I like your videos, But this technique is also called the daisy chain of death for a reason, and I’m not sure this video really emphasizes how dangerous the technique is if not done properly. Even when done correctly it’s risky, and guides will only do it on, like you said, short, basically down climbable pitches. Sure, it’s worth knowing (and having practiced in advance) in case of emergency, but most recreational climbers should never plan to use this. If you can’t descend because you’re out of webbing, but you’re not 110% on the daisy of death, just run the rope around the tree or boulder and rappel on both ends. Come prepared, but if things go wrong, burn the bark, damage your sheath, leave material where you’re not supposed to. Neither is worth your life.
110% If it's necessary that I leave a runner and get a ticket or die abseiling, I'll take a day in Court rather than use the daisy chain method. There's no guarantee that it won't cinch down the rope and cause it to be irretrievable; causing one to be stranded or forced to self belay up and fix the error above. No thanks.
Good point, except in situations where, for example, you're inadequately protected from weather, and so are cold; or perhaps are trying to descend fast due to bad weather forecast? Tiredness and slowness can themselves kill, as we all know. When, for these or some other reasons, time and strength conservation becomes a safety factor, then this daisy chain method begins to gain the safety _advantage_ of requiring less time and strength expenditure for retrieval of the rope after each pitch. (Care required to make sure the bite doesn't catch on a second obstacle though: in which case the friction obstructing retrieval of the rope may be impossible to overcome.)
Fiddlestick/Smooth Operator/etc is so much better than this. I routinely ghost and feel completely safe on those systems. We've even tried to pull out the stick while the rappeller's weight is on the rope. No dice. Keep a generous 8-on-a-bight tied at the end of your pull cord, so you can girth hitch the stick on quickly. Throw two bags and go.
Glen just showed another technique. It'll come handy if you're comfortable using it. I'll probably use a webbing as an anchor and leave it behind after a rappell bc I don't feel safe using the daisy chain of death. My buddy and I were exploring a route to the saddle below Norman Clyde peak last year and we came to a sharp Cliff just on the side of the saddle. Then we saw a dyneema daisy chain anchor (which I also have) there apparently left by people taking the same route. We didn't have our rock climbing gear, so we backtracked to get down safely.
What is the advantage of using this over just wrapping the rope around the fixed object and doing a double stranded rap? Seems like you could use that in any place you can use this, and you don't have the risks associated with only having control of one strand
I think the advantage is that you don't have issues with friction preventing you from recovering your rope, which is often the case if you wrap it around a tree or boulder.
I had a crazy idea while watching the video (Awesome and thank you). My background originated in firefighting and for decades we used Manila rope for rescue, rappelling, lashing pretty much it’s all we had. Then we went to mil spec nylon and then to modern engineered rope. So here’s the crazy idea. In the vein of leaving no trace…… a short section of natural fiber used as an anchor would, after some time, rot away. Natural fiber when new is plenty strong (1/2 inch has 2385 lbs breaking strength). Ready to take the heat.
@@hnewcomb1695 One of the reasons for the "leave no trace" ethic, is to provide a pristine environment for the next person to enjoy. The next person will likely be along before the fibers rot away.
I am a tree climber (not rock), a standard technique in this game is to rappel from the top of trees by using a retrievable anchor called a friction saver / cambium saver. Basically a heavy strop with a rappel ring at either end, but one ring is smaller than the other. Once down you attach a correctly-sized plastic ball to your rope with a prusik hitch, or just tie a knot (the ‘large ring’ side), pull this up, it passes through the large ring but catches on the small, releasing the strop. You could make a custom one for boulders. I suppose there is a chance that it could get snagged, but rather that than trust your life to the daisychain. This is what i’m on about: th-cam.com/video/sKEfLm066-4/w-d-xo.html Great videos👍
Over the last year I've got into climbing due to moving to an area with many bolted sport routes. It was nice to see this technique cause I have wondered how people lower without fixed anchors or leaving behind gear. But the comments and your responses really emphasized how high risk this method is which is also a good thing to know. Obviously the more methods you have at your disposal the less chance you will have of being up the creek without a paddle but it does sound like a last resort method considering how easy the system could fail. Also I'm curious as to why you don't make the last two or 3 links on the long side instead of just the final one? Wouldn't that give more redundancy, or would it cause more issues?
