RTX 4070 SUPER - Cyberpunk 2077 & Phantom Liberty - The Complete Benchmark
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ส.ค. 2024
- Cyberpunk 2077 with the Phantom Liberty DLC running on the Nvidia GeForce RTX 4070 Super 12GB GPU at 1080p, 1440p, 4K and 8K resolutions, using the Ray Tracing Overdrive (Path Tracing), Ultra Ray Tracing, Ultra and High settings presets, with and without DLSS, Frame Generation and Ray Reconstruction!
⏱ Timestamps ⏱
Intro, Specs, Stuff - 0:00
1080p RT Overdrive - 0:46
1080p RT Overdrive / DLSS Quality - 2:26
1080p RT Overdrive / DLSS Quality / FG - 3:36
1080p RT Overdrive / DLAA / FG - 4:35
1080p RT Overdrive / DLSS Quality - 5:16
1440p RT Overdrive - 5:28
1440p RT Overdrive / DLSS Quality - 6:07
1440p RT Overdrive / DLSS Quality / FG - 7:20
4K RT Overdrive - 8:15
4K RT Overdrive / DLSS Performance - 8:59
4K RT Overdrive / DLSS Performance / FG - 10:10
4K RT Overdrive / DLSS Performance - 10:49
4K RT Overdrive / DLSS Performance / FG - 10:49
1080p RT Ultra - 11:35
1080p RT Ultra / DLSS Quality - 12:47
1080p RT Ultra / DLSS Quality / FG - 13:34
1440p RT Ultra - 14:11
1440p RT Ultra / DLSS Quality - 15:00
1440p RT Ultra / DLSS Quality / FG - 15:52
4K RT Ultra - 16:35
4K RT Ultra / DLSS Quality - 17:22
4K RT Ultra / DLSS Quality / FG - 18:23
4K RT Ultra / DLSS Performance - 19:16
4K RT Ultra / DLSS Performance / FG - 19:58
1080p Ultra - 20:50
1080p Ultra / DLSS Quality - 21:45
1080p Ultra / DLSS Quality - 23:02
1080p Ultra / DLAA / FG - 23:35
1080p Ultra / DLSS Quality / FG - 24:17
1440p Ultra - 25:28
1440p Ultra / DLSS Quality - 27:06
1440p Ultra / DLSS Balanced / FG - 27:52
1440p Ultra / DLSS Quality / FG - 28:21
4K Ultra - 29:13
4K Ultra / DLSS Quality - 29:36
4K Ultra / DLSS Quality / FG - 29:58
4K Ultra / DLSS Performance - 30:55
4K Ultra / DLSS Performance / FG - 31:38
1080p High - 32:18
1080p High / DLSS Quality - 33:12
1080p High / DLSS Quality / FG - 33:38
1440p High - 34:09
1440p High / DLSS Quality - 34:55
1440p High / DLSS Quality / FG - 35:38
4K High - 36:11
4K High / DLSS Quality - 36:40
4K High / DLSS Performance - 37:19
4K High / DLSS Performance / FG - 37:46
8K High - 38:52
8K High / DLSS Performance - 39:33
8K High / DLSS Ultra Performance / FG - 40:23
8K High / DLSS Performance / FG - 40:47
🔧 SPECS 🔧
◾️ CPU - AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D (only 3D cores enabled, similar to 7800X3D)
◾️ Cooler - Deepcool LT720 AIO
◾️ Nvidia GeForce RTX 4070 12GB SUPER - Founders Edition
◾️ RAM - 32GB DDR5 6000MHz (2x16GB CL30)
◽️ OS - Windows 11 Pro
◽️ SSD - Kingston NV2 512GB
◽️ SSD 2 - Lexar PCIe 4.0 2TB (games installed here)
◾️ Motherboard - Asrock B650 PG Riptide Wifi
◾️ PSU - Corsair HX1200
◾️ Case - Phanteks P500A
🎥 Recorded with a capture card for no FPS loss.
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Thanks for watching :) - เกม
Kryzzp *opens Cyberpunk*
Bob: Oh fucking hell not again
Path Tracing is not a technology preview anymore since Patch 2.1 just a very intensive graphics setting for future graphics cards.
