So at some point, JJ said that shields can't work in atmosphere? Ignoring that it appeared as Gungan shields or Droidekas, TRoS literally showed shield interaction with the treadspeeder itself and Tantive IV burning some leaves or something when it took off.
Whilst the resistance is discussing their attack plan after Rey started to show them a path to Exegol, it is said that the fleet of Xystons can't activate their shields until leaving the atmosphere. It is easy to misinterpret as a general fact, but it was said in context of being a quirk of Exegol. Just a miniscule nitpick about the video if any.
@@KingKayro87 Incorrect. This point of confusion started with Bread Circus interpreting the conversation of my previous comment as JJ declaring all shields can't work in atmosphere in his "The Rise of Skywalker: The ONE Good Moment Could've Been Great" video at 4:40. But this doesn't change the points made in said video or demerit this one.
@@toastyrules8221 Yeah the only thing I could possibly see this even making sense would be Exegol having a nebula-like atmosphere, since it's established at least in legends that Nebulae mess with shields a lot.
My biggest problem with "they fly now?" is that finn is surprised, he used to be a stormtrooper and you want to tell me he never saw another stormtrooper with a jetpack?
He used to be a stormtrooper janitor. The most he saw until the beginning of Episode 7 was dirty toilets. Jokes aside, that whole bit is ridiculous. Unless C-3P0 just got memory wiped before that mission, there's no way he'd have 0 knowledge of First Order military tactics In the first issue of the Poe Dameron comics, Poe fights stormtroopers with jetpacks. And yeah with Finn, he grew up a stormtrooper. Him being surprised is the most silly of all.
@@kodyshaw6991I always thought of First Order Stormtroopers like the Marines, they fulfill all or most of the roles in the organization, from basic infantry to pilots and special operations but in the end all of them are trained riflemen, even if Finn wasn't selected for the jet troopers program he was probably aware of its existence.
I like to imagine it was some prototype of an idea or simply specialized troops for that planet. I mean a stormtrooper grunt stationed on some jungle planet would probably be in awe when moved to an ice planet and seeing an AT-AT.... but that said he must have known. I mean a US soldier sat in some desert camp probably doesn't really know about the intricacies of the US hovercraft program or something like that... but anyway it's a great quote I still sometimes use lol so
@@underarmbowlingincidentof1981 It'd be wierd if it was a prototype though, mainly because jetpacks are nothing new. The Mandalorians obviously used them commonly, but so did the Republic and Empire. And Finn, being a part of the First Order (even just as a janitor), would have probably studied military tactics from history.
@@Kilovotis true... maybe its a very specialized thing which normal people don't see often. I mean imagine you think you're just up against a small garrison and suddenly the pull out paratroopers, like you know they exist but it's still a shock. I mean okay it's a lot of mental hoops I'm jumping through now but yeah.
with how much garbage writers have to slog through I would bet it was a case of "can't be arsked to write anything better, boss already wants the CPS reports by monday"
@@LtPulsar Palpatine in the prequels wanted to cheat death and that was one of the reasons why he recruited Anakin. I think it'd be absurd if he actually couldnt cheat death
Not to mention the X-wings that just kind of... wait in hyperspace until they're given the signal to drop out before the final battle, however that worked.
Additionally JJ can’t even keep his own lore straight: he has Rey rip out the Compressor from the Falcon*, then with the lightspeed skipping the compressor catches fire and Rey is mad at them. On top of that in one of the books its supposedly explained that Rey hated the idea of a compressor. *its a compressor for the Hyperdrive. It compresses something, so it generates pressure on something (apparently the hyperdrive fuel line). Ripping it out without tools means you now have an open, pressurized fuel line inside your cockpit. You get vented with hyperdrive fuel while all the pressure in the line is dropped and no hyperdrive fuel reaches your engine. JJ can’t even design a minor plotpoint right. A plotpoint designed to show the competence of one character by showing the director’s incompetence at understanding what a word like “compressor” means and what that would mean for an engine.
@@FarseerAnimation I can imagine that working, but also a risky use of fuel. Why not just circle around a planet? There's a lot of space in space. They use unorthodox and risky maneuvers because they'r maverick rebels.
@@millenniumf1138 ok, but even when that stuff was written, it was never meant to dictate or supercede what the movies. that's like saying dante's inferno is a canon description of hell
33:18 This is something JJ has done before: his 2 Star Trek movies also feature the Enterprise crossing the entire galaxy nearly instantaneously. Warp Drive is famously slower than hyperdrive, but in Star Trek Into Darkness the Enterprise traveled from Qo'nos to Earth in a matter of minutes, meaning that at maximum Warp it's faster than the Millennium Falcon
JJ is an absolute mess of a director that creates films under cult-loved franchises for people who only know _of_ the franchise, but nothing about it. Think about that one for a bit.
You should hear what he said in an interview about the criticism of the shots of the planets being blown up by starkiller base in the force awakens. Dude doesn't give a fuck about scale or distance, world building or internal consistency. He thinks it doesn't matter. The visual is all that matters him. He's a hack.
Your point about the Falcon's hyperdrive being brittle reminds me of drag racing cars always breaking down and needing repair. Seems appropriate given its status as the fastest ship.
The "Power Outlet Socket" you mentioned Luke using on Dagobah. I think it's actually a power inlet/charging port. Though it can possibly also be used to output power. But I think Luke was actually supposed to be charging R2 in that scene, I'm pretty sure the glowing thing he plugged R2 into was a portable/emergency/survival generator, that was in the X-wing's survival kit. Especially since it was glowing before Luke plugged R2 into it.
RJ didn't break the universe first, JJ did. In The Force Awakens the Millennium Falcon got through Starkiller Base's shields by hyperspace skipping through them, though the name of the maneuver wasn't used yet then.
Would have been better if they just hand waived it that 'yeah, most can't but this is the falcon, and I did this during X smuggling run' showing that only Han could do something so suicidally stupid and brazen
Well no, light skipping is essentially blind jumping and manoeuvering within hyperspace through a planned route of entry and exit points, which is kinda mid as far as a strategy goes. What Han does is The Force Awakens is drop out of hyperspace at the last possible millisecond to bypass the shields, which is way more badass.
@@beaufryer2042 Gravity wells don't stop you from entering hyperspace, it's a safety feature on hyperdrives that don't let you jump from with a gravity well, and I feel like Han Solo is the kind of guy who would disable that component for a job
@@eanna3781 Then how do the interdictors work now? Established law was they act as miniature gravity wells. I’m sure if it were a mere safety situation then in a high risk military situation many would simply override them
I'd never noticed that at the Rebel meeting, Leia glances over towards Luke and he looks over to her as well. Nice subtle touch there Lucas. I thought I'd noticed everything by now. Your idea to use tread speeders on hilly sand dunes would look pretty sweet in a pursuit, plus it would be like a roller coaster, for the characters and the audience. Man these movies were so uninspired and lazy.
You mentioned someone on the crew saying something to JJ about why this or that doesn’t work in Star Wars… Ever heard what happened to production staffers working on JJ’s Trek films when they pointed out cannon or lore issues with anything??? They were fired. True story. Doug Drexler and John Eaves might know a thing or two about the specifics…
The TIE is pressurized, it just lacks the means to refresh the atmosphere inside, you only have the O2 you had when you sealed the hatch, so I hope you are alone and only taking short trips (or very short if you need to bring a friend) unless you have independent life support.
It also means you can sell it to aliens that use non-oxygen atmospheres. An X-Wing sold to an alien race that breathes chlorine has to be refit so the chlorine atmosphere doesn't corrode the interior. A TIE fighter sold to a chlorine-breathing race just needs to be stored in vacuum (or a non-reactive atmosphere) and the pilot can keep their chlorine atmosphere inside the suit.
@@toddkes5890 How do you keep electronics cool? you blow air across them that Air dose not have to be O2 rich just cooler than the electronics, you have fans blowing cabin air across the electronics it's a lot cheaper than making all the internal electronics Vacuum rated.
@@twistedyogert I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about the lore, but maybe components are liquid-cooled and the giant wings are meant to radiate that heat out into space? I don't see much reason to have those otherwise. I've personally never been a fan of the TIE or X-wing designs from a practical persepective (they're awesome from a coolness perspective). TIE fighters have these giant wing, fin things but they're not really meant to fly in atmospheres, so what are they there for? Surely placing all that mass so far away from the axis of rotation would make them less maneuverable, right? Maybe they're also placing some sort of thrusters on the wings to add extra torque to rotate faster? As for X-wings, if we look at WWII aircraft, nearly everything by the end of the war had the guns mounted as close as possible to the centerline simply because putting the guns out near the ends of the wings creates a ton of problems. Not only are you adding weight far away from the axis of rotation like the TIE fighter, you're also creating a massive aiming problem. If you point them all perfectly straight ahead and put your reticle on the enemy, your shots fly right past them since they're spaced exactly 1 X-wing apart. If you point them inwards slightly they cross but only at one point. Maybe you could add actuators to adjust the gun mount to account for the current distance from the target but that's more weight and complexity when you could just place the weapons abreast of the cockpit. Also, spreading the wings does nothing for you, from a physics persepctive. All you've done is reduce the structural integrity of the wings and make them more prone to flexing, especially in an atmosphere. Still super cool to look at though.
I am absolutely OK with the tracks if you say shit like "repulsors are more energy intensive". They just wanted to make some cool shit and they absolutely nailed it with the design. I absolutely love your fix with just giving them more favourable terrain to work with. The "catapult" feature can also keep you level, when going up an incline.
Nope, that falls flat when you realise cheap craft owned by extremely poor people use repulsor lifts without ever turning them off. Furthermore the cheapskate faction loved repulsor lift vehicles (cis/trade fed.) Furthermore repulsorlift vehicles were used by everyone prior to this film for recon troops. And recon vehicles need to be long ranged and thus energy efficient.
I think the threads would make sense to be justified by that catapult feature, like putting something like that on it might throw a small repulsor lift vehicle like that off balance or something.
It's pretty simple guys. Repulsor technology is just superior tech to wheels. Absolutely no moving parts on a vehicle, especially a vehicle used by people who can't afford repairs, is an absolute godsend.
give them repulsor inhibitor fields? that'd be interesting and give a use to wheels or treads. But nah interesting tech developments could never happen in star wars...
Also repulsor energy usage is probably exponentially proportional to weight, thus something like a sand crawler would need tracks, and that giant clone transport would need wheels, because theyre so massive that the energy usage isn't worth it. Smaller vehicles are fine because the energy usage is still low enough that all the other benefits completely outweigh that deficit. I would also guess that a repulsor's power would need to be adjustable for something like a cargo hauler that would be hauling around extremely various weights at all times. Something like that would just be added complication and severe safety risk where tracks are more straightforward and safe.
I'd imagine the treaded bikes would be somewhat practical if we assume the sandworms are a very widespread species, and the random and unssen patches of quicksand from their tunnels interact badly with repulsor tech. It would even explain the forward treads pullling a rear repulsor/catapult as an eject mechanism to throw riders clear of the quicksand/wreck.
True. But then you gotta think about the cost of the bike. You gotta assume this is the preferred way of travel for scouts/search teams, etc. Other than bases, or landing platforms, it's a proverbial minefield out there. 100% chance there is 1 bike per squad. Or 1 bike per scout. That's quite a bit of money to huck at supplying your troopers.
