The SEMI BLUFF - Old School VS New School Poker Analysis Episode 9
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2021
- Welcome back to Episode 9 of the Old School VS New School Analysis series. This week we're looking at a hand from the Poker Masters where I play a massive pot with a hand I probably wouldn't even play today.
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I love watching you play. I even served you once at a Olive Garden in Las Vegas before 2008.
Your food was a bit long. You asked if I forgot to put your order in. I told you no, then I could tell you were trying to read me. Then your food came out, I went in the back. I told the staff about what happened . They all laughed and told me , you can't bluff him. I witness your gaze first hand. And for the first time really appreciated your skill.
Good thing I wasn't bluffing, and for those of you wondering if he left a good tip, he did.
As good and fun as your WSOP vlogs are, these vids are your best content by leaps and bounds.
Daniel I've been playing poker for the last 15 years and I have to say this series is some of the top poker content out there atm! Nice one!
Dnegs played poker over 20 year.
I think it is super cool the way that you were willing to come and see poker another way. It would have been very easy to have thought, "I'm a top poker pro, there is no reason for me to go and learn anything new about the game."
Being willing to learn reflects a deep humility that I really respect.
I agree but I think he’s a little too arrogant to say the new school is “better”x
@@user-iu4uk2ty5e How many of those old school guys do you see having success at at the highest levels of the game? Not many, and it's only those who learned the new ways, which are almost inarguably better. That's why everyone changed!
I feel like checking on the turn is so strong and gives away unnecessary information , i love that bet on the turn! It keeps him in the pot and doesnt give away your hand strength, definitely helped that you connected on the river also 🤣🤣
I love how humble Daniel is
A good Old skool v New skool idea that id watch is you vs Hellmuth across all three games.
I know imagine his video if he won.
@commenter you sound like a conservative Boomer, am I right? You know, the old school is getting crushed these days, with exceptions from time to time. For those willing to change and grow, they will have to deal with the growing pains that go with it. Others pride themselves on ignorance and inflexibility. You can only really wish them good luck.
@commenter I mean, I get you. I think the new school depth of understanding with talent in the old school is the best of both worlds. A lot of things these days are becoming exponentially more specialized, and I'd say a lot of it is for the best (though scary for us older people). Take coffee, for instance. Compare old school Folgers from a coffee machine to the technical wizardry of today's specialty coffee roasters.There's no contest, and you can literally taste the difference (I just ruined a friend of mine's life by explaining new school coffee brewing to her, and making her a cup). New school music teachers can easily elevate young students to be masters of their instruments in no time at all, as opposed to the old school rare talent that died of a cocaine overdose at 35. But then photography seems to have become too formulaic and cliche, in my opinion. Show up at X spot at such and such time with X equipment. Use X settings and Y2 filter, and you'll get Z result. There should be some struggle and calculation in photography. A photographer should have the old school grit, sense of adventure, and diligence. Poker is a bit of a mix, but New School = drinking the Kool-aid is quite an over bet. When I switched from old school trumpet playing to new school, I sounded like crap for a month or two until it snapped into place, but then I could play anything with ease. By the way, from your response, I would guess I read you correctly as a Conservative Boomer, so....all in! Haha! Have a nice day, good sir.
Really enjoying these old school new school analysis videos. The problem most of us have is we play low limit games and down there people don't play like their "supposed" to. But I think there is still value in learning these concepts.
Thanks for posting!
Aye, especially when playing on one of the poker apps. People be playing shit hands that somehow hit. Feel like Hellmuth. >>
Wow, I just watched another example of you playing Q10 against Eli Elezra on Poker After Dark s9. Another great semibluff to a winning river card! Thanks for sharing your mastery and thought process with the community, Daniel, we see you playing for the Player AND Builder roles and we appreciate it. One last thing about this hand you're analyzing - I think my favorite part is seeing Phil Hellmuth's quiet expression as he watched that hand play out..
I really like these old/new videos. Please keep them up.
Haven't played any serious poker in years, but I love these break downs.
I love this video! Great! Thanks Daniel!
thanks for epic breakdown, also sick tshirt!
Amazing breakdown.
Great video. Looking forward to the wsop streams!
i like ur videos bmecause of loosie goosey! thank u so much! u make me so happy man
At 2:14, king of clubs becomes king of spades. Weird.
Anyway, I’m really enjoying these videos!
After watching these pro youtube videos, they often point out how the graphics are off pretty often.
I thought I was going insane. Thank you.
it was a F up on the poker show 🤣
The graphics are entered manually, it's a human error that gets corrected when the next street come off. Notice that Daniel doesn't mention any backdoor flush draw either.
