I wish we had better modern rules about not being always available for communication, not responding, as ell as demands on time socially. It seems that digital everything making it technically easier has created a seeming entitlement to people’s attention and time.
@@ragnkjafor sure. I'm happy the internet exists (it makes learning SO much easier, among many other advantages), but I could really do without the expectation of always being on call. If I wanted to feel like I was always on standby, I'd have continued the family tradition of becoming firefighters. Nobody needs me to answer within 10 minutes of their email; the computer isn't going to explode if I just answer it during business hours when I've got a moment to do so.
I have my own set rules. I'm not always available. If I don't feel like it I don't answer/ reply until I do. Well, unless it's someone like the taxman😜
Pro-tip: Tell your family and friends that you don’t always keep your phone on you or on since you don’t want to be leashed and want to be able to focus on whatever you’re doing in person that meeds attention (this could be a watching a movie, reading a book, taking a nap, literally anything at all), and will get back to them as soon as practical. And then enforce it. At first they might feel you’re ignoring them, but they’ll get used to it. And about the whole “you left me on read” thing? That is annoying, so I tell people that I have my messages stuff set up on different devices and one might end up showing it as read, and this isn’t me ignoring them. That did happen with a message my daughter sent-I really didn’t see it since my computer was on at home. But I might just be ignoring them until later, but it doesn’t feel good to be told that, so I don’t say that. Treat and say to other how you want to be treated and spoken to, right? Regarding emails and such, I have everyone in my sphere used to be not replying outside of M-F business hours, and I’m honest about how I need a chance to disconnect, and if something is urgent, to CALL me. Not message. Call. My daughter and husband are the only exceptions to these rules. Life’s a lot easier when people learn not to expect a reply right away, and not to take it so personally. It’s 100% find to put boundaries like this in place, and it’s good for you.
The last part of the video made me think of the signs in public transports that often say "give your seat to a pregnant woman or an elder person if you're able", or "don't put your feet on a seat", or "don't blast loud music". It's funny, I never saw them as "contemporary etiquette", just as "don't be a jerk to everyone around you"
Honestly? I wish this was the basis of all etiquette. I grew up with a vaguely pan-pagan mother who taught me "do as you will, harm no one" and it stuck with me philosophically. When I do something, I ask myself to conceptualise the functional harm it could do, and it's served me pretty well aside from ocassional brushes with being "rude" by wearing a hat/opening an umbrella indoors (for practical reasons) or like swapping my cutlery between hands from the place setting due to being left handed (this was a weird thing to be offended by? The alternative is risking me fumbling the tools)
I saw those in Germany. They were an appeal to kindness and courtesy. We don't have that approach in the US--just designated "disabled person" seating.
Yes this is the norm in the UK too, on public transport. It's considered rude to not give your seat for someone elderly or pregnant or who you can tell needs the seat (e.g. walking cane/stick).
@@ElegantHamster-d7s in NYC there are signs by the disability priority seats on the buses that do appeal to kindess and courtesy. i forget the wording though
Someone said to me that the underlying reason for etiquette has to do with helping people feel at ease , not stressed or uncomfortable. When i heard that idea it struck me as profound or at least worthy and valuable. Its about helping and having respect for others
This is actually a really good take, and an explanation for why so much traditional etiquette is frustrating, a lot of it operates on the assumption and generalisation of what people find comfortable instead of just asking. And prioritises the comfort of certain people over others. (Consider how it is "rude" to discuss salaries with coworkers...why is that exactly? Ideally, shouldn't it be rather equal, and isn't the way or correcting it if it isn't, discussing that fact...)
Same! Not to be that person, because I have my bad streaks as well, but I often feel like people around me forgot there is a good reason for having a certain degree of etiquette! The way some of my friends are almost shouting level of loud when we are in restaurants or public transport cringes me out soooo much. I keep telling them to be more quiet but they dont care. Just one example…
I heard recently why giving a tip in Japan is rude. It's from something very many years ago (possibly hundreds, I forget) In the past when travelling one would stay at an inn overnight, where one would have a meal before going to bed. Money left for the server was payment for them to spend the night with you. It's now obvious why giving tips became considered very rude.
As someone with autism, having etiquette not explicitly explained to me is where a lot of my social anxiety comes from: I don’t know what to expect in certain interactions. Also, LOVE the blouse Nicole is wearing in this
I came here to say exactly this. As an autistic person, I’m constantly in trouble for trespassing upon the unwritten rules of society. I love etiquette because it’s actually *written down*, and gives me a better chance at surviving life than without it.
Even without autism, it’s normal to have anxiety in social situations. When we don’t want to offend people, but also don’t know what manners they expect, we’re going to risk offending them on accident. And with the internet today, we run the risk of someone blasting us on social media for not realizing they wanted this thing to be that way and how dare we not know that blah blah etc. So your reaction and feelings are actually 100% normal. It’s not an autism thing. It’s a normal human thing because who the fuck knows what to expect anymore?
I spent years just devouring etiquette manuals. Intuiting the right behaviour in social situations is something autistic people often struggle with much more than neurotypical people, so it was literally like finding the rule book to life.
There was this post on reddit that I saw ages ago- the person wanted to go to Subway for the first time but had bad anxiety. So someone else explained every part of it- gave links to the list of breads and the menu, explained how to create something completely off-menu, explained sizes of breads/flatbreads/non-sandwiches, what the options for veg. and condiments are, chip/cookie options, and basically every little thing. Most of etiquette books were basically doing that- give you the complete available options as if someone had never done anything similar. Sometimes they failed but that was what they were attempting to do.
Oh gosh I love coming across social media posts like this. Even if I don't need them personally I'm so glad there are people willing to take the time and do it for others
I was going to bring that one up, but you did already! Another one I've seen is someone explaining the difference of text language for different generations to their older relatives. Such as using ... older folks might use it to divide ideas, but to younger folks it has negative associations. In summary it was that an older relative might be asking how your friend is, and you could interpret it as a declaration of war against your choices of friends. That's really paraphrased and from memory, but I hope you get the gist. Effectively, punctuation saves lives!
I work in a grocery store deli and I have a little "onboarding" session with the teenaged new-hires very similar to this. First job, for some of them. Never cleaned a dish before in their lives, for some of them. Never talked directly to unrelated, non-teacher adults before, for some of them. And every single one of them had to be shown how to use the telephone-based store pager, the "script" to follow when making a page, and HOW TO HANG UP WITHOUT CRASHING THE HANDSET DOWN ON THE LOUDSPEAKERS. And how to take a phone call and what to say. And how to put that call on hold before shouting across the deli for me. And how to pick it back up because I am up to my elbows in feta and cream cheese. I use role-playing and shift debriefs, especially when a coworker says the customers asked personal questions, and it turns out it was just somebody my age making smalltalk (and sometimes someone my age being very inappropriate, and I let them know their instincts were sharp, and what to do about it without getting a write-up). Also, how to use a J-cloth and get their hands soapy when they're washing stuff up. I can tell when they're just wiping the sample plates with a spritz of sanitizer and a dry paper towel.
One thing I love about the internet is that people can share their experiences and info and guide others, the first time I traveled to a neighbor country looking up for information to what to expect really helped my anxiety and the same goes to the smaller examples as you wrote
Honestly I like etiquette and manners... Life is easier when there are some rules or at least guidelines for some things - like queueing, greeting, visiting someone and dining. Makes me feel like every day is special. I like dressing up too.
Thank God for social media ■ where collective information for setting up a standard against narcissism can be established in a narrow time frame; where in the [p]ass most suffered at the behavior and words of others till death. M
Agreed. I'm fundamentally a chaotic being and these little rules help me navigate society. Plus I see it as an opportunity to show respect to my loved ones and strangers alike.
One of the commentaries on neurodivergent people in history and their lack of visible representation is that in the past society was less difficult to navigate with many of the mild to moderate cases that stand out more strongly today. I think etiquette books must have served as a historical accommodation (though unintentional) for those of us that have difficulty with social rules and norms. Unsure how to behave in a situation or what to expect, here's a detailed written account.
@@simonestreeter1518 Neurodivergent means that your brain differs from the statistical average "typical" brain for your demographic category. I can't give you an extensive list (I didn't memorize those alas, I need the space for victorian sci-fi space colony tropes right now) but off the top of my head, it includes, but is not limited to: - autism spectrum - ADD & ADHD - PTSD and C-PTSD - DID - bipolar disorder - borderline personality disorder - antisocial personality disorder - learning disabilities - brain damage from various causes - synesthesia - OCD etc Essentially your brain either wasn't wired standard, or through some circumstances, was forced to adapt to something that isn't a brain's usual state of processing, which makes it harder to process, predict and act in the way(s) set as a social standard, leading to unexpected or eccentric reactions compared to the assumption held up as a social norm.
One of the instructions noted in an etiquette book was, "...do not engage in violent arguments during dinner." I have several relatives to whom that information would be invaluable to make part of their participation in family gatherings.👀
I love how you explain this! As a small town Canadian, you ALWAYS smile, slightly nod your head, and say a soft "hi" or "good morning" to EVERYONE you pass when you're out walking whether you know them or not. In town, you smile and nod to anyone you make eye contact with. My Irish husband took me home to Cork City and had to explain to me not to just start chatting with people in line at the grocery store, be so profuse with my thanks everytime a waitress came to the table, or smile at strangers on the road. I felt SO RUDE, but was in a different place with different rules that I hadn't grown up with.
In South Africa, it is the same. You greet and smile at everyone on the street as you pass thrm or walk through doorways, strangers or not. It's very rude if you don't. Overseas I almost got arrested for bring friendly. Broke my heart.
In small-town and rural Ireland, we do the same friendly gestures you mentioned! It's just in the more populated areas that it's not really done. I'm always surprised every time I visit a city-- or even a larger town-- and people look at you like you're a crazy person for acknowledging them with the 'smile-and-incline' lmao 😅
"Keep your necessities in your carry-on" is so accurate. Also, recommendation: put a change of clothes in a ziplock at the bottom of your backpack just in case your checked baggage gets lost or you spill something on your flight/train ride. It's good to have on hand.
I always suggest a pair of "scrubs" as an emergency back up. They are generally available cheaply 2nd hand, fit a wide range of sizes, can be used as sleepwear in a pinch, but they are very informal. They pack down very flat, though they do wrinkle a bit.
Women's hats have been traditionally been purely decorative (accessory, ornamentation), Men's hats are more practical and functional (outerwear), thus, like coats, should come off- except at the live theater or cinema ( both indoor spaces), where everyones hat should come off.
Having more specifically explained manuals would also be useful for neurodivergent folks who might have a harder time picking up on subtle cues about what to do and what to say in various situations. Not knowing what to expect or do or say can cause a lot of anxiety about misunderstandings that would be alleviated a lot by reading about what to do beforehand. I've seen being neurodivergent in neurotypical society as feeling like everyone else has read a manual that you don't have. But what if you did have one!
As a moderately functional autistic... The very idea that we don't need books is kind of a problem. The amount of things that they assume we will just figure out by watching people gets very very frustrating.
As a trilingual autistic person, yes, and thrice yes! What I’ve learned is polite in Norway isn’t necessarily the same as what’s polite in an English- or German-speaking country.
I have ADHD, and yeah, this absolutely tracks. I think a big chunk of my social awareness comes from an early fascination with etiquette (one of my earliest special interests was history, and I got really interested in the history of etiquette as a kid); I'd read old etiquette books to see how society worked, and I'd apply as much as I feasibly could to my own life because it was fun. I actually had a neighborhood friend basically give me a small finishing school when I started public school (I was homeschooled until 4th grade and didn't know all the social rules of attending public school, so I got bullied). She taught me some of the social rules about asking other kids to play, how much to talk at lunch while still managing to eat, what would be considered weird to wear to school, and what kinds of recess games might be considered weird (nobody really wanted to pretend to be Mesopotamian farmers at recess with me). We drifted apart in interests as we got older, and eventually I moved out of the neighborhood, but I still really value that she took time to teach me the unspoken rules of public school, because learning them really helped me feel more comfortable as I settled into my school, and helped me a lot later when I had to move schools.
I encountered an international etiquette encyclopedia of a sort years ago and learned I was being a massively offensive jerk to my best friend’s mother (I failed to accept food when offered on more than once). Huge change to the relationship dynamics. I went from “Oh, him again…?” to mom asking after my health, even now, years later. Also, the food, incredible. I was so dumb to have “politely declined” even after already having eaten.
Food etiquette is fascinating. In some cultures not feeding your guests is the worst breach of etiquette, so if you turn down food then you're denying your host the ability to be polite. (Of course, sometimes you will get the food anyway, with a politely passive-aggressive "in case you change your mind") To get more complicated, in some of these cultures you won't get a second offer, but in others it's polite to turn down the first offer and accept on the second or third. And then you get some cultures where it's polite to offer food or drink but not polite to take it, which is the most confusing to me, and probably infinite variations.
This custom is one I understand (my culture very much has this), but it is so hard to deal with when you have allergies. I can't just eat anything. Literally, I have a completely separate kitchen from my housemates to avoid cross-contamination of my allergens. But that's not something I want to explain to every person I meet. So I often avoid such social situations entirely, instead.
@@MeMe-Moi bullshit social norms interfering with things disabled people physically cannot do feels like an unsolvable problem of human existence. There are too many unsolvable problems of human existence, like the fact that creating new humans is life-threatening deadly torture for the existing humans the new humans come out of. I hate being human and I hate being alive.
I saw something like this online somewhere: No etiquette book has ever said do not piss on someone else's glass. Anything that someone has "forbidden" in an etiquette manual is something people are doing. Sometimes etiquette "orders" are just the author offering a decision on a situation where there are multiple possible choices. I have seen the author specifically say in a manual from the 20s "if you must have someone decide for you why not..." I've also seen a victorian etiquette manual that said that if you behave as if what you did is correct most people will assume it is, and if you are hesitant others will wonder if it was right even if its what they would do.
I don’t know if people do this where you are but where I live people, for some god forsaken reason, max their car stereos and open their windows polluting the streets not just with their exhaust but also with their noise. I hate it.
This is reminding me of how "Downton Abbey" had a historian/consultant on the set for every season, Alistair Bruce (?) nicknamed by the production "The Oracle", who had to instruct both cast and crew on the proper etiquette of being in public and especially table manners. A behind the scenes feature showed him giving pointers to Laura Carmichael on how, as an upper class woman, how to sit at the dining table, and when to remove her gloves.
I remember seeing that too! The rule that stuck out to me was that under no circumstances should the sisters rest against the backs of a chair in front of their grandmother.
