I actually think that she genuinely reformed and became a Looney Tunes granny after Jokers death in Batman Beyond but her rebellious granddaughters probably found out who she once was and who their grandfather was. It’s like Kylo Ren trying to be like his grandfather Darth Vader That’s why she seemed so disappointed in her granddaughters after she bailed them out
It's my head Canon that Harley originally formed the Jokerz. Like how she form a Joker themed rebellion in the first Gods Amoung Us game. However now that the Joker was dead and thus no longer manipulating her paired with her education as a psychologist allowed her mind to heal over time and she eventually left the gang inorder to finally move on.
Something I'd like to point out: Psychologically, Batman has seen some REALLY messed up stuff in his life. Demons, monsters, ancient cult rituals, mass-murderers, torture chambers, slave farms, you name it, he's seen it. But the video shows a clip at about 17:45, of Joker backhanding Harley. What does Batman do? He flinches. He isn't hit, he's not in danger. But he reflexively flinches because he knows what's about to happen not just physically, but emotionally to Quinn. The man who can take Bane's fist to the face without blinking, looks away from the domestic violence. That single scene alone was an indescribably powerful teachable moment to my younger self when I saw it the first time.
I love the angle they went with her as a psychological villain, but not as a goofy therapist, nor the gold/black costume. Really wish she was Bruce's therapist long-term.
@@OpticalSorcererI think they mean that they think as her character develops through the show, it'll become a possibility that she'll help Bruce more often
I know that people see her as a victim soley, but Harely herself is a abuser towards the people of Gotham by tormenting them either for giggles or if she thinks It’ll impress Joker, didn’t matter if they were innocent. Even the orginal iteration did some messed up stuff to the robins. She has a lot of skeletons alongside Joker. Which is why I think it would be interesting if they took a more obvious “sometimes the abused goes on to abuses others” approach because she’s not JUST a victim. She’s a brutal criminal just as Joker is and is an accomplice to Joker. At least this way, she’s seen as a victim, but it’s reminded that she’s not innocent at all.
But that’s like the point of her character. The og version did some messed up stuff but episodes like Harley’s Holiday showed us that she’s deep down a good person Of course she’s not entirely innocent but you still kinda feel bad for her because she’s so naive and delusional
@@sicksadworld765 You have it backward. Harley is capable of good deeds, but deep down, she is a bad and broken person. That is the truth of her story, a human being who has the tools to do better but chooses the destructive path, aka Joker because she still tortured Tim Drake in the end. What good person would do that to a teenager? There is only so much sympathy you can feel for naivety when all it does is end in the tragedy of others.
@ I think she wasn’t involved in the torture and I doubt that Joker would let her touch anything in that room even if she wanted to. But kidnapping lil bro and having no problem with Joker doing it is already bad enough Anyway this whole sequence always felt super out of character to me😅 I wouldn’t say that she’s a bad person but neither innocent and still capable of doing bad things. In the end she’s just another victim of the Joker but being a victim doesn’t mean that you’re entirely innocent or can’t be a perpetrator and harm others The thing is that her writing in Btas is inconsistent af, her entire personality and skills changed with each season. In Season 4 she struggled to open a door of a shopping mall and like 2 weeks later she kidnapped Batman like it was nothing
@@sicksadworld765but then you remember she's a grown @$$ woman fully capable of breaking free hell she had several chances but instead chooses to acts like a child but not even children are that stupid or evil
@@sicksadworld765 In fact, both of them tortured Tim. Is this even shown or stated? And yes, Joker would, in fact, allow Harley to hurt Tim if it meant getting under his skin. How else would she have gotten him to follow orders, even if it was for a brief moment? Even if she didn't, she followed through on Joker's plan. Could it have been out of character? Sure, but we know Harley always goes back to Joker. Victimhood doesn't absolve Harley of crooked behavior. She is a victim of Joker, but Tim and other people are victims of Harley, even if Joker is leading the charge she is still allowing and following through his plans. I understand you aren't saying she is 100% innocent, but torture is torture, even before Tim she terrorized Gotham next to a nutcase. Harley is one of those tragic cases where she could have given Gotham a better future but chose crime instead.
I do like when they use Harley's victimization as a plot point and a spot for character development as her own character, but it is so refreshing with the new New Batman Adventures to have her as her own character with no Joker connection. As an aside it's always great to see them use her psychologist background.
@@SerumLakeisn’t that a commentary on the state of healthcare for the mentally ill? I’m fairly sure that was on purpose, her being bad at her job and kind of crazy. Inmates running the asylum.
@@MisterDriskulAdding that in the Telltale version, Harley Quinn is the "dominant" in the Clown duo, as the Joker is her "subordinate", as an inverted situation from the regular relationship between them in the DC multiverse.
Many people say that Harley Quinn from Caped Crusader is the scariest representation of the character, but many forget that this title belongs to herself from Justice League: Gods and Monsters.
Oh yeah, especially since the Caped Crusader version felt confused if we’re supposed to side with her or not. The Gods and Monsters one however was straight up a serial killer who viewed everything she was doing a fun.
I don't understand the weird conflation that Harley being a Victim means her abuses have to be currently happening. She can have her previous tragedy, but also work as her own unit. While I don't think Harleen becomes Harley Quinn without the Joker; that's only an origin. She can easily move past her beginnings and become something new. Some people are just weird man.
The problem is that they have been trying to force quinn into a gurl boss character in mosern day. Harley’s really only very entertaining when she’s in her conflicting relationship with the joker because the Batman universe deals with mental illnesses and Harley is a representation of toxic love. I’m not saying Harley should always stick with her victim role but the moment she severs her ties with the joker then that’s that-her character ends there and she shouldn’t be a villain nor a hero or vigilante. It just doesn’t make sense on a narrative role that she should still be focused as a major character once she quits her life of crime because the only thing on the narrative scale that keeps harley in the fighting role is her connection to joker.
@forastero54321 All I can say is bad writing and bad faith is just that. Bad. Art with no soul is slop. The idea can work, but it takes actual passion and effort to pull it off. Anybody can haphazardly string together words, but a writer makes stories.
Totally agree, but I will stand on the fact that once she severs her ties with the joker her time on the spotlight should end. I love harley for who she is with the joker, the drama, rooting for her to escape his grasp. She just isn’t as much of an interesting character on her own outside of the birds of prey from time to time. Her highest achievement as a character can only occur if she manages to escape the joker’s grasp because then she’d be able to overcome what not even Batman himself can do.
I like her portrayal in Injustice. After she lost her Joker she grew as a person, became part of Batman's family, Bruce helped her and she helped Gotham in return. She's still... Not very sane, but with them she can be herself and use her skills for good, she's still super smart and Batman put this for good use. Even when she saw her mind version of the Joker, she fought him, she won. I think that's the best "good" version of her, she became her own self. (Weird how for my knowledge they never portrayed this version of Harley anywhere)
The main thing that bothers me about the injustice version of Harley is them glossing over the fact that she's part of the reason Superman went nuts. She helped kidnap a pregnant Lois Lane and did surgery on her to make her nuke detonator. A nuke that she also helped plant. It's ridiculous
I do love that in Harley’s holiday when Batman takes her back to Arkham he gives her dress to her and says I had bad day to once and I never had a problem with that Harley has a relationship with ivy or how she is in Batman caped crusader.
@@TheDarkAngel969 I don't really remember that. They had issues in the Harley Quinn Batman movie where Ivy and her new BF (who was also a pos) tried to end all human life. But in general they were fine in the show. Ivy did tell Harley off a few times, like with them not getting a Christmas tree, but she wasn't manipulative or slapping Harley around.
14:20 I do love that Harley and Barbara’s friendship has been bubbling under the surface across all mediums for quite some time. Being on the Birds of Prey together in the comics, their amazing friendship/chemistry in “Harley Quinn” (helped by their voice actresses being sisters), here in “Caped Crusader”.
As a spin off of that, can we pls get Jason and Harley bumping into each other at some trauma survivor's group. Where Harley was just checking it out and Jason didn't really want to go.
DC and WB definitely seem conflicted about having such an abusive relationship at the forefront of such a popular character. To the extent they cut or reshot any of the scenes in the first Suicide Squad movie that illustrated the toxic and abusive side of their relationship and made it seem more amicable
I'm also conflicted on it. On the one hand it's good to have her overcome an abusive relationship, but on the other, it's not exactly ideal to have her defining character trait being that she was an abused girlfriend...
