I think the Kings get their list because the minis are based on the pre-transformation Nazgul at the start of Fellowship. Still salty that Lobelia's entire part is to scowl angrily and she gets a profile while Grimbold has a speaking role and he can go squat on a star picket. Loving the videos
Tried out Road to Rivendell on the weekend, and it was so much fun. Bill is a 8" moving banner. Harry's ability to make models charge him is very strong. Barliman has 2 might for some reason. A lot to love
In road to helms deep, you can slingshot gimli 16 inches by dismounting infront and moving 5. I think you can technically give Hama a horse by taking it off a rider as well
I dont believe Gandalf would get 5 attacks with Pippin as a passenger as he "can't contribute to combat in any way (unless otherwise specified)". Pippin gives him resistant to magic, reroll wound rolls of 1 when making strikes, and access to his M/W/F pool.
@MtnGoatGaming oh yeah he's still absolutely superb! Are you chaps planning on doing a follow-up to these with some example lists when you've got a better feeling for the new edition?
1. I'm not sure Gamling really was nerfed - the Banner is 6" and does give +1 might on a6 ALL THE TIME, not only for heroics, even for increasing dice. So if you play even only 4 heroes with 12 might, thats probably 2 more might. That might be less than he regained with Merry in the old edition, but since it's still a 6" Banner instead of 3" (which is insanely good for a cav army) and Banners are much more important currently, I'd say he's fine. 2. Rivendell is obviously an all mounted knights list, no idea how you all did not see this and gave it a movement 2-3 and shooting 3-4 while both should be 4,5-5 :D And since they are elves with +1 courage (always, on anyone, no conditions asked) it might get a 5 on courage too, which only Tyler noticed apperently. Also not sure a 3 on combat is fair for an all mounted F5 list with D6, Lance, Foresight points (huge with the new priority) and two casters potentially knocking all opponents to the ground. I actually do think this list will work quite much better than everyone seems to be expecting right now.
Cheers! Still a very rough guide, but I'd highly recommend trying to rank the lists you write in the same manner to see how it stacks up in certain areas Alex
I'm pretty sure Legolas can only shoot while engaged when he has the infantry keyword. The end of the sentence that allows him to shoot while engaged says "so long as he has the infantry keyword", and while that could be seen as only refering to the no penalty for moving and shooting part, the lack of punctuation in the sentence indicates it applies to the whole thing. Even if he can shoot while engaged while mounted, he can't do it if he charged more than half his movement.
Love this thank you !! Just a question - would you say your score and rank is mostly applicable for big games ? I get that ride out is one of the best but hard to field with less than 800 pts - so if the wrap was done with 500 point in mind I guess minas tirit or Osgiliath will be top 5 for instance … what do you think ?
That's one thing that's very tough to know at the moment. I think that we'll see an uptick in the points levels of tournaments slightly, which allows for some of those hero-heavy lists to be seen more. Is also a weakness of using the ranking system (that I usually use for lists) onto an overall army. Things that have more options and heroes tend to come up to the top ranking wise even if they arent the best on the table. Having run Army of the White Hand at 500pts, I think it's an exceptional list at low to mid points still! Alex
Ride out, must charge. That includes charging when you lose priority, that is not an insignificant hurdle to get around for gameplay tactics. But hot dam so many Rohan lists with access to Aragorn, who needs Riders of Theoden and old Gamling banner when you have him for F7 and free might plus 6" banner now. Its best of both worlds, sorry Eomer you just got better as well.
Honestly wish boromir got a bigger nerf. He honestly is stronger in most match ups that aren't fight 5 armies. I'm surprised the most meta good hero of last edition got a small slap on the wrist while other non meta stuff got nerfed alot heavily. This version of boromir is still 6 might for some reason and can now be 9 might in bigger games, has his lance in built now and when on foot and has a once per game +1 to wound on his banner in an army that essentially wins almost every duel roll off that is not dragon emperor or fight 6 elves. Surprised no put it as a 5 for combat.
He’s still very focussed in a single area. And it’s not as clear whether to give him the horse considering the inbuilt +1 to wound. Unfortunately it’s the S3 troops that surround him and the drop to F4.5 in gondor means it’s far better for all the F5 armies (and particularly the heroes). Ultimately, heroes (especially those on screen) have become better, so making him bad enough that people won’t want to use him is against what he is going for. Alex
Between Ride Out and Army of Edoras which do you think will be more fun? I hope Edoras is good because I'd love to see a good Rohan list with both cavalry and infantry since they deleted Theodred's Guard.