@@CassiBlack I do reenactments and one of my costumes uses a heavy duty corset. It's surprisingly easy to never rest against the chair if I have it on, the corset functions as a prop up. And on the other hand, if I lean back on a chair, the getting up is very awkward due to it. So I bet this rule is for the grandmother's sensibilities benefit, because the change in corsetry made it obsolente for younger generation.
I think it was Mr Bruce that I saw on one of _Wired_ Q&A videos. I think it was he who explained that "no elbows on the table" came down from Medieval times when long tables were assembled from boards laid on top of sawhorses. If somebody heavily leaned on the table with their elbows, they could easily flip the board over and the food would fly. Now it's about keeping your forearms unstained.
Etiquette is one of my favorite things to research, I think it's so interesting to see the small differences between books and different regions! Won't lie, I wish they still made etiquette books like they did. As an autistic person, it would be SO helpful to know what people expect of me instead of having to guess
YES!!! I have ADHD, and history has been a special interest of mine since I was a kid. One of the first bits of domestic history I got very interested in was etiquette; I loved the idea of having a nice, simple code I could refer back to, instead of flailing around for the answers and looking like a fool. It made me feel really competent when I memorised something from an etiquette book, like I was learning the hidden language of functioning in society (and, reading about etiquette from societies very far from me in time and space has always interested me for similar reasons, as well as offering a great window into the day to day experiences of life in another culture). I wish there were still etiquette books being commonly written about the modern era, because I'm pretty confused by a lot of this stuff!!
@@madscientistenby9572 *Boswell Sisyō* (viz., Sandra Boswell MA) *explains protocol in detail in the book **_Protocol Matters: Cultivating Social Graces in Christian Homes and Schools_** (Moscow, ID, USA: Canon Press, 2007).* As the first autist in the 東宣北米神聖教會 OMS (viz., Oriental Missionary Society) Holiness Church of North America, I take protocol in a Japanese take, viz., with suffixes rather than prefixes - at 胡桃河町日系油童教會 Japanese Christian Church of Walnut Creek (CA, USA), a member Congregation of said OMS Holiness Church of North America, I've decided to take the job of Disability Assistant, which requires training above and beyond Boswell Sisyō's mandates.
I think the biggest problem is that the people who most need an etiquette manual are the least likely to read one. People going through life with good intentions toward others usually do well enough.
@@cheerpoasting I beg your pardon. Autistic people might not always understand social etiquette but I think they are the most likely to read books on the subject once they become aware of their lack of understanding.
an exception to this is autistic people, most of us would *kill* for a list of rules for how to behave in social situations that everyone mostly agrees is “correct”
I am guilty of the "Yankee scrunch" a quick weird little smile when you make eye contact with people in public. I find it off putting when you look at some and they just have a blank stare that goes right through you.
As a grocery store employee I do that for every customer I pass by who is close enough to see but not so close as to say "Hello" to without raising my voice.
@@katieserra6492same! Did you see that moment in social media where people of color were talking about people doing that to them? It looked strained or disingenuous, so they assumed it was due to prejudice, like, "Ew." Only to realize, for once at least, they were just being included in our weird customs. I just found it so funny because it does seem fake from an outside perspective 😂
I would argue that we actually are really lacking in rules for clothing, especially women's clothing. I have been to various presentations on going to conferences, interviewing for jobs, etc. where the question of clothing comes up and the answer generally tends to be the levels of formality in men's business clothing are mostly determined by the presence or absence of blazers and ties, but nobody actually knows what the hell the rules are for women. Business casual clothing for women is a giant mystery.
They seem to still exist, but most of the ones I found were aimed at business or super formal stuff. Even just a book full of everyday useful responses would be something!
I actually saw one years ago, targeted at autistic children. It had a wide range of advice, my favourite being, when using a public urinary, keep your pants on. Not knowing that one sure would make things awkward I'd imagine
They're recommending that autistic kids take acting classes now because it teaches social norms and gives them a place to practice that is nonjudgemental.
I don't think it's reasonable to try and dictate people's walking speed. That's just ableist. If you are in a hurry, it's perfectly reasonable to just pass the person blocking your way, no?
@@JustSaraliusFor a singular person what you’re saying is reasonable but if there are more than one slow walker and if they’re blocking the road with other things like strollers mentioned in the original comment, I think even if we can’t dictate their behaviour we can shame those block the sidewalk and inconvenience everyone else.
@JustSaralius im more talking about the people who don't pay attention to their surroundings and block walkways like with a stroller or a big group or standing in the middle of a walkway. If you're walking slow but keep to the side that's fine.
Tell me you ain't got a hip deformity without telling me you ain't got a hip deformity... Ja know, I'd rather live in a world where people didn't assume I conjured a magical limp on purpose 🙄
I heard somewhere that etiquette is really about being conscious and considerate about yourself and those around you and I really like thinking about it that way.
My favorite Jane Austen quote: “Manners is what holds a society together. At bottom, propriety is concern for other people. When that goes out the window, the gates of hell are shortly opened and ignorance is King.” ― Jane Austen
@@lunavanbutterfly1594 It is indeed an observation, however I don't recognize it as a quote from one of her books, nor the personal letters of hers that I have read.
I always liked the way the movie Blast from the Past explained the reason for manners and etiquette. It wasn’t to make ppl appear superior. It is meant to make those around you feel comfortable and valued. Always thought that was a wholesome way to think about it
28:20 reminds me of the time when i was at a thrift store with two girls i was watching. They were trying on "fancy" grown-up dresses, and I found myself having to explain the difference between "date nice" vs. something you would wear to a corporate job interview.
I love the idea of "walk throughs" for things like traveling and the opera. I am the sort of person who gets a bit anxious in new situation and this sort of info sounds comforting
I really laughed at the idea of the Dude giving a death stare while holding their hat aloft or someone waving their hat around while screaming WOW. What an image.
I am so glad you posted this video today. Wired just posted a video on etiquette a few days ago and the etiquette expertly completely failed at actually answering the question "Why does etiquette matter?" His answer was just "no one is exempt from etiquette," which isn't wrong, but doesn't answer why. Your video does a much better job at explaining why it matters and how certain rules came about! Thank you!
Oh, geez. It's laid out pretty well in most of the manuals, even! It's not some silly set of rules, it's just making sure it's nice and clear what will be a bother to other people. Sometimes we just need it spelled out! We just call it "life skills" today.
@@NicoleRudolph Exactly! I know the common sentiment today is that etiquette is a bunch of silly gate-keeping rules imposed by the rich, but that's just not true. I actually think we should go back to teaching etiquette because it's really mostly about how to be considerate to others, and I think we all need to remember that our actions do impact others and it is better for everyone to foster a kind and considerate world.
Is that the one that said we shouldn’t scoop our peas, but mash them with our fork? I’m going to continue my uncouth American ways and scoop my peas so I can pop ‘em in my mouth 😅
It may sound odd, but in the late 80's / early 90's, I attended finishing school. It was essentially etiquette training and acceptable fashion. I loved it, and I wish they were more available now. In '82 and '83 I was in middle school, and we learned some basic etiquette in home economics class, but tge finishing school was an in depth learning experience, and I still use most of what I've learned there.
@susanstewart1402 Those were important! How to sit properly in an above-the-knee skirt, and how to quickly fix a loose hem or stocking run with clear nail polish... so many small but significant things were learned!
I did a finishing course in the mid 2000s when I was in school. Everyone in my father's family had always had etiquette classes so it was just expected. I'm not a very casual person and so I wish it were more common because I think most people are far too overly familiar.
@LadyxBleu I am pleased that you had the ability to attend such a course. I often feel that people think there are fewer boundaries, and crossing those few have no consequence. I think some countries may still offer basic etiquette training to young girls in middle school years, but I don't know any that offer to young boys. I can recall fairly recently seeing a woman teaching young girls in uniform, of a middle school age, how to use cutlery, and present themselves at table. I wish all schools would teach all children, at the very least, basic etiquette, as well as simple home training, which is also rather lacking in current generations. I'm not saying people should return to inequalities, just that they should have basic knowledge, manners, and respect, and they should know how and when to implement them.
I think the boys need some etiquette training because part of the reason some ladies don't wanna follow it is because dudes just do whatever they want. And who wants to be a lady when there are no gentlemen around? Lots of girls are still taught to be ladies but boys are just left to barbarism, when they too should have the education of presenting as a gentleman.
I honestly love the idea of having set guidelines on how to interact with the world and other people. I get so stressed trying to figure out social situations that it honestly keeps me from going to places or enjoying myself. I spend hours before events trying to figure out what to wear, what to bring, what to expect, where to sit, how to interact, where to park, etc. My neurodivergent self would love it if etiquette was more common now (as long as it were never exclusionary).
If it makes you feel better, you're not divergent at all, just like most people who are afraid of making fools of themselves or offending someone because they can't read minds. I find it bad manners to give yourself a new label that implies you are set apart from everyone else and need special treatment. If it doesn't make you feel better, maybe it is because you want to be special and can't figure out a better way.
What a beautiful job you’ve done here of bringing the “outdated” concept of etiquette forward in time and showing how much it’s still relevant today. Loved this video!
Honestly, if people would just say I'm sorry, when they notice doing something that inconvenience someone (anyone) else, and then change the way they do things. Life would be that much more enjoyable.
I like this idea, but I have a feeling certain people would take advantage of it. But hey I work with the public, and gotta yelled at for literally doing my job. Or called a bitch for simply existing in a space.
Unfortunately "inconvenience" is extremely relative, both culturally and personally. I think the golden rule of "do unto others as you would have done to you" is as close as we'll ever get to something like a universal standard of etiquette but even that can be manipulated.
I was OBSESSED with etiquette as a little kid (it was one of my first domestic history interests), and I've often wished there were etiquette books written for the modern era. I find it so useful to just be told plainly all the weird little rules of how to be polite in society, because I'm really, REALLY bad at guessing that kind of stuff, and having a list to check against makes me feel like I'm not just flailing around. A lot of Victorian etiquette is now fairly silly or outdated, but it's fascinating to learn it for its own sake. I wish I could find more etiquette guides from other time periods and society (I wanna know about Mesopotamian table manners); one that I read from medieval Europe (I'm afraid I can't remember the title or when it was written, but I *think* it was a 14th century English book) has a particular gem of advice that's stuck in my head: don't blow your nose at the table, and whenever you do blow your nose, don't spend a minute looking at the handkerchief like jewels just fell out of your head. It just cracks me up, because nearly EVERYONE I know disregards the second part and looks into their handkerchief or tissue like "Wow :o" when they blow their noses!
I really love your intro. I studied intercultural communication and if I had a nickel for every time I've had to tell someone that the person they're mad at for a breach of etiquette...was actually being polite to them...I'd have so many $%@#&ng nickels.
The rules of modesty change with the times 🤷♀️ I’m glad I’m not expected to follow the rules of 100 years ago. The torn clothing though … I hate to buy something that’s already halfway worn out 😅
One of my favorite chapters in "Little Women" is "Calls", where Amy and Jo go out visiting to return visits from others to their own home. The start of the chapter details how Amy prompts and begs Jo to properly prepare herself for this outing. It's fun, character detailing, and informative.
Some of the most important etiquette rules my mom taught me are: 1. You do not leave the price tag on gifts. You don't tell the person how much you paid for said gift nor do you ask how much they paid for the gift they give you. Gifts are from the heart. 2. Dont tell anyone how much you make, don't brag abt your income, don't flaunt how much you have. Nobody likes a show-off. Also do not ask ppl how much they make and don't judge them by their material goods. Judge ppl by their character. 3. Don't talk abt going on vacation to strangers. Don't let anyone know when you won't be home. Asking for time off from work is fine, but keep that betwen yuu and those that matter (HR, your boss) and WHERE you go or what you'll be doing during YOUR time off is NOBODY'S BUSINESS.
#2 I think is changing within certain industries as we try to make sure that we are compensated fairly for our work but I definitely remember being told it a lot when I was younger. #3 is really interesting to me because it seems like a cross between safety and being humble.
I think not discussing how much you make with coworkers only benefits the employer. I once started discussing salary with coworkers at a workplace. It lead to everyone realizing the white/asain employees were getting paid way more than the black/latinx employees. Also, some of the money that went to our paycheck was from federal grants, the amount the business received was available to see publicly, after discussing salary we realized the owner was pocketing some of the grant money.
I think second be needs modifications, especially in the workplace. Not knowing what your coworkers make lessens the bargaining power you have, unfortunately.
2 is a good rule for protecting your interests around people who are seeking to take advantage of you and 3 is also a good rule for safety when you’re trying to make sure nobody breaks into your house.
I take issue with #2. It is what causes wage theft for minorities. I discovered that I was being paid literally HALF that of a male colleague with far less experience and no degree in the exact same role as a result of discussing wages. Sure, don't brag about your wage if you are fortunate, but I believe it is important to be truthful if asked by a peer who you believe should be earning equal to yourself.
I was taught that the reason knife blades face the plates on an appropriately set table was a gentle reminder that the knives were for the food and not one's dinner companions.
I have my grandmother's etiquette book by Emily Post from the late 1930's. I absolutely love it! It's massive. My favorite part is the detailed explanation for household livery. I'll never use that part, but I love reading it.
My brothers got "Boy's Life" magazine when we were children(I was born in 1956). There was a cartoon every month of two little boys. One did things right. The other was a jerk. I can't remember their names and it was drawn to be funny. We loved it! Some were situations we never met, nor did we expect to. Others were just a reinforcement of the manners we were taught at home.
Boy's life (Now Scout Life) is still around as the US Scouting magazine. The two boys may have been the Tracy twins. or they could be Dink and Duff. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Life Although, judging by the wiki, it sound like its full of ads and very odd reviews now. From the wiki "the version of Boys' Life geared towards older boys features buying guides for products such as cars, MP3 players, digital cameras, sunglasses, and more".
lol we loved those too but we always made fun of Gallant for being a fancy pants nerd, and then we’d come up with increasingly absurd Goofus things. It’d be like “Gallant asks a dog’s owner before he pets their dog” and we’d be like “Goofus steals their dog” 😂 i wonder if victorians would make fun of these etiquette books too. I bet people in lower classes would make fun of them a lot
Back in the 1950s when we immigrated to Canada we got a book, i still have it, describing the proper Canadian etiquette, what to feed people, how to use the public transit, common phrases when shopping. The thing which struck me most was the food section, don't serve porridge of any sort except as breakfast. At the time semolina porridge with fruit sauce was a very common dutch dessert and now it was forbidden. When i was 16 i was invited to supper at my English boyfriend's family, i made the mistake of cutting my bread roll instead of tearing it and thereby showing i was too low class for his family to accept.
