Cosworth is not only made V12 for Aston Martin Valkyrie and GMA T50, T50s and T33 but also designing and making brand new V16 engine for Bugatti that will rev up to 9000 rpm redline.
@@iaintdonknow There's a few articles posted online that says that few details have been released but sources leaked that the engine will be developed by Cosworth. But nothing concrete has been said. It's a rumor, that's likely going to be true.... perhaps lol
@@TheBadBunny87 well it would be very interesting, considering Rimac supplied Koenigsegg and Aston Martin with battery solutions for their production cars, so Rimac could have been in contact with Cosworth. Would be epic!
The Napier 24-litre W12 engine of the 1930's was used in a couple of famous cars; the Napier Railton and the Napier Bentley. The former was commissioned by John Cobb who raced it several times at Brooklands prior to WWII, breaking many track records. The Napier Bentley was a much later car, being built in 1972. As you can imagine, the sound of these monsters is.... well, monstrous!
Just visited Brooklands this weekend and fascinated to see the Napier Railton and the Napier Lion engine. You can play with it to see how the pistons worked in the 3-banks of cylinders. Massively complicated engineering tho!
Napier built some bonkers engines over the years, the Sabre H24 is surely the pinnacle of piston engine aircraft engines. They got all the way up to 3000hp by the end of the war, phew.
That car was beautiful and if they remade it today with a real engine I think it would sell well. It’s a pretty timeless and modern looking design with the glass roof.
The Napier Lion aero engine was built in the early 20th century in this configuration and was completely successful at delivering power. It was widely used. But it didn’t have to fit in a race car and had the advantage of big cubic inches and the normal de-rated output for constant running.
It wasn't used for racing, but it did set several speed records. I believe at one point in the 20's, the land, air and water speed records were all powered by Napier Lions.
@@slartibartfast2649 It was used for at least 2 races I know of - the 1927 and 1929 Schneider Trophy in a Supermarine S.5. 1st and 2nd in 1927 and 3rd in 1929
And now look at what Rob Dahm is doing with Tyson's 12 Rotor, getting it ready to run and tune up. It's simillar, a three banks of fours. Rotors, which are three sides each, making it a 36 cylinder.
"36 cylinder"??? You apparently know little about engineering, and _nothing_ about the layout of rotary engines. In case you need a clue, there is nothing cylindrical _anywhere_ in a rotary engine.
@@pulaski1 I was going to say "the crankshaft" (or the closest thing to one) but even that is eccentric. The thing the rotor spins in is closer to a double-circle too.
The Napier Railton’s W12 was the same as this, with three four cylinders stuck together. It’s a WW1 aero engine slapped in a land speed record car. I had a great chat with the lead engineer keeping that car going at Goodwood last year. Fascinating piece of engineering.
It is a Napier Lion Aero engine as mentioned in the video, not one of the late racing ones but a much more tame engine. The Lion was short so the car is reasonably proportioned, unlike the ones that were built using V12 aero engines.
Why did nobody want an engine from somebody they'd never heard of who was proposing a "unique" design that the team themselves would have to pay to develop? It's a mystery
@@memorimusic420 the VW engines are not true w engines. Even if you consider a VR engine a V engine which it's not, a 4 banked engine is an X configuration.
I love hearing about the high count engine designs, I especially love thinking about how some of these engines could be improved with modern tech like Freevalve to simplify the timing and tuning.
Also worth a mention is the one that got away: the MGN W12 that the AGS team almost signed up for. It had the same weird layout as the Life but was supposed to be fitted with some even weirder rotary valves - rather than opening and closing up and down, the valve was a rotating drum, where a slot in the drum moved past another slot in the cylinder head, thus opening and closing the gas flow in and out as needed. On a bench test, they didn't work anywhere near as well as Guy Nègre had intended, it only ever ran in a heavily-modified AGS JH22 at a private test which AGS had nothing to do with (other than supplying the chassis), and the engine's only attempt at racing was the Norma Auto Concept team being desperate for an engine for Le Mans in 1990... they fitted it in the car, but they never managed to get it started, and that was the end of that. AGS dodged a bullet with that one... so they never made it any further up the grid, but at least they weren't killed stone dead a year and a half before the F1 team finally went to the wall.
When I clicked I hoped we would see some of the MGN. Super interested to see one running. Unless it’s a random barn find, it’s likely scrap metal by now!
I designed a W7 in 1980. it was 7 cylinders but only used up the liner space of a v6 with the center bank having 3 cylinders and the side banks being 2 cylinders
If you want to watch a formula with multiple engine layouts then I would suggest WEC and IMSA. The Sebring 12 hour race at the weekend had way more excitement than a whole season of F1.
Agreed. Imagine with all the R&D budgets the big teams have, they could create engines we've never seen before if the rules were just displacement and max power output only. Or even just displacement with power being limitless. Too late now with the moves away from ICE to EV but if they did that a decade ago we'd have much better engines today in normal road cars as the tech trickles down.