Oh cool! Didn't know! Thanks :)
@@zWORMzGaming You're welcome! ;)
for PTX 5090 😂
Exactly next series will be from RTX Ray tracing extreme to PTX path tracing extreme 😂😂
@@gamingcomputers7485
I doubt. Only improvement will be in frame generation, and resterision improvement only of 25-30%, cause the node will shrinking only by a little bit.
damn bro your videos are always so intertaining, i love them. keep it up
Yessss... This is what I've been waiting for!
Wow the 4070 super is considerably better than the 4070. Crazy difference
Indeed, nice card.
@@zWORMzGamingyes they should name them with other brand like super is 4070 and regular one is 4060ti
too bad it aint selling. or rather, good they aint selling. 670 euro for a 12gb barely 1440p capable card?? come on nvidia
15% that's just a little improvement nothing else. Well and it isnt as overpriced
@@elitepauper7400its one of the most bought card 😂😂
39:54 how can you tell the difference between 4k and 8k? If you have 4k monitor. Is it placebo effect?
When I first reached the dlc area I was surprised by how intensive it was both in terms of Cpu and Gpu, especially when compared to base game
My favorite reviewer benchmarker of all time amazing video..
Bruh I'd like to C this card tested with multiple title if its possible in one video at 1440p & 4k TY
Frame generation really shines when you don't need it.
Yeah this is spot on. When you struggle to hit 60fps FG would be a nice feature to help you hit that mark, except it's useless then. When you've already got high frames it gives you a nice bonus, but for games that really benefit from high refresh rate/fps FG is useless as it increases latency which defeats the purpose. And if you're running a 4k/60hz monitor it's practically worthless.
FG - works great, you just to blurt it out
@@steviewonder0850 Not sure if you've ever played with FG on, but the latency is almost unnoticeable (as long as you're hitting 65-70fps), and if you're gonna play with a controller, there's no reason to not turn it up
@@lordmorpheus7281 "as long as you're hitting 65-70fps" - that's exactly what I said
The thing here is that when you enable FG, those 70fps turns into 120 up to 140 fps, which really adds a lot of smoothness to the game, and honestly i don't really feel any input lag, the feature is just there to add more fluid gameplay, this is not Valorant or CSGO to care about the input lag.
Could you include optimized settings in future? For me itd be useful to see how cyberpunk performs on optimized settings such as hardware unboxed ones, cus it can deliver up to 50% faster performance than ultra for the basically the same visual quality
you really have a video for everything how do you keep up haha, i love it
RT Overdriver: "Tell Me, Do You Bleed?"
That is nice and I want to upgrade but im waiting for the next gen gpus thanks for benchmark keep it up ❤❤❤
This is the 4070 we actually wanted as the official release in the 40 series family.
Not quite, still needs 16gb vram
@Dempig it would be nice for it to have 16 GB but it doesn't NEED it
@@Hydra_X9K_Musicit definitely needs it
@@farazsiddiqui1312 at 4K maybe, but not 1440p.
@@farazsiddiqui1312 only for 4k which its not good for. 1440p should be fine until 60 series hoping.
How low could you get a 3070 super wattage? I was going to try 95 watts on mine.
Hello friend, I am planning to get that card but I am still on a Ryzen 5600X, you think it could be fine?
You'll be fine at 1440p :)
Enjoy the card!
I know it makes it much harder to test, but just an FYI when it comes to Cyberpunk 2077 (according to Digital Foundry): When you alter the in-game graphics settings too many times, it begins to cause a detrimental performance on the overall FPS, and they recommend that if you're testing different graphics options to close the game entirely after changing them, and reopen it to get the true expected framerate.
So some of these might actually perform a bit better than what is being shown, the next time you boot up the game.
ohh wow, could you informe me on where you that info please? thanks :D
Question,are you using 2 pc´s to record and play? because i don´t have 40 series just 3060 but i see you play these games with good fps,my pc it's 13600k,3060 12gb,32gb ddr4 3200 and HD 2tb black.
Yes, I use another PC with an i5 11400F and a 3060 Mobile to record everything through an elgato 4k60 pro MK2 installed on a razer core X, running through thunderbolt 4.