@@SewlockHolmes The tearing vs cutting bread gets wild when applied to other types of bread, due to translation issues. If some French person tells me that a bread *has to* be torn, I'm giving them a three pound loaf of half-rye sourdough, as this is common bread around where I live, and watch. With popcorn.
@@lenkamaresova4116I suppose that’s why it “isn’t done” to cut your bread in high society: That would imply that their bread is hard to tear and therefore low class. Similarly, I learned that in Japan it absolutely isn’t done to scrape your chopsticks against one another to remove splinters, as we do here in the US. That is an insult, because it implies that you think they gave you something that would hurt you! Their manufacturing standards are MUCH higher than here in the US. Being a collectivist society, they care for each other better than in the individualist United States.
Seeing the fact these books used to cover things like 'how to catch a bus' reminds me of something you seen on reddit from time to time where people will often make threads on seemingly 'basic' topics like travelling by train, catching a bus, ordering food etc because we're not necessarily sat down and told how to do these things we're sot of left to figure it out/assume we'd be guided by example. Also some of these rules seem weird until you get the context, like recently i learned the 'no elbows on the table' rule apparently came from sailors because if you eat on a ship you'd often have to put your elbows on the table to stay steady and so if you did that it showed you up as an apparently lower class person.
I have always lived in rural areas. I am TERRIFIED of ever having to use a taxi because I have no clue how they work and have heard many stories of taxi drivers taking advantage of hicks like m.
Another theory is that tables weren't always sturdy, sometimes it was more akin to trestle tables and if you did put your elbows on them, you'd risk tipping the whole thing over. Others argue that it's because guarding your food is something lower class people would do, and taking more space than necessary by putting your elbows around your "allowed space" is considered rude to other people earing around you. The slouched posture is also uncouth.
I've read all of those explanations and others for the "no elbows on the table" rule. But I think the real reason is putting your elbow or elbows on the table crowds the person next to you. I was at a conference lunch once and the man to my right had his left elbow on the table almost constantly. Every time I reached for my glass, I had to reach over his arm. Eventually, I reached for my glass just as he moved his arm, and I ended up with red wine on my blazer, blouse and skirt. It seems no elbows on the table is just a sensible rule for being polite to others.
As an undiagnosed autistic child I was fascinated by etiquette books. I genuinely learned useful things! I wish there were etiquette books for contemporary everyday people. Often those you find are aimed towards rich people or very old bourgeoisie.
I was going to ask. How many of us read any etiquette books we could get ahold of regardless of era, hoping to unlock the mysteries of humanity - now recognize ourselves to be Autistic. I liked Emily Post's 1922 Etiquette. Very: always be kind to everyone, even the staff (but don't suffer actual harm or egregious or repeated disrespect after verifying) and always endeavour to keep clothing in good repair. Almost everything else, she admits can change with fashion, weather, location, and any other variable in existence.
I've seen a lot of etiquette media created by autistic people for other autistic people. it's not books, and it's not centralised, but it's all over redit, youtube, random personal blogs, tictok etc. I've seen "this is what it's like to fly, step by step" and stuff like that. it'd be harder to think of one for really everyday situation. as a thought experiment, I could try to write one for, say, "doing the weekly shop at a UK supermarket" "before you even arrive at the supermarket, it is important to know what it is you will need to buy. we want to avoid at all costs the horror of standing in the middle of an aisle, crowds of fellow shoppers, flickering lights overhead, and the growing realisation that you've forgotten what meals even are. so, we begin with the list. if your working memory is very good, you may not need an actual list every time..." (I'm semi serious. we can write the book)
What you said at the end there about these rules being layed out cleary in black and white " do this, dont do that in X situation in Y environment" was very interesting. It got me thinking that perhaps it contributed to the reason that neuro divergent people went under the radar alot easier back then, as they could learn social cues alot easier and more directly communicated from these manuals.
Due to my father's career manners and etiquette started in the high chair. I still try to practice of how I was raised in the general public. Even though I'm a woman, I will of I'm first at the door I will open the door and allow those who are coming or going through before I cross over. I did this one day and ended up standing 5 minutes as people just poured in and out crushing each other. Instead of opening the second door on the other side and turning it into a two-way street. I had bruised toes and someone managed to step on my heel. Some days it's very hard to keep from saying something exceptionally rude to people like that. When I get done with my marketing I always take the cart either back to the store if it's closer or to one racks instead of leaving it in the middle of the road or in an empty parking spot. My husband asked me one day why I even bothered and I told him because I'm was not going to behave as badly as those around us besides, it only takes a minute. It never hurts to be able to say please and thank you yet that is something that seems not to be in a lot of people's vocabularies. The worst offenders seem to be the people that believe themselves more important or have more money than those around them. I've have news for them they're not.
I am also female, and also hold doors for others ! It is kind of fun when you meet another 'soul' who also holds doors ! I open the first and say "after you!" And they hold the 2nd and say "After YOU!" And we both smile at each other. I've had this happen with men & women. Chivalry is not quite dead, lol !
A fun episode. My mom had etiquette lessons as part of public school classes in the 1930’s. She taught us those lessons when we were little, such as how to manage your skirts on stairs, and had us practice until we could do it gracefully and safely. I never worry about how I look dealing with stairs thanks to my mom. 🙂
As an undiagnosed AuDHD kid, i was OBSESSED with etiquitte books and so mad we didnt have them in modern times because what do you MEAN they had an INSTRUCTION MANUAL on how to be a human in society?!
I learned a lot of basic etiquette from my parents and grandmother - and we were modestly middle-class, not wealthy. (I was a child in the 70s and 80s.) But maybe this means there's a market for some young etiquette tik-tokers. Goodness knows we all need a little more etiquette in the present day.
There are some. Unfortunately they run amok with it. Ie: place blade between tines of fork to indicate you are finished. Said nobody ever. Let’s begin: Shoes and feet stay on the floor at all times. Only exception: private backyards or beach. All electronic wires should be kept harnessed. Do not allow them to interfere with anyone’s personal space. 😆
I'd love some manuals on etiquette especially these days when people travel abroad a lot. As a Korean in western country I catch myself bowing more times than I'd like to admit instead of waving or shaking hands😂
I'm half Asian but was born in Europe. After spending a year in Asia it felt so off and rude to not bow back home. I ended up slowly teaching myself to just nod/bend the head a bit (albeit deeper than people do here) while smiling. It is still more formal that people are used to in Europe but since it's seen as more respectful they generally don't mind
This was fascinating. I love places today that will have signs that spell it out for people. One of my favorites I see occasionally is "We'll start your transaction when you end your call." 😂😂😂
I still write letters, as well as email. I'm 65 years old, and was brought up by my Mum, Aunts and Grandmother. So, I had it drummed into me how I should behave, as a little girl, and as a teenager. I like hearing all about the etiquette from long ago. You are very interesting to watch and listen to! TFS! ~Janet in Canada
When I was a girl, my mom bought me etiquette books all the time! American Girl had a whole series of them in the mid 2000's, and Girl Scouts spent a lot of time discussing etiquette, too. I also did Cotillion in middle school, though those rules were a bit out of date and haven't come in handy much.
My parents made me do cotillion because they were just trying anything for my autism, like complete throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck levels of stuff. I’m pretty sure doing that just made me weirder in the eyes of my peers at the local middle school
@@phoenixfritzinger9185 omg same here, I wasn't diagnosed until I was 20, but my mom kept trying to get me into training for debutante stuff to teach me "how to be more like other girls" haha. She even took me to a beauty queen contest and was offering to pay contestants to take me shopping and be their friend....luckily that didn't work out cause that would have been way too weird
As a someone with social anxiety I would devour the “walk through” section! I’m always searching online on how to do certain things, like ordering at restaurants I have never been to, attending events I have never been to, etc
I took etiquette classes when I was a teenager. It helped me when I was a young adult to figure out what to wear, how to act and how to talk to people when I arrived at an event, function or any gathering. From casual to very formal occasions. It made me less nervous and made me confident to know what could be expected of me. The lesson was primarily about how to be considerate of others and that approach enables you speak and connect with a wide variety of people.
My great grandmother born 1899 sent me to etiquette school for three years, it was two weeks at a time, from age 11 to 14, I actually really enjoyed it and I still use almost everything I learned in everyday life! ❤
A modern example: When my child was 2, we took her to a restaurant. Not her first time at one, but she had recently learned to remove her coat and shoes by herself. When we entered, we took off our coats. Then we looked down and saw our child sitting on the floor taking off her shoes! Because this is the correct etiquette at home (or another house). We had to explain that in a restaurant, we keep our shoes on, which she found confusing. So when I see these books, I feel like they were definitely written for someone who is kind of clueless - maybe they're from a country village and now in London, for example - to help them make sense of their new surrounding culture, and to fit in, and to make a good impression. I can also imagine writing a book describing that we take off our coat but not shoes in a restaurant, and people wondering why we need that kind of info written out - and yet we do. No different than traveling to another country now - especially if it's for work, or to visit someone - and learning that country's etiquette to fit in and make a good impression. A Big City and formal events were kind of like another world to someone from a remote part of the country, even once the railroads came in. It still is - I had to read up about weddings before attending (never attended one as a child) and I know nothing about red carpet etiquette, or VIP ticket holder etiquette, for example. What to do at a music festival? What to do at a military mess dinner (ohhh there's a lot of etiquette there!) What to do at church? A different denomination church? A different religion's services? Etc.
My mom worked as hostess/cashier in a restaurant. People would walk up to the counter talking on their phone and set their bill on the counter. She'd just wait....Finally, "Aren't you going to cash me out?" Mom would smile: "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't want to be rude by interrupting your phone call." Now we have smartphones, and you're lucky if they acknowledge your presence at all.
@@beagleissleeping5359 I hope so ■ sometimes I go out of the house, and later find myself not in "suburban suit;" forgot to put on my mini skirt layer!! Oh well, my husband buys the spandex head to toe for me, and yet I order the 'Petticoats and Bed Gowns'. M
When I worked in retail… cell phones were a real pet peeve… if you ask for my help, then ignore me to have a conversation on your phone … what do you expect me to do…. Stand around waiting on you? I have other work to do🤷🏼♀️
as a cashier at a hardware store, i only mind customers phone calls when there's not a clear break for me to ask if they have a membership card and tell them their total, but that could be my gen Z nature talking. half of the time they're courteous enough to tell the person they're talking to to hold on a second, lol
@@petrifiedangel In the deli we have a whole ritual with getting the slice thickness, confirming the amount, showing the first slice, offering a sample, etc. When someone is on their phone it's highly annoying because we can't serve them correctly when they won't shut up long enough to tell us what they actually want. Of course if we get something wrong because they weren't paying attention when we ask "Half a pound, cut thin?" they complain and blame us.
@mbvoelker8448 I work at a fast food restaurant. We have to ask, "Is everything correct on the screen?" Most everyone automatically answers yes, and I always want to ask, "Is it actually correct or are just saying yes?" 🤣
I wish we valued caring for those around us as much these days! The parts about not stopping in the middle of a walkway... Imagine if they encountered people having loud conversations on speaker phone or blasting music, or "influencers" taking up a whole public area for their "photo shoot" and having the audacity to be annoyed that other people exist around them. Our ancestors would be appalled, as they should!
tbh, we really need to bring back 'don't stand in the middle of the walkway, don't take up space when other people are moving around you' kind of lessons cos hooooo boy going to the grocery store is a nightmare lately. people just parking themselves in the middle of aisles as though they're the only person in the world.
I think the key point is what you say at the beginning. Etiquette always looks odd when written down but we actually already do most of this without thinking twice about it
When I was a little girl in the early 1960s, I was given a book of etiquette called "White Gloves and Party Manners". I get a real kick out of reading it all these years later.
I wish we had a modern rule in the same vein of removing hats: removing sunglasses when meeting someone/talking with someone for the first time and/or conducting business.
@@oechsnea Just remove sunglasses/switch to regular glasses when entering a building unless you have photophobia or a similar reason to still need them inside. If I meet you outside on a bright day, I’m not switching glasses just to talk to you.
@@LadyBoldlyjust coming to say this, as I have those kind of glasses ! They turn fairly quickly when it's warm out, but take longer in the winter. But, with snow, they are fantastic to cut the glare !
I use the diagonal skirt pull for my 13th century clothes, but then tucked into my belt! It's great for shortening the past-ground luxurious hemline while maintaining a nice silhouette than the giant mushroom from blousing.
As someone who wears hats on a daily basis for sun protection, I am surprised how many of the hat etiquette just comes naturally from where you are. I take it off in the elevator because then I can adjust my hat hair in the mirror 😂. But I am often alone there.
I noticed how differently people behave at the breakfast/brunch buffet at a hotel I stayed in. And got confronted with how I myself had a clear idea of what was 'polite' to do - with much reason. Some picked up food for themselves on a plate and ate it at their table. Some picked alot of different things on plates, and brought it to a table to share with their family. Some reused their plates, and some (I) just took a new plate when I went up for another round. Some used the same glas for juice and water, some took a new glas for each drink. Some had a very clear order they ate the food items in; savory and filling and last the sweeter things. Some were very quiet and others talked loudly and again others read books at the table. I think there is alot of etiquette still around today, we just dont talk about it. Being a dane, I especially get how danes can seem very taciturn and almost cold, when in public. Really it is just an unsaid eitquette not to disturb others and respecting others want for quiet. As it might be a bit rude to assume someone else want to smalltalk with a complete stranger. And in alot of other places in the world, it is the complete opposite.
I worked a number of years at a very fancy hotel that had an award winning Cafe with a well attended Brunch. Some of the etiquette was reenforced by the staff ! They regularly swept used dishes & glasses off the tables, and would bring you a fresh orange juice, say. Coffee or tea were the one thing that tended to get refilled. All the buffet tables were staffed and had HUGE piles of clean plates constantly being refilled. The staff was set up at carving stations, and would ask your preferred amount. They would hold it on a fork and knife and ask if it was okay before putting it on your plate. You were free to say, "Oh, just half that, please!" And they would give you the smaller portion. It was such a relaxing vibe, because there was always a staff member clearing a plate, refilling your water or coffee, or just generally helpful. There was also an even fancier French Restaurant there, but I never felt as comfortable dining there ! Lol 😁 That etiquette was a bit too intense ! (And the bill was MUCH higher!)
@@cheerpoasting ... which my European ass only learned during my first US based cruise 😅 I was so used to reusing my buffet plate but when I saw you had to pass the staff every time to get to the actual food, it became clear to me. That was also a thing I've never paid much attention to at all.