While I agree with you that having "a lot of tools" at your disposal, this tool in particular is so dangerous, that I fear with too many tools it gets herder and herder to keep all of them sharp or in working order. Your Macrame and the entire process must be reeaaally sharp, if we stick to that metaphor.
Amazing video! Can we attach instead a paracord on the recovery rather than risk getting confused with the identical rope somewhere in the middle of rappel? Appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.
Great question @juanniyebe3557. You can certainly add a different cord for the pull strand if desired. I wouldn't choose paracord because it stretches quite a lot and would be very hard to pull to get the system to release, but you could choose a 6mm cord made from dyneema, aramid, or polyester if desired. However, adding another cord probably wouldn't increase your security/reduce confusion. The reason being if you made a mistake and attached the smaller pull-cord to the rappel strand, and left the pull end as the fat diameter rope, you would ensure that you set yourself up on rappel on the wrong end. To check this system, just pull on each end of the rope coming out from the hitch. One end will move and shorten the bite coming out the side of the hitch, and the other will not. Make double-sure to set your rappel device up on the side that doesn't move. If you want to add a thin cord to the other side at that point, you certainly could, but just realize that the mistake would have already been made at that point.
this looks more dangerous than a simple double strand rappel with no benefit in terms of retrival and snagging.... in fact the bight coming off looks more likely to snag.... and you get shorter ropes available when lowering because the daisying-up
I'm not saying a ghosting rappel like the Macrame should be used here, but there is a significant time safe in not having to pull the entire rope through (essentially twice) you also see he shortened the rope; with a double strand rappel he most likely would have had to undo that, which adds to the time it takes. If this timesafe is worth it, is obviously up for debate. The answer to that should be no for most people. But having it in the bag where you really need to get down quickly, could be a deciding factor. The book DOWN puts it nicely: "I view it like taking a lion for a walk"
This method of rappelling is so incredibly dangerous! My dad was SF in the Marine Corps and taught me about this. They teach them this technique because they can rappel and retrieve their rope “leaving no trace”. You retrieve your rope and no one is the wiser. But…. He also emphasized that IF done incorrectly, the enemy will in fact find your insertion point because they’ll also discover your body. Let that sink in.
Im not sure I understand the advantage of using this technique. If the end of the rope you have to pull to undo the knot has to be as long as the end of the rope you're repelling on then why wouldn't you just pass the rope around the rock then repel on both ends of rope then pull the rope from around the rock when at the bottom? Seems unnecessarily dangerous unless there's a specific situation to use this than I'm missing. Is it just speed? Not having to uncoil all of the rope maybe?
What is the benefit of this technique as opposed to just ging down two strands of the rope? Like a standard rappel, but not through a ring, but around a big rock? Becuase you need the 'pull' rope to be as long as your rappel anyway.
That's a good question @lennmusicman. This technique is used when the object you are rappelling from has considerable friction that may hinder your ability to retrieve your rope, or when there is a constriction in or near the rappel anchor that might trap a rope when you pull it. In the example shown, a large boulder with a rough, uneven surface is used as a rap anchor. In this situation when you reach the bottom of the cliff it is often exceedingly difficult or impossible to pull your rope back around the boulder and down to you. Additionally, because you must pull half the length of your rope around the boulder (instead of only a few feet of a bite as with the technique shown) it greatly increases the chance that your rope becomes stuck in the constriction between the boulder and the surface it is resting on or between the boulder and an adjacent piece of terrain. In some cases, such as when you need the rope for another rappel and the cliff you have rapped is not featured enough for you to climb back up, getting your rope stuck above you can be very serious. Another time this technique is commonly used is when moving through complex alpine terrain, where there might be many short rappels along a descent and time is of greater importance due to the amount of terrain that must be covered. In these situations the Macrame/equivocation hitch provides a fast method to set-up a rappel without the need for either climber to untie from the rope or thread from the end. In situations where there is a clean rappel surface, such as a smooth barked tree, constrictions are not present, and time is not of great importance, then threading the rope around the object or using this technique will both work. It is good to be mindful of the ethics of the climbing area, since when using a standard rappel method around a bare tree the retrieval of the rope can damage the tree over time (30 or 35 meters of nylon dragging). Not much of an issue for one or two rappels, but if it is done frequently by many parties it might have a more significant impact.
