Was Dutch Always A Bad Person Or Did He Change? Full Character Analysis Red Dead Redemption Lore
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.พ. 2019
- Me doing a full analysis on the character of Dutch Van Der Linde. In this video I talk about his full story the choices he made and why I believe he made them. I also address the question many people ask on whether he changed or was always crazy.
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This is the longest video I have ever made. It took me a month to make. I apologize for the length but there was no way for me to shorten it down as I wanted to talk about everything Dutch did in Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2. I would like to thank my friend Sean Eazy for allowing me to use his Dutch footage he has an entire video on Dutch here th-cam.com/video/iCEWweyFNtw/w-d-xo.html.
@Theprofessional can you help me?
TheProfessional sup pro I love ur vids and I hope u have the best year of 2019
No problem pro the longer the better
That's what she said
Dutch was at first a good guy, but Hosea and Arthur's death made him insane, then Micah took advantage.
JG did you not take in anything from the video or from playing the game yourself? Dutch was not a good guy even before Lenny and Hosea’s deaths.
Bill and Javier were loyal to Dutch and Dutch alone. Arthur and John were loyal to the gang itself, and what it once stood for.
Javier wasn’t full loyal to Dutch u could see at the end scene he wasn’t aiming his gun at Arthur and John
@@frozenduck74 That was a request from Javier’s VA apparently. He was near quitting because originally, Javier WAS indeed pointing his gun at John and Arthur as well in the original script but Javier’s VA said he couldn’t believe that Javier would do this to his friends so he asked Rockstar to change the cutscene so he wouldn’t aim at them.
@@Lily-fk8is Javier is probably the most naive one out of all of them. He's completely convinced himself that Dutch truly could do no wrong, perhaps due to some sort of cognitive dissonance. I think he knew deep down that Dutch had changed or may not have been the man he originally thought he was, but still tried to remain at his side because he didn't want to really believe it. He was an idealist through and through, and couldn't cope with the fact that his view of the world might have been wrong the entire time.
@@mcgoldenblade4765 The main reason of Bill and Javier blind loyalty is their past.Javier was a Mexican who witness terrible things happens on his family as a kid(he tell about it by a campfire event) then he become a revolutionary fighting against a corrupt goverment that hurt his family and many other people.Next he killed an important military officer over a woman he was in loved.He escaped to America because he feared that in revenge they can hurt people he love.In America because he dont know english he soon became poor and started starving.Dutch fed him,clothed him and offered a place in his gang.Dutch was probably first man that treats him fair and saved his live.Also the gang cared about him and treated him normal(not like a "greaser").He also really belives in Dutch idea of fighting the government.The simillar story happend with Bill.That is why they were so loyal despite Dutch behaviour in the end.Javier durning a confrontation with Arthur and John as the only one dont point his gun at them.In this point he probably realised that Dutch is wrong here because when Dutch,Micah,Cleet and Joe running after Arthur and John he and Bill are gone.Later in RDR1 he dont try to kill John just try to run away from him.I think he is not naive he and Bill are really tragic and missunderstood characters.
@@gigakubica8793 Yeah, I know, they've both been through a lot. But in the end it just makes the fact that Dutch took advantage of their loyalty so much worse. If you put it into perspective Dutch really seems like some sort of cult leader, preaching about a free America, opposing the greed and corruption of civilization. Yet in reality he only did it to feed his own ego, taking in lost souls and having them look at him as some sort of savior.
When Hosea said, “You’ll damn us all,” we all knew that something bad was about to happen.
Hoses is always right
@@bigt100 he's not real...
@@Thenorthsace no shit really?
Hosea is the best :)
@@Thenorthsace lmao of course he isn’t bro why even make that comment 😂
I'm so glad that out of everyone, Ms. Tilly was one of the very few who actually got a happy ending.
And yet when John encounters her when she's livin a happy life, she *BARELY* speaks of Arthur.
@@mukeshkumar-ey1ge I guess it been so long it time to let it go. Move on.
@@mukeshkumar-ey1ge she was catching a train
@@erenjaeger1738 I think most of would like to forget because it’s painful
@@erenjaeger1738 it happened 8 years ago. Thats a long time and she's moved on by then
Man Lenny's death really hit me hard because in my playthrough, I had time to shoot the guy who kills Lenny but I missed my shot and it made me feel like his death was my fault. I know his death his scripted but the way it played out during my run, it really felt like I could have prevented it and I felt awful.
I reloaded a save to try to avoid it, when he died after i killed the shooter I just accepted defeat.
It’s impossible to kill the men before they shoot Lenny, even if you land head shots. Unfortunately his death is 100% unavoidable😪
The same thing happened to me- i really felt like it was my fault, but then i didn't get that screen saying i failed. I realized it had to happen, and continued. Hosea's death was much worse to me, tho. I really felt like he was much more of a "father figure" than Dutch.
For me Sean's death felt the worst, because both Sean and Arthur knew that they were walking into an ambush and did nothing to stop Micah and Bill. Lenny's death was just an accident, and there was no chance for Arthur to stop it.
Also for me, Lenny always seemed a very boring character apart from that drinking mission in Valentine.
@@tunemaki_izlasitrlv6835 Leennnyyy!
going after Bronte may have been a bad idea but you gotta admit it was satisfying to hear how scared he was when he realized his money and influence didn't matter to the gang.
He was in contact with the Pinkertons and ultimately killing him killed Hosea.If they had ransomed Bronte , hosea wouldn’t have died
Bronte was the most satisfying death
he had it coming because he underestimate them you can kinda see before Dutch was leaving in the party mission he was giving me vibes that he didn't like the gang in his city and they have been there for long and he already like you got what you wanted and that is little Jack now is there something else get the fuck out of my city that what vibe I was getting also he thinks just because he some mob boss that money can take care of all his problems money can't buy two things happiness and and loyalty and like he said every man has a price that all he believes in money and price I never liked him he kinda remind me of lit bit of Steve Haines and Devin Weston hated both of them
@@nickalexcage you don't know that, someone still would of died.
@@thefracturedbutwhole5475 YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH YEAH TRUE YOUR SO RIGHT
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH THE FRACTUREDBUT WHOLE FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11HDENJHFHBFDVYBGTFHD FRDE NDJM BNSWBN GNHJMGBNHFRB NDSEJBH NTEADYGGBEHDBFHBFWE VULRTVH BTHV4O38TBV 3B YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Micah: shoots Ms grimshaw
Dutch: wHo IS BetRAYinG mE
When Grimshaw sides with Arthur she becomes a traitor so when she got shot by Micah he didnt care cause she didnt stand with him anymore
So She was betraying him
and he says Colm odrisco don't care about he's gang how hypocritical from him
Despite Ducth having a "Soft spot for miss Grimshaw" he was too far gone. For me, after that point he was never going to be saved
@@friccle_ it’s just funny that Dutch sided with someone who betrayed him in the past by leaving the gang for a few years. And once Arthur acts in hoseas stead, the only two that grew up with him says he’s acting out on personal feelings
@@badreedinedjellali1328 I think he did care for them but as his mental health clearly deteriorated due to the stress of being the one everyone looks to to solve all there problems and the people he cared for getting killed he ended up breaking and thinking that anyone who refused to do as he says is betraying him and Michea (however it is spelt) manipulating and planting ideas in his head didn’t help
I also find it so annoying that towards the end where John gets rescued from a hanging by Arthur and Sadie, Dutch gets mad and says it was only talk. But when there was talk of hanging Micah he didn't hesitate to have Arthur save him
It was messed up but Micah was in a jail cell in a small town while John was in a prison on an island.
That was to show the change of character over time. In the earlier part of the game Dutch was that kind of person to be the first one to say you got to save him. Even Arthur character change. He complain trying save John the first time in the mountains but change completely by the end.
I think a better comparison would be Sean. Micah was in a tiny village, John was in a state penitentiary.
Sean was being held by bounty hunters in Blackwater. Rescuing him was a tremendous risk, what with the Pinkerton patrols there, yet they did it anyway. Dutch said that if he’s alive they’ve got to try when it came to Sean. He made a complete U-turn when it came to John.
Dutch knew John and Arthur were loyal to the gang first. Hosea was the angel on his shoulder, Micah the devil. When Hosea died there was only a dying Arthur trying to hold Dutch from the edge. But I think Dutch was already over the edge.
I agree 100% but to be fair they had more heat on them when John was locked up so that was his “justification” for not wanting to break him out yet. Or until they were ready to make the move.
All of Dutch's behavior and actions make sense when you stop thinking of him as a gang leader and start thinking of him as a cult leader.
Did you ever find the copy of his speech at the Horseshoe Overlook camp? He gives a rousing speech to boost morale, then it turns out he wrote the thing out in advance, practiced it, and memorized it. He was a deeply dishonest man. Tahiti was never going to happen.