I love when you or anyone points out how a better scene writes itself with existing confines and even using the premise of the bad one. It's easy. It really is. Just a little bit more thought and a few more drafts and the writing is there. Execution of the scene can vary or be expensive or whatever, but the writing isn't that hard to just think through. I ended up rewriting all the Disney SW live action shows that way in DMs with my buddy lol. It lends itself well to a rewrite with minimal effort.
Woo fresh upload :)) Has been a blast learning more about SW while simultaneously enjoying seeing you wittily put down Disney Wars. Can't wait to see your content on RJ's work
29:09 For what it's worth, this is something that was established in episode 7, First Order TIEs are distinctly described as being equipped with both shields and hypderdrives, since the First Oder is a clandestine small remnant of the Empire that is made up of some of its best personnel and most advanced assets and have had decades to advance and improve their technology relatively unmolested. The idea for them is that, initially, at least, they would be a faction that had had the time to think and learn from the mistakes and shortcomings of the Empire, and use their more limited resources to put more quality into the forces they can make and maintain. So, personally at least, I don't really mind them being able to do that.
The ties are too small for all the stuff they claim to have. Like they have a turret, a hyperdrive, and engines and such all in a vessel not much larger than a tie. I can't even conceive it as possible to cram more stuff into a vessel so compact it's fuel tank is supposedly the size of a manhole.
@@lazzie7495 Honestly the issue is they reused the basic ass TIE frame for FO TIEs instead of making new ones - cause the thing is in Legends, for the most part TIEs with hyperdrives (which do exist) are clearly capable of fitting them - the TIE Avenger, the TIE Advanced x1 (ie Vader's TIE), TIE Defender, etc are all capable of hyperspace, they even have shields - but their clearly more rare, expensive, and generally special forces/occasion units. Meanwhile FO goes "hehe all our TIEs are better than the Empires, screw logistics, economics etc - we just better ;) "
@@lazzie7495 Those are TIE/SFs, you can look them up, they have massive (for a TIE) engines on the sides, they're essentially what happens overclock a TIE fighter. They sacrifice the TIE/LN and TIE/FO's maneuverability for incredible forward thrust, that's why they added the turret so they can keep their own tail clear, since they can't maneuver well enough to get most other fighters of their ass. This also adds enough space into the frame to store limited munitions. It also means they have the extra space internally for a shield generator similar to how a Defender has one. Of all the sins of the sequels the TIE/SF is not one of them.
You missed the point where weight decreases maneuverability in atmosphere, adds weight, reduces range and decreases maneuverability then huh? Shows absolutely no signs of these defects without referencing any increase to engine power. The TIE series is meant to be cheap and mass produced, and the first order just added a shield generator, hyperdrives, and more powerful guns, which requires a greater power source, which makes the damn thing even heavier and even more expensive to produce. At this point, they should be making an entirely new series of fighter. You could argue that it would be cheaper to do this, as we have seen many militaries IRL do this, but why bother to use that argument when Emperor He Who Has Somehow Returned has a fleet of star destroyers on standby and secret super bases with seemingly infinite resources lol. This is like taking an F-16 and adding two more main guns, A-10 style titanium armour protection in the cockpit, and giving it an extra large fuel tank (because we can't use a battery as a reference as it would make no sense) and expecting it to be just as fast and nimble. Nevermind the part where the F-16 is super duper expensive and cant be mass produced.
@@alexpayne2662 Are you under the impression that it's impossible to invent a power source with better power to weight ratios than previous modles? They did make an entire new series of fighter It's called the TIE/SF and whilst it's very similar to the TIE/LN it isn't the same fighter. The SF isn't just an LN with a turret, hyperdrive and shields. To try and keep your analogy, this is like taking the F-16 and giving it a bigger engine which has a greater power to weight ratio than before meaning you can add more munitions/armour to the hull and achieve the same performance as the base modle. The FO aren't the empire, they use a different doctrine when it comes to fighters and they lack the galactic recruitment pool of the Empire. They don't build their entire starfighter fleet around mass produced fighters because they can't do that.
This series of videos is my new addiction. I am absolutely enthralled by the way you put them together and mesh your criticism with humor. I really, really hope you continue to put them out for as long as you intend this series to go!
I think its also worth mentioning that jumping to light speed isn't like hopping into your car and stepping on the gas pedal. Momentum isn't coming into play since the people inside the ships aren't getting painted all over the walls ( like how that one guy does in The Expanse).
The ships could just be using the same tech that makes artificial gravity to accelerate everything in the ship uniformly. High Gs wouldn’t hurt you if all your organs were accelerating at the same time.
Hyperspace doesnt make you move faster. It makes the universe smalller around you to put it simply. It shortens the distance not speeds you up. Think of using the nether to moove faster in the overworld in minecraft. Also momentum doesnt really matter since they have inertial compensators.
@@robertharris6092 Hyperspace is a separate space. It doesn't make the universe smaller, or shortening distance. It's cool to write some fan theory or something, but don't phrase it like reality.
In my head cannon repulsorlifts are basically just tractor beams. They push themselves away from the ground but their strength decreases with distance/altitude which explains the height ceiling. Also you’d be able to set a constant distance for the vehicle to hug the ground at. A tractor beam wouldn’t affect anything between itself and its target, in this case the ground. It could even be set to target a deeper layer under the surface to avoid causing any disruption.
I really like this idea. Personally, I’d always thought of it as a retro-gravity device. Something that can somehow reverse its attraction to a gravity well. The issue I kept having with this was why it would stop working past a given point. But this, this makes sense.
Top notch breakdown of these very glaring problems. I started the video and saw the 30+ minute length and my first though was "I'll never sit through this whole thing, I already know where it's going," but you kept me engaged despite this the whole time. Cheers!
The funny thing is the Holdo Maneuver was very easy to fix and required a surprisingly little amount of thought to come up with: *It only worked because of the Hyperspace Tracker* Some interaction between the Tracker and the drive of the target can cause a catastrophic reaction It's so simple and explains why they... --did not try to do a covert mission to try to shut the tracker off --let every big ship except one be destroyed(to leave them with only *one* target) --can't reliably repeat it Combine that with the possibility of a spy and suddenly Holdo's seemingly idiotic plan would make sense. For bonus points, Rose could've been that spy, which would make everything she did in TLJ make tons of sense: --Stopping any rebels from escaping --Tagging along with Finn on that mission and general obsession with him in the beginning --Drawing unwanted attention down on themselves at every opportunity --Stopping Finn from destroying the First Order base-penetrator --The First Order capturing them out of seemingly nowhere --Their codebreaker having the knowledge of the plan in order to betray them, which he could not have possibly possessed
14:36 Ooooh the Half-Life 1 OST! Drums and Riffs is one of the best tracks from it, right there with the nuclear mission jam! A really cool surprise to hear it here!
In the old game, Empire at War, in the Rebellion campaign, they originally used the Z-95 starfighter, but due to the outdated nature of the design and its inability to dogfight the Imperial TIEs, they needed a replacement for it. Rebellion spies discovered the existence of a handful of prototype X-wings at an Imperial R&D facility. The Emporer rejected the design for mass production because of how expensive it would be to produce, considering its inclusion of a hyperdrive and life support systems. The Empire was going to destroy the prototypes, but the Rebellion sent a small infiltration team with a handful of pilots and promptly comandeered them, then started producing them themselves. I know this lore is not canon since the Disneyfication of Star Wars, but to this day, it is still my head-canon that this is the origin of the X-Wing
The EaW isnt exactly fully canon to old EU. What happened to X-wing is that designers of it defected and joined rebel alliance with the x-wing blueprints so you are not far off at all.
@@benfromthesewers1688 The designers defected but the Rebels still ahd to steal the initial production run (And delete files that could let the Imps look for weaknesses) So there ARE missions to get them out, the Empire comic has the more "Canon" version of the theft with Biggs Darklighter leading the team.
OMG to hear you reference Tau hopping through space brings warm feelings to my heart. That was my exact thought while watching that scene. It's the ONLY reason I forgave that hyperspace sequence - for the Tau'va.
Another great video! - Just wanted to mention that I distinctly remember reading that R2's taser was actually an arc welder, so I guess it could break the chain 🤷🏽. Also, floppy discs were commercially available in 1971.
Gotta say I love the presentation mixed with solid lore and observations on how to fix some bad writing! Thanks for giving me back a bit of hope for Star Wars!
Found this channel today, this content is amazing! I love your knowledge and approach to fixing these movies. Very good stuff, looking forward to the next instalment.
i'm really happy your videos are getting longer :D i love watching and listening to longer videos, and yours are very enjoyable. hope to keep seeing more!
JJ actually broke hyperspace all the way back in episode 7. Han says they can get past starkiller bases shields if they exit hyperspace past the shields, in the atmosphere. This would also be impossible, the ship would be torn out of hyperspace as soon as it entered the planets gravity well. Disney breaking spacetime is nothing new.
Great videos. As an old EU fan, I like all the technical details you go into regarding the technologies and how they work. Makes me want to pull out the old guidebooks.
I've wanted to use those gravity well traps to pull ships out of Hyper Space in my tabletop adventures, but haven't had a chance just yet. One day I will!
26:57 YOu could honestly get like 90% of the Holdo Manuver if she was targeting a ship with a Gravity well cone, but one aiming its cone at the shuttles because they know the Raddus is already empty and maybe even warming up its reactor for a self-destruct. She plots a course that intersects the cone right at the base, and Thrawn pincers herself into point-blank for a conventional-speed ram and self-destruct.
JJ and Hyperdrives + Planets was an issue already in the Force Awakens when the falcon is going to Starkiller base exiting hyperspace within atmosphere
About the hyperspace TIEs, the TIE S/F used by the First Order is an upgrade over the TIE L/N in every way, fitting the faction's "Less quantity, more quality" doctrine when compared to the Empire.
To fit the lore it has to be an upgraded version but this is only because the writing ignores the limitations of the TIE L/N and the capabilities of the new TIE have to be explained in post. If JJ wanted a better TIE he could have used the TIE Defender but he instead chose to use the basic form of the TIE L/N because he does not care about president in the SW universe. The defender is even canon as it's appeared in Rebels.
@@robertharris6092 well, They still gave the new fighter almost all of the expensive featured Defender had, so this new fighter should have been just as expensive.
@@hominid92 the thing is, "basic ties with Hyperdrives" isnt a new thing in star wars. there are examples of Tie interceptors(who for all intent and purpose are the same size as a regular tie for what they can acommodate in terms of equipment) with hyperdrives in legends
My interpretation of the Holdo Maneuver is two parts. One: it's not necessarily a _law of physics_ that you can't jump to lightspeed near a gravity well, it's an _engineering failsafe_ to prevent the danger caused by crashing into a mass shadow (which is a law-of-physics issue, but hyperdrives are designed to drop into realspace before then for safety). Case in point from Disney Wars VII, Han overriding the Falcon's nav-computer to manually exit hyperspace right within Starkiller Base's shields, while the normal failsafe would've dropped them out quite a bit further back from the gravity well. In this case, the failsafe was _overridden_ to go "fuck your interdiction, imma jump anyway". And two: jumping to hyperspace has a _run-up_ period, a brief distance where you're rapidly accelerating toward lightspeed in realspace, before you actually enter hyperspace. You don't go from velocity-zero straight into hyperspace. The collision happened during the run-up, while the ship was still in realspace and able to interact with (read: smash into at near-luminal velocity) normal matter.