Purely more fun? Unless you're dying to pull out all the new stuff (unfortunately still waiting for some of the new heroes to have models) then I'd go for Ride Out. Awesome heroes that'll crunch and its easy to just get crunching! Alex
Planning on giving it a run soon. Rerolling 1s in the duel roll is such a great rule to make the heroes far more consistent (on top of their banner reroll as well)! Alex
The issue is that we do not know what point levels the games will be organised. As seemingly everything is a bit more expensive. Either points will be higher or less kodels on the table. So hard to make a list until it is known.
Absolutely correct! I'm really keen to come back and redo the rankings in 9-12 months and see what we got completely wrong. I do think there will be a slight uptick in the points levels of games, but we'll see! Alex
2nd edition? You could consider the mines of Moria rulebook as edition 1 but then the hobbit ruleset has to be considered a second edition. The “Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game” edition would be 3rd then this would be 4th by my count. If you make the OG Fellowship Of The Ring/Two Towers/Return of the King books as a first edition this would be 5th
Yeah with the boost to many of the movie heroes, good has seen a massive uptake in the strength of their lists for sure. Really keen to see what becomes the more popular lists! Alex
Limied ocassion, next time you see guys on a turnament and give a prof of subscription, then pass written a viewer test the Alex will let you score 1 Victory point for free
It really depends on how you plan to run the list overall. I think the potential combos you can set off between helm and hera in the list are too interesting to pass up on, and to be honest, its always more fun to bring the big heroes to the table! Alex
@MtnGoatGaming Was just curious, because spamming out that Dominant 2 could also be interesting. If you manage to put 45+ Rohirrim Infantry on the board, that's well over 100 capture weight you have. Not to mention more throwing spears and a mounted hero option. Hera+Helm combo is beastly though... Shame a certain character isn't in the list. 😉
What is there that needs fixing? He's a F9 D10 S8 hero in a game with D3 strike, and some of the most potent magic in the game and an army that doesn't break under normal circumstances? I'd take the captain and maybe a drummer until you hit 700+ minimum though. Alex
I honestly think celeborn has more of a place in this new loth. The +1 to wound and the Loren guard upgrade (reroll 1s) together can make the elf shield wall quite killy. Definitely a pretty boring list though
Honestly I think everyone has overreacted a bit. There were quite a few people thinking it was naming the Lothlorien warrior troops instead of the keyword. Only issue is the rest of his kit incentivises you to really sit back and slow down your opponent whilst you shoot them which is, as you said, incredibly boring. -Alex
36:20 Courage could have been a bit higher At three all around. Veterans have c 4 and you can slap a horn in there. Plus as long as Faramir is alive there's no way the guys around him go anywhere
Fair enough! The extra courage pip on the Vets is nice, but I'm not sure if their rule is enough to make me take them. The horn is also a tough one to squeeze in when Frodo and Sam are probably really good choices too for the VP potential. But Faramir is definitely keeping the majority of his troops around once they break! Alex
@MtnGoatGaming You should be right. I aim to play that list without the hobbits cause I'm a sucker for representing moments that could possibly have happened before Frodo and co reached Ithilien. Didn't mention that purpose of mine in my comment. So I agree. The way you build it makes for some ups and down. My way for example loses some redundancy.
Balance wise I think harbinger on the king of the dead would be too good with the other buffs the army got. They are now the most mobile faction in the game agnostic of the board. They have a mobility factor the game has never seen before as far as I know. So you already get to dictate a turn of combat against non full cav armies, and have 6 irresistible instill fears, and a cracked Aragorn to boot. I think harbinger dictating a lot on top of all of this would be too much, maybe it would have been cool for the king to have the choice to have harbinger for the turn or instill fear, but I think the army is going to do work now.
That's a good point. The only reason I wasn't too concerned about the addition of harbinger is the fact it won't interact with the blades of the dead. But still, harbinger isnt much fun to deal with! Alex
@@MtnGoatGaming yeah, with the nerf of that combo it staying around would have been likely less a problem, but I think the army will do just fine without it, and making it more a unique evil effect is kinda thematic.
hi lads, what was that Alex said about dominant3 when talking about Fangorn at 31:20 ? something like "did you guys know.(something something). against dominant.. 3.... hidden in the list building section. I cant quite catch it, the accents keeps throwing me.
