Great corsets, AWFUL writing : A period drama corset tier list WITHOUT historical accuracy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Let's rank some corset scenes in historical shows and movies in a tier list-- but without being the historical accuracy police! It's the writing of corset scenes where the fashion history myths need to be debunked. Thank you to Ritual for Sponsoring this video. Get 20% OFF your first month Go to ritual.com/Sna...
As a fashion historian, it's tempting to only consider the historical accuracy of how period drama corsets are MADE when looking at a corset lacing movie scene. But it doesn't really matter whether something is a reproduction Victorian corset or not, the problem with these scenes is to do with the corset myths the writing relies on. I ranked some favorites like A Discovery of Witches and Gentleman Jack, some old not-so-favorites like Titanic and Brave, and some new-to-me shows like The Alienist and The Essex Serpent. What I noticed was the same as in my last video about corset tight lacing scenes in period pieces : the corset itself is not the problem.
When period dramas rely on wearing a corset to do the work of character development or moving the plot along, I just see lazy writing! Relying on old corset myths that should be debunked isn't good for the story, but it's frustratingly common. Disney films like Brave use these tropes in garments that weren't corsetry! Pirates of the Carribean uses beautifully made 18th century stays which have been tight laced under improbably circumstances to get the characters where they need to go. The Nevers, which had very well-designed victorian corsetry, still insisted on doing the impossible and ignoring victorian dress history to make a character do a fight scene in her underwear. And shows like The Alienist and The Essex Serpent have wonderfully made historically accurate corsets, one of which is a reproduction of an extant Victorian corset, but the writers still use them in terrible corset torture scenes.
However, it is absolutely possible to give a corset a role in the story without resorting to tired old tropes. The Outlander wedding night scene does it reasonably well by making a corset a focus for character interaction : instead of relying on corset myths, it uses a very cute trope from Victorian literature! I loved seeing Anne Lister's corset lacing scene in the Gentleman Jack opening titles, because of how tough and assertive her mannerisms are. The 2017 Little Women miniseries also had a great scene where Meg March laces tighter than usual to wear a borrowed ball gown, but does a great job of showing that it's uncomfortable the way a modern evening gown might be to us. And the recent movie Corsage even manages to show a corset tightlacing scene that serves as good exposition, showing us the main character's mental state in a faster and more effective way than much else could.
It's not impossible to write a good corset scene in a historical show or movie, but it has to be done without using debunked myths or lazy, sexist tropes. Unlike a certain Metro article would have us think . . . the corsets are NOT the problem.
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For Brave, Merida's outfit I always thought it was the dress👗 that was too tight not the corset.
Cause she could move more freely when the dress's seams were torn.
מתי הסירטון הבא שלך? (:
I find the "indents on the body to indicate painful clothing" thing to be confusing. Sure, my corset leaves some weird marks on my skin, even when I wear a chemise. So does a bra. So do my stretchy jeans, and the comfy waistband from my sweatpants. How many of us wake up with funky pillowcase marks on our faces? It doesn't mean that any of these things were painful, that's just the result of skin+fabric.
Pillow face....
Precisely! Heck, I get mask marks on my face and I've put a lot of effort into finding well-fitted and comfortable masks.
@@SnappyDragon have you tried the nite hood? It's not a traditional mask, and it's super soft and stretchy
@@kikidevine694 I have ones I like, but thank you!
It's really the peeling it off of her part that's ridiculous. If it was laced up super tight the corset would be coming off all by itself as it was being loosened. So, unless the corset had been glued onto her, showing that it was stuck to her skin after it was unlaced--if that could even happen--would actually be a sign that it wasn't laced up too tightly.
For my interpretation of Titanic, the storytelling the corset uses is less about the fact that Rose is wearing one and more about how it's being laced. When the maid is lacing Rose up, Rose is comfortable, the maid is pulling the laces in a matter of fact way, not using excessive force, it's just someone getting dressed. When Rose's mother laces her up, she is being forceful and not caring about how Rose is feeling about it. The force she's exerting on the lacing is the force she is also exerting on Rose as a person.
I was going to say the same thing but add on that the corset itself being an older model also makes sense for the narrative context. The Dewitt-Bukaters are BROKE! So her mother probably used the last of their money on actual fashionable clothes but everday items like corsets and other undergarments? Probably either secondhand bought or hand-me-downs from Margret's (I think that's Rose's mother's name) own debutante "season".That's why Rose had to marry Cal and in the context of the scene in question it's almost like using an older corset is also driving home her mother's point as she's roughly lacing Rose in. "Do you really want to wear hand-me downs and see me working as a seamstress Rose or live in comfort with a man that can afford new clothes and the lifestyle we (though really I) are used to?" was probably her thought process and why she was so rough.
I actually thought that her mother's thoughts were not on the task at hand (lacing the corset). She was distressed, upset, worried etc... And it showed in the way she yanked on the corset strings. 🤷
I agree, the corset and interaction between Rose and Ruth really highlights the conflict that Rose and Ruth have and I almost feel that as the laces are tightened Rose is getting that trapped feeling and really works great when she is later trying to tear off her outfit and can’t. Lastly I don’t think that a more modern corset would have given Rose the silhouette they were after in the film. Overall I think the writing is very good and the clothes advance the storyline nicely even if the corset itself isn’t quite historically accurate. It’s close enough and I’d put it in the category of “Plausible”
And there was a deleted scene where after dinner Rose goes to her room and starts crying out of anger over how little control she has over her own life
She attempts to take off her clothes but she can't because she's always had it done for her so she trashes the room out of frustration, and the next scene is when she's on the other side of the railing about to jump because she has no hope left.
@@EJaramillo I remember when the harsh portrayal of Ruth was criticized online! I was one of the voices pointing out that this is Rose's *story* we see being portrayed -- & so the unflattering portrayal makes sense, because Rose has bitter memories about her overbearing mother.
This compliments your point, I think. The use of the corset -- how wearing it is being portrayed -- is more of a reflection of Rose's rejection of the stodgy life her mother wanted her to live. It's how she remembers the experience: painted with all those regrets & conflicting emotions. It's not meant to be accurate.
The thing with pirates of the Caribbean that immediately jumped to my mind when I last watched it is that they instead could have made the dress to hot instead. Standing around in the Jamaican heat in something that is made for a drafty London ballroom combined with the stress of getting proposed to could probably be enough to make one faint.
I know! So many things that could have resulted in that plot point at least as effectively as the corset.
with the speed she is fanninf her fan, id imagine shes hot as well.
I used to do Rev War reenacting, and I actually related to that Pirates scene a bit. Setting aside the played-for-laughs bit about London fashion, I’ve worn a day gown at events during humid Philly summers, and there was this time I had my stays laced just a bit too tight. Around early afternoon, I was overheating, started having difficulty breathing, and did actually black out briefly. My mother had to help me into the restrooms, loosened my stays by about half an inch or so, and helped me cool off. After a half hour, I was okay to get re-dressed and head back outside. My point, I guess, is that it may still have been lazy writing, but personal experience tells me that it’s not totally implausible.
The other thing to keep in mind is that none of these women (who are dressing her character) have ever worn or seen how to wear this corset. Her father literally says "I'm told it's the latest fashion in London." So the possibility of them accidentally lacing it too tightly because they were unfamiliar with the construction is also pretty high.
@@bridgetdroske1681 This is true as well, and it doesn’t necessarily take much to go from “just right” to “too tight”. As in my case, as little as half an inch can make a huge difference, especially when other factors like the heat are at play.
as a swede I always find the word "bra" hilarious, since it is the swedish word for "good". so entertainingly I read the top tier as "it's a good (one)"...
Glad to know I am accidentally punny in other languages than the one I speak 🤣💚
Fun fact about Empress Elizabeth and her tight-lacing. The empress died after being stabbed by an anarchist assasin. Because her corset was laced so tight, there was seemingly little blood. It provided direct presure on the wound. She died very suddenly when she returned to her hotel and her corset was undone. Then the pressure was off and rapid blood loss.
At least that is the story.
Interesting!
Maybe, a corset should not be undone quickly after such an incident.
@@jensphiliphohmann1876 And they probably should have had a doctor on hand as a precaution.
@@histrogeek
Anyway.
@@jensphiliphohmann1876 They didn't know she had been stabbed at this point. Elizabeth was confused about "what the man wanted" when he knocked her over, but neither she nor her companion were aware of the file Lucheni had used to stab the Empress. Her dress of that day has been preserved in detail & the damage is surprisingly minimal. So when they took her corset off, it was to help her breathe, as they thought she had some sort of fainting spell.