My issues with Disney Wars' trilogy were never diversity, inclusivity, casting, or their plans to "subvert expectations". I didn't even care that they would break rules. It was that they completely ignored that any rules ever existed, in the first place. Decades of canon, not just ignored, but uncanonized. And now, the shows and series are doing what the movies should've done from the start, fleshing out the expanded universe that existed all along... some better than others, but that's a story for another time.
I know, old comment, still. The Expanded Universe were never "movie canon" anyway. A lot of the writing in The Expanded Universe makes JJ and Ryan seem like writing geniuses. Force sensitive rocks, a force sensitive droid that fries itself so R2-D2 would be chosen by Luke, because it felt the importance of R2, and R2s destiny, and far more terrible writing. I frankly prefer a "Expanded Universe is non-canon" over the kind of Lucas approach which was "Not really canon, but maybe, I might use something, but if it doesn't contradict you can kind of see it as canon, unless we overwrite it" The Expanded Universe was a mix of VERY different levels of writing quality, and when people talk about "Fleshing it out" they are talking about the good parts, ignoring there are tons of books, comics, etc, that are just straight up terrible.
You have done a wonderful job showcasing multiple issues that I have not often seen mentioned. I am curious as to how the planet's gravity well / hyperdrive shadow was supposed to interact with the Millennium Falcon during JJ's first movie. Particularly when Han and Chewbacca drive into the planet at Hyperspeed to bypass the planetary shielding. (Edit:) Should the Millennium Falcon have been stopped much earlier? Or did Han and Chewbacca actually just nail the timing?
There are several scenes in Starwars that show how far ships need to be before using the hyperdrive. I recommend the Hoth escape which shows several in succession.
I barely know anything about Star Wars (only got re-interested in the franchise because i’ve been playing fallen order. Yet this video made everything easy and clear to understand.
Thanks, that's very interesting to hear! It wasn't specifically written with that in mind, but it's a great way to tell if we're still making any sense. You should be able to understand the ideas, without having to memorise every line in the movies. -DZ
Well the through tone of this is that the power on the new star wars wheren't fans or had any lore master they listen to when scripting, and that is more from every fan with director knowledge wanted to watch not work on it. Or the general disregard for the old world building was just to damn high.
I found your channel yesterday and loved every video. I watched all three of the rise of Skywalker ones. And am so happy to see a new one the next day lol.
I'm loving all the Trek references. I'm serious, this is the reason I'm clicking the subscribe button. I personally refer to Trek while trying to explain Star Wars related things. In fact, I did so in a comment on one of your other videos today. About how everyone in Star Wars seems surprised about planet killing capital ships.... when every ship in Starfleet, at least TOS and onward, had the capability of destroying all life on a planet single handedly.
@@thebreadcircus I went to refresh my memory, on memory Alpha. In case you were wondering; It's Starfleet general order 24. The episode of TOS is called "A Taste of Armageddon". It's a pretty great episode. I remember growing up in the 90s, there was always some kind of Star Trek on TV. Just like I remember binge watching my uncle's Star Wars OT VHS box set (he had it on laser disk too, but I didn't know how to work that) in preparation for The Phantom Menace coming to theaters.
23:45 In Courtship of Princess Leia there seemed to be some possibility to VERY SLIGHTLY adjust course without dropping out, but it needs the Force, and that's also one of the EU novels with Luke in a more Superman mode.
At the 26:28 mark, there is mention of a Hyperspace Interdictor ship that had the job of either stopping a ship from entering hyperspace (HS) or pulling a ship out of HS. In Rogue One, Andor's 'U'wing goes to HS while still in atmosphere. This was explained away in that HS is possible in a gravity well IF ALL SHIPS SAFETY PROTOCOLS are removed / disabled. This now renders the Interdictor virtually useless pretty much straight away. Star Trek was the same with going to warp either in atmoshere or too near a habitable planet. It can be done but the consequences to the planets' inhabitants would be dire. In several TV episodes and movies it was done without anything happening to the planet they left.
JJ can't even look at a real world single track vehicle I.E. a snowmobile and go "oh the track goes in the back. A front track makes no sense because you still need a repulsor to hold up the weight of the rear. If you ever watch a video of a snowmobile you'll notice that it putts very little and sometimes no weight on the front skis, they spend most of there time on the rear track, especially when being driven aggressively.
Keep the content up. I was recommended this by the algorithm, your content is extremely interesting and plays perfectly into fans like myself who love random facts I would never need for a problem in my favorite IP
I'm really enjoying this series so far. Looking forward to hearing the rest of what you have to say about the rest of simple fixes to the Disney Wars... And then maybe some other Star Wars (or not!) media in the future?..
The Holdo maneuver takes place when the ship is just ABOUT to enter hyperspace, just going really goddamn fast but still technically in realspace so it's still able to affect other things in realspace.
Sourcebooks says the Supremacy hyperspace tracker is overclocked to be in real space and hyperspace at the same time. The easiest explanation why it works here but no anywhere else: She hit the hyperspace tracker of the Supremacy in hyperspace but since its also in realsapce at the same time, the impact of the collision happens in both hyper- and realspace.
@@leiferikson850 That's really interesting and a good explanation. Still not convinced a collision couldn't otherwise happen at the jump to lightspeed.
(Fair Warning: This comment is a bit long.) I found this channel recently and it's really fun see Episode 9 be ripped apart using established lore. I will say though that sometimes you transition from talking about what happens in the movie & what happens in your rewrite too smoothly, especially when going over more technical information. It'd be nice if there was a visual cue or maybe a slight restructuring of the video format to make it obvious when you're talking about the rewrite. The thing about Hyperspace is that because the movies don't go into detail, the casual audience member either only knows that "a computer makes calculations to avoid ramming into stuff" or doesn't remember anything at all so all the crazy shit they've done in the recent movies doesn't seem strange just the first time seeing it. It's only when you look outside of the movies and read about the inner workings of Hyperspace that you realize that not only is it actually complicated, the recent movies literally can't happen. I say this out of personal experience as I only learned about how Hyperspace works within the last 2 or 3 years. I hated the "holdo maneuver" back in 2017 because it made previous space battles pointless, I hate it now because it canonically wouldn't work like it did in the movie. On the other hand, it does allow us to say the Sequel Trilogy isn't canon not because of personal feelings but because the characters do things that are legitimately impossible to do in Star Wars. It'd be slightly better if George Lucas had done this because then it'd be a retcon instead of breaking canon, but only slightly. Lightspeed Skipping was awful because of the probability of Poe pulling it off successfully, one of the worst (or best?) examples of plot armor in a story. Anyways, great video excited to see what's next!
Well... George Lucas never explained how Hyperspace works... all we, the fans, had to go on about how it works based entirely on observations. I did some math... and hyperspace doesn't work as it is described by fans (who created the hyperspace cannon entries). Gravity Wells are based on Mass and Density. A huge mass, but low density, equates to low surface gravity. Take our sun. It currently has a surface gravity of ~23g (1g = 1 Earth Gravity at Sea Level [9.8m/s/s]). In a few billion years it will enter its final stage of its existence. It will lose about 15% of its current mass and expand past Earth's current orbit, giving it a surface gravity of ~0.0002g (~0.00196 m/s/s). Of course, if you go to what is currently the sun's surface then, you would experience gravity of about ~20g. So, the question is... at what point does the ship impact the star's gravity well... and at what point does the hyperspace safety measures kick the ship out of hyperspace to avoid ramming into the star? If it knocks the ship out at 1 Astronomical Unit (the average distance between Earth and the Sun), the ship would be _in_ the star...
The other advantage a montage could have is it could give you a brief view of the magnitude of operations going on to try to sus out whats going on, have a few short fight, maybe a few x wings shot down and then bring it together afterwards with some commemoration or something
They broke the Hyperspace rule first in Rogue One when they activated the hyperdrive in a planets atmosphere. I would say their is a good argument that they broke it also in ep. 7 also on Han arriving at Starkiller base. There is multiple examples in all the Disney movies that show they don't understand how Hyperspace work.
The reality is that they didn't. There's no evidence presented that hyperdrive can't work close to planets, it's just started. There's an obvious alternative for why interdictors work - the same computers that calculate the course take the ship out of hyperdrive to avoid colliding with a possible planet
@@lomiification There is evidence presented in Episodes V and I. Planetary blockades would have no use if hyperdrives could be used close to planetary bodies. In Episode V, an ion cannon is used to disable a Star Destroyer long enough to get transports and X-wings far enough from Hoth to jump to hyperspace. In Episode I, the queen's ship needed to run the blockade in order to escape from Naboo. There is no indication that the Imperial Navy had Immobilizers or Interdictors above Hoth or that the Lucrehulks above Naboo had any interdiction capabilities. These instances show that hyperdrives need to be out of the gravity well to work, otherwise why would they not just point the starships towards space and obviously away from any large object (planet, moon, blockading ship, etc.) and jump to hyperspace past any blockade.
@@lomiification It makes no sense to me that interdictors work using gravity wells because that would have lots of effects other than pulling ships out of hyperspace. Cheating the hyperdrive safety mechanisms really makes sense though.
I always knew the sequels were flawed, but as much as a lore nerd I consider myself, even I would've never thought to think of the logistics of tread-craft vs repulsorlifts, or if the troopers should use rocketpacks/jetpacks, Or if R2D2's ports are correct, etc. Part of me knew there were issues with these, but I couldn't put it into words. Great video, good things to consider when writing a film, book, etc.
Not JJ, but any ideas on how they could've done the "Holdo Maneuver"? They technically set that up in the previous movie when Han Solo was sneaking on to Starkiller base, by pointing out First Order shields have a special refresh rate that fails to block craft going at hyperspace. That actually explains both how the hyperspace ram worked, and why it isn't ubiquitous - other factions aren't stupid enough to leave such a devastating vulnerability in their shields. But, TFA was so forgettable that by the Holdo Maneuver, most of the audience just forgot about the previous technobabble and chalked it up to an unfilled plot hole. How would you have written this in such a way to give the audience the information they need, remind them of it, and not break pacing or the emotional moment?
@@ailius1520 It wouldn't just affect the First Order, but the Empire, the Republic, the CIS, the ancient Sith Empire, hell it would affect the damn Rakkatta. This legitimately is impossible. The Starkiller base scene was also stupid, stupid but forgivable and ignorable. A minor plot hole, an inconvenience. The Holdo Manuever is death to the Star Wars universe. It is a death to the very idea of Star Wars's star wars. It doesn't just break how Star Wars hyperspace works, as you're basically intangible, you skim into another dimension, in hyperspace. It breaks military theory, military technology, how war is waged, and it is brought in as the centerpiece of the movie. It was meant to be the spectacular shot, it is instead the coupe de grace of the film against Star Wars.
There was once upon a time and somewhere on the internet a theory: The 'Hyperspace Tracker' was in fact a piece of hyperdrive technology itself. The Holdo maneuver was just plain stupid and would NEVER work; until in a freak case of force serendipity this beyond bleeding edge piece of technology demonstrated it's achilles heel. If you drive a ship !IN HYPERSPACE! right at it, it will react catastrophically by being dragged along !AT HYPERSPACE SPEEDS! in !REALSPACE! Thus: The Holdo maneuver was a completely USELESS gesture( ...and in fact may have been aiming to miss the mega and was pulled in by the tracker). However, though she, and the Raddus, hit a mas shadow and died a completely ignoble and fruitless death her action did drag the tracker violently through the fleet. In sum: we didn't see the Raddus kamikazi, we saw just a relatively tiny sensor system yanked though real space at MANY light years per minute... and the Raddus being uselessly pulverized in hyperspace against a mass shadow too.