@@milinddixit6583 it would just be massive waste of money, they would all fire up the computer and find same layout to be optimal for the rules and build that spending insane amounts of money on tiny improvements, if someone was silly enough to build something else they would be at the back of the grid while they spend even more money developing the same as everyone else
@@fuzzy1dk Possibly yes. Though if they know the regulations are relaxed (and will stay relaxed) I'd have thought they would be testing the layouts first before putting it in a race. But I guess you're right overall - in the end they'll all settle on the optimum layout. But I'd like to think they'd be exploring everything and trying out some innovations since nothing ever remains optimal.
One of your best videos! Really informative for us non technical petrolheads, such as myself. I share your impassioned plea, for more creativity in F1, to introduce different engine layouts rather than the standardised V6. And bring back the six wheeled Tyrelll! We need to escape the current F1 monotony…
Fantastic video. Apparently Mazda was developing a three-row W12 (...with a magnesium block...) for a range topping Amati luxury car based on the final 929, Amati being the cancelled luxury subbrand to compete with Lexus and Infiniti. There are images of the engine floating around the internet still. The 90s japa ese economic bubble produced some truly wild stuff.
Triple-bank W12 was also used very successfully in the Napier Lion, designed during WWI as an aero engine and used in many special such as the Napier-Railton
Your battery pack is inside the cabin with a flimsy non sealed plastic cover "hiding it",when it goes into thermal runaway it will either explode and nite nite all in the car (see recent Zoe video) or the toxic fumes released inside the car will delete all inside the cabin before you know it's happened,you might be lucky ish if it happens overnight if it's parked far enough away from your home you get a free firework display as you wait for the fire brigade to turn up and "make it safe" as it burns for a week,
FR what is that special in cars with motorcycle size and hp engines in cars? Im gonna shock you! Tesla model S is 12 years old and produce at least 306 HP with 0 MPG :p
Look up Bob LaBrie's 3 cyl Harley. Hand sand cast crank case, guy was a genius. I used to stop by his 'shop'( garage) from time to time. Built a thumper with the laft overs for his daughter. Ran great, and put down great times at NEDW back in the day
Whilst I still believe the sound of the v12's,10's and 8's sounded the best, I do really like the growl of a mountain lion that comes out the back of modern day F1 cars, and with a performance v6 in my daily driver I feel connected to F1 nowadays
Its Running again as well! Oliver Piazzi got it up and going, and got the Original Chassis put back together, for Goodwood in 2009! it made it up to the top of the Hill more than once as well!
Napier went on to develop the Lion engine, into the sabre which was a H design of 24 cylinders, which powered the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest . These engines were developing 2400 hp without supercharging/ turbo charging in like 1944, when they added a supercharger this figure was increased to 3800 hp. Imagine a development of this with all the modern technology like electronic fuel injection, different construction materials and methods ( making the engines lighter).
Napier developed two H-block air cooled engines, the Rapier and Dagger, before developing the Sabre. None of them had much to do with the lion, but the Sabre in particular was also a sleeve valve engine which is a whole extra can of worms.
@@nerd1000ify Yes, differerent designers and different design ethos. The Lion was designed by Arthur Rowledge, one of the most prolific aero engine designers, especailly at Rolls-Royce. The Napier H engines were designed by Frank Halford who also designed the deHavilland piston engines and turbo jets, the H1 (Goblin), the H2 ((Ghost) and the H3 ((Giron). The Goblin was the first flight certified jet engine outside Germany and was the engine that powered the maiden flight of the Meteor. Arthur Rowledge was from an older school that Frank Halford. The air cooled Napier Rapier was square and the Dagger just over square, extermely unusual in that period. The Dagger VIII produced 1000hp out of its 16.8 litres, fantastic specific power for that time.
Yet another great video. With your thoughts about possible F1 engines, I wonder : if it were simply stated that cars can only use X amount of fuel throughout the race (like currently) could engine regs be left WIDE OPEN ? Let the engine manufacturers decide whether to have 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 16 or 100cylinder engines of any displacement they like, turbo or non-turbo, the great equalizer will be the fact that they are limited on the amount of fuel available. Would this work ??? What are your thoughts Mike ????
@maxnicholls7254 yeah look at Harry's Garage, his XJC V12 manual, what he's done with that car shows Jaguar just lumbered it's own engine with a dull auto and mild tuning, presumably to suit the Americans, with a manual and mild tuning it sounds wonderful
The narrow angle Vee concept was a Lancia first I thought. They had the V4 with one head in their Lamda in 1922 and it powered many of their cars right up until the Fulvia in 1972 I think. They also developed a V6 in the same format. This was long before Volkswagen.
The problem with suggesting a free cylinder layout for F1 is that all the manufacturers migrated to the V10 and made it standard years before cylinder numbers were mandated. Quite simply there is always an optimal layout for a set of regs and with the money spent in the sport it's found very quickly. As for the current turbo engines, the V6 layout was determined back in 2011/12, Porsche were just using their WEC engine from the 919 as a testbed but didn't actually have the capacity to run an F1 program and were betting on a tie up with Red Bull, since that fell through they wont be entering F1.