In defence of Brave I'd say that I was under impression that dress didn't belong to Merida but her mother - who has much narrower shoulders. I have kind of same experience when I was wearing my mum's dresses (sewn for her), as we are similar height. I have broad shoulders, she has narrow ones. She could freely move in the dress, I couldn't rise my arms without ripping it :)
Yea it's either the Queen's dress or one the Queen had made for Merida without her input. It makes perfect sense, given the relationship between the two, that the Queen has no idea how large/muscular Merida actually is.
yeah. its only the dress that rips not the undergraments and lets be hornest...how likely is it that merida would accualy show up or stay still long enogh for dressfiting??
My Dad and I had a similar thought. He was in the SCA, and knows how long it can actually take to make things like dresses using traditional means of the time, i.e. hand-stitching the entire dress. His theory was that Merida was fitted for the dress some time ago, and the measurements are off now because she's 16 so her body is not done growing yet and her active lifestyle has caused her to gain muscle. Seriously, physical maturation for humans doesn't end until we're around 25. To me and him, it showed how out-of-touch Elanor is about her daughter that she didn't take growth into account during the process.
@@leshyaedawnfire technically Elanor is able to hire team of seamstresses to sew that cotehardie so it will shorten the time needed (she is queen after all), but I suppose that she either gave them older dress as example or said something like "she's my built but shorter, take measurements from me and it will be fine" so it wasn't fitted properly in a first place :)
@@miramari732 older dress scaled up would be plausible - even accounting for age related growth (the front fits after all), physical activity is going to affect muscle development and Mom would not have taken that into account.
I really like the Gentleman Jack intro because she's lacing herself up! No servant or female friend/relative doing unnecessary tugging motions (especially if the corset is already laced up edge to edge). It's kinda rare seeing someone doing their own lacing, it's always this communal effort, but we don't see the maids doing each other's laces (or I've forgotten that such a scene exists).
THIS! More scenes of people putting corsets on themselves, so we can also lose the myth that it's impossible to get dressed in period clothing on your own.
For some reason, I'm now imagining a lacing scene of a couple (no servants) getting ready to go out, with the husband helping to lace the wife up for an actual reason (her hand is injured? whatever) and it's all about the comfortable routine of two people being a team - they've done that before, they will most likely need to do it again, there's care, practicality but no tension in the couple. And none of that 'husband is an idiot' stuff.
@@mirjam3553 A *healthy* teammate relationship dynamic on TV? Nope, can't possibly have that. /sarcasm
(I do desperately want more scenes like this though. More 19th century power couples helping eachother dress before big events, more cute domestic montages of people being part of their partner's getting-ready routine . . . )
I'm a straight woman but I could watch that intro ten times because it's so badass.
So either you leaked the story to the Sun about Netflix 'banning' corsets, or you have uncanny timing.
Uncanny timing, I promise! This video had been finished since last Sunday, but I'm not gonna complain about being accidentally extra relevant.
Catch that beautiful SEO wave by sheer, beautiful coincidence lol!
@@SnappyDragon I'm glad the trashfire of Sun journalism actually had an upside for once. I did see the piece referenced online (I'd never give them the clicks) and I suddenly felt a great disturbance in the intenet, as if millions of costubers suddenly rolled their eyes and muttered "guess I'm gonna have to talk about this bullshit again" then were silent.
@@OldManFerdiad 🤣 LMAO!✌ Nice!
Another one hit by Apollo's dodgeball
I always thought that Claire clinging to the bedpost was a character moment since a certain famous costume movie had recently come out with its bedpost clinging scene. So my assumption was that since that is probably the most familiar picture with corset Claire has at this point she just... Clings to the post assuming that it's just what's done when infact it's not done.
That makes sense 😁
Ooooh yes well spotted! I love this idea.
Yeah i was thinking something along those lines as well
@@asiabryant207it wilds me out to think that claire couldve actually gone in a movie theatre and seen that movie in person during the actual premiere, timelines makes my head hurt and happy at the sametime
@Kendrick some years ago I was involved in a discussion with some young ( late teens/ early 20s) who were amazed when I said I had seen Star Wars at the movies because that was the only way to see it then (when in was first released). It made me feel old.
I recently got to have a really trope-y corset scene irl when my little sister had to dress up for a school project about the american revolution. She asked to borrow my stays (from Townsend's) and I got to be the older woman helping a younger woman into stays while she clings to a bedpost and moans.
I diagnose her with "fits wrong and has never worn stays before."
🤣🤣🤣
I must confess that I do have one "struggling with a corset" scene in my writing, but it's very much for comedy and not torture corn. Basically, the group of characters need to attend a women-only event, and the one actual woman in the group is attempting to use corsets and padding to give two of her guys-friends some curves so she can sneak them in. Unfortunately, one of them is VERY muscular, and since muscles don't squish very well her attempts to get it to have much of an effect on his silhouette aren't going very well, she's just kinda cussing the corset out while her other two guy friends (one of which was deemed to masculine looking to sneak in) are offering very unhelpful tips and commentary in the background, and the guy being she's trying to dress keeps awkwardly apologizing...
That sounds like an excellent scene! I can totally see that, especially if they're working with corsets not designed for drag.
ROTFLMAO! Oh man is this story available to read online anywhere? I'd love to read it it sound absolutely hilarious! Please if it is can you give me the link for it? Thanking you in advance.
Oh I love everything about this 😂💖
Sounds like a fun story! Is it available anywhere?
That sounds hilarious! Please let me know when/where it's available
Re: 20:20, tight bras can stick - in the hyper-specific instance of them being strapless and having weird rubberized strips on the inside to prevent them falling down. In other words, that sound effect/visual would make more sense after a 2000s prom.
Oh goodness, just imagine what period films will be doing with that in a hundred years.
Oil *or* powder the skin those silicone strips will rest on! It'll totally prevent that Ow! and noise! Sometimes those silicone strips just adhere to the skin too darn well! Cheers doll!
@@SnappyDragons someone who's proms were in that late 90's early 2000's era. (Oh Ye God's do I feel *OLD* now!) I can absolutely attest to the reality of just how painful the bra's & other underwear items that we wore under our dresses were.
The worst one I ever wore is what could only be. Described as an early version of a spanxs body suit. It was *SO* 🤬🤬🤬painful that when I got home. I didn’t even wait untill I got to my room. Before I was striping it off my body & as soon as I got it off.
I took the dam thing outside to my Dad's BBQ soaked the dam thing in an entire bottle off lighter fluid. Set that mother 🤬 on fire & declared. To my stunned parents that I was *NOT* going. To wear anything like that *EVER* again. I didn’t care how good it made me look *NOTHING* was worth that level of pain! Spanx & *ALL* their kin are the Devil's children as far as I'm concerned.
And if you happen to be large busted enough to require a suspension bridge of a sports bra, those can be very rrrrrrrriiiippp after some intense sweating while exercising. It can feel good if you are about to step into a nice cool shower immediately afterwards.
I wore underwire bras for martial arts (getting sideboob knelt on during pins is not pleasant) and yeah I had to peel them off. I had one where the shoulder straps never stayed up (got to do with my slopey shoulders and the angle being not good for staying up if I had it on the loosest setting which I always did cause I hate bras) and I'd unhook it with both shoulder straps falling off and the front would stay put perfectly till I peeled it off. Those underwires were the perfect fit even if the rest of the bra had problems.
Out of curiosity - regarding Outlander and Claire's first lacing/bracing on the bedpost.....Claire is from the future, could it be that she also carries the 'stereotypical attitudes' toward corsets? I which case, she may have instinctively reached for the bedpost.
Another commenter very astutely pointed out that Gone With The Wind would have come out fairly recently, so Claire may have made assumptions because of it!
@@SnappyDragon, it makes perfect sense. Since GWTW came out in 1939 and Claire ending up in 1740s Scotland happens in 1945-46, it would have been a reasonably recent movie for her.
In the books she is against them on principle to the point that the lady lending her a gown for her wedding shreds a set of stays and bones the bodice of the dress.
@@Lulu-qp4jm I wonder, though, if a 1940s woman would be against corsets on principle or if that's the 1990s author accidentally putting in her preconceived notions of corsetry.
@@meganrogers3571 A 1940's woman in general would probably not be against them. But Claire is a military field nurse. Corsets wouldn't be practical in a setting where one is frequently bending and leaning over patients, and where dressing quickly would matter. So her bias against them would be plausible even if it wasn't the common opinion of the time.
I want to lazily argue against lazy writing for Pirates of the Carribbean. But only because I think her tripping might have been noticed by the insanely self-absorbed man attempting to court her. I think the idea might have been that he didn't recognise her discomfort and therefore couldn't anticipate the fainting and so didn't even notice her falling straight away.
BUT it's only a lazy defence of the lazy writing because I do think that heat stroke/having not eaten/awful period could have caused fainting and the corset wouldn't have been maligned yet again.
Oh for sure, there were definitely ways to call more attention to that dynamic as well. And I think a lot of it got missed because so much of the attention was on the corset!
Yeah, or she could have been a bit ill in general, just anything else could have worked.
