A detail I like about Dutch is his clothes. He might wear more expensive clothing (velvet coat and waistcoat?!! Dang!) but upon close inspection you can see that these clothes are worn, threadbare in places, stained and have holes. He's pretending at luxuary like he's pretending at compassion and nobility. It's a nice hint to his character.
He’s a lot like those old cartoons where you see a swindling fox who wears a top hat and waist coat but the top hat has a hole in the top & the waistcoat is patchy & missing buttons. Good observation btw
Dutch and High Honor Arthur’s last moments together always stick with me, years after the games release. In his last moments, despite everything that Dutch had put him through, despite the fact that Dutch had left Arthur to die more than once, Arthur still loved him in a way. Instead of lamenting how he could fall so far, the last thing Arthur does is try to warn Dutch that Micah is a traitor, and tells him how he gave him everything. It’s probably the only time during the whole game we see Arthur so close to tears, and it very clearly strikes a major cord with Dutch. For the first time in the whole game, this man known for his grandiose speeches, has absolutely nothing to say, and almost appears utterly heartbroken. His friend, someone he effectively considers his surrogate son, and someone he knows that he’s hurt so much is lying before him dying, and he’s still attempting to protect him. And in that moment it’s like the reality of everything that Dutch had done just seems to rush in. All the lives he took, all the people he had lost, all of it has lead to this moment. The gang is destroyed, the closest thing he has to family is dead, and he is responsible. I think out of all the loss that Dutch experienced, Arthur’s death hit him the hardest, not just because of the fact that he lost someone he considered a son, but also because to Dutch, Arthur was everything that Dutch hoped to see in his perfect utopia. Arthur’s death signifies that the time for outlaws had passed, and that knowledge, along with the fact that Dutch had as good as killed Arthur himself, was something he likely thought of everyday till the day he died.
The other time Arthur cried was when he told the nun he was afraid of dying and he talks about his son and wife who died it's the most heartbreaking scene I've ever seen
Dutch absolutely loved Arthur and John in the time we see before the game and even into it but events that transpired absolutely twisted the man into a shadow of who he was. Look at him in Red Dead Redemption 1. He's an absolute shell of a human, even by his own estimation.
The actor who played Dutch Benjamin Byron Davis said after he acted the scene where he has to leave Arthur (they all acted it out on a big stage for motion capture) he left the stage and cried his eyes out as Micah and Arthur continue their bits. I like to think that's an extension of Dutch's character and that he did the same in the story.
Dutch is more than anything a raging narcissist. There is a random camp encounter where Uncle calls him out on wanting to be "An American king, with the gang as his court and knights." And even though this happens fairly early in the game, Dutch immediately drops his facade, lowers his voice and basically threatens to kill Uncle. And I think that's because Uncle accidentally struck right into the core of Dutch's lies. He wants freedom, but only for himself. Of others he wants unquestioning loyalty. For himself, he wants sovereignty. You can see this in how Dutch expects to treat with powerful people as equals and breaks down when they refuse to entertain the notion. Bronte's betrayal stings him particularly harshly because it makes it clear that to Bronte, Dutch is merely a nuisance, a ridiculous hillbilly who doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Before agent Milton kills Hosea, Dutch is still confidently trying to negotiate a deal with him and is completely shocked when the agent refuses. Same with Leviticus Cornwall, Dutch only kills him after he treats him with contempt and refuses to make a deal with him as an equal. Dutch despises the leaders of modern society but absolutely loses it if they despise him back. He craves their respect and that's why he keeps trying to cause more and more mayhem and make a bigger splash. He cannot stand a society where he is irrelevant and when society inevitably moves in that direction, he responds by descending into full blown violent madness.
The best part about that particular interaction between Dutch and Uncle is how it concludes with Uncle defusing the situation with a backhanded joke that Dutch is forced to laugh at because he can't actually kill Uncle without completely destroying his cultivated image with the rest of the gang.
I think the reason he killed bronte and Cornwall in a brutal manner was because Dutch knew they were more superior than him and he saw them as a threat because of the power they hold. Because of this he couldn’t reason with them and couldn’t get in their heads compared to how he did with colm who is someone inferior to Dutch. So the only way he felt he could deal with them, was murder and he did it out of fear along with rage.
Arthur says something similar too in Ch. 6 to Sadie or John. One of them says how he’s changed and Arthur replies “yeah or maybe he just became more of who he really was” or something along those lines. I’m surprised more people didn’t notice these lines since it’s kind of telling that Dutch didn’t “change” it was us/Arthur who was blind to his actual personality until things got desperate
Rains Fall mentioned to Arthur that "A man never changes, you just see who they really are" when talking about Dutch. I dont remember the dialogue, its been years.
Lol and also later when Marston says that Dutch didn't change but was always like that. Arthur corrects him... And in RDR1, he says he changed... even Marston says that when he matures even more. The point is. We all hate Dutch for what he did. But he did used to be good.
Guy Fawkes we only seem to accept the changing of people when it benefits our interests. I don’t think the human species has inherency to violence but I do think we are always closely tied to greed and self interest
Random fun fact: When you shoot/beat the teller during the trolley heist, Dutch scolds you. If you shoot/beat someone during the San Denis Bank heist he godamn cackles.
What makes Dutch evil was one conflicting trait, "He put HIS OWN ego" ahead of the group. All this blabber about keeping everyone "safe" and "needing money" was HIS OWN SELFISH intent. He used people. The climatic scene at the end when Ms. Grimshaw gets shot, and he has ABSOLUTELY NO reaction. Even though she kept the camp together MORE than he did. He was soulless and selfish.
It always bothered me that he had zero reaction to Miss Grimshaw. They used to have some kind of relationship too. Just shows he never actually cared. SMH
@@LadyAstarionAncunin they were a thing when they were younger, but Dutch likes to ditch girls as they age and stick with younger girls. He does the same thing in the gang; ignores Molly and hits on the much younger Mary-Beth. “That’s what I like about college girls, I get older but they stay the same age”
@@jake-ps4rhI mean if she was your partner from a young age you should have a strong bond that wouldnt care about age or looks. It's why most people love and grow old together instead going for younger and more attractive people
I’ve played through Red Dead Redemption 2 twice now. The first time, I went in completely and utterly blind. I hadn’t played the first game, nor had I heard of it beforehand. I believed in Dutch right up until Arthur and John blew up the bridge up in chapter 6, and I would have continued to believe in him if not for Arthur’s commentary. My second play through, Dutches manipulation is more evident. His lies to the gang become clearer, and I found it hard to understand how Arthur, or anyone else couldn’t see that. But then I recalled how I had completely and utterly bought what Dutch preached. Dutch can turn people to his side, and keep them there. That’s his strength, manipulating people.
feel like a good part of it is that he believes his own spiel too. he's as devoted to that dream as anyone else... and was the last one to realize the truth.
I realized this too especially when John was captured and sent to prison and he described his capture I didn’t believe that Dutch would leave someone behind who had a father son relationship with each other but the whole time Dutch really only looked out for himself at least after the saint denis chapter since I also went in blind I believed everything Dutch said and even thought that John was the mole in the group since he was the only one captured instead of killed(I didn’t know rdr2 was a prequel to rdr and didn’t even know that John was the protagonist of the first one so I thought I just found out a huge plot point by thinking John was the mole)
Ya I didn't know Dutch's fate either and he seemed so charismatic and a great leader I truly believed in him I was ready to follow him to the gates of hell if necessary.
I think the ultimate issue with Dutch was his inability to let go of comforts for his imagined utopia. He could easily have taken his gang into the wilderness to build a new life. What he couldn’t let go of were the fine clothes, high minded books, cigars, alcohol, and attention. He wanted a utopia free of society, but with all of the comforts that only society can provide.
@@Duke_Silver77 maybe you need to pay more attention. The gang literally can't survive on their own in the wilderness. They will die of starvation and lack of funds. Notice how they all complain to Arthur about starving if he doesn't hunt
It is also interesting to know that during the journey, each time Duch's band changes shelter, they sink deeper and deeper into the ground. At first, they were in the mountains, then headed towards a jovial and flowery coast with a pretty view of the valley (near Valentine), then gradually towards an abandoned and cursed mansion then towards dangerous and dirty swamps. Finally, they finished their journey by going to an abominable cave once run by a vile and sick gang (Murfree Brood). It seems that Duch's dream is sinking deeper and deeper into the ground, as if they are being rejected by the whole world. Duch and those who follows him will be rejected by the earth itself.
Even after completing the game 3 times, I am still not sure if Dutch has always been a ruthless greedy man or the game’s events turned him into one. I guess we will never know if he was truly honest at the start of the story or if it was just a facade. Great video by the way👍🏻
I think dutch was always the way he was. I think it's Arthur that changes. I mean if you look at the story at the beginning I think it's really sums up the gang. Dutch kills a girl in black water when things go bad and I wouldn't doubt it if that's happened before. When you have the choice to let the O'Driscoll in the barn go or to kill him I'm pretty sure dutch assumes Arthur would just kill him. By the end of the game Arthur has become soft and dutch is done pretending they are some righteous group doing what they do in the name of "freedom". I think Micah convinces him to cut the "dead weight" like he tells Arthur when you're near saint Dennis.
He was always bad. He was hoarding the gangs money and hiding it from them. The mask fell off when things started going south and his followers started waking up.
There’s a theory that during the escape from Saint Denis when the gang crashed the trolley car, Dutch may have damaged his brain in the crash it may explain his descent. But whose to say, it’s up to us to decide what made him this way.
I think that it was the events and Micah that ultimately corrupted him. I think he was decent at first, he pretty much raised Arthur and taught him a moral code. when Dutch kills the lady on Guarma, Arthur acts like it's the first time he's really ever committed cold blooded murder. and arthur has known him for awhile so yeah. that's my opinion.
Cult leaders (and that was what Dutch was a fact, a cult leader whom when questioned by loyalists I.E Arthur and John betrayed his ‘sons’), have a tendency to be very charming and believable until time reveals them for what they truly have always been. Dutch didn’t change this is who he always was similar to a Jim Jones character
My favorite little detail about Dutch is how well timed and intentional his use of "son" is. He only calls Arthur, John, etc, sons when he wants to motivate loyalty upon them, there are a couple of times when he chooses to call Arthur "brother" instead, often when Dutch is distracted... And several times where "son" is used to placate them. Most notable for me is when they're riding to Lagras for the croc mission, Arthur is questioning him and Dutch is getting angrier and angrier. When he crosses a line and Arthur sounds genuinely upset, and talks about how long he's been with him, Dutch has to visibly force himself to hold back. He almost struggles to get the "son" out, and he immediately adds on that Arthur's behavior is "hurting him". It's manipulation at its finest. I think my view of Dutch is that HE genuinely believes to want the best for people, but truly is a narcissist and someone who thrives on being the center of attention. Knowing these people would give their lives for him makes him feel powerful and makes him feel like he's right, while reinforcing his denial about all the sh-t he's done and all the pain he has brought, with Arthur's death leading to perhaps the first time he's ever seen himself more clearly... and the weight of that understanding (not even necessarily it needing to be Arthur - it being John or Hosea would work too- which is painful but Dutch has always been all about himself, ofc what would break his heart was HIS own actions) breaking his mind somewhat- a narcissist realizing the world does not revolve around them and that other people have thoughts and feelings of their own, that they directly influenced and caused pain over, being too much for Dutch to bear. He doesn't feel fully there when he runs into John in the epilogue, and by the time RDR1 comes around he's already aware he's clinging to an idea that was only ever an illusion... But 1. he's too far gone to go back and 2. He STILL pushes into his denial even as he knows its not true. He claims there is no more time for "people like them", as though his moral goal is still superior and the government will never understand... But we know he knows he's wrong. At that point he just does not care- he kills mindlessly (the girl in the bank being a perfect example, he does it just to spite John, who he believes to behave as morally superior to him). His degradation is fascinating. I truly believe he was never a good person but I also very much think he was not fully *aware* of that and did care, a little, about them, in a very selfish way. Or maybe he's playing me into thinking he did believe that to a degree. I really love what RDR2 did with him, it made his character so much better and memorable, which is not always how I feel in regards to certain rdr1 originals that made a return in the prequel.
wow he literally did use the gang as a power trip! he loved that they would willingly get bounties on their head just for being in his gang and that they’d do just about anything for him. when arthur and jack met ross and milton at the river, and arthur tells dutch they offered him his freedom in return for dutch, he said “why didn’t you take it?” i genuinely believe he was trying to get arthur to say something like “you’re my leader dutch, i’d do anything for you” just as a little power trip
A lot of people say that he might have never been a good person, but can you really pretend to be something you're not with people you live with for 20 something years? No real human could and neither can Dutch. He must have gone into a worse direction as a person at some point, but I think we don't see the good Dutch even once in RDR2. He was already lost before the Blackwater ferry job, which becomes quite clear when you hear what the other gang members tell Arthur about it.
Dutch's policy in a nutshell: "Why isn't he dead? Are you talking? Who told you to do that? You don't talk. You don't think. I think. You kill. It's a simple, fucking concept."-Odin, God of War: Ragnarok.
I cant forget how dutch got angry and repeatedly mumbled “insists” to himself after Arthur insisted on john Abigail and jack leave while they can. And the scene where arthur was helping rains falls behind Dutch’s back.
"Oh you insist, you hear that arthur insists. Well in that case yes of course if you insist." I cant remember his exact words but you're so right the way he looked and talked after Arthur says I insist. Then Eagle fall's dad comes to tell arthur about his son "you've been helping this man Arthur?" and then dutch wants to come along and makes comments when arthur makes the plan of attack "of course you're the boss, whatever you say lead the way"
@@slicingonions4398 it was like: Dutch: “John? Insist?” Arthur: “Yeah… insist” Dutch: “Of course, pal… I will see to it.” And then a little more dialogue after he says (under his breath “He insists upon it. Insists…”
11:30 I'd like to add that Dutch's horse, The Count, is an elite Arabian horse with a pure white coat, which sticks out from all of the other horses that belong to the gang considering Arabian horses are the most expensive and high quality of horses.
Imagine if you could straight up kill Micah while he was still in jail, tell Dutch he was shot and died while you were trying to free him and then play the game as a happy sim, like Bully's Endless Summer chapter.
No. We need to just leave downes be. Thats how arthur got tuberculosis. If he did not had tb he would have fcked micah and we wouldeve play it more satisfied in my opinion
Mike White Nah, I don't think that's all that accurate. From what we come to see in the end, the idea that Dutch had any true good intentions beyond his own self enrichment seems dubious at best. He wasn't trying to make the world a better place or actually help the people in his gang. None of that shit was his main focus and you see that revealed in the end. The mask gets completely ripped off. We're able to observe that all the good intentions Dutch would periodically claim to have, were most likely little more than manipulative, self-serving rhetoric he used to string his followers along; rhetoric that made his plans seem more worth while and altruistically grandiose, only he probably never truly intended upon following through on what he espoused. Essentially a carrot he put in front of his followers, in the pursuit of maintain and consolidate power and control to sustain his own personal benefit. Most of, if not all of the good that Dutch's actions brought about were almost entirely an afterthought; it was just something that he could point to to further bolster his image and maintain trust of the people he was ultimately just using, but not the true ultimate goal. Those good results weren't the the focus of what he was doing, just a pleasant, personally beneficial side effect. Self enrichment and the self absorbed, reckless pursuit of it at the expense of everyone and everything around you, just doesn't scream "good intentions" to me.
@@donnydogpiss4533 so your proof that he never had good intentions in the past are... his actions in the present? by that logic, anyone who does a bad deed ever was lying and manipulating during all of their past good deeds. if you want to believe a man who uncharacteristically became cruel and self-serving over the span of a few months after 20 years of being the opposite way, was just acting for the past 20 years and it can't be attributed to a more reasonable explanation like stress or mental illness or manipulation (from micah)... that's fine, it's your own personal interpretation, but your reasoning just doesn't make sense. "Self enrichment and the self absorbed, reckless pursuit of it at the expense of everyone and everything around you" yes, he does act like this in the game. obviously those aren't good intentions, and we can never truly know what dutch was like beforehand but those who were at the blackwater heist described heidi mccourt's murder (arguably the start of dutch's moral downfall) as being out of character and unlike dutch.. so, that gives an idea of what dutch was like before. and the idea that he was "hiding his true self" for 20+ years is just not that logical. he could be cruel and ruthless if he wanted to, he doesn't need to hide that. most gang leaders were, look at Colm. people DO just change sometimes, especially as a result of the world around them changing in ways they cant handle. also, ive seen lots of people say he didnt ever care about his gang members in the first place and that theory holds some merit but ive never seen someone claim he wasnt trying to change the world (or, keep the world from changing) if you think that wasnt his ultimate goal, then can i ask you what you do think he was fighting for...? "self-enrichment" is vague
One of the more interesting aspects to me is that between Hosea, Dutch, and Arthur, that makes three different gunbelt types, and how it speaks to their character Hosea wore cavalry draw, which makes it easier to reach across your body, better on horseback (possibly while fleeing). This speaks to how he would really only use violence as a last resort. Dutch wears both guns normally in our iconic gunslinger layout, allowing him to easily duel wield while standing. This shows his more confrontational personality as well as his violent tendencies and capacity to cause damage. Arthur’s layout makes me happy, because it’s actually much more realistic than both of the other two. He wears the off-hand holster (the holster for the left hand sidearm) as essentially a second right handed holster. Why? Because our iconic “cowboys” and “gunslingers” historically, many DID carry two guns, but VERY rarely ever used both guns at the same time. Because duel wielding is, believe it or not, suuuuuper fucking inaccurate and a waste of ammunition especially in a gunfight. Arthur wearing this layout really shows how experienced he is compared to the rest of the game, not wearing it to look cool but out of practicality because he knows what he’s doing and has been the strong right arm of the gang for years by the time we meet him. It’s also likely he does this because he would’ve been in this line of work back when all they had to use was black powder pistols, which needed to be basically disassembled to reload and that took too long, so you’d draw your second right handed pistol and now you have 6 more shots. It shows how long Arthur has been in the shit and how well he knows to survive the violence of their life
Just wanted to add Arthur's holsters parallel his two surrogate father figure's holsters, Arthur's main hand holster is on his right hip in the classic gunslinger style, much like how Dutch wears his holsters. Yet Arthur's off hand holster as you pointed out is meant for a righthanded draw, to draw from the offhand holster Arthur reaches across his body with his right arm, very similar to Hosea in that regard. It's not important really, I just think it's neat that Arthur being taught by both Dutch and Hosea is somewhat reflected by how he wears his holsters. God I've typed "holsters" too much for one comment.
Really glad how you pointed out at 14:40 the requirement to upgrade Dutch's tent before being able to upgrade other aspects. On my first playthrough I kind of wrote it off because the blind loyalty i had for him early in the game, on my second playthrough however, i loathed it and looked at it differently. Such an art piece of a game that gets better with each playthough, amazing analysis of this character, man!
@@ther0ach28 the player, as Arthur, was the manager of the camp funds. He was also, sort of, the Armory. I do find the fact that Hosea never has his own Tent strange. Even in chapter 4, he literally sleeps in a closet under the stairs at Shady Belle.
@@ellis51773 he gives up in chapter 2, and morphs into the ruthless outlaw he proclaimed to hate so much by the end of it all. Dutch has fooled everyone and himself for so long, it’s the end of a strongman in a way.
IMO the reason why Dutch shoots Micah and leaves is _not_ a direct result of him developing humility and realizing how evil Micah was. Rather, I believe *the reason why Dutch ever kept Micah around was to help him justify the depraved actions he always wanted to take.* Think about it. _Every other character in the game_ regards Micah as pretty much the most despicable person possible. Dutch is the only exception, and all we get as explanation is a brief mention that Micah seemingly saved Dutch's life when they met, and Micah being sycophantic. However, *there is one notable piece of value Micah consistently provides to Dutch, besides flattery.* Micah always enables Dutch's urges. And as Dutch admits in the first game, he just wants to do what's in his nature- So you can imagine why he'd attach himself to Micah, a man who encourages Dutch to do horrible nonsense, eventually over people like Hosea and Arthur who want Dutch to continue playing a role that he doesn't think suits him anymore. But by 1907, Dutch's transformation is complete. He no longer feels a molecule of remorse in senseless murder. He doesn't need Micah anymore.