Harley was always meant to be a tragic character and a warning not to fall into toxic relationships She was never meant to be a "4th" pillar I still find that ridiculous
@@SerumLake It is an interesting issue. On one hand, some people who have gone through abuse could probably use a character that represents their experience. On the other hand, it is a bit overdone to define a character that way and often badly done. I feel like Harley is an exception to the poorly written side, but I can also see why they'd want to step back from that.
@@SerumLake But why does she need to be ideal? I think that's why she's popular - she's familiar and humanized by her massive character flaws, especially when put against a menagerie of other female characters who feel identically 'strong' and 'admirable' and 'extremely boring'.
Although I’m not particularly a fan of the Harley Quinn animated series (especially it’s most recent season where Harley and Ivy commit mass acts of terror only for Superman to claim that she’s a hero, that particularly just rubbed me the wrong way) I can appreciate that they are reinventing the character while acknowledging her negative traits
You know what would be a neat version of Harley Quinn and Joker Dynamic? If the Joker became more dependent on Harley. Like its starts off with Joker using Harley but after a few episodes you get a scene where the Joker straight tries to save Harley over his own hide, maybe due to an act from Harley in the episode or a past one. That way Harley becomes less a victim but more of a method actor doctor. Slightly getting through to the Clown. Then it becomes a question on who is dependant on who? Harley for the Joker. OR the Joker for Harley.
I hate to agree but you’re right. The only time I ever saw him truly vulnerable with Harley was in that comic where he also s3xually assaulted a woman. There was one panel where he was in tears, clutching her dress and she stood there, holding a drink and not looking too interested. Neither of these actions fit his persona in my opinion.
A version I'd want to see is one where Joker and Harley pretend to have a different kind of unhealthy relationship every time they show up; with the secret being that they're actually just putting on a show for whoever they need to emotionally manipulate at the time and their real relationship is a perfectly healthy mutual friendzone because they both just want to watch Gotham burn with popcorn and soda.
Harley Quinn really is one of those characters that just exploded into pop culture, becoming one of the most popular superhero characters ever. To me OG Harley is still hard to beat especially with Arleen Sorkin voice and characterization. She hasn't been topped even though Tara is the current most well known Harley. I do like how Joker and Harley's relationship in The Batman was better but still not that great. I keep forgetting Harley is in Batman the brave and the bold. I really liked Harley in the Arkham games where bith Arleen and Tara portrayed her in along with the Injustice games The Harley Quinn show Harley growing and becoming better is similar to her DCEU version, getting out of the Joker's shadow. Honestly I have met people like Harley, being co dependent and never learning from bad relationships. I was there for a minute but others just want to stay there that it's sad.
@SerumLake yeah same could be said for Invader Zim as well with Gir. Honestly George Lucas was smart to keep the merchandising rights for Star Wars after a New Hope came out. I know Marvel is glad they got the merchandising rights back for Spidey from Sony.
9:45 The 2019 Superhero Girls is not a soft reboot. It's a complete break from the story, style and characterizations of the web series. It was created by Lauren Faust-- likely in an attempt by WB to recreate the age, gender and culture spanning success of the G4 My Little Pony--derived from her earlier SBFF shorts for DC Nation, even bringing back the lead voice actresses to reprise their roles in the reboot.
I wouldn't say The Batman's Joker doesn't abuse his Harley at all. Her starring episode carries the clear implication that he's only going to be all smiles with her as long as she goes along with what he wants. There's that one telling moment where Harley tries giving Joker orders, so he stops smiling, gets up in her face and goes "You? Ordering me around? Don’t go too far. I’ve only indulged you because it AMUSED me!", leaving her visibly shaken. At the end of the episode, he also ditches her at the first convenience, leaving her to die in a fire while he makes his escape. The show doesn't develop their relationship much after that, but it seems pretty clear that he barely rates her above an amusing novelty that can be put down or discarded the moment she gets inconvenient.
I really like the recent trend of having Harley and Barbara as friends. Super Hero Girls, Harley Quinn and Caped Crusader all approached that in very different ways, and I've enjoyed all of them.
Harley Quinn has always been defined by her relationship with the Joker since it was such a massive part of her roots. But I like how throughout the years, DC and the many people who've written adaptations of her character have tried making her more than just a victim, or not even a victim at all. The Harley Quinn show displays her flaws and faults openly, gives her some more personality, and makes her more than just Joker's victim. Meanwhile, Caped Crusader reinventes her in a great way, taking away her link to the Joker but still giving her more depth as a result.
The only problem I feel is that Joker has to be a part of it at least in the origin. Harley Quinn is more than capable of standing on her own without the joker. But Harley Quinn never exists unless Joker is involved. The character can stand on it's own but the origin is too tightly connected to Joker if that makes any sense.
@@nightmarearcade2663 I don't think it has to be though if they don't want it to be. They seem to want to move it from a result of the Joker to more a result of Trauma. They're playing around with what her core story is because some characters don't need that set in stone like Batman or Superman
But at the same time can we really say she isn't like Batman and superman in this regard? She has what's arguably the most recognizable villain origin story of all time and I feel like changing it to the point that it's unrecognizable just doesn't work with her. Like my biggest issue with this version of Harley is that she's only Harley Quinn in name only. She's written well don't get me wrong but can you really say this is Harley Quinn? She acts and behaves nothing like her and I'm all for new interpretations but there's a difference between a new interpretation and just making a new character. And this version of Harley is basically an entirely different character.
@@nightmarearcade2663 Characters have shifted in the past whether it's because a writer got curious and hit the jackpot or because times changed. Batman now and silver age are very different while keeping some core aspects. Many of the heroes and villians will have their stories recontexualized to facilitate a new story. Caped Harley is one that focuses on her psychologist part instead of her as a victim.
Which in turn brings up another issue with her which is that she's basically just a gender bent Dr. Hugo strange. Like outside of her motive that is basically what she is in this show. When you only focus on the psychologist aspect of her then she just becomes Strange resulting in a lot of people wondering why they didn't just use him instead.
Although the original BTAS Harley and the injustice version of Harley will always be my favorites, I really appreciate what Crusader’s version of Harley going for. It almost gives me “Absolute Batman” vibes. Where you take away an aspect of the character.’s background, in this case, her relationship with the joker, and see what you have left with this new adaptation of the character.
Honestly i don’t mind when harley has an origin without joker’s involvement kinda like what they did with the caped Crusader show. I also don’t mind when she’s a solo villain, like how they did her in the gotham adventures comics. As for my favorite version of her i’d say the one from the Batman cartoon.
Dr. Chase Meridian is kinda like a mirror version of Harley Quinn: Both are female psychologists involved with law enforcement and criminals but whereas Harley had a fascination with Criminally Insane Characters who flashily commit their crimes Chase was intrigued by Vigilantes and their need to symbolically save the day. Both are infatuated with their top patients but whereas Harley was dependent to the point of abuse and sought comfort from Ivy Chase understood Batman's importance thus aided to keep his identity a secret whilst helping Bruce with balancing his multiple identities. I could easily see these 2 as college roomates or understudies of Dr. Leland (another prominent female psychiatrist). Still could have been portrayed better though.
The recent game Batman Arkham Shadow had a very interesting take on Harley Quinn. Even though it is set during her pre-supervillain days when she's just a well-meaning prison psychiatrist, you can see a lot of character traits that will emerge later. She cares a lot about the prisoners and tries to see the best in them (which Joker will eventually exploit), she's highly frustrated at the system for stymieing her attempts to reform them, she feels her boss and coworkers don't take her seriously, and she has a very violent temper when pressed. It shows in her good qualities that will later be twisted into villainy, which is a nice counterpoint to other versions that show her struggling with reform later on.
The game Gotham Knights also had a slightly different take on Harley, where she's broken up with the Joker but remained villainous, leaning on her psychologist background to become a manipulative TV therapist/cult leader, encouraging people to "become their best selves" through petty crime.
If it hasn't been mentioned already, there's a great moment of Harley's growth in Injustice 2 when she's under the effects of Scarecrow's Fear Gas. It was a good moment to show that though Harley was still traumatized by the Joker, she was trying her best to heal. As Extra Credits put it, "Harley Quinn is not okay. And that, is okay."
While I dont like how DC has made Harley an anti-hero in the same universes where she commited some serious terrorist attacks on anything from the elderly to underage, I can appriciate this version for how she's a villain without any excuse. You cant blame a bad relationship here, she's 100% the villain and needs to go down.