I think there is a large population of neurodivergent folks who would LOVE to have more of this stuff explicitly spelled out. What I especially like are versions of etiquette manuals in which the author actually takes the time to explain the *logic* behind various "rules." A lot of people struggle to understand or assimilate rules that are perceived as arbitrary. Understanding that you don't want to accidentally elbow someone's drink, get food on your sleeves, or hinder your neighbors from easily maneuvering their knife and fork is a lot easier to remember and go along with than simply being yelled at to "Keep your elbows off the table!" because it's "rude" according to some faceless authority on "manners." I also wish some things would come back in fashion, such as formal invitations to parties (which you really only see nowadays with kids parties and very formal events like weddings). This whole vaguely talking about the existence of an event and then you're just supposed to infer whether you're actually being invited or they're just rudely talking about something in front of you that doesn't include you... It's exhausting. Just spell it out in speech or text or whatever: "You are invited to x at y time for z activity. Would you like to come." Then the other person is obligated to give an equally clear yes or no answer as to whether they plan to attend, and to update that answer promptly should it change for any reason. I feel like we've gone waaay too far in the opposite direction in terms of the informality of socializing, and people have forgotten that social etiquette actually does actually have a purpose beyond looking uppity. Just a little bit more of a "script" for these things can avoid so many misunderstandings, wasted efforts, and hurt feelings.
It’s kind of depressing that “don’t chew with your mouth open” needed to ever be in a manners book presumably aimed at teens and adults. I don’t know about anyone else, but this was a base level thing that my parents taught me in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.
Yeah but your parents taught you it in elementary school cus it’s a social thing that probably originated during that era. It’s all relative. We shouldn’t eat with our hands but in some south eastern and African countries it’s still perfectly fine.
I remember taking etiquette classes as a young lady. The one rule that tickled me most was the proper way to open a door.. we actually practiced correct body placement, which hand to use to grasp a door handle and how to grasp the handle.
In your discussion at the end of the video on what sorts of situations or types of people would receive disproportionate benefit from having these social norms written down, I kept thinking about autism. I and my autistic peers have frequently complained about "why isn't there a manual for how to exist in society? How did everyone else pick up all these rules that are in no way obvious to us??" So like, while autism wasn't a term or concept used until the mid 20th c, it definitely has existed for at least as long as humans have, and I am 100% sure in the 19th c most literate autistics would have *loved* having etiquette manuals. I can easily imagine some autistics of the time even developing a special interest in the subject!
"They didn't have autism back in the day" no, they just had EXTENSIVE training on how to socialize with one another, with formal rules on things like greetings during a variety of situations.. 👀
In the 1980’s when I was promoted at work to a position of authority I remember paying attention to soap operas to figure out how to introduce two people to each other. But I actually looked up Emily Post in the library to determine the rules for how women shook hands. It was my sense at the time that men always shook hands but not necessarily women.
I wish we had these books again. I get so confused about what to do and what ti say in certain situation. Which degree of politeness to use ect And some people have lost very basic decency these days (looking at people who don't use headphones in trains 😡)
My grandmother on my mother's side still follows some of those old-fashioned rules, and I grew up absorbing a bunch of them, for example the hat thing. I was very aware that "remove your hat inside" was a rule for men and not applicable if you are a woman and the hat is part of your hairdo ; so when I wore a hat at school and got reprimanded because I didn't want to take it off, I was scandalized. Did the hall monitor (well, our local equivalent, I'm not American) know nothing about hat rules ?! I also know how to peel an orange with a knife and a fork, how to set a table "properly", and the most important rule of all : it's very impolite to remark upon someone else's rudeness. That one may be the only one I still consistently follow, but I do get a kick of silently judging people when they are rude in public
There were exceptions to the "no wearing hats inside" rule, it was generally acceptable to wear hats in barns, bars, the public rooms of certain public buildings, and a few others.
Learning the rules of etiquette is so useful if you were raised in an environment where most of your peers don’t worry about those rules. It allows you to move in many more circles. I was so grateful for all the rules of etiquette that my mother taught me. They definitely came in handy as I got older and began to move around to different areas.
7:38 I stopped to read these pages and honestly I’m gonna take this advice 😅 using a cloth instead of some mitts and I don’t think I’ll use borax, but definitely soap, because I never really was that hygienic but now I realize the importance of it if I want to be considered respectable and presentable and clean for my job
I like the part in Emily Post's Etiquette where she says not to look down on people for not knowing the correct etiquette and play along as best as you're comfortable (I think it's in the section on men not extending their hands to women first to shake).
I love that they say "don't feed the dog at the table." So many people have dogs that are very badly behaved around food, and it's all because people feed them from their plates and let them lick their plates. We just never feed the dogs people food, and they pretty much ignore us eating. It's much nicer.
Dogs enjoy variety just like people. Greyhounds are actually fed people food at the track, so I’m not going to stop that. We don’t feed them at the table. We may prepare their food at the same time we prepare ours, but they eat after us in their food bowls in their assigned areas.
My dog will just sit and wait near the table for you to give him something. Unless you’re deliberately making eye contact with him, he won’t bark or fuss for you to give him food. He knows it’s a treat and not something to always be expected
2 things. One, I would LOVE to see someone write a manual of modern etiquette in a flowery Victorian writing style, it'd be hilarious. Two, I had a LARP character for a while who was from the 19th century and was extremely autistic so she obsessed over having proper etiquette because following those scripts was the only way for her to function in high society. And then she ended up in the modern world and Could. Not. Deal. because none of her scripts worked anymore.
Two words: Miss Manners. (A/k/a Judith Martin, a syndicated columnist, who has published several collections of her columns… always in the voice of the personification of Elaborate Etiquette. She is now semi-retired, and her son and daughter are helping to write the column.)
That was brilliant, I've never watched any of your videos before, it just popped up in my feed. Great delivery too - not looking down on rules and practices and a gentle scepticism at the more bizarre rules too. And the way the topics roll on from one another - to stuff. Definitely a new subscriber here.
A second "Thank you" tor this video. I'm currently reading Dickens' “Dombey and Son.” Last night, while reading Chapter 25, there were a couple paragraphs where part would have flown over my head if it weren't for your video. There's a strange character who appears to be obsequious, but is actually malignant and controlling. This dichotomy is shown again in this passage, but I wouldn't have understood how obsequiously he was behaving without seeing the part of your video about hat etiquette. I probably missed other bits earlier in the book, but now I'll keep my eagle eye out for more. 🙂♥️👍
Tbh when an invite arrives saying "smart casual" or "smart" for what to wear, I really wish we did have a book telling us exactly what that means! My smart casual is not the same as someone else's so it always causes people to fret over what EXACTLY they mean!
Sociologist here. I was FASCINATED by these books as a kid! I begged my mom for etiquette classes. IMAGINE the tea parties if I had such knowledge! ANYways Internalizing social expectations we call “socialization”. A big part of this is knowing etiquette. We socialize each other directly (like thru etiquette books) and indirectly by observing people’s behavior in real life. TLDR; I wanna watch a fancy tea party like a zoo exhibit 👀
After studying and training with application to etiquette ■ I learned and established a mannerism that should not offend others; the point was how I would effect others and [n]ot how others would effect myself. M
As an AuDHDer, the part about the walk-throughs of what to do in a new social situation sounds amazing. I would kill for a dress and etiquette guide for starting out in different types of workplaces. I am literally so stressed because I've worked blue collar jobs for years and I'm going into my first office job shortly. Literally, ALL I have to work from is TV and buzz feed articles.
I feel like the ~need~ for etiquette manuals was a lot like our need for makeup tutorials today. There's knowledge that you're supposed to have, but you're not really supposed to ask your friends (because it's supposed to be "effortless," and, I guess, spring fully formed out of your mind), you don't have money to pay someone to teach you, and your parents either don't know or can't teach you, so you turn to a book/TH-cam to fill in the gaps. ... I am slightly too old (and wouldn't have watched them anyway) to have had makeup tutorials when I was a preteen. There are probably other examples too, but that's the first "thing you're just supposed to know, but just don't" thing that came to mind.
I have a son who has ADHD, I'm likely neurodivergent myself (no diagnosis tho), and I gotta say - the MOST frustrating thing about modern etiquette is that lack of strongly worded, written down rules. I can't count the number of times I've stumbled socially and had NO IDEA why everyone was upset. Not least because growing up I didn't actually have access to TV and movies for the most part. All my life I've felt rather like I was raised by wolves, simply because I never learned-by-watching in the way you describe. The same has happened to my son, and I've had to sit and try to explain to him certain aspects of eitquette - AND to explain that no, it doesn't make you a bad person if you don't automatically know these things. Even if your school mates try to tell you such a lie. -.- This topic also reminds me of a section of one of my favorite novels - a historical fantasy set in 1905 California. The heroine has to travel from Chicago to San Francisco, by train, alone. And the details of just how GROSS her walking-skirt is by the time she gets to her destination - and why her clothes have gotten so dirty! - was simply astonishing. I'd never once considered how comfortable and convenient modern travel actually is, you know? Get in your private vehicle, fully enclosed with AC and everything, and go wherever. 1800s? Good luck with getting a ticket to the exact location you need - you're likely to have to settle for "close enough" and then cobble together other transport to get yourself the rest of the way there! Stops are few and far between, and not much in the way of bathroom facilities ON the train (if any at all); food isn't laid on, window glass is not standard, and dust is inescapable... It's a wonder anybody WANTED to travel!
One group of people for whom that kind of detailed, written down etiquette manual would probably still be super useful today: people on the autism spectrum. Do not get me *started* on the sociological hell that is deciphering "business casual", for example. If I could get a printed-out guide saying "This kind of fabric is acceptable, that isn't; you need shoes that are like this, this, or this; don't wear that", I...might have had a much easier time getting and keeping jobs.
business casual involves, generally, khackis or chinos + polo or short sleeve button shirt. Belts and work shoes are the same as for business. For an outdoor event, a hawaiian shirt is likely appropriate, and you can wear boat shoes or fabric tennis shoes(think of things like vans or toms, but in white or cream, perhaps navy). Hawaiian shirts are always untucked. You should not wear a suit jacket or vest. If cold, you should go for a casual/sporty jacket instead of a suit coat or blazer, indoors a sweater is acceptable.
@@melissatrible4214 business casual for skirt wearers usually means polo or short sleeve button shirt + your normal skirt or looser, lighter colored version of the same & boatshoes, or nice sandals, or low heels if indoors. Dresses get iffy so I would generally avoid.
Download Love & Pies here -> pixly.go2cloud.org/SH4O0
I went to the old school. I don't look at my phone while driving, walking, or talking to people. Most of my phone play is done at home
Just wanted to ask what is the book in this video? Thank you! 😊
I wish we had better modern rules about not being always available for communication, not responding, as ell as demands on time socially. It seems that digital everything making it technically easier has created a seeming entitlement to people’s attention and time.
@@LotusesGalaxyOcean
Polite hours for calling on people should apply to phone calls as well!
@@ragnkjafor sure. I'm happy the internet exists (it makes learning SO much easier, among many other advantages), but I could really do without the expectation of always being on call. If I wanted to feel like I was always on standby, I'd have continued the family tradition of becoming firefighters. Nobody needs me to answer within 10 minutes of their email; the computer isn't going to explode if I just answer it during business hours when I've got a moment to do so.
Agreed!
I have my own set rules. I'm not always available. If I don't feel like it I don't answer/ reply until I do. Well, unless it's someone like the taxman😜
Pro-tip: Tell your family and friends that you don’t always keep your phone on you or on since you don’t want to be leashed and want to be able to focus on whatever you’re doing in person that meeds attention (this could be a watching a movie, reading a book, taking a nap, literally anything at all), and will get back to them as soon as practical. And then enforce it. At first they might feel you’re ignoring them, but they’ll get used to it.
And about the whole “you left me on read” thing? That is annoying, so I tell people that I have my messages stuff set up on different devices and one might end up showing it as read, and this isn’t me ignoring them. That did happen with a message my daughter sent-I really didn’t see it since my computer was on at home. But I might just be ignoring them until later, but it doesn’t feel good to be told that, so I don’t say that. Treat and say to other how you want to be treated and spoken to, right?
Regarding emails and such, I have everyone in my sphere used to be not replying outside of M-F business hours, and I’m honest about how I need a chance to disconnect, and if something is urgent, to CALL me. Not message. Call.
My daughter and husband are the only exceptions to these rules.
Life’s a lot easier when people learn not to expect a reply right away, and not to take it so personally. It’s 100% find to put boundaries like this in place, and it’s good for you.
The last part of the video made me think of the signs in public transports that often say "give your seat to a pregnant woman or an elder person if you're able", or "don't put your feet on a seat", or "don't blast loud music". It's funny, I never saw them as "contemporary etiquette", just as "don't be a jerk to everyone around you"
Honestly? I wish this was the basis of all etiquette.
I grew up with a vaguely pan-pagan mother who taught me "do as you will, harm no one" and it stuck with me philosophically.
When I do something, I ask myself to conceptualise the functional harm it could do, and it's served me pretty well aside from ocassional brushes with being "rude" by wearing a hat/opening an umbrella indoors (for practical reasons) or like swapping my cutlery between hands from the place setting due to being left handed (this was a weird thing to be offended by? The alternative is risking me fumbling the tools)
I saw those in Germany. They were an appeal to kindness and courtesy. We don't have that approach in the US--just designated "disabled person" seating.
Yes this is the norm in the UK too, on public transport. It's considered rude to not give your seat for someone elderly or pregnant or who you can tell needs the seat (e.g. walking cane/stick).
@@ElegantHamster-d7s in NYC there are signs by the disability priority seats on the buses that do appeal to kindess and courtesy. i forget the wording though
Native Americans had rules of etiquette. Actions that were thoughtful toward others.
Someone said to me that the underlying reason for etiquette has to do with helping people feel at ease , not stressed or uncomfortable. When i heard that idea it struck me as profound or at least worthy and valuable. Its about helping and having respect for others
I agree. We do have current standards of etiquette, but too many people don't follow them.
This is actually a really good take, and an explanation for why so much traditional etiquette is frustrating, a lot of it operates on the assumption and generalisation of what people find comfortable instead of just asking. And prioritises the comfort of certain people over others. (Consider how it is "rude" to discuss salaries with coworkers...why is that exactly? Ideally, shouldn't it be rather equal, and isn't the way or correcting it if it isn't, discussing that fact...)
Same!
Not to be that person, because I have my bad streaks as well, but I often feel like people around me forgot there is a good reason for having a certain degree of etiquette!
The way some of my friends are almost shouting level of loud when we are in restaurants or public transport cringes me out soooo much. I keep telling them to be more quiet but they dont care. Just one example…
I agree and think this (not having universal rules or standards of etiquette) is where a lot of our anxiety comes from.