Honestly I agree Micah to me always came across as a person who represented the kind of person dutch was hiding, so ofcourse dutch listens more to Micah because Micah wants to do everything he already wanted anyway
Dutch pretty much is like a demonized version of Robin Hood the entire thred of his character is a tarnished white knight that has been manipulated he is not a hero but doesn't feel like a villain he seems more like a former judge or sheriff of a relatively large town
@@studio-cultist9622 your right and if you notice, Micah hides from the gang/dutch in the beginning, over by strawberry. So its like, when he shows back up at camp you see the steady decline of dutch into depravity
I always took Dutch's change in character as just seeing dutch through Arthur's eyes. Arthur had undying loyalty to Dutch, and after a while, Arthur just started to see Dutch as he always was without rose colored glasses.
*You have got to keep the faith* A man torn between the times and what he believes is right, caught in the vile deeds that defined him. What a character
In the Shady Belle chapter of the game, if you go into Arthur’s Journal on one of the first pages, you see all the money that the gang has currently saved gathered up in a chart. The number in the Shady Belle chapter is just over $13,000. It’s stated that Dutch has this money in a secret chest in a hidden location. It’s very clear that even up to halfway through the game, they had more than enough money to use for an escape, Dutch however saw it differently.
I always thought about this, the gang certainly had enough money to leave before even Sean got shot, he really didn't want to leave and just wanted chaos
Another VERY interesting detail: on their way to Guarma, Dutch is very nonchalant about spending the gold they stole from the bank on very arbitrary things like bribing the captain; he doesn't attempt to preserve any of it, and, after killing the old woman in Guarma, he doesn't take the gold bar he gave her back. The robbery wasn't about the gold, it was about spiting both Bronte after his death and society
As the child of a narcissistic parent, I immediately recognized the character of Dutch and knew how the story was going to play out when I started the game. And I fully resonated with and understood Arthur's loyalty and struggles with feelings of guilt because of the trauma bonded relationship he has with Dutch. Dutch is a poster child for narcissistic behaviors and how they affect the people around them and, believe me, from firsthand experience I can say with certainty that narcissistic people drag everyone down with them 100% of the time.
My father was the same, dragged everyone around him to hell. Eventually we dragged ourselves back, and exacted a measure of reality to the man when me and my brother were old enough.
my brother played before me, and as i started playing he said “dad reminds me of dutch” and as i kept playing he definitely is my dad. he has a wonderful way with words in public, tricking everyone into thinking he’s the best man alive and cares about his family (or the gang in dutch’s case), when really he only cares about his own interests.
From bored boy to Robin Hood turned philosopher turned outlaw that descended into madness. Dutch is a cautionary tale of a once good man that couldn’t change with the times and it turned his once great ideology into madness and polarization.
The changing of the times brings out the evil in everyone and with the world changing around him. Dutch is one of them those who descended into not madness.
Marston: We ran in the same gang together. Under a fella called Dutch. We were all bad kids; lost, angry, and forgotten. He kinda saved us. Abraham: And turned you into criminals? Marston: Dutch didn't see it that way. We robbed banks, stole from the rich, and we gave the money to people who needed it more. Abraham: So he was a revolutionary too? Like me? Marston: I suppose. He saw that the system of power was rotten; that good people had been crushed for too long, and he believed that change could only succeed if it was brutal and relentless. Make America what he felt it was supposed to be. Abraham: I like the sound of this, Dutch. Another violent idealist! Where is he now? Marston: I don't know. But I gotta find him once I'm done with them two. In the end, he went insane. Lost faith in everything and everyone.
i love this quote, it so small and missable but really speaks to Dutch's character a lot. and to me disproves the ever popular "dutch was evil all along" theory. he's a much more complex character than that. as an ex-anarchist, when you become disillusioned with an ideology or school of thought you put so much time and faith into, it really takes a toll, to the point it can feel like the whole world is crashing down around you.
"Loyalty to the gang comes first" - Dutch - Didn't help save Sean - Didn't help break out Micah - Didn't go out to look for John in the snow - kept the money box Directly beside his tent and has his Tent as the first upgrade - treats Molly as if she's nothing, even hitting on others while she's around - left Arthur to die after finding the Cornwall Bonds - left John to die after he was shot - barely even acknowledge Seans death only saying "I don't even wanna think about that right now" - ignored every warning Hosea gave him....... Dutch at the end of chapter 6 " *WHo iS beTRaYinG mE?* "
love him or hate him, i think nobody can contest that dutch always has the best DRIP out of whole gang. doesnt matter what you make mc wear, you can never match dutch's finesse drip and swagger
i try tomake arthur look like him with the gambler opulent vest, black striped work pants, white striped everyday shirt, classic roper boots with vaquero spurs in silver with arthurs hat or stalker hat
Greatest thing about these games is how they prove everything is mostly gray. Dutch may be a villain to us but the government and the changing society are the villains of his story. It's all about perspective.
Not really. Dutch was always an asshole and evil, self loving prick. He is a master manipulator who has no problem gaining a loyal following for his own benefit. He never cared about any of the gang members and was quick to replace them with the Natives once his old gang started to question him and fall appart. He's the quintessential Dicktator type. Society changing is neither good nor bad. It simply is. You can't fight it. You can't stop it. And it will always be happening. All this talk about rebelling that Dutch loved to preach was mostly bullshit. The only thing that Dutsch wanted and loved to do was cause constant chaos and problems. And while the government are not the good guys, it was always Dutsch who picked a fight fist. This guy robs a self made man and then has the nerve to get angry when Cornwall goes after him? Like nah, fuck you Dutch.
@@VHS_NEON Not only is this an exaggeration borne of you seemingly being triggered by a fictional character (because he reminds you of someone you don't like in real life), but NO ONE is genuinely evil. Good and evil are a sickness of the mind, and even the worst psychopath or pedophile imaginable is born broken, and such a fact is ultimately more deserving of pity than hatred: though we rightly should condemn their ACTIONS, any hatred beyond that does nothing to prevent evil and is far more likely to produce actions which perpetuate the wheel of suffering.
@@julianmarx2002 Are you saying that Adolf Hitler was not genuinely evil? Because he was 100% evil, regardless what he thought of himself. So yes, genuinely evil people do exist. Dutch was never a good man. Whenever he did a good thing, he always did it either in front of others so that they can see him, or he did it to gain something in the long run. Never out of pure kindness. And no, pedophiles do not deserve pitty or forgiveness. They need to be hunted and put down without second thought.
I think Hosea’s death was the breaking point for Dutch. Hosea was the voice of reason and was actually an effective tactician who could reign in Dutch’s plans when they went too far off the rails. I also think Dutch had more respect for Hosea than he did for most people in the camp and genuinely admired him. It doesn’t help that the man who killed Hosea was pretty much the embodiment of the entity that Dutch spent his whole life railing against. After this moment, Dutch threw caution to the wind and was basically on a suicide mission to accomplish his goal or die trying, no matter who had to be manipulated or taken advantage of.
Hosea was already starting to lose faith in Dutch because of the trolley mission, where he doubts Dutch's plan. He was probably the closest one Dutch had, so he would've known if Dutch went too far or not. If he had made it to the end, he would've probably chosen Arthur's side.
I think Hosea's death was what broke him, given he was the angel on his shoulder, but Micah's manipulation, metaphorically the devil on the other shoulder, is what pushed him to where he is at the end
Nothing is more telling of Dutch's character than his seeming lack of care for Arthur's condition as he's obviously suffering from TB towards the end of the game.
@@SolusFather wouldn't say he didn't care. but he buried it. he ignored it, couldn't accept it. it got caught up in the lies he was telling himself to keep going and he didn't realize it until arthur was lying, dying, where he was.
Dutch is the true antagonist of the game. And IMO, he is the best I've ever seen. The fact that you are his aly and see him become his true self over time, only to have him now be your enemy, it's handled perfectly.
Yep. Micah is a major red herring. He's purposefully portrayed as the only real villain in this story. It blinds arthur and it even blinded John. In fact, I think most of the fanbase genuinely and unironically believes that Micah is the cause of Dutch's downfall. He isn't. Micah is a psychopath, a sadist, and a sycophant. He's simple, easy to predict and an easy target for rightious anger by the fanbase. Rockstar's devs certainly knew how to keep the less attentive people occupied with an easy villain, while keeping the actual true antagonist subtle and doubtful. Micah didn't cause the gang's downfall, it had been falling down for years already. I believe fans of the first game would have caught on to this more easily, seeing as they knew Dutch's true nature beforehand. But also, and I don't hear this enough: in RDR, killing a lawman is considered dishonorable, and it's treated as a properly big deal. John is a good man in this game and respects individuals, even if he has a problem with the way america is evolving to a nation of greed and authoritarianism. Compare this to how the gang treats individual lawmen in RDR2. They die by the dozens. Innocent men who are just doing their job, earning their paycheck. Men who can't return home to their families, families who will grieve them. Their only sin being that they were employed by a greedy excuse of a federal government. Sometimes they weren't even federal, and were just men upholding the law in general. (Remember that in RDR2 the federal state is growing, but hasn't truly tamed the entire west yet, hence why Marshall Leigh Johnson I believe is more of a local militia leader than an officer of US law enforcement, but perhaps my understanding of post-wild-west government is a bit lacking.) Arthur and the gang kill innocents left and right. Hell, the game makes sure sometimes you just kill people because they sound a bit xenophobic (the guy on the casino boat and a stable boy at one point insult Javier for his ethnicity). Apparently being stupid is reason enough for the game to justify murder. All of this is a major red flag for anybody who knew what red dead redemption really was about: good people caught in bad situations and trying their best to do what's right in the end. But killing innocent men of the law isn't that, and neither is killing bigots whose only crime was being an idiot. Dutch's "idealism" is exactly that, idealistic. It's devoid of any sense of genuine realism. His ideals are that of a sort of anarcho-communist commune, but he showcases nothing but greed and apathy for his "commune" to begin with. The exact opposite of that ideal. Arthur and the other good ones just realized it far too late.
You forgot about the dismissal and negligence of his Ol lady Molly O'Shea. A woman who deeply loved him and when she was killed, it didn't even faze Dutch.
It’s heavily implied that Micah was only running with the gang to get Dutch, playing multiple sides like the O’Driscolls and Pinkertons to his advantage.
@@STEELGMBL everyone came to that conclusion because of the newspaper micah burned as kindling that shows dutch has a 1000 bounty. Whether that was before or after Blackwater we dont know. Considering arthur was said to have one worth 5000 and the pinkertons wanted to use him to get to dutch means hes worth way more than that
Not everything that happens in the game is Micah's fault. Dutch has just as much to blame, even more. Pearson was the one who set up the meeting with the O'Driscolls, Bill asked around where the gang was in Fleeting Joy, leading the Pinkertons to hear about it. Its laughable when fans think Micah is a character in the background twiddling his fingers and say he's been with the Pinkertons since the beginning or "Micah dressed in white for the Saint Denis robbery to stand out so the Pinkertons won't shoot him" They were ALL getting shot at by a damn gattling gun, Micah was shooting back i in both the Saint Denis bank and at Lakey cabin, I highly doubt Agent Milton was like "shoot everyone EXCEPT Micah". Lol. Did Micah obviously ratted them out like Milton said? Of course, after coming back from Guarma, A little after Fleeting Joy. The blame goes to Dutch as well, as Rains Fall said "A man never changes, he just shows who he truly is".
I think the best moment that perfectly highlights Dutch's character is when he plays chess in his head. This moment has so much depth to it, that it's astounding. Firstly, it shows what he views his gang and enemies as: pieces to be used and manipulated. Despite saying that he views his gang as family, that isn't the case, and instead sees them as tools to use for his goals. This can be seen with the Native Americans, specifically Eagle Flies. He's able to convince Eagle Flies that he's helping him, and that what he's doing is the right thing. But in reality, Dutch is just using him as a piece on a chess board, which is why he doesn't care when he gets shot, as he had already accomplished his goal, and the piece was worthless to him. Secondly, this also shows Dutch's poor abilities at planning and strategizing. Now I'm not very good at chess, but after doing research on good chess moves, I can say that the moves Dutch makes after the first 2 are awful. He plays the Dutch defense, which has a reputation for being a poor opening unless handled by a grandmaster. Unfortunately, Dutch is not a grandmaster, as he does not take advantage of the middle for either sides, and deploys both the black and white knights in pointless positions. It becomes clear to me that Dutch did not play the Dutch defense out of logic, but because it's named after him, showcasing his intense narcissm and self centered thinking. Thirdly, it shows just how bad of a leader Dutch actually is, and how much he has isolated himself from his problems in the gang, and how little he cares about them. Instead of talking with his members after being gone for days on Guarma or brainstorming ideas on what to do next, he separates himself from them and plays chess in his head. A good leader is one that will work with their members and listen to them, as well as considering both their wellbeing and the overall organization. Dutch does neither, and instead works only with Micah, because Micah has done nothing but constantly compliment Dutch, and hasn't challenged him, as mentioned in this video.
Fantastic analysis. Not many people touch on the fact that Dutch is heavily narcissistic and only views the gang members as tools to be manipulated to further himself. He dresses extravagantly, carries expensive custom Schofield revolvers, even wears multiple gold rings and a gold pocket watch despite the gang being extremely poor and destitute in the beginning. It was clear to me from my first playthrough he was of a narcissistic personality. And Micah is clearly psychopathic, only taking pleasure at the expense of others, and often not being able to control his psychotic murderous impulses (as seen in Strawberry). Micah knowing the narcissistic mindset, is able to manipulate Dutch by feeding his self image and never challenging Dutchs mindset or self portayed image of a mastermind leader (I have a plan), which is the thing Dutch truly cares about most. Edit: Spelling
Additionally to your chess observation he is reciting a variation of the "dutch defense" which involves black sending a pawn (Arthur/John/Eagle Flies) out in the opening rounds to be sacrificed for the king. He also never recites far enough to consider how his strategy plays out.
Reminds me of how Arthur was once kidnapped by the O'Driscolls and he was there for days and has to escape on his own and all the time I was thinking "where the hell is Dutch?? Not even searching anywhere?" And they are all sitting back at camp, of course being shocked at the sight of Arthur and the state he is in. And later, Arthur can ask Dutch in one of the camp conversations something like "you were looking for me, right? You would have come to save me?" And there was a tiny, almost unnoticable pause, before Dutch answers "Of course!" And I thought yeah, Dutch... sure. Arthur, you loyal dog, can't you see what kind of a man he is? I didn't trust Dutch as soon as I had found his speech note in Chapter 2. And he reminded me of an ex bf of mine, who uses very similar manipulation tactics. Whenever Dutch wanted something I screamed at my screen "do it yourself you moron, I'll go marry the love of my life, you go to hell!" It broke my heart that I couldn't stop the catastrophe from unfolding... poor Arthur 😢
I played rdr 2 first and wasn’t aware of anything that happened in rdr 1. I literally didn’t even know John was the protagonist. That being said I didn’t find it one bit strange that Dutch didn’t try save Arthur after he gets captured. After many missions end you have the choice to free roam as Arthur for many days until a gang member goes looking for you so the reason Dutch didn’t send anyone after Arthur in this instance I believe is because Dutch wasn’t really aware that he was captured.
@@TheOddball28 But the thing is, Arthur said to meet back at a certain spot after the meeting. The fact that Dutch didn't even think it was weird, suggests to me that he abandoned him
@@JMR_2028 that is true, I recently replayed that mission and forgot about that detail at the time i wrote that comment so that’s definitely something strange. If I was Dutch I would either look for Arthur with Micah or send at least 2 or 3 of the best gang members (maybe 1 good tracker like Charles) to look for Arthur. Since that didn’t happen I think you might be right.
Dutch was definitely a man who had a vision for what America should be despite it's blatant brutality and freedom. His tragic descent is one that is no doubt poignant and quintessential and also something that everyone can learn from. This was a beautifully thorough analysis of the character. As a suggestion I'd like to see Aku from Samurai Jack be analyzed.
The irony in Americans was truly free when their master was an ocean away. Today America has become everything they was fighting against, but worse. Americansdon't even have freedom within their own homes...
@@KenyaTheMighty Hey I like to call a spade a spade give credit where credits due game respects game you're saying what I thought before I suggested some time back that he do videos on Vicious from Cowboy Bebop and the Lich from Adventure Time I'd still love to see those
I’m so glad you chose to analyze Dutch! Heard several interpretations of this character, but I’ve been dying to hear your perspective. He’s also the reason I went to Tahiti 😅
I think the most telling aspect of this man is that in every ending, he has nothing to say to a dying Arthur. A man he seemingly thought of as his son. He reminds me a lot of Abraham Reyes from RDR1. An idealistic sociopath that uses people to get what he wants. But still with pangs of emotion when faced with certain situations. I think these people are so commonly in leadership roles and Rockstar does a great job of showing you not only what draws people to them, but the ultimate inhumanity of them.
And that's exactly why John disliked Reyes: He saw a lot of Dutch in the man and not in a good way. Reyes even openly said that he admired Dutch as another "violent idealist."
The guy was a classic Charles Manson type, he was legit a cult leader and manipulator. I don't think that there was ever a change in his character, the mask just slipped when things started getting desperate. By that point he was done with using his silver tongue to convince and manipulate his gang into seeing things his way, he was only interested surrounding himself with sycophants who told him what he wanted to hear and never questioned his orders
@@Edax_Royeaux it's not a change though. He stayed fundamentally the same person throughout except I'm the early days he was able to mask alot of who he was
I always loved the Civil war veteran that Arthur become buddy's with. He made me think this is what the gang could do if they just stopped stealing and got some land.
He is the man Arthur could have been if he wasn't terminally ill. Both have faced hardship and trauma but finds solace and contentment in the beauty and peacefulness of nature.
The thing that revealed Dutch's character the most, at least for me, was something he said to Bronte shortly before he killed him. When Bronte tells Dutch he's nothing, Dutch coldly responds, "I possess things that you will never understand". It's great dialogue, because that's PRECISELY what a narcissist thinks. Narcissists struggle with terrible insecurity, but they also consider the people around them as lesser beings that literally CAN'T understand them. It also explains the purpose of going after Bronte perfectly. Dutch could never explain to someone like Arthur or Hosea the TRUE reason Bronte needed to die. They'd never understand that he deserved death for the disrespect of harming Dutch, for endangering Dutch, for having the audacity to consider himself the same tier of living being as Dutch. THAT'S why Dutch wanted him dead. That's not something Dutch would've done before, but the struggles the gang went through stripped them bare to their cores: Dutch, at his core, is an awful person; a narcissistic criminal who'd violently drown you for the crime of slighting him. Arthur, at his core, is a conflicted man who wishes he was better. John, at his core, is a man who loves his family. Sadie, at her core, is a woman with love for those close and wrath for those who hurt them. All of them were pushed to the edge, and at the edge, they lost the luxury of their facades, and became who they were deep down.
Colm O'Driscoll is the embodiment of what happens when you take Dutch and strip him away of all the speeches and idealism. Ultimately, Dutch wants chaos under a delusional belief of entitlement. He fancies himself a leader, but the fact he has to constantly remind everyone about his leadership shows how insecure he actually is.
It’s why that one traitor in the gang before 1899 actually discovered about Dutch. He was killed for discovering the truth and trying to awaken the gang from Dutch. That this traitor was the real man who told Arthur that revenge is a fools game.
I always saw Micah as an agent of chaos whose only cause is to bring pain and misery to everyone. He doesn't feel for anyone or anything. He decided to be Dutch's right-hand man is to cause more chaos with Dutch's resources. This is also why I think he was playing so many sides. I remember reading a letter from his brother that he got. His brother seemed to appreciate the fact that he tried to reach out but he said that if he tries to contact him or his family again, he'll kill him. From what I remember, they used to ride together but after his brother settled down and became a family man, he thought of Micah as this cloud of evil and chaos that no one should ever be in.
I'm also wondering if Micah creeped on his nieces. In several camp interactions we see him flirting with women inappropriately, and given how in that letter his brother specifically mentioned, "protecting his daughters from all that is evil in this world" it's not a stretch to assume something happened there
If you go micah camp near strawberry you find a newspaper clip him and his father killing a family also a part of a wanted poster for a $1000 for Dutch he was always the rat!
Just one detail: If you look around the camp at one point, you'll find the script for one of Dutch's "inpromptu" speeches. These, too, were parts of his manipulations, giving the impression that he was swept off by feelings and emotions, when the speeches actually were well prepared in order to further seduce his followers. Otherwise, this video was a great analysis on an important character of my all time favourite game.
Writing down and preparing speeches isnt a sign of "manipulation" lol lots of people in position of leadership will do this quite alot. Its why he is such a good speaker and most likely something he has been doing from a young age.
@@MistahJay7 Well, that is true. But it is manipulation when you pretend that you're improvising. Surely not Dutch's greatest sin, and even Winston Churchill joked that all his best improvisations were carefully prepared. But still worth mentioning in this context, I thought.