That sentence was bigger than I expected it to be lol
Wish i could have a second pc only to record with OBS,normally obs + a heavy game kill the vram,the only way to for example stream a heavy game is using action wich is good but at the same time not the same thing as obs with the overlays and so. Thanks for answer and sorry for my bad english i studied by myself. Greetings from Argentina @@zWORMzGaming
do you think it would be a good upgrade from my 3060 ti. i play at 1440p/144 hz monitor. or should i just wait and last a bit longer with my 3060 ti
The 4070 Super would be a huge upgrade from the 3060ti. It's literally over 2x as powerful. I like the idea of only upgrading GPUs if the next one is at least 100% better.
at 5:50 love how it goes from being chased, to let's kill bob, where is he?! poor bob. stood no chance lmao GOODBYE BOB!!!!
Can you try only using frame generation with no DLSS in some settings, I think that will be fun to see :)
can i run all games on 768p i5 4670k 16gb 1060 6gb med high ultra texter 45fps ?
I wonder if the 4070 Ti Super pairs well with a Ryzen 9 5950x and gets good frame rates at 1440p on ultra ray tracing
That bar on left which app is it?
what version is it? Patch 2.1 or 2.0x ?
Thank you for the great content, i was wondering you can lock ( without issues 😂 ) the fps with frame generation ?
Locking to 120 feels nice, but unlocked is better with that tech
@@zWORMzGaming thank u very much ❤️
i saw on steam free fps software for any gpu lossless scaling they added frame generation and it works almost in every game i am curious if you could try it with some older gpus
Lossless Scaling
For 1440p/RT Overdrive, should've tested it with Balanced which is the default/recommended DLSS preset for 1440p.
Yo Kryzzp, would you know why is Witcher 3 running so bad with the next gen dx12? Been wanting to finish it but it’s unplayable for me.
That's why I stopped testing that game, it's too stuttery... Better use the old version!
@@zWORMzGaming would you recommend ultra or high settings on DX11? I have a 3060 ti.
Hey man it would be cool if we could see how much input lag there is for something like frame generation! Maybe we could get like a kbm cam when you turn it on! Up to you though😄
Hey buddy, why u not making videos on gtx 1650 , did u sell it? It's the no. 1 card on steam and u should kept it and tested it quite often
What exactly RAM do you have with 30 timings?) I want the same bro)
This kit: www.teamgroupinc.com/en/product-detail/memory/T-FORCE/delta-alpha-rgb-ddr5-white/delta-alpha-rgb-ddr5-white-FF8D532G6000HC30DC01/
at 1440p in dlss quality, this generation (4070 super) can achieve at Pathtracing the same framerate that last generation (3070) could achieve at RT Ultra.
That's actually pretty insane!
this man must have more gpu's than the average nvidia production facility
People should be thankful that he is reviewing them.
Can u try 8k at ultra with rt overdrive and no upscaling? And try to atleast get a playable 240fps otherwise might aswell throw 4090 in trash
I think you should restart the game after each time you apply the settings, especially in 4k, for clearer results. What do you think?🤔
All 12 GB of VRAM is pretty much utilized at 1080p with RT overdrive. No wonder the 1% lows were almost half the average framerate. An extra 4 GB of VRAM sure would be nice on a card of this pricepoint. NVIDIA I'm talking to you!
They basically needed an extra selling feature to have the 4070 Ti Super make sense, so they gimped the 4070 Super with only 12 GB of VRAM and here are the results. Skeezy move.
I'm going for the 7900 GRE for pure raster performance and more VRAM for futureproofing. I couldn't care less about ray tracing if this is the performance hit it has.
Hi! Man
Im building a pc with
Intel i3 12100f with gtx 1660 super for 1080p gaming. Do you think its worth $565?
İ3 probably very lower
i was wondering; how come you've not made any videos on the rx 7900 xtx?
AMD doesn't answer my 500 emails and it's too expensive
@@zWORMzGaming then go for 501.
I get 45-50 fps on my OC card with path tracing with DLSS Q at 1440p. Honestly, with all the talk about super high latency that comes with FG, I was expecting it be way more noticeable. Got my framerate to 70-80s and I'm enjoying full path tracing for $600. Feels super smooth.
Don't buy into the latency thing unless you plan to use FG on competitive games or at like 30fps, which you wouldn't do anyways.