Wouldnt it be safer to tie an alpine butterfly at half the length of rope and put one end of the rope through the AB then use the loop created as an anchor on the rock and then rappel down both lines? I suppose the AB has the potential to snag on something when retrieving i guess.. Just thoughts from an experienced tree climber but an inexperienced mountaineer... Thanks for the lesson, always great to learn new techniques..
Great question. If you are rappelling off of a smooth object- such as a tree with smooth bark, then the technique outlined here isn't necessary. You can just set the rappel up as normal around the object and rappel both strands. But in many rock and alpine environments it would not be possible to pull your rope if you loop the rope over the object, because there is too much friction (generally you sling the bottom portion of boulders for example, which means that the rope becomes wedged at the base). The technique outlined here allows you to release the rope easily even if the rope is around a large course rock, and generally does not become wedged in the same way a standard rappel set-up would be. This technique is also much faster that threading half the rope around an object, since you only need to pass a bite around.
I once did a short rappel by just passing the rope around a tree, thinking it would be easy to pull it from the ground... No chance... I tried everything and couldn't pull the rope at all.. I had to walk back up to recover the rope! Lesson leaned
Hi Me and my friend did this today. Wrapped the rope around a big tree with 5 meters to the edge of the cliff. We abseiled 30 meters down. When we came down we were not able to pull the rope down because the string that is supposed to be pulled through the loop could not pass through .it was too tight. We wonder if it made a difference that the rope went over an edge? Would be nice to experiment with.
Hi there @jillsindholt9904! Thanks so much for including your experience here, as it highlights some considerations for improvised rappels. In my experience the Macrame takes around 80lbs of force pulling on the release strand to pop-out the long stopper loop, and maybe 40 to 50lbs for each additional loop (alternating force back-and-forth between the two strands). The longer the rappel you do on the Macrame, the more the stretch of the rope will reduce your ability to transmit the force of your pull on the release strand to the anchor (you will need to take the stretch out of the rope). To ensure that the pulling force you apply to the end of the release strand reaches the stopper loop at the rappel tree, it's best to set-up a rappel that reduces the amount of terrain (such as edges, slabs, blocks, etc) that the rope runs over, or when this is not possible, to keep the rope as straight as possible as it runs over this terrain. For example if the best rappel anchor is set back from a lip you will rappel over, it's best to build a high anchor provided the choice of anchor will accommodate this in its shape and strength, and the rope cannot slide down the anchor to a new position. A good example would be a tree with a 12in diameter trunk at head-height, that has a 4in diameter limb coming off the trunk at head-height. In this scenario you can create the Macrame on the trunk above the branch, which will anchor the hitch at head-height (held in its high position by the branch) and make the rope travel in a straighter line from the tree over the cliff edge. Not only does having a high anchor make it easier to pull your rope, but it also reduces the likelihood of dragging portions of your rope across low angle terrain between the set-back anchor and the cliff where loose rock may rest, thus reducing the likelihood of causing rockfall. If no such anchor exists, and it is not possible to use an anchor very near the edge of the cliff, then the Macrame might not be the best choice. Incidentally these considerations also hold true for other rappel systems, including use of the Beal Escaper which can be a difficult system to release. Thanks again for watching and offering your experience for us all to learn from!
how about cow hitch around the natural anchor and also leaving no running end on other side of the rope and safety knot at the end, rappel down through both the ropes. Does that makes any sense?
Hey @nineinchnail3382! Thanks for the question. Would you be able to explain the system you mentioned in a bit more detail? Happy to give my thoughts. Thanks for watching!
The reason a carabiner block doesn't work in this situation is because for a carabiner block to work the rappel point must be a ring or quick-link which the carabiner won't fit through. In this case there is no rappel point such as this. Thanks for the question!