Those that choose to adapt to change thrive the greatest in the long run. Daniel you will always be one of the best
True, but I didn't want to adapt. While I can appreciate GTO from a theoretical/mathematical perspective it also killed my enjoyment of the game. I'll just stick with robbing my friends occasionally for the odd $10 bucks in home games :)
Does your 3betting sizing in this spot depend more on your stack sizes or how much the blinds are?
Great Video. I wish you would do video "Old School Vs New School" with Jonathan Little.
I would love a in-depth video on why showing a card or cards in specific spots are a bad thing.
I've been really playing poker for the last year in live tournaments and I've been doing a mixed approach in key spots to let the table know your change in style and to allow them to perceive you in specific ways.
I've felt this actually has helped me in multiple tournaments and spots even though time and time again pros say to never show.
genuine humility, and normal hair. FANTASTIC!
Great video DNegs and team
I’ve always enjoyed watching poker tournaments and games you are a part of because you keep things entertaining with your table talk. I’m also a subscriber.
I was rooting for Helmuth to beat you in the Duel. You went into it with such an arrogant attitude. Maybe some of that was the “pre-fight hype” but you helped make Helmuth the likable underdog. Quite an accomplishment.
I still think you are awesome, and really enjoyed watching the Duel.
great lesson. Teacher
To play this hand perfectly you should bet bigger on the turn in order to get the geometric all in size on the river.b
I want to see Phil Hellmuth and Negreanu have an odd couple YT channel.
It takes balls to look at a spectacular win of yours and say "nah, that's just not good enough to be relied upon". What a winning attitude that is !
@commenter The real benefit of using any "school" of thinking is that you're thinking. The intellectual gymnastics helps reduce the emotion, the tilt, the seat of the pants ego plays. It isn't as important for the thinking to be "right", as it is simply right to be thinking.
@commenter Great comment. There is a video here on TH-cam in which Hellmuth discusses the third match. His reasoning for a lot of his big moves and calls were along the lines of I just felt Daniel was weak, or I just felt he was strong. He called a huge all in bet correctly with AQ because "I felt something was wrong when Daniel bet" or words to that effect. I don't remember him mentioning ranges, blockers, or combinations once. And when you watch the play, it is obvious Phil is confident and in control and Daniel is thoroughly confused, because Phil is making plays he is not supposed to be making with ranges he is not supposed to be using.
@commenter You present some good points. One thing Daniel said early on in his showdown with Hellmuth was that playing GTO helps you exploit your opponent. This is not correct. The purpose of playing GTO, which includes bluffing sometimes, is to AVOID getting exploited over the long haul. Thus, like you, I don't know if Daniel fully understands GTO. I don't know how playing new school compares to old school, at least as played by Daniel, but I think Daniel changed his style because the success of his old school style was diminishing. Unlike you, though, I tend to believe in the new school way of thought. Problem, though, is that the solvers break down the more players and variables you add to a situation.
@commenter Sure, the solver's accuracy is dependent on the inputted variables. But even if you're not using a solver, you're mentally putting your opponents on a range of hands as well and playing accordingly. The solver runs lots of simulations and spits out the bets/moves you should make based and with which frequencies. No one says that the solver is perfect just that it allows you play "optimally."
not doing that completely goes against everything in poker. literally the most essential thing for any poker play lol
Can you do a video on downbetting flops like this? I always thought you're supposed to charge draws like this.
0-3 vs helmuth says what
Great video. Love that you are doing this. The game has changed in the last 6 years or so, and if you don't get on the train you're gonna fall behind.
Dnegs, huge fan. The fact that you’re the goat, and you still try to get better is a huge inspiration. This was your best old school vs new school episode yet! Loved your analysis here . I took things away that I can use on the felt for sure.
He is not the goat lmao
@@dogperson432 definitely in the conversation. He is 3rd on the all time money list. He may not be the goat with heads up no limit hold’em, but as an overall poker professional, he is up there. You cannot play at his level for as long as he has without being in the conversation. Just look at him from a live tournament pro prospective, who is better? Any name you come up with has not proven themselves for as long as dengs has.
I do like your attitude 😏 on the of video
Best if the best advice to everyone
Thank you Daniel
Aldemir should’ve raised with middle set ! When you bet the flop etc. ! Then on the river he goes all in means he misplayed the hand he was dealt and dnegs got lucky ! Yahoo for you ! Also new school says check the draw to get there for cheap if he had played his monster properly etc. Would you call an all in on the turn. Most likely no per recent play
what are your thoughts on losing all three times vs Phil Hellmuth?