Some models now count as more models for the purpose of objectives and things like that. I’m not sure if it applies to breaking / quartering yet. But a troll for example is dominant 3. So would count as 3 infantry warrior models when working out objectives
... also did you guys know that your (something) against dominant, is 3.... It's that something I cant catch. Does it even relate to dangers or is he talking about something else entirely
I don't get movement 3 with return of the king. It's 8" moving army with 12" cav... Also the shire: Gandalf + Old bilbo + ring equals balrog fight value 😏
To be honest, you're completely right regarding the movement. Think we just skipped that completely in our mind, especially since Aragorn can easily call a march in the early turns. Shire meta incoming? Alex
Hi! At the moment if you don't have the books Tabletop Admiral has all the profiles and lists mostly correct. I'm keeping an eye out on both Avcordaro and the Lonely Knight Army Builder for when they are updated, easily my favourite ways to build army lists. Alex
Think you over estimate an eagles 3 dice with no banner and no might winning all their 6-8 fights on the 2 critical turns. My Theoden with might loses enough.
I don't think there's an expectation that they'll win all their fights - but the ability to hit whatever and wherever on the battlefield means you're always taking advantageous fights where possible, likely away from your opponents banners or going into their spear supports to reduce the number of attacks coming back at you. Additionally, Gwaihir is the one that is most dangerous with his F8, and the turn they can't move gives him an insane opportunity to dive onto a hero that can't even move or setup Bolging opportunities. -Alex
I’ve played about 6 games with the new Eagles this edition, and it’s honestly so night and day from last time around. You don’t win all your fights, but you generally win enough to do some crippling damage and you don’t take any real damage back until your opponent can get traps, which won’t happen until the third turn of combat. If 4/6 Eagles win combat a turn on their two guaranteed favourable engagements and do nothing more interesting than kill a couple guys, then that’s 16 dead enemies and your opponent now probably only has 2-3 models per Eagle remaining. Pretty easy to clean up from there I’ve found
Men of the West and Pelenor is nothing alike, as the three hubters can only lead warriors of the dead warbands. So if u bring more one is probably without a warbans.
Tbf the restrictions on what can be taken in each warband is necessary/thematic and tbh I like the variety in the Defenders of the Pelenor list. However as you said it will be really restrictive if you decide to take one of the hunters especially if you want them to lead troops. -Tyler
Look, I'm still keen to see them on the table, but unsure how to best make use of them to really shine and hit the top tables when coming up against some of these other lists. Alex
u either take last alliance or wait for 3rd book,so u can take glorfindel instead of useless gil-galad without a strike/blood and glory/shield and horse
Honestly both high elf lists are better and more reliable than the edition before due to rule changes and LL special rules. Whereby the Rivendell LL is probably the more fun and competitive list. The Loth will be stronger with Rumil and Orophin.
4:56 was that a declaration of war
Yes
-Tyler
There is only one thing to say:
"TO WAR!"
I think the Kings get their list because the minis are based on the pre-transformation Nazgul at the start of Fellowship.
Still salty that Lobelia's entire part is to scowl angrily and she gets a profile while Grimbold has a speaking role and he can go squat on a star picket.
Loving the videos
Appreciate it dude
-sean
Tried out Road to Rivendell on the weekend, and it was so much fun. Bill is a 8" moving banner. Harry's ability to make models charge him is very strong. Barliman has 2 might for some reason. A lot to love
I guess the realms of men are in the opening of the movies, as kings accepting the nine rings.
That's actually a really good point, mate.
-Sean
In road to helms deep, you can slingshot gimli 16 inches by dismounting infront and moving 5. I think you can technically give Hama a horse by taking it off a rider as well
I dont believe Gandalf would get 5 attacks with Pippin as a passenger as he "can't contribute to combat in any way (unless otherwise specified)". Pippin gives him resistant to magic, reroll wound rolls of 1 when making strikes, and access to his M/W/F pool.
Definitely just got excited there, but still looking at a 4 attack 12" moving 4/8/6 (roughly) hero!
Alex
@MtnGoatGaming oh yeah he's still absolutely superb!
Are you chaps planning on doing a follow-up to these with some example lists when you've got a better feeling for the new edition?