Can you do ddr4 vs ddr5 in the finals? I think memory speed makes a big difference in this game
It still depend on which ddr4 and ddr5 kit and timing etc
4070 Super vs 4070Ti in your test?
Thank you samurai, I now know I need something above the 4070 super (though pre-update I would’ve been fine) I’ll see how the 4070 ti super performs I suppose 😭
Please test any laptop with Intel I7 1195 G7 with Iris Xe 96
I'd love to see a video of testing ReSTIR GI Path Tracing and Nova LUT on 4070 Super
Can you please benchmark the arc A380 please LCrispo
I don't have one yet! But I'd like to check it out and it's not expensive, so I might get it :)
Apparently, the 4070 SUPER is not selling well and you can see it's still available at MSRP (but in Philippines it's $750 lol). It's actually pretty crazy for me to see gamers wanting more VRAM instead of RTX features and a bit more performance for a $100 premium.
Interesting! This is the only GPU on the 40 series lineup that actually is decent value! Maybe it should've come earlier.
@@zWORMzGaming Exactly, it is the 4070 that should have been. Might have been better if it had 16GB though.
@@zWORMzGaming its because 7900\xt fall down in price
@@shadowlemon69 wtf tahts crazy even here in your neighbor country Indonesia it costs around 640$ so not as bad and the same launch price we had for the normal 4070
@@Eleganttf2 I checked again and the cheapest model is PHP38,000 or $700, but still. Very expensive.
Do you switch on hdr on your c2?
No
hey, could you please test the rtx 3060 ti in this title?
I already have, in the base game, not the DLC!
@@zWORMzGaming does it perform there the same as in the dlc?
What is wrong with this game frametimes? Even on high constant frames the frametime is really "stuttery"
how much do you think the 4080 price would decrease when the 4080 super comes out?
They're discontinuing it, so I think it won't drop much, maybe to about the same as the super, or like 50$ less until it's gone.
my question is what happens to warranties on 4070ti and 4080s since they arent making them anymore @@zWORMzGaming
Cheers ❤
I am getting really inconsistent power draw with my new 4070 Super. 99% usage, but in a few games, it chover around 170w, in others, 220w. Feels like a driver issue.
It's normal behavior on the 40 series
How your gpu temp is 55 mine is on full load 81°c
cooler probs?
Why would you disable core's on your CPU??
In the BIOS :)
Oh I read "how"
It's because windows sometimes will make the game run on the non 3D cores and it drops performance by a lot
love you kryzzp
True test
True conclusion
Is it better to use resize bar in 4070ti?
Yes
good video
Thanks!
Im playing this game with a 4070ti and 5800x3d on 1440p ultra rt dlss Q and at least in Dogtown i am pretty much CPU bottlenecked to around 60 to 70 fps with lows in the 40s and 50s since Update 2.1. Looking at Benchmarks this CPU should still be one of the best for this game so idk why its so demanding on the CPU now. Anyone else seeing this kind of stuff or is that unusual performance?
Hello again Kryzzp :), hope you are doing great bud. I can't wait for 4070 Ti Super actually.
Coming soon! :)
Thanks! Hope you're doing well too!
Bro you were so quick to reply that you probably didn't see my edit lol
Oh and 4070 Ti Super is coming to me aswell hehehe @@zWORMzGaming
Edit: Wow you seen it nvm.
6:45 „not play the game like this“ but this is my dream to play it with rt od 🥺
Amazing video can you test the GTX 1650 SUPER? It’s an older card but works!
there is probably other videos for a card so old. if you plan on playing newer games it might be time to think about upgrading. the 1650 super isn't going to be able to handle many newer games and its getting worse for older cards
@@davidfrazier6308alright i have a pc rn but only have gta5 and rdr2 and they run around 45fps with high settings with a GTX 1650 SUPER, but im saving up for a new pc!
I same discossus
my 3070ti gets almost the same frames at 1440p ultra. guess the 4070 isnt worth an upgrade
1440p path tracing w DLSS and FG seems quite playable tbh
Ray Reconstruction is not worth it, sure it makes reflections look like mirrors while using DLSS but it also makes everything else super blurry and adds tons of ghosting to moving cars, objects and people
What does Overdrive do?
