Chinese Cars cost LESS upfront but A LOT MORE later on!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2024
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Chinese brands have their market in Australia and some of them are better than others, like GWM. But how much did it really cost me to buy a few of those "cheaper" vehicles instead of a Toyota or some other well-established brand car?
Buying a GWM HAVAL, LDV, MG or another Chinese car in Australia might be a lot easier, cheaper upfront and more accessible in terms of delivery timelines, but there are the invisible costs of vehicle depreciation, resale value, perceived quality, and a few related topics.
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📃 VIDEO CHAPTERS 📃
00:00 - Welcome!
00:20 - Main Topics
01:40 - Sponsor Segment
02:10 - Reasons to Sell
03:40 - GWM loss of value
05:15 - Buying for Cash?
06:15 - When to buy Chinese?
08:00 - The Emerging Problem
09:25 - What I decided to do?
11:30 - Upcoming content!
12:55 - Wrapping up
🎵 Music by @TheFatRat
#havalh6 #havaljolion #gwmhaval - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
As people love jumping to (wrong) conclusions, let me clarify a few points for you 👇
1. I will still review Chinese cars including GWM, MG and the rest.
2. I still believe there's a market for Chinese cars in Australia (as I said and explained in the video...)
3. I'm not (personally) interested in EV... But never say never.
long long time ago in a galaxy far far away kia and hyundai where in that spot sir..........
@@kajak012 yep but it took them a loooooooong time 😉
MG is the best chinese brand in my opinion but Changan is selling so much in my country.
@@ValueCarsAU I really like your reviews .Let me share my thoughts . I think this time might be quicker .The early Hyundais and Kias during the early days were far inferior to the Toyota,Mazda or Subaru. This is not the case with Tank 300 . Secondly ,Word of mouth travels much faster these days because of widespread use of Social Media . Also regarding depreciation I think that if you buy it now and sell in the next 2 years you will definitely take a big "haircut". The image and cult following is very unlikely to occur in such a short period . But in the next 3 to 5 years, the jury is still out in my opinion. If it proves to be worth keeping the asking price may increase significantly .In that case resale value will also have to increase proportional in my opinion.
I agree that if you plan on buying a Chinese vehicle, you need to do it with the understanding you should hold onto it for 7-10 years + to avoid burning cash. For anyone who changes cars semi-regularly, these are not a good buy from a financial perspective.
100%. Couldn't have summarised it better.
Can you please explain why these cars wouldn't be a good financial purchase, if I am someone who changes cars like I change my jocks 😅 ?? Cheers
I don’t entirely agree with your reasoning Dimitri, I don’t know what the markets like in Oz it’s a long time since I left but in NZ no matter what brand you buy be it Toyota or Ford etc then it depreciates $10 to $12k as soon as you drive off the dealers lot, so no matter what brand you buy, it depreciates as soon as you drive it.
I have no idea what your novated lease is but it must still cost you money over and above the price of the vehicle, the same as financing. It makes more sense to pay cash and save on the interest charges and fees as you wouldn’t make that much in interest by leaving your own cash invested. The only time I have paid a car off in the past 20 years was when the dealer was offering 2 years interest free finance, yes you still get stung for establishment fees etc but it’s still a financial saving over the 2 year term.
I work on the philosophy that if I buy a new car with a five year warranty then I plan to keep that car for five years before replacing it with a brand new model that way any major issues are covered by the warranty and I don’t have to fork out additional cash for repairs.
Logical approach, Derek, makes sense... I'll expand on my reasoning when my novated lease finance is approved and I'm 99% certain that I'm going for the car I have in mind (not yet). Novated leasing is an interesting concept that makes a lot of sense once someone explains it properly. I will try and do that in one of the upcoming (already scheduled) videos. Let's talk then! 😉
looking foward to this episode sir @@ValueCarsAU
Toyota depreciates more than Chinese brands in your country? lol Ford I can believe but Toyota?
@@AC-yt3we no, that’s not the case, the point I was trying to make that if you buy a brand new car from any manufacturer it starts depreciating as soon as you drive away and the average is 10 to 12k on any brand.
Thank you for your honesty and integrity. I really appreciate it and it makes your videos and opinions much more reliable and believable in my humble opinion. Great job, my friend!
