I am still waiting on TeeJay to finish up the Polk Lsim 703s xover upgrade. Talked to him 2 days ago he is having some really nice Xover cherry wood enclosure’s made up with glass on one side he said to show off your art work. TeeJay speaks very highly of you Danny. I talked to him for over an hour.
@@nathandaniels4823 thing is, he IS missing out. Even watching videos on YT about speakers hasn't spurred him to action. Someone has to say "You should try out some different speakers because you're missing out". Might not be nice be could be helpful and appreciated in the long run.
@@bearclaw5115 if speakers are for enjoyment, then he’s exactly where he needs to be. It’s pitiful that someone has to belittle that. It could’ve been said in a non-asshat way. For example: “If you like those Polks, there is so much out there that will REALLY blow your mind!” Says the same thing without stooping to insulting the other person.
Great video, that echos my feelings on the L100 - very neutral well designed speaker that could benefit from a clarity boost with some more expensive parts. They are selling at lower prices now and would be a good candidate for an upgrade.
I would like to see phase plots for the individual drivers and the complete speaker including in your videos. I've found that getting the drivers totally in phase with each other for a couple of octaves around the crossover point is probably the single most important factor. I know that a lack of coherent phase will show up in the off axis response but a specific graph would be nice.
I agree wholeheartedly, phase is super important for image depth and height. Many recordings use phase shift as a tool to create different sound, a speaker that isn’t coherent loses the ability to represent the recording properly.
That crossover has a lot of parts! Isn't it ideal to have a speaker of which the drivers roll off naturally into each other and would need only a simple first or second order crossover?
must new to speaker. i spent weeks comparing data / specs / graph / cone materials / shape before buying speaker only without box or crossover you must pick one
I never owned them, but yeah, the 12c was interesting. When they came out, I remember auditioning them and closely examining every last detail of the top mounted x-over/minimum baffle soft dome, ... at HiFi Buys Indianapolis.
Curious as to what other Polks you own if those ended up being top dog for you? Have read that the 12c's are really really nice! I own three pair. Monitor 7c's and 5jr's both early 80's. Love both of them. The 7c's are incredible though with the upgraded RDO194 tweeters. The other pair are actually two center channel C400's at my desk. Sounds amazing. Yes large, but i deal...hah.
Nice to hear Heko gets a H5 from you. They have been touted by a number of independent Audio folks who are fairly technical such as yourself. And the are reasonably priced.
Klipsch did figvure it out...but i credit Danny's upgrade videos for the recent improvements in klipsch. The Monitors version II are a leap in quality over v1.
The Klipsch nines and basically that whole series are very good. Maybe you want to give those a try, they did it all right with those in my opinion, and the forte as well. That's the honest truth. Not a fan of the KG line though, not so good.
I mentioned this before, but the lighting in the room needs work. I see you fine, but the speaker is very hard to see at most angles. Plus, the rest of the room is dark to black. Getting a professional studio engineer to set up the room lighting would help. Of course, the upgrade content is perfect, as always.
Lots of ways to title it, but because the rear "diffuser" is affixed to the cabinet it is part of the designer's tuning and functions effectively like a 360 slotted port. One thing it does effectively is it reduces variability caused by placement. You can place it flush against rear wall, 6" off, 2ft, 6ft, and your variances would be much lower than with a traditional rear port. Polk has had several speaker models using this rear "power port". Wharfedale is another builder that has successfully used what I would still consider a version of 360 slot porting in their down firing ports. Some of their down firing ports (mostly floor standers) include an affixed base piece opposing the down port and creating a specific spacing. Stand mount/ bookshelf/ center channel mounts have slightly taller feet which create a specific air gap off of its supporting surface, which effectively becomes the 360 slot port. Everything potentially has tradeoffs but regardless of what you call it, "power port, or "diffuser", or "360 slot port", but it certainly can be used effectively and can give favorable results in its intended use.
The caps in my circa 1980s Minimus 7 speakers were still good after all these years, but I replaced them with high-quality caps and WOW did that improve the high-end. The speakers sound completely different with very clean high frequencies.
They were most likely NOT good after 40 some years. Radio Shack used budget electrolytic caps, as most companies back then, and they ALL get bad over 20 years or so.
I'm hoping someone will send some vintage ESS speakers to Danny with the big dipole Heil tweeter sitting on top of the box radiating out both to the front and rear, I think he would enjoy spending some time with that AMT tweeter. If I lived closer I would bring mine over and hang with Danny if he had the time and do some experiments with that tweeter, I'm just in Alabama though so it wouldn't be that far. I've discovered that you can use 3" inch foam rubber pipe insulation and cut it to fit to mate on the 90 degree edges of the Heil to make a roundover and it smooths the response quite a bit, also I put a piece across the back of the box at the top where the rear wave of the Heil exits off to round over that 90 degree edge of the box. You can easily tell a difference by ear, it sounds much smoother and refined and the speakers seem to have more heft to the sound. With his measuring tools we could really see the improvements on a graph I'm sure. If I could find the optimum size roundover to use through measurements I would make something permanent with a 3D printer, how cool that would be.