The Problem I have with Batman: Caped Crusader's depiction of Harley Quinn is simply that she should not be named Harley Quinn. The Name Harley Quinn was given to her by the Joker as a kind of pet name when he began to manipulate her. In Caped Crusader, she never met this Universe's version of the Joker, so it would make more sense for her to call herself Harlaquinn, after the figure of medieval theatre. They are two very different characters with two very different backgrounds and stories. This simple name change would have been a perfect way to separate the woman who went from a victim to finding herself and gaining her independence, and the monster with a conscience that we find in Caped Crusader.
You know they never call her Harley Quinn (or even Harley) in the show. It's only in the marketing material. Edit: It's the same with Harvey (who is never called Two-Face), Basil (who is ever called Clayface) and Natalia (who is never called Nocturna).
I don't agree that changing or covering up Harley's abused/abusive past is a detriment to the character. In fact, that part of her, I just now realized, is the very core of her character. It is her origin. It is her "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility". It's the murdered parents of Bruce Wayne. Seeing how she evolves past the Joker into a healthy individual, or double down with the Joker, or continues her self-destructive tendencies without the Joker, THAT is what makes her character interesting. I agree that the new Caped Crusader is an intriguing character... But just not as Harley Quinn.
Harley Quinn as an abusive victim is a plot point I feel is important. Not cause her being a victim is important to her character. But because people hurt her and then she gets up with a smile on her face and continues to kick ass. Lots of dv survivors(Including myself) love seeing her current self as someone who got out and rebuilt her life surrounded by people who accept her warts and all. Modern day Harley Quinn isn't defined by her victimhood. She's defined as a survivor who never stops smiling and builds a life she loves post dv. I wish more writers would focus on that aspect of her.
I dunno. Harley as victim is a powerful and resonant story. We all know that person who, time and again, goes back to an abusive ex or has a string of them. We feel sorry for them, yes, but there comes a point where it becomes that person's fault that they continue with the pattern
Respectfully disagree about how key the relationship with the Joker is. The original version was drawn into a life of crime by getting into a relationship with the Joker and even after leaving him was stuck as a C-list villain, unable to go straight. That's like Batman having his parents murdered in front of him when he was a kid, or Wonder Woman being an emissary from a land of Amazons or Superman being the last survivor of a doomed planet. It's a key part of the character concept, an obvious hook for characterization and something that always goes reverted to. Without it, there's just not much left that's distinctive about the character. And honestly, I think C-list screw up supervillain who got seduced into a life of crime and would like to go straight but can't is a pretty interesting concept. Don't get me wrong - I like the Harlequin of "Caped Crusader" and think it's an interesting supervillain concept. Kind of a dark mirror of Batman himself. But that version is a conscious, willful villain whose psychiatric skills are her core abilities - a very different character aside from the name.
I think that something crucial is lost without the harley/joker dynamic. With Harley as this burlesque pratfalling character, Joker is forced into the (no pun intended) straight man role and you can sense the frustration he has towards Harley because of it. As the audience we can see its funny but even with his appreciation for comedy can the joker accept being the butt of the joke? You can argue that Harley doesn't need the Joker but I'd say that the opposite is true and the Joker needs Harley: a foil that can get under his skin in a way that no one else ever could.
Personally I am not a huge fan of the Harley quinn cartoon. In my opinion it is just another obnoxious "adult" cartoon that throws f-bombs around like sweets and features an unlikeable cast of characters (except Kite man. He's ok). I am so tired of Quinn being put on a high pedestal. I recognise that she is popular and I appreciate DC wanting to push her in new directions but making her on the level of the bloody Trinity is just ridiculous. She is a villain not a bloody joke spouting anti hero like Deadpool. She may be a victim but she is still a villain and the dcau acknowledged this fact so the fact that dc are pushing her so hard as a "hero " is just eye rolling. Her popularity also came at thr expense of Ivy. Ivy was a great villain but now she just exist to be the love interest of Quinn.
To be fair, in season 1 of the Harley Quinn animated series Poison Ivy is in a relationship with Kite Man, not Harley, and in season 4, she has her own story, where she's running The Legion of Doom, so she isn't just Harley's love interest. Also, I think there's an episode in season 2 or 3 where Catwoman points out to Poison Ivy that she's spending too much time with Harley and not doing any plant related crimes for herself.
Agreed! Ivy has always canonically been a plant-loving humanity hating extremist agroterrorist and now it feels completely disregarded in favor of new 52 and that ONE girl power episode of BTAS. Harley could’ve had any other female love interest but Ivy is honestly one of the worst since she’s literally a maneater and her whole thing is she relies on being a seductress as her power. Harley is canonically a jealous person. Harley is also canonically a horrible person. She’s a victim, but still a VILLAIN. Two Face and Mr. Freeze have more tragic moments & backstories than her. I’m of the belief that Harley shouldn’t be turned into a ‘hero’. She’s not mentally ill, same as the Joker, she’s basically the DC equivalent as the women who write letters to Ted Bundy. Bleaching her skin in New 52 removed a key aspect of her character/character design which is her insane devotion to the Joker. Not to mention Kaley Quoco is a horrible voice for Harley Quinn. I don’t know what the obsession is with getting people who AREN’T from New York to play a character with a New York accent, but it sounds horrible every time. Even Tara Strong had moments where it was noticeable. Harley Quinn in the cartoon sounds like a damn cali girl half the time, and the show has the same writing style as Velma. A bunch of pop culture references despite the fact that this is a DC show?? It feels like one of those weird Mindy Kaling cartoons that just wants to cater to millennials. Also, the designs are ugly ASF. The Joker looks horrible. Why is Killer Croc talking about BEYONCÉ IN A DC SHOW?? It’s a drastic departure from the dark, serious tone of other adult DC movies like Teen Titans. It just feels like one of those YA cartoons that wanna be family guy.
I do feel that there is a level of violent crime after which "I'm emotionally abused by a sociopath" stops being an excuse, and most versions of Harley have hit that.
I honestly like her og version the best but I have to that I like the version from the HQ series quite alot She’s such a overall well written character and they found the perfect balance between her being a brutal badass and a vulnerable, naive troubled woman This show deserves it’s own video btw
Never a bad character analysis from you. As well as it's always nice seeing a popular character and their multiple iterations and seeing where they have been to what else to have become.
She dosn't need to be a victim but she still need to be relatable. I mean whats even her deal agaist rich people? If she was ivy that would make sence since 90% of the eviroment destruction is caused by rich people or people in the politics that give it a pass (just look at harvey in the animated series) Or hell if they wanted to make her pure evil like the joker make her everyone her victim not just rich people
I actually love this take of Harley, and a lot of people in the fan spaces I’m in adore her and the new direction and her possibilities too. I’m pretty sure 90% of the reason everyone thinks she’s so hаtеd universally is because mіsоgуnіstіс DC fаnbоys have taken over the internet to the point where their voices are the loudest and go so unchallenged no one bothers to address them anymore. But the rest of the fandom isn’t represented by them, and we can’t let them bullу us into silence every time DC dares do something different. Thanks for adding your voice to the rest of us.
The one part that was in the original comic version of Mad love is Harley sleeping through college. The writers have since admitted they’re not a fan of it and suggested hardly did get her degree legitimately at least two works. I know of find ways to add that part the first is the birds of prey movie where it’s stated that Harley has a type which helps add to the reason joker broker the second is the Harlene comic from DC black label where Harley only slept with a professor. She was generally in love with, but it was later used as a scandal to mock her that she got her achievements through sex, but they do point out, and unless she was sleeping with the entire faculty, she would have to earn it legitimately.
I always Harley as a victim, but who became a bad person as well. Manipulated by Joker or not, she made a lot of those bad decisions herself. Ruinging her career, going into the vat, being with Joker for years assuming he loved her. I like when she takes accountability while also having to accept the "love" she had for Joker was one sided and blinded her to commit horrible acts, but he wasn't truly controlling her.