Thanks for your kind words of support, Rod!
Great Discussion I have done the Novated process a couple of times and it is still something that does come up in my options but I believe you are right there are definitely cars that even though novated leases are a better option than other, I will be very interested in what you decide, I will be interested in how you decide on length of lease and how many nice to haves come to your decision making as I found that to be a very easy way to affect the viability of the lease in my circumstances, but this is definitely a great topic to review 👍🏻
Yep, another video is scheduled where we'll talk about best ways to buy a car - cash vs novated lease vs finance specifically... What were your own findings like? I.e. when did you make sense for you to go for a novated lease vs buy the car out right?
@@ValueCarsAU looking forward to it
Thank you. Fantastic review. Very good analysis
Glad to hear you've enjoyed it!
Enjoying the channel, will stay tuned for the alternative ways to purchase- great topic. Novated leases are good, as long as you won't change jobs during it. Still looking for a car to buy here but might move from the east to the west coast and considering shipping / driving costs or just waiting until the move. A 'car subscription' (moto pool) is for me at the moment- that's similar to a lease and great for people who want to test drive a certain model over a month or more with no long term commitment
As for Chinese brands, in my opinion its pretty simple. Until they are proven to last then they are a big gamble. Saw two people recently in LDV 90s broken down and stuck due to electronics. The GWM first gen Steed pick ups aren't that popular due to lots of issues so they failed the longevity test. Will the GWM Cannons be running fine in 10 years or plagued with issues? How quickly will it take to run them into the ground? There isn't much belief and so the depreciation is a serious issue.
And the other fair point is that the price gap between the Chinese brands and many established brands is narrowing all the time. And with them you get better real sale value, more trustworthy warranty and a network of spare parts across the country. Anyhow thanks for the informative videos, I guess it proves to everyone that you are not sponsored by the PRC now :)
Glad you are enjoying the videos - stay tuned as more discussion on very similar (or connected) topics is coming... Novated lease is fine, as long as you change jobs from a permanent employment into another perm one, as they are transferable, no problem... Chinese don't suffer on longevity of the vehicles - it's the finer little things that don't work as well or as expected and the horrible resale value drop.
Dmitry I hope this email finds you well.
Am I right that you will not be buying a EV because although there are tax incentives it not a camping friendly vehicle. To save depreciation (or at least not be shocked) I think its safe to say Germans are out. On the Japanese front Mazda is now premium in pricing Cx60 and CX90. So that leaves Subaru Forester or Toyota Fortuner with the Fortuner better for offroad and camping. Are these the vehicles your looking at from established brands in Aus?
Very VERY good analysis mate and you're close! But I don't want to spoil the surprise reveal (soon)
@@ValueCarsAUI guess it's going to be a Kluger !
I feel like it’s an Isuzu mux
It has to be a Pajero Sport. Quite good as a daily drive, unlike some cumbersome models in the class, and also very capable when going off-road.
Thanks for making videos on vehicle goods/bads! Can I ask you why it's not good to pay with cash? Debt charges high unless you have some business to reduce tax or declare depreciation?
Good questions and I've already scheduled a video that specifically talks about Cash vs Finance vs Novated Lease. Soon mate! 😉
@@ValueCarsAUNice looking forward to that video as soon I am looking to do the same but your research and experience would help me make a better choice than doing this on my own.
Always use the banks money and never your own
Rule of thumb
Who cares about interest rates etc.
Why pull $30k cash from your savings to buy a depreciating asset
When it’s better to pay $100 per week over 5 years and use that $30k to build better wealth.
@@rc70ys lol, but you pay interest on it mate.
That's doesn't make sense , pay as much cash as possible and save on finance interest.
Hi Dimitri, i been contemplating getting a car under a noavted lease to replace my wifes ageing Kluger. The D90 keeps popping up in our budget. But ive calculated around a 45% depreciation after 2 years. Did you have a similar experience with yours?