1. I'm not sure Gamling really was nerfed - the Banner is 6" and does give +1 might on a6 ALL THE TIME, not only for heroics, even for increasing dice. So if you play even only 4 heroes with 12 might, thats probably 2 more might. That might be less than he regained with Merry in the old edition, but since it's still a 6" Banner instead of 3" (which is insanely good for a cav army) and Banners are much more important currently, I'd say he's fine.
2. Rivendell is obviously an all mounted knights list, no idea how you all did not see this and gave it a movement 2-3 and shooting 3-4 while both should be 4,5-5 :D And since they are elves with +1 courage (always, on anyone, no conditions asked) it might get a 5 on courage too, which only Tyler noticed apperently. Also not sure a 3 on combat is fair for an all mounted F5 list with D6, Lance, Foresight points (huge with the new priority) and two casters potentially knocking all opponents to the ground. I actually do think this list will work quite much better than everyone seems to be expecting right now.
If Alex did all this colorcoding by hand, someone needs to tell that man about spreadsheets.
Because That shit should happen automagically dude xD
Brother loves a spreadsheet don’t you worry!!’
-J
Great content and really helps me know what the potential strengths and weaknesses of each army is. Thanks
Cheers! Still a very rough guide, but I'd highly recommend trying to rank the lists you write in the same manner to see how it stacks up in certain areas
Alex
I love the time and effort
And we love you ♥️
-J
Great content fellas 👏
Glad you enjoyed it! 😊
-Tyler
I'm pretty sure Legolas can only shoot while engaged when he has the infantry keyword. The end of the sentence that allows him to shoot while engaged says "so long as he has the infantry keyword", and while that could be seen as only refering to the no penalty for moving and shooting part, the lack of punctuation in the sentence indicates it applies to the whole thing. Even if he can shoot while engaged while mounted, he can't do it if he charged more than half his movement.
great ranking! no metion of all cavalry rivendell with arwen and elrond?
Love this thank you !!
Just a question - would you say your score and rank is mostly applicable for big games ?
I get that ride out is one of the best but hard to field with less than 800 pts - so if the wrap was done with 500 point in mind I guess minas tirit or Osgiliath will be top 5 for instance … what do you think ?
That's one thing that's very tough to know at the moment. I think that we'll see an uptick in the points levels of tournaments slightly, which allows for some of those hero-heavy lists to be seen more. Is also a weakness of using the ranking system (that I usually use for lists) onto an overall army. Things that have more options and heroes tend to come up to the top ranking wise even if they arent the best on the table. Having run Army of the White Hand at 500pts, I think it's an exceptional list at low to mid points still!
Alex
Ride out, must charge. That includes charging when you lose priority, that is not an insignificant hurdle to get around for gameplay tactics. But hot dam so many Rohan lists with access to Aragorn, who needs Riders of Theoden and old Gamling banner when you have him for F7 and free might plus 6" banner now. Its best of both worlds, sorry Eomer you just got better as well.
@@DionPhilbey couldn’t agree more man.
It’s a huge liability, but it hits so hard
Honestly wish boromir got a bigger nerf. He honestly is stronger in most match ups that aren't fight 5 armies. I'm surprised the most meta good hero of last edition got a small slap on the wrist while other non meta stuff got nerfed alot heavily. This version of boromir is still 6 might for some reason and can now be 9 might in bigger games, has his lance in built now and when on foot and has a once per game +1 to wound on his banner in an army that essentially wins almost every duel roll off that is not dragon emperor or fight 6 elves. Surprised no put it as a 5 for combat.
He’s still very focussed in a single area. And it’s not as clear whether to give him the horse considering the inbuilt +1 to wound. Unfortunately it’s the S3 troops that surround him and the drop to F4.5 in gondor means it’s far better for all the F5 armies (and particularly the heroes).
Ultimately, heroes (especially those on screen) have become better, so making him bad enough that people won’t want to use him is against what he is going for.
Alex
Between Ride Out and Army of Edoras which do you think will be more fun? I hope Edoras is good because I'd love to see a good Rohan list with both cavalry and infantry since they deleted Theodred's Guard.
Purely more fun? Unless you're dying to pull out all the new stuff (unfortunately still waiting for some of the new heroes to have models) then I'd go for Ride Out. Awesome heroes that'll crunch and its easy to just get crunching!