I stand by, every non-trivial issue people have with episode 8 can be *directly* tied to a problem created in episode 7. Case in point, in atmosphere jumps was something JJ did first... JJ killed Star Wars and stuffed it in a corner. RJ pulled it out of the corner and tried to dress it up and put it in a coffin. JJ then blamed RJ for killing it, took it out of the coffin, did a dance over it and then took a dump on it.
I somewhat disagree. JJ abused Star Wars, beat it in the head, and stuffed it in the corner. RJ pulled it out of the corner, propped it on a stage, and then shot it in the back of the head. JJ then took it out and beat the corpse until he broke his own hand on its jaw, then threw it in the river. RJ was worse than JJ, but not by much.
@@АлексейМомот-щ7о Could have, yes. But doing so would have made him one of the best directors ever. I don't think it can be understated just how much 7 messed up the trajectory of 8 and 9. It left 8 with nothing good. All of the new characters had no personality, the stakes had been jumped to 11, the villains had been made worse than the Empire while being shown to be more incompetent and Luke was shown to have disappeared for no good reason. So he basically had to do two movies worth of characterization when the characters are not in the same location, bring the stakes back to a more sane level while dropping the danger of the first order to match their incompetence *and* run with explaining why Luke disappeared... None of those were done amazingly well, some of them were done ok and others done poorly. But in order to do *any* of them amazingly well, you would expect an entire movie around just that one point.
@@pubcle Ok, give me a non-trivial thing from 8 that you had a problem with. I'll play ball and show you how it was actually a problem that already existed.
@@SirSpence99 Doesn't matter that most of the issues already existed in some degree, RJ took them and worsened them a dozen fold. Yes, hyperspace's exact rules were partially ignored and broken in the approach to Star Killer Base, but where that is an inconvenient pothole the Supremacy scene is a universe-shattering death nail. Where Luke was poorly set up and his position as a galactic hermit didn't make much sense, RJ turned it into a complete betrayal of everything Luke was without sufficient justification. I am by no means defending JJ, he had no idea how to run things and already betrayed the character progression and story of Han Solo while creating a true Mary Sue that ignores how Jedi training and the Force work. RJ just did everything even worse. I was already out of the sequels and refusing to give a single cent by the end of TFA. I know how horrible JJ was from the beginning. RJ was also atrocious for the franchise though, he didn't dress it up for a send off, it was a messy, irredeemable execution. Everything from the way the pacing and villains were handled to the way the Force, the training, Luke Skywalker, the entire main conflict with the fuel and speed being utterly nonsensical, even ignoring the lore problems the entire structure is not good story telling and a third of the movie is a disconnected mess of hamfisted commentary with no relevance to the plot.
To be at least a bit fair to the Holdo Maneuver, it's pretty clear that it struck the ship during the *acceleration* into hyperspace, not while *inside* hyperspace, so I think it'd still be in the range of physical possibility.
I do enjoy your old school lore dump nerdom, its nice to see the old guard of hobbies and sci-fi talk in detail about how things work in universe. Also the "Mars God of war" bit with the Venture Bros reference was great.
I have just watched all of your Rise of Skywalker videos. all the logic is just perfect, you are from my point of view George Lucas. critiquing JJ's and RJ's attempt to make a better version of star wars and failing to do so. I remember the "Hyperspace Skimming" part in the cinema and I could not believe it. The second Poe did it, my memory flashed back to Han in A New Hope... saying you cant just punch in random co-ords and make the jump. "Fans" of the Sequels will tell me that it was cannon right from the beginning and I knew it wasn't. Some fans even told me that Chewie or Han Bypassed something in the falcon to prevent this... but that sounds like something JJ or RJ would say as it completely contradicts the original trilogy. Also about the First Order TIE Fighters. I read a book once The Force Awakens came out about all of the new tech in the "New Star Wars Universe" (Disney Wars) and realised that JJ was on the writing team. In the book it specified that the TIE Fighters were upgraded with Shield Generators, A Back Gunner, Hyperdrive and of course... Long and Shortrange Missiles. Realising this I noticed that JJ basically just mashed up the TIE Fighter, TIE Advanced, TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor into one ship basically to make it look like the First Order had evolved from the Empire... Without realising that NORMAL TIE FIGHTERS never had these to begin with. After all of this research done on the Sequels... its almost like JJ and RJ just decided... to hell with Lucas, I can do it better. And did not. I do not hate the sequels as much as many other fans do. But I still think that the Sequels could be much better if Lucas did them instead, but then again according to Lucas there was never supposed to be a 7, 8, 9 anyway... and now some sources are trying to say that there could be a 10, 11 and 12. Anyway... thanks for the awesome videos! very informative... Rant over :)
@@assassinproduction1 Its one of many many gems, goddam what a great show the Venture bros was / is - the dark s7 is from s3 e10 - The Lepidopterists - but the end of season 4 has the best end of season payoff I can recall. Doc Hammer and Christopher McCulloch showing everyone how its done. Its a shame they cant all be as good, now I got the dart monkey on my back I think I know what to watch next.
31:35 Actually in Legends they saw EXTENSIVE use after exiting the prototype stage and stayed in service into the conflicts with the Yuuzhan Vong and beyond, even Rogue Squadron got their hands on some Defenders at one point.
It just doesn't make sense for them to be surprised, it's really not unheard of in Star Wars, just rather uncommon, because you basically strap a bomb to yourself in order to fly around and stuff, so most people just didn't dare to use them. But never before in the Star Wars movies was anyone surprised by some guy suddenly taking off by the means of a jetpack.
the holdo maneuver can be mitigated by three additions: - the hyperspace tracker has to hold open a hyperspace rift and point its probe though that - holdo aims at the trackers signature for the jump - the ship colides with the probe in hyperspace and the explosion is forced into realspace through the trackers still open rift.
23:04 Yes, but the ship’s not in hyperspace yet when it hits the Supremacy. In every piece of Star Wars media, going into hyperspace is a multi-stage process-the coordinates are set, the hyperdrive is powered up, the ship’s propulsion system is activated in real space, the ship accelerates TO LIGHTSPEED, and then the ship drops into hyperspace. The Holdo Maneuver entails striking the Supremacy with the Raddis’s mass once it is accelerated to relativistic speeds as part of the process of hyperspeed travel. Yes, this is canon-as you cite, Han Solo famously said the Millennium Falcon makes “point five past lightspeed” in 1977. 23:52 I also don’t really get this as criticism on Rian Johnson… yes, when you want to survive and get anywhere you have to precalculate before you jump to lightspeed, but that wasn’t part of Holdo’s plan, and we absolutely have evidence jumping to lightspeed is possible without it-navigating the Unknown Regions for example REQUIRES you don’t use a navicomputer because the hyperspace lanes through those regions are unreliable. What JJ does differently is say “locations don’t matter, geek shit don’t matter, it’s not real space moron”-which is actually exactly the opposite of what Rian does.
At 22:32, the narrator references Cliff Richard *Jr* and the Shadows. This can only be a wonderfully esoteric reference to the 1966 film Thunderbirds Are Go.
As an added note. There are 2 types of "hover" tech in Star Wars lore, and have been for a very long time. One that works off repelling against mass (repulsor lifts) and ones that repel against gravitational waves. Grav packs were used by clone units, the same way jet packs, rocket packs and repulsor packs were. But of course they require a gravity field. Either on a Planet, or artificial. Repulsors require mass to push off against, and so don't need a strong gravity field. But off also cannot go very high. Repulsors can also spread their weight across a greater surface area than their vehicle's profile, and they spread their weight over mass below the ground too. Not just the layer of atoms on the surface. From an out of universe physics explanation. One uses gravity waves, the other generates them.
![แฉกลโกงงานวัด 2024 [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.106 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/taC5dpP3HXA/mqdefault.jpg)
So at some point, JJ said that shields can't work in atmosphere? Ignoring that it appeared as Gungan shields or Droidekas, TRoS literally showed shield interaction with the treadspeeder itself and Tantive IV burning some leaves or something when it took off.
Whilst the resistance is discussing their attack plan after Rey started to show them a path to Exegol, it is said that the fleet of Xystons can't activate their shields until leaving the atmosphere. It is easy to misinterpret as a general fact, but it was said in context of being a quirk of Exegol.
Just a miniscule nitpick about the video if any.
The rebel base on hoth in Empire is described to have shields, lol. kinda insane that JJ wrote this
He's referring to shields covering the entire atmosphere. Even then he's wrong since Episode V and Rogue One proved otherwise.
@@KingKayro87 Incorrect. This point of confusion started with Bread Circus interpreting the conversation of my previous comment as JJ declaring all shields can't work in atmosphere in his "The Rise of Skywalker: The ONE Good Moment Could've Been Great" video at 4:40. But
this doesn't change the points made in said video or demerit this one.
@@toastyrules8221 Yeah the only thing I could possibly see this even making sense would be Exegol having a nebula-like atmosphere, since it's established at least in legends that Nebulae mess with shields a lot.
My biggest problem with "they fly now?" is that finn is surprised, he used to be a stormtrooper and you want to tell me he never saw another stormtrooper with a jetpack?
He used to be a stormtrooper janitor. The most he saw until the beginning of Episode 7 was dirty toilets.
Jokes aside, that whole bit is ridiculous.
Unless C-3P0 just got memory wiped before that mission, there's no way he'd have 0 knowledge of First Order military tactics
In the first issue of the Poe Dameron comics, Poe fights stormtroopers with jetpacks.
And yeah with Finn, he grew up a stormtrooper. Him being surprised is the most silly of all.
@@kodyshaw6991I always thought of First Order Stormtroopers like the Marines, they fulfill all or most of the roles in the organization, from basic infantry to pilots and special operations but in the end all of them are trained riflemen, even if Finn wasn't selected for the jet troopers program he was probably aware of its existence.
I like to imagine it was some prototype of an idea or simply specialized troops for that planet.
I mean a stormtrooper grunt stationed on some jungle planet would probably be in awe when moved to an ice planet and seeing an AT-AT....
but that said he must have known.
I mean a US soldier sat in some desert camp probably doesn't really know about the intricacies of the US hovercraft program or something like that...
but anyway it's a great quote I still sometimes use lol so
@@underarmbowlingincidentof1981 It'd be wierd if it was a prototype though, mainly because jetpacks are nothing new. The Mandalorians obviously used them commonly, but so did the Republic and Empire. And Finn, being a part of the First Order (even just as a janitor), would have probably studied military tactics from history.
@@Kilovotis true...
maybe its a very specialized thing which normal people don't see often. I mean imagine you think you're just up against a small garrison and suddenly the pull out paratroopers, like you know they exist but it's still a shock.
I mean okay it's a lot of mental hoops I'm jumping through now but yeah.
"Somehow, Palpatine returned," Still can't believe that some writer wrote that down and thought. "Mmm yes my magnum opus"
with how much garbage writers have to slog through I would bet it was a case of "can't be arsked to write anything better, boss already wants the CPS reports by monday"
Thats a completely logical line for Poe to say. Idk how you can consider that dumb
@@abdullahyasinylmaz9786 Right... 🤔
@@abdullahyasinylmaz9786 You are totally missing the point. The line itself is logical, yes, but the reason for the line being said? Absurd.