I sold mine straight after Covid times while the market was still very much in favour of sellers, so I didn't lose much (maybe $1-$1.5k). Now things are different. But budget is budget... If D90 is all you can afford, and you need a 7 seater that you'll "drive into the ground" (rather than plan to sell after 2 years), then you're good. D90 is no Kluger though, let's be real about that part! 😉
@@ValueCarsAU Thanks for the reply. So my options are the LDV under a novated lease or a 17-19 Kluger Grande on Finance. (My Novated lease won't cover that age of vehicle) I guess I should go with the Toyota...
We are still in covid impacted market where new car supply is still very low forcing new and used values up higher and most impacted were Toyota especially Hybrid models. Newer brands always depreciate more but this is offset equally by value entry point - hence currently best to buy cheap and longer term but if can afford higher cost high demand car you won’t loose for now however when supply returns to anything near normal, which it may not as manufacturers have reduced build capacity, values for all cars will maybe reset.
Completely agree mate. Buy cheaper, solid build - like GWM - and hold long term. I WOULD have bought Tank 300 if it had larger space inside at the back, as I said in many recent videos. That is ultimately my main issue, trumping depreciation concerns and anything else.
After doing you calculations on a lease how many kilometres do you have to drive in a year to consider getting a lease over buying with cash?
I think for me lease makes sense in any case, simply due to reducing taxable income into the lower bracket, plus getting a much more expensive car I otherwise wouldn't be able to afford.
Great idea for a video so definitely looking for the next part to the video and cost breakdown involved in leasing. 👍
The difference on kilometres travelled has changed from what that used to be, many years ago the tax rate changed depending upon kms it did max out at 40000km a year which made it very good for remote travel but but less for city so the process changed and became the flat rate of 20% so it made it a much better option if you travelled closer to the average kms a year and less so if you were doing the large kms. It opened it up to a lot more people as an option
Fair enough mate 👍
Thanks mate
Although it doesn't help you now, I suppose Chinese vehicle resale value will improve over the coming years as their reputation improves. Korean and even Japanese cars were like this for a while before they gained market confidence.
And, on a positive note, the current situation means that one can buy a lightly used Chinese vehicle on the cheap!
Yes, as I said, if you want a solid vehicle to run into the ground, I'd recommend to buy something like GWM/Haval. But if you want resale value - while anything depreciates - Chinese vehicles do it much faster. This might (and hopefully will) change in 10 years.
For sure. Now it'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the Russian market, presuming sanctions aren't lifted on Japanese/European/American cars and, crucially, their repair parts. For now, it looks like Toyotas (for example) are coveted, but I wonder if this will last.
Toyota has always had an amazing resell value in my country.
Not sure if the market has fully recovered, my brother in law has been offered more for his RAV4 hybrid than what he paid for it new on a trade in.
It's because it is RAV4 Hybrid and there's a 24 month wait right now for new ones. That's why. It's not "fully recovered" as far as Toyota is concerned (they are a bit special this way lol).
I believe that by paying in cash you have reduced your losses that would have been generated from the interest on the car loan.
Yes and no, it's complex (and I'll talk about it more in the video after next one - already have 2 scheduled - stay tuned my friend)
Not that interested in EV either at this stage, though was looking at a PHEV to get the benefit of being eligible for zero fringe benefits via Novate Lease, essentially putting a PHEV like the outlander cheaper than the ICE equivalent on a fortnightly repayment. Though that said, the outlander was to small.
Am eying the Tank 300 also, as it seems solid enough at a good price point, having been a Pajero boy previously. The Pajero Sport is also no good due to the rear seat height for grown passengers.
So no TANK I gather .!?
Interesting that you thought Outlander is smaller than the Tank 300 in your opinion - I haven't measured both, but optically the new Outlander seems larger (inside) than Tank... No, no Tank 300 for me at the moment. Maybe AFTER this upcoming novated lease expires AND GWM comes up with the next generation of Tank 300 where they'd fix the annoying ELK and Blinkers... Then we'll talk! 😉👌
Talking leg room, especially the feet can’t even go under the front seat, at least on PHEV model, also head room compared to Tank at least with sunroof. Plus overall view our windows makes tank seem more spacious. Agree Outlander seems large on outside, though seems most of space is under the bonnet, disappointed in all areas coming from CRV 2018 model space leg, shoulder, head in all seats plus cargo and visibility. Noting the new release CRV also seems smaller at least tighter on the interior.