@@JadeDude1973 majority of leaders write their speeches, whether their righteous or greedy.
Yes. Though he said that people can leave the gang if they want, once they did he called them cowards. He was so enslaved to his principles of protecting the ‘gang’ that he forgot that the gang is comprised of individuals that he had a responsibility to. Hence why he was fine with leaving both Arthur (Wapiti vs US Army) and John (train robbery) to die. He saw that their loyalty was waning so abandoning them meant protecting the gang. His idea of the “gang” was symbolic.
@@JadeDude1973 Tell me you’ve never written a speech without telling me
The Tahiti plan sounds like Jim Jones' plan of going to paradise. In the end everyone of his cult committed suicide, but in RDR only Dutch committed suicide.
I personally think that Dutch killed both families because he was embarrassed that he got played by people he felt were inferior to his intellect.
It was mainly me who killed them. He didn't even show up for the gray shootout. He must have been working on his goddamn plan
@@arthurmorgan8529 WE NEED MORE MONHEH
@@ndnironboy I put about 8 thousand dollars in the camp funds box. We don't need more moneh. Get the boat for Tahiti booked
@@arthurmorgan8529 But MR MORGAN... WE NEED FAITH... JUST one MORE SCORE SON..
@@arthurmorgan8529 JUST ONE LITTLE SCORE.
He was balanced with hosea, when he died stuff just started going wack
Right
@@real.j1 hosea was really the glue that held the gang together
That and the concussion he got in the trolley crash, also I think his stress from being wanted by the law for many years also helped change him
He murdered a lady in blackwater to escape before the game starts. They talk about it early on. He got that look in his eye they said. He needed to be in control, when he felt like he was losing control, he’d cross the line
But he went whack before Hosea died though. Remember Blackwater? That he allowed a violent Loose Cannon like Micah into the Gang?
It hurts when I see tears in Arthur's eyes as he realizes that Dutch no longer cares about anything but money when they ride off instead of saving Abigail
Definitely hard to watch
Too be honest Abigail is a big pain and she is annoying but Dutch should help save her.
Though he did kill that old hag who he have a gold bar to on that island, but after he killed her he left it behind and climbed up the ladder. I don’t think he cared about money at that moment in time
I would left Abigail as well. I hate her and she should be betrayed.
@@Icy-be5vl wtf is wrong with you
I love the parallel between Dutch and Colm, Dutch ends up really being just like Colm in the end, especially in RDR1. Just like Kieran said
Was Colm really that against the art of anthropology as Dutch was?
“ I see a person who got found out, for who he truly was”
-John Marston, 1907
what is wrong with you?
HA BEAT YOU TO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET RECKED NOOOB
@@BreakingWhite Wym?
John Marston Sums up Dutch’s character perfectly.
@@LB-eh7sr ya pretty much
If John Marston would've went to guarma in chapter 4 with them he wouldve drowned cause John Marston cant swim.
holy shit yeah that's crazy to think about actually
Maybe he would've nedded to swim, only arthur swimed to guarma, the rest were on thta boat(sorry for my english)
@@mari1468 No they were all washed up without a boat
@@spikey288 no,actually,Dutch,Javier and Micah got onto micah by a boat.
One thing I don't get, if John saw Dutch for who he truly was, why didn't he take his family and slip away at Beaver Hallow before the train robbery?
In fact, I don't get why Arthur, Sadie, John and his family, Uncle, Mary-Beth, Charles, Ms. Grimshaw, Karen, and others did not all leave in a mass Exodus?
They could've made their own caravan and headed somewhere else.
One thing I noticed is that Dutch is the perfect parallel to John. Johns entire arc is fighting the urges to return to his outlaw life while Dutch gives in to those urges entirely and he becomes a monster
You gotta add that period at the end of John. I thought you were talking about Jon Jon from RDC 😂
Jhon and Dutch both love their life as outlaws, for Jhon he just feels like it's the only life he knows and excels at, he hates being a normal working dude, he never gives a second thought when the opportunity presents to be himself, his struggle is being a family man.
Dutch also loves being an outlaw, he's just more idealistic and romantic about it, he feels like it's a superior way of life than that of civilization.
I’m native American and it always infuriates me when people praise Dutch because he says he’s sympathetic towards the natives in the game, like did you even play the game? He uses them like fodder all for his “grand plan”, even in the first game he causes the native tribe to turn on one another, like yes he may be sympathetic but that doesn’t make him a good person.
I think we need to remember that we're grading this on a curve. Specifically, compared to the general public opinion of Natives and Black people during that time, Dutch is basically a saint. He holds no racial prejudice. Does that excuse his manipulation? No, not at all, but he manipulates everyone by the end. Though I'd also say that it wouldn't be unreasonable to think he truly believed and sympathized with Native, Black and other such causes at some point, or even that he died *thinking* that was still true of him. Dutch was a very broken man by the end.
Again, not trying to excuse his crimes.
@@RaptorJesus good points, I also think this adds to Dutch’s ego as well, like he sees all the crimes being committed towards the black and native populations and thinks what he’s going through is equal to theirs, all that is happening to Dutch is his fault as he is a criminal and murderer but in his mind he doesn’t deserve this, and when he is punished for his crimes he finds it wrong and as evil as what the government is doing to the native and black communities.
Yeah, that always confused me. I often wonder if some people were playing the same game as me, because it's very explicit that he is just using them as a "distraction".
Dutch is a parasite who uses his charisma to gain favor and loyalty from traumatized and marginalized people.
@Joe-ve9xz great point, I also find his manipulation of the native American men in RDR1 and the end of RDR 2 to be pretty heinous, showing his decline from wanting to leave industrial society in all his plans for his ideal one up to finding his last bastion of hope in using these disenfranchised groups to essentially become his terrorist cell/ gang in the most harsh interpretation of the word. Committing violence because it's the only felt way he can combat the change he's watching.
I noticed something on my second playthrough, at the mission at the end of chapter two where you are sent to scout out a new campsite with Charles, Arthur says "Dutch would never hide away in some cave like a petty criminal". The camp in chapter six is a cave.
yep
Same here, thought it was pretty interesting
It’s called foreshadowing.
And in RDR 1 his entire camp is in a cave.
Also the fact HE sends arthur there.
Dutch used eagle flies to make his EGO FLY.
Good one
Ba doom tss
Bars
@Corey Anderson then why are u on a character analysis
He used the whole gang to make his ego fly. Not just the wapiti tribe
The way Rains Fall’s Voice breaks when Eagle Flies rides to War is so realistic. Really makes my spine shiver.
I don’t know that Dutch’s intentions were always evil & I do believe he loved Arthur at some point, but he’s definitely a narcissistic and egomaniac and those tendencies only accelerated after Hosea died & the West continued to get civilized.
His way of living “the untamed & free” West was over and he couldn’t really accept it.
In the end, he used Arthur until he didn’t feel he needed him anymore and that was the saddest part of RDR2 for me. The scene where he leaves Arthur behind at Cornwall’s Kerosene was the final straw that this man cares more about his ideology than the people who have loved him for 20 years.
People always ask - “How could Dutch believe Micah over Arthur who he cared for since Arthur was a boy?”
The answer is simple. Dutch wanted to be followed, not challenged & Micah took advantage of that. Whats crazy is he knew Micah was a rat in the end, he knew Arthur was right but that would’ve crashed his whole ego. He chose his own ego over his own sons. What an amazing yet depressing game.
I think Dutch always had the evil side in him but he had Hosea to keep him grounded, then when Hosea dies Micah slipped in and Dutch, grieving shunned Arthur who would have served as a better replacement for Hosea by keeping him grounded and pulling him up when goes too far, Micah just encouraged him to keep getting worse but also cleverly stroked his ego thereby leading Dutch to ruin, by validating his more destructive tendencies and encouraging them.
It seems clear from the beginning of RDR 2 that Micah has started to influence Dutch and he's already in the process of changing, he's also shown becoming paranoid about Arthur and Hosea because they will tell him truths he doesn't necessarily want to hear.
@@cptsteele91 if we had a timeline where Micah is removed early game and Hosea stays alive, do you think we may have recovered Dutch from the abyss and genuinely solidify his mindset?
@@TemmieContingenC Dutch was already insane in 2 chapter.