I guess that putting Phil hellmut in the image give us a message
I am waiting for it too. I have checked everywhere, twitter , TH-cam etc. Seems like Daniel didn’t mention anything related to the loss and is acting like that it didn’t happen.
I want try mid school ,mix both
8:41 Dneg, your reasoning is good but you dont block JT because V only has JTs and your T is of the same suit as the J on the board.
@@RodJeez the only combo of JTs Dneg would block is JTcc. The board blocks that combo already.
Time to get in the lab, HARDCORE
Did you take off your hat and congratulate Phil after 3-0? What did you learn from him and what will you take with you moving forward? Because like Sontheimer, Phil crushed you to!
From samays stream😋
lol why does the king change from a club to a spade at 7:40
Interesting thing in this analysis boa that DN isn't recognizing that his initial hand selection from that position IS THE COUNTER to the "New School" play. At the end of the day, agreed that this hand suited should probably be played here like this sparingly, especially in cash games (just gonna go broke over long haul with all Q10 combos), but here as a blind defense it's an adequate selection. At the end of the day, pretty aggressive play (stacks are deep) and Yhatzee on the river, but the set of jacks does allow you to name your own price. This New School player simply miscalculated your range according to your analysis. So, good way to initially approach the game, but no reason to put your whole stack at risk with the possibility of a straight. All in all, New School offers a solid approach, but this player gets totally owned but underestimating his opponent and lacking the insight to pick a better spot, especially early to middle of tournament. Old age and treachery wins the day once again!
Will u be going over your game 3 vs hellmuth?
Can we get the GG poker online Vlogs back?!!!! Those were amazing!!
"Old man D" 😂😂😂
You ain't old, your beard's still got color😂😂😂😂
New year new chances gratidão love piece prosperite thanks master Daniel I really hope Knows you soon Iove you brother
Statistical analysis is great. But I still have better luck when I know Im beat. Do I need stats and math? Yes. But at the end of the day, you gotta know where youre at. No math changes real life play outs
Salutari din Romania
can u do the hand against esfandiari where he folds st.flush.......board was A2354 all spades . we couldn't see ur cards so i have guess of ur holdings,,,,,,,,,,,,,i have a bet with my friend. FYI....if u need the hand video i can send it to u......tnx
Dnegs - Why did you at the end of the video (around 14:00) refer to the new school approach as "non-sense"?
daniel vs hellmuth !! I love poker but don't care when these two are heads up-- it fucking GOLD
Daniel make the screen of the game big and the screen of you small so we can see the game better
Wait... How did that K change suit from clubs to spades? 😅
I started to understand your point in terms of GTO you were supposed to lose that particular hand. You won got lucky but poker is not about the end result if you are playing thousands of hands
I started to learn and love the math side of this game better
Thanks for explaining
And his name is Koray Aldemir Turkish like myself 😍😍
Yeah you're righht it's not about just 1 hand it's about the hole game and the results
"Daniel, you're one of the best players in the world and I mean that." - "Thanks that means a lot. The $50 million in my bank account means more... but that means a lot."
I wonder if your play is influenced by how you think your opponent is playing. Does your new school thought process change if you know you've got an old school thinking opponent? Vice versa?
Daniel you are awesome your candid opinions and honest views are what will always separate you from the rest,thanks
I guess since you are not supposed to hit that flop very much, him calling the bet makes sense. I still wonder why he thinks you are going to call his all in? Are you going to call him with AA, AK or some other value hand he beats? That feels a bit thin though I guess I can understand him trying to squeeze extra value with his set
Yeah the shove feels pretty dumb on the river there
Old school got 6 in a row tho lol
his new school analysis doesn't beat phil's old school
Are you still confident that you are better at HU than Hellmuth?
Even though i am more interested in knowing if Hellmuth said: "he 3 bet with Queen Ten Hon"
@@RodJeez haha true. Negreanu is still a decent new school online grinder, but his talent was always with his reads and table play. Now he’s too mathematical and doesn’t use his talent !
just curious what is the algo on GGpoker that river fucks me every time?
Plzz collab with Pokerstars India..... many Indian fans are waiting
I think he should have 3 bet the flop as sets, doubles and gutshots + backdoor flush should be his 3 betting range. The 3 bet makes sense because Daniel has the nuts advantege but aldemir has a lot of openendeds gutshots etc. As Daniel has nuts advantage he should bet this flop with most of his range in a 3 bet flop to punish Ax high and underpairs, so I think its an ev+ spot to 3 bet in aldemir position with that holding. The call in the turn is correct, no reason to 3 bet
Also, you talk about blockers at 8:40 point, but earlier you said what 16 combos of queen ten...its extremely similar to the blockers...so many combos of those as well...its pure speculatory logical nonsense as I say...meaning, so much thought going into the possible hands that often, players spit out nonsense just to make them sound intelligent.