@@dannyrichie9743 I believe at least partly it could be from the diffraction off the edges of the plastic housing of the tweeter, with the roundover it sounds so much smoother to the ear. I've been a drummer pretty much all my life and man the Heil reproduces ride and crash cymbals with about as much in the room realism as I've ever heard. Also I heard that speaker back in the 70s reproduce a soundstage like you wouldn't believe, I think the room I heard it in had a lot to do with it but man, it had such a deep soundstage, at times it seemed the sound was through the wall behind the speakers and outside somewhere in the yard. On the song Sweet Emotion when Steven Tyler starts singing Sweeeeeet at a low volume it seemed to start at about 10 feet from behind the speakers and as his voice got louder still singing sweeeeet until gradually it came up into the room and back to the speakers, I don't know if that's something that was in the mix and was revealed on that system or what but I've never heard any other speakers reproduce that. Cymbal crashes seem to last for 10 or 15 seconds and just float in the air, the soundstage had height to it, when a cymbal would crash you would look up above the speakers to where the cymbal was. Also that was one of only sound systems I've heard that you could sense the size and dimension of the room that the recording was made in, it was like the room dimensions we were in was transformed into the space the recording was made in, really creepy but astounding at the same time. It created such magic that I've never been able to get past, like I say I believe that the room was almost acoustically perfect or something. It was a friends system from high school back then.
@@dannyrichie9743 Wow, that's crazy, I hope I can experience it someday. I've been a audio nut since I heard the Heil way back in the 1970s, at the time I had no idea sound like that was possible, changed my life. I bet you could work your magic in the crossover and make the Heil so much better which is crazy to think about, love your videos and man I can tell that many people that comment here on your channel have never heard audio like we just talked about.
@@davidhester9897 I can flatten out the rough response but it takes a little bit of an aggressive network. For a large tweeter it really didn't paly down as low as I was thinking either.
I have a pair of original Polk SDA-2s that are still going. They are too big to ship but would love to know what upgrades you would recommend for those speakers.
Danny, how do you tell the difference between polypropylene caps and polyester caps, just by looking at them? (Is there an accurate way to determine that, or is it just a case of "best guess"? Because almost ALL (non electrolytic, entry level) caps nowadays are usually a yellow colored jacket)
Polyester marked mkt.polypropelene marked mkp.sometimes no mark.series can be looked up.i bought some caps surplus made by asc and use model number on cap to find info.size of cap is a good clue if you have some similar uf values and voltage rating on hand or consult mfg or vendor size spec.the polypropylene are usually quite a bit larger.same for large value air core inductors.i started putting network outside the box on small speaker.hope this helps, you have to check what some vendors send you.
From my standpoint, the vintage speakers can’t compete with what’s out today. Too many “audiophiles” ask for what’s impossible. And nobody knows what their individual ears are like.
I just have 1 question, what bookshelf speakers can I just buy and use without going through all of this extra hassle? I just want to watch movies and play some music. I’m NOT trying to spend a fortune for some speakers.
Will you do the Polk RTi-A7 towers? Those speakers were right in the sweet spot of Polk's main consumer line for 15 years... possibly the most popular living room speaker of the 2010s.
I have these exact speakers, but have yet to hook them up as i'm finishing the rec room. I'll look into this upgrade. Have you ever thought about doing a video where you actually take apart the speaker and put in a new crossover. This way we would know what it takes to do all the assembly work that's required.. Thanks Take Care
One thing I'd like to see is, in general, how speaker accuracy changes as you vary power input. What do measurements look like at 0.5W or 10W? Why is the convention to measure accuracy at 1W@1m?
Generally the response stays the same until the drivers are over driven. 1 watt/1 meter is a good industry standard for measuring output level. It creates a good measuring stick.
@@dannyrichie9743 Interesting! In the three models that I have upgraded the biggest difference to me hasn't necessarily been the tone, but just how smooth and natural they sound after. My thought has always been that it must be the no-rez. 🤷
Good day sir. I was wondering what your thoughts are on EMINENCE crossovers vs PRV AUDIO crossovers. I would love to have you design a crossover for my DIY speakers but companies have decent premade crossovers that have the points & slope that I'm looking for.
Crossovers have to be designed based on the acoustic output of the drivers in the box that they are used in. That crossover has to take into account the surface reflections, edge diffraction, driver spacing, voice coil offset, any driver break up issues, etc. A canned crossover based on a textbook slope rarely works well at all.
@@dannyrichie9743 I've been paying attention to your videos so I am thankfully aware of the general parameters that a crossover needs to meet to make a speaker truly sing [ THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR KNOWLEDGE SIR] Yet, I was hoping to buy a well designed premade crossover for $50 from EMINENCE and then upgrade resistors, capacitors & inductors for a total cost of $85 per speaker due to you occasionally saying some speakers you measure have crossovers that don't need to be redesigned, they just need better quality parts. I guess I have no choice but to go by your recommendation & send you one of my speakers to have you design the crossover. My pockets *HATE* my hobby.
Hey Danny, I've learned alot watching your stuff, but I'm still wondering why PVC coated wire is bad? I'm sure you've already explained it in the past, and I missed it somehow. Thanks for all you do
PVC has a higher dielectric constant than other coatings. So it tends to store energy more than other coatings causing a disruption in signal transfer. PVC is also known for allowing Copper to oxidize through it causing even further distortions of the signal.
I would like to bring my Tannoy Revolution XT8F to you at some point, in person. My idea is to take out the bass of the dual concentric 8" driver so that it's just doing lower & upper midrange & therefore would be a better wave guide for the tweeter. I noticed when at higher volume it's jumping pretty much the same as the bass woofer below it is, which means that it would be negatively effecting the tweeter's response a lot more than it should I've learned from Danny. Don't get me wrong. I can't hear it doing that at this point. Perhaps I could in a before & after. On another note, although the XT8F are fairly large towers, I run them with a Tannoy Definition dual opposed 12" sub that I set at 50hz low pass & high pass to the XT8F towers. I would essentially be converting the XT8F from a 2.5 way into a real 3 way with the idea I have if it is possible. Is it?