It's fully Path Traced, way more intensive than the "normal" Ray Tracing
@@zWORMzGaming does it make that mutch difference
@@Plastino2It actually does. It looks so much better
Might get this card, bit of an upgrade from my 1060
4070ti super will really shines on top for high vram and path tracing performance is beyond any amd card currently
its also $800+ for less raster than a 7900xt for $700
@@Alexito2003 dlss quality is basically free frames with 0 visual loss, so at least that's nice
@@Efsaaneh 0 visual loss? 🤣
Yes. Zero visual loss.@@SpanishGamers
@@mitsuhh No
yea pretty much same setup as yours, 1040p, DLSS Frame Generation, DLSS Quality, Full Ray Tracing psycho, All max settings psycho (forget the path tracing, path tracing can look really wierd at times). 100 to 120fps in dogtown, 120 to 130+ FPS in night city. Its really the best way to play this game.
1040p ????
1440p or 1080p
@@alperenyesilyurt3910 1440, 2k
Waiting on my MSI 4070 super in the mail!
Enjoy the card!
@@zWORMzGamingThanks, just built up my first pc, running smooth as butter.
@@zWORMzGamingI'm getting 230fps vs 130fps from the old 3060ti. COD MW3. Without frame generation still around 170fps. No DLSS, only fidelity. Amazing.
@@RealMTBAddict u upgrade from Rtx 3060ti? Then maybe it’s time for my gtx 1070 to go 😂
@@silence7359 Do whatever works for you. Don't focus on other people.
enabling Ray Reconstruction at Ultra probably enabled some kind of Ray Tracing because it shouldn't even work without it
hi my friend !!very glad see you in new video hop u spend nice weekend!!finaly Nvidia made good GPU!!u will get 4080 Super ??thanks as always nice to flow every video!!have fun
Hi! Thanks mate, weekend was great testing the Ti super 😃
Yes I'll get the that one as well!
@@zWORMzGaming i think the Ti super will be the right choihe cause of 16 GO Vram suply and many others boust with nice price !!thanks as always great be part of ur nice comunauty !!take care
Please send it over to me when you're done with the benchmarks.
Maybe people forgot that 4K is actually 4 times the 1080p, not two times. Even if you utilize DLSS Performance at 4K, the intensiveness intensifies are the same as doubling your 1080p performance. So keep that in mind. That thing is not for gaming actually. 1080p gaming will long last forever I would say but not on this card. Who would want to spend RM2500 for a 1080p card? Ridiculous.
What an amazing amount of effort from you, thank you very much 🙂
now I know not to buy a 4070 super simply bcoz of 12GB. it's gonna be worse in future games.
if you see tests somehow 40 series gpu split ram gpu and pc , when 30 fully indepence
?@@Draconius1000
Hey zWORMz, you should try cod warzone 3 once more fsr 3 has come officially on cod and also love your videos🎉
Hey Kryzzzp! When is you birthday?
Hi! Mid of May, why do you ask? :)
@@zWORMzGaming so I can wish you a happy birthday when it’s your birthday!
Had mine since Friday, the Palit NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 Super. I love it, I built my first gaming pc with the Ryzen 5 7600x cpu and 32GB 6000mhz ram. My farewells to my ps5 aha.
Then what are you gonna do when GTA VI releases? GTA VI won't come out for PC lol
GtaVI releases
PS5: How's the turntables?😂
Definitely not saying goodbye to my PS5, I also just built a beast, r7 78003dx, 32gb 6000 ram, rtx 4070 super 12gb, it's a monster and I love it but that vram usage is pretty much maxed in cyberpunk max settings.
1:58 i discovered that the roundabout there is the most cpu intensiv part of the whole game (look how the utilization climbs up). I also posted a video on my chanal how bottlenecking it could be.
for those who want an nvidia only gpu and decided to buy the rtx 4070 super just wait a little bit and buy the rtx 4070 ti super
a little high in price but definitely worths more over the 4070 super
No get super then upgrade to a higher card later with fixed price
@@scope-me2604if you dont care for RT
definitely need to restart.
Can you please do Ryzen 5 4600g with rx 580 8gb?
I don't have that CPU. However, you can expect similar results to my 580 videos since your CPU doesn't bottleneck it!
Just upgrade to 16GB because a lot of games will not run well on 8!
@@zWORMzGaming Thank you very much for answering! And yes i do have 16gb ram so its all good.Which videos should i watch with the rx 580 to see similar fps? The cpu in your vidoes are usually different
@@zWORMzGaming yooo just got the gpu and installed it any tips on what should i do to get the max performance other than install the driver
Would you do a minecraft one?
