I think a big thing to note on Ride Out, if you call a March with a Hero (such as a free one via Aragorn), you can ignore the charge requirement as you can't charge while Marching. You can do that if your opponent has just gotten within the 10" as a way to escape and put more distance between you for another turn or two of kiting.
Would be interesting to see it play out, with all your models having to stay within 6" but it is a solid idea as a work around for sure in the early game.
I personally think elf factions besides lothlorien got a huge buff. Lots of stuff around them got nerfed, no more boromir banner out classing your army. Elf shooting is above average, the big one is for 9 points base they get f5, shoot 3, d5, high courage elven made hand and a half sword so they can choose to 2 hand or not and now that 2 hand keeps 6s its worth spamming now. I personally think the 2 handed elven made needs to be inbuilt their cost now.
It definitely does! I think you'd struggle to fit all of that in below 800pts though, given the cost of the heroes you'd need to take and the ghosts for the terror - and still probably end up with a much lower model count!
At 650 last alliance you get a 30 model army, with 10 strenght 3 shots of which 7 are elves, amazing battleline, elrond and isildur, so ring shenanigans , wrath of bruinen can opener, foresight which synergizes amazingly well with the whirl of blades special rule, id say its up there for this 650 pick, naturally elven ring elrond will be your leader very ranky
I've also found 650 to be an absolute sweet spot for LA. You always take Elrond & Isildur and the rest can vary. I've recently played E & I both on horse, 1 banner, 9 elf bows, 5 elf swords and 12 num spear & shield (29 models) and did well against my buddy's The Black Gate. BTW Elrond is quite good even against heavy stuff like a Mordor Troll Chieftain with F7 and the new two-handed rule and not a pillow-fighter like before. He actually charged & h-striked & got a 6 & put the hurt on the big guy thx to the new 2-handing (LotW and a banner helps)
600-650 is actually a very good spot for LA (650 is the best; maxes out the two warbands - 32 is fine for an elite army at 650) with Elrond and Isildur but 700 starts pushing it even with 2x banners to support a wide battleline. Don't sleep on mounted Isildur because just like Elrond he also gets more mileage out of the two-handed rule when mounted (even without LotW). BTW you can get 40 models at 800 with Elrond (with horse; he is great with a horse for the 4 att on the charge for 2-handing and calculated/guaranteed channeled "bruinen-bombs" with a wider AoE/threat range with a horse - he has even got Expert Rider now), Isildur on foot w/ring and a Riv Captain along with 13 bows or 39 with 12 bows if you want to give every non-bow wielding Riv Warrior a shield (9 of them). 37 + 12 bows with both Elrond and Isildur on horse... I think pumping up those numbers as much as you can is the way to go along with Elrond and Isildur who are both absolutely top notch in this ed. (might consider Elendil at 700) On another note, I would've picked Rivendell (Knights) instead of Realms of Men (below LA). Despite weak special rules (although Invoke the Bruinen is decent), what really makes it strong is the buffed Elrond, giga-buffed Arwen and the slightly buffed Knights (1pt cheaper + elven-made lances + less prevalent Blinding Light). The new Channeling makes Wrath of Bruinen so damn good and coupled with a strong Arwen a pure Knight list is quite strong. Once that omega-buffed Glorfindel comes to Riv (along with others in AoME - I hope the twins are good), it's gon' get even better. I think even mixed arms Warrior-Knight lists are p. good with how strong the heroes supporting them are.
Don't underestimate old Bilbo, in Riv-Knights ^^ especially after lines clashed, he can be a real annoyance, by still having the old rules for the Ring
I would not underestimate geriatric Bilbo v2 of course, I just forgot to mention him lol. He can indeed be p. good and is defo viable but I often don't take him because the hobbit silliness dilutes my Noldorin horse-archers of Fingon in the 2nd/3rd Age fantasy when I go pure Knights & mounted heroes :p
@@neylina8384 no more Aragorn/Boromir is rough (altho the twins are comin in AoME) but the absolute wrathspam between the daddy & daughter dynamic duo is a nice substitute. What I really want to try out though is sort of a warriors-knights mixed arms list with Elrond and the new Gigachadfindel: two absolute LotW 2-hander horse kangs
@@xenosophont for 2 beat stick heroes I would probably go either Fornost for Glorfindel or Lindon for Elrond + Gil.. I don't really like the Rivendell makeup outside of Riv-Knights.. since the Army Bonus as of such is kinda meh
Unsure exactly who had what as we recorded a couple of weeks ago now - but we had mostly the same picks apart from the Realms of Men and Last Alliance, which only Ali and Adam respectively had picked!