Have to hand it to the lads calling out to a scrapyard to film when the opportunity to film the subject engine wasn’t possible (I’m assuming). It really added to the video. Fair play lads ❤
Audi proposed a "broad arrow" W12 in the early 1990s Avus concept car. I don't think it was ever a running prototype, but it did provoke some interest in the layout. Objections to the layout included the weight - particularly the high centre of gravity - and the vibration characteristics.
I would love a F1 style series where they get to do what they want with the engines, be a bit more relaxed on the design and let the creativity come out in obvious ways
Mind you, that was a vintage era for experiments, many of them hopeless, associated with big names that really couldn't have done their sponsors any favours: the Yamaha V8 that scuppered Zakspeed's chances of making it in F1, the Subaru flat-12 that was as bad as the Life, the Arrows-Porsche V12, and the Lamborghini V12 that sounded fantastic but always (except possibly with Larrousse, which was sabotaged by the FIA) disappointed 🙁
I can’t remember what company it was but that it was Italian, had a 4 cylinder design that inducted air into the center of the head and exhausted out on both sides, it was wild looking, but I could see that head design working in this application.
The GTP series in the 80"s and early 90's had a formula that naturally aspirated 2 valves per cylinder engines could be up to 6 liters, Turbo charged engines with 2 valves per cylinder I think up to 3.5 liters, and Turbo charged 4 valves per cylinder capped at 2.5 liters. It didn't matter how many cylinders.
I wish people would stop saying that it was VW who pioneered the narrow angle configuration - it wasn't! It was Lancia. They produced a narrow angle V engine from 1922 up to 1976 in the Fulvia. Volkswagen merely copied the idea.
I refer you to the Napier Railton built for John Cobb in 1933 and again in 1938 with two broad arrow Lion engines in the Mobil Special, which first exceeded 350 mph.
Agree the V6 engines in F1 sound tame, compared to what came before, more akin to GP2 / F2 - I think the V8 engines were amazing at high revs particularly, but no comparison to the same configuration of old when you could tell the difference between an 8, 10 or 12 cylinder car when they were warming up in the paddock early in the morning, when you were still at campsite.
Imagine a world where F1 regulations were concerned just about safety and not about car layout and engines. Specify a set of chassis requirements, min weight and safety features to keep the drivers alive but let the engineers run wild with the tech. There'll be a point where the cars become "undriveable" by even the best and that will be your natural point of changing where improvements are made.
The early Napier Lion engines (which held the air speed record for most of the 1930s) were made of sheet metal. Not cast blocks, not forged.... sheet metal. You can find the engineering drawings online.
Bugatti made the right call, if you want a shorter 12+ cylinder engine the VR design is the way to go, 3 banks is one too many and causes issues with manifold placement, 4 might address that but then it's even heavier (as cool as it might be to see a 4 bank engine - a flat engine with a 60/90 degree V on top, I'm sure it would sound glorious too).
The 80's Turbos were banned because they were just too expensive, the power issue was easily controlled by the wastegate pop off valves but Honda and Ford started dumping in more money than the rest wanted to spend to catch up. Renault and BMW quit, Marlboro and TAG had no intention of paying Porsche or anyone else to update their unit and Ferrari just wanted to return to what they were familiar with.
The problem was the power and the the power curve, to get them off the grid required lots of revs and lots of wheel spin, which produced lots of smoke. The not uncommon stalled car at the front of the grid was not visible to the back of the grid until... BANG!! Yet another grid pile up. The problem with the turbo power was that every time the rule swere changed to curb the power output, the teams would find another way to get it back over 1000hp. I think F1 just got sick of the cat and mouse game. The turbos were huge and unresponsive, the cars were a nightmare to control, yust look at the late BWMs.
That triple 4 layout is more for the applications that have loads of torque because torque gets divided between 3 banks. 2 banks are more than enough for a lightweight high-revving engine that doesn't have that much torque. Yes, you can adapt 3 bank engine to be a high revving f1 engine, but is completely unnecessary. And I don't understand why he had to create a compact engine when it's a lot heavier it has a higher center of gravity, and existing V engines fit just fine.
@@MrBlazemaster525 Judd’s timeline I can never get straight in my head. With how much & how quickly they grew & expanded, and not just in F1, I just imagined they had to have been a small shop in the beginning. At least. I know they had Ford backing, but I’m not sure how much backing it was early on. I remember when it was announced here in the states, there were a lot of slightly confused faces on camera. Which made a lot of people, on the outside at least, interpreting that as there was a rub between the two parties. How important or serious the presumed rub was - we never knew.