Alex
Would gandalf himself get the fearless and hatred of mordor.?
listening to this, not looking at the colours..
Ride Out is so cooked. The forced charge can be rough, but smart players will keep it under control
Planning on giving it a run soon. Rerolling 1s in the duel roll is such a great rule to make the heroes far more consistent (on top of their banner reroll as well)!
Alex
The issue is that we do not know what point levels the games will be organised. As seemingly everything is a bit more expensive. Either points will be higher or less kodels on the table. So hard to make a list until it is known.
Absolutely correct! I'm really keen to come back and redo the rankings in 9-12 months and see what we got completely wrong. I do think there will be a slight uptick in the points levels of games, but we'll see!
Alex
2nd edition? You could consider the mines of Moria rulebook as edition 1 but then the hobbit ruleset has to be considered a second edition. The “Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game” edition would be 3rd then this would be 4th by my count. If you make the OG Fellowship Of The Ring/Two Towers/Return of the King books as a first edition this would be 5th
Where does Battle of Fornost land in these rankings?
Just have to wait till the video 😉
-Sean
Jesus Christ good is so much better than evil this edition 😂.
Time to main minas morgul and host of the WK!
Great vid guys!
Yeah with the boost to many of the movie heroes, good has seen a massive uptake in the strength of their lists for sure. Really keen to see what becomes the more popular lists!
Alex
Limied ocassion, next time you see guys on a turnament and give a prof of subscription, then pass written a viewer test the Alex will let you score 1 Victory point for free
For Defenders of the Hornburg, is there an argument to not run Hera, in favor of another Captain and more dudes?
It really depends on how you plan to run the list overall. I think the potential combos you can set off between helm and hera in the list are too interesting to pass up on, and to be honest, its always more fun to bring the big heroes to the table!
Alex
@MtnGoatGaming Was just curious, because spamming out that Dominant 2 could also be interesting. If you manage to put 45+ Rohirrim Infantry on the board, that's well over 100 capture weight you have. Not to mention more throwing spears and a mounted hero option. Hera+Helm combo is beastly though... Shame a certain character isn't in the list. 😉
Will you guys be doing Hobbit armies?
The Hobbit video will be coming soon. Hopefully within the next week or so.
-Tyler
Omg love the "Lame Conquest Creations Subscriber"
What is there that needs fixing? He's a F9 D10 S8 hero in a game with D3 strike, and some of the most potent magic in the game and an army that doesn't break under normal circumstances? I'd take the captain and maybe a drummer until you hit 700+ minimum though.
Alex
I honestly think celeborn has more of a place in this new loth.
The +1 to wound and the Loren guard upgrade (reroll 1s) together can make the elf shield wall quite killy.
Definitely a pretty boring list though
Honestly I think everyone has overreacted a bit. There were quite a few people thinking it was naming the Lothlorien warrior troops instead of the keyword. Only issue is the rest of his kit incentivises you to really sit back and slow down your opponent whilst you shoot them which is, as you said, incredibly boring.
-Alex
36:20
Courage could have been a bit higher
At three all around. Veterans have c 4 and you can slap a horn in there. Plus as long as Faramir is alive there's no way the guys around him go anywhere
Fair enough! The extra courage pip on the Vets is nice, but I'm not sure if their rule is enough to make me take them. The horn is also a tough one to squeeze in when Frodo and Sam are probably really good choices too for the VP potential. But Faramir is definitely keeping the majority of his troops around once they break!
Alex
@MtnGoatGaming You should be right. I aim to play that list without the hobbits cause I'm a sucker for representing moments that could possibly have happened before Frodo and co reached Ithilien. Didn't mention that purpose of mine in my comment.
So I agree. The way you build it makes for some ups and down. My way for example loses some redundancy.
Balance wise I think harbinger on the king of the dead would be too good with the other buffs the army got. They are now the most mobile faction in the game agnostic of the board. They have a mobility factor the game has never seen before as far as I know. So you already get to dictate a turn of combat against non full cav armies, and have 6 irresistible instill fears, and a cracked Aragorn to boot. I think harbinger dictating a lot on top of all of this would be too much, maybe it would have been cool for the king to have the choice to have harbinger for the turn or instill fear, but I think the army is going to do work now.