@@LtPulsar Palpatine in the prequels wanted to cheat death and that was one of the reasons why he recruited Anakin. I think it'd be absurd if he actually couldnt cheat death
JJ broke hyperspace lore in TFA with the whole “jump past the planetary shield” thing with the Falcon and Death Star 3.
Not to mention the X-wings that just kind of... wait in hyperspace until they're given the signal to drop out before the final battle, however that worked.
Yeah, in the old canon three Star Destroyers exploded against the Executor's shield in the old Marvel comics.
Additionally JJ can’t even keep his own lore straight: he has Rey rip out the Compressor from the Falcon*, then with the lightspeed skipping the compressor catches fire and Rey is mad at them. On top of that in one of the books its supposedly explained that Rey hated the idea of a compressor.
*its a compressor for the Hyperdrive. It compresses something, so it generates pressure on something (apparently the hyperdrive fuel line). Ripping it out without tools means you now have an open, pressurized fuel line inside your cockpit. You get vented with hyperdrive fuel while all the pressure in the line is dropped and no hyperdrive fuel reaches your engine. JJ can’t even design a minor plotpoint right. A plotpoint designed to show the competence of one character by showing the director’s incompetence at understanding what a word like “compressor” means and what that would mean for an engine.
@@FarseerAnimation I can imagine that working, but also a risky use of fuel. Why not just circle around a planet? There's a lot of space in space. They use unorthodox and risky maneuvers because they'r maverick rebels.
@@millenniumf1138 ok, but even when that stuff was written, it was never meant to dictate or supercede what the movies. that's like saying dante's inferno is a canon description of hell
33:18 This is something JJ has done before: his 2 Star Trek movies also feature the Enterprise crossing the entire galaxy nearly instantaneously. Warp Drive is famously slower than hyperdrive, but in Star Trek Into Darkness the Enterprise traveled from Qo'nos to Earth in a matter of minutes, meaning that at maximum Warp it's faster than the Millennium Falcon
At that point it stops acting like a warp drive and more like a worm hole. JJ and team are idiots.
JJ is an absolute mess of a director that creates films under cult-loved franchises for people who only know _of_ the franchise, but nothing about it.
Think about that one for a bit.
regular warp drive in JJ Trek: Faster than slipstream and transwarp drive combined. Hell, it's possibly faster than the Bajoran Wormhole!
You should hear what he said in an interview about the criticism of the shots of the planets being blown up by starkiller base in the force awakens. Dude doesn't give a fuck about scale or distance, world building or internal consistency. He thinks it doesn't matter. The visual is all that matters him. He's a hack.
@@ceilyurie856 Even Ludicrous Speed can't keep up with it. lol
Your point about the Falcon's hyperdrive being brittle reminds me of drag racing cars always breaking down and needing repair. Seems appropriate given its status as the fastest ship.
pretty much, like effectively the Millennium Falcon is an old delivery van with an F1 engine in it
@@plazasta Sorta like the equivalent of the Espace F1 or Transit Supervan?
@@chazzcoolidge2654 pretty much. Either that or, to a certain degree, an AMC Gremlin
Very fitting giving the reason Ham Solo has a hot rod is because Lucas enjoyed Hot Rods himself. Han is basically a bootlegger in a suped up T bucket.
@@MALICEM12More like a semi truck without the trailer. Maybe there's a naval equivalent that's better
You put 10 times more thought into this movie than either Disney or JJ Abrams ever did.
Brra Brra BlaaBllaam only works for money , not for fans !!!
The "Power Outlet Socket" you mentioned Luke using on Dagobah. I think it's actually a power inlet/charging port. Though it can possibly also be used to output power. But I think Luke was actually supposed to be charging R2 in that scene, I'm pretty sure the glowing thing he plugged R2 into was a portable/emergency/survival generator, that was in the X-wing's survival kit. Especially since it was glowing before Luke plugged R2 into it.
Luke says "Ready for some power?" to R2 just before plugging in.
Right you are, the dialogue does confirm that. The power droid segue would work better that way, too. -DZ
The novelisation talks about a mini fusion reactor he's using there on Dagobah in Episode 4 🙂
This video is a delicious mix of retainer bending examination of lore and Adult Swim levels of self aware snarky comedy. Well played.
RJ didn't break the universe first, JJ did. In The Force Awakens the Millennium Falcon got through Starkiller Base's shields by hyperspace skipping through them, though the name of the maneuver wasn't used yet then.
Would have been better if they just hand waived it that 'yeah, most can't but this is the falcon, and I did this during X smuggling run' showing that only Han could do something so suicidally stupid and brazen
Well no, light skipping is essentially blind jumping and manoeuvering within hyperspace through a planned route of entry and exit points, which is kinda mid as far as a strategy goes.
What Han does is The Force Awakens is drop out of hyperspace at the last possible millisecond to bypass the shields, which is way more badass.
@@eanna3781They literally jump in and out of gravity wells. He fully broke the lore for minimal pay off.
@@beaufryer2042 Gravity wells don't stop you from entering hyperspace, it's a safety feature on hyperdrives that don't let you jump from with a gravity well, and I feel like Han Solo is the kind of guy who would disable that component for a job
@@eanna3781 Then how do the interdictors work now? Established law was they act as miniature gravity wells. I’m sure if it were a mere safety situation then in a high risk military situation many would simply override them
I'd never noticed that at the Rebel meeting, Leia glances over towards Luke and he looks over to her as well. Nice subtle touch there Lucas. I thought I'd noticed everything by now. Your idea to use tread speeders on hilly sand dunes would look pretty sweet in a pursuit, plus it would be like a roller coaster, for the characters and the audience. Man these movies were so uninspired and lazy.
You mentioned someone on the crew saying something to JJ about why this or that doesn’t work in Star Wars… Ever heard what happened to production staffers working on JJ’s Trek films when they pointed out cannon or lore issues with anything??? They were fired. True story. Doug Drexler and John Eaves might know a thing or two about the specifics…
That explains a lot.
That’s not good.
The TIE is pressurized, it just lacks the means to refresh the atmosphere inside, you only have the O2 you had when you sealed the hatch, so I hope you are alone and only taking short trips (or very short if you need to bring a friend) unless you have independent life support.
It also means you can sell it to aliens that use non-oxygen atmospheres. An X-Wing sold to an alien race that breathes chlorine has to be refit so the chlorine atmosphere doesn't corrode the interior. A TIE fighter sold to a chlorine-breathing race just needs to be stored in vacuum (or a non-reactive atmosphere) and the pilot can keep their chlorine atmosphere inside the suit.
@@toddkes5890 How do you keep electronics cool? you blow air across them that Air dose not have to be O2 rich just cooler than the electronics, you have fans blowing cabin air across the electronics it's a lot cheaper than making all the internal electronics Vacuum rated.
@@glenmcinnes4824 If you want to blow corrosive chlorine across the electronics in a high-tech fighter, go right ahead.
@@toddkes5890 Seal them and just have nitrogen blown across them in a loop.
@@twistedyogert I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about the lore, but maybe components are liquid-cooled and the giant wings are meant to radiate that heat out into space? I don't see much reason to have those otherwise. I've personally never been a fan of the TIE or X-wing designs from a practical persepective (they're awesome from a coolness perspective).
TIE fighters have these giant wing, fin things but they're not really meant to fly in atmospheres, so what are they there for? Surely placing all that mass so far away from the axis of rotation would make them less maneuverable, right? Maybe they're also placing some sort of thrusters on the wings to add extra torque to rotate faster?
As for X-wings, if we look at WWII aircraft, nearly everything by the end of the war had the guns mounted as close as possible to the centerline simply because putting the guns out near the ends of the wings creates a ton of problems. Not only are you adding weight far away from the axis of rotation like the TIE fighter, you're also creating a massive aiming problem. If you point them all perfectly straight ahead and put your reticle on the enemy, your shots fly right past them since they're spaced exactly 1 X-wing apart. If you point them inwards slightly they cross but only at one point. Maybe you could add actuators to adjust the gun mount to account for the current distance from the target but that's more weight and complexity when you could just place the weapons abreast of the cockpit. Also, spreading the wings does nothing for you, from a physics persepctive. All you've done is reduce the structural integrity of the wings and make them more prone to flexing, especially in an atmosphere.
Still super cool to look at though.
I am absolutely OK with the tracks if you say shit like "repulsors are more energy intensive". They just wanted to make some cool shit and they absolutely nailed it with the design.
I absolutely love your fix with just giving them more favourable terrain to work with. The "catapult" feature can also keep you level, when going up an incline.
Nope, that falls flat when you realise cheap craft owned by extremely poor people use repulsor lifts without ever turning them off.
Furthermore the cheapskate faction loved repulsor lift vehicles (cis/trade fed.)
Furthermore repulsorlift vehicles were used by everyone prior to this film for recon troops. And recon vehicles need to be long ranged and thus energy efficient.
I think the threads would make sense to be justified by that catapult feature, like putting something like that on it might throw a small repulsor lift vehicle like that off balance or something.
It's pretty simple guys. Repulsor technology is just superior tech to wheels. Absolutely no moving parts on a vehicle, especially a vehicle used by people who can't afford repairs, is an absolute godsend.
give them repulsor inhibitor fields? that'd be interesting and give a use to wheels or treads.
But nah interesting tech developments could never happen in star wars...
Also repulsor energy usage is probably exponentially proportional to weight, thus something like a sand crawler would need tracks, and that giant clone transport would need wheels, because theyre so massive that the energy usage isn't worth it.
Smaller vehicles are fine because the energy usage is still low enough that all the other benefits completely outweigh that deficit.
I would also guess that a repulsor's power would need to be adjustable for something like a cargo hauler that would be hauling around extremely various weights at all times. Something like that would just be added complication and severe safety risk where tracks are more straightforward and safe.
I'd imagine the treaded bikes would be somewhat practical if we assume the sandworms are a very widespread species, and the random and unssen patches of quicksand from their tunnels interact badly with repulsor tech.
It would even explain the forward treads pullling a rear repulsor/catapult as an eject mechanism to throw riders clear of the quicksand/wreck.
Like the Quicksand is too thin to actually be a solid for hover bikes to keep level to rest of the ground.
That actually makes sense yeah
True. But then you gotta think about the cost of the bike. You gotta assume this is the preferred way of travel for scouts/search teams, etc. Other than bases, or landing platforms, it's a proverbial minefield out there.
100% chance there is 1 bike per squad. Or 1 bike per scout.
That's quite a bit of money to huck at supplying your troopers.
I love when you or anyone points out how a better scene writes itself with existing confines and even using the premise of the bad one. It's easy. It really is. Just a little bit more thought and a few more drafts and the writing is there. Execution of the scene can vary or be expensive or whatever, but the writing isn't that hard to just think through.
I ended up rewriting all the Disney SW live action shows that way in DMs with my buddy lol. It lends itself well to a rewrite with minimal effort.
Woo fresh upload :)) Has been a blast learning more about SW while simultaneously enjoying seeing you wittily put down Disney Wars. Can't wait to see your content on RJ's work
this guy is internet historian but star wars. i love it.
Perfect timing. I just discovered the channel a few days ago and watched all 3 vids in the series and was bummed that there weren't any more. Thanks!
29:09 For what it's worth, this is something that was established in episode 7, First Order TIEs are distinctly described as being equipped with both shields and hypderdrives, since the First Oder is a clandestine small remnant of the Empire that is made up of some of its best personnel and most advanced assets and have had decades to advance and improve their technology relatively unmolested. The idea for them is that, initially, at least, they would be a faction that had had the time to think and learn from the mistakes and shortcomings of the Empire, and use their more limited resources to put more quality into the forces they can make and maintain. So, personally at least, I don't really mind them being able to do that.