“With how much & how quickly they…” They being Cosworth of course. I guess I was too busy scratching my head & thinking to use ‘Cosworth’ rather than ‘they’. 🤦♂️🤣
@@OldStreetDoc had a check as well to be sure Judd isn't as small as we'd like to think(Jack Brabham's cache helps) but they definitely took longer to do their own blocks('71 founding, '84 first engine, '88 first F1 engine)
@@MrBlazemaster525 It’s funny about Judd… I always forget about Jack’s involvement. A Brabham involved would HAVE to have brought a huge gain. In bringing in a lot of financial opportunities, technical & engineering help, and many other types as well.
Cosworth is not only made V12 for Aston Martin Valkyrie and GMA T50, T50s and T33 but also designing and making brand new V16 engine for Bugatti that will rev up to 9000 rpm redline.
Nice, I wasn't aware Cosworth was the ones building it for Bugatti!
@@TheBadBunny87 are they tho?
@@iaintdonknow well I've taken this comment at face value. I'll check what Google says...
@@iaintdonknow There's a few articles posted online that says that few details have been released but sources leaked that the engine will be developed by Cosworth. But nothing concrete has been said. It's a rumor, that's likely going to be true.... perhaps lol
@@TheBadBunny87 well it would be very interesting, considering Rimac supplied Koenigsegg and Aston Martin with battery solutions for their production cars, so Rimac could have been in contact with Cosworth. Would be epic!
The Napier 24-litre W12 engine of the 1930's was used in a couple of famous cars; the Napier Railton and the Napier Bentley. The former was commissioned by John Cobb who raced it several times at Brooklands prior to WWII, breaking many track records. The Napier Bentley was a much later car, being built in 1972.
As you can imagine, the sound of these monsters is.... well, monstrous!
Cobb and his car still hold the Brooklands lap record. 😁
The Napier Lion, used in many of the 1930s Land speed record cars, Aircraft and speedboats,
Just visited Brooklands this weekend and fascinated to see the Napier Railton and the Napier Lion engine. You can play with it to see how the pistons worked in the 3-banks of cylinders. Massively complicated engineering tho!
Napier built some bonkers engines over the years, the Sabre H24 is surely the pinnacle of piston engine aircraft engines. They got all the way up to 3000hp by the end of the war, phew.
@@woopimagpieThe last version of the Sabre I think was the VII and made 4,400hp.
You forgot the 1991 Audi Avus concept presented at the Tokyo Motor Show with its 6.0 L 60-valve W12 made of wood and plastic...
It was supposed to make 550 PS. It was also the first R8 prototype. 15 years before the production R8.
That car was beautiful and if they remade it today with a real engine I think it would sell well. It’s a pretty timeless and modern looking design with the glass roof.
@@alexburke1899 The 1991 Audi Quattro Spyder Concept was nice too in my opinion!
The Napier Lion aero engine was built in the early 20th century in this configuration and was completely successful at delivering power. It was widely used. But it didn’t have to fit in a race car and had the advantage of big cubic inches and the normal de-rated output for constant running.
It wasn't used for racing, but it did set several speed records. I believe at one point in the 20's, the land, air and water speed records were all powered by Napier Lions.
@@slartibartfast2649 It was used for at least 2 races I know of - the 1927 and 1929 Schneider Trophy in a Supermarine S.5. 1st and 2nd in 1927 and 3rd in 1929
@@AndrewBrowneABF81John Cobbs LSR car had 2 x lion’s fitted
You can see one in a car in the Science Museum in London.
See the 1933 Napier-Railton which is still maintained in fully working order and run regularly, usually in the Goodwood Revival each September.
And now look at what Rob Dahm is doing with Tyson's 12 Rotor, getting it ready to run and tune up. It's simillar, a three banks of fours. Rotors, which are three sides each, making it a 36 cylinder.
Well it will have 36 combustion chambers at least.
@Mountain-Man-3000 36 Chambers? Time to make a wu tang themed car
will need an oil tanker behind it just to keep the rotor tips from wearing......
"36 cylinder"??? You apparently know little about engineering, and _nothing_ about the layout of rotary engines. In case you need a clue, there is nothing cylindrical _anywhere_ in a rotary engine.
@@pulaski1 I was going to say "the crankshaft" (or the closest thing to one) but even that is eccentric. The thing the rotor spins in is closer to a double-circle too.
The Napier Railton’s W12 was the same as this, with three four cylinders stuck together. It’s a WW1 aero engine slapped in a land speed record car. I had a great chat with the lead engineer keeping that car going at Goodwood last year. Fascinating piece of engineering.
It is a Napier Lion Aero engine as mentioned in the video, not one of the late racing ones but a much more tame engine. The Lion was short so the car is reasonably proportioned, unlike the ones that were built using V12 aero engines.
Never seen an engine like it before! A prayer for all the jaguars.
Why did nobody want an engine from somebody they'd never heard of who was proposing a "unique" design that the team themselves would have to pay to develop?
It's a mystery
A great name for the concept W18 engine would've been the "666" engine LOL.