There is a video showing that if you manage to undo the non loaded strand while rappelling, the entire thing will come undine. It won't just snag on the next knot and stay safe. Having 6 hitches does nothing for your safety when you pull the loose side.
Why not simply rappel on double rope and pull down on one side? That's more safe and you don't have to try pull down a big sling that, most likely, will attach to the next bold, rock or tree.
@@skillsforclimbing thanks for the answer, however, as of my climbing experiecne I see a higher risk of the sling getting attached to an obstacle than rope friction. I had several cases where the rope got attached even by the knot of two half ropes. For winter/ice climbing I agree that the rope should come down this way due to less obstacles above snow/ice - if an abalakov is not an option. Thanks - Flo
I want to point out that the 7 loops are absolutely NOT considered redundant. Not at all. When you start practicing this technique, you (hopefully...) quickly realize that your life essentially hangs on the very last loop. As soon as this last loop is released, the "redundant loops" are so tiny and almost pulled out already themselves, that they most likely won't hold your weight for very long. Especially when you give them a tug. I would still tie 5 to 7 loops to identfiy flaws in your pattern and keeping the entire thing "nice and tidy" But please do not call that redundancy
I saw a video with a technique that seems much safer and easier to use here. It's a canyoneering technique, but it seems like it would work here as well. th-cam.com/video/pekk_86pHvY/w-d-xo.html you have to turn the captions on.
Watching this in disbelieve "Why the hell would you do that! No advantages! You can die stupidly!" until 5:58, where it is finally explained. Not worth it for me.
Once again a topic I have seen before but you have covered it in a way that adds clarity! Thanks! Have you seen and tested the failure mode of this knot that is posted here? Curious to hear your thoughts. th-cam.com/video/zdZMau4hRCU/w-d-xo.html
@@skillsforclimbing Yep - It also sounds like the quality of the rope sheath has something to do with the failure mode after talking with some guides who teach Rescue courses out here in Moab. When the rope sheath is new and more slippery the bights of rope have a higher tendency to want to squeeze out of the system rather than pinch down and become secure.
I always wonder why not use a friction saver like arborist do. The really have nailed how to get down and leave no gear as well as looking into canyoning rappel systems. Climbers seem to have the worst rappel systems no cap.
Thanks for your thought @pants13! The primary reasons climbers often use different systems than arborists is because of the weight/bulk of the tools that arborists use and the time component of using them. The Macrame is often employed by the canyoning community, and has been for many years. Although the Macrame might seem scary if you haven't used it before or aren't familiar with its use, it is a surprisingly secure system, and has been used for many years by climbers and guides around the world. Although the Macrame is being used for short rappels in the video, I have used it for long steep rappels, as have many of my colleagues, and it can be a serious time saver and add security in situations where you might have relatively little of either time or security. Like all climbing systems, including those that arborists use, it is important to understand how to set it up correctly, and the context of when it makes sense. Thanks so much for watching! I hope this adds a bit of context, as I think others have had similar questions.
What a weird video. If the boulder is solid enough for an anchor, it's solid enough to loop the rope round and rappel on both strands like a normal person.
One might prefer not to have to endure the hassle and physical exertion required to overcome a normal person's normal amount of friction during rope retrieval after the descent.
Clearest and best explanation and demonstration of the equivocation hitch. Thanks as always!
Thanks so much for the supportive comment!
I like your videos, But this technique is also called the daisy chain of death for a reason, and I’m not sure this video really emphasizes how dangerous the technique is if not done properly. Even when done correctly it’s risky, and guides will only do it on, like you said, short, basically down climbable pitches. Sure, it’s worth knowing (and having practiced in advance) in case of emergency, but most recreational climbers should never plan to use this. If you can’t descend because you’re out of webbing, but you’re not 110% on the daisy of death, just run the rope around the tree or boulder and rappel on both ends. Come prepared, but if things go wrong, burn the bark, damage your sheath, leave material where you’re not supposed to. Neither is worth your life.
Thanks John G for your comment!!