@@MistahJay7 yeah a prepared speech on it's own isn't a sign of manipulation, but when you play it off as a spur of the moment, heartfelt swell of emotion that's coming off the top of your head, that's what the people you're making it to believe making them more likely to be receptive to it ..and you've carefully written down what you're going to say, how you're going to say it and are going for maximum impact, that kind of is. So yeah, the speech being prepared isn't manipulative on it's own but pretending it was impromptu definitely is.
@@cain666 it’s manipulation but it should be stated it isn’t a type of manipulation that is malicious in anyway it’s just a result of ego wanting to seem like he can come up with great speeches on the fly when they are rehearsed.
@@videonmode8649 Well, maybe true, however Dutch had too much resentment towards the law that I don't think he would consider turning himself in to be redemption.
@@videonmode8649 It was to save his own skin... This is from the same man who, 12 years after shooting Micah, will jump from a cliff instead of letting John Marston take him in or take him down. Dutch had to feel like he was in control the entire time.
"We can't always fight nature. We can't fight change, we can't fight gravity, we can't fight nothin'. My whole life, all I ever did was fight..." - Dutch van der Linde
"I'm a woman and the strongest character, because Rockstar shat the bed with it's SJW trash." -Sadie Adler She can fight and never lose.... unless a cutscene needs to happen and Abigail need to be shown off as kewl.
This sums up Dutch. He tried to fight everyone and everything just to prove he's right. He didn't accept that west world is changing. Capitalism is soon coming. Govt orders are changing he was never ready to accept the things. He can't handle his people living him. And Micah just fed him that. All dutch wanted to hear. Dutch never wanted to be questioned just followed. That's one path to madness to you and to the people in your surrounding!
@@revisit8480 Pretty sure she got stabbed my Micah and only survived because Dutch shot him? That was her losing vs Micah. Imagine still banging on about ‘SJWs’ in 2022. I bet you still watch Ben Shapiro destroying feminists with ‘facts and logic’ 💀 Grow up, stop crying about video game characters and get a job
14:38 to your point about the tents, this was present all the way back in the first Red Dead Redemption game too. During the mission where John finally catches up to Dutch, you can take a slight detour in the cave system Dutch's new gang is using as a hideout. There you'll find a very nice curtain and behind it a very lavish washroom. The Indians he convinced to join him and the outlaws still riding with him have to make do with cots and old blankets. But not Dutch. He gets to live in luxury. That's why the stuff with Bronte just clicked with me. Of course Dutch tries to buddy up to that dickhead. Bronte is living exactly the kind of life Dutch wants for himself.
According to Benjamin Byron Davis, meeting Angelo Bronte was the beginning of Dutch's sanity slippage: Because at first, Dutch admired Bronte because he was the man he wished to be, but ended up disgusted after seeing how Bronte behaves like a tyrant, treating others like trash.
Ehhh not really, Micah is not as well written than the other characters and his whole purpose is to be a yes man to Dutch as well as be a bad influence to him.
@@AbdoAbdo-ix1bo Not as well wriiten as Dutch but still intresting. The he seems to actually care about his brother. And its intresting How He also is againts the Whole debt collecting thing. I think he is a great character very much a sociopath.
@@AbdoAbdo-ix1bo I can see that if we’re basing him off reality but when you compare him with the rest of the van der linde’s who have some version of a code he just seems evil
Honestly I believe the death of Hosea and Lenny in the Saint Denis bank job was deeply symbolic to the death of the gang. Or at least the start of the death. The death of Hosea being the death of the old and wise, and the death of Lenny being the death of the young vigor the gang had.
Hosea often reigned Dutch's most violent impulses in, after Hosea died nothing held Dutch back (which only became worse because of Micah's manipulation and evil whispers), not even Arthur could do anything to stop it.
Dutch is idealistic man who lived in a lie so deep that he trully believed it. That said, once he realised he was wrong, he couldn't stomach admitting it, and took the coward way out. He is a coward when it takes to admit he made a mistake, and that might just be his biggest flaw, he didn't choose to lie to himself, he just did, but he chose to leave Arthur to die when he realised Arthur was right. Dutch might've had a saving grace but his ego and cowardice ruined it.
@@melvinbigsmokeharris7640 He knew Micah was the rat, all he had to do is take him out right there, he saw Micah shoot Miss Grimshaw, he saw Arthur was being sincere and he just knew, which is why he ended up killing him anyway on top of the mountain many years later, but still, even if Arthur was dying, he ran away like a coward.
@@Obi-WanKannabis dutch is not a coward. i'm willing to bet the reason he walked away was simply due to the stress of the situation. seeing what is essentially his adopted son dying, and realizing that he was part of the gangs downfall, just drove him past the breaking point. like, you're gonna tell me you've never been in a situation so stressful, that your brain stops working properly, and you have to just walk away from it? dutch is many things, good and bad, but a coward he is not.
@@a_loyal_kiwi88 He's certainly brave when it comes to fighting, but he is a coward when it comes to admitting his faults, and that to me is a type of cowardice. He runs away instead of admitting he's wrong. > like, you're gonna tell me you've never been in a situation so stressful, that your brain stops working properly, and you have to just walk away from it? Sure, but I'm not a leader, and if I am faced with overwhelming evidence that I'm wrong the least I can do is not leave them to die. What he did is what a leader should never do.
@@Obi-WanKannabis Thats not even the first time Dutch left Arthur to die either , When Arthur was about to get stabbed in an earlier mission dutch saw and just walked away. He could have easily helped.
Dutch is the most brilliant depiction of a severely complex, traumatised character I’ve ever seen in a game. Everything you said about how he recruited people for his gang just screams manipulative. They had no choice but to be loyal because of everything he “done” for them. I don’t think he seen it that way, but he did. Hosea was his moral compass. And you could literally see him go off course after Guarma. Mind you, I still believe Dutch got a head injury during the trolley robbery, resulting in an exacerbation of his mental health issues (because god knows he had them lol). An Acquired Brain Injury can result in personality changes/exacerbation of already present personality issues so it makes sense. Plus the trauma of the boat sinking, the absolute carnage on Guarma and losing Hosea - horrific trauma like that would have anyone suffering. His paranoia and need to kill just get worse, he’s had a chaotic life and really, he wouldn’t have been able to cope with living off the land. I also think Micah is just as bad, if not worse. He didn’t hide it. And then he took his chance as soon as he realised Dutch was going off the rails. The whole gang is a group of people who’ve suffered trauma and they have this bond because of the things they experienced. The only few who seemed to have any sort of self awareness is the likes of Arthur, John, Abigail, Charles?? Javier to an extent perhaps? Me, being an empath lmao, I do hold the belief Dutch did have the gangs best interests at heart and I’ll die on this hill. But I think Micah really got inside his head, not saying Dutch is a saint or anything, but Micah really poisoned him.
Javier knew to a somewhat decent extent. But he was just to loyal to actually leave dutch and side with Arthur. He even shows his reluctance when he points his gun in the air rather than point it at John and arthur. He even implies that John was like a brother to him right after they got him from the mountain. Really sucks since he was one of my favs. If the members had still been alive than I'm sure Javier would've sided with arthur or the situation would've never happened in the first place
i dont think dutch ever had their best interests at heart. only because you stated earlier about the manner he recruited each individual member. i think it was a matter of the mask slowly slipping off him towards the end (along with what you stated about the brain injury. very interesting!) he might’ve been good at one point; maybe when he was raising arthur. he had to be considering the way everyone fully believed in him. but i also think he used their blind loyalty to his advantage. he is HUGE on loyalty and i think thats a combination of his trauma and how well he gets to use/manipulate others based on how much faith they put in him. unfortunately after hosea (as you said), no one could fill that role. i know dutch even said to arthur that hes starting to sound like hosea and even hosea told dutch before he died that dutch would “damn [them] all”.
An important detail about Micah is that he’s not a good manipulator only when Dutch is starting to break he gets into his head by appeasing him not telling him his plans will fail but they are brilliant and giving him blind loyalty something Dutch craves for during Chapter 6 and because he is fuelling Dutches ego he makes him his right hand man and abandons Arthur and John which is really sick of him to do considering they are basically his sons and he has brought them into this life and now leaves those responsibilities Worst part about it? He only realises what is actually going on THROUGH Arthur’s death (Mainly his High Honour death) has he tells Dutch “I gave you all I had… I did..” the real Dutch comes back for a few seconds and seeing what he has done leaves his gang behind ashamed of what he has done
I've always interpreted Dutch as being a narcissist or at the very least having narcissistic tendencies that worsen as the game progresses. Dutch basically has no concept of constructive criticism and sees anyone questioning his decisions as a threat to his leadership. The only person who Dutch ever allowed to criticize him was Hosea and after he died every thing went downhill and his paranoia started to overwhelm him. In Dutch's mind he can never admit that he's at fault. Micah picked up on this immediately and started playing into Dutch's narcissism by becoming his yes man. Dutch essentially views loyalty as doing whatever he says without question. So when Arthur and John begin openly questioning his decisions he sees it as a form of betrayal. With Hosea gone and Arthur and John becoming potential threats to his leadership, he turns to Micah to fill the role of second in command. It ends up costing him everything in the end... and he knows it.
Idk if anyone has talked about this but in the mission where he goes fishing with Hosea and Arthur, he says something along the lines of: “you know… I think we’re going to be okay, whenever I see us together; it gives me hope. As long as you two are standing by me, I know everything’s going to work out.” This to me invokes the feeling that Dutch was slowly breaking down and knew that things were changing rapidly, but as long as he had a man who he saw as a father figure/mentor and a man who he saw as his own son/brother; he’d power through and keep going. It’s subtle hints like these that really define Dutch as a character and it makes sense as he ends up losing his life-long mentor and basically his son because of those hasty decisions that he makes later on. You can even see the sorrow in his expression when Molly gets shot but he holds back in order to hide his fear.
I think it’s interesting that Dutch’s normal outfit has black at the front and red at the back showing how the gang members are blinded by his charisma and can’t see the evil within him which is represented by red. And then his Guarma outfit has the red at the front which i think shows how this is maybe the first time it is becoming clear to Arthur in particular, how corrupted Dutch has become. This is also done with Micah in how his normal outfit has a red shirt presenting how he is clearly evil, while on Guarma he has a black shirt which shows how Dutch is blind to Micah’s negative influence on him.
@@shnubdawg7730 thats a good point. blue could represent a sort of goodness considering that in Arthur’s default outfits have a lot of blue on them as well. Also that on the ferry mission in act 4 your outfit changes between blue for good honour and red for bad.
I also like the sort of reverse symbolism Rockstar did with Micah wearing the white (good) hat, and Arthur with a black (evil) one. In old Black and White cowboy films, the color of the characters hat was an easy way to tell what "side" they were on, but Rockstar kinda flipped the meanings around.
@@knightmare1267 Micah’s outfit comes together with that, in how he’s truely evil shown by his red shirt which Dutch is blind to, represented by his black coat and then with the white hat to make it seem like he’s a good person.
The way I see Dutch after 6+ playthroughs. He wasn't always an evil man. Yes he was a narcissist with a messiah complex who liked to rob people, but he clearly had his own code he kept to and cared deeply for his "family" around him, even if just to the extent they looked up to him. He simply did not know how to handle his world crumbling around him, so he burrowed into what he knows will keep himself safe and alive a little longer, causing him to commit the evil acts we see(and hear about in regards to the girl on the ferry). You can see his regret and realization for how badly he messed up with Arthur in the high honor ending, so deep down he still had that love in his heart, it was just overshadowed by his desire to survive.
I have basically the same opinion and honestly I don't understand why someone says he used his gang like an army just to aquire glory and fame, he surely was a narcissist but he cared about Arthur and the others. Also, many people seem to forget that he progressively loses his mental sanity, in the first game he's a broken man, a killing machine (he doesn't even know what he's doing at this point, saying that he kills "For sport, I guess...") that has few flashes of lucidity. That's why I consider him one of the best fictional characters I know and the most tragic of this series.
@@jocatorejenerico I know his decent was so well written he went from being a gang leader who cared for his gang like family to manipulating a group of people who lost everything (the native Americans from rdr 1) to do his bidding
I don’t believe he was ever good, he left Arthur for dead, when the gang and the Indians attacked the oil company. Why would he have felt remorse for Arthur’s death if he had purposely tried to kill him earlier in the game. John and Abigail included too. He only wanted to save the members who didn’t question him like Micah
@@GotUrRain Notice that just two missions before, in "Favored Sons", he saves Arthur from the army. He could have simply run away and let the soldiers shoot Arthur, but he risked his life to save him, why? In my opininon Micah's manipulation made him think Arthur was the traitor with John, he was sure about the latter but remained uncertain with Arthur until that mission when he had the (wrong) confirmation Arthur was a traitor, the same man he had raised for twenty years like a son. You could tell me that he was bad to listen to Micah instead of the other gang members, but he was in my opinion in a very weak mental state, THE RAT noticed that and took advantage of it.
I think Dutch didn’t want John out of prison simply because he was afraid that John will reveal that he didn’t save him even tho he could have. Thats an even more selfish and manipulative reason than thinking that he is simply just a traitor.
My thoughts exactly. Even though this channel focuses on TV and film mainly I think RDR is genuinely on par with some of the best films out there. Quick side not, do you think John Marston would be a good character for this format? Considering all the mad things he done all for selfish yet noble reasons.
I think Dutch is someone that's always had a massive ego and when things dont go his way he loses control. In the beginning, things are going well for him and with the support of arthur and hosea who were able to lead him in the right direction. But when hosea died, things went out the window and his ego couldn't handle it. His goals and desires became bigger and micah got in his head and twisted his mind and his ego grew and got out of control. That's my opinion on him
This is one of my favorite things about Red Dead Redemption. The characters are so well realized and likeable that you start to forget that they're all criminals who rob and kill for selfish reasons. It works so well because you begin to forget you're the bad guy and it really lets you assimilate into your role as an outlaw who forgets their way of life is wrong because they've been living that way for so long.
My perspective is that the difference between Arthur and Dutch is how people react to change that is beyond our control. You can either accept reality for what it is and do your best with what your given, or you can try to attempt to resist it which usually is just a delusion. I don't think Dutch was a bad person always, he is the result of what happens when an unstoppable force threatens a mindset that is unwilling to adapt or admit defeat. Writing him off as inherently bad seems dangerous to me because most people have a similar mindset, most people might have more in common than what is comfortable to admit. A 2nd bit of evidence is that it's clear that Hosea and Arthur recognized some redeeming qualities in him outside his charisma, neither of them seem gullible enough to follow a liar for that long.
You’re right, especially about hosea! He’s a wise man that lived a life before Dutch. That said, even the most savvy people can be roped in by charismatic, manipulative narcissists
But. I don’t think Dutch was always as bad as he was at the end of the game. He definitely changes as he’s being in turn manipulated by Micah. At the start he looked after Sadie, he cared for his gang members… 20 years of doing that doesn’t just come crashing to a halt for no reason. I think that’s the genius of the writing tbh, at some point in our lives I think most of us have seen someone we admire being less astray in some way, or make a choice we disapprove of, because of someone’s persuasion.
Although I'm not a criminal, I can relate to Dutch. Especially when Arthur said "We're living in a world we no longer understand, full of people who don't want us anymore". I relate to that 💯.
Dutch is a sociopath, he manipulates people to suit his needs with his charm or if necessary, violence. He only pretends to care about people if they fit his agenda, he doesn't feel bad when one of the crew dies, he only feels bad that it's going to make getting what he wants harder. He pretends to be empathetic and knows how to use other people's emotions to manipulate them. Micah is a psychopath, like Dutch he doesn't feel empathy for his companions or his victims and does whatever he wants to suit his agenda. He is much quicker to physical violence which could partially be because he's not as smart as Dutch but more likely it's just the way his brain is wired, other people are basically just objects to him and he doesn't care whether they live or die as long as he gets what he wants. He is a terrible influence on Dutch because deep down they know they are wired the same, Micah just takes a more direct route when it comes to getting what he wants. Arthur and Hosea weren't gullible, they just overlooked the tiny cracks in Dutch's facade in the same way you might not see the severe depression being hidden by a friend who always seems to be laughing until one day they try to commit suicide. Sometimes it's not obvious until it's too late and then you'll look back and see all the subtle warning signs that you either ignored or failed to acknowledge. In a way it could be said that Dutch isn't actually lying, he genuinely wants what he preaches, they've just failed to realise that what he wants and what they want might not be the same thing.
Dutch is honestly one of the most fascinating and complex characters in video games IMO. There are so many layers to his narcissism, charisma, and pathology that I could spend days dissecting. He's like an evil Don Quixote. He believes in a dream so profoundly, that he murders, lies, and abuses anyone who either hinders the path to that dream, or emotionally or psychologically breaks down people who he sees as useful assets to accomplishing that dream. His abuse is so subtle that you can only pick on hints of it if you're looking carefully and trying not to get swept up in his charisma. And because he believes he's doing all of this for a righteous cause, his narcissism makes it so that he does not understand why what he's doing is evil. It's only when reality starts crashing in on him that the Old West is fading and that his dream is exactly that--a dream--that he begins to unravel and become more and more depraved.
Yeah is definitely the best written in video games I’ve ever seen and I didn’t even like rdr2 that much granted I mainly hated the gameplay but found the story and characters amazing though
Don't forget that he doesn't start going "crazy" until he bangs his head. I honestly think that's when shit hits the fan. Him hitting his head that hard then making increasingly more aggressive moves is very curious. I would bet he did some real damage there and all his inhibitions went out the window.
@@ronintiger It just feels like the most barebone third person shooter they could have possibly made which wouldn't be as bad but my main issue is with how amazing the story is I want to see it through but the game likes to jam random shooting sections in nearly every mission to fit a gameplay quota. The actual combat though is so barebones that it makes it become a massive slog very quickly
@@soulreaver6300 I wouldn't attribute all of his actions to that though... I personally believe its more complicated than that, not that the headbang didnt affect him. Dutch has still had these moments of impuning narcissism and even hypocricy before the Saint Denis Traincar accident. Maybe the concussion brought out an extreme side to it, but there's no doubt that he's always had it in him.
so many camp interactions that are yet to be discovered, but one of my favorite ones was Dutch saying to John “We are not criminals, we are outlaws” still trying to cling on to whatever semblance of noble and good he has left in him as a character
He says that to Javier and when Javier asks “Is there a difference?” Dutch gets angry and tells Javier off without actually explaining the difference. I feel like Dutch says things because they sound good/inspiring but he actually doesn’t really know what he’s saying
@@josephstalin2606 that is true, because I remember in Chapter 2’s camp, you can find Dutch’s own speech paper where he just puts down cool words and other footnotes, showing that he’s not all that genuine
I think everyone is right in a way. I think deep down Dutch did care for his people. But the combination of everything going wrong, Micah’s venomous whispers, the death of Hosea, and a potential brain injury in the trolley crash finally brought to the surface his darker impulses
Love this video, a point I caught with Dutch you didn't mention unless I missed it. When Dutch is reciting chess moves he is reciting a version of the "Dutch defense" which involves moving a pawn from in front of the king to be sacrificed. A defense move under the guise of offense. He knew at least in that moment (but probably before) that he was fine with losing more of his pawns than necessary as long as he survives.
This video got me thinking more about the story of RDR2, and I realised that there's actually some similarities between that game and the famous satire of Stalin's Russia, Animal Farm by George Orwell. They're both about a group of unfortunate, oppressed individuals who band together and create a revolutionary group under an idealistic and inspiring leadership. In this case, Dutch would be Napoleon (both their descents into madness and tyranny and their love of luxury match well), Hosea fits with Snowball and the rat Micah could be Squealer. Arthur is Boxer, the faithful, sturdy work horse who realises something is wrong but just can't bring himself to betray his leader. It all fits quite well when you think about it, which I suppose in turn means there are some parallels between RDR2 and Stalin's Russia
Having played RD1 as a kid I knew Dutch was gonna be the main reason the gang fell apart.I played my Arthur while trying to uphold the code that Dutch instilled in Morgan since he was young. “Feed those need feeding, help those that need help, shoot those that need shooting”. Because without that we were really no better than Colm and his gang. When it was apparent Dutch just stopped following that code is when I just stopped listening to him and was waiting for Arthur to figure it out too. Someone said in another video that “Dutch needs to be a lighthouse in the storm” someone who can hold people under him to prove that his way of life is right because if he is not that figure, that leader, he has nothing. If he truly cared about the gang they all could have left for Tahiti in like chapter 3 after the Valentine bank heist
I find it hilarious that they complain about not having enough money while Aurthur is sitting there with 6k in his pocket complaining as well. Dude literally has more than enough but cutscene logic doesn't follow game logic
Well give the devil his due: it's Dutch but its also the degradation of society (which always happens when progress is too rapid, or too slow). RDR also a game about the downfall of the American dream, and the fact is that the state of America today versus 100 year ago- obviously in many, many ways life is better- but Dutch makes legitimate points about our society being fallen.