The ties are too small for all the stuff they claim to have. Like they have a turret, a hyperdrive, and engines and such all in a vessel not much larger than a tie. I can't even conceive it as possible to cram more stuff into a vessel so compact it's fuel tank is supposedly the size of a manhole.
@@lazzie7495 Honestly the issue is they reused the basic ass TIE frame for FO TIEs instead of making new ones - cause the thing is in Legends, for the most part TIEs with hyperdrives (which do exist) are clearly capable of fitting them - the TIE Avenger, the TIE Advanced x1 (ie Vader's TIE), TIE Defender, etc are all capable of hyperspace, they even have shields - but their clearly more rare, expensive, and generally special forces/occasion units.
Meanwhile FO goes "hehe all our TIEs are better than the Empires, screw logistics, economics etc - we just better ;) "
@@lazzie7495 Those are TIE/SFs, you can look them up, they have massive (for a TIE) engines on the sides, they're essentially what happens overclock a TIE fighter. They sacrifice the TIE/LN and TIE/FO's maneuverability for incredible forward thrust, that's why they added the turret so they can keep their own tail clear, since they can't maneuver well enough to get most other fighters of their ass. This also adds enough space into the frame to store limited munitions. It also means they have the extra space internally for a shield generator similar to how a Defender has one. Of all the sins of the sequels the TIE/SF is not one of them.
You missed the point where weight decreases maneuverability in atmosphere, adds weight, reduces range and decreases maneuverability then huh? Shows absolutely no signs of these defects without referencing any increase to engine power. The TIE series is meant to be cheap and mass produced, and the first order just added a shield generator, hyperdrives, and more powerful guns, which requires a greater power source, which makes the damn thing even heavier and even more expensive to produce. At this point, they should be making an entirely new series of fighter. You could argue that it would be cheaper to do this, as we have seen many militaries IRL do this, but why bother to use that argument when Emperor He Who Has Somehow Returned has a fleet of star destroyers on standby and secret super bases with seemingly infinite resources lol. This is like taking an F-16 and adding two more main guns, A-10 style titanium armour protection in the cockpit, and giving it an extra large fuel tank (because we can't use a battery as a reference as it would make no sense) and expecting it to be just as fast and nimble. Nevermind the part where the F-16 is super duper expensive and cant be mass produced.
@@alexpayne2662 Are you under the impression that it's impossible to invent a power source with better power to weight ratios than previous modles?
They did make an entire new series of fighter It's called the TIE/SF and whilst it's very similar to the TIE/LN it isn't the same fighter. The SF isn't just an LN with a turret, hyperdrive and shields.
To try and keep your analogy, this is like taking the F-16 and giving it a bigger engine which has a greater power to weight ratio than before meaning you can add more munitions/armour to the hull and achieve the same performance as the base modle.
The FO aren't the empire, they use a different doctrine when it comes to fighters and they lack the galactic recruitment pool of the Empire. They don't build their entire starfighter fleet around mass produced fighters because they can't do that.
"Palpatine was in the Amazon researching spiders with my mom right before she died" greatest line in Cinema.
This series of videos is my new addiction. I am absolutely enthralled by the way you put them together and mesh your criticism with humor. I really, really hope you continue to put them out for as long as you intend this series to go!
I think its also worth mentioning that jumping to light speed isn't like hopping into your car and stepping on the gas pedal. Momentum isn't coming into play since the people inside the ships aren't getting painted all over the walls ( like how that one guy does in The Expanse).
The ships could just be using the same tech that makes artificial gravity to accelerate everything in the ship uniformly. High Gs wouldn’t hurt you if all your organs were accelerating at the same time.
Hyperspace doesnt make you move faster. It makes the universe smalller around you to put it simply. It shortens the distance not speeds you up. Think of using the nether to moove faster in the overworld in minecraft. Also momentum doesnt really matter since they have inertial compensators.
@@robertharris6092 Hyperspace is a separate space. It doesn't make the universe smaller, or shortening distance.
It's cool to write some fan theory or something, but don't phrase it like reality.
@@SioxerNikita its a seperate dimension which is more compact than real space.
In my head cannon repulsorlifts are basically just tractor beams. They push themselves away from the ground but their strength decreases with distance/altitude which explains the height ceiling. Also you’d be able to set a constant distance for the vehicle to hug the ground at. A tractor beam wouldn’t affect anything between itself and its target, in this case the ground. It could even be set to target a deeper layer under the surface to avoid causing any disruption.
I really like this idea. Personally, I’d always thought of it as a retro-gravity device. Something that can somehow reverse its attraction to a gravity well. The issue I kept having with this was why it would stop working past a given point. But this, this makes sense.
Your Videos are actually really interesting to watch! A feat, not many creators on this platform accomplish
Top notch breakdown of these very glaring problems. I started the video and saw the 30+ minute length and my first though was "I'll never sit through this whole thing, I already know where it's going," but you kept me engaged despite this the whole time. Cheers!
The funny thing is the Holdo Maneuver was very easy to fix and required a surprisingly little amount of thought to come up with:
*It only worked because of the Hyperspace Tracker*
Some interaction between the Tracker and the drive of the target can cause a catastrophic reaction
It's so simple and explains why they...
--did not try to do a covert mission to try to shut the tracker off
--let every big ship except one be destroyed(to leave them with only *one* target)
--can't reliably repeat it
Combine that with the possibility of a spy and suddenly Holdo's seemingly idiotic plan would make sense.
For bonus points, Rose could've been that spy, which would make everything she did in TLJ make tons of sense:
--Stopping any rebels from escaping
--Tagging along with Finn on that mission and general obsession with him in the beginning
--Drawing unwanted attention down on themselves at every opportunity
--Stopping Finn from destroying the First Order base-penetrator
--The First Order capturing them out of seemingly nowhere
--Their codebreaker having the knowledge of the plan in order to betray them, which he could not have possibly possessed
14:36 Ooooh the Half-Life 1 OST! Drums and Riffs is one of the best tracks from it, right there with the nuclear mission jam! A really cool surprise to hear it here!
In the old game, Empire at War, in the Rebellion campaign, they originally used the Z-95 starfighter, but due to the outdated nature of the design and its inability to dogfight the Imperial TIEs, they needed a replacement for it. Rebellion spies discovered the existence of a handful of prototype X-wings at an Imperial R&D facility. The Emporer rejected the design for mass production because of how expensive it would be to produce, considering its inclusion of a hyperdrive and life support systems. The Empire was going to destroy the prototypes, but the Rebellion sent a small infiltration team with a handful of pilots and promptly comandeered them, then started producing them themselves.
I know this lore is not canon since the Disneyfication of Star Wars, but to this day, it is still my head-canon that this is the origin of the X-Wing
The EaW isnt exactly fully canon to old EU.
What happened to X-wing is that designers of it defected and joined rebel alliance with the x-wing blueprints so you are not far off at all.
Designers defecting was in WEG Rebel sourcebook I'd assume and EaW addapted it to games mechanic dwo decades later.
@@benfromthesewers1688 The designers defected but the Rebels still ahd to steal the initial production run (And delete files that could let the Imps look for weaknesses) So there ARE missions to get them out, the Empire comic has the more "Canon" version of the theft with Biggs Darklighter leading the team.
This is an excellent series and I can see why your channel is gaining traction. I'll be watching your career with great interest.
OMG to hear you reference Tau hopping through space brings warm feelings to my heart.
That was my exact thought while watching that scene. It's the ONLY reason I forgave that hyperspace sequence - for the Tau'va.
Another great video!
- Just wanted to mention that I distinctly remember reading that R2's taser was actually an arc welder, so I guess it could break the chain 🤷🏽. Also, floppy discs were commercially available in 1971.
Gotta say I love the presentation mixed with solid lore and observations on how to fix some bad writing! Thanks for giving me back a bit of hope for Star Wars!
Found this channel today, this content is amazing! I love your knowledge and approach to fixing these movies. Very good stuff, looking forward to the next instalment.
i'm really happy your videos are getting longer :D i love watching and listening to longer videos, and yours are very enjoyable. hope to keep seeing more!
JJ actually broke hyperspace all the way back in episode 7. Han says they can get past starkiller bases shields if they exit hyperspace past the shields, in the atmosphere. This would also be impossible, the ship would be torn out of hyperspace as soon as it entered the planets gravity well. Disney breaking spacetime is nothing new.
Playing the portal, deserts of Kharak, and half life osts back to back really got me feeling nostalgic. Great choices.
Great videos. As an old EU fan, I like all the technical details you go into regarding the technologies and how they work. Makes me want to pull out the old guidebooks.
I've wanted to use those gravity well traps to pull ships out of Hyper Space in my tabletop adventures, but haven't had a chance just yet. One day I will!
26:57 YOu could honestly get like 90% of the Holdo Manuver if she was targeting a ship with a Gravity well cone, but one aiming its cone at the shuttles because they know the Raddus is already empty and maybe even warming up its reactor for a self-destruct. She plots a course that intersects the cone right at the base, and Thrawn pincers herself into point-blank for a conventional-speed ram and self-destruct.
JJ and Hyperdrives + Planets was an issue already in the Force Awakens when the falcon is going to Starkiller base exiting hyperspace within atmosphere
25:40 I always loved how Lucas gave hyperdrives the styling of modern graphics cards.
Incredible work. Can't believe I haven't seen this channel before!
About the hyperspace TIEs, the TIE S/F used by the First Order is an upgrade over the TIE L/N in every way, fitting the faction's "Less quantity, more quality" doctrine when compared to the Empire.
To fit the lore it has to be an upgraded version but this is only because the writing ignores the limitations of the TIE L/N and the capabilities of the new TIE have to be explained in post. If JJ wanted a better TIE he could have used the TIE Defender but he instead chose to use the basic form of the TIE L/N because he does not care about president in the SW universe. The defender is even canon as it's appeared in Rebels.
@@hominid92the defender was incredibly expensive though and wouldnt make sense to be a mainline fighter.
@@robertharris6092 well, They still gave the new fighter almost all of the expensive featured Defender had, so this new fighter should have been just as expensive.
@@hominid92 the thing is, "basic ties with Hyperdrives" isnt a new thing in star wars.
there are examples of Tie interceptors(who for all intent and purpose are the same size as a regular tie for what they can acommodate in terms of equipment) with hyperdrives in legends
"The lore controls your actions partially, but it also obeys your commands." Fackin brilliant 👏
Love your choices of music. Homeworld and command and conquer? You are wonderful.
25:49 that got me good!
Just what I needed after a days work!
Keep up these videos, they're so well made!
My interpretation of the Holdo Maneuver is two parts. One: it's not necessarily a _law of physics_ that you can't jump to lightspeed near a gravity well, it's an _engineering failsafe_ to prevent the danger caused by crashing into a mass shadow (which is a law-of-physics issue, but hyperdrives are designed to drop into realspace before then for safety). Case in point from Disney Wars VII, Han overriding the Falcon's nav-computer to manually exit hyperspace right within Starkiller Base's shields, while the normal failsafe would've dropped them out quite a bit further back from the gravity well. In this case, the failsafe was _overridden_ to go "fuck your interdiction, imma jump anyway". And two: jumping to hyperspace has a _run-up_ period, a brief distance where you're rapidly accelerating toward lightspeed in realspace, before you actually enter hyperspace. You don't go from velocity-zero straight into hyperspace. The collision happened during the run-up, while the ship was still in realspace and able to interact with (read: smash into at near-luminal velocity) normal matter.