@@icywinx861 Probably less insane
If Arthur had a nickel for every time Dutch says ONE LAST JOB He would be in Tahiti already and would be alive
Facts hes been saying tht shit since chapter 2
He wouldn’t be alive lol
@@bodhip Dutch say it so much that Arthur can buy a cure for tb and buy tahiti
@@titekubo1997 haha
@@bodhip in chapter 2 he has no tuberculosis u get it when beating up poor farmer but even then it's not active TB like in game theory video states
Dutch scolding Arthur for busting John out of prison by saying "and when busting John out of prison brings the law down on us? What then Arthur?" Is the most hypocritical shit that dutch has ever said
Yeah because literally right after he shoots up Cornwell in the most ridiculous impulsive way. I honestly think he wanted John dead. John and Arthur were some of the few that “questioned him” Also, if he dies he can take Jack under his wing like Arthur.
@@flashfire3564 although he left both of them to die in the final missions? As soon as he realized they doubted him, he was ready to lose them.
@@Purplecrocodiles thats why he left when eagles flies saved arthur and never forget he left john to die after the train robbery
@ProGamer ook yea good point. Even tho micah was new member he wasn't questioning dutch and was gaslighting his narcissistic personality preferred micag
Apart from killing Cornwall and Bronte, he sent his gang on countless of other jobs that brought the law on them. I’d say he criticised them because saving John wasn’t in his interest and saving Micah was.
Fun fact, if you spare the guy at the barn you actually will see him again in that mission where you fight all the O’Driscolls in the snowy area
So if you execute him, you will have one less enemy later on in that fight. Am I right?
@@Cybernaut76 I’m not sure, he could just be replaced with another npc
@@Epicbot095 Ok. Thank you.
@@Epicbot095 I guess it is not too difficult to win the battle regardless of will the Driscolls have one extra member or not. Arthur is quite deadly, especially with (Dead Eye) anyway. Might even be worth the extra potential honor point or two that can possibly be gained by sparing the boy (not sure if it applies to this particular case but common sense dictates it is situations like this where honor points can be gained). I have learned honor points really are worth chasing unless you are deliberately going for the low honor based walkthrough.
@@Cybernaut76 yep
Arthur begging Dutch to help Abigail is one of the saddest moments in the game to me, he sounds so hurt, like whatever small amount of hope he had left for Dutch as a good leader and a good man just diminished
Abigail is a pathetic looser. I hate her.
Did anyone notice that Saint Denis Bank Heist was the exact same as the Blackwater heist
2 Men were killed
1 Man was Arrested
Pinkertons swarmed the area instantly
All the money was lost.
That's right! Never thought if that before.
Eh not exactly. At Blackwater one man was shot, one was arrested, one went missing, and one woman was killed. The two men that died weren’t killed immediately but in the aftermath
@@jaimelannister1797 and 2 died
@@jaimelannister1797 jenny and dave I think
@@alexschletzbaum1815 Mac and Jenny and Sean got arrested davy only got killed later.
The fact that Dutch has this much lore and has a whole hour long video of debating whether he went insane or not shows how much of a well written character he was.
What I find most impressive about this game is how they create so many legendscertain things. Like what really happened in backwater, everyone wants to see what happened, everyone wants to know if Landon Ricketts was there or not, rockstar did an amazing job at this game
I dont know... by the time I got to second or third chapter, on my first and only playthrough, it was very clear to me that Dutch is just a good manipulator. And the way his story ends... just retarded if you ask me.
I am infact a great character. Thank you for the compliment friendo
@@ButtermanYT yes buttermsn yes u are
He is one of the most iconic characters
If you look closely during the stare-off in the end of chapter 6, Javier was the only one who didn’t point a gun at Arthur and john
Why though?
@@Kova-ow2en to show he was neutral
@@brianl1342Hardly. He still picked Dutch's side, he just couldn't point a gun at his brothers.
I hate that ngl. Javier was as much of a bastard as Bill and Dutch in rdr1, they made him a cool guy in rdr2 for no reason
@@DrClock-il8ijnot really for no reason, it was really to show how badly the gang and Dutch fucked up people’s lives. Javier going from a decent, cool guy into THAT in rdr1 is to make it all the more tragic, same with how Arthur and everyone else dies. People change.
When Dutch rides off they really expressed Arthur's emotion. The voice actor nailed it. And the animation... his eyes showed what he was feeling. Him coughing afterwards was a nice touch
‘Ain’t no one round her got 5000 dollars..’
Arthur with 15k: 👁👄👁
that's the one big thing that really doesn't make any sense. From chapter 2 I did all the treasure hunts and collected all the gold bars. Besides camp upgrades, a good horse and a proper outfit and upgrading the 4 weapons that I need (2x Cattleman, Lancaster Repeater, Springfield Rifle) I did not spend much, as there is nothing worth spending it for. The occasional bath, good meal and a hotel room for a night, and 99 Potent Miracle Tonics.... that's it. So I was constantly running around with $16k in my satchel, while Dutch constantly complains about "we need more money".
In the end, when John gets the money (his share at least), it'S $20k. That's laughable from my "Chapter 2 Arthur" point of view... (I also always use the "Aberdeen Pigs & Savings" to pass Arthurs money to John in any playthrough)
The amount of money we can casualy pick up along the way doesn't make any sense in relation to the story, sadly.
The easiest solution to the overwhelming problem of "we need more money" would have been: "Hey Dutch, we are in Horseshoe Overlook, I been around for three days, here's the $20k I already collected, can we just leave now?"...
It would have been cool had there been a secret ending if you got like 50k
Just wanted to point out that in today’s money, that’s about $494,400 in today’s money.
@@raphael2407 Dutch never wanted to settle, lack of money was just an excuse to continue living as a leader of an outlaw gang
Arthur could've..... paid.... off.... his...... bounty
I think for Dutch it was never about the money. I truly believe Dutch lacked any sense of an end goal because if he did. The gang had more then enough money to flee after the bank job in Valentine. But I truly think for Dutch it was all about the rush of the gang life and once that started to be taken from him via government and his own people seeing what he was. Dutch then gained the mindset of I'd rather see it burn then give it up.
I just did the valentine job tht shit was 15k!!
I agree. Dutch's plans of Tahiti, California, New York, Or Chicago was just another excuse to cause chaos. He used money as an excuse to the gang imo.
They left around 20,000 dollars in Blackwater, which is money they had before it all went wrong. That's 600k in modern day money. Idk how that's not enough money to hire a boat to Tahiti.
@@billmark1157 It was 150k.
Of course, talking about tahiti, australia or whatever promised land is just a manipulation trick used by many leaders through history ("have faith in my religion and you're going to heaven", "vote for me, trust my plan and I'll bring the good old days back" etc...), I think Dutch's plans about making money and escaping overseas were genuine until the saint denis heist because that could have actually worked, but after that he just wants revenge on the US government for Hosea's death and the fact that they just don't let him go, so he kills Cornwall because he symbolizes the modern world and embodies everything he thinks is wrong with the new America that is being born (capitalist corporate greed unleashed on man and nature) he lets john and arthur blow up the railway bridge saying that it's a distraction (although it's actually just a terror attack as we would call it in current times) and he manipulates the natives into waging a war against the US army, he keeps talking about money and tahiti just so that the rest of the gang sticks with him, but in reality he doesn't care anymore and just wants to hit the government as hard as he can before going down
Molly is the first to realise something is up with Dutch. At the start of chapter 3, In the mission, An Honest mistake, she confronts Arthur about Dutch, before Uncle waltz right in and Molly walks away.
... Hosea notices in chapter 1
I find Dutch's relationship with Arthur to be very interesting. Did he really love Arthur or was he just good at covering it, and actually just thought of him as a pawn.
My interpretation is, while he did really like Arthur and bonded with him, deep down he really did see him as a pawn with loyalty. He was just good at hiding it. Putting on a face in the form of their good times (Fishing, racing back to camp, etc.) But when Arthur began disobeying Dutch, he became more of who he truly was and started treating Arthur more and more of what he really thought of him, a pawn. Going as so far as to leave him for dead.
The interesting part is the scene on the mountain. Dutch is ready to kill Arthur once and for all, but then Arthur looked at him. "I gave you all I had...I did...". I think in that moment, Dutch realized that, while he saw Arthur as simply a tool he can use, Arthur truly did see him as a father figure. And Dutch heard how betrayed he felt, in his dying words. Which made him, for probably the first time in his life, speechless.
Can you imagine the guilt of raising someone as simply a soldier you can use, only to learn that they truly did love you and thought of you as their guardian/parent? And you learn it on their dying breath no less? No wonder Dutch went insane by 1911
The relationship between Dutch and Arthur reminds me of the relationship between Owl and Wolf from Sekiro. Both Dutch and Owl surround themselves with people who owe them everything. Both rely heavily on a strong willed and dangerous woman to take of the homefront. And both use a seemingly unobjectionable code of ethics to control those they take under their wing. Except while Dutch was delusional (at least by the end of the game), Owl was perfectly aware of what he was doing by raising Wolf to be a shinobi like him. He was creating a weapon to exploit later. And when Wolf rejects and kills him, Owl is proud that he managed to create a weapon so strong that it could overcome even him, The Great Shinobi. I played both games at around the same time and it's such a weird juxtaposition. Dutch is so affectionate towards Arthur. presenting as the ideal father surrogate. But he's colder than even a professional spy and assassin. And when confronted by the consequences of his coldness he just folds. Dutch wanted so badly to be a powerful leader (which Uncle calls him out on in the opening chapters) but he just wasn't made of strong enough stuff.