Dutch's pathological need for control seems to be a big part of why he flew of the handle. He considers himself to be a great planner, but he loses it when the plans don't work out. This is also why he got so angry at Bronte, because Bronte managed to manipulate him without Dutch realizing he was being manipulated. He got played by the mobster and that is why the anger towards him seems to be even worse than his anger towards Dutch's normal arch-nemesis of Colm.
[SPOILERS (also RDR 1) ] This is my personal opinion about this character: Dutch had at first good intentions, he wanted to live free in an equal world. At first the gang had a strong moral code, they were much like Robin-Hood, outlaws but possibly better than the corrupted lawmen themselves. This however doesn't exclude the fact he has always been a narcissistic person and a manipulator. We have to specify a thing first: we don't see, at least in these two games, a man fully sane mentally; Arthur after finding out about TB tells Sadie that Dutch has changed and this process probably began years before. The game starts with the horrible murder of Heidi McCourt, Dutch never fully overcomes this fact and interestingly John is the first to criticize him. Dutch makes terrible choices throughout the whole game and many of them are made because of revenge (he manipulated the families to avenge his daddy, destroyed the manor because they offended him, same with Bronte, then Cornwall...). We can see here his hypocrisy, he betrays his own ideals, but it seems this is a slow process, like if he is slowly degenerating. Someone could say he was always this way but I don't think so: he managed to lead the gang for over 20 years in terrible situations and it seems he never cared for example about revenge. It's also interesting his relationship with society. First of all he reads books that fill his mind with wrong ideas, he also has the most comfortable tent but he doesn't share it with Hosea that has health problems (Dutch has also a little stove that could help Hosea with his lung problems) and it seems that he enjoys the products of society. In my opinion the highest and coolest point of this contradiction is reached in the first game, when he uses an automatic pistol and has even a tub in his cave (it's like a little portion of civilized world put into the most primitive place where a man can live, I find this a fantastic detail). The constant pressure of the progress of the civilized world, the realization that his savage utopia was in fact impossible to realize (at first wanted to settle in the USA, then in hypothetical Heavens far far away and it all ended in a cold, grey, isolated mountain), the constant doubting of everyone around him, especially John and Hosea, later Arthur; created in him a horrible paranoia that contributed to degenerate his sanity. We can't forget THE RAT's manipulations, that contributed to make him not realize he was wrong and think John and Arthur were the rats. Also John is very important; he's a father, he run away, he could replace Dutch with his family in the most difficult time, in Dutch's eyes this is a betrayal and surely the constant doubting that John demonstrates doesn't help (I think Dutch tolerated Hosea's complains beacause they were dear friends and Hosea was his voice of reason). The burning of the Manor in my opinion is the first heavy demonstration of his hypocrisy, he isn't so interested in helping Jack, or at least this is not the main reason he destroys the place. He feels mocked by them and in a furious rage kills an entire family. Then we have the point of no return: in the fourth chapter there are two important things. He gets hit in the head (and this is not placed randomly because the game focuses several seconds on this detail) and Hosea's death. With his demise, Micah has the way clear and can manipulate Dutch with his incredibly advanced snake skills. I think the bang on the head wasn't enough to make him change his personality but had some effects on his psyche and that's why he killed Bronte with such a brutality. In the next chapter we see that he's completely degenerating and is lost without Hosea (chess scene). For the last chapter I want to focus on three things: the Indians, whom he helped just for interest and in a highly hypocritical way (fantastic the mission "A Rage Unleashed", where we can hear "At Home With Dutch": a bad omen for the future (he will manipulate the Indians in RDR 1 in a very similar way)). Here he also makes fun of Arthur's sickness (I wanted to punch him in the face). Then there's the "Favored Sons" mission where he saves Arthur from the water and the mission where he leaves him to die. Some people say that this betrayal was premeditated, I highly disagree. Why did Dutch have to save Arthur just two missions before? He could let him drown or get shot by the soldiers, maybe faking a faint (so if Arthur survived he couldn't accuse him), but he didn't. In my opinion this and Dutch's face when he realizes he trusted a RAT the whole time watching one of his last "sons" die demonstrate that he really cared about everyone in the gang. He was simply manipulated by Micah into thinking Arthur and John were the traitors and the fact they spent the whole time in camp together murmuring and the "I insist" were to him the confirm he needed. He saw his best friend Hosea die in part because of his wrong decisions, saw that his dream was pointless, that everyone was against him (not true but that's what he saw), trusted the worst person possible that told him what he wanted to hear, not what he needed to hear and in the end realized (always from his point of view) that the ones he raised as sons betrayed him the whole time. For his mind this was quite enough I guess, but the most horrible punch in the stomach was realizing that Arthur always cared about him and gave him all he had, he let one of the few people that truly wanted to help him getting massacred and killed by that monster he called loyal. And this was all his fault. The gang, all he has created, he let him destroy EVERYTHING. That's why he came back, several years later, to destroy Micah once and for all (and don't tell me it was for the muneh, he heared the conversation between John and Micah and knew John was there for revenge, he says "The same as you I suppose"). Notice how he turns his head when Micah mentions Arthur. Dutch didn't kill John in the duel because he was his "son", even though he wasn't so sure if he betrayed him or not. (Also, if you activate invincibility in the last duel and kill Micah too early, Dutch will shot John and immediately regret and in fact he says "Oh...son"). I think this is one of the few flashes of lucidity Dutch had after Arthur's death (remember that in 1906, I think, he robbed a bank and also set fire to some places, I don't remember exactly, but let's just say he was creating mess). In the first game he's completely crazy, he doesn't even know exactly why he kills ("Sport, I guess..."). But then again, in his final speech, in a small and last flash of lucidity, he admits everything for the first time. He never actually had the capacity to change, to adapt to society, he is and was and always will be a monster (I don't mean he had always been a horrible person, but the things he did were always horrible; so in a certain sense he slowly changed in personality falling into madness and this happened because he hadn't been able to change and adapt to a new situation, the civilized world; in my opinion this character development reaches untouched peaks, amazing), his life and the whole things he created, the gang above all, was pointless, the only way to stop was to kill himself, ending that suffering began even before 1899. So in the end I find him the most tragic character of this series, also beacuse in my opinion he wasn't that bad and could redeem and have a decent demise, instead of dying horribly at the bottom of a mountain (and again I advise you to see my video about Dutch secret voiceline in RDR 1 and also his character model after the fall (it's not possible to see it in the game, but you can find it on Reddit)), his expression is petryfing. If you read all this I want to thank you, sorry if I made mistakes but English is not my mother language. I specify again that this is a PERSONAL OPINION and a little, maybe silly analisys made by a random guy on TH-cam, not officialy confirmed by anyone; take it for what it is.
Dutch is such a great character, that not only he serves the purpose of an idealistic hero turned villain by his own greed and frustration, he sort of makes Arthur's redemption a lot more necessary for the plot, because he will not only have a need to save his own soul, but the people around him, who were once saved by Dutch, and now are victims of their leader constant fall from grace as well. Also, having fucking traitorus Micah as a devil on his shoulder only speeds up his path to villany. The death of Hosea really threw a monkey wrench into the gang dynamics.
Spoilers below Anybody else notice that the more RED that is visible in DUTCH'S attire the more reckless and bloodthirsty he is? At the very beginning, he had none. He had his jacket on and the only red that was visible was in the pocket square of his vest. Then Valentine and Rhodes, just the back of vest and his pocket square. Almost like it is in the back of his mind and he is struggling to hold it back. Guarma, his vest oddly changes from being black in the front and red in the back to being much more noticeable red in the front...almost as though the recent events knocked that part of him loose. At the end with John in RDR2? Back to black on black, almost like he got control of himself from being away from Micah's poisonous influence. Which is why he shoots Micah and leaves John. RDR1, his shirt is pinkish...a bright shade of red, no black to be found. Almost like his bloodthirsty nature is now out on display to those who knew him.
I think personally he probably once had a decent heart and wanted to do good but just fell into desperation rather than adapting to the new world. But at the same time Dutch in a way does deserve his freedom outside of government, but uses sin or evil to justify this making his case rocky.
Your final question? It's freedom that you happened to use wickedness to achieve. When it comes to means and the end, there's no reason that the two must be conflated.
It could also be that he wanted to do right sort of like our earlier government did but as the population grew (camp members joined more n more) he needed more desperate measures to try and accommodate them all. But just like big gov he started to wanna line his own pockets too, n that’s why he dripped out compared to the rest of the gang. Random thought I’d had.
Clearly not - from the beginning he was willing to hurt others to gain for himself. That’s not a “decent heart”. That’s a bully living in the guise of gentleman vagabond
I did. It annoyed me. I never liked Dutch. He immediately seemed like a phony for me. Whenever someone goes out of their way to say they are good, that they care, or anything I instinctively think that’s BS. It also annoyed me that I had to level up his tent first before anyone else’s. I wanted to level up John’s because he had a wife and kid. I thought they should have it more. He was a sleaze bag since the beginning in my book. It only got worse as the Story continued. I was getting tired of hearing him say ONE MORE score. Plus, slowly doing acts that looked suspicious. I always thought he only cared about himself. I was just eating for the gang to figure it out [>
It's a rare thing when a character is so owned by the actor who plays him/her, much less the voice actor in a videogame; that it's impossible to imagine anyone stealing his/her act. But there you go. The best villain in a videogame ever, by miles and miles.
One of the hardest parts in Red Dead Redemption 2 for me was realizing that Dutch never truly cared about Arthur or the gang, they were just a means to an end
I've finished the game four times and still cannot get over the fact that dutch completely undermines Micah's misdeeds and Arthur's warnings only to abandon the ones so close to him for nothing more than his freedom
Are you kidding me?!?! Officially my fav channel, I was just about to load up Arthur & the gang, spend a little time crafting and hunting in the wilderness. Thank you for this!!
On the topic of Dutch going mad after his head injury, I started a more comprehensive playthrough and I'm now in Chapter 3 and Dutch actually said to me in camp, "You'll be the one to betray me" and I'm paraphrasing here but clearly his mental faculties are going earlier than the possible TBI case. In my playthrough Sean isn't even dead.
The character arc of Dutch in Red Dead 2 is so well done.. It's almost Shakespearian how this character gradually and slowly loses his grip as others in the gang try to usurp power.. And is finally ousted from the gang. It's one element of the game which would make it a fantastic tv drama..
I started replaying the story recently for the 4th time I just got on chapter 4 and I said to myself “I would love to see a analyzing Evil on Dutch” then to my surprise I see this in my recommendation. All I gotta say is perfect timing 🙏 (keep creating videos like this they are very interesting to watch)
Dutch reminds me in some way of Don Quixote de la Mancha, it almost appears that reading too many books, not just about the west world but about many topics in general, made his brain dryer and lose connection with his environment similar to how Don Quixote still thought of himself as a knight in an era where they didn't exist anymore.
I like how Arthur treats the women of the camp with respect and actually listens to them, while Dutch continously ignores them even when it's obvious some of their ideas are far better than any thing he had come up with. I also like the sheer amount of emotions Dutch has toward Bronte. It hurts him immensely that Bronte merely finds him a nuisance. It is killing him to know that he can never share a table with men like Bronte.
There are many factors that lead to dutch becoming who he is like stress, loss of faith, bad luck, micah, ego, people dying, no hosea, failed philosophy, not wanting to accept his wrongs. I think the reason why dutch killed micah is not because he cared about for john or arthur but when john asks him what are you doing here and he says same thing as you suppose. He wanted to kill micah is for himself he did it because he all those years from 1899-1907 he went mad and couldnt believe micah got to him and made him turn on john and arthur and dutch didnt help arthur because he couldnt accept that he was wrong and didnt want to go with micah because he was a rat Because he ruined his plans and goals of a new utopia of no established order or government where people can live free of economic and social constraints he sounds like a cult leader not outlaw or a teacher just a cult leader and a terrorist. Also please do more video game villains like baldur, vaas, pagan min, micah, makarov.
Dutch was always the way he was. It's literally in the first scene of the game with him giving some speech to encourage everyone and then you can find a note in his room later that explains he orchestrated his little speech moment to manipulate everyone. Something that meticulous, he tried to use for control and deceit. Also, the more you hear from John Marston and Hosea, the more you realize Dutch has always been whack. Like somebody else commented, in the game, the mask was only "falling off". But it's not surprising they wrote it this way, because if Dutch was the one actually changing, it would take value away from Arthur's change of heart. This game is about Arthur seeing through the bs, and choosing to then rise above it and to claim redemption for himself, just like John with the first game. That means far less if Dutch is becoming a more delusional madman the longer the game goes on as he moves further from being a "robin hood", which he never actually was.
A prewritten speech does not inherently imply manipulation, or at least, not malicious manipulation. It was a pep-talk, something to boost morale and keep people from losing themselves to despair. And I disagree that Dutch didn't change. While he was always violent and rash, prior to his head injury and the loss of Hosea it was always kept more or less in check, arguably even turned into a strength.
@@RaptorJesus The speech itself isn’t the manipulation, I wrote that assuming the connection would be made on the reader’s own when they realized Dutch premeditated a play on the vulnerability and critical situation the gang was in at the time. Also, a lot of people make the case that Dutch only changed for the worse during the events of RDR2 and they then cite Hosea, but Hosea and his dialogue in Chapter 1/2 are some of the major pieces of evidence suggesting the Dutch was only revealing who he really was more openly by 1899.
This is the best in-depth character analysis I've ever heard. I hope you have/will make more. I regret not paying much attention to the conversations of the main story for most of the beginning.
Head to keeps.com/vile to get 50% off your first order of hair loss treatment.
Hey great job! I was asking for this one! I would love one on Frieza from DBZ next if you’ve ever seen it. I think he’s an iconic villain.
Thank you for this one!
Can you analyze Kevin spacey
Could you analyze Kefka from Final Fantasy VI next?
Hey Vile Eye thanks for making this vid it was a good one! For the next vid may I recommend, Analysing Evil: Madara Uchiha from the Naruto series?
A detail I like about Dutch is his clothes. He might wear more expensive clothing (velvet coat and waistcoat?!! Dang!) but upon close inspection you can see that these clothes are worn, threadbare in places, stained and have holes. He's pretending at luxuary like he's pretending at compassion and nobility. It's a nice hint to his character.
That is a good detail
He has the tattered shnaz
He’s a lot like those old cartoons where you see a swindling fox who wears a top hat and waist coat but the top hat has a hole in the top & the waistcoat is patchy & missing buttons. Good observation btw
@@bruhdon4748 Thanks. I'm a historical fashon and costuming nerd. I can spot a loose thread a mile away 😅
Thoughts this was pretty obvious
Dutch and High Honor Arthur’s last moments together always stick with me, years after the games release. In his last moments, despite everything that Dutch had put him through, despite the fact that Dutch had left Arthur to die more than once, Arthur still loved him in a way. Instead of lamenting how he could fall so far, the last thing Arthur does is try to warn Dutch that Micah is a traitor, and tells him how he gave him everything. It’s probably the only time during the whole game we see Arthur so close to tears, and it very clearly strikes a major cord with Dutch. For the first time in the whole game, this man known for his grandiose speeches, has absolutely nothing to say, and almost appears utterly heartbroken. His friend, someone he effectively considers his surrogate son, and someone he knows that he’s hurt so much is lying before him dying, and he’s still attempting to protect him. And in that moment it’s like the reality of everything that Dutch had done just seems to rush in. All the lives he took, all the people he had lost, all of it has lead to this moment. The gang is destroyed, the closest thing he has to family is dead, and he is responsible. I think out of all the loss that Dutch experienced, Arthur’s death hit him the hardest, not just because of the fact that he lost someone he considered a son, but also because to Dutch, Arthur was everything that Dutch hoped to see in his perfect utopia. Arthur’s death signifies that the time for outlaws had passed, and that knowledge, along with the fact that Dutch had as good as killed Arthur himself, was something he likely thought of everyday till the day he died.
Underrated comment
The other time Arthur cried was when he told the nun he was afraid of dying and he talks about his son and wife who died it's the most heartbreaking scene I've ever seen
Dutch absolutely loved Arthur and John in the time we see before the game and even into it but events that transpired absolutely twisted the man into a shadow of who he was. Look at him in Red Dead Redemption 1. He's an absolute shell of a human, even by his own estimation.
@@kevindoesgaming77 Actually I think he was talking about Mary when he said that
The actor who played Dutch Benjamin Byron Davis said after he acted the scene where he has to leave Arthur (they all acted it out on a big stage for motion capture) he left the stage and cried his eyes out as Micah and Arthur continue their bits. I like to think that's an extension of Dutch's character and that he did the same in the story.
Dutch is more than anything a raging narcissist. There is a random camp encounter where Uncle calls him out on wanting to be "An American king, with the gang as his court and knights." And even though this happens fairly early in the game, Dutch immediately drops his facade, lowers his voice and basically threatens to kill Uncle. And I think that's because Uncle accidentally struck right into the core of Dutch's lies. He wants freedom, but only for himself. Of others he wants unquestioning loyalty. For himself, he wants sovereignty. You can see this in how Dutch expects to treat with powerful people as equals and breaks down when they refuse to entertain the notion. Bronte's betrayal stings him particularly harshly because it makes it clear that to Bronte, Dutch is merely a nuisance, a ridiculous hillbilly who doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Before agent Milton kills Hosea, Dutch is still confidently trying to negotiate a deal with him and is completely shocked when the agent refuses. Same with Leviticus Cornwall, Dutch only kills him after he treats him with contempt and refuses to make a deal with him as an equal. Dutch despises the leaders of modern society but absolutely loses it if they despise him back. He craves their respect and that's why he keeps trying to cause more and more mayhem and make a bigger splash. He cannot stand a society where he is irrelevant and when society inevitably moves in that direction, he responds by descending into full blown violent madness.
The best part about that particular interaction between Dutch and Uncle is how it concludes with Uncle defusing the situation with a backhanded joke that Dutch is forced to laugh at because he can't actually kill Uncle without completely destroying his cultivated image with the rest of the gang.
@@S3Cs4uN8 its funny that uncle was one of the few to survive Dutchs bs
@@S3Cs4uN8or they are just joking?
Their joking bud. Lets see when this was posted….DAMN 1 year? Brhb delete
I think the reason he killed bronte and Cornwall in a brutal manner was because Dutch knew they were more superior than him and he saw them as a threat because of the power they hold. Because of this he couldn’t reason with them and couldn’t get in their heads compared to how he did with colm who is someone inferior to Dutch. So the only way he felt he could deal with them, was murder and he did it out of fear along with rage.
in the epilogue John says of Dutch, “you see a man who had changed, I see a man who got found out for who he truly was.”
Arthur says something similar too in Ch. 6 to Sadie or John. One of them says how he’s changed and Arthur replies “yeah or maybe he just became more of who he really was” or something along those lines. I’m surprised more people didn’t notice these lines since it’s kind of telling that Dutch didn’t “change” it was us/Arthur who was blind to his actual personality until things got desperate
Rains Fall mentioned to Arthur that "A man never changes, you just see who they really are" when talking about Dutch. I dont remember the dialogue, its been years.
Lol and also later when Marston says that Dutch didn't change but was always like that. Arthur corrects him...
And in RDR1, he says he changed... even Marston says that when he matures even more.
The point is. We all hate Dutch for what he did. But he did used to be good.
@@TonyG8992 and that philosophy is dogshit. So on account of that, shall we forgo of all the fucked up shit Arthur did. No!
The game isn't one sided.
Guy Fawkes we only seem to accept the changing of people when it benefits our interests. I don’t think the human species has inherency to violence but I do think we are always closely tied to greed and self interest
Random fun fact: When you shoot/beat the teller during the trolley heist, Dutch scolds you. If you shoot/beat someone during the San Denis Bank heist he godamn cackles.
That might be compounded by the fact that Dutch outright hates Southerners.
Is it if you specifically beat one of the bankers in the bank or just any civilian?
@@jaimelannister1797 I wondered that. Going back it seems that he doesn't care who you shoot. He just laughs as long as you only do it once.
@@symmetrymilton4542 he really is a narcissistic killer. He's just really good at pretending he's not
@@BlackIce3190 Both the trolley heist and the saint Denis train robbery happen in the same area, same city.