Also I've read somewhere that idea was that both corset and gown were too small for character as they were both purchased by neglectful father who didn't noticed that his daughter is a little bigger now. None the less it translated badly into "corset shaming" :(
I assumed when he said, "It's the latest fashion from London"
& she replies that, "Women in London must have learnt not to breathe"- that it was a *new model* of corset, & was smaller than her previous one.
But then there was that dumb scene in the fight, "You like pain? Try wearing a corset."
Which annoyingly implies that either- she never wore a corset before the promotion ceremony (I would assume unlikely, in the film, as well as real life of the time).
Or that the memory of her new corset overrode all memory of any ordinary understructures she previously wore.
At this time, she could have easily been wearing 'jumps' as her day-to-day underwear- & no one with half a brain in their head could have considered _them_ uncomfortable....
@@OcarinaSapphr- There's also the fact that the 'latest fashion' for corsetry in that period wouldn't have been shipped to her like it was purchased off the rack. Elizabeth was of a station where she'd be having stays made TO HER MEASUREMENTS, if not by a local staymaker from draping (a quick Google search has shown that Port Royal in 1720 wasn't so large it would obviously have its own staymaker, but it also wasn't so small that a local staymaker would have been silly considering that every single non-enslaved woman would have been expected to wear stays, and some enslaved women would have been expected to wear stays as well, and they definitely don't last forever).
Shakespeare plays having a mishmash of too-modern costumes is something that dates all the way back to Shakespeare’s time. To his audience, it mattered far more whether you could tell a character’s social rank, so nobody cared if, say, Henry V, looked period-accurate as long as he looked sufficiently royal.
Ahhh I would be so interested to look more into this! Maybe a future video . . .
@@SnappyDragon
Noble patrons of actor troops often donated clothes for the actors to use as costumes, since sumptuary laws prevented commoners from wearing, and therefore buying, the fabrics needed to make them. The only time a commoner could legally wear cloth-of-silver and cloth-of-gold was when portraying a character who (according to the laws at the time of performance) would have been allowed to wear those, for example.
Right??? Like when has Hamlet ever been dressed in 10th century Danish fashion. Saxo Gramaticus say whaaa
@@berkleypearl2363 I think we just got that Viking Hamlet thing and the only other thing I know about it is that the Berserkers wear speedos.
That's a great point. Unrelated to the corsets, watching a traditional production of "As You Like It" is great fun; seeing young men acting the parts of young women disguised as young men dressed as young women.
In regards to Little Women, the tightlacing is part of the actual book. Also in the book, she actually does mention it being uncomfortably tight.
Honestly I wouldn't have ranked the scene lower even if she had included the corset in her complaints! Lacing extra for a too-small dress *is* uncomfortable, and this whole set of scenes is great storytelling.
As a transcendentalist she probably never wore a corset except for formal occasions,and definitely not tight-laced. Tight lacing would have come as a bit of a shock.
When I was in middle school and started regularly wearing bra I was veeeery uncomfortable, even if they were the right size and didn't have any push up or metal hoops, I was just not used to the sensation. So it sould be believable.
Also LMA was explicitly interested in dress reform, and goes on about tight laced corsets in Eight Cousins and Jo's Boys, its a preocupation of the original author.
I REALLY want to see Gentleman Jack, now. I know absolutely nothing about it, but the idea of comparing a corset lacing scene to suiting up in a superhero movie is making my heart sing.
It's a lovely show! I haven't seen the second season yet, and the show was cancelled after that afaik. It's based on the diaries of Anne Lister. I don't know how accurate it is when reading the actual diaries, I'm sure there was dramatisation. :)
Definitely watch it! It's an excellent show.
How the ladies armor up before the ball when zombies are about.
m.th-cam.com/video/I2Ph3LBwRYQ/w-d-xo.html
Does anyone know which streaming service has Gentleman Jack? I've been wanting to watch forever too.
@@ZimVader-0017 the bbc has it :)
There's a wonderful deleted scene from Emma 2020 film (it's available on TH-cam). The only dialogue is a beautiful piece of opera that's very merry and upbeat. Emma is getting dressed in her bedroom with her maid assisting her. There's no holding onto something or groans of being uncomfortable/feelings that this is a new experience for our heroine.
I also love the opening 10 mins of Sofia Coppalas 2006 Marie Antoinette. There is a brief scene at the start of her getting into her stays by her maid, but the shot is wide, and she is preoccupied by throwing food to her dog and giggling. It's a wonderful scene. I think both would go in the 'It's a bra' category x x x
I haven't seen that deleted scene, but I did actually film a bit about the scene where Emma and Harriet are practicing dance steps! Loved it, but had to cut it out for timeliness.
I love the Marie Antoinette scenes of her getting dressed. The one of her getting dressed in the tent and she's like, "What in God's name is this?" as the French dressers proceed to rip all the Austrian off her and put on French everything.
@StellaLilly I like that scene as well. Sofia Coppola does a great job at using a change of costume to show how different Marie Antoinettes life in Versailles will be compared to what she is used to in Vienna. I don't think she was especially perplexed by the difference in clothes as the French court had already been a trailblazer for fashions that others courts looked to follow in order to be up to date. We can see in her Austrian clothes she's is already wearing a pannier under her skirt. Her Austrian outfit is a lot more conservative with the muted blue/grey. This is obviously to contrast the beautiful blue outfit she will be put in later.
@marianneshepherd6286 to me, that scene and the choice of before gown and after gown also seemed to represent that she was a child (age 15) who now had to go and play a grown-up role, and how shattering her transition was.
Amazing video.
Also, as an aside, I did like Mrs Fitz's raised eyebrows and 'Mmmmmphm' at Claire's French lingerie. Obviously completely alien to the 18th century and confirming every prejudice Mrs Fitz has about the French, in general.
Why does this not have more likes.
It's *so* hilarious. Well acted!
That was hilarious
At this point in history the Scots and the French had good relations whilst the English and French were so so. So I am assuming she is wondering why Claire has French under things. Mrs. Fitz smells a spy…😂
IIRC Mrs. Fitz said, "What kind of corset is that?!" Claire, "It's a bra-zee-air, it's French". Funny scene. Thanks for reminding me.
I used to fit corsets professionaly, and brand new baby corseters are always shocked at how comfortable they are. And 9 times out of 10 they mention gone with the wind, and the like as why they expected that.
So thankfully these torture corn scenes don't seem to be scaring people away at least! XD
But in GWTW the corset lacing scene is not real "torture corn": in the beginning Scarlett WANTS her corset to be laced more tightly because she WANTS to wear an afternoon/evening dress to the picnic, in order to be sexy and seduce Ashley; after the birth of Bonnie she WANTS her corset laced more tightly because she didn't accept the pregnancy and all that she wants afterwards is to be "the young beauty" again. And while she seems a little uncomfortable, she doesn't seem too affected.
Turns out if they fit you and are laced correctly, you could even do a fully day of work in them . . . almost like many people in the 18th and 19th centuries did!
@@SnappyDragon And some of us still do :)
Fantastic video, as always! In Pride and Prejudice 2005, there's a scene about 35 minutes in where the sisters are getting ready for Mr. Bingley's ball. Lydia is lacing Kitty into her stays and says "breathe in!". Its not really torturous in my eyes, but I think it works within the context. They're two teenagers going to a fancy ball and want to show off to the other guests and to the young men there.
I feel like that's a very good character moment for them! Lydia is definitely the sort of person who would go to extremes in that situation, and who would pressure Kitty to do the same.
The subtext in Lydia’s “Breathe in!” is “so that I don’t lace you so tightly that it makes it harder for you to dance all night.”
@@ragnkja I was going to say - breathing in gives you MORE space (because you expand your ribcage fully) rather than less space.
@@sonipitts Yeah you have to breathe out to lace it tightly, good point!
*chuckle * I almost spit my tea across the room when you used the term, shapewear when speaking about Mrs.Maisel. Having grown up in the era before panty hose, what she was wearing should have had garters to hold up her stockings and was called a girdle. They came in so many different styles from very utilitarian cotton numbers to fancy lacy ones but stuck to the 3 basic colours beige, white and black. And, yes, they had versions that would make sitting very uncomfortable.
It's tricky to find catch-all terms for all the generations of these sorts of garments for sure!
I have a girdle and the best things are it sucks in your tummy like nobody's business and has snaps at the bottom. modern shapewear seems to forget how vital the snaps at the crotch are... I've never had a problem sitting in mine, but my girdle is a playtex.
@@GoddessNeith I remember when bodysuits were trendy in the early-mid 90s with their snaps at the crotch. I also remember being extremely irritated with them. Having to pull down my jeans, then unsnap, then pull down underware, THEN trying to RE-snap the damn thing while wearing it! Unsanitary as it may have been, I often just pulled it and my undies to the side.