I heard recently why giving a tip in Japan is rude. It's from something very many years ago (possibly hundreds, I forget) In the past when travelling one would stay at an inn overnight, where one would have a meal before going to bed. Money left for the server was payment for them to spend the night with you. It's now obvious why giving tips became considered very rude.
As someone with autism, having etiquette not explicitly explained to me is where a lot of my social anxiety comes from: I don’t know what to expect in certain interactions.
Also, LOVE the blouse Nicole is wearing in this
love how all us autistic people in these comments are just bemoaning their lack of existence
Before I was diagnosed as autistic, I took an etiquette class in high school. I loved it, it's so nice to have the rules spelled out for you.
I came here to say exactly this.
As an autistic person, I’m constantly in trouble for trespassing upon the unwritten rules of society. I love etiquette because it’s actually *written down*, and gives me a better chance at surviving life than without it.
Even without autism, it’s normal to have anxiety in social situations. When we don’t want to offend people, but also don’t know what manners they expect, we’re going to risk offending them on accident. And with the internet today, we run the risk of someone blasting us on social media for not realizing they wanted this thing to be that way and how dare we not know that blah blah etc. So your reaction and feelings are actually 100% normal. It’s not an autism thing. It’s a normal human thing because who the fuck knows what to expect anymore?
I spent years just devouring etiquette manuals. Intuiting the right behaviour in social situations is something autistic people often struggle with much more than neurotypical people, so it was literally like finding the rule book to life.
There was this post on reddit that I saw ages ago- the person wanted to go to Subway for the first time but had bad anxiety.
So someone else explained every part of it- gave links to the list of breads and the menu, explained how to create something completely off-menu, explained sizes of breads/flatbreads/non-sandwiches, what the options for veg. and condiments are, chip/cookie options, and basically every little thing.
Most of etiquette books were basically doing that- give you the complete available options as if someone had never done anything similar. Sometimes they failed but that was what they were attempting to do.
That's an excellent modern example.
Oh gosh I love coming across social media posts like this. Even if I don't need them personally I'm so glad there are people willing to take the time and do it for others
I was going to bring that one up, but you did already!
Another one I've seen is someone explaining the difference of text language for different generations to their older relatives. Such as using ... older folks might use it to divide ideas, but to younger folks it has negative associations. In summary it was that an older relative might be asking how your friend is, and you could interpret it as a declaration of war against your choices of friends. That's really paraphrased and from memory, but I hope you get the gist. Effectively, punctuation saves lives!
I work in a grocery store deli and I have a little "onboarding" session with the teenaged new-hires very similar to this. First job, for some of them. Never cleaned a dish before in their lives, for some of them. Never talked directly to unrelated, non-teacher adults before, for some of them. And every single one of them had to be shown how to use the telephone-based store pager, the "script" to follow when making a page, and HOW TO HANG UP WITHOUT CRASHING THE HANDSET DOWN ON THE LOUDSPEAKERS. And how to take a phone call and what to say. And how to put that call on hold before shouting across the deli for me. And how to pick it back up because I am up to my elbows in feta and cream cheese. I use role-playing and shift debriefs, especially when a coworker says the customers asked personal questions, and it turns out it was just somebody my age making smalltalk (and sometimes someone my age being very inappropriate, and I let them know their instincts were sharp, and what to do about it without getting a write-up). Also, how to use a J-cloth and get their hands soapy when they're washing stuff up. I can tell when they're just wiping the sample plates with a spritz of sanitizer and a dry paper towel.
One thing I love about the internet is that people can share their experiences and info and guide others, the first time I traveled to a neighbor country looking up for information to what to expect really helped my anxiety and the same goes to the smaller examples as you wrote
Honestly I like etiquette and manners... Life is easier when there are some rules or at least guidelines for some things - like queueing, greeting, visiting someone and dining. Makes me feel like every day is special. I like dressing up too.
Same. I found a few etiquette books from the 20th century in secondhand shops. I bought them mostly for posterity but they're so interesting.
Thank God for social media ■ where collective information for setting up a standard against narcissism can be established in a narrow time frame; where in the [p]ass most suffered at the behavior and words of others till death. M
Agreed. I'm fundamentally a chaotic being and these little rules help me navigate society. Plus I see it as an opportunity to show respect to my loved ones and strangers alike.
We still have them, they still exist
Same! And I have autism- I struggle wirh social cues, so having a written code of behavior is extremely helpful in navigating society
One of the commentaries on neurodivergent people in history and their lack of visible representation is that in the past society was less difficult to navigate with many of the mild to moderate cases that stand out more strongly today. I think etiquette books must have served as a historical accommodation (though unintentional) for those of us that have difficulty with social rules and norms. Unsure how to behave in a situation or what to expect, here's a detailed written account.
Fascinating!
What does neurodivergent mean?
@@simonestreeter1518your brain works differently from the majority of people's brains.🥰🌹
@@simonestreeter1518 Neurodivergent means that your brain differs from the statistical average "typical" brain for your demographic category. I can't give you an extensive list (I didn't memorize those alas, I need the space for victorian sci-fi space colony tropes right now) but off the top of my head, it includes, but is not limited to:
- autism spectrum
- ADD & ADHD
- PTSD and C-PTSD
- DID
- bipolar disorder
- borderline personality disorder
- antisocial personality disorder
- learning disabilities
- brain damage from various causes
- synesthesia
- OCD
etc
Essentially your brain either wasn't wired standard, or through some circumstances, was forced to adapt to something that isn't a brain's usual state of processing, which makes it harder to process, predict and act in the way(s) set as a social standard, leading to unexpected or eccentric reactions compared to the assumption held up as a social norm.
Autism isn’t the only neurodivergency
One of the instructions noted in an etiquette book was, "...do not engage in violent arguments during dinner." I have several relatives to whom that information would be invaluable to make part of their participation in family gatherings.👀
😂 lol 😂
Politics? 😂
That illustration of men looking under the table was absolutely hilarious. Such dinamic poses!
Dynamic
@@Cindy-by3ho right.
Explains line in My Fair Lady of Mr Higgins being exasperated about looking for a glove 😂
I love how you explain this! As a small town Canadian, you ALWAYS smile, slightly nod your head, and say a soft "hi" or "good morning" to EVERYONE you pass when you're out walking whether you know them or not. In town, you smile and nod to anyone you make eye contact with. My Irish husband took me home to Cork City and had to explain to me not to just start chatting with people in line at the grocery store, be so profuse with my thanks everytime a waitress came to the table, or smile at strangers on the road. I felt SO RUDE, but was in a different place with different rules that I hadn't grown up with.
In South Africa, it is the same. You greet and smile at everyone on the street as you pass thrm or walk through doorways, strangers or not. It's very rude if you don't. Overseas I almost got arrested for bring friendly. Broke my heart.
@@gabriellawebber548 Come to Canada!
In small-town and rural Ireland, we do the same friendly gestures you mentioned! It's just in the more populated areas that it's not really done. I'm always surprised every time I visit a city-- or even a larger town-- and people look at you like you're a crazy person for acknowledging them with the 'smile-and-incline' lmao 😅
Acknowledging some one when most do it makes one feel safe.
Canadians are the nicest people! So sorry your country is struggling and I hope things improve after the election.
"Keep your necessities in your carry-on" is so accurate. Also, recommendation: put a change of clothes in a ziplock at the bottom of your backpack just in case your checked baggage gets lost or you spill something on your flight/train ride. It's good to have on hand.
I always suggest a pair of "scrubs" as an emergency back up. They are generally available cheaply 2nd hand, fit a wide range of sizes, can be used as sleepwear in a pinch, but they are very informal.
They pack down very flat, though they do wrinkle a bit.
I've often thought about how I wish it was still uncouth for a man to speak to a woman he hasn't been introduced to.
Especially when so many men going out and talking to women who are trying to do something not involving them are uncouth about it.
@@darkstarr984 Or when men make passes at women they don't know.
@@kathmorgan3429 it still is, but only women acknowledge such
Women's hats have been traditionally been purely decorative (accessory, ornamentation), Men's hats are more practical and functional (outerwear), thus, like coats, should come off- except at the live theater or cinema ( both indoor spaces), where everyones hat should come off.
@@darkstarr984 Telling them you're not interested isn't that hard.
Having more specifically explained manuals would also be useful for neurodivergent folks who might have a harder time picking up on subtle cues about what to do and what to say in various situations. Not knowing what to expect or do or say can cause a lot of anxiety about misunderstandings that would be alleviated a lot by reading about what to do beforehand. I've seen being neurodivergent in neurotypical society as feeling like everyone else has read a manual that you don't have. But what if you did have one!
As a moderately functional autistic... The very idea that we don't need books is kind of a problem. The amount of things that they assume we will just figure out by watching people gets very very frustrating.
I was coming here to comment about this hahah, my autistic brain would loooooove some written down instructions!
Exactamundo!!
I have autism, and having a written guideline of behavior that I can abide by is so very helpful.
As a trilingual autistic person, yes, and thrice yes! What I’ve learned is polite in Norway isn’t necessarily the same as what’s polite in an English- or German-speaking country.
I have ADHD, and yeah, this absolutely tracks. I think a big chunk of my social awareness comes from an early fascination with etiquette (one of my earliest special interests was history, and I got really interested in the history of etiquette as a kid); I'd read old etiquette books to see how society worked, and I'd apply as much as I feasibly could to my own life because it was fun. I actually had a neighborhood friend basically give me a small finishing school when I started public school (I was homeschooled until 4th grade and didn't know all the social rules of attending public school, so I got bullied). She taught me some of the social rules about asking other kids to play, how much to talk at lunch while still managing to eat, what would be considered weird to wear to school, and what kinds of recess games might be considered weird (nobody really wanted to pretend to be Mesopotamian farmers at recess with me). We drifted apart in interests as we got older, and eventually I moved out of the neighborhood, but I still really value that she took time to teach me the unspoken rules of public school, because learning them really helped me feel more comfortable as I settled into my school, and helped me a lot later when I had to move schools.
I encountered an international etiquette encyclopedia of a sort years ago and learned I was being a massively offensive jerk to my best friend’s mother (I failed to accept food when offered on more than once). Huge change to the relationship dynamics.
I went from “Oh, him again…?” to mom asking after my health, even now, years later. Also, the food, incredible. I was so dumb to have “politely declined” even after already having eaten.
It is funny, my family it was clean your plate to be polite, at my friend's it was leave some to show you were full...
Being offered food is huge in Hispanic culture. If you ever went to my grandma's house, you were going to eat. 😂
Food etiquette is fascinating. In some cultures not feeding your guests is the worst breach of etiquette, so if you turn down food then you're denying your host the ability to be polite. (Of course, sometimes you will get the food anyway, with a politely passive-aggressive "in case you change your mind") To get more complicated, in some of these cultures you won't get a second offer, but in others it's polite to turn down the first offer and accept on the second or third. And then you get some cultures where it's polite to offer food or drink but not polite to take it, which is the most confusing to me, and probably infinite variations.
This custom is one I understand (my culture very much has this), but it is so hard to deal with when you have allergies. I can't just eat anything. Literally, I have a completely separate kitchen from my housemates to avoid cross-contamination of my allergens. But that's not something I want to explain to every person I meet. So I often avoid such social situations entirely, instead.
@@MeMe-Moi bullshit social norms interfering with things disabled people physically cannot do feels like an unsolvable problem of human existence. There are too many unsolvable problems of human existence, like the fact that creating new humans is life-threatening deadly torture for the existing humans the new humans come out of. I hate being human and I hate being alive.
I saw something like this online somewhere:
No etiquette book has ever said do not piss on someone else's glass.
Anything that someone has "forbidden" in an etiquette manual is something people are doing.
Sometimes etiquette "orders" are just the author offering a decision on a situation where there are multiple possible choices. I have seen the author specifically say in a manual from the 20s "if you must have someone decide for you why not..."
I've also seen a victorian etiquette manual that said that if you behave as if what you did is correct most people will assume it is, and if you are hesitant others will wonder if it was right even if its what they would do.
What formal etiquette rules do you wish we had today? I'm definitely all about turning off the volume on phone games in public!
I don’t know if people do this where you are but where I live people, for some god forsaken reason, max their car stereos and open their windows polluting the streets not just with their exhaust but also with their noise. I hate it.
Don't put your phone on speaker and hold it like a slice of pie on the freaking bus/metro/streetcar!
Agreed! For any noise on your phone in public - headphones exist for a reason!
I have to turn off the sound for my own sake, never mind people around me (who presumably wouldn’t appreciate the sound much more than me).
When the phone should be out, put away, face up, face down, display on or off.
This is reminding me of how "Downton Abbey" had a historian/consultant on the set for every season, Alistair Bruce (?) nicknamed by the production "The Oracle", who had to instruct both cast and crew on the proper etiquette of being in public and especially table manners. A behind the scenes feature showed him giving pointers to Laura Carmichael on how, as an upper class woman, how to sit at the dining table, and when to remove her gloves.
I remember seeing that too! The rule that stuck out to me was that under no circumstances should the sisters rest against the backs of a chair in front of their grandmother.
@@CassiBlack I do reenactments and one of my costumes uses a heavy duty corset. It's surprisingly easy to never rest against the chair if I have it on, the corset functions as a prop up. And on the other hand, if I lean back on a chair, the getting up is very awkward due to it. So I bet this rule is for the grandmother's sensibilities benefit, because the change in corsetry made it obsolente for younger generation.
They definitely didn’t have such a person at the “Pride and Prejudice” movie
Loved Downton Abbey for caring so much about the details!
I think it was Mr Bruce that I saw on one of _Wired_ Q&A videos.
I think it was he who explained that "no elbows on the table" came down from Medieval times when long tables were assembled from boards laid on top of sawhorses. If somebody heavily leaned on the table with their elbows, they could easily flip the board over and the food would fly. Now it's about keeping your forearms unstained.
Etiquette is one of my favorite things to research, I think it's so interesting to see the small differences between books and different regions! Won't lie, I wish they still made etiquette books like they did. As an autistic person, it would be SO helpful to know what people expect of me instead of having to guess
YES!!! I have ADHD, and history has been a special interest of mine since I was a kid. One of the first bits of domestic history I got very interested in was etiquette; I loved the idea of having a nice, simple code I could refer back to, instead of flailing around for the answers and looking like a fool. It made me feel really competent when I memorised something from an etiquette book, like I was learning the hidden language of functioning in society (and, reading about etiquette from societies very far from me in time and space has always interested me for similar reasons, as well as offering a great window into the day to day experiences of life in another culture). I wish there were still etiquette books being commonly written about the modern era, because I'm pretty confused by a lot of this stuff!!