What makes Dutch evil was one conflicting trait, "He put HIS OWN ego" ahead of the group. All this blabber about keeping everyone "safe" and "needing money" was HIS OWN SELFISH intent. He used people. The climatic scene at the end when Ms. Grimshaw gets shot, and he has ABSOLUTELY NO reaction. Even though she kept the camp together MORE than he did. He was soulless and selfish.
It always bothered me that he had zero reaction to Miss Grimshaw. They used to have some kind of relationship too. Just shows he never actually cared. SMH
@@LadyAstarionAncunin they were a thing when they were younger, but Dutch likes to ditch girls as they age and stick with younger girls. He does the same thing in the gang; ignores Molly and hits on the much younger Mary-Beth. “That’s what I like about college girls, I get older but they stay the same age”
If they do live action red dead movie they should cast Leo as Dutch uhehehehe
@@colebresnehen38I would 100% take Mary Beth over grimshaw too 🤢 you’re wild for wanting grimshaw chief
@@jake-ps4rhI mean if she was your partner from a young age you should have a strong bond that wouldnt care about age or looks. It's why most people love and grow old together instead going for younger and more attractive people
I’ve played through Red Dead Redemption 2 twice now. The first time, I went in completely and utterly blind. I hadn’t played the first game, nor had I heard of it beforehand. I believed in Dutch right up until Arthur and John blew up the bridge up in chapter 6, and I would have continued to believe in him if not for Arthur’s commentary.
My second play through, Dutches manipulation is more evident. His lies to the gang become clearer, and I found it hard to understand how Arthur, or anyone else couldn’t see that. But then I recalled how I had completely and utterly bought what Dutch preached. Dutch can turn people to his side, and keep them there. That’s his strength, manipulating people.
feel like a good part of it is that he believes his own spiel too. he's as devoted to that dream as anyone else... and was the last one to realize the truth.
I realized this too especially when John was captured and sent to prison and he described his capture I didn’t believe that Dutch would leave someone behind who had a father son relationship with each other but the whole time Dutch really only looked out for himself at least after the saint denis chapter since I also went in blind I believed everything Dutch said and even thought that John was the mole in the group since he was the only one captured instead of killed(I didn’t know rdr2 was a prequel to rdr and didn’t even know that John was the protagonist of the first one so I thought I just found out a huge plot point by thinking John was the mole)
Ya I didn't know Dutch's fate either and he seemed so charismatic and a great leader I truly believed in him I was ready to follow him to the gates of hell if necessary.
When your game is so good with characters and plot, the the characters manage to gaslight and manipulate players even though they aren't even real:
I was fine with following him until he left Arthur to die in Cornwall’s factory. Then I wanted to kill him.
I think the ultimate issue with Dutch was his inability to let go of comforts for his imagined utopia. He could easily have taken his gang into the wilderness to build a new life.
What he couldn’t let go of were the fine clothes, high minded books, cigars, alcohol, and attention. He wanted a utopia free of society, but with all of the comforts that only society can provide.
Excellent observation
Damn, very well said!
But he did take his gang to hide out in the wilderness. *multiple times actually* and they were still caught by Pinkertons
@@frogglen6350 cause he and the gang kept going back into towns, which lead to them getting caught.
@@Duke_Silver77 maybe you need to pay more attention. The gang literally can't survive on their own in the wilderness. They will die of starvation and lack of funds. Notice how they all complain to Arthur about starving if he doesn't hunt
It is also interesting to know that during the journey, each time Duch's band changes shelter, they sink deeper and deeper into the ground.
At first, they were in the mountains, then headed towards a jovial and flowery coast with a pretty view of the valley (near Valentine), then gradually towards an abandoned and cursed mansion then towards dangerous and dirty swamps. Finally, they finished their journey by going to an abominable cave once run by a vile and sick gang (Murfree Brood).
It seems that Duch's dream is sinking deeper and deeper into the ground, as if they are being rejected by the whole world. Duch and those who follows him will be rejected by the earth itself.
That's a nice catch I've never thought of this.
That whole game literally boiled down to 4 words: “I have a plan…”
You forgot the other 4 words. I don't know Dutch...
Just have faith
The three dots after symbolise so much more.
"We just need money"
“You always have a plan, Dutch.”
Even after completing the game 3 times, I am still not sure if Dutch has always been a ruthless greedy man or the game’s events turned him into one. I guess we will never know if he was truly honest at the start of the story or if it was just a facade. Great video by the way👍🏻
I think dutch was always the way he was. I think it's Arthur that changes. I mean if you look at the story at the beginning I think it's really sums up the gang. Dutch kills a girl in black water when things go bad and I wouldn't doubt it if that's happened before. When you have the choice to let the O'Driscoll in the barn go or to kill him I'm pretty sure dutch assumes Arthur would just kill him. By the end of the game Arthur has become soft and dutch is done pretending they are some righteous group doing what they do in the name of "freedom". I think Micah convinces him to cut the "dead weight" like he tells Arthur when you're near saint Dennis.
He was always bad. He was hoarding the gangs money and hiding it from them. The mask fell off when things started going south and his followers started waking up.
There’s a theory that during the escape from Saint Denis when the gang crashed the trolley car, Dutch may have damaged his brain in the crash it may explain his descent. But whose to say, it’s up to us to decide what made him this way.
I think that it was the events and Micah that ultimately corrupted him. I think he was decent at first, he pretty much raised Arthur and taught him a moral code. when Dutch kills the lady on Guarma, Arthur acts like it's the first time he's really ever committed cold blooded murder. and arthur has known him for awhile so yeah. that's my opinion.
Cult leaders (and that was what Dutch was a fact, a cult leader whom when questioned by loyalists I.E Arthur and John betrayed his ‘sons’), have a tendency to be very charming and believable until time reveals them for what they truly have always been. Dutch didn’t change this is who he always was similar to a Jim Jones character
My favorite little detail about Dutch is how well timed and intentional his use of "son" is. He only calls Arthur, John, etc, sons when he wants to motivate loyalty upon them, there are a couple of times when he chooses to call Arthur "brother" instead, often when Dutch is distracted... And several times where "son" is used to placate them. Most notable for me is when they're riding to Lagras for the croc mission, Arthur is questioning him and Dutch is getting angrier and angrier. When he crosses a line and Arthur sounds genuinely upset, and talks about how long he's been with him, Dutch has to visibly force himself to hold back. He almost struggles to get the "son" out, and he immediately adds on that Arthur's behavior is "hurting him". It's manipulation at its finest. I think my view of Dutch is that HE genuinely believes to want the best for people, but truly is a narcissist and someone who thrives on being the center of attention. Knowing these people would give their lives for him makes him feel powerful and makes him feel like he's right, while reinforcing his denial about all the sh-t he's done and all the pain he has brought, with Arthur's death leading to perhaps the first time he's ever seen himself more clearly... and the weight of that understanding (not even necessarily it needing to be Arthur - it being John or Hosea would work too- which is painful but Dutch has always been all about himself, ofc what would break his heart was HIS own actions) breaking his mind somewhat- a narcissist realizing the world does not revolve around them and that other people have thoughts and feelings of their own, that they directly influenced and caused pain over, being too much for Dutch to bear.
He doesn't feel fully there when he runs into John in the epilogue, and by the time RDR1 comes around he's already aware he's clinging to an idea that was only ever an illusion... But 1. he's too far gone to go back and 2. He STILL pushes into his denial even as he knows its not true. He claims there is no more time for "people like them", as though his moral goal is still superior and the government will never understand... But we know he knows he's wrong. At that point he just does not care- he kills mindlessly (the girl in the bank being a perfect example, he does it just to spite John, who he believes to behave as morally superior to him). His degradation is fascinating. I truly believe he was never a good person but I also very much think he was not fully *aware* of that and did care, a little, about them, in a very selfish way.
Or maybe he's playing me into thinking he did believe that to a degree. I really love what RDR2 did with him, it made his character so much better and memorable, which is not always how I feel in regards to certain rdr1 originals that made a return in the prequel.
this is 1000% cannon for me now. no one has ever described a narcissist coming to terms with themselves at a later age like you just did
wow he literally did use the gang as a power trip! he loved that they would willingly get bounties on their head just for being in his gang and that they’d do just about anything for him. when arthur and jack met ross and milton at the river, and arthur tells dutch they offered him his freedom in return for dutch, he said “why didn’t you take it?” i genuinely believe he was trying to get arthur to say something like “you’re my leader dutch, i’d do anything for you” just as a little power trip
A lot of people say that he might have never been a good person, but can you really pretend to be something you're not with people you live with for 20 something years?
No real human could and neither can Dutch. He must have gone into a worse direction as a person at some point, but I think we don't see the good Dutch even once in RDR2. He was already lost before the Blackwater ferry job, which becomes quite clear when you hear what the other gang members tell Arthur about it.
Dutch's policy in a nutshell:
"Why isn't he dead? Are you talking? Who told you to do that? You don't talk. You don't think. I think. You kill. It's a simple, fucking concept."-Odin, God of War: Ragnarok.
Tldr
I cant forget how dutch got angry and repeatedly mumbled “insists” to himself after Arthur insisted on john Abigail and jack leave while they can. And the scene where arthur was helping rains falls behind Dutch’s back.
That's when I knew it was all over.
Dutch is a Leader of course he is going to get angry.
"Oh you insist, you hear that arthur insists. Well in that case yes of course if you insist." I cant remember his exact words but you're so right the way he looked and talked after Arthur says I insist. Then Eagle fall's dad comes to tell arthur about his son "you've been helping this man Arthur?" and then dutch wants to come along and makes comments when arthur makes the plan of attack "of course you're the boss, whatever you say lead the way"
@@slicingonions4398 it was like:
Dutch: “John? Insist?”
Arthur: “Yeah… insist”
Dutch: “Of course, pal… I will see to it.” And then a little more dialogue after he says (under his breath
“He insists upon it. Insists…”
cult leader Dutch doesn't like it when his minions have thoughts of their own
11:30 I'd like to add that Dutch's horse, The Count, is an elite Arabian horse with a pure white coat, which sticks out from all of the other horses that belong to the gang considering Arabian horses are the most expensive and high quality of horses.
I thought it was a dutch warmblood...cuz you know his names dutch lol
Based on his clothing I say he’s a man of Class
I have the same horse early on lol
@@uasakura you can't get an albino Arabian which is the coat Dutch has the closest you can get is a pure white.
i was thinking it had something to do with the the 4 horseman of the apocalypse
Imagine if you could straight up kill Micah while he was still in jail, tell Dutch he was shot and died while you were trying to free him and then play the game as a happy sim, like Bully's Endless Summer chapter.
they would have fallen apart anyhow... but it would have either slowed, or at least softened, the fall i would say.
It would be a cool thing for them to have added, that's some new Vegas shit and I love that.
If they didn’t rob the train and ferry they would’ve lasted so much longer, Micah would get small law on them, but nothing big like the Pinkertons
@@taddad2641 probably with much less casualties
No. We need to just leave downes be. Thats how arthur got tuberculosis. If he did not had tb he would have fcked micah and we wouldeve play it more satisfied in my opinion
Dutch is the phrase “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” personified
Yeah like robbing people are very good intentions to begin with
@@speedking7224 well, from his mindset at least.
Mike White
Nah, I don't think that's all that accurate.
From what we come to see in the end, the idea that Dutch had any true good intentions beyond his own self enrichment seems dubious at best. He wasn't trying to make the world a better place or actually help the people in his gang. None of that shit was his main focus and you see that revealed in the end. The mask gets completely ripped off.
We're able to observe that all the good intentions Dutch would periodically claim to have, were most likely little more than manipulative, self-serving rhetoric he used to string his followers along; rhetoric that made his plans seem more worth while and altruistically grandiose, only he probably never truly intended upon following through on what he espoused. Essentially a carrot he put in front of his followers, in the pursuit of maintain and consolidate power and control to sustain his own personal benefit.
Most of, if not all of the good that Dutch's actions brought about were almost entirely an afterthought; it was just something that he could point to to further bolster his image and maintain trust of the people he was ultimately just using, but not the true ultimate goal. Those good results weren't the the focus of what he was doing, just a pleasant, personally beneficial side effect. Self enrichment and the self absorbed, reckless pursuit of it at the expense of everyone and everything around you, just doesn't scream "good intentions" to me.
@@donnydogpiss4533 fair enough
@@donnydogpiss4533 so your proof that he never had good intentions in the past are... his actions in the present? by that logic, anyone who does a bad deed ever was lying and manipulating during all of their past good deeds. if you want to believe a man who uncharacteristically became cruel and self-serving over the span of a few months after 20 years of being the opposite way, was just acting for the past 20 years and it can't be attributed to a more reasonable explanation like stress or mental illness or manipulation (from micah)... that's fine, it's your own personal interpretation, but your reasoning just doesn't make sense.
"Self enrichment and the self absorbed, reckless pursuit of it at the expense of everyone and everything around you" yes, he does act like this in the game. obviously those aren't good intentions, and we can never truly know what dutch was like beforehand but those who were at the blackwater heist described heidi mccourt's murder (arguably the start of dutch's moral downfall) as being out of character and unlike dutch.. so, that gives an idea of what dutch was like before. and the idea that he was "hiding his true self" for 20+ years is just not that logical. he could be cruel and ruthless if he wanted to, he doesn't need to hide that. most gang leaders were, look at Colm. people DO just change sometimes, especially as a result of the world around them changing in ways they cant handle.
also, ive seen lots of people say he didnt ever care about his gang members in the first place and that theory holds some merit but ive never seen someone claim he wasnt trying to change the world (or, keep the world from changing) if you think that wasnt his ultimate goal, then can i ask you what you do think he was fighting for...? "self-enrichment" is vague
One of the more interesting aspects to me is that between Hosea, Dutch, and Arthur, that makes three different gunbelt types, and how it speaks to their character
Hosea wore cavalry draw, which makes it easier to reach across your body, better on horseback (possibly while fleeing). This speaks to how he would really only use violence as a last resort.
Dutch wears both guns normally in our iconic gunslinger layout, allowing him to easily duel wield while standing. This shows his more confrontational personality as well as his violent tendencies and capacity to cause damage.
Arthur’s layout makes me happy, because it’s actually much more realistic than both of the other two. He wears the off-hand holster (the holster for the left hand sidearm) as essentially a second right handed holster. Why? Because our iconic “cowboys” and “gunslingers” historically, many DID carry two guns, but VERY rarely ever used both guns at the same time. Because duel wielding is, believe it or not, suuuuuper fucking inaccurate and a waste of ammunition especially in a gunfight. Arthur wearing this layout really shows how experienced he is compared to the rest of the game, not wearing it to look cool but out of practicality because he knows what he’s doing and has been the strong right arm of the gang for years by the time we meet him. It’s also likely he does this because he would’ve been in this line of work back when all they had to use was black powder pistols, which needed to be basically disassembled to reload and that took too long, so you’d draw your second right handed pistol and now you have 6 more shots. It shows how long Arthur has been in the shit and how well he knows to survive the violence of their life
underrated comment
Amazing comment
Would be great if the off hand holster didn't disapeared during cutscenes
I have also played Call of Duty before
Just wanted to add Arthur's holsters parallel his two surrogate father figure's holsters, Arthur's main hand holster is on his right hip in the classic gunslinger style, much like how Dutch wears his holsters.
Yet Arthur's off hand holster as you pointed out is meant for a righthanded draw, to draw from the offhand holster Arthur reaches across his body with his right arm, very similar to Hosea in that regard.
It's not important really, I just think it's neat that Arthur being taught by both Dutch and Hosea is somewhat reflected by how he wears his holsters.
God I've typed "holsters" too much for one comment.
Really glad how you pointed out at 14:40 the requirement to upgrade Dutch's tent before being able to upgrade other aspects. On my first playthrough I kind of wrote it off because the blind loyalty i had for him early in the game, on my second playthrough however, i loathed it and looked at it differently. Such an art piece of a game that gets better with each playthough, amazing analysis of this character, man!
Yes! I always thought it so was weird. Dutch always seemed to be off honestly, like he's faking everything
exacly
Well arthur also gets his tent upgraded. Even Hosea doesn't have his own tent let alone have it upgraded
@@ther0ach28 the player, as Arthur, was the manager of the camp funds. He was also, sort of, the Armory. I do find the fact that Hosea never has his own Tent strange. Even in chapter 4, he literally sleeps in a closet under the stairs at Shady Belle.
@@ellis51773 he gives up in chapter 2, and morphs into the ruthless outlaw he proclaimed to hate so much by the end of it all. Dutch has fooled everyone and himself for so long, it’s the end of a strongman in a way.
IMO the reason why Dutch shoots Micah and leaves is _not_ a direct result of him developing humility and realizing how evil Micah was. Rather, I believe *the reason why Dutch ever kept Micah around was to help him justify the depraved actions he always wanted to take.*
Think about it. _Every other character in the game_ regards Micah as pretty much the most despicable person possible. Dutch is the only exception, and all we get as explanation is a brief mention that Micah seemingly saved Dutch's life when they met, and Micah being sycophantic.
However, *there is one notable piece of value Micah consistently provides to Dutch, besides flattery.* Micah always enables Dutch's urges. And as Dutch admits in the first game, he just wants to do what's in his nature- So you can imagine why he'd attach himself to Micah, a man who encourages Dutch to do horrible nonsense, eventually over people like Hosea and Arthur who want Dutch to continue playing a role that he doesn't think suits him anymore.
But by 1907, Dutch's transformation is complete. He no longer feels a molecule of remorse in senseless murder. He doesn't need Micah anymore.
Honestly I agree
Micah to me always came across as a person who represented the kind of person dutch was hiding, so ofcourse dutch listens more to Micah because Micah wants to do everything he already wanted anyway
Interesting take
Dutch pretty much is like a demonized version of Robin Hood the entire thred of his character is a tarnished white knight that has been manipulated he is not a hero but doesn't feel like a villain he seems more like a former judge or sheriff of a relatively large town
@@studio-cultist9622 your right and if you notice, Micah hides from the gang/dutch in the beginning, over by strawberry. So its like, when he shows back up at camp you see the steady decline of dutch into depravity
@@studio-cultist9622 Plus, Micah never argued, disagreed, or doubted him once; that's why Dutch had no reason to question his "loyalty".
I always took Dutch's change in character as just seeing dutch through Arthur's eyes. Arthur had undying loyalty to Dutch, and after a while, Arthur just started to see Dutch as he always was without rose colored glasses.
*You have got to keep the faith*
A man torn between the times and what he believes is right, caught in the vile deeds that defined him. What a character
“Keep the faith, Strannix.”
He Insists
In the Shady Belle chapter of the game, if you go into Arthur’s Journal on one of the first pages, you see all the money that the gang has currently saved gathered up in a chart. The number in the Shady Belle chapter is just over $13,000. It’s stated that Dutch has this money in a secret chest in a hidden location. It’s very clear that even up to halfway through the game, they had more than enough money to use for an escape, Dutch however saw it differently.
I always thought about this, the gang certainly had enough money to leave before even Sean got shot, he really didn't want to leave and just wanted chaos
Another VERY interesting detail: on their way to Guarma, Dutch is very nonchalant about spending the gold they stole from the bank on very arbitrary things like bribing the captain; he doesn't attempt to preserve any of it, and, after killing the old woman in Guarma, he doesn't take the gold bar he gave her back. The robbery wasn't about the gold, it was about spiting both Bronte after his death and society
@@BratMilorad everything Dutch does is sort of a big fuck you to society
ONE MORE *SCORE*, ARTHUR!
As the child of a narcissistic parent, I immediately recognized the character of Dutch and knew how the story was going to play out when I started the game. And I fully resonated with and understood Arthur's loyalty and struggles with feelings of guilt because of the trauma bonded relationship he has with Dutch. Dutch is a poster child for narcissistic behaviors and how they affect the people around them and, believe me, from firsthand experience I can say with certainty that narcissistic people drag everyone down with them 100% of the time.
Cough cough amber heard. Cough cough Donald trump
@@wholethedogsout880 True.
My father was the same, dragged everyone around him to hell. Eventually we dragged ourselves back, and exacted a measure of reality to the man when me and my brother were old enough.
my brother played before me, and as i started playing he said “dad reminds me of dutch” and as i kept playing he definitely is my dad. he has a wonderful way with words in public, tricking everyone into thinking he’s the best man alive and cares about his family (or the gang in dutch’s case), when really he only cares about his own interests.
@@jamesadams2278 How many of us have the same manipulative asshole as their dad? Jesus christ
From bored boy to Robin Hood turned philosopher turned outlaw that descended into madness.