Short answer, yes, tight bras can stick like this, especially where sweat gathers. Like, have to peel off the skin carefully. Not usual. May not happen in bras manufactured after 1990's.
This has happened with several brands. Where they left visible indentations, both vertical and horizontal marks.
An example (Bali, brand, c. 1970's). They were made of boning, not just underwire, but, short bones, too, and definitely "bra" shaped, two inches below the bust, or less, is where the bottom of the bra band ended. I used to have to carefully use my fingers to detach it from my skin, or, it would remove the outer layer of my skin.
I concede that perhaps I am the only one this has happened to. But, I doubt it.
Oof, that sounds like some cruddy material choices from the bra manufacturer!
@@SnappyDragon indeed!
I guess "beware the late mid century bra fit, especially when you have moist skin".
For the record, the bras were not "uncomfortably tight", just very snug, and the cups, straps and bands fit without gapeing, bulging overflow, or awkward indentations.
Just "mean" materials, I am guessing.
(as a small aside, a cup that sits under the fold under the breasts, instead of precisely in that fold, is either the wrong shape or the wrong size. Often both. just an FYI)
@@AnnekeOosterink agree!
I've had this happen with assorted garments when I've been sweaty. Trying to get out of tight jeans you've been sweating in all day? Ick. You're really peeling yourself out of them. I've also been my chemise stick a little bit when I unlaced my bodice at the end of the day at the ren faire.
As a butch with a thing for butch women, the Gentleman Jack intro was a must watch in every episode for me. One of my favorite portrayals of women's masculinity in tv, balancing the masculine and feminine in a sexy and authentic way that I just loved to see. The appeal of seeing a woman preparing for her day, getting dressed, "putting on her face" so to speak, but with that masculine edge and manner.
It's an exceptionally well-made sequence, and I feel like every department was showing their best in it. Great camera work, great music, great editing, great acting, and of course great costumes.
Mid-20th-century shapewear was even stranger than corsetry. It was all made out of industrial-strength elastic, and sometimes even sheet rubber. It was horribly uncomfortable. (As a teenage girl I was socially constrained to wear one for certain occasions). If a woman's body wasn't restrained and re-shaped by her "girdle", she was considered a "loose woman"! My mother wore such an undergarment almost every day. And she always complained about how uncomfortable she was in it. Going to formal occasions, she said, forced her to wear her "sit-down" shoes and her "stand-up corset".
Though you know what is interesting is when the girdle is starting to replace the corset or overtake it. As well as the general media in the 1940s/1950s
In that many advertisements, books, or even just lines in historical movies, really prefer to comment on how much better girdles ( and in general the fashions) are much better than what "their grandmothers wore".
When you examine more and more, you do notice surprisingly that many of the corset myths and myths regarding historical clothing.
Came from girdle advertisements and/or media (i.e. videos )clothes praising the latest fashions, which makes sense in the way.
That when a new invention or a new thing comes out, you sometimes tend to see people deploring or hating on the thing that it is trying to replace.
This is interesting now because I see people from vintage fashion or fashion history Facebook groups that talk similarly or the same about the girdles and undergarments of that time/decade.
For example in a video from British Pathe, titled ""Shades Of Grandmama" (1946)." specifically, you can hear a lot of the corset myths being mentioned by the narrator.
Especially about tightlacing stating as if that was common or conflating regular corset wearing and tightlacing as being the same thing
Oooh that would be a really interesting thing to investigate! Even as corset styles changed, there was a lot of marketing around how "old" style corsets were unhealthy and newer ones were safer.
The sit down shores are a thing I think about too - though I tend to think of them in terms of minutes
I was born in 1953 and girdles were such a thing! I wore one a time or two as a teenager and they were HORRIBLE! Hard to get into, they ROLL DOWN on some people (me!), they are SUPER TIGHT... I would absolutely prefer a well made corset!
My mother had those rubber girdles in the 60s! I remember they sometimes came in a heavy cardboard tube, and the rubber smelled weird.
i have so much respect for you for understanding that not every period drama wants to be accurate. Sadly, i get too caught up in the details and end up very frustrated. This might be because i when i watch a period piece, i mostly watch it for the costumes
Sometimes I watch for the costumes, but, like . . . I have a different set of goals for every outfit or video I make, and a film production will be no different, so I feel like I can appreciate things like the costumes in Much Ado for being true to the intended creative vision.
Hi! I love your video. I had a thought about the Pirates of the Caribbean scene though - is this scenario possible? Her father, in trying to surprise her, has sent old measurements to the dressmaker in London, or simply wrote "create the latest style, you have her measurements" but those measurements are from a year ago, even 6 months ago, and he hasn't realized how much his "little girl", who is a fast-growing teen, has actually grown. Or she grew in the time it took to send an order to London, make the stays/gown, and ship it back to the Caribbean. Certainly I've noticed this with my own child - they grow taller, but then later they grow wider - so even if she's the same height she could have had a growth spurt width-wise. So it arrives, it's too small, but father insists that she wear it anyway to he ceremony, so they lace tight to fit into the gown, just for a couple hours, to attract Norrington. It's clearly tighter than she's used to lacing, and complains that she "can't breathe" which is obviously unusual for her. Anyway, just a thought I had - that this would be a historically accurate scenario, between a loving but bumbling father, teens growing, and the time it would take to get the dress.
The thing that's extra insulting with the Pirates of the Caribbean thing is it's also the "not like the other girls" trope
To give these writers a tiny bit of grace, I think the modern woman/girl also relates to the idea of support garments for more formal occasions being less comfortable than for everyday occasions. The idea of Elizabeth Swann being tight laced into a corset for an important event is like your mom buying you control-top pantyhose to wear under your dress at your cousin's wedding. It's ahistoric, but oftentimes I think the intent may be more to help the viewer relate to the character than to show a made up barbarous past.
I have some STRONG feelings on all that's done in the name of making historical characters "relatable" that has nothing to do with history . . .
Scrolled through to see if anyone beat me to it, but "Gone with the Wind" has a bed-post-clinging corset scene. Not sure if it was film-only or in the book as well. It's been a while since I saw the movie, but I remember it being not nearly as dramatic as "Meet Me in St. Louis" of the same era, and less sexualized. In my understanding, it was more of a vehicle for showing Scarlett's unreasonable personality as she insists on being laced down far smaller than she can physically go, and the maid refuses.
I thought about including it, but there would be a lot of additional layers to talk about-- 1940s views of corsets vs modern views of corsets vs. modern views of 1940s views of corsets . . . maybe we'll do it in the future!
@@SnappyDragon I think there is another interesting layer to this scene. Scarlett is outrageously competitive. Its possible that the moment has less to do with corsetry and in this case, the person in the corset. Scarlett likes an extreme if it means she gets to win.
I don't recall if that scene *specifically* is in the book or not, but I do recall that the book mentions Scarlett's 16 in waist in the first chapter as something she is extremely proud of. And later in the book, after she has had two children, she is upset that the tightest she can lace down to isn't but 18 inches. And I think it is that scene? Where she keeps yelling at Mammie to pull harder. Vanity was very much one of Scarlett's character flaws.
@@thevirtualtraveler That is what I recall as well. It would be an interesting conversation then. Scarlett is clearly a tight lacing advocate but is she doing it to attract men or is she doing it so she can find herself the best? Maybe a bit of both but I would argue that even attracting a man is competition to her until she learns to be vulnerable to others later in her life.
A scene in which I'm fairly certain nobody mentions the corsets, but they are VERY apparent is "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" where all the girls are sharing a room, and dancing around in their frilly underthings.
I think I saw that as a tiny kidlet. Might be due for a rewatch!
Yes!! I feel like no one ever talks about this movie!
i love that movie, plus the patchwork dresses!!!
I love that movie, and that scene is always fun. But I think they were really wearing what I've always known as a "Merry Widow". I've worn "Merry Widows" on stage, and they are fine. Certainly more comfortable than a long-line bra plus a (crotchless) girdle, which would be the "everyday" version. I had aunties who wore the long-line bra/girdle shenanigans (plus gartered stockings) until they died, at 81 and 96 years old! As a young woman, I was incredibly relieved when panty girdles, and then long leg panty girdles (not to mention pantyhose) came in.
I really imagine that Claire in Outlander held onto the bedframe because *she* was influenced by the movie trope lol.
I really do love this explanation for it! Now I almost wish they'd shown her reaching for the bedpost and Mrs. Fitz being like "What are you doing? No one does that"
The only thing comparable to The Alienist scene I can think of... Was an awful, rubberized ''waist trainer'' I used to have a long time ago, that was way too tight for me and that stuck to me in that way (and made that sound when I took it off) and left similar marks on my skin.
I wonder if they took that idea from something like this, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Some ideas people have about corsets seem derived from stuff like Spandex and cheap ''corsets'' available today. It's funny because it's only possible in a MODERN piece of clothing LOL
Uuuugh that does not sound fun to wear!