I agree
110%
If it's necessary that I leave a runner and get a ticket or die abseiling, I'll take a day in Court rather than use the daisy chain method.
There's no guarantee that it won't cinch down the rope and cause it to be irretrievable; causing one to be stranded or forced to self belay up and fix the error above.
No thanks.
Good point, except in situations where, for example, you're inadequately protected from weather, and so are cold; or perhaps are trying to descend fast due to bad weather forecast? Tiredness and slowness can themselves kill, as we all know. When, for these or some other reasons, time and strength conservation becomes a safety factor, then this daisy chain method begins to gain the safety _advantage_ of requiring less time and strength expenditure for retrieval of the rope after each pitch. (Care required to make sure the bite doesn't catch on a second obstacle though: in which case the friction obstructing retrieval of the rope may be impossible to overcome.)
Fiddlestick/Smooth Operator/etc is so much better than this. I routinely ghost and feel completely safe on those systems. We've even tried to pull out the stick while the rappeller's weight is on the rope. No dice. Keep a generous 8-on-a-bight tied at the end of your pull cord, so you can girth hitch the stick on quickly. Throw two bags and go.
Brilliant! I can definitely see this coming in handy.
Your channel is severely underrated. Keep up the awesome content!
Glen just showed another technique. It'll come handy if you're comfortable using it.
I'll probably use a webbing as an anchor and leave it behind after a rappell bc I don't feel safe using the daisy chain of death.
My buddy and I were exploring a route to the saddle below Norman Clyde peak last year and we came to a sharp Cliff just on the side of the saddle. Then we saw a dyneema daisy chain anchor (which I also have) there apparently left by people taking the same route.
We didn't have our rock climbing gear, so we backtracked to get down safely.
Great technique for abseiling when you’re out of tubular nylon, out of cordlette, and out of other options for anchors.
Great video. Well explained and something worth knowing
Thanks much @johnyoulden7696!
What is the advantage of using this over just wrapping the rope around the fixed object and doing a double stranded rap? Seems like you could use that in any place you can use this, and you don't have the risks associated with only having control of one strand
I think the advantage is that you don't have issues with friction preventing you from recovering your rope, which is often the case if you wrap it around a tree or boulder.
@@durand101 a full wrap could lock up, I’ve used a simple bight.
He speaks to this right at the end of the video.
I had a crazy idea while watching the video (Awesome and thank you). My background originated in firefighting and for decades we used Manila rope for rescue, rappelling, lashing pretty much it’s all we had. Then we went to mil spec nylon and then to modern engineered rope. So here’s the crazy idea. In the vein of leaving no trace…… a short section of natural fiber used as an anchor would, after some time, rot away. Natural fiber when new is plenty strong (1/2 inch has 2385 lbs breaking strength). Ready to take the heat.
@@hnewcomb1695 One of the reasons for the "leave no trace" ethic, is to provide a pristine environment for the next person to enjoy. The next person will likely be along before the fibers rot away.
I am a tree climber (not rock), a standard technique in this game is to rappel from the top of trees by using a retrievable anchor called a friction saver / cambium saver. Basically a heavy strop with a rappel ring at either end, but one ring is smaller than the other. Once down you attach a correctly-sized plastic ball to your rope with a prusik hitch, or just tie a knot (the ‘large ring’ side), pull this up, it passes through the large ring but catches on the small, releasing the strop. You could make a custom one for boulders. I suppose there is a chance that it could get snagged, but rather that than trust your life to the daisychain. This is what i’m on about: th-cam.com/video/sKEfLm066-4/w-d-xo.html Great videos👍
Over the last year I've got into climbing due to moving to an area with many bolted sport routes. It was nice to see this technique cause I have wondered how people lower without fixed anchors or leaving behind gear. But the comments and your responses really emphasized how high risk this method is which is also a good thing to know. Obviously the more methods you have at your disposal the less chance you will have of being up the creek without a paddle but it does sound like a last resort method considering how easy the system could fail. Also I'm curious as to why you don't make the last two or 3 links on the long side instead of just the final one? Wouldn't that give more redundancy, or would it cause more issues?