If only it didn't need a fan explanation to try to rationalize.
1:57 that's the scene where R2-D2 exposes the secret Sith Lord, not a comic relief
My issues with Disney Wars' trilogy were never diversity, inclusivity, casting, or their plans to "subvert expectations". I didn't even care that they would break rules. It was that they completely ignored that any rules ever existed, in the first place. Decades of canon, not just ignored, but uncanonized. And now, the shows and series are doing what the movies should've done from the start, fleshing out the expanded universe that existed all along... some better than others, but that's a story for another time.
I know, old comment, still.
The Expanded Universe were never "movie canon" anyway. A lot of the writing in The Expanded Universe makes JJ and Ryan seem like writing geniuses. Force sensitive rocks, a force sensitive droid that fries itself so R2-D2 would be chosen by Luke, because it felt the importance of R2, and R2s destiny, and far more terrible writing.
I frankly prefer a "Expanded Universe is non-canon" over the kind of Lucas approach which was "Not really canon, but maybe, I might use something, but if it doesn't contradict you can kind of see it as canon, unless we overwrite it"
The Expanded Universe was a mix of VERY different levels of writing quality, and when people talk about "Fleshing it out" they are talking about the good parts, ignoring there are tons of books, comics, etc, that are just straight up terrible.
29:50 I remember there being a hyperspace capable TIE but it was sabatoged before mass production.
Tie defender
Many designs have been created but they never achieved mass production. Theres also normal tie/LNs that were modified to have hyperdrives.
You have done a wonderful job showcasing multiple issues that I have not often seen mentioned. I am curious as to how the planet's gravity well / hyperdrive shadow was supposed to interact with the Millennium Falcon during JJ's first movie. Particularly when Han and Chewbacca drive into the planet at Hyperspeed to bypass the planetary shielding. (Edit:) Should the Millennium Falcon have been stopped much earlier? Or did Han and Chewbacca actually just nail the timing?
There are several scenes in Starwars that show how far ships need to be before using the hyperdrive. I recommend the Hoth escape which shows several in succession.
That Command & Conquer music... yes.
Doesn't Han jump into the atmosphere of Starkiller Base in Force Awakens meaning J.J. broke hyperspace first?
I had a feeling they filmed that treadspeeder scene using snowmobiles.
They do in fact fly now
0:51 bro destroyed disnæy
How to fix the Holdo Maneuver.
Have it only work if you hit the Hyper Space Tracking device, and have the HSTD sensor in Hyper Space when operating.
I barely know anything about Star Wars (only got re-interested in the franchise because i’ve been playing fallen order. Yet this video made everything easy and clear to understand.
Thanks, that's very interesting to hear! It wasn't specifically written with that in mind, but it's a great way to tell if we're still making any sense. You should be able to understand the ideas, without having to memorise every line in the movies. -DZ
Well the through tone of this is that the power on the new star wars wheren't fans or had any lore master they listen to when scripting, and that is more from every fan with director knowledge wanted to watch not work on it. Or the general disregard for the old world building was just to damn high.
I always imagined Disney executives saying, " J.J. Abrams was able to ruin Star Trek, obviously we should put him in charge of Star Wars!"
I found your channel yesterday and loved every video. I watched all three of the rise of Skywalker ones. And am so happy to see a new one the next day lol.
I'm loving all the Trek references. I'm serious, this is the reason I'm clicking the subscribe button. I personally refer to Trek while trying to explain Star Wars related things. In fact, I did so in a comment on one of your other videos today. About how everyone in Star Wars seems surprised about planet killing capital ships.... when every ship in Starfleet, at least TOS and onward, had the capability of destroying all life on a planet single handedly.
I don't know Trek nearly as well as I'd like to, but I can't remember a time when I didn't love both universes. Thank you. -DZ
@@thebreadcircus I went to refresh my memory, on memory Alpha. In case you were wondering; It's Starfleet general order 24. The episode of TOS is called "A Taste of Armageddon". It's a pretty great episode.
I remember growing up in the 90s, there was always some kind of Star Trek on TV. Just like I remember binge watching my uncle's Star Wars OT VHS box set (he had it on laser disk too, but I didn't know how to work that) in preparation for The Phantom Menace coming to theaters.
23:45 In Courtship of Princess Leia there seemed to be some possibility to VERY SLIGHTLY adjust course without dropping out, but it needs the Force, and that's also one of the EU novels with Luke in a more Superman mode.
I believe that what luke plugs into R2 on dagobah is a generator, to recharge R2, that also happens to give light and maybe heat
At the 26:28 mark, there is mention of a Hyperspace Interdictor ship that had the job of either stopping a ship from entering hyperspace (HS) or pulling a ship out of HS. In Rogue One, Andor's 'U'wing goes to HS while still in atmosphere. This was explained away in that HS is possible in a gravity well IF ALL SHIPS SAFETY PROTOCOLS are removed / disabled. This now renders the Interdictor virtually useless pretty much straight away.
Star Trek was the same with going to warp either in atmoshere or too near a habitable planet. It can be done but the consequences to the planets' inhabitants would be dire. In several TV episodes and movies it was done without anything happening to the planet they left.
9:50 the note... I'm very impressed
"62% of all films are shot on earth"
where's the other 38% shot?
Some C&C sound tracks is nice
JJ can't even look at a real world single track vehicle I.E. a snowmobile and go "oh the track goes in the back. A front track makes no sense because you still need a repulsor to hold up the weight of the rear. If you ever watch a video of a snowmobile you'll notice that it putts very little and sometimes no weight on the front skis, they spend most of there time on the rear track, especially when being driven aggressively.
Keep the content up. I was recommended this by the algorithm, your content is extremely interesting and plays perfectly into fans like myself who love random facts I would never need for a problem in my favorite IP
I'm really enjoying this series so far. Looking forward to hearing the rest of what you have to say about the rest of simple fixes to the Disney Wars... And then maybe some other Star Wars (or not!) media in the future?..
The Holdo maneuver takes place when the ship is just ABOUT to enter hyperspace, just going really goddamn fast but still technically in realspace so it's still able to affect other things in realspace.
I always thought of it as making a tiny jump and coming out of hyperspace practically inside the target.
I agree. Also you'd need to get the distance pretty exact for it to work.
@@Xandros999 That also explains the one in a million odds, if it fails you're just popping in right next to a heavily armed ship.
Sourcebooks says the Supremacy hyperspace tracker is overclocked to be in real space and hyperspace at the same time.
The easiest explanation why it works here but no anywhere else:
She hit the hyperspace tracker of the Supremacy in hyperspace but since its also in realsapce at the same time, the impact of the collision happens in both hyper- and realspace.
@@leiferikson850 That's really interesting and a good explanation.
Still not convinced a collision couldn't otherwise happen at the jump to lightspeed.
I wasn't going to comment, but your ask if for it was very well devided and I found it funny. Cool video! Im going to watch a few more now.
(Fair Warning: This comment is a bit long.)
I found this channel recently and it's really fun see Episode 9 be ripped apart using established lore. I will say though that sometimes you transition from talking about what happens in the movie & what happens in your rewrite too smoothly, especially when going over more technical information. It'd be nice if there was a visual cue or maybe a slight restructuring of the video format to make it obvious when you're talking about the rewrite.
The thing about Hyperspace is that because the movies don't go into detail, the casual audience member either only knows that "a computer makes calculations to avoid ramming into stuff" or doesn't remember anything at all so all the crazy shit they've done in the recent movies doesn't seem strange just the first time seeing it. It's only when you look outside of the movies and read about the inner workings of Hyperspace that you realize that not only is it actually complicated, the recent movies literally can't happen.
I say this out of personal experience as I only learned about how Hyperspace works within the last 2 or 3 years. I hated the "holdo maneuver" back in 2017 because it made previous space battles pointless, I hate it now because it canonically wouldn't work like it did in the movie.
On the other hand, it does allow us to say the Sequel Trilogy isn't canon not because of personal feelings but because the characters do things that are legitimately impossible to do in Star Wars. It'd be slightly better if George Lucas had done this because then it'd be a retcon instead of breaking canon, but only slightly.
Lightspeed Skipping was awful because of the probability of Poe pulling it off successfully, one of the worst (or best?) examples of plot armor in a story.
Anyways, great video excited to see what's next!
Well... George Lucas never explained how Hyperspace works... all we, the fans, had to go on about how it works based entirely on observations. I did some math... and hyperspace doesn't work as it is described by fans (who created the hyperspace cannon entries).
Gravity Wells are based on Mass and Density. A huge mass, but low density, equates to low surface gravity. Take our sun. It currently has a surface gravity of ~23g (1g = 1 Earth Gravity at Sea Level [9.8m/s/s]). In a few billion years it will enter its final stage of its existence. It will lose about 15% of its current mass and expand past Earth's current orbit, giving it a surface gravity of ~0.0002g (~0.00196 m/s/s). Of course, if you go to what is currently the sun's surface then, you would experience gravity of about ~20g. So, the question is... at what point does the ship impact the star's gravity well... and at what point does the hyperspace safety measures kick the ship out of hyperspace to avoid ramming into the star? If it knocks the ship out at 1 Astronomical Unit (the average distance between Earth and the Sun), the ship would be _in_ the star...
Love the C&C music. Prepare for Battle. Frank Klepacki is a God. Love your videos
The other advantage a montage could have is it could give you a brief view of the magnitude of operations going on to try to sus out whats going on, have a few short fight, maybe a few x wings shot down and then bring it together afterwards with some commemoration or something
They broke the Hyperspace rule first in Rogue One when they activated the hyperdrive in a planets atmosphere. I would say their is a good argument that they broke it also in ep. 7 also on Han arriving at Starkiller base. There is multiple examples in all the Disney movies that show they don't understand how Hyperspace work.
The reality is that they didn't. There's no evidence presented that hyperdrive can't work close to planets, it's just started.
There's an obvious alternative for why interdictors work - the same computers that calculate the course take the ship out of hyperdrive to avoid colliding with a possible planet
@@lomiification There is evidence presented in Episodes V and I. Planetary blockades would have no use if hyperdrives could be used close to planetary bodies. In Episode V, an ion cannon is used to disable a Star Destroyer long enough to get transports and X-wings far enough from Hoth to jump to hyperspace. In Episode I, the queen's ship needed to run the blockade in order to escape from Naboo. There is no indication that the Imperial Navy had Immobilizers or Interdictors above Hoth or that the Lucrehulks above Naboo had any interdiction capabilities. These instances show that hyperdrives need to be out of the gravity well to work, otherwise why would they not just point the starships towards space and obviously away from any large object (planet, moon, blockading ship, etc.) and jump to hyperspace past any blockade.
@@lomiification It makes no sense to me that interdictors work using gravity wells because that would have lots of effects other than pulling ships out of hyperspace.
Cheating the hyperdrive safety mechanisms really makes sense though.
@@Xandros999in-lore they're gravity well generators, just tuned properly to avoid realspace altering effects on any noticeable scale
The Bread Circus is the next big thing.