OMG! That honestly sounds more like some kind of fetish wear than an actual undergarment. That or it's a bastardised pair of Spanxs.
If I've gotten sweaty, my chemise kinda sticks to me, and while you can't hear a noise it *feels* like it's peeling off. Of course, the save thing happens with leggings, or a workout shirt, or any tight clothing when I'm hot so...
@@sarahr8311 yeah I get the same thing with my sportswear shirt when I've been doing armoured fighting in the summer. and that's supposed to be made out of a fabric that's not supposed to hold water!
My interpretation of the Bridgerton scene is that it is Lady Featherington simply not caring about her daughter’s comfort. It’s inter-mixed with an opposing attitude from Lady Bridgerton which is what makes it so striking. Her dialogue is something to the affect of “I wore this size so you will to” which just shows how little she cares about her daughter’s comfort and more that she makes the “right kind” of appearance.
Agreed. It seemed like it was more illustrative of Lady Featherington's narcissism than anything else. It's notable that she has three daughters and only one is subjected to tight lacing because that's the only daughter she thinks is "worthy" of her attention.
Had to pause right after the mention of "Much Ado About Nothing, set within a Renaissance Fair" to yell about what a fantastic idea it is and how extremely inspired I am!! Brief tangent: once when I was in school we had to "adapt" some Shakespeare plays as our final project, with a sort of alternate-universe twist. My group chose Much Ado, which we remade as a high school reunion, and it worked really well! I would LOVE to see a version that got to use Ren Fair aesthetics, or any other fun costumed convention... I might even write it myself!
Also-- although I'm sure someone's said this already-- it just fits so well with the vibe of Shakespeare scripts themselves. My man was not a historian, the scripts care very little for "historical accuracy" (I'm just remembering an old Kyle Kallgren video saying that the guy put a harbor in Padua and clocks in ancient Rome, lol), and my favorite versions of Shakespeare are when people just embrace the non-Broadway budget theater vibe. (Which is no knock to any high-budget productions, I just like a variety!)
Anyway, back to the rest of the video! Just know that Much Ado at the Ren Fair will be living rent-free in my head for the forseeable future ♥
Oh believe me when it happens it will be WELL documented here! 👀 at my local renfaires . . .
Brave actually has a corset tight lacing scene. I remember it because I knew that corsets weren't a thing yet in the style era they were going for.
I saw that film once, very grudgingly, when a friend dragged me to see it in a theater right after it came out. I didn't even remember there was a corset in it!
@SnappyDragon nah it was just a lace up dress
@princesssparkle529 no, there was a corset scene, right before her mother puts her in that tight dress
Oof. Yes. I've had poorly fitted bras literally peel off of me. Though this was back in the day when they were still using a lot of rubber on the outside of the bra next to the skin, which they don't do anymore. And yes, it was just as bad as you can imagine.
That sounds unpleasant indeed! This is why we love a good chemise.
I actually like Brave but only because my mind trying to function in this world deprived of queer representation has decided that Merida is aroace.
Also the moment you placed the picture next to you head made me actually scream "Oh for fs sake, not all red haired people are the same person" at the screen. That is really frustrating.
It definitely has its good qualities! But yeah, that comment about the hair gets really old.
During college, I went on a costume tour of England and Paris as a study abroad for my theatre degree. We got to see a heavily pregnant women be corseted and clothed in Tudor era upper echelon clothing. Pretty neat experience.
Oh wow, that sounds fascinating!
To the Alienist scene: I am completely sure that it's NOT a thing for tight bras to cling to most people's skin but... Yes, I have had to rip tight bras off my fragile, fragile EDS skin because the pressure/moisture has bonded them together, but if that was what they were trying to portray (which I'm 100% sure they were NOT) some of her skin should have come off with the corset. 🙃
The representation would have been nice, but then they'd have needed to do a better job with it.
@@SnappyDragon I mean, it would have really hit harder for the torture corn, but they made it obvious they were only going after low-hanging fruit 🙄
Yeah, too-tight bras that don't fit properly do that even to normal skin if they're worn too long. I have the marks and calluses to prove it, as well as had days when bras were excruciating because it didn't occur to teenage me that I could wear a non-wired bra out of the house. Yes, on those days, there was even blood. Which was how I first discovered how comfortable corsets really were because they are infinitely adjustable and so never chafe! Not to mention you don't wear them straight on the skin so the metal can dig in, WHO would design underwear to be worn like that?
@@luciesimpson6437 people who don't wear it....
I was really surprised when you pulled out The Discovery of Witches as a good example because while I had no idea that it had been made into a TV show, I did read the books and it is the exact opposite! The first less than 20 pages into her time travel adventures the main character Diana complains out being 'trussed up' and quote " I held my breath, tucked in my stomach, and hoped for a miracle as [the maid] pulled the corset's laces tight, but nothing short of divine intervention was going to give me a sylphlike silhouette." So definitely not the clip we saw where she seemed vaguely amused and interested by everything. But earlier on the page she mentions that she is borrowing a pair of "quilted stays to confine [her] athletic figure into a more feminine shape" and it would be pretty damn hard to tightlace in a pair of quilted stays haha.
The other line I was deeply disappointed by was "My career- oriented 21st century life faded further away with each restricted breath"
Sounds like the show may have improved over the book!
I came to say almost this. Also adding that, for a historian the MC has ZERO knowledge about what things are called. They’re described (badly) and then the name is thrown in haphazardly several chapters later. Looking at you bum roll. Don’t even get me stared on the descriptions of the horseback riding scenes 🤦🏻♀️
who needs to watch a period drama while eating dinner when a new vid of V is uploaded. perfect timing today!
Claire holding on to the bedpost read to me more as a 'if i dont i will fall on mrs Fitz because im not used to being pulled on like that' than a 'omg this is so tight why?' moment
Yeah, the acting really is the distinction! Her face and body language definitely read more as "how the heck do I keep my balance" than anything else.
I would argue that the “Downton Abby” scene could be plausible. If we think of a corset as “just a bra”loosening the corset is an era equivalent to wearing a more comfortable bra. While corsets themselves were not designed to be uncomfortable, the standard at the time encouraged them to be worn in an uncomfortable manner. Similarity, fashion today encourages underwire and push-up bras which are often uncomfortable. Loosening her corset shows that she is choosing her own comfort over what she looks like to others which is a great way to not only SAY she’s beginning to accept feminist ideas, but show her putting those beliefs into practice.
Yes!! Basically a step away from not wearing one. I loved her feminist growth in the show and by far was sad when she left the show/
I have to rewatch it, but I thought this scene was as much about her coming of age as it was about her questioning social norms. She’s supposed to be quite young at the beginning of the series and as she grows her dresses and corsets mature as well. she’s not accustomed to the tighter style. Either way I think it shows her character growing and developing.
About the dress from Brave. I think the problem is with the specific dress. And the fact her parents were expecting her to sit still and look pretty during that scene. Because her other dress in the film doesn’t rip no matter what she does
Loved this - if you do another one would welcome your thoughts on Harlots if you get the chance to see it. The whole thing is a little melodramatic but has its basis in fact (it’s based on a book about the ‘ladies of Covent Garden’) the costumes are fun and I didn’t spot any of the usual stays/corset nonsense everyone seems comfortable and matter a fact about them
It was for sure on my first pass list! Would love to include it if I do a a round 2.
@@SnappyDragon Crossing fingers for a round 2!
@@SnappyDragon -- (whispers) i would love a round two.
They do such a good job of normalizing stays in Harlots! There's so many scenes of characters lounging in bed in their stays and otherwise treating them as a comfortable, normal garment.
Megs( little women) barrowed dress scene was lifted from the book itself. Where tight dress gave her ' a side ache' and she was uncomfortable with her sholders on display, im wondering if the dress itself was low cut for 'modest meg'
Yes, that's definitely something I could see!
I just have to say I’m excited to see someone else who likes the 2017 Little Women and who likes it better than the 2019 version! I personally don’t like the 2019 version and I really enjoyed the mini series from 2017! So that’s great to see!!! 😋
yeah, the 2019 version had a few goody storytelling moments but missed a lot of other opportunities!
There are things I love about the 2017 version. Maya Hawke is amazing as Jo. Also Marmee here is sooooo good. But I hate how they did Amy. They made her so completely loathsome. Also, the music is horrific. And the scarlet fever scene is super traumatic. So it's too much of a mixed bag to replace the 90's version in my heart.
you should see the version made in the 1970s with Meredith baxter and susan dey. it's VERY VERY close to the book. and my favorite version of them all.
Could we have a Ranking in all the Little Women movies and Series? Pretty please with Sugar on top?
@@GoddessNeith I may have seen it years ago but I don't remember it!