I don't believe this. I don't believe that at all. I truly genuinely believe that Dutch was a man that truly love the boys that he raised as his own. Especially Author.
I never would sit here and believe that he looked at offer all this time the way he did in the later chapters of rdr2. See the problem with a lot of you is you like the associate Dutch with always being this man that was hiding who he truly was. I mean even author felt this way but of course Dutch actions would make one feel this way but deep down I don't see it like that. I really feel like a lot of things contribute to the person he's become.
After the horse race with Dutch, when I played for the first time and he said "I had fun with you today Arthur" it sounded nice and hearthwarming.
When I played for a second time and knew what will happen it sounded more like "you entertained me today, good job"
@@senshiserenity7088he was fond of Arthur and the rest, he liked liked, he didn't love them
Love doesn't want anyone to follow blindly and doesn't treat you well just as long as you never say a word agains it
@@adelkaizbest2038 well that's your opinion I believe he did love them
Dutch gets mad at Arthur and Sadie for springing John for bringing more "heat" on them.
Dutch: Let's blow shit up.
*gets into a literal war with the U.S army*
Dutch: how could you bring this unnecessary heat onto us? 😡
We need to make noises arthur, NoiseeeE
Also Dutch: Immediately decides to murder a famous billionaire in broad daylight in front of multiple witnesses for no reason other than revenge
You have to obey your leader.....
@@ninjafrog6966 you don't get it, he was blowing shit up so that the army and the whole attention gets on natives, he was trying to frame natives and making them scapegoats, their gang was on focus from all sides for quite a time now he needed something to distract them so he thought that if he created a bigger problem with natives all attention will go to them and they would slip
What didn't help was he was not acting trustworthy, yeah he definitely doubted John I think as a rat because he was doubting, double crossing him since the start like from valentine so He thought after st. Denis Bank job he saw fit to not share the plan with John and with arthur he thought arthur would tell John anyway if he gets involved in planning, so micah and he came really close as to plan, here Dutch really miss hosea if he didn't die the gang would have been intact
I feel like each time Dutch gives Arthur the option to kill, or spare people is another narcissistic trait cult leaders do: If Arthur kills, Dutch feels no guilt but Arthur does and won't be able to discuss with Dutch because Dutch can say "You made that choice, I did not force you..." Which keeps Arthur in his pocket
Shit. I never realized that.
The weirdest thing he does is create a father/son relationship with Arthur despite being only 5 years older than him. And the saddest part about it was that he really brainwashed Arthur from a young age to think of him as a father and it took him realizing he was going to die soon from tb for him to finally see Dutch for what he really was
@@josephstalin2606 8 yrs older.
@@godofwar234regi5 No Dutch is 41 in 1899 and Arthur is 36. 5 year difference
Arthur is a simp honestly
On my first play through of the game, I took it very seriously because I heard that your choices do have consequences. So in the beginning I made sure to get rid of any witnesses; From the people of the train robbery at the start of the game to that one guy that recognizes you in Valentine. But as I continued playing and as I realized how chaotic each event in the story was becoming, I started feel more sympathetic to characters/npcs who were affected by the gang, and ended pursuing honor - I felt I was genuinely changing with Arthur as I played.
RDR2 is probably one of the only games where I actually care about how my choices effects other people even if it is just a video game.
Rockstar has come a long way! I can still remember how I played GTA III and Vice City (20 years ago) gunning down all the people around me with a minigun (in a manner you could think my protagonist was a psychopath) without giving a whit about the fact it would give me a wanted level. Such behavior is no longer practical or appropriate in modern Rockstar games especially if you are playing with serious intent to complete without delays.
Then something is wrong with you.
Dutch was always like this. Replaying the game multiple times you start to notice that he always had that side just hidden behind the persona he built up around himself. But as the walls closed in around him more and more that persona cracked more and more until he finally dropped it completely.
I think when he said "I ain't got a final plan, arthur I ain't got..." he was realizing he doesnt know what to do and was about to reach out to arthur. But then realized he would be admitting he doesnt know and immediately went back to being cold and acting all he needs is a little more of something and seeing this is also when he talks about missing hosea, I think this is the last of the empathetic and caring dutch that was left slowly falling apart
It's sad to think that maybe if Arthur turned out to be more like hosea than a mix of Dutch and hosea when he grew up that he might have known what to say to save that last ember of honesty in Dutch.
@@iljaradenkovs7150 I think over the course of the end of the story he does become more like hosea, but at that point dutch doesnt care, he already feels like hes so close to winning and that everyone that isnt with him deserves to die
Remember what Eagle Flies said to Arthur?
"People dont change, they only become more of who they really are."
I think the same applies to Dutch, as his gang and environemnt falls apart, i believ that he does what he can to try and keep it together - albeit in his own sick twisted way.
The agreeable, happy and confident front he puts on slowly shreds away as his life and family and ideals fall apart, and his true instincts and reason shines through.
That was Rains Fall.
That is Arthur's opinion though. I don't think it is a fact. I really think Dutch was a good man. No way he can manipulate and lie to Hosea that easily for decades. It is just the events bothered him, the one that he loves was killed brutally, and his family or gang were getting killed. Plus you add up Micah's demonic voice whispering. ..
@Andrew Becker I don't think so, Arthur and Hosea actually said themselves that Dutch changed through the years. They actually always talks about, play the prologue. Plus Arthur and Hosea aren't stupid, saying that Dutch has always been faking everything since the beginning is like saying that Arthur and Hosea are just a bunch of Yes men. Plus Dutch saved Arthur's life a bunch of times and Dutch and Hosea are the one who raised Arthur. Remember All of the sons of Dutch was a decent human being. Even Bill is a decent human being he is just too stupid. Plus Dutch is too proud to lie to himself. Living the life of someone else.
@Andrew Becker Hell no, it was not easy back then. Almost all of them said it, themselves that they have experienced worst and they still managed to survive. Even a guy like uncle would have seen through Dutch IF he was lying. Plus if you remember Dutch hates racism there is a bunch of blacks on his gang while and the government for they have done to the native Americans.
I remember that line so clearly, I thought he would mention it in the video, and I think its just supports the fact even more that Dutch was always a bad person just hiding very well, the fact that there are people still saying Dutch is a good person clearly haven't watched the entire video and it just boggles my mind that they don't see it. like he said in the video, in red dead 1 Dutch tries to kill john multiple times "for sport" even, kills innocent people for literally zero reason which goes against his early ideologies, in my mind I knew Dutch wasn't a good person going into red dead 2 simply cause I finished the first game.
I think John said it best himself during the Epilogue while riding with Sadie: That Dutch was ALWAYS using the people around him, claiming they were his family to inspire loyalty, but would discard them the second they were of no use to him. They were a means to an end and I think he never had any intention of being "fair" with anyone in his gang when and if they ever got that "final score" he always kept talking about.
it almost sounds like Dutch was going to say "I'm sorry Arthur" at the end but, literally couldn't find the words past his narcissism.
It also kinda sounds like Dutch is a case of: "Its easy to hold onto your values as long as they're not costing you anything." To me, the fact that you can only upgrade Dutch's tent in the camp, before anyone else pretty much says it all. As long as he's first in line, he's a total egalitarian.
And improving his tent makes everyone feel better so they leave more money in the box iirc. Emotionally abused children tend to try to keep abusing parents happy and I think that is also the relationship between Dutch and the gang members.
I just love how this game inspires moral reflections. Something really special in this hasty industrialized world.
Eh, I didnt mind that aspect. Its like, the boss gets a reserved parking space up front. Arthur also gets his tent upgraded before the others. Just like they get the private rooms in the mountains. This is just hierarchy. I dont see it as a problem.
Not to defend everything else. Just the camp upgrades.
@@karenamyx2205 Obviously, this reflects the amazing writing when people can see both sides of this and be 'correct.'
(I'm playing catch up with the original comment's context)
The weird question I sort of have in response to your post: "If you weren't Arthur, and Dutch had his upgraded tent, would the next option still be Arthur's tent? Or would it be your own?"
I don't know if Micah's presence affects this choice later on, since I pretty much ignored the camp and focused on kitting out in the best equipment / horses.