DC: We want to make Harley Quinn a tentpole character for our company! Everyone Else: Um, isn’t she a bit too inappropriate for that position, especially considering her incredibly abusive relationship with The Joker? DC: That is…a fair point, but don’t worry; we’ve already taken that into consideration and we have a few ideas for how we will tackle that particular issue. Everyone Else: Such as? DC: Well for starters, we’re going to have her break up with Joker cold turkey! Everyone Else: Okay, that’s good, but does that mean that she’s also getting a different name and costume too? DC: (tilts its head and raises its eyebrow) Why would we do that? Everyone Else: Well, if she’s going cold turkey, then it would make sense for her to no longer use the name that her abuser gave her or to have a clown motif, right? DC: Fair point? Everyone Else: You COULD still call her Harley though, since it has been used as a shortened version of her actual name, but you’d still have to give her a new superhero name though. DC: Yeah…about that! Everyone else: You’re not going to give her a new name, aren’t you? DC: NOPE! Everyone Else: Okay? Are you at least going to give her a new costume? DC: Oh yeah, we’ve got these GREAT new designs for her, here, have a look! Everyone Else: (Sees Harley’s New 52/Rebirth designs) Why do her designs range from looking like a hooker to looking like a roller derby girl to just looking like she’s in her underwear? DC: (Crap, they’re onto us, gotta think of something quick!) Uh, we wanted to show off her free spirited nature? Everyone Else: Uh huh! Sure ya did! Hey wait, why is she covered in body paint? Isn’t only her face supposed to look like a clown? DC: Oh, that’s not make up! You see, we changed her origin so that now, she was dropped into the same vat of chemicals that created The Joker. As such, she now has the same bleached white skin as he does! Everyone Else: WHAT? You just said that you were going to cut her off from Joker, now you’re just going to make her basically a lady version of him? DC: YEP! Isn’t that a GREAT idea??? Everyone Else: NO!!! That’s a terrible idea! Ugh, well, are you at least going to let her become a member of The Bat-Family or The Outsiders or something like that? DC: Well…sort of! We’re actually planning on having her be either a member of The Suicide Squad or the leader of The Birds of Prey! Everyone Else: Well, okay, having her on the Squad actually makes a lot of sense and-WAIT, WHAT WAS THAT LAST ONE!??? The Birds of Prey? Isn’t that Barbara Gordon’s team? Wait, what do you mean by her being the LEADER? DC: I’m glad you asked! You see, we’re going to be releasing a movie about The Birds of Prey that is ACTUALLY a Harley movie with them as glorified guest stars. Everyone Else: That sounds…kinda scummy and disrespectful to Barbara Gordon fans. That’s like not having Captain America be the leader of The Avengers! DC: Oh, and we’re also going to allow her to start breaking the 4th Wall and acting really silly and stupid and make crass lewd jokes and stuff. Everyone Else: So; you’re basically making her an unnecessary Deadpool knockoff that’ll annoy everyone? DC: …MAYBE? Actually, we’re also looking for a new artist for one of her books, tell us; how good can you draw her naked in a bathtub about to unalive herself with a toaster? EVERYONE ELSE:😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳 (YEAH. That last part was an ACTUAL THING that DC did!)
DC knows exactly who their readership is, unfortunately. And they'll keep peddling to that lowest common denominator for as long as it keeps making them money.
Yup. And this is the crux of the problem with the idea of turning Harley into an "independent" character. The thing people loved about classic Harley is she isn't independent. She's very much dependent. After a while, audience's wanted either someone to help her or for Harley to help herself. But, more damning that, DC themselves realize that, if they do that, the character Harley Quin would be no more. She would be changed into someone else. Someone the audience might not like. To compound that problem, in most of the times Harley becomes free, she either becomes boring, losing all motivation other than "I GOOD GIRL NOW!" or she becomes nothing but blatant Rule 34 bait. Everyone says they want Harley to be free. It's not that simple. Harley's draw is the tragedy of her situation and the flamboyance she exudes. And, yes, often eye candy as well. And those are all good things for a character to go through in a storytelling medium. It makes people sympathize with her. Like her. Wish to see more of her. It's not that she CAN'T be free, but without an intelligent, understanding writer who has a solid plan for her after her chains are broken, Harley becomes irrelevant if she's free. People want Harley to be freed. Not to be free. They want to see her be saved. Not to have that conflict removed.
I think making her also get dunked in the chemicals actually works with the new direction. It shifts the starting point of her arc much closer to the Joker, so that she has more that she needs to fight against in order to break off from him. Particularly the version where she "willingly" (emotional manipulation makes things complicated) jumps into the vat, its a physical representation of how far she's fallen, and how much that relationship has damaged her. The whole point is that she's not a lady version of the Joker, she wanted to be, but he'd never let her, and that is what eventually manages to get it through to her that she needs literally anything else.
What I don't get is why they're so damned scared of making an abused woman a huge character? Sure she leaves the Joker, that was a step in the right direction. But that shouldn't magically erase their history. DC needs to sit down and understand that 1. They have enough adult fans for this to not be an issue 2. Abuse isn't some slur or scary word to sweep under the rug. They wrote the character like this and they should stick to it. Show that it's something for her to overcome and fight, not to just forget and laugh about or ignore. All they're doing is making it seem like they find being an abuse victim as something shameful and dirty, or like their writers are afraid to take their own characters seriously
I remember the EXACT moment I started despising her in Injustice when she VERY willingly helped Joker nuke Metropolis sat back with a smile on her face as the city vaporized but after Superman killed Joker she's is SUDDENLY remorseful and acts like she never had a choice Thats when I realized how modern harley is the personification of "victim mentality" nothing is ever her direct fault it's always Joker's or society that is in the wrong but never herself despite the bad to downright horrific actions she does its never her fault or so she can the writers seem to believe
You know what I think would be interesting in a Joker and Harley duo? They genuinely love each other, Joker because she actually understands him and gets his jokes, and Harley because... Well she is into batshit insane and loves the Joker's schemes, no matter how deadly. This version if the Joker is Smart, athletic, calculated, and all the best types of Joker Insane. He knows damn well what he's doing, but in the heat of the moment he goes stir crazy trying all sorts of things to add onto the plan. Harley adores and supports Joker through it all, giving tips and advice when Joker hits a roadblock in his ideas. And she's also the one to keep Joker from getting totally unhinged in the heat of the moment because "A good joke isnt funny if it gets too out of hand." Or something like that. They truly complement each other in different ways, an inseparable duo.
I feel like the Isekai series doesn't get enough appreciation. It explores an idea that we don't really see enough of in these villains: Are they villains because they're inherently bad, or are they villains because they don't "fit" with current society? I honestly feel like some of the characters there would be an interesting topic of an essay in the future.
I love how the in the 2020 show Harleen was a somewhat separate character from Harley, like her own Jimity Cricket. And its something i hope sticks around. Also maybe the writers can give her pet Hyenas some more spotlight.
My issue with every Harley since New 52 is that writing assumes Harley being a victim was some kind of oversight or mistake, instead a deliberate choice. Modern Harley’s writers always have this snide perspective towards the OG as lesser because she remains loyal to Joker ‘till the end. Yet the original Harley was never a self insert role model the way the new ones try to be, because it was understood she was a bad guy. New Harley is written under the impression that she’s meant to be championed as independent while still being a criminal, but she’s not. Harley would be independent if she reformed and gave up the life Joker dragged her into. Just shipping her with Ivy instead is trading one abuser for a slightly nicer one, but fans aren’t ready for the conversation. The new version seen in Caped Crusader is the first instance of someone making it work because they just removed Joker from her backstory completely, she’s a rebel on her own terms.
I’ve been making that latter point about Ivy x Harley so much and I’m happy to see someone else get it! What’s the point of removing Harley Quin from someone who’s manipulative and abusive, to now shipping Harely with a character who’s specifically know to be manipulative and abusive as their whole super power? What, because she specifcally does it to men? Ivy outright SA’s people to mind control them, yet DC kinda just shrugs that part of Ivy under the rug and calls her a hero. It ruins the whole lesson of letting go of abusive toxic people, if your gonna place Harely with ANOTHER abusive character, doesn’t matter if Harely and Ivy are friends or if DC wants to make Ivy into a hero, Ivy still was a very toxic person to say the least and would make a terrible spouse if you think about it. That’s like vowing to never date your abusive ex, and instead you start dating Bill Cosby.
@@gscsilvavaladares7065 No-no but you see Clark Kent would obviously still be a good man and superman if he was raised by Lex Luthor's dad and not from a doomed planet... WonderWoman would totally still be a badass highly effective warrior if she was a temp from North Carolina with no combat training... John Constantine would totally still be a traumatized grumpy addict in and out from mental institutions if he hadn't summoned a demon in Newcastle... (Actually seeing John checking himself into Arkham for actual help only to check out the day after would be kinda funny). Point being all people have pivotal events or even their entire lives lives to blame or thank for the people they become. Removing those events would change the people they are. Sure some people may be closer than others, but in cases like these changing those events would fundamentally change them as people. Harley has no "reason" to become insane or lash out in such an absurd way unless she meets and is abused by the Joker. She may have eventually gotten severe issues and mental health illness from working as a psychiatrist in Gotham, she may not even have survived for long. But she wouldn't be Harley Quinn has she not bee through all that. Removing what happened to her also sends the message that it's something bad that you should hide and be ashamed of and that it lowers your ability to later become successful or happy. Or that the writers are uncomfortable with writing it. Abuse whether you like it or not is something that changed a person, sometimes fundamentally. It shouldn't be glorified, but it also shouldn't be hidden away. Removing it and pretending that the victim would have turned out the same is just a lie and only does a disservice to real abuse victims.