HOW did I not realise that etiquette books would be lifesavers for the neurospicy people?! Thank you for pointing that out!
There is an updated edition of Emily Post's Etiquette that was released a year or two ago if you are looking for a starting point.
@@madscientistenby9572 *Boswell Sisyō* (viz., Sandra Boswell MA) *explains protocol in detail in the book **_Protocol Matters: Cultivating Social Graces in Christian Homes and Schools_** (Moscow, ID, USA: Canon Press, 2007).*
As the first autist in the 東宣北米神聖教會 OMS (viz., Oriental Missionary Society) Holiness Church of North America, I take protocol in a Japanese take, viz., with suffixes rather than prefixes - at 胡桃河町日系油童教會 Japanese Christian Church of Walnut Creek (CA, USA), a member Congregation of said OMS Holiness Church of North America, I've decided to take the job of Disability Assistant, which requires training above and beyond Boswell Sisyō's mandates.
I think the biggest problem is that the people who most need an etiquette manual are the least likely to read one. People going through life with good intentions toward others usually do well enough.
Totally. It’s like the defensive driving problem.
Autists?
@@cheerpoasting I beg your pardon. Autistic people might not always understand social etiquette but I think they are the most likely to read books on the subject once they become aware of their lack of understanding.
@@cheerpoasting They are the ones who need to read an etiquette book
an exception to this is autistic people, most of us would *kill* for a list of rules for how to behave in social situations that everyone mostly agrees is “correct”
The head nod tilt as a replacement for hello, is something I’ve done for years. A lot of people in my state do that too (or a quirk of a smile).
I am guilty of the "Yankee scrunch" a quick weird little smile when you make eye contact with people in public. I find it off putting when you look at some and they just have a blank stare that goes right through you.
As a grocery store employee I do that for every customer I pass by who is close enough to see but not so close as to say "Hello" to without raising my voice.
@@katieserra6492same! Did you see that moment in social media where people of color were talking about people doing that to them? It looked strained or disingenuous, so they assumed it was due to prejudice, like, "Ew." Only to realize, for once at least, they were just being included in our weird customs. I just found it so funny because it does seem fake from an outside perspective 😂
I would argue that we actually are really lacking in rules for clothing, especially women's clothing. I have been to various presentations on going to conferences, interviewing for jobs, etc. where the question of clothing comes up and the answer generally tends to be the levels of formality in men's business clothing are mostly determined by the presence or absence of blazers and ties, but nobody actually knows what the hell the rules are for women. Business casual clothing for women is a giant mystery.
Yes!!! My brain has landed on a sedately-colored midi dress with a colorful blazer as the perfect women's business casual, but I'm also ridiculous.
@@SpringStarFangirlI think a blazer is optional and leans more business for sure.
As someone with autism and anxiety i would love for etiquette books to still be a thing :P
They seem to still exist, but most of the ones I found were aimed at business or super formal stuff. Even just a book full of everyday useful responses would be something!
I actually saw one years ago, targeted at autistic children. It had a wide range of advice, my favourite being, when using a public urinary, keep your pants on. Not knowing that one sure would make things awkward I'd imagine
There's an excellent podcast called Shmanners that addresses modern etiquette in exactly this way. I highly recommend it.
They're recommending that autistic kids take acting classes now because it teaches social norms and gives them a place to practice that is nonjudgemental.
@@angryhistoryguy5657 Thank you!
Not stopping in the middle of the street and walking at a decent pace are things some people today need to learn! Especially with strollers
I don't think it's reasonable to try and dictate people's walking speed. That's just ableist. If you are in a hurry, it's perfectly reasonable to just pass the person blocking your way, no?
I agree with you but with the addition of walking lanes. Like in the roads there should be a slow lane and a fast lane.
@@JustSaraliusFor a singular person what you’re saying is reasonable but if there are more than one slow walker and if they’re blocking the road with other things like strollers mentioned in the original comment, I think even if we can’t dictate their behaviour we can shame those block the sidewalk and inconvenience everyone else.
@JustSaralius im more talking about the people who don't pay attention to their surroundings and block walkways like with a stroller or a big group or standing in the middle of a walkway. If you're walking slow but keep to the side that's fine.
Tell me you ain't got a hip deformity without telling me you ain't got a hip deformity...
Ja know, I'd rather live in a world where people didn't assume I conjured a magical limp on purpose 🙄
I heard somewhere that etiquette is really about being conscious and considerate about yourself and those around you and I really like thinking about it that way.
My favorite Jane Austen quote: “Manners is what holds a society together. At bottom, propriety is concern for other people. When that goes out the window, the gates of hell are shortly opened and ignorance is King.”
― Jane Austen
Which of her writings is that from?
@@simonestreeter1518 It was an observation on the state of humanity and just as true today as it was then.
Wow. We can see this first hand in the choice the U.S. has for presidential candidates.
Precisely, my friend.
@@lunavanbutterfly1594 It is indeed an observation, however I don't recognize it as a quote from one of her books, nor the personal letters of hers that I have read.
I always liked the way the movie Blast from the Past explained the reason for manners and etiquette. It wasn’t to make ppl appear superior. It is meant to make those around you feel comfortable and valued. Always thought that was a wholesome way to think about it
28:20 reminds me of the time when i was at a thrift store with two girls i was watching. They were trying on "fancy" grown-up dresses, and I found myself having to explain the difference between "date nice" vs. something you would wear to a corporate job interview.
Don't date
I love the idea of "walk throughs" for things like traveling and the opera.
I am the sort of person who gets a bit anxious in new situation and this sort of info sounds comforting
I really laughed at the idea of the Dude giving a death stare while holding their hat aloft or someone waving their hat around while screaming WOW. What an image.
Same haha
I am so glad you posted this video today. Wired just posted a video on etiquette a few days ago and the etiquette expertly completely failed at actually answering the question "Why does etiquette matter?" His answer was just "no one is exempt from etiquette," which isn't wrong, but doesn't answer why. Your video does a much better job at explaining why it matters and how certain rules came about! Thank you!
Oh, geez. It's laid out pretty well in most of the manuals, even! It's not some silly set of rules, it's just making sure it's nice and clear what will be a bother to other people. Sometimes we just need it spelled out! We just call it "life skills" today.
@@NicoleRudolph Exactly! I know the common sentiment today is that etiquette is a bunch of silly gate-keeping rules imposed by the rich, but that's just not true. I actually think we should go back to teaching etiquette because it's really mostly about how to be considerate to others, and I think we all need to remember that our actions do impact others and it is better for everyone to foster a kind and considerate world.
Is that the one that said we shouldn’t scoop our peas, but mash them with our fork? I’m going to continue my uncouth American ways and scoop my peas so I can pop ‘em in my mouth 😅
It may sound odd, but in the late 80's / early 90's, I attended finishing school. It was essentially etiquette training and acceptable fashion.
I loved it, and I wish they were more available now.
In '82 and '83 I was in middle school, and we learned some basic etiquette in home economics class, but tge finishing school was an in depth learning experience, and I still use most of what I've learned there.
I remember learning how to write an attractive looking cheque, and how to get into a sports car without showing everything. Those were the days!
@susanstewart1402 Those were important! How to sit properly in an above-the-knee skirt, and how to quickly fix a loose hem or stocking run with clear nail polish... so many small but significant things were learned!
I did a finishing course in the mid 2000s when I was in school. Everyone in my father's family had always had etiquette classes so it was just expected. I'm not a very casual person and so I wish it were more common because I think most people are far too overly familiar.
@LadyxBleu I am pleased that you had the ability to attend such a course.
I often feel that people think there are fewer boundaries, and crossing those few have no consequence.
I think some countries may still offer basic etiquette training to young girls in middle school years, but I don't know any that offer to young boys. I can recall fairly recently seeing a woman teaching young girls in uniform, of a middle school age, how to use cutlery, and present themselves at table.
I wish all schools would teach all children, at the very least, basic etiquette, as well as simple home training, which is also rather lacking in current generations.
I'm not saying people should return to inequalities, just that they should have basic knowledge, manners, and respect, and they should know how and when to implement them.
I think the boys need some etiquette training because part of the reason some ladies don't wanna follow it is because dudes just do whatever they want. And who wants to be a lady when there are no gentlemen around? Lots of girls are still taught to be ladies but boys are just left to barbarism, when they too should have the education of presenting as a gentleman.
I honestly love the idea of having set guidelines on how to interact with the world and other people. I get so stressed trying to figure out social situations that it honestly keeps me from going to places or enjoying myself. I spend hours before events trying to figure out what to wear, what to bring, what to expect, where to sit, how to interact, where to park, etc. My neurodivergent self would love it if etiquette was more common now (as long as it were never exclusionary).
If it makes you feel better, you're not divergent at all, just like most people who are afraid of making fools of themselves or offending someone because they can't read minds. I find it bad manners to give yourself a new label that implies you are set apart from everyone else and need special treatment. If it doesn't make you feel better, maybe it is because you want to be special and can't figure out a better way.
@@simonestreeter1518.... nurodivergent means they have a condition like autism, ADHD or schizophrenia. Did you know that?
@@yeet1066 Aside from the fact that those are some of the most over-diagnosed conditions today, why would they need an additional label?
What a beautiful job you’ve done here of bringing the “outdated” concept of etiquette forward in time and showing how much it’s still relevant today. Loved this video!
How to properly lift your skirt just blew my mind. How have I lived this long in maxi dresses without knowing this?
Same!
I was literally at an event last week, lifting my skirt but somehow still stepping on it… Too bad I hadn’t watched this video 😝
Honestly, if people would just say I'm sorry, when they notice doing something that inconvenience someone (anyone) else, and then change the way they do things. Life would be that much more enjoyable.
I like this idea, but I have a feeling certain people would take advantage of it. But hey I work with the public, and gotta yelled at for literally doing my job. Or called a bitch for simply existing in a space.
Unfortunately "inconvenience" is extremely relative, both culturally and personally. I think the golden rule of "do unto others as you would have done to you" is as close as we'll ever get to something like a universal standard of etiquette but even that can be manipulated.
I was OBSESSED with etiquette as a little kid (it was one of my first domestic history interests), and I've often wished there were etiquette books written for the modern era. I find it so useful to just be told plainly all the weird little rules of how to be polite in society, because I'm really, REALLY bad at guessing that kind of stuff, and having a list to check against makes me feel like I'm not just flailing around. A lot of Victorian etiquette is now fairly silly or outdated, but it's fascinating to learn it for its own sake. I wish I could find more etiquette guides from other time periods and society (I wanna know about Mesopotamian table manners); one that I read from medieval Europe (I'm afraid I can't remember the title or when it was written, but I *think* it was a 14th century English book) has a particular gem of advice that's stuck in my head: don't blow your nose at the table, and whenever you do blow your nose, don't spend a minute looking at the handkerchief like jewels just fell out of your head. It just cracks me up, because nearly EVERYONE I know disregards the second part and looks into their handkerchief or tissue like "Wow :o" when they blow their noses!
Lol I love that. It's kind of like a health check I guess 😂
I think the "checking the contents" became a thing due to nose bleeds being a symptom of Leukemia !?
Some of us are checking for blood. I know several people if they blow their nose hard, it can set off a nosebleed. Me included.
“Like jewels fell out of your head” 😂😂 they’re right though… a glance is one thing, but an inspection is probably not necessary in most cases.
Wonder if 'it's still stuck' in her head?, lol😂
I really love your intro. I studied intercultural communication and if I had a nickel for every time I've had to tell someone that the person they're mad at for a breach of etiquette...was actually being polite to them...I'd have so many $%@#&ng nickels.
I swear I’d have a fortune! I never studied it but I’ve lived in a few countries
Truly, I would watch an entire video on “Never dress above your station.”
How about "Don't wear torn clothing (very much in fashion now) or clothing that shows too much of your body"?
The rules of modesty change with the times 🤷♀️ I’m glad I’m not expected to follow the rules of 100 years ago. The torn clothing though … I hate to buy something that’s already halfway worn out 😅
What would that even mean in today's age?
One of my favorite chapters in "Little Women" is "Calls", where Amy and Jo go out visiting to return visits from others to their own home. The start of the chapter details how Amy prompts and begs Jo to properly prepare herself for this outing. It's fun, character detailing, and informative.
Some of the most important etiquette rules my mom taught me are:
1. You do not leave the price tag on gifts. You don't tell the person how much you paid for said gift nor do you ask how much they paid for the gift they give you. Gifts are from the heart.
2. Dont tell anyone how much you make, don't brag abt your income, don't flaunt how much you have. Nobody likes a show-off. Also do not ask ppl how much they make and don't judge them by their material goods. Judge ppl by their character.
3. Don't talk abt going on vacation to strangers. Don't let anyone know when you won't be home. Asking for time off from work is fine, but keep that betwen yuu and those that matter (HR, your boss) and WHERE you go or what you'll be doing during YOUR time off is NOBODY'S BUSINESS.
#2 I think is changing within certain industries as we try to make sure that we are compensated fairly for our work but I definitely remember being told it a lot when I was younger.
#3 is really interesting to me because it seems like a cross between safety and being humble.
I think not discussing how much you make with coworkers only benefits the employer. I once started discussing salary with coworkers at a workplace. It lead to everyone realizing the white/asain employees were getting paid way more than the black/latinx employees. Also, some of the money that went to our paycheck was from federal grants, the amount the business received was available to see publicly, after discussing salary we realized the owner was pocketing some of the grant money.
I think second be needs modifications, especially in the workplace. Not knowing what your coworkers make lessens the bargaining power you have, unfortunately.
2 is a good rule for protecting your interests around people who are seeking to take advantage of you and 3 is also a good rule for safety when you’re trying to make sure nobody breaks into your house.
I take issue with #2. It is what causes wage theft for minorities. I discovered that I was being paid literally HALF that of a male colleague with far less experience and no degree in the exact same role as a result of discussing wages.
Sure, don't brag about your wage if you are fortunate, but I believe it is important to be truthful if asked by a peer who you believe should be earning equal to yourself.
“ when you sit down to dinner, the gloves come off” hahahahahahaha. That’s another reason they give you knives. For protection.
I was taught that the reason knife blades face the plates on an appropriately set table was a gentle reminder that the knives were for the food and not one's dinner companions.
I can see this if you have multiple siblings hahaha
I have my grandmother's etiquette book by Emily Post from the late 1930's. I absolutely love it! It's massive. My favorite part is the detailed explanation for household livery. I'll never use that part, but I love reading it.
I DO TOO! And yes, Emily Post is a great writer. The whole section of Washington DC etiquette is fascinating. Totally useless to me, but so cool.