The problem with Dutch is sort of the question: "Is he a visionary? Or is he just a malignant narcissist?" If he's the former, then by all means, hook him up. If he's the latter, then things can only really get worse. ...which is kinda what happens.
A good leader typically has a practical purpose behind the extravagance. If upgrading Dutch's tent led to increase mission rewards, because he was able to present the group better to other people, that would be one thing.
I personally didn't care about upgrading Arthur's tent, because I spent 99% of nights at town inns. I definitely didn't care about upgrading everyone else's tent, especially later in the game.
I'm actually fuzzy if any other character's contribution to the camp funds come anywhere close to Arthur's.
The fact that the game doesn't incentivize you to upgrade these features at all, kinda feels like a plot point.
What would be hilarious is if there was a 'secret happy ending' because Arthur upgraded all the tents, which made everyone more agreeable, preventing Micah from being able to wreck things. XD
@@karenamyx2205 I think people just see Dutchs enforcing of a hierarchy contradicting to his “equal and free” world he’s trying to create. In other words Dutch preaches that they need to be free but yet he forces his gang to follow his every order without question. So it’s not that hierarchies and total leadership are completely bad but it’s the opposite of the man that Dutch portrays himself to be which makes him seem fake and untrustworthy
Wow bro, that's a damn good eye. I've fully upgraded the camp in every playthrough and I've never put 2 and 2 together
Dutch just comes off as manipulative. Your approval of him depends solely on how well things are going. When things are happy and calm his baseless encouragement is fine and seems normal. When everything's gone wrong and people are dying and he's still saying things are fine and to trust him and guilting people who doubt him it becomes clear what kind of person he is. He never changed but your tolerance for his bullshit definitely did.
@Unhappy Turtle Maybe. I saw Dutch try to give a speech in chapter 6 where he tried to give the same leader speech he does every chapter but no one in camp even listened. Except for Micah, of course. The detail in seeing Dutch lose support from almost everyone is insane.
Well said
First time I played this game and I hear Dutch he sounded fake as Fuck to me. That was just my ears and heart doing the judging as I played more I started to believe his bullshit.
That's the thing that really annoys me about Dutch, he can't take criticism & if anybody doubts him it spoils his image.
@@j7jov32
Yeah. There's a camp event in Chapter 3 with Javier and Dutch, Javier questions him because he's confused about Dutch's plan for what they're doing next. Dutch then spins it around and implies that Javier is weak for ever doubting him. It's super gross and manipulative.
What breaks my heart about that vote before the gang set out to kill Bronte is that Hosea was silently begging Arthur NOT to agree with Dutch. But it was through that decision that was made at that moment, that is what lead to Hosea's and Lenny's deaths.
The gang shooting up braithwaite manor was the greatest mission in the whole game. It wasn’t only the most fun but it showed the brotherhood that the gang had before it came crashing down.
I feel Hoseas death and Micah’s “whispering” had a lot to do with it
I'm replaying it again currently and I already saw two times during chapter 3 Micah suggesting things to Dutch at camp and if you talk to Dutch he basically says he doesn't trust him and won't do whatever Micah suggested
So I rlly think Dutch was already going downhill before he started relying on Micah
Where's the proof mica was the rat just a short bit of dialog at the end of the game that doesn't even say anything much of what he supposedly said. Ironically abigail shoots him the person who is most likely to be a rat.
@@Thenorthsace why would abigale be a rat?
Not really... I mean Dutch was showing signs of being an narcissistic egomaniac wayyy before hosea died.... A lot of people don’t realise that.. The Braithwaite & Gray thing, Angelo Bronte, the Robberies and the whole Blackwater thing. Micah only started getting influence in the gang after death of Hosea. Dutch has always been a loose cannon
@@Thenorthsace why would agent milton capture his own rat in the gang that doesn't make sense.
The look of hurt on Arthurs face at 47:32 after Dutch lies to him about walking away is what gets me the most. Arthur felt betrayed and all those years that he was loyal to Dutch seemed like such a waste of time. I know this is just a game but it's so realistic and detailed.
Facts.
Real sad man!
Dutch did that because arthur has been doubting him multiple times and questioning along with him saving john without dutch say so
That almost broke me. I truly hated Dutch after that.
It's even more heart breaking knowing Arthur knew Dutch before the Van Der Linde gang.. Dutch and Hozea adopted Arthur as a young boy. Arthur literally grew up with the man and seen both him and Hozea as his father figures that he sorely lacked. He wasn't just witnessing the degeneration of his gang leader. He seen the degeneration of the person that he knew as his father and when Dutch betrayed him? Man..
I love this game's story. The main theme of the game is about Moral vs Loyalty and morality is what I strive for in this game. All the actions in this game I do my damnest to do good for everyone even if some play me like a fool. Arthur does his best for what's right for him and the gang rather than stay loyal and stick with ruthless Dutch.
If someone chooses morality over loyalty then he or she is evil person.
@Icy-be5vl huh?? Loyalty doesn't make you automatically good, and morality neither if your perspective on things is wrong, but still.
@@navonmyhand7999 You know what also doesn't make you a good person? Being manly and masculine.
I know this comment is 2 years ago but that sounds pretty retarded
Dutch already had it in for Arthur in Chapter 2. One camp encounter you'll see Dutch reading his book and he'll just outright tell Arthur that he'll betray him in the end.
I think exactly the same thing too
1) How do I trigger this encounter?
2) what's the exact quote?
@SteveCrafts2k no clue how to trigger it, talk to him while he's reading next to his tent. Don't know the exact quote, something like "I know you'll betray me in the end Arthur. You're the type".
@@MrFusion
Despite knowing Arthur for most of his life, and thus would know he'd never think to betray him...
Huh?
@@SteveCrafts2k keep going to camp and talking to everyone. Make a habbit of it. Things change almost every misson or side content. It's hard to say exactly how to trigger that quote.
Dutch almost saying “I’m sorry” to dying Arthur before Micah interrupted hurt so much. That split second of realization. It’s also very connected to Johns Epilogue where Dutch and John meet on the mountain
John: Dutch what are you doing here.
Dutch: Same as you I suppose.
I honestly don't think Dutch ever wanted Arthur to die, he was just so lost in Micah's manipulation that he couldn't realize the truth. Dutch's facial expressions and how he stutters seem real to me, he's shocked and depressed. He's so reluctant to follow Micah after realizing his mistake.
And yes it does connect to the Epilogue a lot.
@@idrisstark5916 Micah fueled his narcissism. Past his madness, I do think Dutch cared for the gang. He’s just so self-centered he’s easy to manipulate.
@@Odysseus1999 Yeah exactly. Dutch liked being complimented and I think one of the reasons he sided with Micah is because whenever he made a mistake or something like that, Micah would comfort him and reassure him and Arthur wouldn't. I think Micah never meant anything he said though, he was just jumping at an opportunity to spite Arthur
@@idrisstark5916 he was so blind it’s unreal like professional said a real leader listens to the people closest to them calling them out on bad decisions and ideas like Hosea did from the start and a bit later Arthur and John in the end Micah got in his head like you said and licked up to him stroking his ego Dutch couldn’t see what was happening, with Hosea dead and Arthur and John supposedly “questioning” him he just went full blown fuck everyone else and only wanted blind loyalty but was blind himself
@@lefty3985 Yeah I agree with you too, you make some good points.
It's quite interesting to see people blatantly accusing Dutch of being the real antagonist when that's not true. Sure, you could say he did some terrible things which he did, but it was mostly the influence of Micah and his crazed confusion that led him astray.
I don't believe Dutch is or always was a "bad guy". It's just his life style and ego led him astray. I think ultimately he had good intentions but couldn't deliver on them because of his refusal to change.
I agree! And the part of him doing a speech letter isn't bad in my opinion, he sure had some manipulating tendencies but obviously not with the gang he saw as an family through all his life, because, if he was bad all the time, then he wouldn't leave Arthur alone. So my conclusion is that he started revealing his most primitive instincts once all the stress of the situations came.
Well, I think that's a subjective thing to think about. After all, morality is very subjective. However, the atrocities he committed against innocent people, justified by his vision of a utopian world free of government, makes him a "bad guy". The innocent lives he killed or inadvertently killed makes him bad.
If he truly was a always a bad man he would’ve killed Arthur on the mountain
But he killed !any people in cold blood.
i think he's like Walter white turning into hesinberg
The part where Arthur says goodbye to Tilly and Jack brings me to tears every God damn time. Best character ever written if you choose the good storyline.
Cj from San Andreas
@@QuicklyFreeze no
@@QuicklyFreeze Great character. He’s not Arthur Morgan.
@@nephthysz yes
@@123Mathzak I didn't say that?