I don't see it. Without her original backstory she loses her connection to the Joker, She obviously loses her connection to Batman because he'd never tolerate a straight up villain, same goes for Catwoman. Harley would just be a typical B-Lister thug awaiting the Hammers of Justice like Mad Hatter, Zsasz, Or Calender Man. A total downgrade.
A note about 2019's DC Superhero girls version of Harley (I'm gonna get flamed in the comments for even talking about the show lol): That versión of Harley is actually more defined by her interaction with Barbara Gordon/Batgirl. A big part of her background there is that Harleen Quinzel and Barbara Gordon were friends back in Gotham and still are friends to each other after moving to Metrópolis, but neither of them knows of the other's secret costumed persona despite suspecting something. Barbara doesn't know Harleen is Harley Quinn and Harley doesn't know Babs is Batgirl. Pretty neat dynamic IMO
That show was so much fun! I also love how they parallel each other by having the same flaw, their obsessive idolization of a more prominent figure. And Harley becoming a villain on her own but inspired by the Joker, despite not meeting him until much later, felt natural rather than being ridiculous which is absolutely does just writing it out like that 😅
Personally I would like more things like the Harley from The Batman, where her and joker have an actually good relationship! It adds some nice spice to it, and just personally love a pair of kooky lovebirds
Haven't watched caped crusaders but I do like that Harley Quinn. The only thing is I don't like the colors of her outfit. Could have just kept the classic red/black or any other then that gold/green. Love the thought of magenta and teal but a) would match her hair in newer version (kind of) b) to bright for a calm character
I do want to suggest some episodes to talk about. Justice Legal Unlimited: Patriot Act (My favorite JL and JLU episode of all time) Static Shock: Jimmy (This one you might have to be careful when you upload it) Batman Beyond: The Last Resort
Gotta love "Patriot Act", although Eiling does have a point when the JLU succumb to moral entropy some offscreen years later on. No "ifs", it always leads to an inevitable "when", as seen with how they're history and replaced by the Legion of Super-Heroes during the 30th century. I think Gargoyles' "Deadly Force" did gun messaging better (they even deconstruct the "kid-friendliness" of laser guns) and even forwards the plot while "Jimmy" is quite skippable in the long run. Same with Teen Titans' "Troq" doing the same when compared to "Sons of the Fathers". "The Last Resort" is a curious ep to analyze indeed.
Honestly, I feel like if you erase Harley’s background with the Joker and her process of breaking away from him, you erase what makes her distinctive as a character. That arc for liberation is character defining. The Batman: Caped Crusader take works as a character, but she doesn’t particularly work as Harley Quinn. I’d tend to brand her, somewhat more pretentiously, as ‘The Harlequin’ instead.
Another excellent analysis. I comprehend people's protective streak over Harley Quinn, but I don't respect it. The version they fell in love with may very well be the one introduced in BTAS, and while her tragedy is a part of what makes her so sympathetic, that doesn't mean artists and writers can't reimagine her. Batman has had 85 years (Harley Quinn has existed for a much shorter period) and during this time he's been adapted and re-toned again and again; the Golden Age of comic's version of Batman is different from the Adam West TV show Batman is different from the BTAS Batman is different from Nolan trilogy Batman, et cetera, et cetera. As you pointed out, one iteration does not erase the others. I wish people could have the maturity to recognize this and just approach things with an open mind and consider how each new version adds to or underscores our appreciation of this complex character rather than just gatekeep an individual they never had any right to claim as their own.
You would love Telltale Batman's Harley. She is a role reversal of the Mad Love dynamic where she is the one manipulating an insecure partner. But she is still tied with Joker.
13:36 speak for yourself! I catch bruce timm sniffing around my vhs collection with a blow torch every other thursday! he has a little ninja suit and everything
I don't think one can understate just how much of an effect Harley had on "reining in" the Joker, particularly when you consider what he was like before her character existed. Now, it's impossible to conceive of the Joker without her, and one could argue that it's because of her that he's remained relevant at all. After all, events in the real world have proven that random acts of (gory) violence and terror never resolve systemic contradictions; they only prolong and exacerbate them, and as we've found out with Luigi Mangione - perhaps the closest thing to a real-life Joker to have existed in recent history - the Joker is just one of many hapless individuals angry with the world, ultimately powerless to do anything to change it.
The thing about Harley is depending on the main target audience at all shows or specifically the time that shows shows that are more for younger audiences, mostly downplay the abusive stuff or cut it out altogether shows for more older audience can depict the more negative aspects of her relationship
I had this fun thought of a new and different take on the Joker where he’s a complete idiot to the point he’s more a threat to himself and Batman only calls him his arch-nemesis to humor him out of pity. With that idea, I thought of an idea where Harley could be Joker’s therapist only acting as a lackey as to try and convince him to go back to Arkham so he can get some help.
Maybe instead of trying to turn Harley into somthing she isn't, an antihero/superhero who's the 4th piller of D.C. comics, a role she dosn't work in or deserve given how attached to the hip her identity is to the Batman universe. DC should instead give some of that same love to charecters who would work better in that 4th piller spot ie flash or GL. The only reason I can see dc trying to glaze Harley this much is cluless corporate greed and no it has nothing to do with "diversity". I might belive that if Dc didn't own the most famous female superhero/one if not the most famous female fictional charecter of all time. Who despite being so great and Iconic is painfully underused and has stories headed by people who don't like her/don't care about her or think she needs to be "fixed".
I do like this aspect! It really shows how Joker cannot love anyone even if he tries... But I also like her being her own character, she's interesting enough to be a big bad on her own but also works as a great showcase of Joker's manipulative self!
Say what you will about "The Batman", it's honestly - if bizarrely - satisfying to see a Joker/Harley relationship that'sr relatively well -adjusted. Granted, that show was meant for younger audiences, but still...
They even had a song together that was actually kind of cute, i liked they went for the 2 Psycho Bonnie and Clyde angle instead of the abusive relationship as the 2004 cartoon was meant to a bit lighter in tone in it's later show.
As iconic and important as the BTAS and TNBA versions of the character are, I prefer the versions in the Harley Quinn animated series and Batman: Caped Crusader. Though as you mentioned the version from the eponymous animated series had the luxury of having an entire series focused on the character. I found it refreshing that the Batman: Caped Crusader version was decoupled from Joker.
Don't forget that Hugo Strange was also a geneticist that created massive Monster Men, and is more known for that than being a psychiatrist. Just because they're both have degrees in psychology that doesn't mean they're the same character.
@@prcervi it wasn’t in BTAS, but that’s how he’s portrayed in the Comics, the TV show Gotham (where he’s probably most well know) and Bruce Timm’s Strange Days short which is sort of a pseudo-pilot for Caped Crusader.
I think Harley being a subject of abuse and getting past it and becoming a new and power confident character is actually a very important story. Also saying Batman and Superman aren't defined by their trauma feeks...wrong they're super defined by it. Joker is her tragic origin. We just get to see a lot more of it than normal
Yeah Batman without murdered parents would have never understood how cruel life or Gotham can be and it wouldn't have spurred his journey to become Batman. Had superman not be raised by kind loving parents and genuinely grown up to believe in the good of the world, he would have been a very different character indeed.
I always felt Harleen forced herself to grow up too fast but her interest in the criminally insane was her cracks of childlike wonder and curiosity. Joker fed into that and Harley no longer felt the need to put on a forced persona.
Any version of Harley Quinn will always be the best, but you can always feel sorry for her especially since she's been abused by The Joker, however in the Harley Quinn Show, she became the best Anti-Hero there is and taught us to get out of a toxic relationship and in Caped Crusader, she became a bit creepier and sadistic than her previous incarnations. I'll always love Harley Quinn no matter what version she's in!🥺😎🤡🃏
You do realize since you mentioned all that about four seasons of Harley Quinn during the air season, they’re starting to make a fifth one apparently one of the fans wanted more expectation on Harley Quinn and then already it’s changing
I did a video about him a while back, along with some other Kings of BTAS (The Condiment King and The Sewer King) th-cam.com/video/12e99Yn6FN4/w-d-xo.html
One other work that might be worth looking at, even if its not an animated show, is the second season of the Telltale Batman game. The game does a LOT of wild diversions with the standard Batman canon (one of the most interesting things, honestly, is that Thomas Wayne was a touch less good of a person...), and as part of changing Joker into a clearly unstable but genuinely earnest Batman fan who is the emotional throughline of the entire piece (and some of Telltale's best work), they made Harley Quinn much more unambiguously villainous, even to the extent that she's the abusive partner in her relationship with the Joker (although never to Mad Love levels). Its a legitimately great take on the character, like pretty much all of the major characters in the game...