@@GollumGamers I see, it felt from the discussion as tho you had more differing opinions. Maybe you could include the full lists in the next episodes? Thanks again!
@@voice_of_terra7228 So as I still have the list this is what I provided Eliott with initially as my top 5: Top 5 Armies of Middle earth Good lists (in no particular order atm) 1. Defenders of the Hornburg 2. Minas Tirith 3. Defenders of the Pelenor 4. Rivendell 5. Realms of Men Honourable mention 1: Return of the King Honourable mention 2: Men of the West
I think it's the troop choices that swung it for us - Citadel Guard are so good now with Irolas! And Boromir running around killing stuff and not risking leader VPs is really great
@GollumGamers I just think the banner essentially makes you the ultimate fight 4 army that essentially still performs as a pseudo dragon emperor where you get so many banner rerolls that you will win all the combats regardless what your opponent brings in most cases.
@GollumGamers still not sure on that. Mt has honestly always been a vanilla mid list without boromirs banner imo, boromir banner was essentially the dragon emperor version 1 and really allows a basic mid army imo to win so many combats it shouldn't.
Yep where I've wrote on the graphic Citadel Guard shooting, that's just meant to be a separate point saying that the good shooting is a bonus of the list - and another bonus is that you get the +1 in combat 😊
For Minas Tirith, I gotta say I like this list better than what you guys proposed; long live the Citadel Guard spam! 650 points | 42 models Minas Tirith Denethor, Steward of Gondor: (50) 7x Citadel Guard: Longbow (63) 1x Citadel Guard: Spear (9) 5x Guard of the Fountain Court (50) 1x Warrior of Minas Tirith: Banner (33) Irolas, Captain of the Guard: (65) 6x Citadel Guard: Longbow (54) 6x Citadel Guard: Spear (54) Faramir, Captain of Gondor: Exchange armour and bow for heavy armour, Horse, Shield (Without Bow) (125) 4x Warrior of Minas Tirith: Shield (36) 4x Citadel Guard: Spear (36) 5x Knight of Minas Tirith (75)
It's egregious that Gil-galad doesn't have Heroic Strike anymore (along with the lack of shield and horse). He's meant to be the greatest elven warrior of the Second Age, but can't Strike against the most powerful models. There is 0 incentive to take him over Elrond in The Last Alliance, which is a shame, because he is meant to be the overall leader alongside Elendil. And there is less incentive to take Lindon, when Rivendell is simply the better-written army. Heroic Strength is nice, but Gil-galad had that last edition, and so isn't gaining anything new. For the increase in points, he has only lost resources (Shield, Horse, Strike, and Blood and Glory).
Strike when you're fight 9 and it's gone down to d3 feels like a bit of a waste anyway. Apart from Treebeard, Sauron and the Balrog, there will be very few times a strike would reliably outfight him. Meanwhile with natural reroll for duel roll, a banner and a spear support, he has 6 dice plus more might without strike to win. He ultimately dies because he 1 v 1s Sauron, so should be able to be killed but it will be tough to do so and will require a huge amount of luck and resources.
@JonHalls I wouldn't call having Strike a waste at Fight 9, especially not when Gil-galad also has an Elven-made weapon to increase his chances of winning. The very few times it would come up are exactly the situations he would benefit most from. There are a number of Fight 8 heroes that will be able to Strike to tie or exceed his Fight, including profiles like Elendil, Glorfindel, Beorn, and the Mordor Troll Chieftain. The fact that he dies against Sauron is already represented by him having 1 Fate. I'm sure he will be alright this edition, but the point is that it's silly that Gil-galad, more than any other elf lord, would be unable to Strike. It's not a very accurate thing in the slightest.
@@Glowflight It was beyond stupid and sloppy to give him Resolve instead of Strike. Limiting both Elendil and GG to only 3 Actions was a whole 'nother level of dumb design. I get the idea behind reducing Actions to make the selection more impactful but if any heroes deserved to get 4-5 actions it was absolute legends like those two, not some Hobbit (tm) abomination
@@xenosophont Considering how limited their lists are, Gil-galad and Elendil both deserved more care. Unfortunately, Elrond will generally win out over Gil-galad in lists for his Magic, Mount, 3 Fate, and Foresight points. He's objectively a more versatile and better designed profile than Gil-galad. Real shame for the High King of the Noldor.