I was thinking the same. However, i know we would rarely go camping and it's a waste of money. I'm going to buy a cheap Chinese EV through novated lease for daily commute and rent a Prado or a Patrol if we ever go camping again. Tired of camping to be honest. Also, Chinese EV novated lease is the most economical option and too tempting lol
Fair enough and very logical too! 😉
By looking at statistics, average age of passenger cars in China is 5 years as of 2022, while average age of passenger cars in US is 12 years.
For domestic Chinese branded cars within China is about 3 years. I know many many people in China, people there don’t favor domestic brands. Despite the look, tech and price are greatly favored over foreign brands, domestic brands just won’t last as long. Hopefully it is not the case in Australia. But Chinese cars look and feel a lot high tech than say, Toyota, with the cheaper prices, drive them for 3 to 5 years should be pretty worthwhile. Hoping to drive them for 7 to 10 years are a bit stretched, as people in China can’t even achieve that.
With that said, there are several Chinese brands are well made and high quality, but they are not yet available outside China. For example, HongQi (Chinese version of RR), DongFeng (great reliable truck), BeiJing Jipu (Jeep) which are real Jeep clones.
Thanks for the insights mate, always appreciated. Yes, speculation on the longevity of a vehicle of any brand and in any country becomes a bit of a hard to pin-point stretch for sure.
Don't forget if you novate lase you don't pay the GST on the purchase, ching...ching. I got my H6 through a novated lease (5 years). Residual is very low and it will still have 2 years warranty. And yes I intend to drive it into the ground or pass it on to my kids if I go into the ground first 🙂
I wonder mate if they take GST off if I've pre-arranged the vehicle at the dealer and paid a deposit for it? I.e. I reserved the car, organising a novated lease (right now). Say, it goes through as I expect it to, and they request an invoice to pay, etc etc. Would then the dealership take GST off the originally quoted (to me) price?
Utility plays a BIG part. A UTE would not depreciate as much due to its utilitarian use.
I don't disagree. It just doesn't fit into my personal uses, but it doesn't make the vehicle choice bad
I'd that really the truth though or just a verbatim talking point? For example, in my experience, Lexus RX will cost equally the same as a Prado/top spec Hilux to buy new and also after 15 years and 150k miles.
Do you think so? Have you seen how much Great Wall V240 is worth? You'd get more for 30 Year old Hilux with half a million kilometres on it.
You lose the most on the first year when buying a car it's that simple! It's not wise to buy and sell a car in one year! I think the optimum is 3 to 5 years if you like to always have a new ish car with a warranty and then sell with some warranty remaining that always helps with resale.
Agreed, Kylie, not smart at all! 🤣🤷♀️ Higher depreciation of a Chinese car vs a more established brand is a sad fact though, as so is the purchase with cash vs. some other methods I'll talk about in great detail in the next video.
I understand your feelings but I'm not sure you understand the market. The standard price for a H6 Lux is $35990 and that is without discounts. Extras you may have purchased to push it to $38990 will not add to its value. I suspect you paid a premium to get out of you LDV . Buying and reselling within a year regardless of brand is also going to be painful. Buying a new Jeep will give you a double hit depreciation very poor reliability and poor service. I understand your pain but it's mostly self inflicted
Thanks mate, thoughtful and appreciated comment from a person who clearly understands both my situation and what they are talking about. Yes it's self inflicted and yes any car would lose in value over the first year of ownership. Unless it's Toyota 🤣 whether you like it or not mate, I spoke to people, it's still a bit crazy... Anyway. Not saying I'm set in my choice but I think it's now about this final pivot with a loss, but into something that won't set me up for a similar disappointment.
sounds like youve given up on the cheap cars I gonna miss your gwm content.
Not really, I just won't own a GWM myself 🤷
I agree 26.3% depreciation in one year is a lot. However, I think if you kept that car for say 4 years, it would have been much more palatable. I agree it is not a value proposition to buy a Chinese SUV and keep it only for 12 months. I have heard that it is a different proposition if you buy a Chinese EV where depreciation is better and demand for 2nd hand vehicles is fairly robust.
I've definitely shot myself in the foot selling the car 1 year into ownership, that's for sure, but say with Toyota the price wouldn't have moved. At all. Sadly, it's a fact that I've checked and will be talking about in an upcoming video soon....