I watch one Harley video and suddenly a bunch more show up in my suggestions. One version of Harley I never see anyone else talk about is the Telltale adventure game series Batman Enemy Within. I love seeing good things for Harley, distancing herself from the Joker, being her own person, but Telltale Harley is a different and beautiful beast, altogether. In the adventure game, she's a mastermind, with her own crew, using that psych degree to convince Bane, Freeze, and others, to work for her. In this version, SHE is the one who creates Joker. And I even like the costume.
My only argument is saying CC Harley is not a monster. She very much is. Even a sociopath will protect their friends, if only because that friend is THEIRS. The things she does to her patient victims fall squarely in 'monstrous', in my eyes.
I was hoping this wasn't stuck member's only forever. I respect the grind of making early access content, because permanently blocking a video, especially for a character as important as harely, is just evil. Enjoy your content, would become a member if I could but I'm broke, I'll just leave a like for now
An one-shot character who ended up getting more and more spotlights as time passed... that almost sounds like alicorn Princess Luna, purple Ojamajo Onpu Segawa, Professor Paradox, and FromSoft annoyance Patches. 0:57: To imitate a certain Rarity, "a pushover, darling." 1:54: Or shouldn't. 2:50: ...Fortunate? *Fortunate???!!!* 5:21: That detail may be true, however. May. 5:48: Defenestration!!! 6:20: I think she did. It's just that she hasn't been forgiven of her transgressions properly, all while her granddaughters chose the crooked path themselves, not unlike how some good people end up birthing children and bearing forth descendants who became their sworn enemies and the things they hate in both real life and fiction. Only Gotham Girls is worth remembering, SL. As an aside, Hynden Walch nailed Harley in the 2004 shows with that proper level of chutzpah akin to good old Arleen Sorkin. No mention of Bat-Mite wearing the OG Harley Quinn look? 11:43: But she must also realize that the others around her are also needy, co-dependent, and desperate to please people somewhat because they want them, especially Harley herself, to respect them. End quote. 12:31: Nowadays, they could be named "Little Miss Perfects". Would be nice to see if Caped Crusader's Harley will actually be the true boss in case there's a relationship between her and the Joker, especially if the latter is the pushover this time when she's around. Time will tell on who's the cynic, SL. Sooner or later, time will tell. Of course Two-Face gets his side of the story next.
I’m glad she became a fan favorite almost immediately during her debut in BtAS. She’s such an awesome character and she represents my ADHD when I haven taken my medicine right before breakfast first thing in the morning. Even after the medicine’s effects have kicked in, there’s times where I’m still goofy, like her personality when she’s herself
I liked the 1992 Batman: The Animated Series Harley Quinn WASN’T a victim. She was a fool with a savior complex who willingly helped Joker. No chemicals disoriented her mind. She made her own choice out of “love”. Even when it was obvious she was wrong.
super interesting video!! Harley is one of my absolute favorite characters I love how you explored her portrayal in so many different pieces of media and how her character was changed and adapted not just to fit the narrative of whatever show/comic/movie itself but also with changes in how society at large views and understands abuse. that being said, there are some things I know I disagree with on a personal level but I'm only gonna get into one since it's kind of the crux of all the other things as well (heads up if you/anyone actually want to read, my pedantic ass is about to get super fucking obnoxious wall of text about words and nuance and what things mean and how we use language and other shit) personally, I totally disagree with you on the idea of Harley as a victim. I love how you talked about there being more to her character and how victimhood doesn't define her but, imo, referring to her as a victim kinda undermines that. by definition she was _victimized_ , yes, but not a _victim_ ; in fact, I would use a totally different word for her altogether: survivor. the difference between all those words is small and heavily nuanced but to me it's an extremely important one because the difference lies in what's being centered when those words are used to invoke identity victim, as a word, puts the abuse (and, in a way, therefore the abuser) first and the human being who experienced said abuse second. when calling Harley a victim the first thing we're made to understand is that horrible things happened to her. it may not define her entirely because it's not all she is but because the things she went through are immediately brought to the forefront all the other pieces of her identity and who she is are held up against her experiences with abuse. every part of her becomes recontextualized through the lens of that abuse. that also makes it difficult for readers to decouple their understanding of her or really any facet of her characterization from that specific context and therefore makes it incredibly easy to read a causal relationship into whatever events happen next even unintentionally✢. tbh I think all that might be where some of the complaints about changes to her character come from. if we hold the abuse she went through at the forefront and think of that first and everything else after I see how even small changes to that singular piece of her history would appear to contradict or undermine her whole entire character, like she's not even Harley Quinn anymore that's why I think we should call her a survivor instead. to me, all the above where using a totally different word comes in and why using different language is important to how we tell and understand stories (and how stories impact our understanding of the world around us). the word _survivor_ puts Harley the individual person first. it centers her actions and the things she did, not the things that were done to her by the Joker. it also recontextualizes the abuse as something that she lived through, emphasis on the word _lived_. the impact of the abuse remains and will continue to impact our reading of her as a character regardless but that person-centric language decouples the abuse from wherever her story goes in the future plus, survivor just so happens to be the word many of us in the actual real-world community prefer to use when talking about ourselves and our experiences with abuse (e.g. me: I haaaaaate being referred to as "a victim" so again, personal bias but then also the reason I spent the effort to write all of this to begin with). but yeah, that's my take anyway *TL;DR awesome video but let's call Harley a survivor, not a victim, and talk about her in terms of what she did rather than what was done to her source for why that's actually important to talk about: me, who is a nonfictional survivor of abuse and more than what was done to me* ✢I think the exact reading you give of "Harley's Holiday" is a perfect example of this: "despite her best efforts [to make a new life for herself]...she was just too damaged." because of the abuse she suffered at the hands of the Joker, Harley was so irreparably broken in such a fundamental way the could no longer function as a person, as if a piece of her very humanity was violently ripped away from her, the stolen piece leaving behind a gaping wound that could never heal. and yeah, ngl, that's pretty fucked. like, I know Harley isn't real or anything but laying it all out I at least find it hard not to see how fucked up just all of that is from start to finish (and that's not even getting into larger social critiques because lbr this is long enough already)
She WAS a complex character, modern writers simplified her writing by making her a girlboss that was a victim of Joker. To the new Harley fans who are going to read this, don't get mad it's my individual opinion. I won't rewrite your fav character or anything, it's my own personnal take abt this character... What was interesting about this character was that her condition was terrible, and got our empathy despite being a villain. She was a cautionary tale character. She was not relatable cause nobody wants a Joker/Harley relationship. Everytime he hurted her, she came back to him, which is annoying. ...Was she innocent at all ? Absolutely not. Some ppl says that she suffers from stockholmes syndrom, which is untrue. She actually suffers from histrionic syndrom, which means that she likes having all the attention focused on her, even by acting immoral. It's even more interesting. She had her free will and was enough egoistic to embrace her tentations, and then became a criminal. Lady Gaga's Harley, despite having few screen time was an interesting take. Gaga said in interview that her Harley version was the one who chosen to follow the Joker. She didn't chosen to be submissive to be submissive, she wanted to listen to her bad tentations. And actually that fits well to the OG Dini's take on Harley. In the comic version of Dini, we have details about how she became a psychiatrist... And she wasn't that brilliant or professionnal bc she corrupted her teachers to get good grades. She wanted to become a psychiatrist cause she was obsessed with psychopaths. She's a groupie, she liked the toxicity of Joker. She loved him at first sight. She says at the end of "Mad Love" something like "it felt like a kiss". That's the reason why she always come back to him, despite the fact that he doesn't like her or like her in a normal way. She wants him to recognize her talent, she is satisfied by the attention that he give to her, even if it's toxic. Her feelings were twisted but made her an interesting character, having a manichean point of view of this character doesn't work cause she's more than a victim. The point of this character is that she has her free will, and she always had it. She decided to escape from reality, she's not immature like the way modern writers protrays by making her say bad jokes and giving her a weird relationship with Ivy that act like a mom for her... No she's immature cause she refuses to face reality, she refuses to accept that Joker will never give her attention, that's tragic but more interesting than the shallow girlboss trope.