This is a book (maybe a good follow up video) not a movie, but your video reminded me of the bad corset scenes in "Little House in the Big Woods." The aunts and mom are lacing down and a comment is made about how the husband can "span his wife's waist with his hands." The funny thing about that is how I pictured the enormous giant hands of the man, not the tiny size of the woman when I read that book as kid.
It would have to be a very small woman *and* some very large hands!
That was Ma talking about how slim she was in her youth when Pa was courting her. It's likely she was under twenty, or much younger than that, plus had never had children. So... even if she wasn't tight lacing it's possible that even a gently laced corset would have made her waist small enough for Pa to put his hands around. He was a bigger man, if I recall correctly, and a not a gentleman so his hands would have been made larger by work. A three to four inch reduction in width is possible without discomfort depending on your personal padding. :)
Ma also shows some extremely classist (and racist) attitudes in later books. She might have clung to tight lacing as a way to show her 'upper-class' roots, even when it didn't really make sense for the life she was actually living.
@@TheDesertMarmot You and OP both have to remember that these were mostly true stories and Laura was writing down events she remembered happening. Yes, she skipped over some parts of her life where her family traveled back and forth, but the books were based on real events. Ma's prejudices weren't Laura's fault.
@@SnappyDragon I have a book that includes some photographs of the Ingallses. Charles's hands are indeed very large, and though I don't think they'd quite fit around Caroline's waist as it appears in the picture (dated 1860, five years before the birth of their first child), she does look slim.
Various sources I've read (including a beautifully written and well-researched book called "Caroline" by Sarah Miller that retells "Little House on the Prairie" from Ma's POV) said that Caroline herself went through some severe poverty and undernourishment in her youth. So that could have definitely contributed to her waist being small when she met Charles, her daughter Carrie faces near-starvation in "The Long Winter" and is afterwards described as being "small", "frail", and "weak" for the next few years.
edit: I made my comment before watching the video, hahahahaha
So far I think my favorite recently of putting on undergarments, including stays, has been the second season of A Discovery of Witches, when the main character really puts on the period clothes for the first time, she's a historian so you can see this delight allover her face of having the lady's maid help her get dressed in these clothes (I know this show costume-wise was ranked really low, but I do really like that scene)
I love that scene so much! And while the costumes may not be highly ranked for accuracy, they were a stark contrast to . . . certain other productions, in how they treated the actress. Apparently she was nursing a 7-month-old during production, so they put special removable panels in her costumes so she could chest-feed. Basically, proof that period costuming itself is not why actresses are in pain on set . . .
Joss already ruined his shows for me by *gestures* being Joss, but learning that he finds fighting ladies sexy just tainted my memories of all the good fight choreography in Buffy. DAMN YOU, JOSS 😭
I'm sure the quality of the choreography in those fight scenes, as in the Nevers, is far more down to the fight choreographers than Whedon himself. I really wish I was able to find the article I was looking for about it!
@@SnappyDragon that's absolutely something I'm willing to get believe whether or not there's evidence, if only to have some part of the whedonverse untainted. 😔
Loved the Gentleman Jack nod! I remember the show's creators saying in an interview somewhere they were inspired by a scene in a film of a female bull fighter getting dressed for battle and wanted to create something similar to that - so your reading is spot on!
As an Asexual, I have to ask, regarding the sexualized framing of corsets in film, I must ask the question: Can we not? It’s just weird, and I don’t like fetishizing historical clothes, especially as a fashion guy
This! Like, there are suitable storytelling moments to use a "sexy" corset during, but somehow that's never when we see corsets being sexualized . . .
as an asexual i think corsets can be super sensual and i hate it when a good corset scene is ruined by inaccurate portrayals
they're absolutely missing the aesthetic and sensual and erotic potential of a good corset and if they dont realize that handflossed boning channels are integral to this appeal then why even bother trying to make corsets seggsy i feel robbed every time, also dressing scenes should be longer and more elaborate in general
With the outlander bedpost scene, I thought it was just about getting the back lacing personalized. Later in the season we see Claire get dressed by herself and, from what I remember, she laced from the front.
I know the pink tax is a thing but i feel like no one talks about how bras can be a real financial disadvantage for women and teen girls, or whoever else needs bras.
I feel like as a woman who needs some supportive bras, finding anything that works well and doesn't cost an arm and a leg is so prohibitive. Especially because of how often you should replace your bras. I would find it empowering to have affordable support lol
I wonder if corsets were more cost effective than todays bras? I know it would be hard to figure out what someone in the past spent on corsets and laundering them, and repairing them, and replacing them compared to what people do today...but it makes me wonder about the companies who sell bras today and if they are profitting off of us being unconfortable for no good reason.
Having bras that fit well is important for your health and effects our abilities to do jobs or take care of kids or the elderly...there are so many things it can affect.
Would definitely be interesting! I suppose one could try to compare the average cost of a corset vs. a person's budget during the same timeframe. What might also factor in is that since corsets were worn over a chemise whereas bras are worn next to the skin, the corset stayed cleaner and fewer changes would be needed.
Corsets weren't generally laundered. But yes they would have been much more cost effective as they could be adjusted through a woman's cycle and pregnancy.
I don't know how to put it into words but I find the whole trope of the woman gasping when being laced very torture corn-y in an almost sexual violence kind of way. Like it's very similar to "first time" scenes (aka The Duchess). It's very male gaze-y. I hope that made sense 😂
You're absolutely right, and that's why I hate it.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thinks this.
Enola Holmes is another one that is guilty of 'good corset, lazy writing.' Enola has pretty good 1880s underwear, and she literally calls corsets and bustles repressive. The writing is blatantly lazy modern feminism/chronological snobbery.
Yeah, that would be a tricky one to rank because it's got some good points (still being able to fight in a corset), and some frustrating ones like what you mention.
I shouted "YES, EXACTLY" out loud at the start of this video.
Budgets, costumer availability and skill, and costume designs differ wildly between production.
It is absolutely unfair and unproductive to rag on productions for not having "historical accuracy" when they are works of fiction and there's no reason to be historically accurate.
It doesn't serve the production or the story to sink a bunch of resources into historically accurate corsets to appease a tiny fraction of the audience. It does not matter. It's fiction.
You're absolutely right imo that writing and stereotypes used in lazy writing are the issue.
Policing historical accuracy for the sake of attacking productions has been done to death and always complain about the same things. It's why I just ignore most historical costuming reviews or analysis videos anymore.
Thank you for taking this approach, this was a really nice, interesting, fresh way to look at this.
Thank you so much! Yeah, there are for sure productions that use historical accuracy to set the scene (like The VVitch), and there are productions that have other goals for their costuming (like Bridgerton's aesthetic, or the 1993 Much Ado). I care a lot more about whether a period piece was good to their actors and their wardrobe department, like I've read A Discovery of Witches was, then I do about seam lines.
Always love your videos! I also love the 2017 Little Women Maya Hawke is such a good Jo and I love how they talk about Beth’s anxiety
It's so good, and so underrated!
I had a thought while you were talking about the Essex Serpent (full disclosure: I have not seen it): is it possible that the scene mixes the PTSD of the jewelery, the scar on her neck, and her feeling about that with a modern audience's misunderstandings about corsetry - thereby underscoring her feelings of been bound, restricted, and suffocated by her marriage? Just a thought.
I can see that being the thought process, but if so I still think it's a poor writing decision, and not well executed onscreen.
I have in my work a story idea that is yet another time-travel story.
My heroine travels back to 1650s Cromwellian England. And I want to avoid any bad tropes or wrong ideas of the corset/stays, thanks to channels like yours SnappyDragon.
Nice! I don't know tons about that period, but AFAIK you'd be looking mostly at boned or stiffened dress bodices. Izabela from Prior Attire has a really good middle-class getting dressed video for around that time, I think!
people are so insane about corsets making lines like i have permanent lines on my back from tight bras and i havent worn a bra in literally years Its Still Like That (worse even!)
Next they're going to come after face masks for leaving lines! Oh wait . . .
I get lines from tight socks, for crying out loud! Also from sitting on wrinkled fabric, the elastic in tight shorts, and the time I fell asleep on my gerbils cage. It's almost like pressure leaves lines!
I have permanent divots in my shoulders from 55 years of bra straps!
I feel like the pirate movie kinda goes with the same idea of the borrowed dress in my head. They had just pulled that dress out of the box and made it work best they could to get her married immediately. Maybe my head just added the reason for it because I love the movie though
I still think it's a writing reach, but it shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the movie if you love it!
Glad to see some love for the 2017 Little Women! It's the adaptation that felt most like the book to me, though the 2019 film had it's qualities (not so much in the costuming, for the most part, alas). There's another good scene towards the end that shows Jo having to get into her corset by herself when she's in New York, which I thought was a real "it's a bra" moment...
I did love that scene! I very much got the vibe that she can for sure do it herself, but misses the convenience of living with sisters and helping eachother tie the laces.