I always knew the sequels were flawed, but as much as a lore nerd I consider myself, even I would've never thought to think of the logistics of tread-craft vs repulsorlifts, or if the troopers should use rocketpacks/jetpacks, Or if R2D2's ports are correct, etc. Part of me knew there were issues with these, but I couldn't put it into words. Great video, good things to consider when writing a film, book, etc.
You are amazing! I love seeing lore used properly and explained so well.
I love the Imperial Outpost lore on the end credits. Work of art, this is.
Not JJ, but any ideas on how they could've done the "Holdo Maneuver"? They technically set that up in the previous movie when Han Solo was sneaking on to Starkiller base, by pointing out First Order shields have a special refresh rate that fails to block craft going at hyperspace. That actually explains both how the hyperspace ram worked, and why it isn't ubiquitous - other factions aren't stupid enough to leave such a devastating vulnerability in their shields.
But, TFA was so forgettable that by the Holdo Maneuver, most of the audience just forgot about the previous technobabble and chalked it up to an unfilled plot hole. How would you have written this in such a way to give the audience the information they need, remind them of it, and not break pacing or the emotional moment?
Damn, so they just destroy all the intimidation their faction has in the first movie. You can't make this up.
Nope, still a plot hole. If hyperspace taming was so powerful no military this late into hyperspace technology is going to leave a flaw like that.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 The First Order was comedically stupid.
@@ailius1520 It wouldn't just affect the First Order, but the Empire, the Republic, the CIS, the ancient Sith Empire, hell it would affect the damn Rakkatta.
This legitimately is impossible.
The Starkiller base scene was also stupid, stupid but forgivable and ignorable. A minor plot hole, an inconvenience.
The Holdo Manuever is death to the Star Wars universe. It is a death to the very idea of Star Wars's star wars. It doesn't just break how Star Wars hyperspace works, as you're basically intangible, you skim into another dimension, in hyperspace. It breaks military theory, military technology, how war is waged, and it is brought in as the centerpiece of the movie.
It was meant to be the spectacular shot, it is instead the coupe de grace of the film against Star Wars.
There was once upon a time and somewhere on the internet a theory:
The 'Hyperspace Tracker' was in fact a piece of hyperdrive technology itself. The Holdo maneuver was just plain stupid and would NEVER work; until in a freak case of force serendipity this beyond bleeding edge piece of technology demonstrated it's achilles heel.
If you drive a ship !IN HYPERSPACE! right at it, it will react catastrophically by being dragged along !AT HYPERSPACE SPEEDS! in !REALSPACE!
Thus: The Holdo maneuver was a completely USELESS gesture( ...and in fact may have been aiming to miss the mega and was pulled in by the tracker). However, though she, and the Raddus, hit a mas shadow and died a completely ignoble and fruitless death her action did drag the tracker violently through the fleet.
In sum: we didn't see the Raddus kamikazi, we saw just a relatively tiny sensor system yanked though real space at MANY light years per minute... and the Raddus being uselessly pulverized in hyperspace against a mass shadow too.
I stand by, every non-trivial issue people have with episode 8 can be *directly* tied to a problem created in episode 7. Case in point, in atmosphere jumps was something JJ did first...
JJ killed Star Wars and stuffed it in a corner. RJ pulled it out of the corner and tried to dress it up and put it in a coffin. JJ then blamed RJ for killing it, took it out of the coffin, did a dance over it and then took a dump on it.
I somewhat disagree.
JJ abused Star Wars, beat it in the head, and stuffed it in the corner. RJ pulled it out of the corner, propped it on a stage, and then shot it in the back of the head. JJ then took it out and beat the corpse until he broke his own hand on its jaw, then threw it in the river.
RJ was worse than JJ, but not by much.
RJ didn't have to double down on TFA, he could have fixed the movie's problems
@@АлексейМомот-щ7о Could have, yes. But doing so would have made him one of the best directors ever. I don't think it can be understated just how much 7 messed up the trajectory of 8 and 9. It left 8 with nothing good. All of the new characters had no personality, the stakes had been jumped to 11, the villains had been made worse than the Empire while being shown to be more incompetent and Luke was shown to have disappeared for no good reason.
So he basically had to do two movies worth of characterization when the characters are not in the same location, bring the stakes back to a more sane level while dropping the danger of the first order to match their incompetence *and* run with explaining why Luke disappeared... None of those were done amazingly well, some of them were done ok and others done poorly. But in order to do *any* of them amazingly well, you would expect an entire movie around just that one point.
@@pubcle Ok, give me a non-trivial thing from 8 that you had a problem with. I'll play ball and show you how it was actually a problem that already existed.
@@SirSpence99 Doesn't matter that most of the issues already existed in some degree, RJ took them and worsened them a dozen fold. Yes, hyperspace's exact rules were partially ignored and broken in the approach to Star Killer Base, but where that is an inconvenient pothole the Supremacy scene is a universe-shattering death nail. Where Luke was poorly set up and his position as a galactic hermit didn't make much sense, RJ turned it into a complete betrayal of everything Luke was without sufficient justification.
I am by no means defending JJ, he had no idea how to run things and already betrayed the character progression and story of Han Solo while creating a true Mary Sue that ignores how Jedi training and the Force work. RJ just did everything even worse. I was already out of the sequels and refusing to give a single cent by the end of TFA. I know how horrible JJ was from the beginning. RJ was also atrocious for the franchise though, he didn't dress it up for a send off, it was a messy, irredeemable execution. Everything from the way the pacing and villains were handled to the way the Force, the training, Luke Skywalker, the entire main conflict with the fuel and speed being utterly nonsensical, even ignoring the lore problems the entire structure is not good story telling and a third of the movie is a disconnected mess of hamfisted commentary with no relevance to the plot.
To be at least a bit fair to the Holdo Maneuver, it's pretty clear that it struck the ship during the *acceleration* into hyperspace, not while *inside* hyperspace, so I think it'd still be in the range of physical possibility.
Honestly I have a bigger issue that they just made Hyperspace tracking a thing to caught one ship and move the plot.
@@davidunderwood9728 Interdiction would have worked fine too.
I do enjoy your old school lore dump nerdom, its nice to see the old guard of hobbies and sci-fi talk in detail about how things work in universe.
Also the "Mars God of war" bit with the Venture Bros reference was great.
The ED-1TA's note at 9:49 highlights why these videos are true gems.
Poe really edged the hyper-drive...
I have just watched all of your Rise of Skywalker videos. all the logic is just perfect, you are from my point of view George Lucas. critiquing JJ's and RJ's attempt to make a better version of star wars and failing to do so.
I remember the "Hyperspace Skimming" part in the cinema and I could not believe it. The second Poe did it, my memory flashed back to Han in A New Hope... saying you cant just punch in random co-ords and make the jump. "Fans" of the Sequels will tell me that it was cannon right from the beginning and I knew it wasn't. Some fans even told me that Chewie or Han Bypassed something in the falcon to prevent this... but that sounds like something JJ or RJ would say as it completely contradicts the original trilogy.
Also about the First Order TIE Fighters. I read a book once The Force Awakens came out about all of the new tech in the "New Star Wars Universe" (Disney Wars) and realised that JJ was on the writing team. In the book it specified that the TIE Fighters were upgraded with Shield Generators, A Back Gunner, Hyperdrive and of course... Long and Shortrange Missiles. Realising this I noticed that JJ basically just mashed up the TIE Fighter, TIE Advanced, TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor into one ship basically to make it look like the First Order had evolved from the Empire... Without realising that NORMAL TIE FIGHTERS never had these to begin with.
After all of this research done on the Sequels... its almost like JJ and RJ just decided... to hell with Lucas, I can do it better. And did not.
I do not hate the sequels as much as many other fans do. But I still think that the Sequels could be much better if Lucas did them instead, but then again according to Lucas there was never supposed to be a 7, 8, 9 anyway... and now some sources are trying to say that there could be a 10, 11 and 12.
Anyway... thanks for the awesome videos! very informative... Rant over :)
19:30 Star Trek TOS had data tapes. They were about the size of a Gameboy cartridge
two tonne 21 at the end! - now thats what I call a dark S7 maneuver!
I was looking for this comment, the 21 and 24 suit up sequence was a perfect fit.
@@assassinproduction1 Its one of many many gems, goddam what a great show the Venture bros was / is - the dark s7 is from s3 e10 - The Lepidopterists - but the end of season 4 has the best end of season payoff I can recall. Doc Hammer and Christopher McCulloch showing everyone how its done. Its a shame they cant all be as good, now I got the dart monkey on my back I think I know what to watch next.
31:35 Actually in Legends they saw EXTENSIVE use after exiting the prototype stage and stayed in service into the conflicts with the Yuuzhan Vong and beyond, even Rogue Squadron got their hands on some Defenders at one point.
12:04 the storm trooper armor is based on clone trooper armor which ultimately is based on jango Fett's armor. So flight is not that surprised.
It just doesn't make sense for them to be surprised, it's really not unheard of in Star Wars, just rather uncommon, because you basically strap a bomb to yourself in order to fly around and stuff, so most people just didn't dare to use them. But never before in the Star Wars movies was anyone surprised by some guy suddenly taking off by the means of a jetpack.
Wasn’t expecting half life 2 in a star wars video lol
And demoman jumpscare
Papa, where were you when MauLer was reborn?
I was there, son.
I really like your use of scenes from the movies to point out things and add more to your video.
the holdo maneuver can be mitigated by three additions:
- the hyperspace tracker has to hold open a hyperspace rift and point its probe though that
- holdo aims at the trackers signature for the jump
- the ship colides with the probe in hyperspace and the explosion is forced into realspace through the trackers still open rift.
23:04 Yes, but the ship’s not in hyperspace yet when it hits the Supremacy. In every piece of Star Wars media, going into hyperspace is a multi-stage process-the coordinates are set, the hyperdrive is powered up, the ship’s propulsion system is activated in real space, the ship accelerates TO LIGHTSPEED, and then the ship drops into hyperspace. The Holdo Maneuver entails striking the Supremacy with the Raddis’s mass once it is accelerated to relativistic speeds as part of the process of hyperspeed travel. Yes, this is canon-as you cite, Han Solo famously said the Millennium Falcon makes “point five past lightspeed” in 1977.
23:52 I also don’t really get this as criticism on Rian Johnson… yes, when you want to survive and get anywhere you have to precalculate before you jump to lightspeed, but that wasn’t part of Holdo’s plan, and we absolutely have evidence jumping to lightspeed is possible without it-navigating the Unknown Regions for example REQUIRES you don’t use a navicomputer because the hyperspace lanes through those regions are unreliable. What JJ does differently is say “locations don’t matter, geek shit don’t matter, it’s not real space moron”-which is actually exactly the opposite of what Rian does.
At 22:32, the narrator references Cliff Richard *Jr* and the Shadows. This can only be a wonderfully esoteric reference to the 1966 film Thunderbirds Are Go.
None other than the biggest star in the universe! -DZ
As an added note. There are 2 types of "hover" tech in Star Wars lore, and have been for a very long time. One that works off repelling against mass (repulsor lifts) and ones that repel against gravitational waves. Grav packs were used by clone units, the same way jet packs, rocket packs and repulsor packs were. But of course they require a gravity field. Either on a Planet, or artificial.
Repulsors require mass to push off against, and so don't need a strong gravity field. But off also cannot go very high. Repulsors can also spread their weight across a greater surface area than their vehicle's profile, and they spread their weight over mass below the ground too. Not just the layer of atoms on the surface.
From an out of universe physics explanation. One uses gravity waves, the other generates them.