Dutch is a cautionary tale of a once good man that couldn’t change with the times and it turned his once great ideology into madness and polarization.
Robin Hood by definition is already an outlaw. Don't try to sound literate, please
@@derrickstorm6976 and the super rich create the situations which create the Robin Hoods
@@derrickstorm6976 Eat the rich lol
Well said. I agree 100% 👍🏿
The changing of the times brings out the evil in everyone and with the world changing around him. Dutch is one of them those who descended into not madness.
Marston: We ran in the same gang together. Under a fella called Dutch. We were all bad kids; lost, angry, and forgotten. He kinda saved us.
Abraham: And turned you into criminals?
Marston: Dutch didn't see it that way. We robbed banks, stole from the rich, and we gave the money to people who needed it more.
Abraham: So he was a revolutionary too? Like me?
Marston: I suppose. He saw that the system of power was rotten; that good people had been crushed for too long, and he believed that change could only succeed if it was brutal and relentless. Make America what he felt it was supposed to be.
Abraham: I like the sound of this, Dutch. Another violent idealist! Where is he now?
Marston: I don't know. But I gotta find him once I'm done with them two. In the end, he went insane. Lost faith in everything and everyone.
Just a beautiful quote. Thank you for reminding me how fantastic RDR is.
i love this quote, it so small and missable but really speaks to Dutch's character a lot.
and to me disproves the ever popular "dutch was evil all along" theory.
he's a much more complex character than that.
as an ex-anarchist, when you become disillusioned with an ideology or school of thought you put so much time and faith into, it really takes a toll, to the point it can feel like the whole world is crashing down around you.
You kill....
I kill.
You rob....
I rob.
Only difference I see is that I choose.
"Loyalty to the gang comes first" - Dutch
- Didn't help save Sean
- Didn't help break out Micah
- Didn't go out to look for John in the snow
- kept the money box Directly beside his tent and has his Tent as the first upgrade
- treats Molly as if she's nothing, even hitting on others while she's around
- left Arthur to die after finding the Cornwall Bonds
- left John to die after he was shot
- barely even acknowledge Seans death only saying
"I don't even wanna think about that right now"
- ignored every warning Hosea gave him.......
Dutch at the end of chapter 6
" *WHo iS beTRaYinG mE?* "
He also let John get arrested during the bank robbery
True, but the Micah jail one makes sense, like he said his face would be plastered all over west Elizabeth. Then again arthur had a bounty too...hm
love him or hate him, i think nobody can contest that dutch always has the best DRIP out of whole gang. doesnt matter what you make mc wear, you can never match dutch's finesse drip and swagger
ducci
1v1 me on Hanging dog ranch dawg
i try tomake arthur look like him with the gambler opulent vest, black striped work pants, white striped everyday shirt, classic roper boots with vaquero spurs in silver with arthurs hat or stalker hat
@Arthur Morgan is a way to say that a person has a good sense of style.
true but micah has some cool outfits to specifically his jackets
Greatest thing about these games is how they prove everything is mostly gray. Dutch may be a villain to us but the government and the changing society are the villains of his story. It's all about perspective.
Not really. Dutch was always an asshole and evil, self loving prick. He is a master manipulator who has no problem gaining a loyal following for his own benefit. He never cared about any of the gang members and was quick to replace them with the Natives once his old gang started to question him and fall appart. He's the quintessential Dicktator type. Society changing is neither good nor bad. It simply is. You can't fight it. You can't stop it. And it will always be happening. All this talk about rebelling that Dutch loved to preach was mostly bullshit. The only thing that Dutsch wanted and loved to do was cause constant chaos and problems. And while the government are not the good guys, it was always Dutsch who picked a fight fist. This guy robs a self made man and then has the nerve to get angry when Cornwall goes after him? Like nah, fuck you Dutch.
@@VHS_NEON Not only is this an exaggeration borne of you seemingly being triggered by a fictional character (because he reminds you of someone you don't like in real life), but NO ONE is genuinely evil. Good and evil are a sickness of the mind, and even the worst psychopath or pedophile imaginable is born broken, and such a fact is ultimately more deserving of pity than hatred: though we rightly should condemn their ACTIONS, any hatred beyond that does nothing to prevent evil and is far more likely to produce actions which perpetuate the wheel of suffering.
@@julianmarx2002 Are you saying that Adolf Hitler was not genuinely evil? Because he was 100% evil, regardless what he thought of himself. So yes, genuinely evil people do exist. Dutch was never a good man. Whenever he did a good thing, he always did it either in front of others so that they can see him, or he did it to gain something in the long run. Never out of pure kindness.
And no, pedophiles do not deserve pitty or forgiveness. They need to be hunted and put down without second thought.
@@VHS_NEON I feel like you're setting a trap but ill bite and argue not even Hitler was 100% evil. I'm not going to elaborate tho
@@slicingonions4398 A person that decided to gass multiple races of humans to death simply for being different is as evil as it gets.
I think Hosea’s death was the breaking point for Dutch. Hosea was the voice of reason and was actually an effective tactician who could reign in Dutch’s plans when they went too far off the rails. I also think Dutch had more respect for Hosea than he did for most people in the camp and genuinely admired him. It doesn’t help that the man who killed Hosea was pretty much the embodiment of the entity that Dutch spent his whole life railing against. After this moment, Dutch threw caution to the wind and was basically on a suicide mission to accomplish his goal or die trying, no matter who had to be manipulated or taken advantage of.
Hosea was already starting to lose faith in Dutch because of the trolley mission, where he doubts Dutch's plan. He was probably the closest one Dutch had, so he would've known if Dutch went too far or not. If he had made it to the end, he would've probably chosen Arthur's side.
Hosea may have been a father figure to all and a voice of reason, but Dutch didn't listen to him at all imo.
I think Hosea's death was what broke him, given he was the angel on his shoulder, but Micah's manipulation, metaphorically the devil on the other shoulder, is what pushed him to where he is at the end
Nothing is more telling of Dutch's character than his seeming lack of care for Arthur's condition as he's obviously suffering from TB towards the end of the game.
I wouldn't say he didn't care.
Am just happy Dutch didn't shot him.
That's mercy to me.
Uhhh what's TB never played
@@Whocares158 He definitely didn’t care, not once has he even acknowledged it throughout the story. What game are u playing bro
@Doomsday Joestar Jesus it's one of the most lethal illnesses to ever fuck up humanity lol. Tuberculosis!
@@SolusFather wouldn't say he didn't care. but he buried it. he ignored it, couldn't accept it. it got caught up in the lies he was telling himself to keep going and he didn't realize it until arthur was lying, dying, where he was.
Dutch is the true antagonist of the game.
And IMO, he is the best I've ever seen. The fact that you are his aly and see him become his true self over time, only to have him now be your enemy, it's handled perfectly.
definetly one of the most interesting video game characters out there.
Big agree bro
Yep. Micah is a major red herring. He's purposefully portrayed as the only real villain in this story. It blinds arthur and it even blinded John.
In fact, I think most of the fanbase genuinely and unironically believes that Micah is the cause of Dutch's downfall. He isn't. Micah is a psychopath, a sadist, and a sycophant. He's simple, easy to predict and an easy target for rightious anger by the fanbase.
Rockstar's devs certainly knew how to keep the less attentive people occupied with an easy villain, while keeping the actual true antagonist subtle and doubtful. Micah didn't cause the gang's downfall, it had been falling down for years already.
I believe fans of the first game would have caught on to this more easily, seeing as they knew Dutch's true nature beforehand. But also, and I don't hear this enough: in RDR, killing a lawman is considered dishonorable, and it's treated as a properly big deal. John is a good man in this game and respects individuals, even if he has a problem with the way america is evolving to a nation of greed and authoritarianism.
Compare this to how the gang treats individual lawmen in RDR2. They die by the dozens. Innocent men who are just doing their job, earning their paycheck. Men who can't return home to their families, families who will grieve them. Their only sin being that they were employed by a greedy excuse of a federal government. Sometimes they weren't even federal, and were just men upholding the law in general. (Remember that in RDR2 the federal state is growing, but hasn't truly tamed the entire west yet, hence why Marshall Leigh Johnson I believe is more of a local militia leader than an officer of US law enforcement, but perhaps my understanding of post-wild-west government is a bit lacking.)
Arthur and the gang kill innocents left and right. Hell, the game makes sure sometimes you just kill people because they sound a bit xenophobic (the guy on the casino boat and a stable boy at one point insult Javier for his ethnicity). Apparently being stupid is reason enough for the game to justify murder.
All of this is a major red flag for anybody who knew what red dead redemption really was about: good people caught in bad situations and trying their best to do what's right in the end. But killing innocent men of the law isn't that, and neither is killing bigots whose only crime was being an idiot.
Dutch's "idealism" is exactly that, idealistic. It's devoid of any sense of genuine realism. His ideals are that of a sort of anarcho-communist commune, but he showcases nothing but greed and apathy for his "commune" to begin with. The exact opposite of that ideal. Arthur and the other good ones just realized it far too late.
@@RedFloyd469 Got to say I love this response
Red Dead Redemption is more about him than Arthur and John, he is the hidden protagonist
You forgot about the dismissal and negligence of his Ol lady Molly O'Shea. A woman who deeply loved him and when she was killed, it didn't even faze Dutch.
It’s heavily implied that Micah was only running with the gang to get Dutch, playing multiple sides like the O’Driscolls and Pinkertons to his advantage.
It's implied by fans and nothing more
@@STEELGMBL everyone came to that conclusion because of the newspaper micah burned as kindling that shows dutch has a 1000 bounty. Whether that was before or after Blackwater we dont know. Considering arthur was said to have one worth 5000 and the pinkertons wanted to use him to get to dutch means hes worth way more than that
Not everything that happens in the game is Micah's fault. Dutch has just as much to blame, even more. Pearson was the one who set up the meeting with the O'Driscolls, Bill asked around where the gang was in Fleeting Joy, leading the Pinkertons to hear about it. Its laughable when fans think Micah is a character in the background twiddling his fingers and say he's been with the Pinkertons since the beginning or "Micah dressed in white for the Saint Denis robbery to stand out so the Pinkertons won't shoot him"
They were ALL getting shot at by a damn gattling gun, Micah was shooting back i in both the Saint Denis bank and at Lakey cabin, I highly doubt Agent Milton was like "shoot everyone EXCEPT Micah". Lol.
Did Micah obviously ratted them out like Milton said? Of course, after coming back from Guarma, A little after Fleeting Joy. The blame goes to Dutch as well, as Rains Fall said "A man never changes, he just shows who he truly is".
@@TonyG8992 you summed up what I've been trying to say for three years now. Thank you sir
@@TonyG8992 Nobody said everything that happens in the game is Micah's fault.
I think the best moment that perfectly highlights Dutch's character is when he plays chess in his head. This moment has so much depth to it, that it's astounding.
Firstly, it shows what he views his gang and enemies as: pieces to be used and manipulated. Despite saying that he views his gang as family, that isn't the case, and instead sees them as tools to use for his goals. This can be seen with the Native Americans, specifically Eagle Flies. He's able to convince Eagle Flies that he's helping him, and that what he's doing is the right thing. But in reality, Dutch is just using him as a piece on a chess board, which is why he doesn't care when he gets shot, as he had already accomplished his goal, and the piece was worthless to him.
Secondly, this also shows Dutch's poor abilities at planning and strategizing. Now I'm not very good at chess, but after doing research on good chess moves, I can say that the moves Dutch makes after the first 2 are awful. He plays the Dutch defense, which has a reputation for being a poor opening unless handled by a grandmaster. Unfortunately, Dutch is not a grandmaster, as he does not take advantage of the middle for either sides, and deploys both the black and white knights in pointless positions. It becomes clear to me that Dutch did not play the Dutch defense out of logic, but because it's named after him, showcasing his intense narcissm and self centered thinking.
Thirdly, it shows just how bad of a leader Dutch actually is, and how much he has isolated himself from his problems in the gang, and how little he cares about them. Instead of talking with his members after being gone for days on Guarma or brainstorming ideas on what to do next, he separates himself from them and plays chess in his head. A good leader is one that will work with their members and listen to them, as well as considering both their wellbeing and the overall organization. Dutch does neither, and instead works only with Micah, because Micah has done nothing but constantly compliment Dutch, and hasn't challenged him, as mentioned in this video.
I like the chess analysis, cool thinking
God damn. You're a genius.
I’m so happy I heard this. Great analysis.
Fantastic analysis. Not many people touch on the fact that Dutch is heavily narcissistic and only views the gang members as tools to be manipulated to further himself. He dresses extravagantly, carries expensive custom Schofield revolvers, even wears multiple gold rings and a gold pocket watch despite the gang being extremely poor and destitute in the beginning. It was clear to me from my first playthrough he was of a narcissistic personality. And Micah is clearly psychopathic, only taking pleasure at the expense of others, and often not being able to control his psychotic murderous impulses (as seen in Strawberry). Micah knowing the narcissistic mindset, is able to manipulate Dutch by feeding his self image and never challenging Dutchs mindset or self portayed image of a mastermind leader (I have a plan), which is the thing Dutch truly cares about most.
Edit: Spelling
Additionally to your chess observation he is reciting a variation of the "dutch defense" which involves black sending a pawn (Arthur/John/Eagle Flies) out in the opening rounds to be sacrificed for the king. He also never recites far enough to consider how his strategy plays out.
Reminds me of how Arthur was once kidnapped by the O'Driscolls and he was there for days and has to escape on his own and all the time I was thinking "where the hell is Dutch?? Not even searching anywhere?" And they are all sitting back at camp, of course being shocked at the sight of Arthur and the state he is in. And later, Arthur can ask Dutch in one of the camp conversations something like "you were looking for me, right? You would have come to save me?" And there was a tiny, almost unnoticable pause, before Dutch answers "Of course!"
And I thought yeah, Dutch... sure. Arthur, you loyal dog, can't you see what kind of a man he is?
I didn't trust Dutch as soon as I had found his speech note in Chapter 2. And he reminded me of an ex bf of mine, who uses very similar manipulation tactics. Whenever Dutch wanted something I screamed at my screen "do it yourself you moron, I'll go marry the love of my life, you go to hell!"
It broke my heart that I couldn't stop the catastrophe from unfolding... poor Arthur 😢
Yea the second i saw that speech note it reminded me of how manipulative dutch was supposed to be.
You didn't trust Dutch because he was evil in red dead 1. Lol😂
I played rdr 2 first and wasn’t aware of anything that happened in rdr 1. I literally didn’t even know John was the protagonist. That being said I didn’t find it one bit strange that Dutch didn’t try save Arthur after he gets captured. After many missions end you have the choice to free roam as Arthur for many days until a gang member goes looking for you so the reason Dutch didn’t send anyone after Arthur in this instance I believe is because Dutch wasn’t really aware that he was captured.
@@TheOddball28 But the thing is, Arthur said to meet back at a certain spot after the meeting. The fact that Dutch didn't even think it was weird, suggests to me that he abandoned him
@@JMR_2028 that is true, I recently replayed that mission and forgot about that detail at the time i wrote that comment so that’s definitely something strange. If I was Dutch I would either look for Arthur with Micah or send at least 2 or 3 of the best gang members (maybe 1 good tracker like Charles) to look for Arthur. Since that didn’t happen I think you might be right.
Dutch was definitely a man who had a vision for what America should be despite it's blatant brutality and freedom. His tragic descent is one that is no doubt poignant and quintessential and also something that everyone can learn from. This was a beautifully thorough analysis of the character.
As a suggestion I'd like to see Aku from Samurai Jack be analyzed.
The irony in Americans was truly free when their master was an ocean away. Today America has become everything they was fighting against, but worse. Americansdon't even have freedom within their own homes...
@@thedude2916 Funniest part (as a brit myself) is that the yanks rebelled against us, because of taxes, yet they pay more tax today than we do 🤣
Your suggestion for a Aku analysis is one of the greatest ideas in a hot minute brother
@@auralchemist3987 Thank you very much.
@@KenyaTheMighty Hey I like to call a spade a spade give credit where credits due game respects game you're saying what I thought before I suggested some time back that he do videos on Vicious from Cowboy Bebop and the Lich from Adventure Time I'd still love to see those
I’m so glad you chose to analyze Dutch! Heard several interpretations of this character, but I’ve been dying to hear your perspective.
He’s also the reason I went to Tahiti 😅
Did ya have the mangoes?
They were really fresh and more of an orange color
did you take the trolley in saint denis to get there?
What's Tahiti like?
What's next timbuktu?!
I think the most telling aspect of this man is that in every ending, he has nothing to say to a dying Arthur. A man he seemingly thought of as his son. He reminds me a lot of Abraham Reyes from RDR1. An idealistic sociopath that uses people to get what he wants. But still with pangs of emotion when faced with certain situations. I think these people are so commonly in leadership roles and Rockstar does a great job of showing you not only what draws people to them, but the ultimate inhumanity of them.
And that's exactly why John disliked Reyes: He saw a lot of Dutch in the man and not in a good way. Reyes even openly said that he admired Dutch as another "violent idealist."
The guy was a classic Charles Manson type, he was legit a cult leader and manipulator. I don't think that there was ever a change in his character, the mask just slipped when things started getting desperate. By that point he was done with using his silver tongue to convince and manipulate his gang into seeing things his way, he was only interested surrounding himself with sycophants who told him what he wanted to hear and never questioned his orders
You say he didn't change, then point out he was done using his old ways, implying he changed...
@@Edax_Royeaux it's not a change though. He stayed fundamentally the same person throughout except I'm the early days he was able to mask alot of who he was
I always loved the Civil war veteran that Arthur become buddy's with. He made me think this is what the gang could do if they just stopped stealing and got some land.
He is the man Arthur could have been if he wasn't terminally ill. Both have faced hardship and trauma but finds solace and contentment in the beauty and peacefulness of nature.
Or that one lady Arthur helped to hunt, they could of easily lived like she did and even build themselves a home
The thing that revealed Dutch's character the most, at least for me, was something he said to Bronte shortly before he killed him. When Bronte tells Dutch he's nothing, Dutch coldly responds, "I possess things that you will never understand". It's great dialogue, because that's PRECISELY what a narcissist thinks. Narcissists struggle with terrible insecurity, but they also consider the people around them as lesser beings that literally CAN'T understand them. It also explains the purpose of going after Bronte perfectly. Dutch could never explain to someone like Arthur or Hosea the TRUE reason Bronte needed to die. They'd never understand that he deserved death for the disrespect of harming Dutch, for endangering Dutch, for having the audacity to consider himself the same tier of living being as Dutch. THAT'S why Dutch wanted him dead.
That's not something Dutch would've done before, but the struggles the gang went through stripped them bare to their cores: Dutch, at his core, is an awful person; a narcissistic criminal who'd violently drown you for the crime of slighting him. Arthur, at his core, is a conflicted man who wishes he was better. John, at his core, is a man who loves his family. Sadie, at her core, is a woman with love for those close and wrath for those who hurt them. All of them were pushed to the edge, and at the edge, they lost the luxury of their facades, and became who they were deep down.
Colm O'Driscoll is the embodiment of what happens when you take Dutch and strip him away of all the speeches and idealism. Ultimately, Dutch wants chaos under a delusional belief of entitlement. He fancies himself a leader, but the fact he has to constantly remind everyone about his leadership shows how insecure he actually is.
It’s why that one traitor in the gang before 1899 actually discovered about Dutch. He was killed for discovering the truth and trying to awaken the gang from Dutch. That this traitor was the real man who told Arthur that revenge is a fools game.
I always saw Micah as an agent of chaos whose only cause is to bring pain and misery to everyone. He doesn't feel for anyone or anything. He decided to be Dutch's right-hand man is to cause more chaos with Dutch's resources. This is also why I think he was playing so many sides. I remember reading a letter from his brother that he got. His brother seemed to appreciate the fact that he tried to reach out but he said that if he tries to contact him or his family again, he'll kill him. From what I remember, they used to ride together but after his brother settled down and became a family man, he thought of Micah as this cloud of evil and chaos that no one should ever be in.
I'm also wondering if Micah creeped on his nieces. In several camp interactions we see him flirting with women inappropriately, and given how in that letter his brother specifically mentioned, "protecting his daughters from all that is evil in this world" it's not a stretch to assume something happened there
If you go micah camp near strawberry you find a newspaper clip him and his father killing a family also a part of a wanted poster for a $1000 for Dutch he was always the rat!
@@AFanOfCinema shit glad i wasnt the only one who thought that
Just one detail: If you look around the camp at one point, you'll find the script for one of Dutch's "inpromptu" speeches. These, too, were parts of his manipulations, giving the impression that he was swept off by feelings and emotions, when the speeches actually were well prepared in order to further seduce his followers. Otherwise, this video was a great analysis on an important character of my all time favourite game.