Faramir's Wizard Pupil wouldnt work for Recon's condition because once models are off the board they are not within range of the effect. Faramir would have Dominant 2, but nobody else would. Still for sure going to steal a scenario like Hold Ground a few times just as you said. Gil-Galad with Strength is a machine its true, but still, why did they take Heroic Defence away from him? That was also an incredible call if someone surrounded and Heroic Striked against you - you are likely to have comparable fight and win but even if you lose you are able to survive. Now its just risking a swift trip to flubbed roll city and dying if you dive for a hero and get swamped. It was also literally the only reason Sauron would ever Flames of Evil him which means it is now a flavour fail.
In my reading of the rules, as long as the models were within Faramir's range when they left the board, they would still benefit from the Dominant 2. This is probably worthy of an FAQ though.
@alastairking9046 No FAQ needed because that is exactly contrary to what Dominant says. "If a model would gain this special rule whilst in range of another model or a specific area of the board and then Moves off the board, they will not gain the benefit of this rule." Only static Dominant of the model counts for Recon.
Ride out seems so out of place in this list, I think even pure Rohan defenders of the pelennor could be better than ride out. But having said that, I have not played it, and I am very willing to be proven wrong
Speaking personally, I think it could have easily been switched out for either of the other two mounted Rohan options - all of them seem pretty decent!
![40K - THE GREAT NACHMUND WAR [1]: VIGILUS | Warhammer 40,000 Lore/History](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUV3k-0eNg/mqdefault.jpg)
I think a big thing to note on Ride Out, if you call a March with a Hero (such as a free one via Aragorn), you can ignore the charge requirement as you can't charge while Marching. You can do that if your opponent has just gotten within the 10" as a way to escape and put more distance between you for another turn or two of kiting.
Brah, that is excellent
Haven't heard anyone suggest that - a great point!
Would be interesting to see it play out, with all your models having to stay within 6" but it is a solid idea as a work around for sure in the early game.
I personally think elf factions besides lothlorien got a huge buff. Lots of stuff around them got nerfed, no more boromir banner out classing your army. Elf shooting is above average, the big one is for 9 points base they get f5, shoot 3, d5, high courage elven made hand and a half sword so they can choose to 2 hand or not and now that 2 hand keeps 6s its worth spamming now. I personally think the 2 handed elven made needs to be inbuilt their cost now.
Also there's a potential that the Emperor won't give F5 now - if the treatment to Boromir's banner is anything to go off of!
Defenders of the pelennor field, terror frontline, good shooting, F4 backline, decent magic, 6 inch banner. Remembers me of a certain list...
It definitely does! I think you'd struggle to fit all of that in below 800pts though, given the cost of the heroes you'd need to take and the ghosts for the terror - and still probably end up with a much lower model count!
@GollumGamers most certainly think it was wishful thinking hahaha.
At 650 last alliance you get a 30 model army, with 10 strenght 3 shots of which 7 are elves, amazing battleline, elrond and isildur, so ring shenanigans , wrath of bruinen can opener, foresight which synergizes amazingly well with the whirl of blades special rule, id say its up there for this 650 pick, naturally elven ring elrond will be your leader very ranky
Yeah imo I think Elrond and Isildur is defo the way to go!
I've also found 650 to be an absolute sweet spot for LA. You always take Elrond & Isildur and the rest can vary. I've recently played E & I both on horse, 1 banner, 9 elf bows, 5 elf swords and 12 num spear & shield (29 models) and did well against my buddy's The Black Gate. BTW Elrond is quite good even against heavy stuff like a Mordor Troll Chieftain with F7 and the new two-handed rule and not a pillow-fighter like before. He actually charged & h-striked & got a 6 & put the hurt on the big guy thx to the new 2-handing (LotW and a banner helps)
600-650 is actually a very good spot for LA (650 is the best; maxes out the two warbands - 32 is fine for an elite army at 650) with Elrond and Isildur but 700 starts pushing it even with 2x banners to support a wide battleline. Don't sleep on mounted Isildur because just like Elrond he also gets more mileage out of the two-handed rule when mounted (even without LotW). BTW you can get 40 models at 800 with Elrond (with horse; he is great with a horse for the 4 att on the charge for 2-handing and calculated/guaranteed channeled "bruinen-bombs" with a wider AoE/threat range with a horse - he has even got Expert Rider now), Isildur on foot w/ring and a Riv Captain along with 13 bows or 39 with 12 bows if you want to give every non-bow wielding Riv Warrior a shield (9 of them). 37 + 12 bows with both Elrond and Isildur on horse... I think pumping up those numbers as much as you can is the way to go along with Elrond and Isildur who are both absolutely top notch in this ed. (might consider Elendil at 700)
On another note, I would've picked Rivendell (Knights) instead of Realms of Men (below LA). Despite weak special rules (although Invoke the Bruinen is decent), what really makes it strong is the buffed Elrond, giga-buffed Arwen and the slightly buffed Knights (1pt cheaper + elven-made lances + less prevalent Blinding Light). The new Channeling makes Wrath of Bruinen so damn good and coupled with a strong Arwen a pure Knight list is quite strong. Once that omega-buffed Glorfindel comes to Riv (along with others in AoME - I hope the twins are good), it's gon' get even better. I think even mixed arms Warrior-Knight lists are p. good with how strong the heroes supporting them are.