Honestly his last words hit hard when I think of how the Internet is like. People can start out as a loving group with similar interests and goals, but there’s always something that can break them apart and someone would lose their way in the process. Eventually the internet will find another monster or person to claim as one to justify their wages, egos, or their own other reasons. Some have good reasons, but others may ulterior motives.
Kinda Ironic John didn't want to Shoot Dutch even though Dutch left him to die. I think because John was seeing Dutch as his father. Also if You read Arthur's journal after American Venom You will see that John wanted to shoot Dutch but he didn't.
Right. Even in the first Red Dead Redemption, John couldn't bring himself to kill Dutch.
@@dm6182696 I kind of wish now that you had an option to capture bill instead of kill him.
@@COOLMCDEN no point ross would've hanged him So it would be absolutley unecesary
@@dukeofdogs6522 Part of me believes when he told Bill he wanted to save him he was open to helping bill escape or get out. Once he was shot by bills men and left it showed him even when bill had a choice he would still leave him for dead. If you factor in RDR 2 John would feel guilty and grateful for the second chance at life he got from Arthur’s sacrifice and want to be able to give that to his misguided brothers. Remember that Javier doesn’t even aim his weapon at Arthur or John in chapter 6 during the standoff. I partially believe John would have known he was being set up by Ross and try to perhaps ally w williamson untill after he sees first hand bill is now no better or saner than dutch.
@@victimizes1734 well Yes you do have a point but ross said that if he capture whats left of the van der linde gang he could live with his family did ross uphosld that promise od course not i think he would Just hang them So bill javier and dutch would all be dead
I hate Micah but can we appreciate the moment at 16:42 where he kills three men in three different spots within seconds of each other using his peacemakers. If Micah wasn't an ass hole, him and Arthur would have been an unstoppable duo.
*proceeds to miss at point blank range unloading at John during American Venom*
Yea the duo with most kills I bet
@@greenho4 he missed on puri
@@Floydtimbdujbk_ no hes farsighted that happens in the game a few more times
@@greenho4 he missed on purpose lol
I always found the initial speech of the game extremely weird
Davey just died in front of them and he somehow makes the conversation about himself, another sign of Dutch's narcissism.
The writers for this game are extremely talented. The way they crafted Dutchs character into such an endearing and relatable figure, it really creates an illusion and tricks players into admiring Dutch just like the gang. This makes the betrayal In the end all the more shocking.
I kinda don't feel the same way about the unexpected betrayal i always felt he's a poser who loves to play his role which just got confirmation when everything went different as his personal script. He was a lyer and deceiver from the beginning losing his mind just threw up his compass until he turned himself into anything he hates and this led up to just caring for himself as he lost himself more and more
@theRobson0908 most people who feel that way are people who played the first game. For those of us who started off playing Red Dead Redemption 2 viewed him in the way explained by JM.
Like jme said the writers indeed did an excellent job making us feel the way the game felt about Dutch. How we're pulled in by his Charming charismatic personality the way he dresses the way he carries himself. That's why those of us that didn't miss the Mark we took the shit he did to his family personal. Unfortunately for those that played the first game first you're not going to experience it on the same level that those of us who played the second game first. I didn't play the first game because I didn't know anything about the first game and what's funny is I was going to pass up a chance of playing the second one too because I'm not into Western shit like that. But something told me to get this game and I'm glad I did best decision I made.
I saw through dutch very early in the game, hated his guts all the way through, but i'm also the type of guy that hated walter white halfway through breaking bad.
31:47 dutch was reciting "Dutch's defense" a chess move that can lead to victory or end terribly bad...
So that's what that was called
that’s a easter egg lol i don’t think that’s story related, but if it is, then it might show that hes so egotistical that he thinks about chess moves just cuz it’s his name
@@trumpsbutt1497 I think it was foreshadowing
clint eastwood possibly but i doubt it. i think the only thing that could maybe even be considered as foreshadowing was the no traitors bs
@@trumpsbutt1497 It also shows that he sees everything the gang is going through as a mere chess game, him being the chess master and the gang being his pawns.
Am I wrong to have felt so strongly about Dutch? He was like a father to Arthur, and I spent many hours in his shoes. Seeing Dutch abandon him and change broke my heart, and when Arthur died shortly after, I have to admit I bursted out into tears
yes, you could already tell he was full of shit right from the start, changing the plan of going west safely in a snap of fingers for money
He known arthur for like 20 years he just abandon him
No, you're not wrong. That was the main reason I cried too. Here's Arthur; looks to Dutch as his Father and has been with him for more than 20 years...all for Dutch to piss it away for a man he met in a bar, and knew for 6 months. He threw Arthur's life away like trash and abandoned him to die alone (at that point Arthur probably preferred that though).
@@kimberlyh.1090 i mean Arthur is dying so he had nothing to lose
@@trollege9488 Np, it was when Arthur was dying he lost everything.
A detail I noticed early on that I finally got at the end was in the camp ledger in chapters 2 and 3. When you choose to upgrade the housing, the first mandatory option is to upgrade Dutch's tent because "Dutch wants something comfier." It's a nice detail of Dutch always prioritizing himself over the rest of the gang,
i literally watched this whole thing without skipping through it and i just have to say, this video is absolutely perfect and it really covers every single detail about dutch and how he “went crazy” lmao, amazing job
“the Dutch that put a blanket around me wasn’t the Dutch back there “ Sadie Adler
"Wasn't the dutch in Beaver Hollows" partner
"You see a man who changed. I see a man who got found out, for who he truly was." John Marston
@@hyenaloaf1858 "Amogus"
-bread defender
“Lumbago”
@@hyenaloaf1858 we are not the same
Another scene that was very revealing of Dutch's nature was the missable camp interaction between Dutch and Uncle at Beaver's Hollow. Basically Dutch hears Uncle telling some others around the fire about how Dutch was a fraud and mocking him. Dutch comes over, all joking, but suddenly the mask slips and he threatens to kill Uncle for questioning him. Then immediately he switches back to being jovial. Classic signs of sociopathy and quite a disturbing look at Dutch's true mindset.
I agree but how is it a sign of sociopathy exactly? I’d love if you could elaborate if it’s not to much trouble
I relieve that was at horseshoe overlook but I do remember that.
@@walter2721 yup horse overlook it was indeed
@@Saber23 it’s probably cause he’s personality changed whitch happens sometimes to psychos
@@codeyward4061 well most of the time psychopaths don’t really have a “personality” to begin with they just put on a mask to take advantage of people or fit in I don’t think Dutch did that also Psychopaths usually want instant gratification Dutch never really pursued that
I truly believe Dutch really cared, it really was just the losing of Sanity and the constant case of bad luck that made him become a person who cared only for them self’s to try and redeem what they thought they lost but was there the whole time, Humanity.
I mostly blame Micah and the added stress of his best men dying (especially Hosea). Dutch's reaction to Arthur's death is obvious that he cared, he just had an A class manipulator whispering to him. Micah is an extremely good manipulator, he's an opportunist who only started to get to Dutch when Hosea died and Arthur was supposed dead on Guarma.
I believe it to be a combination of ego, Micah and the concussion he recieved during the trolly heist. All of these factors seemed to play into him becoming more aggressive and prone to irrational decisions.
I think Dutch really REALLY started to change after their accident in the trolley. He got a head injury and seemed out of it more than usual. Dutch might have been a performer in a sense but he still cared about the gang. But after that accident something in his head flipped off
Hue Manatee
@@Pepe-pq3om what does that mean
There is also a note in Bronte's mansion where Bronte is telling Officer Lambert about the trolley job, little bit of background proof that proves 2 things: what you, Pro said and that Bronte tipped off Lambert
Honestly this game has one of the best stories I've played in years
"I gave you all I had." and just like that. After months away. Someone is cutting onions again. Great vid dude.
Dutch was the brain of the gang
Hosea was the conscience
Arthur was the heart
John was the gang's fate
Dutch is very much like Heath Ledger's Joker definition of insanity. He is madness. Micah pushed him little by little. He's a madman. A very charismatic and manipulative madman
I believe that during the trolly job when the trolly crashed and Dutch hit his head, Dutch gotta concussion. You notice after the trolly job he starts to change and become far worse. Remember when you come back from Guarma when Dutch asked Charles and Arthur to go and find the new camp I'm the cave he was very confused and repeating a bunch of random numbers. Micah realized it since the trolly job that there was a change in Dutch. Micah saw it as a way to get into Dutch's head. It's not just a coincidence that Dutch wanted to setup camp where he hid the money. I believe that Dutch and Micah went back for the money when he got back to land from Guarma. You notice Dutch and Micah took a while to get back. Micah new the jobs would go wrong. Micah wanted the gang to fall apart so he could get in Dutch's head so he can take the money for himself. He was the only one that asked about the money from black water after the black water heist.