W engines with 3 banks were 'common' in the pre war days but to see that in the 80s in insane but so extremely cool!
yup that is a real W engine. the so called W from vw is just a version of V12 stacked up to make the block shorter. two vr6 in a V
@hotdog9262 yeah but two vr engines is still a real W engine tho
@@memorimusic420 the VW engines are not true w engines. Even if you consider a VR engine a V engine which it's not, a 4 banked engine is an X configuration.
I love hearing about the high count engine designs, I especially love thinking about how some of these engines could be improved with modern tech like Freevalve to simplify the timing and tuning.
Definately warming up to Mike, this type of historical mini doc is very cool.
The Life engine was actually a 'proper' W form, like the Napier Lion. The Bentley and Bugatti Veyron engines are really the ones that are misnamed.
Also worth a mention is the one that got away: the MGN W12 that the AGS team almost signed up for. It had the same weird layout as the Life but was supposed to be fitted with some even weirder rotary valves - rather than opening and closing up and down, the valve was a rotating drum, where a slot in the drum moved past another slot in the cylinder head, thus opening and closing the gas flow in and out as needed. On a bench test, they didn't work anywhere near as well as Guy Nègre had intended, it only ever ran in a heavily-modified AGS JH22 at a private test which AGS had nothing to do with (other than supplying the chassis), and the engine's only attempt at racing was the Norma Auto Concept team being desperate for an engine for Le Mans in 1990... they fitted it in the car, but they never managed to get it started, and that was the end of that. AGS dodged a bullet with that one... so they never made it any further up the grid, but at least they weren't killed stone dead a year and a half before the F1 team finally went to the wall.
When I clicked I hoped we would see some of the MGN. Super interested to see one running. Unless it’s a random barn find, it’s likely scrap metal by now!
I love F1 minnows, but the Life team had to borrow tyre pressure gauges from other teams at races.
And lets not forget their car (yes, singular) was slower than even F3 cars of the time
I think it might be more interesting to have a gear limited top speed and allow any size, power, and layout engine you want.
Would have to be electronically speed limited, since redline varies.
I designed a W7 in 1980. it was 7 cylinders but only used up the liner space of a v6 with the center bank having 3 cylinders and the side banks being 2 cylinders
Very nteresting
@@PoloRolo94 it would be impractical to actually make. the vibration dampening and tooling needed would just make it too costly
If you want to watch a formula with multiple engine layouts then I would suggest WEC and IMSA. The Sebring 12 hour race at the weekend had way more excitement than a whole season of F1.
Yes, yes,yes Mike. More engineering freedom on engine design.
Agreed. Imagine with all the R&D budgets the big teams have, they could create engines we've never seen before if the rules were just displacement and max power output only. Or even just displacement with power being limitless. Too late now with the moves away from ICE to EV but if they did that a decade ago we'd have much better engines today in normal road cars as the tech trickles down.
@@milinddixit6583 it would just be massive waste of money, they would all fire up the computer and find same layout to be optimal for the rules and build that spending insane amounts of money on tiny improvements, if someone was silly enough to build something else they would be at the back of the grid while they spend even more money developing the same as everyone else
@@fuzzy1dk Possibly yes. Though if they know the regulations are relaxed (and will stay relaxed) I'd have thought they would be testing the layouts first before putting it in a race. But I guess you're right overall - in the end they'll all settle on the optimum layout. But I'd like to think they'd be exploring everything and trying out some innovations since nothing ever remains optimal.
@@milinddixit6583 it's not 80's anymore, that exploring will be done on a computer
Why didnt they make the third bank a hot V? Have the 2 intakes together for one side and the 2 exhausts together for the other sife?
I love all the technical information from drive tribe
By the way Ferrari v Ford is on Netflix Christian Bale has got to be UKs best actor he plays a 60s English mechanic perfectly
I wish wish the w8 found in the passat was more reliable and succesful cause its a sweet idea
One of your best videos! Really informative for us non technical petrolheads, such as myself. I share your impassioned plea, for more creativity in F1, to introduce different engine layouts rather than the standardised V6. And bring back the six wheeled Tyrelll! We need to escape the current F1 monotony…
Great video as usual. Just wondering how the S85 MX5 is going? Si, Christchurch, NZ
The worst 12 cylinder is three 4 cylinder Land Rover Ingenium engines next to each other.
12:05 On the right cilinder bank, they should have put the intake at the bottom, where there is cold air.
I had the exact same thoughts and just posted a comment about it.
5:24, it wasn't "estimated" to make 480hp, I have the dyno graph. It's peak torque was 343.2 Nm @ 8000 rpm and peak power was 463-471bhp at 10500 rpm.
Where did you get the dyno graph? Can you send a link?
Must have been a brave man taking it up to 10500 rpm 😶
Fantastic video. Apparently Mazda was developing a three-row W12 (...with a magnesium block...) for a range topping Amati luxury car based on the final 929, Amati being the cancelled luxury subbrand to compete with Lexus and Infiniti. There are images of the engine floating around the internet still. The 90s japa ese economic bubble produced some truly wild stuff.