First of all, love this. Love the video. I really liked what they did with Harley in caped crusader. The focus on her psychiatry, psychoanalyzing her enemies. Heck, I got the vibe that she figured out who Batman is because of that comment about his trauma. My one gripe tho is that like there's no reason she had to wear a damn costume. She doesn't commit any of her crimes herself, she makes other people do it. So like what's the point of the jester thing? To hide her identity from her victims? Cuz like a mask would've been enough. I get that it's probably so you know it's Harley but like idk. Still really loved the interpretation
I guess it comes back to those Jungian archetypes. I found it very interesting that she self-analysed and put herself through the same analysis. I suspect that there’s an element of disassociation as well, that it was Harley Quinn doing the torture, not Harleen Quinzel. Maybe.
Yeah because remember what you said in the Trail video that she cheated her through life to get the promotion that she didn’t earned and I remember that Jon Kent(Superman’s son) even called her out on she help kill him and his mother in the Injustice universe and she should have died years as that is her’s and the Joker’s birth right and should have been a lost cause. Especially in the 2004 series she also did some questionable things that she isn’t sympathetic as she wasn’t doing her job properly and responsibly like Patch Adams and for the Caped Crusader they really can’t make up their minds as I thought she was going to be a stand in for the Joker like Anarky in Beware the Batman series as there was a concept for the Joker of that series. There is this movie called Ruby Gillman and it’s shows this point on its villain defeat that she claims she’s just pretty and misunderstood as that’s what media and society thinks.
if i'm being honest my main problems with modern harley (not caped crusader) is it feels like they could play up her former career more and have her knowledge of psychology on top of criminal past have her have a unique way of helping villains who are also victims like batman does, feels like she was dumbed down to just the clown side/persona that and her newer design with blue and pink almost cheerleader get up is ugly to me i get the idea behind changing the design to distance her from the joker but she made the design herself, its not like the joker made her dress like that keeping more jester esq elements like a harlequinn, her damn name sake, feels like itd be better imo
Personally it feels kinda odd for two famous batman villains who have the same gimic as one another and not be related in any way like if I made a batman comic where there's a a dude made out of clay and shape shifts and is not related in anyway to clayface it would feel kinda odd I know these characters aren't JUST there gimic but it still feels weird
I actually think that she genuinely reformed and became a Looney Tunes granny after Jokers death in Batman Beyond but her rebellious granddaughters probably found out who she once was and who their grandfather was. It’s like Kylo Ren trying to be like his grandfather Darth Vader
That’s why she seemed so disappointed in her granddaughters after she bailed them out
I laughed so hard at the Kylo parallel, but I see it too.
It's my head Canon that Harley originally formed the Jokerz. Like how she form a Joker themed rebellion in the first Gods Amoung Us game. However now that the Joker was dead and thus no longer manipulating her paired with her education as a psychologist allowed her mind to heal over time and she eventually left the gang inorder to finally move on.
It is important to note, however, that it was confirmed that Dee Dee are NOT related to the Joker.
@ I didn’t knew that but my headcanon is that they’re Ivy’s granddaughters
It's good that she tried to turn her Life around after Joker's death in the Beyond timeline.
Something I'd like to point out:
Psychologically, Batman has seen some REALLY messed up stuff in his life. Demons, monsters, ancient cult rituals, mass-murderers, torture chambers, slave farms, you name it, he's seen it. But the video shows a clip at about 17:45, of Joker backhanding Harley. What does Batman do? He flinches. He isn't hit, he's not in danger. But he reflexively flinches because he knows what's about to happen not just physically, but emotionally to Quinn. The man who can take Bane's fist to the face without blinking, looks away from the domestic violence. That single scene alone was an indescribably powerful teachable moment to my younger self when I saw it the first time.
That’s a damn good point!
I love the angle they went with her as a psychological villain, but not as a goofy therapist, nor the gold/black costume. Really wish she was Bruce's therapist long-term.
Development over time as the show goes on?
@daelen.cclark Huh?
@@daelen.cclark That's what I would have liked.
@@OpticalSorcererI think they mean that they think as her character develops through the show, it'll become a possibility that she'll help Bruce more often
@@shanajeangedeon9060 Possibly, but very unlikely now that Bruce knows who she is.
I know that people see her as a victim soley, but Harely herself is a abuser towards the people of Gotham by tormenting them either for giggles or if she thinks It’ll impress Joker, didn’t matter if they were innocent.
Even the orginal iteration did some messed up stuff to the robins. She has a lot of skeletons alongside Joker.
Which is why I think it would be interesting if they took a more obvious “sometimes the abused goes on to abuses others” approach because she’s not JUST a victim. She’s a brutal criminal just as Joker is and is an accomplice to Joker.
At least this way, she’s seen as a victim, but it’s reminded that she’s not innocent at all.
But that’s like the point of her character. The og version did some messed up stuff but episodes like Harley’s Holiday showed us that she’s deep down a good person
Of course she’s not entirely innocent but you still kinda feel bad for her because she’s so naive and delusional
@@sicksadworld765 You have it backward. Harley is capable of good deeds, but deep down, she is a bad and broken person. That is the truth of her story, a human being who has the tools to do better but chooses the destructive path, aka Joker because she still tortured Tim Drake in the end. What good person would do that to a teenager? There is only so much sympathy you can feel for naivety when all it does is end in the tragedy of others.
@ I think she wasn’t involved in the torture and I doubt that Joker would let her touch anything in that room even if she wanted to. But kidnapping lil bro and having no problem with Joker doing it is already bad enough
Anyway this whole sequence always felt super out of character to me😅
I wouldn’t say that she’s a bad person but neither innocent and still capable of doing bad things. In the end she’s just another victim of the Joker but being a victim doesn’t mean that you’re entirely innocent or can’t be a perpetrator and harm others
The thing is that her writing in Btas is inconsistent af, her entire personality and skills changed with each season.
In Season 4 she struggled to open a door of a shopping mall and like 2 weeks later she kidnapped Batman like it was nothing
@@sicksadworld765but then you remember she's a grown @$$ woman fully capable of breaking free hell she had several chances but instead chooses to acts like a child but not even children are that stupid or evil
@@sicksadworld765 In fact, both of them tortured Tim. Is this even shown or stated? And yes, Joker would, in fact, allow Harley to hurt Tim if it meant getting under his skin. How else would she have gotten him to follow orders, even if it was for a brief moment? Even if she didn't, she followed through on Joker's plan. Could it have been out of character? Sure, but we know Harley always goes back to Joker.
Victimhood doesn't absolve Harley of crooked behavior. She is a victim of Joker, but Tim and other people are victims of Harley, even if Joker is leading the charge she is still allowing and following through his plans. I understand you aren't saying she is 100% innocent, but torture is torture, even before Tim she terrorized Gotham next to a nutcase. Harley is one of those tragic cases where she could have given Gotham a better future but chose crime instead.
I do like when they use Harley's victimization as a plot point and a spot for character development as her own character, but it is so refreshing with the new New Batman Adventures to have her as her own character with no Joker connection. As an aside it's always great to see them use her psychologist background.
I agree, they really underplayed her qualifications in BTAS.
True but she seduced her way to a diploma in university
@@SerumLakeisn’t that a commentary on the state of healthcare for the mentally ill? I’m fairly sure that was on purpose, her being bad at her job and kind of crazy. Inmates running the asylum.
The Telltale version is one of my favorite.
She also utilizes her psychological knowledge to read and manipulate people.
@@MisterDriskulAdding that in the Telltale version, Harley Quinn is the "dominant" in the Clown duo, as the Joker is her "subordinate", as an inverted situation from the regular relationship between them in the DC multiverse.
Many people say that Harley Quinn from Caped Crusader is the scariest representation of the character, but many forget that this title belongs to herself from Justice League: Gods and Monsters.
Oh yeah, especially since the Caped Crusader version felt confused if we’re supposed to side with her or not.
The Gods and Monsters one however was straight up a serial killer who viewed everything she was doing a fun.
I don't understand the weird conflation that Harley being a Victim means her abuses have to be currently happening. She can have her previous tragedy, but also work as her own unit. While I don't think Harleen becomes Harley Quinn without the Joker; that's only an origin. She can easily move past her beginnings and become something new. Some people are just weird man.