My brothers got "Boy's Life" magazine when we were children(I was born in 1956). There was a cartoon every month of two little boys. One did things right. The other was a jerk. I can't remember their names and it was drawn to be funny. We loved it! Some were situations we never met, nor did we expect to. Others were just a reinforcement of the manners we were taught at home.
It might be the same as in Highlights magazine. Goofus and Gallant.
Boy's life (Now Scout Life) is still around as the US Scouting magazine. The two boys may have been the Tracy twins. or they could be Dink and Duff. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Life
Although, judging by the wiki, it sound like its full of ads and very odd reviews now. From the wiki "the version of Boys' Life geared towards older boys features buying guides for products such as cars, MP3 players, digital cameras, sunglasses, and more".
Goofus and Gallant was a comic of that description I read in Highlights magazine in the late 90s through mid 2000s.
I remember those Boy's Life magazines and those two boys. (I was born in 1946.)
lol we loved those too but we always made fun of Gallant for being a fancy pants nerd, and then we’d come up with increasingly absurd Goofus things. It’d be like “Gallant asks a dog’s owner before he pets their dog” and we’d be like “Goofus steals their dog” 😂
i wonder if victorians would make fun of these etiquette books too. I bet people in lower classes would make fun of them a lot
Back in the 1950s when we immigrated to Canada we got a book, i still have it, describing the proper Canadian etiquette, what to feed people, how to use the public transit, common phrases when shopping. The thing which struck me most was the food section, don't serve porridge of any sort except as breakfast. At the time semolina porridge with fruit sauce was a very common dutch dessert and now it was forbidden.
When i was 16 i was invited to supper at my English boyfriend's family, i made the mistake of cutting my bread roll instead of tearing it and thereby showing i was too low class for his family to accept.
The cutting the bread roll vs the tearing of the bread roll is such a wild distinction to me. So interesting to hear which is expected and where.
Oh his family does not deserve a beautiful Dutch girl in fact!
@@SewlockHolmes The tearing vs cutting bread gets wild when applied to other types of bread, due to translation issues. If some French person tells me that a bread *has to* be torn, I'm giving them a three pound loaf of half-rye sourdough, as this is common bread around where I live, and watch. With popcorn.
@@lenkamaresova4116I suppose that’s why it “isn’t done” to cut your bread in high society: That would imply that their bread is hard to tear and therefore low class.
Similarly, I learned that in Japan it absolutely isn’t done to scrape your chopsticks against one another to remove splinters, as we do here in the US. That is an insult, because it implies that you think they gave you something that would hurt you! Their manufacturing standards are MUCH higher than here in the US. Being a collectivist society, they care for each other better than in the individualist United States.
Seeing the fact these books used to cover things like 'how to catch a bus' reminds me of something you seen on reddit from time to time where people will often make threads on seemingly 'basic' topics like travelling by train, catching a bus, ordering food etc because we're not necessarily sat down and told how to do these things we're sot of left to figure it out/assume we'd be guided by example.
Also some of these rules seem weird until you get the context, like recently i learned the 'no elbows on the table' rule apparently came from sailors because if you eat on a ship you'd often have to put your elbows on the table to stay steady and so if you did that it showed you up as an apparently lower class person.
I have always lived in rural areas. I am TERRIFIED of ever having to use a taxi because I have no clue how they work and have heard many stories of taxi drivers taking advantage of hicks like m.
Another theory is that tables weren't always sturdy, sometimes it was more akin to trestle tables and if you did put your elbows on them, you'd risk tipping the whole thing over.
Others argue that it's because guarding your food is something lower class people would do, and taking more space than necessary by putting your elbows around your "allowed space" is considered rude to other people earing around you. The slouched posture is also uncouth.
I've read all of those explanations and others for the "no elbows on the table" rule. But I think the real reason is putting your elbow or elbows on the table crowds the person next to you. I was at a conference lunch once and the man to my right had his left elbow on the table almost constantly. Every time I reached for my glass, I had to reach over his arm. Eventually, I reached for my glass just as he moved his arm, and I ended up with red wine on my blazer, blouse and skirt. It seems no elbows on the table is just a sensible rule for being polite to others.
As an undiagnosed autistic child I was fascinated by etiquette books. I genuinely learned useful things! I wish there were etiquette books for contemporary everyday people. Often those you find are aimed towards rich people or very old bourgeoisie.
I was going to ask. How many of us read any etiquette books we could get ahold of regardless of era, hoping to unlock the mysteries of humanity - now recognize ourselves to be Autistic.
I liked Emily Post's 1922 Etiquette. Very: always be kind to everyone, even the staff (but don't suffer actual harm or egregious or repeated disrespect after verifying) and always endeavour to keep clothing in good repair. Almost everything else, she admits can change with fashion, weather, location, and any other variable in existence.
For me it was Manners from Heaven by Quentin Crisp, really wonderful and helpful in life even today ❤
@@saulemaroussault6343 The Shmanners podcast is exactly that. Am autistic, can confirm.
I've seen a lot of etiquette media created by autistic people for other autistic people. it's not books, and it's not centralised, but it's all over redit, youtube, random personal blogs, tictok etc.
I've seen "this is what it's like to fly, step by step" and stuff like that. it'd be harder to think of one for really everyday situation. as a thought experiment, I could try to write one for, say, "doing the weekly shop at a UK supermarket"
"before you even arrive at the supermarket, it is important to know what it is you will need to buy. we want to avoid at all costs the horror of standing in the middle of an aisle, crowds of fellow shoppers, flickering lights overhead, and the growing realisation that you've forgotten what meals even are. so, we begin with the list. if your working memory is very good, you may not need an actual list every time..."
(I'm semi serious. we can write the book)
There's a podcast you might enjoy called Shmanners that is about modern etiquette!
What you said at the end there about these rules being layed out cleary in black and white " do this, dont do that in X situation in Y environment" was very interesting. It got me thinking that perhaps it contributed to the reason that neuro divergent people went under the radar alot easier back then, as they could learn social cues alot easier and more directly communicated from these manuals.
The giant hat at the theater with the man on a ladder behind, trying to see 😂 It’s the “please silence your phone” of their day
I love etiquette! Today, it’s important for bringing people from different experiences and backgrounds together, using a common social language.
Due to my father's career manners and etiquette started in the high chair. I still try to practice of how I was raised in the general public. Even though I'm a woman, I will of I'm first at the door I will open the door and allow those who are coming or going through before I cross over. I did this one day and ended up standing 5 minutes as people just poured in and out crushing each other. Instead of opening the second door on the other side and turning it into a two-way street. I had bruised toes and someone managed to step on my heel. Some days it's very hard to keep from saying something exceptionally rude to people like that. When I get done with my marketing I always take the cart either back to the store if it's closer or to one racks instead of leaving it in the middle of the road or in an empty parking spot. My husband asked me one day why I even bothered and I told him because I'm was not going to behave as badly as those around us besides, it only takes a minute. It never hurts to be able to say please and thank you yet that is something that seems not to be in a lot of people's vocabularies. The worst offenders seem to be the people that believe themselves more important or have more money than those around them. I've have news for them they're not.
I am also female, and also hold doors for others !
It is kind of fun when you meet another 'soul' who also holds doors ! I open the first and say "after you!" And they hold the 2nd and say "After YOU!" And we both smile at each other. I've had this happen with men & women.
Chivalry is not quite dead, lol !
@@m.maclellan7147 not quite dead but seems to be circling the drain some days. The worst of it usually seems when driving.
And it's never good etiquette to be rude or condescending to service staff.
A fun episode. My mom had etiquette lessons as part of public school classes in the 1930’s. She taught us those lessons when we were little, such as how to manage your skirts on stairs, and had us practice until we could do it gracefully and safely. I never worry about how I look dealing with stairs thanks to my mom. 🙂
Jeez, these days we spend all of our time working on "sit down", "don't interrupt", and "do the thing you're supposed to be doing"
As an undiagnosed AuDHD kid, i was OBSESSED with etiquitte books and so mad we didnt have them in modern times because what do you MEAN they had an INSTRUCTION MANUAL on how to be a human in society?!
I learned a lot of basic etiquette from my parents and grandmother - and we were modestly middle-class, not wealthy. (I was a child in the 70s and 80s.) But maybe this means there's a market for some young etiquette tik-tokers. Goodness knows we all need a little more etiquette in the present day.
There are some. Unfortunately they run amok with it.
Ie: place blade between tines of fork to indicate you are finished. Said nobody ever.
Let’s begin:
Shoes and feet stay on the floor at all times. Only exception: private backyards or beach.
All electronic wires should be kept harnessed. Do not allow them to interfere with anyone’s personal space.
😆
I'd love some manuals on etiquette especially these days when people travel abroad a lot. As a Korean in western country I catch myself bowing more times than I'd like to admit instead of waving or shaking hands😂
I'm half Asian but was born in Europe. After spending a year in Asia it felt so off and rude to not bow back home. I ended up slowly teaching myself to just nod/bend the head a bit (albeit deeper than people do here) while smiling. It is still more formal that people are used to in Europe but since it's seen as more respectful they generally don't mind
This was fascinating.
I love places today that will have signs that spell it out for people.
One of my favorites I see occasionally is "We'll start your transaction when you end your call." 😂😂😂
That is clever !
I still write letters, as well as email. I'm 65 years old, and was brought up by my Mum, Aunts and Grandmother. So, I had it drummed into me how I should behave, as a little girl, and as a teenager. I like hearing all about the etiquette from long ago. You are very interesting to watch and listen to! TFS! ~Janet in Canada
When I was a girl, my mom bought me etiquette books all the time! American Girl had a whole series of them in the mid 2000's, and Girl Scouts spent a lot of time discussing etiquette, too.
I also did Cotillion in middle school, though those rules were a bit out of date and haven't come in handy much.
My parents made me do cotillion because they were just trying anything for my autism, like complete throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck levels of stuff. I’m pretty sure doing that just made me weirder in the eyes of my peers at the local middle school
@@phoenixfritzinger9185 omg same here, I wasn't diagnosed until I was 20, but my mom kept trying to get me into training for debutante stuff to teach me "how to be more like other girls" haha. She even took me to a beauty queen contest and was offering to pay contestants to take me shopping and be their friend....luckily that didn't work out cause that would have been way too weird
As a someone with social anxiety I would devour the “walk through” section! I’m always searching online on how to do certain things, like ordering at restaurants I have never been to, attending events I have never been to, etc
I took etiquette classes when I was a teenager. It helped me when I was a young adult to figure out what to wear, how to act and how to talk to people when I arrived at an event, function or any gathering. From casual to very formal occasions. It made me less nervous and made me confident to know what could be expected of me. The lesson was primarily about how to be considerate of others and that approach enables you speak and connect with a wide variety of people.
My great grandmother born 1899 sent me to etiquette school for three years, it was two weeks at a time, from age 11 to 14, I actually really enjoyed it and I still use almost everything I learned in everyday life! ❤
Fascinating Nicole. Like a free university lecture. You would make an excellent professor. I could llisten your voice all day. Thank you.
A modern example: When my child was 2, we took her to a restaurant. Not her first time at one, but she had recently learned to remove her coat and shoes by herself. When we entered, we took off our coats. Then we looked down and saw our child sitting on the floor taking off her shoes! Because this is the correct etiquette at home (or another house). We had to explain that in a restaurant, we keep our shoes on, which she found confusing. So when I see these books, I feel like they were definitely written for someone who is kind of clueless - maybe they're from a country village and now in London, for example - to help them make sense of their new surrounding culture, and to fit in, and to make a good impression. I can also imagine writing a book describing that we take off our coat but not shoes in a restaurant, and people wondering why we need that kind of info written out - and yet we do. No different than traveling to another country now - especially if it's for work, or to visit someone - and learning that country's etiquette to fit in and make a good impression. A Big City and formal events were kind of like another world to someone from a remote part of the country, even once the railroads came in. It still is - I had to read up about weddings before attending (never attended one as a child) and I know nothing about red carpet etiquette, or VIP ticket holder etiquette, for example. What to do at a music festival? What to do at a military mess dinner (ohhh there's a lot of etiquette there!) What to do at church? A different denomination church? A different religion's services? Etc.
My mom worked as hostess/cashier in a restaurant. People would walk up to the counter talking on their phone and set their bill on the counter.
She'd just wait....Finally, "Aren't you going to cash me out?"
Mom would smile: "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't want to be rude by interrupting your phone call."
Now we have smartphones, and you're lucky if they acknowledge your presence at all.
@@beagleissleeping5359 I hope so ■ sometimes I go out of the house, and later find myself not in "suburban suit;" forgot to put on my mini skirt layer!! Oh well, my husband buys the spandex head to toe for me, and yet I order the 'Petticoats and Bed Gowns'. M
When I worked in retail… cell phones were a real pet peeve… if you ask for my help, then ignore me to have a conversation on your phone … what do you expect me to do…. Stand around waiting on you? I have other work to do🤷🏼♀️
as a cashier at a hardware store, i only mind customers phone calls when there's not a clear break for me to ask if they have a membership card and tell them their total, but that could be my gen Z nature talking. half of the time they're courteous enough to tell the person they're talking to to hold on a second, lol
@@petrifiedangel In the deli we have a whole ritual with getting the slice thickness, confirming the amount, showing the first slice, offering a sample, etc. When someone is on their phone it's highly annoying because we can't serve them correctly when they won't shut up long enough to tell us what they actually want.
Of course if we get something wrong because they weren't paying attention when we ask "Half a pound, cut thin?" they complain and blame us.
@mbvoelker8448 I work at a fast food restaurant. We have to ask, "Is everything correct on the screen?"
Most everyone automatically answers yes, and I always want to ask, "Is it actually correct or are just saying yes?" 🤣
I wish we valued caring for those around us as much these days! The parts about not stopping in the middle of a walkway... Imagine if they encountered people having loud conversations on speaker phone or blasting music, or "influencers" taking up a whole public area for their "photo shoot" and having the audacity to be annoyed that other people exist around them. Our ancestors would be appalled, as they should!
And yet people 'virtue signal' so much more in print. Perhaps it is because they know inside they don't give a darn about others.
tbh, we really need to bring back 'don't stand in the middle of the walkway, don't take up space when other people are moving around you' kind of lessons cos hooooo boy going to the grocery store is a nightmare lately. people just parking themselves in the middle of aisles as though they're the only person in the world.
So Nanny Ogg was just following the trend for writing an etiquette book, and merged it with her cookbook as bonus material!