I always wanted someone to make a W15 (triple 5). I pictured it sounding absolutely crazy since I5's and V10's sound so wonderful
3:35 sounds like F1 to me, ban everything rather than fixing the real issues.
Triple-bank W12 was also used very successfully in the Napier Lion, designed during WWI as an aero engine and used in many special such as the Napier-Railton
Hardly high performance when my 3 cylinder 1.2 litre Renault hybrid produces 200 horse power and almost 60 mpg on average.
yes, but your engine is about 30 years newer (also does your power/mpg include use of the electric motor?)
Your battery pack is inside the cabin with a flimsy non sealed plastic cover "hiding it",when it goes into thermal runaway it will either explode and nite nite all in the car (see recent Zoe video) or the toxic fumes released inside the car will delete all inside the cabin before you know it's happened,you might be lucky ish if it happens overnight if it's parked far enough away from your home you get a free firework display as you wait for the fire brigade to turn up and "make it safe" as it burns for a week,
Wait until you hear about the Peugeot 3008 Hybrid 4 that had the same power, almost twice the torque, and all at 70/80 UK/US MPG 11 years ago!
Ok and?
Motorcycles with same size engines from 2000s produce similar ammount of hp
FR what is that special in cars with motorcycle size and hp engines in cars?
Im gonna shock you!
Tesla model S is 12 years old and produce at least 306 HP with 0 MPG :p
A W-3 would make a really cool motorcycle/cyclecar engine.
Look up Bob LaBrie's 3 cyl Harley. Hand sand cast crank case, guy was a genius. I used to stop by his 'shop'( garage) from time to time. Built a thumper with the laft overs for his daughter. Ran great, and put down great times at NEDW back in the day
@crazytrain7114 Awesome cool 😮
Bought with cash back from your w-2
It's actually quite a common configuration with air compressors.
Whilst I still believe the sound of the v12's,10's and 8's sounded the best, I do really like the growl of a mountain lion that comes out the back of modern day F1 cars, and with a performance v6 in my daily driver I feel connected to F1 nowadays
😂
Never mentioned Lancia with their narrow 'V' engines befor Fiat takeover.
Its Running again as well! Oliver Piazzi got it up and going, and got the Original Chassis put back together, for Goodwood in 2009! it made it up to the top of the Hill more than once as well!
Napier went on to develop the Lion engine, into the sabre which was a H design of 24 cylinders, which powered the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest . These engines were developing 2400 hp without supercharging/ turbo charging in like 1944, when they added a supercharger this figure was increased to 3800 hp. Imagine a development of this with all the modern technology like electronic fuel injection, different construction materials and methods ( making the engines lighter).
Napier developed two H-block air cooled engines, the Rapier and Dagger, before developing the Sabre. None of them had much to do with the lion, but the Sabre in particular was also a sleeve valve engine which is a whole extra can of worms.
@@nerd1000ify Yes, differerent designers and different design ethos. The Lion was designed by Arthur Rowledge, one of the most prolific aero engine designers, especailly at Rolls-Royce. The Napier H engines were designed by Frank Halford who also designed the deHavilland piston engines and turbo jets, the H1 (Goblin), the H2 ((Ghost) and the H3 ((Giron). The Goblin was the first flight certified jet engine outside Germany and was the engine that powered the maiden flight of the Meteor. Arthur Rowledge was from an older school that Frank Halford. The air cooled Napier Rapier was square and the Dagger just over square, extermely unusual in that period. The Dagger VIII produced 1000hp out of its 16.8 litres, fantastic specific power for that time.
Yet another great video.
With your thoughts about possible F1 engines, I wonder : if it were simply stated that cars can only use X amount of fuel throughout the race (like currently) could engine regs be left WIDE OPEN ?
Let the engine manufacturers decide whether to have 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 16 or 100cylinder engines of any displacement they like, turbo or non-turbo, the great equalizer will be the fact that they are limited on the amount of fuel available.
Would this work ???
What are your thoughts Mike ????
Before I started the video I assumed it was going to be about the XJS 12 cylinder engine.
Didn’t realize something could top that.
I myself thought it was going to be about Subaru's 12 cylinder boxer.
Jaguar V12 is one of the best V12s ever made
@maxnicholls7254 yeah look at Harry's Garage, his XJC V12 manual, what he's done with that car shows Jaguar just lumbered it's own engine with a dull auto and mild tuning, presumably to suit the Americans, with a manual and mild tuning it sounds wonderful
There was also a Subaru flat 12 around the same time. Could say it fell flat.
The narrow angle Vee concept was a Lancia first I thought. They had the V4 with one head in their Lamda in 1922 and it powered many of their cars right up until the Fulvia in 1972 I think. They also developed a V6 in the same format. This was long before Volkswagen.