Concussions normally alter people's personalities
Dutch murdered an innocent woman in blackwater for no reason so he obviously had something wrong with him from the start
"he met hosea, a con artist trying to rob him, and dutch was also trying to rob him, and they ended up not robbing each other and becoming best friends"
as all good friendships start
I think a lot of Dutch's lessons to the gang (revenge is a fools game, don't kill in cold blood, save folks that need saving etc) were not only lessons, but Dutch already understanding his true nature, and trying to teach people to be better than him.
He was already the man at the end of RDR2 as he was at the start, he was just a lot better at hiding it when things were going his way.
The fact that he understood his flaws, and for a time, used that to teach others how to be better; lessons which ultimetely worked as seen through Arthur. When I understood that, I respected Dutch's character a lot more.
One of the more different/ what I consider a completing insight, that I've seen here. I personally think at the start dutch thought he had a code- maybe he really did..but his moral fondation became compromised through;
micah's personality and tongue. Encouraging his mental short comings that though he may have been regid enough in his moral compass on how he liked to be treated as the "little guy on the totem pole" in the beginning that kept his true nature in check.
-Further mental illness setting in, industrialization being futile and lack of endgame via addiction to the thrill of the outlaw life, mental illness further exacerbated by a head injury. Where no fore thought and narscacism, etc. goes off the rails and sends the proverbial car off the embankment in flames.
All the while he clings to justification by saying its for the gang...much like Walter in breaking bad "I did it for you"
how do you explain the 180 though? nah I feel it was a gradual degradation maybe aggravated by the injury sustained in the rail car
@@aaron75fy with hosea gone and micah being Dutch's right hand man, I think Dutch grew irrational and impatient when it came to his decisions. Dutch no longer reasoned with logic. And as the gang fell apart, dutch could have felt that nothing he did went right, and he was aware that the Pinkertons were closing in on the gang, so he just needed an irrational plan to get the gang out. That's my thoughts at least
@@Enthusiast230 you don't say, I would never have guessed
@@aaron75fy Sure his head injury just further progressed his fall from grace, but he killed that girl in Blackwater so either his downfall began wayyyy earlier than any of the events of RDR2 or that he was always this way. To me, I’d say maybe the death of his girlfriend, the woman he loved, is what started his downfall. If he was always this way, I don’t think Hosea would have stayed with him all these years. He’s one of the smartest people in the gang, and he would have figured out that Dutch is a fraud decades ago.
I seldom - if not never - leave comments, but I loved this game and loved your in depth analysis of such a complex and human character. You answered a lot of questions I had about him and about the dynamics within the gang. Although it's a story of true redemption, it is also such a tragic story, even more so if you think of what happens to John and his family in RDD1. You did a magnificent job and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you very much for your hard work!
Dutch was always just a 2-bit criminal, but he was able to disguise it through his personal narcissism.
You hit the nail on the head. The mask that a Narcissist wears can be REALLY convincing especially if you are lost in life as all of his gang members were at some point.
He is at the same time a really complex character but also a very simple character which makes it work so well I think
@@mathiasstrom7790 Exactly, I love Dutch because we've all known a "Dutch" in our lives, but we can also see a bit of Dutch in ourselves. Too much pride to admit when you don't know what to do. His humanity is what makes him feel so complex.
Honestly the one scene that showed me Dutch was always crazy was when Arthur told him about Milton and Ross. When Arthur told him that they offered to let him walk if he gave up Dutch he asked Arthur why he didn’t take their offer. I mean the look on his face was serious at least to me it looked like it. Arthur seemed to think he was just pulling his leg but Dutch look way to serious when he said that.
Yeah, that to me shows that he is very insecure about himself, whenever he senses any chance of someone doubting him he will get extremely defensive and almost begging for validation. He truly believes that his bond with arthur could really be that shallow that arthur would abandon him, he has no faith in himself so he desperately needs faith from others to reasure him.
He says the same thing to colm as well during The parlay The only difference is Colm was gonna take the offer
That’s a good insight. We know that Arthur is (at that point) unshakably loyal to Dutch and may argue with his decisions but would never, ever turn on him. If Dutch were a healthy, secure man, he’d know that about Arthur, too - the only reasons he’d seriously question Arthur’s loyalty is if his own loyalty to Arthur was less than 100% or if there was a seed of paranoia in him starting to grow.
Yeah, and during chapter 2 there's an encounter you can have with him (maybe a few) where he seems to be really uncharacteristically paranoid out of nowhere, thinking that people are talking behind his back or whatever, accusing Arthur of playing games with him.
I think this indicates that Dutch suffers from some sort of preexisting mental illness that he tries to keep suppressed. Behind the ego and the grand visions lies a deep seated level of insecurity and paranoia and uncertainty and resentment.
I don't think he was always the kind of person he was at the end of the story, but I do think he's had problems for a long time that the stress of all the loss of life and the burdens of leadership exacerbated over time.
I actually viewed that as Dutch being very self-aware. He knows he has a huge price on his head, and the logical thing for a person to do would be to get as far away from Dutch as possible. At that point in the game, there's no indication that Dutch would go after former gang members, and even when they started to leave much later in the game, he didn't go after them.
Another way it can be seen as a person who is insecure, which Dutch has shown to be, starting from Blackwater and increasingly so as more people die and each plan fails.
When I finished red dead redemption 2 for the first time I thought of it as Arthur being a good person convincing himself that he's bad person, while Dutch was a bad person trying to convince himself that he was a good person but in the end when they got faced with the most desperate of times their true nature came out for the better and the worst.
So like breaking bad?
@@Python-xs2iv BRUH YES THATS ACTUALLY SO ACCURATE
@@tinocabral4201 I've seen a lot of people call Jesse a good man trying to be bad while Walt is a bad man trying to be good. So I thought it would be a good comparison
Immediately following Hosea's death Dutch no longer hides his true self. Literally minutes later he abandons John at the Saint Denis bank
Absolutely stoked for more these back stories and your analysis of the characters in this incredible story and one of the greatest in game stories I think I have ever played is truly catching.
It is telling that you really did spend a great deal of time on this and we all thank you for your hard work and dedication. 👏 This was and I believe you have a gift for this sort of thing!
Because I wanted to keep hearing more and that is hard to capture an audience just with your opinion. With that said it was done almost flawlessly and you need to keep going and do more character assessments of each individual that plays a big part in the games success 🙌 this was very well done and I would listen to more if you would take the time again to create your thoughts on these kind of videos in the future. Thank you again and seriously amazing job! 🙏☝😊👍
The reason Dutch is the best antagonist in Rockstar Games is because of how complex of a character he is
Its also a paradox of rockstar warning themselfs
I feel like Dutch could use Michel and Lester from gta v. I mean for them even if things went wrong they would always get the money lol
Gta 5 is literally a parody of real life. There are bits of humour in everything and game is designed for you to do as much fun as you can. So you win practically everytime.
I feel like Dutch could have used John Marston from RDR1. In that game you have success in every single chapter, every single mission... until you win the game and reunite with your family to be a husband and father. Only then is there a tragic ending.
So RDR1 is about losing John's life, even after winning everything.
In RDR2, Dutch could also have used less of himself. The only successful mission is the one where Arthur goes back to rob the Valentine bank and Dutch has absolutely nothing to do with it. Every other mission is some kind of failure. That's why the ending of the main story is such a gut-punch, even though you see it coming - you never achieved anything.
So RDR2 is about winning John's life, even after losing everything.
But even though it tries to pull off the same epilogue with John Marston at Beecher's Hope, RDR2's main story is tragic from the first scene to the very last. That's why the new game makes people depressed and the original game doesn't.
@@adityaganjoomech The GTA series is actually a work of satire, which is a commentary of real life. A work of parody on the other hand is a comedic imitation of ANOTHER work, not of real life or real people. However, a satire can contain elements of parody. For example, the movie Michael DeSanta co-produces is a parody of every bad cheap action sequel ever. But the fact he's co-producer at all is a satire of how a no-talent criminal can get his name in the credits of a movie in Hollywood just by being muscle for the executive producer.
@@GlennDavey yes! Satire is a better word for it. Thanks
Ik they have incredible luck
I just finished this video and cannot thank you enough for someone finally being able to analyze Dutch's decent into madness. And the key hints as to why Dutch shot Micah was finally explained after 3 years of questioning it.
This is the kind of video i really enjoy. I've been a Dutch sympathizer since i started playing, partly due to the fact that i havn't played the first one in years, but also partly due to the fact that you just want to believe in him.