While I agree with you that having "a lot of tools" at your disposal, this tool in particular is so dangerous, that I fear with too many tools it gets herder and herder to keep all of them sharp or in working order.
Your Macrame and the entire process must be reeaaally sharp, if we stick to that metaphor.
Amazing video!
Can we attach instead a paracord on the recovery rather than risk getting confused with the identical rope somewhere in the middle of rappel? Appreciate your thoughts.
Thank you.
Great question @juanniyebe3557. You can certainly add a different cord for the pull strand if desired. I wouldn't choose paracord because it stretches quite a lot and would be very hard to pull to get the system to release, but you could choose a 6mm cord made from dyneema, aramid, or polyester if desired. However, adding another cord probably wouldn't increase your security/reduce confusion. The reason being if you made a mistake and attached the smaller pull-cord to the rappel strand, and left the pull end as the fat diameter rope, you would ensure that you set yourself up on rappel on the wrong end. To check this system, just pull on each end of the rope coming out from the hitch. One end will move and shorten the bite coming out the side of the hitch, and the other will not. Make double-sure to set your rappel device up on the side that doesn't move. If you want to add a thin cord to the other side at that point, you certainly could, but just realize that the mistake would have already been made at that point.
this looks more dangerous than a simple double strand rappel with no benefit in terms of retrival and snagging.... in fact the bight coming off looks more likely to snag.... and you get shorter ropes available when lowering because the daisying-up
I'm not saying a ghosting rappel like the Macrame should be used here, but there is a significant time safe in not having to pull the entire rope through (essentially twice)
you also see he shortened the rope; with a double strand rappel he most likely would have had to undo that, which adds to the time it takes.
If this timesafe is worth it, is obviously up for debate. The answer to that should be no for most people. But having it in the bag where you really need to get down quickly, could be a deciding factor.
The book DOWN puts it nicely: "I view it like taking a lion for a walk"
Welcome back 😁👍💯💯💯💯
Awesome vid! Thanks for sharing!
That was magic. I'll remember never to use it unless emergency, tho hah
Can it be used also with climbing rope???
This method of rappelling is so incredibly dangerous! My dad was SF in the Marine Corps and taught me about this. They teach them this technique because they can rappel and retrieve their rope “leaving no trace”. You retrieve your rope and no one is the wiser. But…. He also emphasized that IF done incorrectly, the enemy will in fact find your insertion point because they’ll also discover your body. Let that sink in.
that was dope, thnx
This is like the dark art of rappelling. Super high level shit.
Im not sure I understand the advantage of using this technique. If the end of the rope you have to pull to undo the knot has to be as long as the end of the rope you're repelling on then why wouldn't you just pass the rope around the rock then repel on both ends of rope then pull the rope from around the rock when at the bottom? Seems unnecessarily dangerous unless there's a specific situation to use this than I'm missing. Is it just speed? Not having to uncoil all of the rope maybe?
thanks sos much for your info
What is the benefit of this technique as opposed to just ging down two strands of the rope? Like a standard rappel, but not through a ring, but around a big rock? Becuase you need the 'pull' rope to be as long as your rappel anyway.
That's a good question @lennmusicman. This technique is used when the object you are rappelling from has considerable friction that may hinder your ability to retrieve your rope, or when there is a constriction in or near the rappel anchor that might trap a rope when you pull it. In the example shown, a large boulder with a rough, uneven surface is used as a rap anchor. In this situation when you reach the bottom of the cliff it is often exceedingly difficult or impossible to pull your rope back around the boulder and down to you. Additionally, because you must pull half the length of your rope around the boulder (instead of only a few feet of a bite as with the technique shown) it greatly increases the chance that your rope becomes stuck in the constriction between the boulder and the surface it is resting on or between the boulder and an adjacent piece of terrain. In some cases, such as when you need the rope for another rappel and the cliff you have rapped is not featured enough for you to climb back up, getting your rope stuck above you can be very serious. Another time this technique is commonly used is when moving through complex alpine terrain, where there might be many short rappels along a descent and time is of greater importance due to the amount of terrain that must be covered. In these situations the Macrame/equivocation hitch provides a fast method to set-up a rappel without the need for either climber to untie from the rope or thread from the end.