"No Jaguar X-Types were hurt in the making of this video." How can you hurt something that is already broken?
Crazy ideas sometimes don't work.
Still CRAZY ideas can be FUN
The left Cylinder bank is the wrong way around, the intake and outake are on top of each other... just switch them.
I had the exact same thoughts and just posted a comment about it.
yaah hey! its so easy... so there must be some reason they where not able to... but i think its just that easy and we right...@@Angel-dp9sl
Anzani made 3 cylinder 'W' aero engines in the early 1900's. Bleriot used one on his Trans-channel flight in 1909. ~3 1/2 L, 25HP
The problem with suggesting a free cylinder layout for F1 is that all the manufacturers migrated to the V10 and made it standard years before cylinder numbers were mandated. Quite simply there is always an optimal layout for a set of regs and with the money spent in the sport it's found very quickly.
As for the current turbo engines, the V6 layout was determined back in 2011/12, Porsche were just using their WEC engine from the 919 as a testbed but didn't actually have the capacity to run an F1 program and were betting on a tie up with Red Bull, since that fell through they wont be entering F1.
Have to hand it to the lads calling out to a scrapyard to film when the opportunity to film the subject engine wasn’t possible (I’m assuming). It really added to the video. Fair play lads ❤
I wonder how an Audi straight-five would sound at F1 rpms...
Boom
It'll sound a lot like the four trumpets of the apocalypse
Even as an overall failure I’m sure some useful information came from the attempt. If nothing more, “don’t do that”.
Very cool Mike. Times were certainly different back then and real ingenuity to make it work.
how is the V10 engine development coming along for the miata project? haven't heard from that idea in a while or is it completly dead in the water?
Audi proposed a "broad arrow" W12 in the early 1990s Avus concept car. I don't think it was ever a running prototype, but it did provoke some interest in the layout. Objections to the layout included the weight - particularly the high centre of gravity - and the vibration characteristics.
I can imagine the frictional losses and complexity was horrendous. Nope.
I would love a F1 style series where they get to do what they want with the engines, be a bit more relaxed on the design and let the creativity come out in obvious ways
The Life W12: The only F1 engine of the era that made the Subaru-badged Motori Moderni flat-12 employed by Coloni seem decent.
Mind you, that was a vintage era for experiments, many of them hopeless, associated with big names that really couldn't have done their sponsors any favours: the Yamaha V8 that scuppered Zakspeed's chances of making it in F1, the Subaru flat-12 that was as bad as the Life, the Arrows-Porsche V12, and the Lamborghini V12 that sounded fantastic but always (except possibly with Larrousse, which was sabotaged by the FIA) disappointed 🙁
Napier mane some interesting engines, the Deltic, Sabre, Lion.......... all worth an in depth review
I can’t remember what company it was but that it was Italian, had a 4 cylinder design that inducted air into the center of the head and exhausted out on both sides, it was wild looking, but I could see that head design working in this application.
I think you're thinking of Lancia's Triflux engine.
@@dylansmit3883 that’s it
I think the idea of a W12 wasn't bad - it just they had not enough funds to properly realize it.
Interesting piece of history. Thank you
The GTP series in the 80"s and early 90's had a formula that naturally aspirated 2 valves per cylinder engines could be up to 6 liters, Turbo charged engines with 2 valves per cylinder I think up to 3.5 liters, and Turbo charged 4 valves per cylinder capped at 2.5 liters. It didn't matter how many cylinders.
Everyone keeps forgetting about Lancia. They had a narrow angle V-4 in the 1920 through the 1970's. Decades before any VW's VR engines.
A girl friend of mine from high school's parents had a VW Phaeton. That was the first W engine I ever heard of
I wish people would stop saying that it was VW who pioneered the narrow angle configuration - it wasn't! It was Lancia. They produced a narrow angle V engine from 1922 up to 1976 in the Fulvia. Volkswagen merely copied the idea.
I refer you to the Napier Railton built for John Cobb in 1933 and again in 1938 with two broad arrow Lion engines in the Mobil Special, which first exceeded 350 mph.
Nah if we're going to talk garbage 12 cylinder engines we have to talk about the boat anchor that was the Subaru 1235 H-12.
Agree the V6 engines in F1 sound tame, compared to what came before, more akin to GP2 / F2 - I think the V8 engines were amazing at high revs particularly, but no comparison to the same configuration of old when you could tell the difference between an 8, 10 or 12 cylinder car when they were warming up in the paddock early in the morning, when you were still at campsite.
Honestly, that's what I imagined when I first heard "W12"
I think you might have forgotten Lancia bringing out narrow bank V-4 engines in the 1920s!!!
Part of the w engine from VWAG is a 72° intermediate angle. There is a few W10 engines kicking around.
Very interesting. Never heard of a motor like this. Would be cool to see a top whatever worst/best in engine design and why it did or dint work.
Mike take a look at the Chrysler A57.. 30 Cyl, 5 banks of 6..