Hi, So if I decided to purchase this upgrade module, what tools will I need to get in order to install it on my speakers ? I'm not an electrician nor do I have any experience with installing these sort of stuff.. Would appreciate your input on this matter. Thanks a lot in advance!
But if the higher quality mparts reduce the ringing, how come it is not on the waterfall plots. ? If you see the problem on the waterfall, you should see the solution
Why does GR-Research not replace steel nuts? I mean, brass nuts do not cost the world and an easy upgrade! Copper or brass push plugs would also be a great option!
i wish danny would design a nice 3-way bookshelf speaker....there isnt many out there at an affordable price so aa diy kit from daanny with those nice upgrades would be epic!
@@dannyrichie9743 oh nice! if you designed it then it should be a beast! have you seen those super dentons? i bet there a mess just look at the speaker placement lol
Some parts discharge faster than others. How is that measured? I am just curious about that statement. I have never heard about capacitors, resistors, or inductors that pass a signal faster than a lesser cost value equal part.
Caps have a rating that basically is a measure of the charge and discharge rate and signal loss. Inductors with an iron core will hold a residual electric charge that effects the signal in a way that causes a smear. Resistors can cause a loss of quality in the signal transfer based on the materials used in them.
That crossover uses a huge amount of parts. It looks like an expensive upgrade. Would it have been possible to make the speaker sound as good using fewer parts?
L series is Polk's flagship line? I was considering getting a pair of L100 off Amazon to counter the Triangle Borea BR02, which I really like, but am slightly bored with since I've had them for several months. I can say that at times earlier on I heard my BR02 & was amazed by how natural they made everything sound. Now either they have changed or my hearing has changed because the BR02 sound a tad crunchy on the top end now. I might have damaged a tweeter listening to Start Trek at theater volume levels once where the Romulan ship was blasting a planet with it's energy drill. The sound is a huge rumble with a lot of high frequency static & pops. I had it playing very loud. Where was I? Oh so L100? They're less than the R200. Are the L100 a higher quality than the R200?
Looking very physically fit Danny! Let's just say I know a thing or two regarding physical conditioning since age 14 now 55!🤔🤫😉🤗😇 I assume you're just as smart with your training as you are with your speaker designs.😎😇
I think it’s the beefier magnets that cause the low ohms but not 💯 . 8 ohm tend to be big 12in woofer with a small magnet while these 6in woofer with this monster magnet seem to be ohm hungry. Or that’s completely wrong and we are now dumber for reading it.
@@joesshows6793I think it’s the winding of the voice coil that determines the DCR of a driver. Impedance also includes inductive - and to a smaller degree- capacitive reactance, the combination of which result in curves on raw drivers’ spec sheets. Take a look at graphs of planar magnet types.
@@OMGERRORWTF To clarify my earlier statement; “winding” to mean the total length and gauge of voice coil conductor as the determinate factor in its DCR . In most commonly used designs - moving coil types - there will be variations in the naked driver’s impedance that varies with frequency. Planar magnetic types, whether very wide band such as Magnaplanar, etc, or ribbon tweeters will have far less variation in impedance. Then put multiples of these types of drivers in an enclosure with frequency dividing networks comprised of passive components specifically selected for their frequency dependant reactance and the question of system impedance becomes rather more complex.
No person serious about audio should ever buy a speaker without understanding exactly what is inside. Why commenter's defend these 25.00 crossovers in everything up to and including Revel's $4000.00 bookshelves is a complete mystery. Anything less than a couple hundred budgeted for crossover in almost any of them is unethical. Yet $25.00 crossover's are in pretty much every speaker, from my own hands on experience. Opened up my (highly reviewed) EPOS Epic 2's to find those same $25.00 crossover's. Discounted them to half what I paid and sold them within a week. I will never make that mistake again, nor should anyone.
You seem to lack understanding. Most all companies use low cost crossovers for a good reason. It really makes next to no difference in the final sound we hear. Think about it, is every Speaker company WRONG, and they employ actual guys with engineering degrees most times,??? Sometimes the most obvious answer is the answer.
@@kevintomb Tell you what Kevin...I just sent my AR Classic 30's crossovers to Danny for a complete redesign. Found speaker clips on all drivers no soldier whatsoever. Cheap zip cord going to every driver. Giant cotton ball fill for damping. Completely magnetic binding posts. Two parts on the crossover's are good enough. The rest garbage. If you think they skimped on these obvious, would be substandard elements (in any speaker) for any other reason other than buyer's are unable to see where they cut costs, then you are definitely their target customer. The bottom end of these speaker's is amazing. Why I am trying to fix the rest. Guess why the bottom end is the highlight? That is the part of the signal path where 1 of the good crossover parts is located. The coil that crosses the four 10's at 200Hz. So much unethical cost cutting measures inside these. Speaker companies are very lucky they have you out here defending their unethical business practices. I'll report back the difference after the upgrades. No better teacher than first hand experience. We shall see whom lacks understanding soon enough. No pressure Danny.
The Polk woofer cone looks really ugly , like the Purify rubber edge/surround ... they should have made reversed , with dips instead of hills , also more randomly distributed but still with planned positioning in a symmetric manner .
Clickbaited from title. "Almost" Legendary to me, means not that much to fix but this is an entire crossover replacement. "Almost" Good would be accurate..... First dislike of all your videos.
There is not that much to fix, meaning a crossover redesign isn’t required, it just needs better quality parts. There is NO retail speaker at this price that is using top shelf parts. That’s the reality of selling a product at a price point.