That's if you could have bought the Toyota you wanted :) You may have had to wait 12 months (or more, as my daughter did, RAV 4 Hybrid Cruiser) for that same vehicle @@ValueCarsAU . It's all relative depending on the market you are buying or selling into, I never buy new (always 1-2 years old with low kms). I prefer others wear the initial depreciation, only because I don't want to.
Retired and got a tank 300 on order.
Going to pay cash and tend to drive it many years.
Will get rid of it if it highly disappoints within a year.
Indeed , feels like I’m taking a gamble !
The waiting time for a Japanese car is one of the things that pushed me toward the tank.
Hope I’m not shooting myself in the foot with this purchase.
I don't think you have shoot yourself in the foot mate.
Given your situation, the fact that you have cash and plan to drive it for a long time, I'm almost jealous! 🤣👌
GWM are solid vehicles. It's hard for us to tell exactly, but the car is on warranty, and the Russian disassembly videos showed us that those T300 are rather solid.
Yeah did watch the Russian guy ripping the car down video at least 4 times ;-))
The thing that actually convinced me to purchase the car is indeed the warranty period.
Now the dealership is trying to sell me the add ons like titanium Kinetic paint protection ?!? solar guard window tint , interior protection and what not ! I
Not falling for it , the only thing I’ll get installed is a kill switch, that’s it.
Man, I was going to buy H6 and now I am in trouble 🤕
If I take Haval H6 Ultra AWD now, it will cost me ~$41k.
If I go with more recognised brands (let's say KIA Sportage - medium size SUV like H6), to get kind of similar things I would need to go to GT-Line Petrol DCT AWD line and pay $~54.300
In 3 years time Haval may lose how much? 50%? If it is 50% then I would be able to recover $20.5k so I would have $20.5k back in pocket.
If I take Kia, I would be able to sell it for 65% (??) from its initial price and get ~$35k back in pocket.
However to purchase Kia I did spend an extra $13.3k initially so the real outcome is 35-13.3 = $21.7k. Just $1k difference from if I got H6 right from the beginning.
(or even less because I would have to pay more premium on a bigger loan to get Kia)
Now my speculation is based on those depreciation numbers I got from carsales site by checking a few different ads there and comparing their prices with Kia official latest price.
It was around 60%-65% for Kia Sportage 2020 cars so my math seems to be Ok here?
The only thing I could miscalculate here is depreciation factor for H6. But it can't cost just five or ten thousands for 3 years old car if it is still drievable, fit for purpose, looks good and has a few years manufaturers warranty!!! Or it can??
Am I wrong here?🤔
I think it's all speculative as we don't know how the brands will be trending in terms of their depreciation rates, but it's safe to assume that with a more established brand you're much better off if you're planning to sell it sooner than a less established one. Like, KIA would sell for a lot more 1 year later, while 5 years down the track they'll prob even out in terms of how much you spent on them - upfront, and as a "saving" on depreciation. While Haval you'd get cheaper upfront but lose a lot more on if you sold it like I did - 1 year later, yet again. So as I said, I'd recommend less recognized (including specifically Chinese) brands to those who plan to drive those cars into the ground and who don't want to spend more (sometimes a lot more) upfront.
Hello i inquired about a novated lease for Rav 4 hybrid cruiser $60000. $758 a fortnight with out of pocket $640 fortnightly. Residual amount $16702. So my total cost over 5 years is (640×120) $76800 + residual = $93502 total cost extra over 5 years $33502.
If i keepd $60 k in bank with 5% its 3000 a year in interest. So lease is still more then paying cash over 5 year term.
Also lease covers insurance maintenance and fuel. So about another $12000. Roughly over 5 years.
Not sure about what leasing company you've used, what inclusions were in your package, etc, but I'm ordering a car costing roughly the same amount and the numbers are different. Yes of course it costs more over 5 years, but not THAT much more (by my calculations anyway). I'm putting cash from the H6 sale into my mortgage that's going to contribute to offsetting around 6% interest rates, plus as you said - the reduction in my taxable income is where I'll have the biggest annual benefit, which I'll see and make conclusions on at the end of next financial year - too early to tell. In any case, residual value of a sale at the end of 5 years + these extra tax benefits make it worth it in my view.
