skillset too and have some talent, but again they aren't at the level to run the company.
Well Tom doesn’t deserve it either to be fair. He is just as clueless and unqualified as them but he was willing to be a lapdog so he got the role. While there is a lot of sexism in Succession and the broader business world, I actually think Logan would have chosen Shiv if he thought she had any ability to do the job, which she didn’t. Shiv just finds it easier to blame sexism 100% than to take any accountability.
@@thepragmaticspiritualist7074 i see Tom as far more qualified & competent than the siblings. Mainly because he knows his place. The kids think they can run the company and be Logan when they can't. Tom knows he's not Logan but he is able to be Mattson's pain sponge.
Tom's willing to pay his dues and work his way up, he has patience and work ethic. The siblings were born at the finish line and have been given everything and earned nothing their whole lives.
Tom has accepted a very difficult and hard job as pain sponge. He's willing to endure stuff the kids wouldn't do. He's genuinely earning the opportunities he gets. He knows a decent amount of sycophancy and nepotism is needed to get to the top.
Tom was willing to go to prison to advance his career. He was too busy working to go to Logan's funeral. He barely slept in season 4 because he takes work seriously and makes sacrifices for it. He also sees the value in Gregg and Gerri and can see dead wood like Karl, Frank and Hugo a mile off.
I think Logan's 1st choice was Ken but he acted like a child. I think Shiv was his 2nd choice but she proved a failure too. Roman was the last chance and the final straw so he decides to sell up. But I think he gave them each a fair crack at essentially interviewing for the job over the course of the first 3 seasons before selling.
@@ExplainedThroughRap you don’t actually need to be competent or smart to be a pain sponge so Tom is perfect. Contrary to popular opinion, Tom hasn’t put in tons of work. He’s a nepo spouse and doesn’t do a lick of work.
@@thepragmaticspiritualist7074 What? Tom does work, throughout the series, especially shown in Season 4. Can't say the same for either of the 3 siblings.. well Kendall had also done SOME work early on, but his hubris and immaturity got in his way.
@illlDCllli he has had a job which males him slightly different but he hasn't really worked, especially after marrying Shiv.
Thank you for this nuanced and accurate portrayal of the succession finale. So many other Video Essayists fail to take into account these characters from the very beginning of their arcs.
This is so bs. So many women lie to themselves about this
Your assessment of Shiv is generous.
The abrupt segue to Requiem For a Dream completely threw me for a moment.
rhea said it best: shiv is smart, but not as smart as she thinks she is.
Exactly 💯
Smart people never say "I am smarter than them". They just know what they know and what they don't".
Your attempt to rehabilitate Shiv requires that you ignore the basic truth of this series: these people are all deeply flawed human beings. Shiv is not a feminist hero. She has been sucked into the cycle of betrayal. I even suspect her unusual name - Shiv - means to alert us that it the end, she will be the one to stick in the shiv to betray those who have betrayed her.
Roman has always been my fave; I'm glad he's finally free.
I believe Shiv is second to the most miserable outcome to Kendall. The whole point of her development was not only to make her like her mother, but to want to despise men while trying to become one while begging for scraps. She decided to try to be game to going in the boys-club by pretending to be one, hence she decided to intimidate a rape victim at her fathers behest for a position she would never get because she has no work experience. Even told time and time again, men and women alike she never worked a day in her life for the company. She sold out whatever quasi-liberal beliefs she had with quitting Gillis and her true love, to delusionally tell herself that she was going hardball to be CEO when she should have looked at the truth her dad lied so Gillis wouldnt destroy him as president. All of her frustrations she took out on Tom, viewing him as his puppet as wll peon from upbringing, than as a loving husband who brought this unknown affection from the outside. She dismantled her womanhood and pretended to be light on her father when it came to the questioning mysoginistic actions in his company. Even dressing more neutral and dark tones than her charasmatic colorful silk blouses. The question is if Shiv is soley responsible for designing her own Hell or was it Logan?
Shiv suffered the worst outcome and it's not even close.
and the sick and twisted poetry of it all is SHE CHOSE that outcome for herself...
because she would rather live out her worse life than let her own brother be king.
@penoyer79 That's what I'm saying she designed her own Hell. However, she has somewhat of a leverage over Tom with the baby. She will be in her own Hell of being her mother, Caroline, but still has the child as a connection.
I think Kendall has the worst outcome. He was shaped to be his fathers prodnogy since age seven. He shaped his life for his father, including education, working extensively, missing life moments, and trying to numb it with drugs. Whats sad is his ideas were great in the beginning, and his father thought they were dumb based on his projected masculinity. Even worse, he threw any moments with his family at his father's behest, which caused his divorce and a custody battle. When Roman tells him at last moment that Logan never regarded his kids as actual Roy's he realizes too late that he invested his whole life chasing his father's shadow.
@@JimmyJojoshabadoo the sad thing is they probably could have made it work if they could just work together. the 3 of them in charge with Kindall leading the way could have worked. it was working. but their savage competitiveness with each other - their drive to tear each other down and win at all cost - was so ingrained in them from their father that it was doomed to fail
@penoyer79 Sure, maybe. The thing is, Kendall doesn't have to be a beast like his father, but he lacks toughness. He is smart, though, with seeing the future of information. Roman is a good negotiator and really hits with deals, but he lacks dignity and respect for himself and others. Shiv has expertise in legal and management in PR, so she would have helped being a shield for Roystar, but in the end, all three thought they could make do without the other. They are truly a house divided, thanks to Logan. If anything, it would be more sensible if an old guard like Gerri was CEO and the Roy kids agreed to be board members.