@@roybatty- I have seen Zero evidence high priced caps etc make ANY difference let alone much difference in sound. I have talked to Actual Engineers of a few companies, and even they say it makes next to no difference.....so what is going on here.....LOL
You repeat several times that the crossover parts you are suggesting to be replaced cause what you call ”smearing” of the audio signal. You also say repeatedly this is already proven several times. I havent seen those measurements anywhere of this ”smearing” of the audio signal. I assume you refer to some sort of time smearing. Why not just show that with a relevant and repeatable messurement if the signal is actually effected in an audible way? This speaker might be a good example to use for A-B-X listening tests. I haven’t seen test like that. Why not for once do a listening test like that instead of just repeating the same claims over and over again? Audio industry is the only industry where you can get away with specific technical statements like this without the facts to back it up. Any other industry would consider this as misleading. I know you don’t see it that way but how come nobody feels the urge to simply back up their claims? It’s really unique.
We've backed that stuff up many times. We've done A/B comparisons with groups of people, etc. We have even taken factory speakers and replicated the exact crossover with better parts and left with installed both networks and made them switchable for quick A/B comparisons. Here was one of them: th-cam.com/video/cDl1hhT4ETU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QC2fW_wagYtEQSS7 Smearing doesn't show up on a measurement of amplitude. It has to do with storing and releasing of the signal. Inductors with a core are a good example. Capacitors are an even better example. They all can have some measurable smearing effect and most caps have a tested dissipation factor that measures energy loss. The audible effects are quite obvious.
@@dannyrichie9743 I listened to the clips through youtube (imagine it’s quite compressed and transgent smeared ) through dt-880 headphones on the i-phone head jack adapter DAC but I spontaneously thought A sounded better. Any clues? Should I try it through speakers? They do have air core inductors and high quality MKT capacitors. Linn DSM streamer. What would you recommend upgrading the tweeter series resistor to? I’m willing to try. I currently run a pair of 10W wirewound resistors. Seas DXT tweeters. Also how does one go about measuring any difference in the crossover components? I have alot of precision measurement gear where I work. I can setup a measurement if I would know what to measure.
@martinenstrom8206 I'm not an audio expert, but I've dabbled in it, along with digital circuits, and I'm also a software developer. I'm curious about the technical side, about how things work. I've pondered on the "smearing" thing for a while. To me, smearing would be the removal of clarity. I've listened to good speakers with flat responses. Some sound better than others, especially in the detail. Why would that be? What would a signal look like after it was smeared? I've watched square waves in an oscilloscope. Some have their corners knocked off. Others have spikes or other deformations. So take a very complex signal loaded with musical detail. How would it look after being smeared.... a bit like those beaten up square waves, for instance? I'm speculating, of course.
I am still waiting on TeeJay to finish up the Polk Lsim 703s xover upgrade. Talked to him 2 days ago he is having some really nice Xover cherry wood enclosure’s made up with glass on one side he said to show off your art work. TeeJay speaks very highly of you Danny. I talked to him for over an hour.
I am looking forward to him getting those up and playing too.
Did he make a video yet??
I still enjoy the 1980s Polk Monitor 10s.
You don't know what you're missing if you think the 10 sounds good.
Just can’t resist insulting someone, can you?
@@nathandaniels4823 thing is, he IS missing out. Even watching videos on YT about speakers hasn't spurred him to action. Someone has to say "You should try out some different speakers because you're missing out". Might not be nice be could be helpful and appreciated in the long run.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt
Are you saying that the 10 is really a 5.
@@bearclaw5115 if speakers are for enjoyment, then he’s exactly where he needs to be. It’s pitiful that someone has to belittle that.
It could’ve been said in a non-asshat way. For example: “If you like those Polks, there is so much out there that will REALLY blow your mind!”
Says the same thing without stooping to insulting the other person.
Would love to see Danny do any of the new ps audio speakers
Great video, that echos my feelings on the L100 - very neutral well designed speaker that could benefit from a clarity boost with some more expensive parts. They are selling at lower prices now and would be a good candidate for an upgrade.
I would buy an upgrade kit in a heartbeat. I replaced some XO parts on a previous Polk speaker to good results.
I would like to see phase plots for the individual drivers and the complete speaker including in your videos. I've found that getting the drivers totally in phase with each other for a couple of octaves around the crossover point is probably the single most important factor. I know that a lack of coherent phase will show up in the off axis response but a specific graph would be nice.
I agree wholeheartedly, phase is super important for image depth and height. Many recordings use phase shift as a tool to create different sound, a speaker that isn’t coherent loses the ability to represent the recording properly.
That crossover has a lot of parts! Isn't it ideal to have a speaker of which the drivers roll off naturally into each other and would need only a simple first or second order crossover?
It is more ideal. That is why we spend so much time with the engineering and design of our drivers.
must new to speaker. i spent weeks comparing data / specs / graph / cone materials / shape before buying speaker only without box or crossover
you must pick one
I mean..the t15 have like 2 parts 😅
I own 5 pairs of Polks..My favorite is RTA 12 c's ..had them since 86 😅😂
I never owned them, but yeah, the 12c was interesting.
When they came out, I remember auditioning them and closely examining every last detail of the top mounted x-over/minimum baffle soft dome, ... at HiFi Buys Indianapolis.
Curious as to what other Polks you own if those ended up being top dog for you? Have read that the 12c's are really really nice! I own three pair. Monitor 7c's and 5jr's both early 80's. Love both of them. The 7c's are incredible though with the upgraded RDO194 tweeters. The other pair are actually two center channel C400's at my desk. Sounds amazing. Yes large, but i deal...hah.