Oh really? That’s super cool
Writing down and preparing speeches isnt a sign of "manipulation" lol lots of people in position of leadership will do this quite alot. Its why he is such a good speaker and most likely something he has been doing from a young age.
@@MistahJay7 Well, that is true. But it is manipulation when you pretend that you're improvising. Surely not Dutch's greatest sin, and even Winston Churchill joked that all his best improvisations were carefully prepared. But still worth mentioning in this context, I thought.
@@MistahJay7 yeah a prepared speech on it's own isn't a sign of manipulation, but when you play it off as a spur of the moment, heartfelt swell of emotion that's coming off the top of your head, that's what the people you're making it to believe making them more likely to be receptive to it ..and you've carefully written down what you're going to say, how you're going to say it and are going for maximum impact, that kind of is.
So yeah, the speech being prepared isn't manipulative on it's own but pretending it was impromptu definitely is.
@@cain666 it’s manipulation but it should be stated it isn’t a type of manipulation that is malicious in anyway it’s just a result of ego wanting to seem like he can come up with great speeches on the fly when they are rehearsed.
The fact Dutch shot Micah not just to get revenge but as a way of finding redemption for himself, and finding some sort of closure is just brilliant
I would argue it's to save his own skin. Maybe a part of him is worried about his redemption, but not enough to turn himself in.
@@videonmode8649 Well, maybe true, however Dutch had too much resentment towards the law that I don't think he would consider turning himself in to be redemption.
@@yellow_flash525 I don't think that Dutch is wrong on that either lol
Nah not redemption, that was clearly revenge lmao... You do realize what ends up happening in RDR1? Right?
@@videonmode8649
It was to save his own skin...
This is from the same man who, 12 years after shooting Micah, will jump from a cliff instead of letting John Marston take him in or take him down.
Dutch had to feel like he was in control the entire time.
"We can't always fight nature. We can't fight change, we can't fight gravity, we can't fight nothin'. My whole life, all I ever did was fight..."
- Dutch van der Linde
- Gets criticised once
- then fucking dies
"I'm a woman and the strongest character, because Rockstar shat the bed with it's SJW trash."
-Sadie Adler
She can fight and never lose.... unless a cutscene needs to happen and Abigail need to be shown off as kewl.
@@revisit8480 I don't remember that dialogue, I must have missed it.
But honestly, pretty much every main character fights and never loses.
This sums up Dutch.
He tried to fight everyone and everything just to prove he's right. He didn't accept that west world is changing. Capitalism is soon coming. Govt orders are changing he was never ready to accept the things. He can't handle his people living him. And Micah just fed him that. All dutch wanted to hear. Dutch never wanted to be questioned just followed. That's one path to madness to you and to the people in your surrounding!
@@revisit8480 Pretty sure she got stabbed my Micah and only survived because Dutch shot him? That was her losing vs Micah.
Imagine still banging on about ‘SJWs’ in 2022. I bet you still watch Ben Shapiro destroying feminists with ‘facts and logic’ 💀 Grow up, stop crying about video game characters and get a job
Fun fact: Dutch’s speech at 29:36 is actually said in RD2, just before He and Arthur jump off a cliff into a river.
14:38 to your point about the tents, this was present all the way back in the first Red Dead Redemption game too. During the mission where John finally catches up to Dutch, you can take a slight detour in the cave system Dutch's new gang is using as a hideout. There you'll find a very nice curtain and behind it a very lavish washroom. The Indians he convinced to join him and the outlaws still riding with him have to make do with cots and old blankets. But not Dutch. He gets to live in luxury. That's why the stuff with Bronte just clicked with me. Of course Dutch tries to buddy up to that dickhead. Bronte is living exactly the kind of life Dutch wants for himself.
According to Benjamin Byron Davis, meeting Angelo Bronte was the beginning of Dutch's sanity slippage: Because at first, Dutch admired Bronte because he was the man he wished to be, but ended up disgusted after seeing how Bronte behaves like a tyrant, treating others like trash.
It reminds me of a mission with John, Arthur says " He wouldn't run of to a cave somewhere, gos against everything he stands for".
A bunch of clever foreshadowing in RDR 2
Ironically his first gang would end in a cave and his last stand was in a mountain cave where he ended his own life by falling from a mountain.
Also, I think Micah deserves his own analyzing evil😂
Ehhh not really, Micah is not as well written than the other characters and his whole purpose is to be a yes man to Dutch as well as be a bad influence to him.
@@AbdoAbdo-ix1bo Not as well wriiten as Dutch but still intresting. The he seems to actually care about his brother. And its intresting How He also is againts the Whole debt collecting thing. I think he is a great character very much a sociopath.
I’d be down to watch that but tbh I feel like Micah is literally just pure evil there’s not really much to go into aside from his origin
@@banchan7546 I disagree I think he is just a run of the mill outlaw.
@@AbdoAbdo-ix1bo I can see that if we’re basing him off reality but when you compare him with the rest of the van der linde’s who have some version of a code he just seems evil
Honestly I believe the death of Hosea and Lenny in the Saint Denis bank job was deeply symbolic to the death of the gang. Or at least the start of the death. The death of Hosea being the death of the old and wise, and the death of Lenny being the death of the young vigor the gang had.
Well put
"No past, and no future". Makes narrative sense.
Yeah. As soon as I saw Lenny drop I had a bad feeling.
@@kanyewests6676 right he was my fav non playable gang member
Hosea often reigned Dutch's most violent impulses in, after Hosea died nothing held Dutch back (which only became worse because of Micah's manipulation and evil whispers), not even Arthur could do anything to stop it.
Dutch is the idea of "it's easy to be a righteous and moral man when nothing is challenging those morals "
Damn
Dutch is idealistic man who lived in a lie so deep that he trully believed it. That said, once he realised he was wrong, he couldn't stomach admitting it, and took the coward way out. He is a coward when it takes to admit he made a mistake, and that might just be his biggest flaw, he didn't choose to lie to himself, he just did, but he chose to leave Arthur to die when he realised Arthur was right.
Dutch might've had a saving grace but his ego and cowardice ruined it.
Arthur was gonna die either way. Would've been awkward if Dutch tried to drag him off the mountain while Micah's watching them.
@@melvinbigsmokeharris7640 He knew Micah was the rat, all he had to do is take him out right there, he saw Micah shoot Miss Grimshaw, he saw Arthur was being sincere and he just knew, which is why he ended up killing him anyway on top of the mountain many years later, but still, even if Arthur was dying, he ran away like a coward.
@@Obi-WanKannabis
dutch is not a coward.
i'm willing to bet the reason he walked away was simply due to the stress of the situation.
seeing what is essentially his adopted son dying, and realizing that he was part of the gangs downfall, just drove him past the breaking point.
like, you're gonna tell me you've never been in a situation so stressful, that your brain stops working properly, and you have to just walk away from it?
dutch is many things, good and bad, but a coward he is not.
@@a_loyal_kiwi88 He's certainly brave when it comes to fighting, but he is a coward when it comes to admitting his faults, and that to me is a type of cowardice. He runs away instead of admitting he's wrong.
> like, you're gonna tell me you've never been in a situation so stressful, that your brain stops working properly, and you have to just walk away from it?
Sure, but I'm not a leader, and if I am faced with overwhelming evidence that I'm wrong the least I can do is not leave them to die. What he did is what a leader should never do.
@@Obi-WanKannabis Thats not even the first time Dutch left Arthur to die either , When Arthur was about to get stabbed in an earlier mission dutch saw and just walked away. He could have easily helped.
Dutch is the most brilliant depiction of a severely complex, traumatised character I’ve ever seen in a game. Everything you said about how he recruited people for his gang just screams manipulative. They had no choice but to be loyal because of everything he “done” for them. I don’t think he seen it that way, but he did. Hosea was his moral compass. And you could literally see him go off course after Guarma. Mind you, I still believe Dutch got a head injury during the trolley robbery, resulting in an exacerbation of his mental health issues (because god knows he had them lol). An Acquired Brain Injury can result in personality changes/exacerbation of already present personality issues so it makes sense. Plus the trauma of the boat sinking, the absolute carnage on Guarma and losing Hosea - horrific trauma like that would have anyone suffering. His paranoia and need to kill just get worse, he’s had a chaotic life and really, he wouldn’t have been able to cope with living off the land. I also think Micah is just as bad, if not worse. He didn’t hide it. And then he took his chance as soon as he realised Dutch was going off the rails. The whole gang is a group of people who’ve suffered trauma and they have this bond because of the things they experienced. The only few who seemed to have any sort of self awareness is the likes of Arthur, John, Abigail, Charles?? Javier to an extent perhaps? Me, being an empath lmao, I do hold the belief Dutch did have the gangs best interests at heart and I’ll die on this hill. But I think Micah really got inside his head, not saying Dutch is a saint or anything, but Micah really poisoned him.
Javier knew to a somewhat decent extent. But he was just to loyal to actually leave dutch and side with Arthur. He even shows his reluctance when he points his gun in the air rather than point it at John and arthur. He even implies that John was like a brother to him right after they got him from the mountain. Really sucks since he was one of my favs. If the members had still been alive than I'm sure Javier would've sided with arthur or the situation would've never happened in the first place
i dont think dutch ever had their best interests at heart. only because you stated earlier about the manner he recruited each individual member. i think it was a matter of the mask slowly slipping off him towards the end (along with what you stated about the brain injury. very interesting!) he might’ve been good at one point; maybe when he was raising arthur. he had to be considering the way everyone fully believed in him. but i also think he used their blind loyalty to his advantage. he is HUGE on loyalty and i think thats a combination of his trauma and how well he gets to use/manipulate others based on how much faith they put in him. unfortunately after hosea (as you said), no one could fill that role. i know dutch even said to arthur that hes starting to sound like hosea and even hosea told dutch before he died that dutch would “damn [them] all”.
An important detail about Micah is that he’s not a good manipulator only when Dutch is starting to break he gets into his head by appeasing him not telling him his plans will fail but they are brilliant and giving him blind loyalty something Dutch craves for during Chapter 6 and because he is fuelling Dutches ego he makes him his right hand man and abandons Arthur and John which is really sick of him to do considering they are basically his sons and he has brought them into this life and now leaves those responsibilities
Worst part about it? He only realises what is actually going on THROUGH Arthur’s death (Mainly his High Honour death) has he tells Dutch “I gave you all I had… I did..” the real Dutch comes back for a few seconds and seeing what he has done leaves his gang behind ashamed of what he has done
I agree completely
After the trolley, Dutch basically became Antonio Brown.
Dutch is one of the most brilliantly written villains ever
I've always interpreted Dutch as being a narcissist or at the very least having narcissistic tendencies that worsen as the game progresses. Dutch basically has no concept of constructive criticism and sees anyone questioning his decisions as a threat to his leadership. The only person who Dutch ever allowed to criticize him was Hosea and after he died every thing went downhill and his paranoia started to overwhelm him. In Dutch's mind he can never admit that he's at fault. Micah picked up on this immediately and started playing into Dutch's narcissism by becoming his yes man. Dutch essentially views loyalty as doing whatever he says without question. So when Arthur and John begin openly questioning his decisions he sees it as a form of betrayal. With Hosea gone and Arthur and John becoming potential threats to his leadership, he turns to Micah to fill the role of second in command. It ends up costing him everything in the end... and he knows it.
Well, this sums up things better than the video.
@@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457 shut up
No way. You’re my favorite TH-camr now. First Walt, then Tony, and now Dutch? Hell yeah!
Griffith too!
@@joshfournier9390 and warden Norton, Michael Corleone, Hannibal, Daniel Plainview, Patrick Bateman etc. I’m looking forward to much more very soon.
And Stephen and Mr. Candy
This channel really is amazing. He’s doing all our favorite characters
Idk if anyone has talked about this but in the mission where he goes fishing with Hosea and Arthur, he says something along the lines of: “you know… I think we’re going to be okay, whenever I see us together; it gives me hope. As long as you two are standing by me, I know everything’s going to work out.” This to me invokes the feeling that Dutch was slowly breaking down and knew that things were changing rapidly, but as long as he had a man who he saw as a father figure/mentor and a man who he saw as his own son/brother; he’d power through and keep going. It’s subtle hints like these that really define Dutch as a character and it makes sense as he ends up losing his life-long mentor and basically his son because of those hasty decisions that he makes later on. You can even see the sorrow in his expression when Molly gets shot but he holds back in order to hide his fear.
I think it’s interesting that Dutch’s normal outfit has black at the front and red at the back showing how the gang members are blinded by his charisma and can’t see the evil within him which is represented by red. And then his Guarma outfit has the red at the front which i think shows how this is maybe the first time it is becoming clear to Arthur in particular, how corrupted Dutch has become. This is also done with Micah in how his normal outfit has a red shirt presenting how he is clearly evil, while on Guarma he has a black shirt which shows how Dutch is blind to Micah’s negative influence on him.
I never thought of it like that.
Hosea wears blue sometimes.
@@shnubdawg7730 thats a good point. blue could represent a sort of goodness considering that in Arthur’s default outfits have a lot of blue on them as well. Also that on the ferry mission in act 4 your outfit changes between blue for good honour and red for bad.
I also like the sort of reverse symbolism Rockstar did with Micah wearing the white (good) hat, and Arthur with a black (evil) one. In old Black and White cowboy films, the color of the characters hat was an easy way to tell what "side" they were on, but Rockstar kinda flipped the meanings around.
@@knightmare1267 please stop blowing my mind. I’m not sober.
@@knightmare1267 Micah’s outfit comes together with that, in how he’s truely evil shown by his red shirt which Dutch is blind to, represented by his black coat and then with the white hat to make it seem like he’s a good person.
The way I see Dutch after 6+ playthroughs. He wasn't always an evil man. Yes he was a narcissist with a messiah complex who liked to rob people, but he clearly had his own code he kept to and cared deeply for his "family" around him, even if just to the extent they looked up to him.
He simply did not know how to handle his world crumbling around him, so he burrowed into what he knows will keep himself safe and alive a little longer, causing him to commit the evil acts we see(and hear about in regards to the girl on the ferry). You can see his regret and realization for how badly he messed up with Arthur in the high honor ending, so deep down he still had that love in his heart, it was just overshadowed by his desire to survive.
I have basically the same opinion and honestly I don't understand why someone says he used his gang like an army just to aquire glory and fame, he surely was a narcissist but he cared about Arthur and the others. Also, many people seem to forget that he progressively loses his mental sanity, in the first game he's a broken man, a killing machine (he doesn't even know what he's doing at this point, saying that he kills "For sport, I guess...") that has few flashes of lucidity. That's why I consider him one of the best fictional characters I know and the most tragic of this series.
@@jocatorejenerico I know his decent was so well written he went from being a gang leader who cared for his gang like family to manipulating a group of people who lost everything (the native Americans from rdr 1) to do his bidding
I don’t believe he was ever good, he left Arthur for dead, when the gang and the Indians attacked the oil company. Why would he have felt remorse for Arthur’s death if he had purposely tried to kill him earlier in the game. John and Abigail included too. He only wanted to save the members who didn’t question him like Micah
@@GotUrRain Notice that just two missions before, in "Favored Sons", he saves Arthur from the army. He could have simply run away and let the soldiers shoot Arthur, but he risked his life to save him, why? In my opininon Micah's manipulation made him think Arthur was the traitor with John, he was sure about the latter but remained uncertain with Arthur until that mission when he had the (wrong) confirmation Arthur was a traitor, the same man he had raised for twenty years like a son. You could tell me that he was bad to listen to Micah instead of the other gang members, but he was in my opinion in a very weak mental state, THE RAT noticed that and took advantage of it.
@@jocatorejenerico He only did that because he still needed to use Arthur lmao
I think Dutch didn’t want John out of prison simply because he was afraid that John will reveal that he didn’t save him even tho he could have. Thats an even more selfish and manipulative reason than thinking that he is simply just a traitor.
Just when I thought I couldn't love this channel anymore then I already did. One of if not my favorite game of all time. Cheers man
Haha, when I saw the video I thought the same, good to see another RDR2 fan :)
@@navego5477 RDR2 has the best antagonist and protagonist in Gaming
@@hulkbelowall9532 Facts Brother
My thoughts exactly. Even though this channel focuses on TV and film mainly I think RDR is genuinely on par with some of the best films out there.
Quick side not, do you think John Marston would be a good character for this format? Considering all the mad things he done all for selfish yet noble reasons.
@@zh2266 I don't think so. John does a lot of bad, but he isn't evil at heart. I think he's more of a grey area.
I think Dutch is someone that's always had a massive ego and when things dont go his way he loses control. In the beginning, things are going well for him and with the support of arthur and hosea who were able to lead him in the right direction. But when hosea died, things went out the window and his ego couldn't handle it. His goals and desires became bigger and micah got in his head and twisted his mind and his ego grew and got out of control. That's my opinion on him
I assumed he went nuts from syphilis and Micah exploited his ego
Dutch and Arthur are the most COMPLEX characters I’ve ever come across
This is one of my favorite things about Red Dead Redemption. The characters are so well realized and likeable that you start to forget that they're all criminals who rob and kill for selfish reasons. It works so well because you begin to forget you're the bad guy and it really lets you assimilate into your role as an outlaw who forgets their way of life is wrong because they've been living that way for so long.
My perspective is that the difference between Arthur and Dutch is how people react to change that is beyond our control. You can either accept reality for what it is and do your best with what your given, or you can try to attempt to resist it which usually is just a delusion. I don't think Dutch was a bad person always, he is the result of what happens when an unstoppable force threatens a mindset that is unwilling to adapt or admit defeat. Writing him off as inherently bad seems dangerous to me because most people have a similar mindset, most people might have more in common than what is comfortable to admit.
A 2nd bit of evidence is that it's clear that Hosea and Arthur recognized some redeeming qualities in him outside his charisma, neither of them seem gullible enough to follow a liar for that long.
You’re right, especially about hosea! He’s a wise man that lived a life before Dutch. That said, even the most savvy people can be roped in by charismatic, manipulative narcissists
But. I don’t think Dutch was always as bad as he was at the end of the game. He definitely changes as he’s being in turn manipulated by Micah. At the start he looked after Sadie, he cared for his gang members… 20 years of doing that doesn’t just come crashing to a halt for no reason.
I think that’s the genius of the writing tbh, at some point in our lives I think most of us have seen someone we admire being less astray in some way, or make a choice we disapprove of, because of someone’s persuasion.
Lead astray*
Although I'm not a criminal, I can relate to Dutch. Especially when Arthur said "We're living in a world we no longer understand, full of people who don't want us anymore". I relate to that 💯.
Dutch is a sociopath, he manipulates people to suit his needs with his charm or if necessary, violence. He only pretends to care about people if they fit his agenda, he doesn't feel bad when one of the crew dies, he only feels bad that it's going to make getting what he wants harder. He pretends to be empathetic and knows how to use other people's emotions to manipulate them.
Micah is a psychopath, like Dutch he doesn't feel empathy for his companions or his victims and does whatever he wants to suit his agenda. He is much quicker to physical violence which could partially be because he's not as smart as Dutch but more likely it's just the way his brain is wired, other people are basically just objects to him and he doesn't care whether they live or die as long as he gets what he wants. He is a terrible influence on Dutch because deep down they know they are wired the same, Micah just takes a more direct route when it comes to getting what he wants.
Arthur and Hosea weren't gullible, they just overlooked the tiny cracks in Dutch's facade in the same way you might not see the severe depression being hidden by a friend who always seems to be laughing until one day they try to commit suicide. Sometimes it's not obvious until it's too late and then you'll look back and see all the subtle warning signs that you either ignored or failed to acknowledge. In a way it could be said that Dutch isn't actually lying, he genuinely wants what he preaches, they've just failed to realise that what he wants and what they want might not be the same thing.
Dutch is honestly one of the most fascinating and complex characters in video games IMO. There are so many layers to his narcissism, charisma, and pathology that I could spend days dissecting. He's like an evil Don Quixote. He believes in a dream so profoundly, that he murders, lies, and abuses anyone who either hinders the path to that dream, or emotionally or psychologically breaks down people who he sees as useful assets to accomplishing that dream. His abuse is so subtle that you can only pick on hints of it if you're looking carefully and trying not to get swept up in his charisma. And because he believes he's doing all of this for a righteous cause, his narcissism makes it so that he does not understand why what he's doing is evil. It's only when reality starts crashing in on him that the Old West is fading and that his dream is exactly that--a dream--that he begins to unravel and become more and more depraved.