Don't underestimate old Bilbo, in Riv-Knights ^^ especially after lines clashed, he can be a real annoyance, by still having the old rules for the Ring
I would not underestimate geriatric Bilbo v2 of course, I just forgot to mention him lol. He can indeed be p. good and is defo viable but I often don't take him because the hobbit silliness dilutes my Noldorin horse-archers of Fingon in the 2nd/3rd Age fantasy when I go pure Knights & mounted heroes :p
@@xenosophont I still struggle adapting to not having the free might from Aragorn strider every turn when playing Riv knights 😅🙈
@@neylina8384 no more Aragorn/Boromir is rough (altho the twins are comin in AoME) but the absolute wrathspam between the daddy & daughter dynamic duo is a nice substitute. What I really want to try out though is sort of a warriors-knights mixed arms list with Elrond and the new Gigachadfindel: two absolute LotW 2-hander horse kangs
@@xenosophont for 2 beat stick heroes I would probably go either Fornost for Glorfindel or Lindon for Elrond + Gil.. I don't really like the Rivendell makeup outside of Riv-Knights.. since the Army Bonus as of such is kinda meh
Just ents 🌳 really enjoying them and love the balance of fun/playable experience
Dominant trees incoming! 😁
Thanks for the content! Please release the full Top 5 lists for each of you.
Unsure exactly who had what as we recorded a couple of weeks ago now - but we had mostly the same picks apart from the Realms of Men and Last Alliance, which only Ali and Adam respectively had picked!
@@GollumGamers I see, it felt from the discussion as tho you had more differing opinions. Maybe you could include the full lists in the next episodes? Thanks again!
@@voice_of_terra7228 So as I still have the list this is what I provided Eliott with initially as my top 5:
Top 5 Armies of Middle earth Good lists (in no particular order atm)
1. Defenders of the Hornburg
2. Minas Tirith
3. Defenders of the Pelenor
4. Rivendell
5. Realms of Men
Honourable mention 1: Return of the King
Honourable mention 2: Men of the West
Honestly still think the list with boromirs banner is still the best gondor list. I think it outclasses minas tirith and anything denethor brings.
I think it's the troop choices that swung it for us - Citadel Guard are so good now with Irolas! And Boromir running around killing stuff and not risking leader VPs is really great
@GollumGamers I just think the banner essentially makes you the ultimate fight 4 army that essentially still performs as a pseudo dragon emperor where you get so many banner rerolls that you will win all the combats regardless what your opponent brings in most cases.
@GollumGamers still not sure on that. Mt has honestly always been a vanilla mid list without boromirs banner imo, boromir banner was essentially the dragon emperor version 1 and really allows a basic mid army imo to win so many combats it shouldn't.
can say a lot, as I hate good armies
cant wait for the evil video :D
It'll be coming out soon! 😊
I think you have a mistake. Citadel Guards do not get +1 to wounded when shoting. Only in hand-to-hand combat. Anyone can confirm or deny?
Yeap, only when making strikes
Yep where I've wrote on the graphic Citadel Guard shooting, that's just meant to be a separate point saying that the good shooting is a bonus of the list - and another bonus is that you get the +1 in combat 😊
@@GollumGamers yes you are right! There is a separator there :)
For Minas Tirith, I gotta say I like this list better than what you guys proposed; long live the Citadel Guard spam!
650 points | 42 models
Minas Tirith
Denethor, Steward of Gondor: (50)
7x Citadel Guard: Longbow (63)
1x Citadel Guard: Spear (9)
5x Guard of the Fountain Court (50)
1x Warrior of Minas Tirith: Banner (33)
Irolas, Captain of the Guard: (65)
6x Citadel Guard: Longbow (54)
6x Citadel Guard: Spear (54)
Faramir, Captain of Gondor: Exchange armour and bow for heavy armour, Horse, Shield (Without Bow) (125)
4x Warrior of Minas Tirith: Shield (36)
4x Citadel Guard: Spear (36)
5x Knight of Minas Tirith (75)
Pretty great for 650!