Imagine a world where F1 regulations were concerned just about safety and not about car layout and engines.
Specify a set of chassis requirements, min weight and safety features to keep the drivers alive but let the engineers run wild with the tech. There'll be a point where the cars become "undriveable" by even the best and that will be your natural point of changing where improvements are made.
sad to see all those engines rotting away outside in a field. Is there nothing salvagable on these?
The early Napier Lion engines (which held the air speed record for most of the 1930s) were made of sheet metal. Not cast blocks, not forged.... sheet metal. You can find the engineering drawings online.
Bugatti made the right call, if you want a shorter 12+ cylinder engine the VR design is the way to go, 3 banks is one too many and causes issues with manifold placement, 4 might address that but then it's even heavier (as cool as it might be to see a 4 bank engine - a flat engine with a 60/90 degree V on top, I'm sure it would sound glorious too).
The 1991 Audi Avus was the first R8 prototype. It had a 3-bank W12, "arrow" or "Triple 4". Or T12 i call it. It made 550 PS from 6 liters.
The VR6 engine was so great, it had 8 cylinders (on your animation !) 😂
Wow a drivetribe video that isn't about Clarkson or Hammond.
There is a rumor that Mercedes considered developing w18 (triple 6) engine for 2
W140 generation S class
Worst engine ever...
* Triumph V8 has entered the chat *
PRV engine has entered the chat
Personally I think, F1 should simple give a fuel and emissions limit, max car dimension, and give free range on all else.
The 80's Turbos were banned because they were just too expensive, the power issue was easily controlled by the wastegate pop off valves but Honda and Ford started dumping in more money than the rest wanted to spend to catch up. Renault and BMW quit, Marlboro and TAG had no intention of paying Porsche or anyone else to update their unit and Ferrari just wanted to return to what they were familiar with.
The problem was the power and the the power curve, to get them off the grid required lots of revs and lots of wheel spin, which produced lots of smoke. The not uncommon stalled car at the front of the grid was not visible to the back of the grid until... BANG!! Yet another grid pile up. The problem with the turbo power was that every time the rule swere changed to curb the power output, the teams would find another way to get it back over 1000hp. I think F1 just got sick of the cat and mouse game. The turbos were huge and unresponsive, the cars were a nightmare to control, yust look at the late BWMs.
You need to look at the Napier Deltic engine
That one section of the engine reminds me of Feuling W3 choper bike
Forgive me if I'm late to the party on this, but my surprise and appreciation at seeing a Scotsman rocking an NHL team knows no bounds.
I'm just waiting for a motor manufacturer to look at the Napier "Deltic" engine and go "Hmmm... shall we try that in a car?"
This is how trying to reinvent the wheel looks like.
Tri 4 would be a cool name for a w12 engine
you don't need to imagine top class racing with different engines, they already do in WEC
That triple 4 layout is more for the applications that have loads of torque because torque gets divided between 3 banks. 2 banks are more than enough for a lightweight high-revving engine that doesn't have that much torque. Yes, you can adapt 3 bank engine to be a high revving f1 engine, but is completely unnecessary.
And I don't understand why he had to create a compact engine when it's a lot heavier it has a higher center of gravity, and existing V engines fit just fine.
Comparatively, weren’t Judd & Cosworth small shops as well back then?
Judd maybe but Cosworth had Ford funding and the Lotus F1 contract from early doors
@@MrBlazemaster525 Judd’s timeline I can never get straight in my head. With how much & how quickly they grew & expanded, and not just in F1, I just imagined they had to have been a small shop in the beginning. At least. I know they had Ford backing, but I’m not sure how much backing it was early on. I remember when it was announced here in the states, there were a lot of slightly confused faces on camera. Which made a lot of people, on the outside at least, interpreting that as there was a rub between the two parties. How important or serious the presumed rub was - we never knew.
“With how much & how quickly they…”
They being Cosworth of course.
I guess I was too busy scratching my head & thinking to use ‘Cosworth’ rather than ‘they’. 🤦♂️🤣
@@OldStreetDoc had a check as well to be sure
Judd isn't as small as we'd like to think(Jack Brabham's cache helps) but they definitely took longer to do their own blocks('71 founding, '84 first engine, '88 first F1 engine)
@@MrBlazemaster525 It’s funny about Judd… I always forget about Jack’s involvement. A Brabham involved would HAVE to have brought a huge gain. In bringing in a lot of financial opportunities, technical & engineering help, and many other types as well.
Well done! Thanks.
Please make a part.2 about the most stable engines in history!
The most stable engine has one horsepower!
The vw groups W engines are offset V 16's not true W16's, Which is why their new engine is a v16 and why it was easy for them to make.
Lancia also made a VR6 in the 1920s. Which was the worlds first V6.
Fascinating. Great piece.
Worked very well for Napier with the Lion family of engines...
I was expecting the story about 80s jaguar engines
For my money the choice would be conventional 60 degree V12 but single cam and pushrod valve actuation not OHC.