I've always been of the mind that Dutch was a good guy at heart. He saved Sadie when he didn't have to. I mean, let's face it, killing her would've been much easier to do, but he took her in, made sure she was looked after. He did care, he had a heart. But that's just the thing isn't it? He HAD a heart.
I still believe that Dutch was a good guy, just tainted as a result of some mistakes and an overinflated ego. Maybe that's the truth of it, or maybe he really was just a damn good speaker
He admitted he fight his urges for years. His urges to be his true self. “He fought his whole life.” But he can’t get up either because it’s in his nature. It’s a paradox. I think before Dutch met Hosea, he was a heartless killer but adopted most of Hoseas ideologies. Learned to control himself.
So he's technically like paarthurnax from Skyrim. They are born evil but able to overcome their nature yet there's not a day where they are not tempted to return to their own true nature.
@@afggetlost1342 except Paarthunax has time on Dutch, lol. decent comparison, though.
I like that analysis.
@@afggetlost1342 Partysnax never pretends to be better than the other dragons the way that Dutch pretends to be better than the other gangs.
@@geoffreysorkin5774 he is talking about pre meditation paarthurnax. cold blooded killer dragon
i hate that even after everything dutch has done i can’t bring myself to hate him. egotistical figures like him are usually the type of people i despise the most but i find his charisma endearing. he’s the type of villain you wish was good
I hated Dutch more than Micah, I have never felt his charisma. I feel like the gang would've ended up better if Hosea was in charge
@@AnacondaVice you really think all those personalities in the gang would be united under Hosea ? Don't be naive. You might not feel it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
@@AnacondaVice I really miss Hosea, he never got anything wrong ever. Except Saint Denis job, but that was most likely Micah snitching out to Pinkertons as usual
@@leone41ll you must have forgot the scene between Hosea and Micah when that rat rubbed him the wrong way. Hosea is smart and is definitely no pushover.
@@Nishawnsworld Not being a pushover and having the charisma to unite outlaws, of different backgrounds, are two separate things.
this is a great video, it really helped me understand Dutch and the story better as a whole.
As soon as I seen the name of this video I knew I neesss to hear it.
Can we just say how great the start of this was , not only thanking your friend but going through extra mile advertising it.
Just such a genuinely good kind man
Dutch's death is a direct reference to rdr2 when he and Arthur is cornered by the us army and jump into a river. The speech has simular elements like i "have a plan, this is a good one"
Its the other way around, but yeah. I just finished playing that part and thought it was familiar.
@@SkatePunkBanana he also says he has been fighting change and you cant fight nature in both scenes
In lore wise maybe but this is rockstars way of making a direct reference that only people who played the original would understand
Uncle says in camp that Dutch wants to be 'an American king with all his knights'. Its a perfect summary of the true Dutch.
Uncle was super wise, he is pretty much always right.
@@leehalloway8787 annoyingly wise to be more specific
Uncle was often right
@@syteanric lumbago
@@tinocabral4201 Sir it is 2021 and you just made a lumbago joke. Please find the nearest exit.
Amazing video. I always enjoyed Dutch and this made me appreciate him even more than I already did.
Dutch forgets who he is, its clear throughout the game that Dutch has been reading a lot of philosophy books and fancies himself some sort of Robin hood character, yet he has Strauss lending money to poor people who can't possibly pay it back and permitted Micah into the gang despite him being a cut-throat mercenary thief. He goes from being a petty King figure of his gang to anti-state revolutionary (which no one else is on board with).
I never really got the message that other members in the group were around for the anarchist, free-state Dutch wanted to create away from industry society. They just wanted to survive and Dutch gave them way to do it when they were at their lowest.
I started playing rdr2 shortly after getting out of a real toxic relationship and I noticed A LOT of manipulation tactics my ex used. One method I think is important when you mentioned how he admitted to using the natives, a lot of sociopaths or manipulators will do something to "test the waters" so to speak to see how much they can get away with. They will say something very out of the ordinary or shocking and gauge the reaction, if the reaction is negative they deflect. They say they were joking or you misunderstood them and re-explain in fancier fluff to prance around what they just said. I noticed Dutch does that a lot.
Dutch is definitely a narcissist - you can tell both in the way he speaks to people, and how he constantly surrounds himself with people who are going to stroke his ego. I think that at some fundamental core, Dutch feels like the world owes him something. It owes him money, it owes him freedom, it owes him loyal people. And as the story progresses, Dutch gets more desperate to claim all the things he believes are owed to him. He takes more risks, and ultimately risking the people who genuinely cared for him.
Bit late but glad to hear you’re out of a toxic relationship 🙌
Well, lesson learnt for everyone!
Thanks for sharing dear fella, hope you do better
Doesn't take a mountain of effort for Natives to hate American society.
I'm Mi'kmaq by the way.
@@trige000 well I mean all you gotta do is call a native a redskinned Indian that makes crazy noises and murders white people. That sentence can get you in a bad spot, depending on the native person.
I honesty think that The Blackwater Massacre messes him up mentally. Ever since he killed Heidi McCourt, he’s felt guilt about killing her. Before that, he always took Arthur’s and Hosea’s advice.
You don’t know he always took their advice before that. We haven’t seen that. I’m pretty sure Dutch and Hosea were against the ferry robbery. Dutch went through with it anyway
@@jaimelannister1797 arthur and hosea we working on a new lead but micah suggest the ferry. 🤷♀️
I think that he was desperate to justify his actions to assuage his guilt.
@@jaimelannister1797 arthur and hosea are the one who against the ferry job
Wow! Great job on this video! You got everything SPOT ON! Very well done! Excellent video!
We also have to remember that as the game progressed he saw Mac, Davey, Jenny, Sean, Lenny, Kieran and his right hand Hosea die and the heat coming on the gang after Blackwater. When everything was going wrong it is possible that with everyone questioning him for bad luck his morale went down and with micah being a yesman, he could have been easily manipulated by micah to change. Kind of like if his morale started depending solely on Micah. Plus in Saint Denis he takes a huge hit to the head which I imaigine had some sort of effects on his brain. Honestly at the end who knows who Dutch really aas at the start of RDR2.
The more I got to know Dutch he started to remind me of Walter from Breaking Bad series. And like Walter his self absorbed ego got the better of him. Dutch's big vision was really only his and all those that were really loyal to him or more so to each other and the the cause paid the price for his arrogance. Arthur reminded me of the character Mike from the Breaking Bad series. And like Mike, Arthur was loyal and a competent soldier who should had walked away from Dutch/Walter long before it cost him his life in the service of an self absorb ego maniac .
The mike to Arthur comparison is golden. Mike was also caring and methodical just like Arthur, all the money he was earning was for his grandkid. I also remember that he wouldn't break from his tried and tested methods and principles, just like how Arthur learned to never kill in cold blood and how revenge is a fools game.
He reminds me much more of Jim Jones The cult leader from jonestown
This was the first comparison that come to mind
If Dutch is Walter and Arthur is Mike then that means that Trelawny is Saul Goodman
Walter was uber-intelligent. Dutch was fairly dim.
dude the shakyness in Eagle flies father's voice when he's trying to talk them out of it gets me everytime.
He knows it was a losing war from the start and Dutch Manipulated Eagle flies in the end.
Rains falls was the name of his father
Edit: it’s even sadder when you meet him in the epilogue
I know that this is an old post... but I have to comment anyway.
I just got RDR ll today. I've never played it before and thought I'd do a bit of research, kinda get a "quick start" before trying to play.
I am floored at how you put up videos like this one. Obviously it takes you a lot of time to do these. That, and plus the fact that you actually have the time to play these games as well. Totally mind boggling.
Thanks for all the work you do... so much appreciated.
I have watched this video more than3 times now but I can't stop coming back as, the edits and the way you talk about the game history is just awesome, I will be back to comment on this comment to say thanks.
When Arthur said "yeah... INSIST" it sounded So badass.
I liked his confrontation with Milton on the riverbank with Jack.
"You enjoy bein' a rich man's toy, do ya!"
coolest line in the game
I SAID YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHH
He INSISTS upon it... Insist.. Are you comfortable with this plan, or do you INSIST on something else?
@@electricc437 I insist to shoot Arthur
@@LaloSillymanca Ah yes, one of the greatest antagonists in a Video Game.
Besides the head injury, Bronte's betrayal has a disillusionment factor. Dutch wants to believe in "honor among thieves", but Bronte sets him up with the trolley station robbery clearly hoping to have Dutch killed or arrested. He feels naive, embarrassed, and from then on, Dutch becomes far more vindictive and opportunistic.
He got played by the hillbillies who killed his dad and buy Bronte. I think that Dutch really just had a breakdown more than anything. Doesn’t excuse but explains. Side note, people really need to understand excuses and explanations are different.
Fantastic work! Well done and right on brother 👊