Whats wrong with paying cash?
Nothing. Go pay with cash.
$10k loss is it a trade in price sir?
Trade in is around 26, which is 12k loss
Hi Dimitri, when I was looking into trading my lux model in I was only quoted $25k for a trade in. My car engine actually is gone, they tried to get me a new engine and now I’m asking for a new car. It’s a 2021 model.
Wow the whole engine is gone in a 2021 model? What happened to it mate? How can it be "gone" so quickly? and if your engine is busted, that's probably a fair price for a trade in as GWM quoted me lower than that... I've traded in at a different place - will post a video about it soon.
The car was fine when I tried to trade it in. I've only ever serviced it at the GWM dealerships in Melbourne and started having issues with the engine light coming up. Changed the Throttle Sensor twice as per the dealerships advice but still not fixed, Eventually the engine just stopped and they found metal particles in the engine oil. So basically gone and need a new engine, in the process of getting a new replacement car.
@@ValueCarsAU
Also, been without the car for two months. Have been given a loan car in the meantime. I would say to anyone go with the well known brands, not bashing the Chinese cars but from my experience the established brands are the best.
I’ve seen your FB add and you’ve priced the H6 a little on the high side.
I think you have a strong chance of selling it but you’re competing with the likes of H6 Vanta etc which are priced similarly to yours.
Trade in no doubt you’ve checked with your mates at Suttons Chullora would offer no more than $20-$22k max as trade in
Food for thought mate. GLWS I think personally Chinese vehicles loose value very quickly over brand names like Toyota etc.
irrespective of the amazing features and Tech of Chinese vehicles it’s quality over quantity.
As far as your run it into the ground comment that agree with
That’s what I believe these vehicles are really only good for.
😊
I've checked with them and got similar trade-in figures, it's hard market for everyone... I have higher trade-in offers, believe it or not. Will keep you all updated soon on what happens.
Have a serious look at a notated lease on a electric vehicle you will safe thousands due to weekly payments are from your pre tax salary
It's worth investigating
You never own the car lease is rented correct?
Lol yeah I think you're a bit off on numbers there mate. Government is subsidising EVs because it fits into their infrastructure plan. It might be a bit cheaper to lease than what I have in mind, but no EV faith for me for the next 10 years at least.
Not going to drive more than 500 to 600 kms in a day . Even if you do you can always charge it to full overnight at home. So practically speaking your fear is not practical. Even if you plan on going cross country once in a while still you can use your wife's ICE car for those trips and keep an electric car for yourself. I'm seriously considering the 2024 tesla highland. I wish you consider it too. The recently announced pricing of byd seal is also tempting enough considering the features. The resale value of tesla is very good and byd resale value again questionable.
will you own the car or just rent it sir?
Don't buy new if your looking for a asset.
It's a lot more complex than your comment implies
You make feel regret. Im picking up tank300 soon , brand new . Planning on keeping it for 5-10 years. Have I made a big mistake?
I wouldn't feel regret at all, especially if Tank 300 fits into your lifestyle and you're planning to keep it for 5+ years. It's an amazing vehicle (if you're ok with its weird blinkers! 😉). What I talk about in this video is different - as we focus on reselling (and losing value then).
Cheers.
But look at my comment below. It's just how it is in regards to resale value ,unless you by 79 series toyota. Most of the cars lose value rapidly in the first two years , don't get upset about it.
Just need to do research before you buy and anticipate what your needs will be for the next 5 years or so. I bought rav 4 and thought I could drive it on the beach every now and then a few years ago. 😂 lesson learned.
You're considering buying a Jeep in Australia ??
Are you addicted to unreliable cars with terrible after sales support ?? LoL
Congrats on the second idiotic comment in one week, well done
please don't buy a Jeep 🙏 Becareful of Novated Leases interest rates are high and unless you work in medical or non profit difficult to get full benefit - Cash is always king as you are not paying interest - good luck - sometimes hiring a camping ready vehicle for when you need it is the best outcome
Lol no I'm not buying a jeep mate. And yeah cash might be king but when you add taxation brackets and putting this cash against mortgage instead, the picture isn't as clear of which way is best.