I love this so much, but I missed (or the video is missing) the link to Joss Whedon's problematic portrayal of women and I *really* want to watch this! Pretty please?
Oh crud! Sorry, I wasn't able to find the article I was looking for (and I'm really disappointed about it). But I'll add a link to another one.
@@SnappyDragon my funnier headcannon for that scene would be snagging on the way down, getting tangled and cussing, ripping, spinning and struggling all the way down to the bottom. You could even have fighting in a shredded dress with interesting choreography. Instead it's just 'heroine ends up in underwear for male gaze'. Le sigh.
@@SnappyDragon Thank you so much! TH-cam never notified me of your reply, it only just occurred to me now to check
To be fair to Claire, I wear a corset regularly and often find bracing on a doorframe (for lack of bedposts) is helpful if someone else is lacing me in and tightening things. But then, I’m not very squishy and also have Autism related motor control and balance issues that make otherwise bracing difficult some days
Oh the irony of the feminist = anti corset… when any good history enthusiast knows about all the misogyny women faced for wearing corsets and padding to create the fashionable silhouettes.
People really think the “take her swimming” trope is new. 😂
Precisely!
This was awesome. You always do a great job on these sorts of videos.
I'm waiting for the slew of Bridgerton dumps corsets videos btw.
Ahahahahah consider this my contribution? Pretty much everything I have to say in this video can be applied to that mess of an article equally.
Oooh! Abby Cox & the rest of the Catherine de' Medici Time Travel Society are doing a live stream on. Abby's channel here on TH-cam on Saturday (US EST) about this very subject you may want to check it out.
Have you seen Oklahoma? There’s a wonderful scene where all the girls stop a a house on the way to a dance for a rest, and undress down to their undergarments. They proceed to have a song and dance wearing these clothes. It’s one of my favorite movie musicals and this scene is one of my favorites. This would be the 1955 version with Shirley Jones. She was stunning.
I think it shows that you don't really like Merida. The scene was not meant to show real clothing. It showed the problems between Merida and her mom. The dress of the mother fits perfectly. It's not too tight and she can move just fine. She has no problems moving her arms any way she likes. Merida's dress doesn't fit. It's too tight. Too constrained, but not by design, it just doesn't fit and her mom doesn't listen to her when she tries to tell her that. We see the kitchen aid wearing a similarly styled dress that's just a bit less fancy but she too can move just fine. And that's the point. Merida's mom doesn't listen and doesn't fix issues that make Merida uncomfortable even when her complaints are reasonable, making the situation much harder than it already is. So she provokes Merida to break out of those silly restraints and obligations, and the too tight dress is just a symbol of Merida feeling uncomfortable in her role and even more so because her mom is too occupied with appearances to see that the dress litterally doesn't fit and is too tight. She ignores Merida telling her so and waltzes all over her needs, not seeing the actual problems this causes. Merida can't even move or sit down in that dress but her mom, who's moving and sitting just fine, doesn't even see that because she thinks Merida is just causing drama. It's not like the dress is fine or normal, it's not as it should be. The whole point is that it's not ok, but her mom doesn't care, doesn't listen and doesn't see what's right in front of her and forces her to wear a dress that doesn't fit just because she's more occupied with other people's comfort to believe her daughter when she said that it's too tight.
Though we don't get much at all in the way of corsets, the beginning of Dangerous Liaisons, with Glenn Close and John Malkovitch (sp), has a wonderful opening sequence of the two main characters prepping for the day - feels real and believable, and is much like arming themselves for battle: th-cam.com/video/4GBhKrwdqjo/w-d-xo.html
Love this! This entire film has beautiful costuming, and it's a great way to set the scene and visually introduce us to the characters and setting.
Sometimes if I've had a really sweaty day (or it's the middle of summer), yeah, sometimes I have to peal off my bra...
The press around the costumes for Outlander drove me crazy! I agree they did some cool things with them (I saw some talk about how the clothes for the wedding night scene required it to take longer to undress the characters than would normally happen, and ok, that's interesting.) But "better than normal" is a thing. Don't do an article talking about how incredibly accurate everything is WITH A HEADER SHOT OF SERVANTS IN LIVERY. In the 18th century.
The scenes from the first season are also hilarious, since Claire canonically refuses to wear "corsets" when she first lives in the past. (Instead of her much more sensible embracing of stays and refusal to wear caps when she's older). I don't know whether that was ignored because they wanted to put corsets into the show, or if it was another one of the things where the author realised she'd made a mistake, and instead of doubling down on it, just fixed it going forward.
The differences necessary in costuming for film vs for historical reproduction are something I would LOVE to see more discussion of! It makes perfect sense that they'd need to account for the script and cinematography when making an outfit where taking it off is worked into the plot.
Have you ever seen the Jane Powell movie "Two Weeks With Love"? Basically the entire plot revolves around a corset. It's old and cute and is about a girl who's parents think she's too young for a corset. But being a teenager who wants to fit in she thinks she's just going to die without one. There is an entire dream sequence/musical number where she dances around in a corset she saw in a magazine.
I have not, but that sounds super interesting!
@@SnappyDragon It's a movie I enjoy, anyway. I managed to find the dream sequence. th-cam.com/video/r410_Nix0Aw/w-d-xo.html
I love this because it is the feelings I also have, but you articulate it much better, so I will be apologetically stealing some of these lines for conversation!
Oh please do! It's why I make videos like this.
I have some ideas for good natural materials for boning in corsetry in my opinion:
Bamboo is a good material because it is hard and it is possible it could last longer than the other common types of reed. Although I cannot guarantee if it is rot resistant or not, I have tried to cut thin bamboo twigs to make reed pens by using a sharp crafting knife and it was not easy. Bamboo is used extensively in East Asian cultures and for basketry, bulding construction and millinery. Bamboo textiles are also used in clothing because it is flexible and possible sustainable. I am not sure if bamboo can save water use compared to other plants but it is definitely well worth a try.
Bones (not baleen) and feathers, especially those from abattoirs can be useful and you can save them from being thrown away. Bone waste from cooked steak and leftover meat can also be used if you do not know what to do with them. If you found smaller bones, it still can be useful as such with powdered bone. Featherbone from turkey birds was also used historically in corsetry in the early 20th century. The most common sources for bone waste are cattle, sheep, fowls and other commonly farmed animals. However, here's a warning: do not try to source any bones or materials from whales (even from whales who are hunted by Norway, Iceland and Japan today, just no exceptions) and other critically endangered species who are hunted to extinction for their bodies and please check the sources of your bones from animals to make sure you do not profit from illegal exotic trades because just like whale baleen and ivory, sourcing illegally from endangered animals can cause serious environmental damage and there will be no more beautiful species left.
I saw the title and knew it would be good! You reminded me of Jill Bearup and her armor tier videos. The breakdown explanation you give is very helpful. Please do another video like this! 👍
Glad you enjoyed it! I've actually had to disengage from her content due to her transphobia, but I did watch it for a while and can't deny that it has been an influence. More tier list videos are definitely in the works, though!
@@SnappyDragon What??? She is transphobic??? Oh god, no...... 😭
I like her content, but I also don't like transphobia.
@@johannageisel5390 ah crap, same. I like her fights and armour stuff but terfyness gets an unsubscribe from me!
Unfortunately yes, and it's very disappointing. But she's been struck from my subscriptions and watching habits accordingly.
@@SnappyDragon I am grieving. :(
I hate it when I lose faith in somebody I liked.
Okay, PLEASE I need this hypothetical production of Much Ado About Nothing staged at a Ren Faire. I need this in my life so badly.
If I can figure out how, I will!
Pity there isn't enough depictions of male corsets to do a breakdown.
I know!!! I would be really interested to analyze how the portrayals differ by gender and context.
@@SnappyDragon NGL I was also interested in seeing just how enormous George IV corset was
Well, I have a couple more movies to add to my list. I agree with the butchness of Gentlemen Jack, which has been one of my favorite series in the last few years. My partner saw the opening and said to me, "That corn to you, isn't it?" And now jokes about that all the time, but I mean hand-sewn buttons!
I loved the alienist for the most part. I liked the story and the costumes rather well done.... except the corset scene, and it really aggravated me.
Gentleman Jack did such a good job with the costuming details in that sequence! If you're going to do things like the carved busk and hand-done buttons, definitely put them someplace they'll get the focus they deserve.
Between V's rant here - which is totally deserved by the way. Holywood's misuses of corsetry of all era's is one of. My biggest pet peves when watching a historical drama. (Sorry about my own personal rant there everyone.)
& the upcoming live stream of the Catherine de' Medici Time Travel Society on Abby Cox's channel. This is turning out to be a *VERY GOOD* week for feminist fashion ranting.
I am SO READY to see this trope die! And I am pleased to see fewer examples of the awful tightlacing tropes than I used to, although they're certainly alive and kicking.