Nice to hear Heko gets a H5 from you. They have been touted by a number of independent Audio folks who are fairly technical such as yourself. And the are reasonably priced.
Yes, well designed, just built to a price point.
Good to see that Polk is starting to figure out accuracy. Maybe, one day Klipsch will figure it out. The folks at Polk must be watching your vids.
Unlikely watching Danny’s videos. Polk has always done their own thing and succeeded.
Klipsch did figvure it out...but i credit Danny's upgrade videos for the recent improvements in klipsch. The Monitors version II are a leap in quality over v1.
Or they've been doing it for years...?
The Klipsch nines and basically that whole series are very good. Maybe you want to give those a try, they did it all right with those in my opinion, and the forte as well. That's the honest truth. Not a fan of the KG line though, not so good.
🤣Seems you have zero history of Polk Audio. They have been making great measuring and sounding speakers for the last couple decades.
I mentioned this before, but the lighting in the room needs work. I see you fine, but the speaker is very hard to see at most angles. Plus, the rest of the room is dark to black. Getting a professional studio engineer to set up the room lighting would help. Of course, the upgrade content is perfect, as always.
My L100 are very good would love to buy updated crossovers.
The back of wall port could be called a Diffuser? Similar to the ones used in race cars
Lots of ways to title it, but because the rear "diffuser" is affixed to the cabinet it is part of the designer's tuning and functions effectively like a 360 slotted port. One thing it does effectively is it reduces variability caused by placement. You can place it flush against rear wall, 6" off, 2ft, 6ft, and your variances would be much lower than with a traditional rear port. Polk has had several speaker models using this rear "power port". Wharfedale is another builder that has successfully used what I would still consider a version of 360 slot porting in their down firing ports. Some of their down firing ports (mostly floor standers) include an affixed base piece opposing the down port and creating a specific spacing. Stand mount/ bookshelf/ center channel mounts have slightly taller feet which create a specific air gap off of its supporting surface, which effectively becomes the 360 slot port.
Everything potentially has tradeoffs but regardless of what you call it, "power port, or "diffuser", or "360 slot port", but it certainly can be used effectively and can give favorable results in its intended use.
The caps in my circa 1980s Minimus 7 speakers were still good after all these years, but I replaced them with high-quality caps and WOW did that improve the high-end. The speakers sound completely different with very clean high frequencies.
They were most likely NOT good after 40 some years. Radio Shack used budget electrolytic caps, as most companies back then, and they ALL get bad over 20 years or so.
I cant wait for you to get your hands on the New !Mc Intosh 12''/4 way speaker !
Send one in.
I'm hoping someone will send some vintage ESS speakers to Danny with the big dipole Heil tweeter sitting on top of the box radiating out both to the front and rear, I think he would enjoy spending some time with that AMT tweeter. If I lived closer I would bring mine over and hang with Danny if he had the time and do some experiments with that tweeter, I'm just in Alabama though so it wouldn't be that far. I've discovered that you can use 3" inch foam rubber pipe insulation and cut it to fit to mate on the 90 degree edges of the Heil to make a roundover and it smooths the response quite a bit, also I put a piece across the back of the box at the top where the rear wave of the Heil exits off to round over that 90 degree edge of the box. You can easily tell a difference by ear, it sounds much smoother and refined and the speakers seem to have more heft to the sound. With his measuring tools we could really see the improvements on a graph I'm sure. If I could find the optimum size roundover to use through measurements I would make something permanent with a 3D printer, how cool that would be.
I have one of those tweeters in stock. It measures really rough.
@@dannyrichie9743 I believe at least partly it could be from the diffraction off the edges of the plastic housing of the tweeter, with the roundover it sounds so much smoother to the ear. I've been a drummer pretty much all my life and man the Heil reproduces ride and crash cymbals with about as much in the room realism as I've ever heard. Also I heard that speaker back in the 70s reproduce a soundstage like you wouldn't believe, I think the room I heard it in had a lot to do with it but man, it had such a deep soundstage, at times it seemed the sound was through the wall behind the speakers and outside somewhere in the yard. On the song Sweet Emotion when Steven Tyler starts singing Sweeeeeet at a low volume it seemed to start at about 10 feet from behind the speakers and as his voice got louder still singing sweeeeet until gradually it came up into the room and back to the speakers, I don't know if that's something that was in the mix and was revealed on that system or what but I've never heard any other speakers reproduce that. Cymbal crashes seem to last for 10 or 15 seconds and just float in the air, the soundstage had height to it, when a cymbal would crash you would look up above the speakers to where the cymbal was. Also that was one of only sound systems I've heard that you could sense the size and dimension of the room that the recording was made in, it was like the room dimensions we were in was transformed into the space the recording was made in, really creepy but astounding at the same time. It created such magic that I've never been able to get past, like I say I believe that the room was almost acoustically perfect or something. It was a friends system from high school back then.
@@davidhester9897 Our Neo 3 planar tweeter is even better.
@@dannyrichie9743 Wow, that's crazy, I hope I can experience it someday. I've been a audio nut since I heard the Heil way back in the 1970s, at the time I had no idea sound like that was possible, changed my life. I bet you could work your magic in the crossover and make the Heil so much better which is crazy to think about, love your videos and man I can tell that many people that comment here on your channel have never heard audio like we just talked about.
@@davidhester9897 I can flatten out the rough response but it takes a little bit of an aggressive network. For a large tweeter it really didn't paly down as low as I was thinking either.
great video, I hope if you can do some subwoofer, seled or with passive radiator will be amazing to get some information about that. thanks to share .
We already offer the best sounding sealed subwoofer in the industry.