I think the key point is what you say at the beginning. Etiquette always looks odd when written down but we actually already do most of this without thinking twice about it
When I was a little girl in the early 1960s, I was given a book of etiquette called "White Gloves and Party Manners". I get a real kick out of reading it all these years later.
I wish we had a modern rule in the same vein of removing hats: removing sunglasses when meeting someone/talking with someone for the first time and/or conducting business.
@@oechsnea
Just remove sunglasses/switch to regular glasses when entering a building unless you have photophobia or a similar reason to still need them inside. If I meet you outside on a bright day, I’m not switching glasses just to talk to you.
Some people are sensitive to light, so they could be an exception.
A lot of people with glasses have transition lenses and can't control the darkness of their glasses
@@LadyBoldlyjust coming to say this, as I have those kind of glasses ! They turn fairly quickly when it's warm out, but take longer in the winter. But, with snow, they are fantastic to cut the glare !
The only time to take your sunglasses off is when your eyes don't need them.
I use the diagonal skirt pull for my 13th century clothes, but then tucked into my belt! It's great for shortening the past-ground luxurious hemline while maintaining a nice silhouette than the giant mushroom from blousing.
As someone who wears hats on a daily basis for sun protection, I am surprised how many of the hat etiquette just comes naturally from where you are. I take it off in the elevator because then I can adjust my hat hair in the mirror 😂.
But I am often alone there.
I noticed how differently people behave at the breakfast/brunch buffet at a hotel I stayed in. And got confronted with how I myself had a clear idea of what was 'polite' to do - with much reason.
Some picked up food for themselves on a plate and ate it at their table. Some picked alot of different things on plates, and brought it to a table to share with their family. Some reused their plates, and some (I) just took a new plate when I went up for another round. Some used the same glas for juice and water, some took a new glas for each drink. Some had a very clear order they ate the food items in; savory and filling and last the sweeter things. Some were very quiet and others talked loudly and again others read books at the table.
I think there is alot of etiquette still around today, we just dont talk about it.
Being a dane, I especially get how danes can seem very taciturn and almost cold, when in public. Really it is just an unsaid eitquette not to disturb others and respecting others want for quiet. As it might be a bit rude to assume someone else want to smalltalk with a complete stranger.
And in alot of other places in the world, it is the complete opposite.
I worked a number of years at a very fancy hotel that had an award winning Cafe with a well attended Brunch.
Some of the etiquette was reenforced by the staff ! They regularly swept used dishes & glasses off the tables, and would bring you a fresh orange juice, say. Coffee or tea were the one thing that tended to get refilled.
All the buffet tables were staffed and had HUGE piles of clean plates constantly being refilled. The staff was set up at carving stations, and would ask your preferred amount. They would hold it on a fork and knife and ask if it was okay before putting it on your plate. You were free to say, "Oh, just half that, please!" And they would give you the smaller portion.
It was such a relaxing vibe, because there was always a staff member clearing a plate, refilling your water or coffee, or just generally helpful.
There was also an even fancier French Restaurant there, but I never felt as comfortable dining there ! Lol 😁 That etiquette was a bit too intense ! (And the bill was MUCH higher!)
In the US it's actually against the law to reuse plates.
I always reuse my crockery at a buffet - I feel it's inconsiderate towards the kitchen staff, and wasteful of water, to use clean crockery every time.
@@judithvorster2515 - That is usually illegal because it spreads disease.
@@cheerpoasting ... which my European ass only learned during my first US based cruise 😅 I was so used to reusing my buffet plate but when I saw you had to pass the staff every time to get to the actual food, it became clear to me. That was also a thing I've never paid much attention to at all.
I always thought how much easier it must have been to be Autistic back then, with all the rules so clearly written out!
I think there is a large population of neurodivergent folks who would LOVE to have more of this stuff explicitly spelled out. What I especially like are versions of etiquette manuals in which the author actually takes the time to explain the *logic* behind various "rules." A lot of people struggle to understand or assimilate rules that are perceived as arbitrary. Understanding that you don't want to accidentally elbow someone's drink, get food on your sleeves, or hinder your neighbors from easily maneuvering their knife and fork is a lot easier to remember and go along with than simply being yelled at to "Keep your elbows off the table!" because it's "rude" according to some faceless authority on "manners."
I also wish some things would come back in fashion, such as formal invitations to parties (which you really only see nowadays with kids parties and very formal events like weddings). This whole vaguely talking about the existence of an event and then you're just supposed to infer whether you're actually being invited or they're just rudely talking about something in front of you that doesn't include you... It's exhausting. Just spell it out in speech or text or whatever: "You are invited to x at y time for z activity. Would you like to come." Then the other person is obligated to give an equally clear yes or no answer as to whether they plan to attend, and to update that answer promptly should it change for any reason. I feel like we've gone waaay too far in the opposite direction in terms of the informality of socializing, and people have forgotten that social etiquette actually does actually have a purpose beyond looking uppity. Just a little bit more of a "script" for these things can avoid so many misunderstandings, wasted efforts, and hurt feelings.
It’s kind of depressing that “don’t chew with your mouth open” needed to ever be in a manners book presumably aimed at teens and adults. I don’t know about anyone else, but this was a base level thing that my parents taught me in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.
Yeah but your parents taught you it in elementary school cus it’s a social thing that probably originated during that era. It’s all relative. We shouldn’t eat with our hands but in some south eastern and African countries it’s still perfectly fine.
I remember taking etiquette classes as a young lady. The one rule that tickled me most was the proper way to open a door.. we actually practiced correct body placement, which hand to use to grasp a door handle and how to grasp the handle.
In your discussion at the end of the video on what sorts of situations or types of people would receive disproportionate benefit from having these social norms written down, I kept thinking about autism. I and my autistic peers have frequently complained about "why isn't there a manual for how to exist in society? How did everyone else pick up all these rules that are in no way obvious to us??" So like, while autism wasn't a term or concept used until the mid 20th c, it definitely has existed for at least as long as humans have, and I am 100% sure in the 19th c most literate autistics would have *loved* having etiquette manuals. I can easily imagine some autistics of the time even developing a special interest in the subject!
"They didn't have autism back in the day" no, they just had EXTENSIVE training on how to socialize with one another, with formal rules on things like greetings during a variety of situations.. 👀
Etiquette is an extremely interesting topic. Thank you for this video.
In the 1980’s when I was promoted at work to a position of authority I remember paying attention to soap operas to figure out how to introduce two people to each other. But I actually looked up Emily Post in the library to determine the rules for how women shook hands. It was my sense at the time that men always shook hands but not necessarily women.
I wish we had these books again. I get so confused about what to do and what ti say in certain situation. Which degree of politeness to use ect
And some people have lost very basic decency these days (looking at people who don't use headphones in trains 😡)
bringing these back would make existence as an autistic person so much easier
My grandmother on my mother's side still follows some of those old-fashioned rules, and I grew up absorbing a bunch of them, for example the hat thing. I was very aware that "remove your hat inside" was a rule for men and not applicable if you are a woman and the hat is part of your hairdo ; so when I wore a hat at school and got reprimanded because I didn't want to take it off, I was scandalized. Did the hall monitor (well, our local equivalent, I'm not American) know nothing about hat rules ?!
I also know how to peel an orange with a knife and a fork, how to set a table "properly", and the most important rule of all : it's very impolite to remark upon someone else's rudeness. That one may be the only one I still consistently follow, but I do get a kick of silently judging people when they are rude in public
There were exceptions to the "no wearing hats inside" rule, it was generally acceptable to wear hats in barns, bars, the public rooms of certain public buildings, and a few others.
Learning the rules of etiquette is so useful if you were raised in an environment where most of your peers don’t worry about those rules. It allows you to move in many more circles. I was so grateful for all the rules of etiquette that my mother taught me. They definitely came in handy as I got older and began to move around to different areas.
7:38 I stopped to read these pages and honestly I’m gonna take this advice 😅 using a cloth instead of some mitts and I don’t think I’ll use borax, but definitely soap, because I never really was that hygienic but now I realize the importance of it if I want to be considered respectable and presentable and clean for my job
It's incredible advice (borax aside), and I was screenshotting it when I saw your comment!!
I like the part in Emily Post's Etiquette where she says not to look down on people for not knowing the correct etiquette and play along as best as you're comfortable (I think it's in the section on men not extending their hands to women first to shake).
I love that they say "don't feed the dog at the table." So many people have dogs that are very badly behaved around food, and it's all because people feed them from their plates and let them lick their plates. We just never feed the dogs people food, and they pretty much ignore us eating. It's much nicer.
Yes, this ! If you must give the dog a treat, wait until the dinner is cleared, and toss the scrap from your plate into the dogs dish.
Dogs enjoy variety just like people. Greyhounds are actually fed people food at the track, so I’m not going to stop that. We don’t feed them at the table. We may prepare their food at the same time we prepare ours, but they eat after us in their food bowls in their assigned areas.
My dog will just sit and wait near the table for you to give him something. Unless you’re deliberately making eye contact with him, he won’t bark or fuss for you to give him food. He knows it’s a treat and not something to always be expected
Those clear rules are such a huge help. I heard the "don't shake somebody's hand/greet someone between 2 rooms" for the first time when I was 23...
2 things. One, I would LOVE to see someone write a manual of modern etiquette in a flowery Victorian writing style, it'd be hilarious. Two, I had a LARP character for a while who was from the 19th century and was extremely autistic so she obsessed over having proper etiquette because following those scripts was the only way for her to function in high society. And then she ended up in the modern world and Could. Not. Deal. because none of her scripts worked anymore.
Two words: Miss Manners. (A/k/a Judith Martin, a syndicated columnist, who has published several collections of her columns… always in the voice of the personification of Elaborate Etiquette. She is now semi-retired, and her son and daughter are helping to write the column.)
That was brilliant, I've never watched any of your videos before, it just popped up in my feed. Great delivery too - not looking down on rules and practices and a gentle scepticism at the more bizarre rules too. And the way the topics roll on from one another - to stuff. Definitely a new subscriber here.
A second "Thank you" tor this video. I'm currently reading Dickens' “Dombey and Son.”
Last night, while reading Chapter 25, there were a couple paragraphs where part would have flown over my head if it weren't for your video. There's a strange character who appears to be obsequious, but is actually malignant and controlling. This dichotomy is shown again in this passage, but I wouldn't have understood how obsequiously he was behaving without seeing the part of your video about hat etiquette. I probably missed other bits earlier in the book, but now I'll keep my eagle eye out for more. 🙂♥️👍
Tbh when an invite arrives saying "smart casual" or "smart" for what to wear, I really wish we did have a book telling us exactly what that means! My smart casual is not the same as someone else's so it always causes people to fret over what EXACTLY they mean!
Sociologist here. I was FASCINATED by these books as a kid! I begged my mom for etiquette classes. IMAGINE the tea parties if I had such knowledge!
ANYways
Internalizing social expectations we call “socialization”. A big part of this is knowing etiquette. We socialize each other directly (like thru etiquette books) and indirectly by observing people’s behavior in real life.
TLDR; I wanna watch a fancy tea party like a zoo exhibit 👀
I cant be more agree with everything you said here. Please write that book, we need it so much!!!!
After studying and training with application to etiquette ■ I learned and established a mannerism that should not offend others; the point was how I would effect others and [n]ot how others would effect myself. M
As an AuDHDer, the part about the walk-throughs of what to do in a new social situation sounds amazing. I would kill for a dress and etiquette guide for starting out in different types of workplaces.
I am literally so stressed because I've worked blue collar jobs for years and I'm going into my first office job shortly. Literally, ALL I have to work from is TV and buzz feed articles.
No, literally it is not all you have. You're here, aren't you? There are other channels too.
I feel like the ~need~ for etiquette manuals was a lot like our need for makeup tutorials today. There's knowledge that you're supposed to have, but you're not really supposed to ask your friends (because it's supposed to be "effortless," and, I guess, spring fully formed out of your mind), you don't have money to pay someone to teach you, and your parents either don't know or can't teach you, so you turn to a book/TH-cam to fill in the gaps.
... I am slightly too old (and wouldn't have watched them anyway) to have had makeup tutorials when I was a preteen. There are probably other examples too, but that's the first "thing you're just supposed to know, but just don't" thing that came to mind.
I have a son who has ADHD, I'm likely neurodivergent myself (no diagnosis tho), and I gotta say - the MOST frustrating thing about modern etiquette is that lack of strongly worded, written down rules. I can't count the number of times I've stumbled socially and had NO IDEA why everyone was upset. Not least because growing up I didn't actually have access to TV and movies for the most part. All my life I've felt rather like I was raised by wolves, simply because I never learned-by-watching in the way you describe. The same has happened to my son, and I've had to sit and try to explain to him certain aspects of eitquette - AND to explain that no, it doesn't make you a bad person if you don't automatically know these things. Even if your school mates try to tell you such a lie. -.-
This topic also reminds me of a section of one of my favorite novels - a historical fantasy set in 1905 California. The heroine has to travel from Chicago to San Francisco, by train, alone. And the details of just how GROSS her walking-skirt is by the time she gets to her destination - and why her clothes have gotten so dirty! - was simply astonishing. I'd never once considered how comfortable and convenient modern travel actually is, you know? Get in your private vehicle, fully enclosed with AC and everything, and go wherever. 1800s? Good luck with getting a ticket to the exact location you need - you're likely to have to settle for "close enough" and then cobble together other transport to get yourself the rest of the way there! Stops are few and far between, and not much in the way of bathroom facilities ON the train (if any at all); food isn't laid on, window glass is not standard, and dust is inescapable... It's a wonder anybody WANTED to travel!
One group of people for whom that kind of detailed, written down etiquette manual would probably still be super useful today: people on the autism spectrum. Do not get me *started* on the sociological hell that is deciphering "business casual", for example. If I could get a printed-out guide saying "This kind of fabric is acceptable, that isn't; you need shoes that are like this, this, or this; don't wear that", I...might have had a much easier time getting and keeping jobs.
business casual involves, generally, khackis or chinos + polo or short sleeve button shirt. Belts and work shoes are the same as for business. For an outdoor event, a hawaiian shirt is likely appropriate, and you can wear boat shoes or fabric tennis shoes(think of things like vans or toms, but in white or cream, perhaps navy). Hawaiian shirts are always untucked. You should not wear a suit jacket or vest. If cold, you should go for a casual/sporty jacket instead of a suit coat or blazer, indoors a sweater is acceptable.
@@cheerpoasting I am... a bit undersupplied in the trousers department, I mostly wear skirts.
@@melissatrible4214 business casual for skirt wearers usually means polo or short sleeve button shirt + your normal skirt or looser, lighter colored version of the same & boatshoes, or nice sandals, or low heels if indoors. Dresses get iffy so I would generally avoid.