That's a good point. The only reason I wasn't too concerned about the addition of harbinger is the fact it won't interact with the blades of the dead. But still, harbinger isnt much fun to deal with!
Alex
@@MtnGoatGaming yeah, with the nerf of that combo it staying around would have been likely less a problem, but I think the army will do just fine without it, and making it more a unique evil effect is kinda thematic.
hi lads, what was that Alex said about dominant3 when talking about Fangorn at 31:20 ? something like "did you guys know.(something something). against dominant.. 3.... hidden in the list building section. I cant quite catch it, the accents keeps throwing me.
Some models now count as more models for the purpose of objectives and things like that. I’m not sure if it applies to breaking / quartering yet. But a troll for example is dominant 3. So would count as 3 infantry warrior models when working out objectives
Oh I understand what dominant x means it's just I cant quite figure out what the one or two words he says at that time are.
... also did you guys know that your (something) against dominant, is 3....
It's that something I cant catch. Does it even relate to dangers or is he talking about something else entirely
@@What2Have4Dinnerthat your Leader gets Dominant 3. Apologies for the accents!
@@ajcolasante ah brilliant, thanks man. no worries, love these videos, the chart ye have done is a great idea. looking forward to more
Mountain Goats, but no mention of Iron Hills?
Oh Hobbits coming next, ok.
I don't get movement 3 with return of the king. It's 8" moving army with 12" cav...
Also the shire: Gandalf + Old bilbo + ring equals balrog fight value 😏
To be honest, you're completely right regarding the movement. Think we just skipped that completely in our mind, especially since Aragorn can easily call a march in the early turns. Shire meta incoming?
Alex
Where can I find the lists for armies?
Hi! At the moment if you don't have the books Tabletop Admiral has all the profiles and lists mostly correct. I'm keeping an eye out on both Avcordaro and the Lonely Knight Army Builder for when they are updated, easily my favourite ways to build army lists.
Alex
Thanks Alex. I’m just getting into this. My first miniature just came in the mail today!
Think you over estimate an eagles 3 dice with no banner and no might winning all their 6-8 fights on the 2 critical turns. My Theoden with might loses enough.
I don't think there's an expectation that they'll win all their fights - but the ability to hit whatever and wherever on the battlefield means you're always taking advantageous fights where possible, likely away from your opponents banners or going into their spear supports to reduce the number of attacks coming back at you. Additionally, Gwaihir is the one that is most dangerous with his F8, and the turn they can't move gives him an insane opportunity to dive onto a hero that can't even move or setup Bolging opportunities.
-Alex
@@MtnGoatGaming Gwaihir feels like a massive eagle should feel now
I’ve played about 6 games with the new Eagles this edition, and it’s honestly so night and day from last time around. You don’t win all your fights, but you generally win enough to do some crippling damage and you don’t take any real damage back until your opponent can get traps, which won’t happen until the third turn of combat. If 4/6 Eagles win combat a turn on their two guaranteed favourable engagements and do nothing more interesting than kill a couple guys, then that’s 16 dead enemies and your opponent now probably only has 2-3 models per Eagle remaining. Pretty easy to clean up from there I’ve found
@@sharbie9540 my new army, small, very little to paint, can make cool bird noises, and simple to play
Men of the West and Pelenor is nothing alike, as the three hubters can only lead warriors of the dead warbands. So if u bring more one is probably without a warbans.
Tbf the restrictions on what can be taken in each warband is necessary/thematic and tbh I like the variety in the Defenders of the Pelenor list. However as you said it will be really restrictive if you decide to take one of the hunters especially if you want them to lead troops.
-Tyler
I would work on trying not to talk over one another, this listens pretty rough
Just excited is all! But fair enough!
Lothlorien and lindon made me laugh, so underwhelming
Yeah, they gutted Lothlorien and Rivendell in terms of models and just give them generic garbage. And people are defnding this shit.
Look, I'm still keen to see them on the table, but unsure how to best make use of them to really shine and hit the top tables when coming up against some of these other lists.
Alex
u either take last alliance or wait for 3rd book,so u can take glorfindel instead of useless gil-galad without a strike/blood and glory/shield and horse
Honestly both high elf lists are better and more reliable than the edition before due to rule changes and LL special rules. Whereby the Rivendell LL is probably the more fun and competitive list.
The Loth will be stronger with Rumil and Orophin.
@@fabid6602 what???????????????????