The problem with playing the new school way is unless you're playing in the games that Daniel is playin in the people you're playing are not playing the new school way there might be one or two at your table but that's it.
Yeah, I'm not a great poker player, but this is kind of an advanced version of what happens when I play with new players. They bet huge with nothing or they fold quads and it can screw up your analysis techniques.
I'd disagree and say in most online environments people are mostly playing new school pre flop ranges
@@ThePodgeiscool yea but that’s just online , is not the same as real poker
Sorry Daniel for ur hockey team, I’m from Montreal 😉
What if that river didn’t hit. What would you do?
Presumably fold when Aldemir goes all in
You didn’t really give too much analysis on this 😆 just that you liked the sizes lol
Aldemire should have raised the flop, to build the pot and get some info on Negreanu, to determine if had AA, KK, or AK. The same is true on the Turn. This has little to do with Old or New school. I think Aldemire played his hand poorly.
I believe Daniel covered why Aldemire doesn't.
@@patnickle6959 Daniel says "If he makes a small raise On the flop, I will call"....Why would Aldemire make a small raise on the flop that would not give him any info? So, If Aldemire had made a good size raise on the flop, most likely the hand would have been over. And by the time the turn comes, Aldemire has little data about Daniel's hand, and decides just to call.....
@@theowl3756 I believe that's probably because Aldemire is an excellent enough player that betting to get info isn't really a thing. He doesn't really care if Daniel has AA KK or AK, since he's ahead of those hands with an opponent leading into him. Daniel touched on this as well that a lot the hands he would take this line for value are drawing dead.
In hindsight, sure raising looks to make sense the way the hand played out, but I don't think with the information he had that calling is strictly the mistake that you're making it out to be.
Is it possible that all this new focus on combos and blockers and ranges has hurt his game? He always read players incredibly well just on instinct, and usually made the right play on instinct and by trusting his great reading ability. In that third match with Hellmuth, he looked lost most of the time, never really sure what Phil was doing or where he was in the hand. He got really lucky a time or two to not get knocked out much sooner..
Spot on. He’s still a decent online player, but this theory bs has changed him from the best live player of all time to an average one at best.
Isn't choosing games also a trick to winning? I seriously don't understand why would you accept challenge from doug and play deep stack heads up with him? (Where he is super comfortable) Then play tournament heads up with phill helmuth where he is super comfortable.
Why can't you negotiate them to play in a scenario where you are comfortable?
You should play deep stack with Helmuth and live tourney style with doug and recover your money.
Pls collab with samay raina he loves you ...... ❤❤❤❤❤
Samay will have to send the req to DNegs for that to happen.
@@bhardwaj_abhiwaah re india ..
good to see you finally realizing the importance of learning. I remember when you were talking shit about blockers saying people were making way too big a deal about blockers and they weren't that significant. Imagine where you'd be today if you embraced it sooner.
Still down 0-3 probably
@@dogperson432 0-3 doesn't mean shit. That's why Phil is so afraid to play Daniel at 25K hands or any other meaningful sample size. Daniel would destroy Phil at any skillful format
@@ribletroblet lmao literally no amount of evidence would ever convince you people to change your minds
@@ribletroblet they said Daniel would destroy Phil in the 0-3 format. In fact, Daniel said it too.
@@dogperson432 why is it so hard for people to understand variance? it's fucking ridiculous. Yes I would change my mind if they actually played a meaningful format that was long enough for skill to prevail. If they played 50K - 100K hands with blinds that are stable Phil would have no where to hide and Daniel's skill edge would show. Hellmuth knows this, that's why he will never do it. He doesn't want to tarnish his legacy
Here you go again, "its not supposed to be in your range"...thats the problem with ranges..is that it severely narrows down what a player could or should have...and makes it easier to play...in this situation, your opponent "was not supposed" to put you on Q10, but you played it and look what happened. Ranges, although important are way overblown.... If I can keep my opponent guessing what I have, I have a massive leg up on him/her...and, If I can guess based on ranges what you are "supposed" to have...I have another leg up... Imagine, you bust a guy and "i played that wrong" .lol
Old school Daniel wouldn't have lost 3 straight to Phil Hellmuth. We want soul reader Daniel not GTL Daniel.
There's no way to know that. I haven't followed their matches super closely but unless they're playing a huge number of hands over a really long period then variance is going to be the biggest factor in the outcome.