It's egregious that Gil-galad doesn't have Heroic Strike anymore (along with the lack of shield and horse). He's meant to be the greatest elven warrior of the Second Age, but can't Strike against the most powerful models.
There is 0 incentive to take him over Elrond in The Last Alliance, which is a shame, because he is meant to be the overall leader alongside Elendil. And there is less incentive to take Lindon, when Rivendell is simply the better-written army.
Heroic Strength is nice, but Gil-galad had that last edition, and so isn't gaining anything new. For the increase in points, he has only lost resources (Shield, Horse, Strike, and Blood and Glory).
Strike when you're fight 9 and it's gone down to d3 feels like a bit of a waste anyway. Apart from Treebeard, Sauron and the Balrog, there will be very few times a strike would reliably outfight him. Meanwhile with natural reroll for duel roll, a banner and a spear support, he has 6 dice plus more might without strike to win. He ultimately dies because he 1 v 1s Sauron, so should be able to be killed but it will be tough to do so and will require a huge amount of luck and resources.
@JonHalls I wouldn't call having Strike a waste at Fight 9, especially not when Gil-galad also has an Elven-made weapon to increase his chances of winning. The very few times it would come up are exactly the situations he would benefit most from.
There are a number of Fight 8 heroes that will be able to Strike to tie or exceed his Fight, including profiles like Elendil, Glorfindel, Beorn, and the Mordor Troll Chieftain.
The fact that he dies against Sauron is already represented by him having 1 Fate. I'm sure he will be alright this edition, but the point is that it's silly that Gil-galad, more than any other elf lord, would be unable to Strike. It's not a very accurate thing in the slightest.
@@Glowflight It was beyond stupid and sloppy to give him Resolve instead of Strike. Limiting both Elendil and GG to only 3 Actions was a whole 'nother level of dumb design. I get the idea behind reducing Actions to make the selection more impactful but if any heroes deserved to get 4-5 actions it was absolute legends like those two, not some Hobbit (tm) abomination
@@xenosophont Considering how limited their lists are, Gil-galad and Elendil both deserved more care. Unfortunately, Elrond will generally win out over Gil-galad in lists for his Magic, Mount, 3 Fate, and Foresight points. He's objectively a more versatile and better designed profile than Gil-galad. Real shame for the High King of the Noldor.
Faramir's Wizard Pupil wouldnt work for Recon's condition because once models are off the board they are not within range of the effect. Faramir would have Dominant 2, but nobody else would. Still for sure going to steal a scenario like Hold Ground a few times just as you said.
Gil-Galad with Strength is a machine its true, but still, why did they take Heroic Defence away from him? That was also an incredible call if someone surrounded and Heroic Striked against you - you are likely to have comparable fight and win but even if you lose you are able to survive. Now its just risking a swift trip to flubbed roll city and dying if you dive for a hero and get swamped. It was also literally the only reason Sauron would ever Flames of Evil him which means it is now a flavour fail.
Yeah losing both Defence and Strike defo feels odd 😅
In my reading of the rules, as long as the models were within Faramir's range when they left the board, they would still benefit from the Dominant 2. This is probably worthy of an FAQ though.
@alastairking9046 No FAQ needed because that is exactly contrary to what Dominant says.
"If a model would gain this special rule whilst in range of another model or a specific area of the board and then Moves off the board, they will not gain the benefit of this rule."
Only static Dominant of the model counts for Recon.
New edition tournament happening today in Aus 28th of dec
As the T.O. that's true! Additionally we've also got the Green Dragon Open on the 4th and 5th of Jan, so via time difference we win again!
Alex
@@MtnGoatGaming I literally saw about both of those tournaments the following morning after we recorded two episodes 😅
Would really pay if Elliot did watch the film or did his research 😅
Oops 😁😂
I'm only taking Thorin's company, in barrels, with leggy and tauriel in 2025. So there.
Standard from you Tim 🥰
More livestream 😍
Hope to see you there next week!
Hey I've seen this before
Yeah you and many others got there long before us on this one 😂
Realms of men is esentially the only playable list in this edition thus far.
Ride out seems so out of place in this list, I think even pure Rohan defenders of the pelennor could be better than ride out. But having said that, I have not played it, and I am very willing to be proven wrong
Speaking personally, I think it could have easily been switched out for either of the other two mounted Rohan options - all of them seem pretty decent!
I whole heartdly agree with you, Ride out had no place on this list. I blame Adam & Eliott 🤣
@alastairking9046 it's an odd choice for a top 5 list for sure
First!