In situations where there is a clean rappel surface, such as a smooth barked tree, constrictions are not present, and time is not of great importance, then threading the rope around the object or using this technique will both work. It is good to be mindful of the ethics of the climbing area, since when using a standard rappel method around a bare tree the retrieval of the rope can damage the tree over time (30 or 35 meters of nylon dragging). Not much of an issue for one or two rappels, but if it is done frequently by many parties it might have a more significant impact.
Wouldnt it be safer to tie an alpine butterfly at half the length of rope and put one end of the rope through the AB then use the loop created as an anchor on the rock and then rappel down both lines? I suppose the AB has the potential to snag on something when retrieving i guess.. Just thoughts from an experienced tree climber but an inexperienced mountaineer... Thanks for the lesson, always great to learn new techniques..
Great question. If you are rappelling off of a smooth object- such as a tree with smooth bark, then the technique outlined here isn't necessary. You can just set the rappel up as normal around the object and rappel both strands. But in many rock and alpine environments it would not be possible to pull your rope if you loop the rope over the object, because there is too much friction (generally you sling the bottom portion of boulders for example, which means that the rope becomes wedged at the base). The technique outlined here allows you to release the rope easily even if the rope is around a large course rock, and generally does not become wedged in the same way a standard rappel set-up would be. This technique is also much faster that threading half the rope around an object, since you only need to pass a bite around.
I once did a short rappel by just passing the rope around a tree, thinking it would be easy to pull it from the ground... No chance... I tried everything and couldn't pull the rope at all.. I had to walk back up to recover the rope! Lesson leaned
Eastern WA or Idaho?
Hi
Me and my friend did this today. Wrapped the rope around a big tree with 5 meters to the edge of the cliff. We abseiled 30 meters down. When we came down we were not able to pull the rope down because the string that is supposed to be pulled through the loop could not pass through .it was too tight. We wonder if it made a difference that the rope went over an edge? Would be nice to experiment with.
Hi there @jillsindholt9904! Thanks so much for including your experience here, as it highlights some considerations for improvised rappels. In my experience the Macrame takes around 80lbs of force pulling on the release strand to pop-out the long stopper loop, and maybe 40 to 50lbs for each additional loop (alternating force back-and-forth between the two strands). The longer the rappel you do on the Macrame, the more the stretch of the rope will reduce your ability to transmit the force of your pull on the release strand to the anchor (you will need to take the stretch out of the rope). To ensure that the pulling force you apply to the end of the release strand reaches the stopper loop at the rappel tree, it's best to set-up a rappel that reduces the amount of terrain (such as edges, slabs, blocks, etc) that the rope runs over, or when this is not possible, to keep the rope as straight as possible as it runs over this terrain. For example if the best rappel anchor is set back from a lip you will rappel over, it's best to build a high anchor provided the choice of anchor will accommodate this in its shape and strength, and the rope cannot slide down the anchor to a new position. A good example would be a tree with a 12in diameter trunk at head-height, that has a 4in diameter limb coming off the trunk at head-height. In this scenario you can create the Macrame on the trunk above the branch, which will anchor the hitch at head-height (held in its high position by the branch) and make the rope travel in a straighter line from the tree over the cliff edge. Not only does having a high anchor make it easier to pull your rope, but it also reduces the likelihood of dragging portions of your rope across low angle terrain between the set-back anchor and the cliff where loose rock may rest, thus reducing the likelihood of causing rockfall. If no such anchor exists, and it is not possible to use an anchor very near the edge of the cliff, then the Macrame might not be the best choice. Incidentally these considerations also hold true for other rappel systems, including use of the Beal Escaper which can be a difficult system to release. Thanks again for watching and offering your experience for us all to learn from!
how about cow hitch around the natural anchor and also leaving no running end on other side of the rope and safety knot at the end, rappel down through both the ropes.
Does that makes any sense?
Hey @nineinchnail3382! Thanks for the question. Would you be able to explain the system you mentioned in a bit more detail? Happy to give my thoughts. Thanks for watching!