Shouldn't be truth but i guess almost everyone rather that Daniel
That's just nonsense. New school Daniel has way higher EV against Phil. And that is the only thing that matters.
You gto guys are so dogmatic. Have you considered that there is no possible evidence anyone can come up with that can change your mind?
@@dogperson432 Yeah GTO is mathematical in nature. Solutions can be known like pythagora's theorem is known. If you want to give evidence against GTO solutions, you can prove (using computer science and math) that GTO solvers don't converge to the Nash Equilibrium. That would not disprove GTO as a concept (the existence of a Nash Equilibrium for zero sum games is proven to exist by Nash himself) but it would prove that solvers aren't reliable tools.
So if you do that, then we can talk. However I'm pretty darn sure that solvers converge exactly on the Nash Equilibrium. But belief in GTO isn't dogmatic.
Also, if your opponent plays badly, then the optimal strategy changes. This can be modelled in solvers with nodelocking. But if you don't know what *is* optimal then how can you ever make effective exploits?
you got smoked bro, where is your apology vid?
I love you captain my mestre, thanks for all comentario 202 2mil likes all for be alive playing pokeer GG Stars World
Pocket 8's would be a combo value for you wouldn't they? I'm guessing you would 3 bet them at least some of the time.
Yes, but I don't think that it changes anything really. It's in a similar position to AA, because there's only a single out.
Hey Daniel, when are you going to make a video recognizing what a legend Phil Hellmuth is? And how he absolutely destroyed you.
You really need to come out and apologize to the king 👑
Why do you want to bluff wirh hands that are in the bottom of your range?
man its a KJ of clubs on flop and on another pic its a K of spades and J of clubs so? WTF :D
I think you need a better term for blocker. Like 'restricter' - no, it doesn't roll off the tongue but more accurate. As far as the hand what would you have done if he shoved after the turn, like he should have? He hit trips and let you hang around until the river. He got greedy and you got lucky.
More like limiter
I just don't get Villain's shove at the end there. What does it accomplish? Aren't you just folding out weaker hands that you easily beat and letting the bone-crushers dominate you? Some might say "well you need to be balanced". Ok so what really weak part of your range would you shove here? A random K or J? But in that case what are you folding out exactly? Most of the strong part of his range are hands like a set of Js, Ks or exactly Q 10. Those are REALLY hard to fold so you would be relying on your opponent playing like a God. And his weaker range would be sort of like the hands you're bluffing with.
I guess if the solvers say you should bet X amount of your pure air hands then maybe that could be the balance but it does seem -ev to me.
He could have thought you had KK
I say you are the best. I would love to sit down at a table with you. Maybe some day
NO MERCY
I don't understand why he pushed on the river. You only get called with better hands in that specific spot. Was dumb of him tbh.
I mean of course that guy is way better than me, but I don't like his river shove at all. There are not that many hands that call the shove which he beats imo.
Right. If that's new school poker, I'm sticking with old school.
“You have two choices. You can be like I’m the best I have nothing to learn [phil hellmuth]” or you can be Daniel N.
Hellmuth never said he has nothing to learn. In fact he says he's eager to learn everywhere he can. Get that fake shit outta here
I think he should have known you only semi bluff.
Nobody folds a Queen.
The problem i have with playing new school is everyone I seem to go against plays old school so I end up like the set of jacks there, stacked every time
The new school says not to do that with Q-T though
@@dogperson432 right, I didn't mean just this scenario. In general. People end up with hands they shouldn't have 95% of the time based off ranges, position, spr etc
Aldemir kind of fucked up. If he is value betting and wants a call given his assumptions about dneg's range, then what would dneg call with in that range against a shove that Aldemir actually beats?
You still playing chess?
I don’t understand why everyone is giving Daniel such a hard time about his one on one game against Hellmuth. The last hand Daniel lost with a lower straight. How many times are you gonna fold when you have a straight. you’re gonna fold cuz you think the other guy has 10 6 offsuit ?
7 combos beat him really GTO..
KK
QT S
K
D
C
Versus all your value heavy hands you have AA, , JJ, AK, KQ, KJ hearts, 32 combos without the draws v 7, snap jam no idea how many draws he missed that 3-bet but talking 35 min v 7!!!
Does anyone else hate having to see the name TRUMP in the background over Daniel's shoulder? Ugh!
LOL 🤣
Best president in the history of these United States. Trump 2020, Trump 2024
@@christianduarte25
LMAO 🤣😂🤣
Good one!
I can beat Negrenau.
Shirt is too small n tight. Kinda like your range.
Wow im early