I'll see what I can do!
I have 60 -70 fps in the same spot on rtx 3060ti at 4k, RT off, DLSS auto, high settings......
3060ti is a lot slower
топ карточка для 2к по соотношению цена качество
can you imagine that frame generation stutter on vr 🤢
I wish this s*** had 16 gigabytes. I returned mine. It just didn't sit well with me paying nearly $700 after tax for 12 gigs. Damn it was sexy tho. I got the ASUS dual white.
Would u be getting the ti super or 4080
I got mysefl a windforce 4070 super. It's quite nice in terms of temps but.. the coil whine. I can't just give it back anymore since I used it. And I can't live with that buzzing sound under the table.
That was supposed to be a purchase for years to come and now I don't know how to live with it. Also it was a challenge to close the case with nvidia adapter, I bent it and I might burn
Usually there's a 2 week return policy, at least in Europe it's a law.
Check if you can return it, you could say it's not meeting expectations or just tell them about the coil whine, I'm sure you can return or RMA it
@@zWORMzGamingI'll try but here you usually can't just return it after you opened everything and used it. You test so many cards. Do you get coil whine often?
when 4090 in cod ?(
I need a gpu who can give good fps by not using dlss etc
then pay more.
Why did they put only 12GB of VRAM in there again ? We know that nvidia have 4080 with 24GB VRAM, but they only release 12 or 16 models. 4070 super would be such a good card for 8K gaming if it had 16 or more VRAM. Like RX 7900 XT costs the same and has 20GB
4080 has 16GB of VRAM
its limited by the 192 bit bus width, cant increase the Vram without bumping that up to 256
@@xXNikeSGameRXx They have model with 24, because if u play with Nvidia GeForce now ultimate, all games says 4080 24GB
Next Minecraft shaders 1080p, 1440p, 4k
rtx 3090 or 4070 super for me 3090
Disable DLSS, disable frame gen, disable Ray Tracing, disable path tracing, use a good Reshade preset and never look back.
Is this guy paid to not test anything but DLSS on Quality? At 1080 and 1440 he only does Quality. Balanced looks fine at 1440p but he always skips it, why?
Inbefore "He did you blind bat" like the last video where he only tested DLSS with FG and not without FG.
The 12 gigs is not enough. I mean this card is very capable from it's performance to play with RT and FG, but it's useless when your Vram is not enough and you must deal with stutters. That's sad…
For 2K, 12 Gig is enough, no need to invent.
If it copes with 2K in CP2077 PT, then it will support any game in the next 2-3 years.
@@Aleksey-vd9oc I'm not sure. Some games are using more than 12GB already. You can see it in the 4070 Ti Super Benchmark Video. In Cyberpunk for example, where it uses 14GB.
@@Th3_Dark_Side The memory used is not equal to the required one. The required amount is determined by tests (frame time)
And there are also settings.
They came up with a problem where there is none.
@@Aleksey-vd9oc Maybe, but what about the problems with 8GB cards? Aren't they true?
@@Th3_Dark_Side What problems? Have you looked at the tests?
The "problematic" 4060 ti with 8G defeats the "problem-free" 6700 with 12G
The helmets were invented by idiots who test 4060 in 2K and 4070 in 4K.
At the same time, the advantage of 4060 in rays, DLSS, FG is ignored
If it was 16gb 256bit was the best gpu ever made for the price overall it’s a solid upgrade for 1080p 240hz
It is overkill for 1080p, 1440p is the best resolution.
@@Ragssssss no if you need 240fps in almost every game
@@Sn4p_Fps why would you need 240hz experience strictly in every game? For competitive it's subjective, I personally find 144hz to be the perfect sweet spot. This just doesn't make any sense at all to have full 240fps for AAA games too. I mean, I'd argue even my 4090 cannot max full 240hz at 1440p.
@@Ragssssss i play only multiplayer fps games and make sense , I can easily get 240 in warzone , cs2 , the finals and many other
4K jak i 8K z DLSS to nie są natywne rozdzielczości tylko skalowane więc przestań mówić że grasz w 4K lub 8K kiedy masz włączone DLSS bo to jest perfidnie kłamstwo
10:39 🤣🤣
The image quality of this video is really bad for some reason