This looks incredible dangerous. Why not just a biner block with a tag line?
The reason a carabiner block doesn't work in this situation is because for a carabiner block to work the rappel point must be a ring or quick-link which the carabiner won't fit through. In this case there is no rappel point such as this. Thanks for the question!
what size rope do you typically use?
There is a video showing that if you manage to undo the non loaded strand while rappelling, the entire thing will come undine. It won't just snag on the next knot and stay safe. Having 6 hitches does nothing for your safety when you pull the loose side.
Could u post the link?
Have u ever tried to undo this knott though with a person's weight on it ?
Why not simply rappel on double rope and pull down on one side? That's more safe and you don't have to try pull down a big sling that, most likely, will attach to the next bold, rock or tree.
@@skillsforclimbing thanks for the answer, however, as of my climbing experiecne I see a higher risk of the sling getting attached to an obstacle than rope friction. I had several cases where the rope got attached even by the knot of two half ropes. For winter/ice climbing I agree that the rope should come down this way due to less obstacles above snow/ice - if an abalakov is not an option. Thanks - Flo
I want to point out that the 7 loops are absolutely NOT considered redundant. Not at all. When you start practicing this technique, you (hopefully...) quickly realize that your life essentially hangs on the very last loop.
As soon as this last loop is released, the "redundant loops" are so tiny and almost pulled out already themselves, that they most likely won't hold your weight for very long. Especially when you give them a tug.
I would still tie 5 to 7 loops to identfiy flaws in your pattern and keeping the entire thing "nice and tidy"
But please do not call that redundancy
At 2:40 you messed up... If you are going to post educational climbing videos please make sure they are spot on! Especially this knot!
This looks dangerous AF
Not even chalk smears.
I saw a video with a technique that seems much safer and easier to use here. It's a canyoneering technique, but it seems like it would work here as well.
th-cam.com/video/pekk_86pHvY/w-d-xo.html
you have to turn the captions on.
Watching this in disbelieve "Why the hell would you do that! No advantages! You can die stupidly!" until 5:58, where it is finally explained. Not worth it for me.
Once again a topic I have seen before but you have covered it in a way that adds clarity! Thanks!
Have you seen and tested the failure mode of this knot that is posted here?
Curious to hear your thoughts.
th-cam.com/video/zdZMau4hRCU/w-d-xo.html
@@skillsforclimbing Yep - It also sounds like the quality of the rope sheath has something to do with the failure mode after talking with some guides who teach Rescue courses out here in Moab. When the rope sheath is new and more slippery the bights of rope have a higher tendency to want to squeeze out of the system rather than pinch down and become secure.
You screwed up at 2:40.
I always wonder why not use a friction saver like arborist do. The really have nailed how to get down and leave no gear as well as looking into canyoning rappel systems. Climbers seem to have the worst rappel systems no cap.
Thanks for your thought @pants13! The primary reasons climbers often use different systems than arborists is because of the weight/bulk of the tools that arborists use and the time component of using them. The Macrame is often employed by the canyoning community, and has been for many years. Although the Macrame might seem scary if you haven't used it before or aren't familiar with its use, it is a surprisingly secure system, and has been used for many years by climbers and guides around the world. Although the Macrame is being used for short rappels in the video, I have used it for long steep rappels, as have many of my colleagues, and it can be a serious time saver and add security in situations where you might have relatively little of either time or security. Like all climbing systems, including those that arborists use, it is important to understand how to set it up correctly, and the context of when it makes sense. Thanks so much for watching! I hope this adds a bit of context, as I think others have had similar questions.
Yikes!
What a weird video. If the boulder is solid enough for an anchor, it's solid enough to loop the rope round and rappel on both strands like a normal person.
One might prefer not to have to endure the hassle and physical exertion required to overcome a normal person's normal amount of friction during rope retrieval after the descent.
It's much easier for the rope to get stuck if you have to pull the half the rope around the anchor.
@@donheinz68 compared to tying an extremely complicated and unnecessary knot, no it's not.
@@daveblack2602it could easily get stuck and you cannot pull a strand through to retrieve the rope