@@SnappyDragon I swear to all the God's past present & future what we need. To k*ll this utter b🤬tch of a historical fashion fallacy off once & for all.
Is for a woman to run & win something like the. Boston or New York marathon in a historically accurate corset. That would shut down the bastards who perpetuate these corsetry myths!
If I was in the least bit able to run I would do it. But I can't I broke my ankle & foot as a child & it healed badly. So sometimes even walking is hard for me.
A suggestion for you. Look into modern body armor. While not a corset, depending on the style you have, they snap and velcro in the front and have side cinches. Early 2000's through 2010's body armor with plates weighs a lot and is uncomfortable, particularly if you wear it loose. All the weight hangs on your shoulders and causes pain over time. The best way to wear it is to put it on loose, and cinch it down till the horizontal pressure on your ribs lifts it off your shoulders. Which distributes the weight and makes it more wearable. I wore this daily for decades. I regularly got bruises on my chest and back from it. I also moved and worked in it. If you could get your hands on one you could easily work this into a modern tightlace corset equivalent that is predominantly worn by men.
Let's not forget the male corset, often making the male character a fop or fool. "Charge of the Light Brigade" Lord Cardigan. Best male corset is "Onegin" worn by Ralph Fiennes, sadly worn incorrectly over bare skin. Kudos for his curl papers! 👍🏻
Well I got one from the old movie
It is from the movie
"Remember the Night" (1940)
The scene is where Barbara Stanwyck's character is being dressed in the character ( Aunt Emma )'s old wedding ensemble
Which does include the corset, but also appears to be all the proper layers, including a bust improver and hip.
Though it may depend on where you watch it the specific scene is at the timestamp:
1:05:00 - 1:07:31
Even though it does show how for example padding was used back then. They still showed through lines and scenes the typical way that historical corsetry ( and historical clothing or I guess "vintage clothing" when the movie was released ) was portrayed in mid-20th century. Hollywood.
For example: Showing Barbara Stanwyck's character still having to grab the bedpost while being laced into the corset and the character Aunt Emma saying lines like:
" When I was young, we thought 19 [inches] was big"
An example regarding historical or "vintage" clothing:
Is how after being laced into the corset, Barbara Stanwyck's character ofcourse is showing that she is out of breath in the corset and was ofcourse remarking "You didn't really wear all these things did you?". When regarding the other layers of undergarments
I don't actually know that one? The clip from the 1940s is from Meet Me in St. Louis
@@SnappyDragon
Oooh, it has soo many things you could of analyzed and relate the video.
Like how the undergarment's were chef's kissed, yet contrast it with their protrayals.
Well I still highly suggest you watch and would love to hear your thoughts when you do.
I think the full movie can be seen online at Ok Ru with the same timestamps I put
24:10 (TW abuse and PTSD) I might not fully have understood your point of view here, but I wanted to add that jewelry or clothing touching certain areas of the body can most definitely trigger flash backs and panic attacks. Scars especially since they can be very sensitive in general. For an example, because of my PTSD I can't wear anything around my wrist including jewelry but also certain long sleeves because it gives me flash backs to being gripped and dragged. That they included this in their script, it sounds like great PTSD representation.
For sure! Without going into too much detail I have personal knowledge to speak from, and I think this scene was very well-written in that regard. My complaint is that having the corset-yanking as part of it, directs the focus away from the otherwise great representation, and onto the tired old corsetry tropes.
Carnival Row has a scene in Ep. 1 where the main fairy is laced into a corset to mainly strap down her wings. From a later glance, it looks like the fairies usually wear bras.
The wings do add another interesting dimension to it!
Re 20:20 "Do tight bras stick to you, like ever?" I have trans-masc irl friends who get skin indentations from their binders when worn too tight. Heads up from my bros to trans-mascs on youtube: just like with a corset, wear an undershirt, and if you feel "pinching" during the day or pain at the end of the day then it's too darn tight! The undershirt will help with smoothing the chest-line for you, and it'll prevent the velcro-itch. Corsets and binders are both there to shuffle around your body fat, not eliminate it. So bind safely, you lovely guys gals and nonbinary pals!!!
I'm a straight male in my 40's but I love your channel. I worked in retail in my 20's and sold high end mens and sometimes women's clothing and even women's lingerie but unfortunately we were next to a Catholic Convent and the Nuns knew I was a Catholic and former Alter Boy and they loved to come in and embarrass me. I never lost my love of dressing well in nice fashion and I earned my Masters in Military History so your channel just really appeals to me.
I 100% get lines from bras. They are still more comfortable than not wearing one.
Yuuuup. Lines do not automatically = torture, they're just a thing that happens.
I've always thought that how comfortable someone finds corsets and/or bras must be as dependent on the level of support they need as what they are used to/their preferences re: things tight on the body.
Excellent discussion of corset clichés! 👏🏻 My main beef is the corset/stays with no chemise underneath.
The Marvelous Mrs. Maizel scene looks to me like she's wearing either a longline bra with a girdle or a thing I think they called a corsolette which was like a longer longline bra with an open bottom that ended at the hip and had garters. As an older person who was a small child in the early 60s (as in I remember when my mom transitioned from gartered girdles and stockings to pantyhose. L'eggs, anyone?), it was my understanding (from popular culture of the time) that clothing that didn't allow a female-identified character to sit was not because of the undergarments, but rather the outer garment that either was actually that constricting or would tear like tissue paper if the wearer tried to sit normally.
Also, my husband and I have worked at Renaissance festivals ever since we met. He has ever been every bodice-wearer's first choice for lacing help precisely because he understands that tight lacing* DOES NOT require yanking or aggressive pulling of the laces and thus also doesn't require the wearer to hang on to bedposts or trees or anything else (and good luck with that when you're wearing a front-laced bodice!). I've seen him get some pretty impressive cleavage on a lanky young man, he's that good and NO yanking!
*Yes, nearly all the female-identifying Ren faire workers are working with some discomfort, me included.
Ugh! I just can’t get past the corset/tight lace scene from Baz Luhrmann’s Romeo and Juliet…. I know that whole movie was ‘a choice’ but that scene was awful.
The scene from "The Alienist" made me think of a scene in "Their Eyes Were Watching God". Halle Berry is peeled out of a dress, with barely covered metal boning, that has left red marks on her skin
To argue on behalf of Titanic, I appreciate that it's the mom doing it specifically, taking over for a lady's maid who had been lacing her up to what was probably more in like with Edwardian standards. Her mom takes over to punish her. Her mom is also probably of an age where tighter lacing WAS in vogue when she was in her prime, about 20 years prior. She knows it sucks, and she's doing it on purpose.
One of my favorite things about costuming in film is thinking about previous fashions and how they relate to the characters in the movie. Sometimes it feels like they're mixing fashions due to lack of knowledge, but it can be fun to muse on whether a particular character just has a dated wardrobe, because maybe fashion isn't important to them, or they're wearing handmedowns, and so on. It's especially fun for older characters.
I loved corsage (2022) because of how they portrayed sisi and her tight lacing. There was two scenes the first one you showed and a later one where the first maid tightens and ties her corset and sisi disapproves because its not tight enough and calls for someone else. She even insults the first maid the second time. The effects of tight lacing is also shown later on by Sisi's lady in waiting is pretending to be her in a formal presentation and she has to rush out and is nauseous and uncomfortable by the way Sisi has her corset.
Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day would be a great one for you to take a look at. It is set in London just before WW2 and one of the characters designs women's lingerie.
Ooh, interesting!
I love this movie!
@@KateandBree It's such a great movie and the costumes are gorgeous! I don't know how historically accurate they are, but they're gorgeous!
I'm happy if they just put a layer of cloth under the corset! Every other corset inaccuracy mostly gets an eyeroll or ignored because there are just some people perfectly okay with sticking to the myths, but that one really bothers me, simply because it's the most basic fact about corsets ever. You see it in all the fashion plates and stuff...to not be wearing something under a corset is just a lazy omission.
That being said, I do appreciate a corset or a set of stays that look well constructed, rather than something that is more cheap Halloween costume quality; I have very little knowledge of what each period is supposed to look like, but I've been known to pause and rewind in order to admire fabric and seams and such. Even if it doesn't match the period, it still gets a thumbs up if it's a good attempt. I like it when they get the underwear right or mostly right; don't ask me why, I guess it's because in order to get the appropriate silhouette, you need the appropriate foundation...and that's in the underwear, and there's something satisfying about well crafted underwear. Or something like that. I mean, who doesn't love lace and petticoats and stuff?
The idea of ripping silk (intentionally or otherwise) is somewhat jarring to me, possibly because it's costly material.
Murdoch Mysteries did a corset killer episode but what I loved about it is that Dr Odgen said she has worn a corset for years and has never had an experience like that before
9:40 I’m pretty sure 1850 is at the tail end or even passed the romantic era. Why are you talking about the regency period??