I have a pair of original Polk SDA-2s that are still going. They are too big to ship but would love to know what upgrades you would recommend for those speakers.
Danny, how do you tell the difference between polypropylene caps and polyester caps, just by looking at them? (Is there an accurate way to determine that, or is it just a case of "best guess"? Because almost ALL (non electrolytic, entry level) caps nowadays are usually a yellow colored jacket)
Polyester marked mkt.polypropelene marked mkp.sometimes no mark.series can be looked up.i bought some caps surplus made by asc and use model number on cap to find info.size of cap is a good clue if you have some similar uf values and voltage rating on hand or consult mfg or vendor size spec.the polypropylene are usually quite a bit larger.same for large value air core inductors.i started putting network outside the box on small speaker.hope this helps, you have to check what some vendors send you.
They are marked MET or MPT.
Thanks for the update.my memory of cap marking definitely needs some help.
@@dannyrichie9743I've seen that, but which ones are which?
@@JoeJ-8282 MET is metallized polyester film. MPT is metallized polypropylene film.
From my standpoint, the vintage speakers can’t compete with what’s out today. Too many “audiophiles” ask for what’s impossible. And nobody knows what their individual ears are like.
I just have 1 question, what bookshelf speakers can I just buy and use without going through all of this extra hassle? I just want to watch movies and play some music. I’m NOT trying to spend a fortune for some speakers.
Realistic Minimus 7
Our most popular speaker: gr-research.com/product/xls-encore/
Will you do the Polk RTi-A7 towers? Those speakers were right in the sweet spot of Polk's main consumer line for 15 years... possibly the most popular living room speaker of the 2010s.
These Polk models with the lumpy cones are quite heavy I am told and possibly not able to stop on a dime when the signal stops?
I have these exact speakers, but have yet to hook them up as i'm finishing the rec room. I'll look into this upgrade. Have you ever thought about doing a video where you actually take apart the speaker and put in a new crossover. This way we would know what it takes to do all the assembly work that's required.. Thanks Take Care
We've done that and shot videos on the Klipsch RP-600M, The X-LS Encore, the X-Bravo, and the Desktop Mini. Looks for those videos.
Ok, Thanks Danny I'll definitely look into that. Take Care
One thing I'd like to see is, in general, how speaker accuracy changes as you vary power input. What do measurements look like at 0.5W or 10W? Why is the convention to measure accuracy at 1W@1m?
Generally the response stays the same until the drivers are over driven. 1 watt/1 meter is a good industry standard for measuring output level. It creates a good measuring stick.
That's a pretty wide 5dB trough you showed with the grille on.
Most speakers aren’t meant to be played with grills on; it’s an atheistic addition.
Based on that spectral decay I'll bet the no-rez makes the biggest difference 👍
The cabinet resonance that the No Rez kills is not what shows up on the spectral decay. The spectral decay is just driver energy.
@@dannyrichie9743 Interesting!
In the three models that I have upgraded the biggest difference to me hasn't necessarily been the tone, but just how smooth and natural they sound after. My thought has always been that it must be the no-rez. 🤷
@@krjohnson29 The No Rez will take away that cabinet noise so that you just hear the music.
Good day sir. I was wondering what your thoughts are on EMINENCE crossovers vs PRV AUDIO crossovers. I would love to have you design a crossover for my DIY speakers but companies have decent premade crossovers that have the points & slope that I'm looking for.
Crossovers have to be designed based on the acoustic output of the drivers in the box that they are used in. That crossover has to take into account the surface reflections, edge diffraction, driver spacing, voice coil offset, any driver break up issues, etc. A canned crossover based on a textbook slope rarely works well at all.
@@dannyrichie9743 I've been paying attention to your videos so I am thankfully aware of the general parameters that a crossover needs to meet to make a speaker truly sing [ THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR KNOWLEDGE SIR] Yet, I was hoping to buy a well designed premade crossover for $50 from EMINENCE and then upgrade resistors, capacitors & inductors for a total cost of $85 per speaker due to you occasionally saying some speakers you measure have crossovers that don't need to be redesigned, they just need better quality parts. I guess I have no choice but to go by your recommendation & send you one of my speakers to have you design the crossover. My pockets *HATE* my hobby.
Hey Danny, I've learned alot watching your stuff, but I'm still wondering why PVC coated wire is bad? I'm sure you've already explained it in the past, and I missed it somehow. Thanks for all you do
PVC has a higher dielectric constant than other coatings. So it tends to store energy more than other coatings causing a disruption in signal transfer. PVC is also known for allowing Copper to oxidize through it causing even further distortions of the signal.
From where I come from....Steel nuts is usually a compliment! ;-)
I've heard that brass is worthy of boasting.
@@davidjudd951 that"s the next step up ;-)
I would like to bring my Tannoy Revolution XT8F to you at some point, in person. My idea is to take out the bass of the dual concentric 8" driver so that it's just doing lower & upper midrange & therefore would be a better wave guide for the tweeter. I noticed when at higher volume it's jumping pretty much the same as the bass woofer below it is, which means that it would be negatively effecting the tweeter's response a lot more than it should I've learned from Danny. Don't get me wrong. I can't hear it doing that at this point. Perhaps I could in a before & after. On another note, although the XT8F are fairly large towers, I run them with a Tannoy Definition dual opposed 12" sub that I set at 50hz low pass & high pass to the XT8F towers. I would essentially be converting the XT8F from a 2.5 way into a real 3 way with the idea I have if it is possible. Is it?
Hi, So if I decided to purchase this upgrade module, what tools will I need to get in order to install it on my speakers ? I'm not an electrician nor do I have any experience with installing these sort of stuff..