Well It's not like Don Quixote is not evil lol
Dutch is the most complicating character i have ever seen. After years people are still talking about who he really is. Amazing job Rockstar.
Yeah is definitely the best written in video games I’ve ever seen and I didn’t even like rdr2 that much granted I mainly hated the gameplay but found the story and characters amazing though
Don't forget that he doesn't start going "crazy" until he bangs his head. I honestly think that's when shit hits the fan. Him hitting his head that hard then making increasingly more aggressive moves is very curious. I would bet he did some real damage there and all his inhibitions went out the window.
@@plugshirt1762 may I ask what about the the gameplay did u hate?
@@ronintiger It just feels like the most barebone third person shooter they could have possibly made which wouldn't be as bad but my main issue is with how amazing the story is I want to see it through but the game likes to jam random shooting sections in nearly every mission to fit a gameplay quota. The actual combat though is so barebones that it makes it become a massive slog very quickly
@@soulreaver6300 I wouldn't attribute all of his actions to that though... I personally believe its more complicated than that, not that the headbang didnt affect him.
Dutch has still had these moments of impuning narcissism and even hypocricy before the Saint Denis Traincar accident. Maybe the concussion brought out an extreme side to it, but there's no doubt that he's always had it in him.
so many camp interactions that are yet to be discovered, but one of my favorite ones was Dutch saying to John “We are not criminals, we are outlaws” still trying to cling on to whatever semblance of noble and good he has left in him as a character
He says that to Javier and when Javier asks “Is there a difference?” Dutch gets angry and tells Javier off without actually explaining the difference. I feel like Dutch says things because they sound good/inspiring but he actually doesn’t really know what he’s saying
@@josephstalin2606 that is true, because I remember in Chapter 2’s camp, you can find Dutch’s own speech paper where he just puts down cool words and other footnotes, showing that he’s not all that genuine
"It takes a strong man to deny what's right in front of him, and when the truth is undeniable you create your own."
Spec Ops great game and a great quote as well definitely fits Dutch.
I hope Spec Ops: The Line also get an episode
I think everyone is right in a way. I think deep down Dutch did care for his people. But the combination of everything going wrong, Micah’s venomous whispers, the death of Hosea, and a potential brain injury in the trolley crash finally brought to the surface his darker impulses
Yeah fr
Yeah I think it’s totally fair to say Dutch did care about his people but he just cared about himself disproportionately more.
Love this video, a point I caught with Dutch you didn't mention unless I missed it. When Dutch is reciting chess moves he is reciting a version of the "Dutch defense" which involves moving a pawn from in front of the king to be sacrificed. A defense move under the guise of offense. He knew at least in that moment (but probably before) that he was fine with losing more of his pawns than necessary as long as he survives.
This video got me thinking more about the story of RDR2, and I realised that there's actually some similarities between that game and the famous satire of Stalin's Russia, Animal Farm by George Orwell. They're both about a group of unfortunate, oppressed individuals who band together and create a revolutionary group under an idealistic and inspiring leadership. In this case, Dutch would be Napoleon (both their descents into madness and tyranny and their love of luxury match well), Hosea fits with Snowball and the rat Micah could be Squealer. Arthur is Boxer, the faithful, sturdy work horse who realises something is wrong but just can't bring himself to betray his leader. It all fits quite well when you think about it, which I suppose in turn means there are some parallels between RDR2 and Stalin's Russia
That is a great comparison.
Abandoning Arthur at the Cornwall company was the glue factory 😢. Nice parallels
John may be the only one that may not fit this template though
Except there is no revolution, nobody changes, and there's no clear parallel here outside of: the leader turned out to be the bad guy all along
One thing to note is how Dutch reacts when characters challenge him intellectually and when errors in his thinking are pointed out
Having played RD1 as a kid I knew Dutch was gonna be the main reason the gang fell apart.I played my Arthur while trying to uphold the code that Dutch instilled in Morgan since he was young. “Feed those need feeding, help those that need help, shoot those that need shooting”. Because without that we were really no better than Colm and his gang. When it was apparent Dutch just stopped following that code is when I just stopped listening to him and was waiting for Arthur to figure it out too. Someone said in another video that “Dutch needs to be a lighthouse in the storm” someone who can hold people under him to prove that his way of life is right because if he is not that figure, that leader, he has nothing. If he truly cared about the gang they all could have left for Tahiti in like chapter 3 after the Valentine bank heist
I find it hilarious that they complain about not having enough money while Aurthur is sitting there with 6k in his pocket complaining as well. Dude literally has more than enough but cutscene logic doesn't follow game logic
@@thanospatrick9093 not to mention 6k in 1899 worths about 200K today
Well give the devil his due: it's Dutch but its also the degradation of society (which always happens when progress is too rapid, or too slow). RDR also a game about the downfall of the American dream, and the fact is that the state of America today versus 100 year ago- obviously in many, many ways life is better- but Dutch makes legitimate points about our society being fallen.
@@Wabu_227 I wouldn't look too closely into that. It cost 5$ for a prime rib meal in Saint Dennis. In today's money that would be $167.95.
@@Edax_Royeaux nah, prime ribs in rdr2 are made out of gold or something
Dutch's pathological need for control seems to be a big part of why he flew of the handle. He considers himself to be a great planner, but he loses it when the plans don't work out. This is also why he got so angry at Bronte, because Bronte managed to manipulate him without Dutch realizing he was being manipulated. He got played by the mobster and that is why the anger towards him seems to be even worse than his anger towards Dutch's normal arch-nemesis of Colm.
Bronte was just a better Dutch.
[SPOILERS (also RDR 1) ] This is my personal opinion about this character:
Dutch had at first good intentions, he wanted to live free in an equal world. At first the gang had a strong moral code, they were much like Robin-Hood, outlaws but possibly better than the corrupted lawmen themselves. This however doesn't exclude the fact he has always been a narcissistic person and a manipulator. We have to specify a thing first: we don't see, at least in these two games, a man fully sane mentally; Arthur after finding out about TB tells Sadie that Dutch has changed and this process probably began years before. The game starts with the horrible murder of Heidi McCourt, Dutch never fully overcomes this fact and interestingly John is the first to criticize him. Dutch makes terrible choices throughout the whole game and many of them are made because of revenge (he manipulated the families to avenge his daddy, destroyed the manor because they offended him, same with Bronte, then Cornwall...). We can see here his hypocrisy, he betrays his own ideals, but it seems this is a slow process, like if he is slowly degenerating.
Someone could say he was always this way but I don't think so: he managed to lead the gang for over 20 years in terrible situations and it seems he never cared for example about revenge. It's also interesting his relationship with society. First of all he reads books that fill his mind with wrong ideas, he also has the most comfortable tent but he doesn't share it with Hosea that has health problems (Dutch has also a little stove that could help Hosea with his lung problems) and it seems that he enjoys the products of society. In my opinion the highest and coolest point of this contradiction is reached in the first game, when he uses an automatic pistol and has even a tub in his cave (it's like a little portion of civilized world put into the most primitive place where a man can live, I find this a fantastic detail).
The constant pressure of the progress of the civilized world, the realization that his savage utopia was in fact impossible to realize (at first wanted to settle in the USA, then in hypothetical Heavens far far away and it all ended in a cold, grey, isolated mountain), the constant doubting of everyone around him, especially John and Hosea, later Arthur; created in him a horrible paranoia that contributed to degenerate his sanity. We can't forget THE RAT's manipulations, that contributed to make him not realize he was wrong and think John and Arthur were the rats. Also John is very important; he's a father, he run away, he could replace Dutch with his family in the most difficult time, in Dutch's eyes this is a betrayal and surely the constant doubting that John demonstrates doesn't help (I think Dutch tolerated Hosea's complains beacause they were dear friends and Hosea was his voice of reason).
The burning of the Manor in my opinion is the first heavy demonstration of his hypocrisy, he isn't so interested in helping Jack, or at least this is not the main reason he destroys the place. He feels mocked by them and in a furious rage kills an entire family. Then we have the point of no return: in the fourth chapter there are two important things. He gets hit in the head (and this is not placed randomly because the game focuses several seconds on this detail) and Hosea's death. With his demise, Micah has the way clear and can manipulate Dutch with his incredibly advanced snake skills. I think the bang on the head wasn't enough to make him change his personality but had some effects on his psyche and that's why he killed Bronte with such a brutality. In the next chapter we see that he's completely degenerating and is lost without Hosea (chess scene).
For the last chapter I want to focus on three things: the Indians, whom he helped just for interest and in a highly hypocritical way (fantastic the mission "A Rage Unleashed", where we can hear "At Home With Dutch": a bad omen for the future (he will manipulate the Indians in RDR 1 in a very similar way)). Here he also makes fun of Arthur's sickness (I wanted to punch him in the face). Then there's the "Favored Sons" mission where he saves Arthur from the water and the mission where he leaves him to die. Some people say that this betrayal was premeditated, I highly disagree. Why did Dutch have to save Arthur just two missions before? He could let him drown or get shot by the soldiers, maybe faking a faint (so if Arthur survived he couldn't accuse him), but he didn't. In my opinion this and Dutch's face when he realizes he trusted a RAT the whole time watching one of his last "sons" die demonstrate that he really cared about everyone in the gang. He was simply manipulated by Micah into thinking Arthur and John were the traitors and the fact they spent the whole time in camp together murmuring and the "I insist" were to him the confirm he needed.
He saw his best friend Hosea die in part because of his wrong decisions, saw that his dream was pointless, that everyone was against him (not true but that's what he saw), trusted the worst person possible that told him what he wanted to hear, not what he needed to hear and in the end realized (always from his point of view) that the ones he raised as sons betrayed him the whole time. For his mind this was quite enough I guess, but the most horrible punch in the stomach was realizing that Arthur always cared about him and gave him all he had, he let one of the few people that truly wanted to help him getting massacred and killed by that monster he called loyal. And this was all his fault. The gang, all he has created, he let him destroy EVERYTHING.
That's why he came back, several years later, to destroy Micah once and for all (and don't tell me it was for the muneh, he heared the conversation between John and Micah and knew John was there for revenge, he says "The same as you I suppose"). Notice how he turns his head when Micah mentions Arthur. Dutch didn't kill John in the duel because he was his "son", even though he wasn't so sure if he betrayed him or not. (Also, if you activate invincibility in the last duel and kill Micah too early, Dutch will shot John and immediately regret and in fact he says "Oh...son"). I think this is one of the few flashes of lucidity Dutch had after Arthur's death (remember that in 1906, I think, he robbed a bank and also set fire to some places, I don't remember exactly, but let's just say he was creating mess).
In the first game he's completely crazy, he doesn't even know exactly why he kills ("Sport, I guess..."). But then again, in his final speech, in a small and last flash of lucidity, he admits everything for the first time. He never actually had the capacity to change, to adapt to society, he is and was and always will be a monster (I don't mean he had always been a horrible person, but the things he did were always horrible; so in a certain sense he slowly changed in personality falling into madness and this happened because he hadn't been able to change and adapt to a new situation, the civilized world; in my opinion this character development reaches untouched peaks, amazing), his life and the whole things he created, the gang above all, was pointless, the only way to stop was to kill himself, ending that suffering began even before 1899.
So in the end I find him the most tragic character of this series, also beacuse in my opinion he wasn't that bad and could redeem and have a decent demise, instead of dying horribly at the bottom of a mountain (and again I advise you to see my video about Dutch secret voiceline in RDR 1 and also his character model after the fall (it's not possible to see it in the game, but you can find it on Reddit)), his expression is petryfing.
If you read all this I want to thank you, sorry if I made mistakes but English is not my mother language. I specify again that this is a PERSONAL OPINION and a little, maybe silly analisys made by a random guy on TH-cam, not officialy confirmed by anyone; take it for what it is.
Great analysis, but I would suggest editing it with some formatting so you can read it.
@@77professional thanks, glad you liked that.
@@jocatorejenerico I got that secret voiceline in the game, but now I'm curious about Dutch's dead model
Good job
Holy words. A lot of the information you said gave me a whole new look on the story of red dead redemption as a whole.
Dutch is such a great character, that not only he serves the purpose of an idealistic hero turned villain by his own greed and frustration, he sort of makes Arthur's redemption a lot more necessary for the plot, because he will not only have a need to save his own soul, but the people around him, who were once saved by Dutch, and now are victims of their leader constant fall from grace as well.
Also, having fucking traitorus Micah as a devil on his shoulder only speeds up his path to villany. The death of Hosea really threw a monkey wrench into the gang dynamics.
Spoilers below
Anybody else notice that the more RED that is visible in DUTCH'S attire the more reckless and bloodthirsty he is?
At the very beginning, he had none. He had his jacket on and the only red that was visible was in the pocket square of his vest.
Then Valentine and Rhodes, just the back of vest and his pocket square. Almost like it is in the back of his mind and he is struggling to hold it back.
Guarma, his vest oddly changes from being black in the front and red in the back to being much more noticeable red in the front...almost as though the recent events knocked that part of him loose.
At the end with John in RDR2? Back to black on black, almost like he got control of himself from being away from Micah's poisonous influence. Which is why he shoots Micah and leaves John.
RDR1, his shirt is pinkish...a bright shade of red, no black to be found. Almost like his bloodthirsty nature is now out on display to those who knew him.
this is genius
I think personally he probably once had a decent heart and wanted to do good but just fell into desperation rather than adapting to the new world. But at the same time Dutch in a way does deserve his freedom outside of government, but uses sin or evil to justify this making his case rocky.
Your final question? It's freedom that you happened to use wickedness to achieve. When it comes to means and the end, there's no reason that the two must be conflated.
He falls under the same category as most cult leaders
It could also be that he wanted to do right sort of like our earlier government did but as the population grew (camp members joined more n more) he needed more desperate measures to try and accommodate them all. But just like big gov he started to wanna line his own pockets too, n that’s why he dripped out compared to the rest of the gang. Random thought I’d had.
Clearly not - from the beginning he was willing to hurt others to gain for himself. That’s not a “decent heart”. That’s a bully living in the guise of gentleman vagabond
@@jakemitchell6578 i think he means before the events of the game
I can't believe I never realized how Dutch didn't fit in with the gang with his extremely clean and expensive clothing.
I did. It annoyed me. I never liked Dutch. He immediately seemed like a phony for me. Whenever someone goes out of their way to say they are good, that they care, or anything I instinctively think that’s BS.
It also annoyed me that I had to level up his tent first before anyone else’s. I wanted to level up John’s because he had a wife and kid. I thought they should have it more.
He was a sleaze bag since the beginning in my book. It only got worse as the Story continued. I was getting tired of hearing him say ONE MORE score.
Plus, slowly doing acts that looked suspicious. I always thought he only cared about himself. I was just eating for the gang to figure it out [>
It's a rare thing when a character is so owned by the actor who plays him/her, much less the voice actor in a videogame; that it's impossible to imagine anyone stealing his/her act. But there you go. The best villain in a videogame ever, by miles and miles.
One of the hardest parts in Red Dead Redemption 2 for me was realizing that Dutch never truly cared about Arthur or the gang, they were just a means to an end
The RDR2 story is as heartbreaking as it is beautiful.
I've finished the game four times and still cannot get over the fact that dutch completely undermines Micah's misdeeds and Arthur's warnings only to abandon the ones so close to him for nothing more than his freedom
My man wasn’t evil. He just wanted to go to Tahiti
It’s a magical place.
Mangoes
Tahiti!
I got a plan!
He just wanted to harvest mangoes
Are you kidding me?!?! Officially my fav channel, I was just about to load up Arthur & the gang, spend a little time crafting and hunting in the wilderness. Thank you for this!!
Gamer moment
On the topic of Dutch going mad after his head injury, I started a more comprehensive playthrough and I'm now in Chapter 3 and Dutch actually said to me in camp, "You'll be the one to betray me" and I'm paraphrasing here but clearly his mental faculties are going earlier than the possible TBI case. In my playthrough Sean isn't even dead.
The character arc of Dutch in Red Dead 2 is so well done.. It's almost Shakespearian how this character gradually and slowly loses his grip as others in the gang try to usurp power.. And is finally ousted from the gang.
It's one element of the game which would make it a fantastic tv drama..
I started replaying the story recently for the 4th time I just got on chapter 4 and I said to myself “I would love to see a analyzing Evil on Dutch” then to my surprise I see this in my recommendation. All I gotta say is perfect timing 🙏 (keep creating videos like this they are very interesting to watch)
I’d say he’s one of very, very few villains in games deep enough in characterization to warrant one of these analysis videos.
Dutch reminds me in some way of Don Quixote de la Mancha, it almost appears that reading too many books, not just about the west world but about many topics in general, made his brain dryer and lose connection with his environment similar to how Don Quixote still thought of himself as a knight in an era where they didn't exist anymore.
And in the end, both saw the error of their ways before dying.
Im here for this one... Dutch is quite a polarizing character
I like how Arthur treats the women of the camp with respect and actually listens to them, while Dutch continously ignores them even when it's obvious some of their ideas are far better than any thing he had come up with.
I also like the sheer amount of emotions Dutch has toward Bronte. It hurts him immensely that Bronte merely finds him a nuisance. It is killing him to know that he can never share a table with men like Bronte.
There are many factors that lead to dutch becoming who he is like stress, loss of faith, bad luck, micah, ego, people dying, no hosea, failed philosophy, not wanting to accept his wrongs.
I think the reason why dutch killed micah is not because he cared about for john or arthur but when john asks him what are you doing here and he says same thing as you suppose. He wanted to kill micah is for himself he did it because he all those years from 1899-1907 he went mad and couldnt believe micah got to him and made him turn on john and arthur and dutch didnt help arthur because he couldnt accept that he was wrong and didnt want to go with micah because he was a rat Because he ruined his plans and goals of a new utopia of no established order or government where people can live free of economic and social constraints he sounds like a cult leader not outlaw or a teacher just a cult leader and a terrorist.
Also please do more video game villains like baldur, vaas, pagan min, micah, makarov.
you're saying he killed micah because he didn't want micah to live?
@@orbtain my b read it again
From the moment i started playing rdr2, my first and only thought of Dutch was that he was a cult leader with an acute case of narcissism.
@@zachh._.123 Maybe learn how to use periods or write proper sentences lol
@@aleemizcool3654 my b
Dutch was always the way he was. It's literally in the first scene of the game with him giving some speech to encourage everyone and then you can find a note in his room later that explains he orchestrated his little speech moment to manipulate everyone. Something that meticulous, he tried to use for control and deceit. Also, the more you hear from John Marston and Hosea, the more you realize Dutch has always been whack. Like somebody else commented, in the game, the mask was only "falling off". But it's not surprising they wrote it this way, because if Dutch was the one actually changing, it would take value away from Arthur's change of heart. This game is about Arthur seeing through the bs, and choosing to then rise above it and to claim redemption for himself, just like John with the first game. That means far less if Dutch is becoming a more delusional madman the longer the game goes on as he moves further from being a "robin hood", which he never actually was.
A prewritten speech does not inherently imply manipulation, or at least, not malicious manipulation. It was a pep-talk, something to boost morale and keep people from losing themselves to despair. And I disagree that Dutch didn't change. While he was always violent and rash, prior to his head injury and the loss of Hosea it was always kept more or less in check, arguably even turned into a strength.
@@RaptorJesus The speech itself isn’t the manipulation, I wrote that assuming the connection would be made on the reader’s own when they realized Dutch premeditated a play on the vulnerability and critical situation the gang was in at the time. Also, a lot of people make the case that Dutch only changed for the worse during the events of RDR2 and they then cite Hosea, but Hosea and his dialogue in Chapter 1/2 are some of the major pieces of evidence suggesting the Dutch was only revealing who he really was more openly by 1899.
This is the best in-depth character analysis I've ever heard. I hope you have/will make more. I regret not paying much attention to the conversations of the main story for most of the beginning.
Villain suggestion: The Other Mother/The Beldam from the book and movie Coraline. I suspect she'd be a welcomed addition to the series.
Now that is something we need
That's an incredible pick , loved that movie
I've genuinely never clicked on a video as fast. Been playing RDR2 a lot recently and I'm hooked. Can we get an Analysing Evil on Micah?
Here's everything you need to know to understand Micah:
He is evil.
That's it. That's his character.
@@Pedro_Le_Chef Not really. In many ways he's what he says he is: A survivor and a realist.
Kinda cool how Dutch’s voice actor managed to make him sound just a little bit younger in the sequel despite being ten years physically older
He stopped smoking between the time 2010 and 2018. I could be wrong though.
@@TheoTungsten And the actor of John Marston said he chainsmokes to get the voice right lmao.