Would appreciate your input on this matter. Thanks a lot in advance!
Hi Danny, when will you provide distortion comparison measurements under high power?
But if the higher quality mparts reduce the ringing, how come it is not on the waterfall plots. ? If you see the problem on the waterfall, you should see the solution
Do you pay return shipping on speakers sent in for evaluation, if the upgrade is done?
No, the customer has to pay for shipping.
I wish someone would send in the new morel avyra 633 to see what could be done with them.
Why does GR-Research not replace steel nuts? I mean, brass nuts do not cost the world and an easy upgrade! Copper or brass push plugs would also be a great option!
We do. We replace all of it, the crappy binding posts and all. The tube connectors we use are a huge step up across the board.
i wish danny would design a nice 3-way bookshelf speaker....there isnt many out there at an affordable price so aa diy kit from daanny with those nice upgrades would be epic!
I am actually designing one of those right now, but it is for another company and won't be a GR Research product or a kit.
@@dannyrichie9743 oh nice! if you designed it then it should be a beast! have you seen those super dentons? i bet there a mess just look at the speaker placement lol
I wonder if that tweeter crossover point could have been pulled down? Try to get some flatter response in that ~1-2khz range off axis.
Maybe....
One day I’d like to get an upgrade for my L800. I fear it maybe $$$$.
Yeah I bet. I looked inside my smaller & lesser R700 and there was a lot of parts on those crossovers
Some parts discharge faster than others. How is that measured? I am just curious about that statement. I have never heard about capacitors, resistors, or inductors that pass a signal faster than a lesser cost value equal part.
Caps have a rating that basically is a measure of the charge and discharge rate and signal loss. Inductors with an iron core will hold a residual electric charge that effects the signal in a way that causes a smear. Resistors can cause a loss of quality in the signal transfer based on the materials used in them.
@@dannyrichie9743
I understand your reasoning. Thank you for your response.
That crossover uses a huge amount of parts. It looks like an expensive upgrade. Would it have been possible to make the speaker sound as good using fewer parts?
Maybe.
L series is Polk's flagship line? I was considering getting a pair of L100 off Amazon to counter the Triangle Borea BR02, which I really like, but am slightly bored with since I've had them for several months. I can say that at times earlier on I heard my BR02 & was amazed by how natural they made everything sound. Now either they have changed or my hearing has changed because the BR02 sound a tad crunchy on the top end now. I might have damaged a tweeter listening to Start Trek at theater volume levels once where the Romulan ship was blasting a planet with it's energy drill. The sound is a huge rumble with a lot of high frequency static & pops. I had it playing very loud. Where was I? Oh so L100? They're less than the R200. Are the L100 a higher quality than the R200?
The quality of the internal crossovers are the same.
Did you have to change any of the inductor values, to compensate for differences in DCR?
No.
The drop out around 8K i would think would make it lose some air and openness. For the Price..
What is with the lighting? Is it to create a mood? This is the third review in a row where you couldn't see the speaker.
There is a huge light right on the speaker. It is just so dark that it blends in with the background.
@@dannyrichie9743 Um...O.K.?
@@TheTomryan123 Out new room will be lighter and much better.
i just picked up some rectilinear lowboy speakers without crossovers.. would anyone know where i might find a schematic for those?
Looking very physically fit Danny! Let's just say I know a thing or two regarding physical conditioning since age 14 now 55!🤔🤫😉🤗😇 I assume you're just as smart with your training as you are with your speaker designs.😎😇
Thanks, I am still running in track meets. In outdoor I run the 50 meter and 100 meter races and in indoor I run the 60 meter.
@@dannyrichie9743 😬😎
Excellent
Why are so many speakers either 4 ohms or low sensitivity, is it because of higher power amp availibilty? Could be a good tech talk?
I think it’s the beefier magnets that cause the low ohms but not 💯 . 8 ohm tend to be big 12in woofer with a small magnet while these 6in woofer with this monster magnet seem to be ohm hungry.
Or that’s completely wrong and we are now dumber for reading it.
@@joesshows6793 I don't really know, but what you said sounded good ;}>
@@joesshows6793I think it’s the winding of the voice coil that determines the DCR of a driver. Impedance also includes inductive - and to a smaller degree- capacitive reactance, the combination of which result in curves on raw drivers’ spec sheets. Take a look at graphs of planar magnet types.
The magnet only affects the voice coil when it's moving
@@OMGERRORWTF To clarify my earlier statement; “winding” to mean the total length and gauge of voice coil conductor as the determinate factor in its DCR . In most commonly used designs - moving coil types - there will be variations in the naked driver’s impedance that varies with frequency. Planar magnetic types, whether very wide band such as Magnaplanar, etc, or ribbon tweeters will have far less variation in impedance. Then put multiples of these types of drivers in an enclosure with frequency dividing networks comprised of passive components specifically selected for their frequency dependant reactance and the question of system impedance becomes rather more complex.
Is it ever beneficial to put no-rez on the stamped driver basket?
Yes, if you peal off the foam.
why so many parts on a 2 way speaker? are they adding a couple of notch filters to the woofer?
They might be.
Yes, "to disperse" as a verb exists, so "dispersing" is correct 👍
But with the "S" sound, not the "Z" sound.
Thank you for dispersing that wisdom.
@@davidjudd951 Oh, you're welcome. And thank you.
Danny I need speakers for small place to play very loud without having disordion.... can you create a plan for that situation 😔🤐🤫💔
Check out the Bully. gr-research.com/228749-2/
Do you design crossover and send to customer. I have Polk R200.
You can already order that one online. gr-research.com/product/polk-r200-upgrade-kit/
Ok, thanks
Nice
You need better lighting. Hard to see anything dark.
We have a huge light right on everything. There is just too much dark stuff in the room.
No person serious about audio should ever buy a speaker without understanding exactly what is inside. Why commenter's defend these 25.00 crossovers in everything up to and including Revel's $4000.00 bookshelves is a complete mystery. Anything less than a couple hundred budgeted for crossover in almost any of them is unethical. Yet $25.00 crossover's are in pretty much every speaker, from my own hands on experience. Opened up my (highly reviewed) EPOS Epic 2's to find those same $25.00 crossover's. Discounted them to half what I paid and sold them within a week. I will never make that mistake again, nor should anyone.
You seem to lack understanding. Most all companies use low cost crossovers for a good reason. It really makes next to no difference in the final sound we hear. Think about it, is every Speaker company WRONG, and they employ actual guys with engineering degrees most times,??? Sometimes the most obvious answer is the answer.
@@kevintomb Tell you what Kevin...I just sent my AR Classic 30's crossovers to Danny for a complete redesign. Found speaker clips on all drivers no soldier whatsoever. Cheap zip cord going to every driver. Giant cotton ball fill for damping. Completely magnetic binding posts. Two parts on the crossover's are good enough. The rest garbage. If you think they skimped on these obvious, would be substandard elements (in any speaker) for any other reason other than buyer's are unable to see where they cut costs, then you are definitely their target customer.
The bottom end of these speaker's is amazing. Why I am trying to fix the rest. Guess why the bottom end is the highlight? That is the part of the signal path where 1 of the good crossover parts is located. The coil that crosses the four 10's at 200Hz. So much unethical cost cutting measures inside these. Speaker companies are very lucky they have you out here defending their unethical business practices. I'll report back the difference after the upgrades. No better teacher than first hand experience. We shall see whom lacks understanding soon enough. No pressure Danny.
The Polk woofer cone looks really ugly , like the Purify rubber edge/surround ... they should have made reversed , with dips instead of hills , also more randomly distributed but still with planned positioning in a symmetric manner .
Please someone; send Danny a pair of Jamo Concert 11/D870's.
I really don't dig the wonky looking stuff manufacturers do to their mid bass drivers.
deja vu... said the same thing with the Polks 2 months ago :p
IIRC, Polk claims it prevents distortion of the speaker cone.
Clickbaited from title. "Almost" Legendary to me, means not that much to fix but this is an entire crossover replacement. "Almost" Good would be accurate..... First dislike of all your videos.
There is not that much to fix, meaning a crossover redesign isn’t required, it just needs better quality parts. There is NO retail speaker at this price that is using top shelf parts. That’s the reality of selling a product at a price point.
@@jonathandavis9507 "Needs"?? Now ask Polk if it needs these parts, versus a guy Selling you these parts~!
@@roybatty- I have seen Zero evidence high priced caps etc make ANY difference let alone much difference in sound. I have talked to Actual Engineers of a few companies, and even they say it makes next to no difference.....so what is going on here.....LOL
You repeat several times that the crossover parts you are suggesting to be replaced cause what you call ”smearing” of the audio signal. You also say repeatedly this is already proven several times. I havent seen those measurements anywhere of this ”smearing” of the audio signal. I assume you refer to some sort of time smearing. Why not just show that with a relevant and repeatable messurement if the signal is actually effected in an audible way? This speaker might be a good example to use for A-B-X listening tests. I haven’t seen test like that. Why not for once do a listening test like that instead of just repeating the same claims over and over again?
Audio industry is the only industry where you can get away with specific technical statements like this without the facts to back it up. Any other industry would consider this as misleading. I know you don’t see it that way but how come nobody feels the urge to simply back up their claims? It’s really unique.
We've backed that stuff up many times. We've done A/B comparisons with groups of people, etc. We have even taken factory speakers and replicated the exact crossover with better parts and left with installed both networks and made them switchable for quick A/B comparisons. Here was one of them: th-cam.com/video/cDl1hhT4ETU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QC2fW_wagYtEQSS7
Smearing doesn't show up on a measurement of amplitude. It has to do with storing and releasing of the signal. Inductors with a core are a good example. Capacitors are an even better example. They all can have some measurable smearing effect and most caps have a tested dissipation factor that measures energy loss. The audible effects are quite obvious.
@@dannyrichie9743 I listened to the clips through youtube (imagine it’s quite compressed and transgent smeared ) through dt-880 headphones on the i-phone head jack adapter DAC but I spontaneously thought A sounded better. Any clues? Should I try it through speakers? They do have air core inductors and high quality MKT capacitors. Linn DSM streamer. What would you recommend upgrading the tweeter series resistor to? I’m willing to try. I currently run a pair of 10W wirewound resistors. Seas DXT tweeters.
Also how does one go about measuring any difference in the crossover components? I have alot of precision measurement gear where I work. I can setup a measurement if I would know what to measure.
@martinenstrom8206 I'm not an audio expert, but I've dabbled in it, along with digital circuits, and I'm also a software developer. I'm curious about the technical side, about how things work. I've pondered on the "smearing" thing for a while. To me, smearing would be the removal of clarity. I've listened to good speakers with flat responses. Some sound better than others, especially in the detail. Why would that be? What would a signal look like after it was smeared? I've watched square waves in an oscilloscope. Some have their corners knocked off. Others have spikes or other deformations. So take a very complex signal loaded with musical detail. How would it look after being smeared.... a bit like those beaten up square waves, for instance? I'm speculating, of course.