The problem is that they have been trying to force quinn into a gurl boss character in mosern day. Harley’s really only very entertaining when she’s in her conflicting relationship with the joker because the Batman universe deals with mental illnesses and Harley is a representation of toxic love.
I’m not saying Harley should always stick with her victim role but the moment she severs her ties with the joker then that’s that-her character ends there and she shouldn’t be a villain nor a hero or vigilante. It just doesn’t make sense on a narrative role that she should still be focused as a major character once she quits her life of crime because the only thing on the narrative scale that keeps harley in the fighting role is her connection to joker.
@forastero54321 All I can say is bad writing and bad faith is just that. Bad. Art with no soul is slop. The idea can work, but it takes actual passion and effort to pull it off. Anybody can haphazardly string together words, but a writer makes stories.
Totally agree, but I will stand on the fact that once she severs her ties with the joker her time on the spotlight should end. I love harley for who she is with the joker, the drama, rooting for her to escape his grasp. She just isn’t as much of an interesting character on her own outside of the birds of prey from time to time. Her highest achievement as a character can only occur if she manages to escape the joker’s grasp because then she’d be able to overcome what not even Batman himself can do.
@@forastero54321 oh no how dare they make their second most popular female character cool and badass and a girlboss
@@forastero54321 lmao batman has 3scaaped his grasps and you must be insane to think they are gonna get rid of harley quinn
I like her portrayal in Injustice.
After she lost her Joker she grew as a person, became part of Batman's family, Bruce helped her and she helped Gotham in return.
She's still... Not very sane, but with them she can be herself and use her skills for good, she's still super smart and Batman put this for good use.
Even when she saw her mind version of the Joker, she fought him, she won.
I think that's the best "good" version of her, she became her own self. (Weird how for my knowledge they never portrayed this version of Harley anywhere)
She still murdered children though
Injustice Or Injustice 2?
@@Mr.Brothybear both? Like, Injustice just happened because Superman killed their version of Joker so... Yeah?
@@gabrielbezerra8261 ah Okay
Thanks
The main thing that bothers me about the injustice version of Harley is them glossing over the fact that she's part of the reason Superman went nuts.
She helped kidnap a pregnant Lois Lane and did surgery on her to make her nuke detonator. A nuke that she also helped plant.
It's ridiculous
I do love that in Harley’s holiday when Batman takes her back to Arkham he gives her dress to her and says I had bad day to once and I never had a problem with that Harley has a relationship with ivy or how she is in Batman caped crusader.
Yes! That is such a sweet moment at the end of Harley's Holiday and really shows what a great writer Paul Dini can be.
Even though, going by what I remember, Harley's relationship with Ivy was more or less the same as with The Joker
@@TheDarkAngel969 I don't really remember that. They had issues in the Harley Quinn Batman movie where Ivy and her new BF (who was also a pos) tried to end all human life. But in general they were fine in the show.
Ivy did tell Harley off a few times, like with them not getting a Christmas tree, but she wasn't manipulative or slapping Harley around.
14:20 I do love that Harley and Barbara’s friendship has been bubbling under the surface across all mediums for quite some time. Being on the Birds of Prey together in the comics, their amazing friendship/chemistry in “Harley Quinn” (helped by their voice actresses being sisters), here in “Caped Crusader”.
They're also best friends in the Superhero Girls reboot. This gets awkward when they realize each other's identities.
As a spin off of that, can we pls get Jason and Harley bumping into each other at some trauma survivor's group. Where Harley was just checking it out and Jason didn't really want to go.
DC and WB definitely seem conflicted about having such an abusive relationship at the forefront of such a popular character. To the extent they cut or reshot any of the scenes in the first Suicide Squad movie that illustrated the toxic and abusive side of their relationship and made it seem more amicable
I'm also conflicted on it. On the one hand it's good to have her overcome an abusive relationship, but on the other, it's not exactly ideal to have her defining character trait being that she was an abused girlfriend...
Harley was always meant to be a tragic character and a warning not to fall into toxic relationships
She was never meant to be a "4th" pillar
I still find that ridiculous
@@SerumLake It is an interesting issue. On one hand, some people who have gone through abuse could probably use a character that represents their experience. On the other hand, it is a bit overdone to define a character that way and often badly done. I feel like Harley is an exception to the poorly written side, but I can also see why they'd want to step back from that.
@@SerumLakeWhy? Frankly I can’t help but roll my eyes at this kind of attitude and sentiment. Especially given the rest of the rogues gallery.
@@SerumLake But why does she need to be ideal? I think that's why she's popular - she's familiar and humanized by her massive character flaws, especially when put against a menagerie of other female characters who feel identically 'strong' and 'admirable' and 'extremely boring'.
Although I’m not particularly a fan of the Harley Quinn animated series (especially it’s most recent season where Harley and Ivy commit mass acts of terror only for Superman to claim that she’s a hero, that particularly just rubbed me the wrong way) I can appreciate that they are reinventing the character while acknowledging her negative traits
like a lot about it imo; except harley’s character design. i honestly can’t even look at her it is just so tacky
You know what would be a neat version of Harley Quinn and Joker Dynamic? If the Joker became more dependent on Harley. Like its starts off with Joker using Harley but after a few episodes you get a scene where the Joker straight tries to save Harley over his own hide, maybe due to an act from Harley in the episode or a past one. That way Harley becomes less a victim but more of a method actor doctor. Slightly getting through to the Clown. Then it becomes a question on who is dependant on who? Harley for the Joker. OR the Joker for Harley.
Well, that would be really good..
So Telltale's Joker and Harley?
You're funny. That's not the Joker
I hate to agree but you’re right. The only time I ever saw him truly vulnerable with Harley was in that comic where he also s3xually assaulted a woman. There was one panel where he was in tears, clutching her dress and she stood there, holding a drink and not looking too interested. Neither of these actions fit his persona in my opinion.
A version I'd want to see is one where Joker and Harley pretend to have a different kind of unhealthy relationship every time they show up; with the secret being that they're actually just putting on a show for whoever they need to emotionally manipulate at the time and their real relationship is a perfectly healthy mutual friendzone because they both just want to watch Gotham burn with popcorn and soda.
Harley Quinn really is one of those characters that just exploded into pop culture, becoming one of the most popular superhero characters ever.
To me OG Harley is still hard to beat especially with Arleen Sorkin voice and characterization. She hasn't been topped even though Tara is the current most well known Harley.
I do like how Joker and Harley's relationship in The Batman was better but still not that great.
I keep forgetting Harley is in Batman the brave and the bold.
I really liked Harley in the Arkham games where bith Arleen and Tara portrayed her in along with the Injustice games
The Harley Quinn show Harley growing and becoming better is similar to her DCEU version, getting out of the Joker's shadow.
Honestly I have met people like Harley, being co dependent and never learning from bad relationships. I was there for a minute but others just want to stay there that it's sad.
I think we can credit Hot Topic, and all those Harley Quinn t-shirts they were selling, for her rise in popularity!
@SerumLake yeah same could be said for Invader Zim as well with Gir.
Honestly George Lucas was smart to keep the merchandising rights for Star Wars after a New Hope came out. I know Marvel is glad they got the merchandising rights back for Spidey from Sony.
9:45 The 2019 Superhero Girls is not a soft reboot. It's a complete break from the story, style and characterizations of the web series. It was created by Lauren Faust-- likely in an attempt by WB to recreate the age, gender and culture spanning success of the G4 My Little Pony--derived from her earlier SBFF shorts for DC Nation, even bringing back the lead voice actresses to reprise their roles in the reboot.
I wouldn't say The Batman's Joker doesn't abuse his Harley at all. Her starring episode carries the clear implication that he's only going to be all smiles with her as long as she goes along with what he wants. There's that one telling moment where Harley tries giving Joker orders, so he stops smiling, gets up in her face and goes "You? Ordering me around? Don’t go too far. I’ve only indulged you because it AMUSED me!", leaving her visibly shaken.
At the end of the episode, he also ditches her at the first convenience, leaving her to die in a fire while he makes his escape.
The show doesn't develop their relationship much after that, but it seems pretty clear that he barely rates her above an amusing novelty that can be put down or discarded the moment she gets inconvenient.
ironically TB's Harley is what could have happened to BTAS' if insanely good casting/writing didn't save her.
I really like the recent trend of having Harley and Barbara as friends. Super Hero Girls, Harley Quinn and Caped Crusader all approached that in very different ways, and I've enjoyed all of them.
Harley Quinn has always been defined by her relationship with the Joker since it was such a massive part of her roots. But I like how throughout the years, DC and the many people who've written adaptations of her character have tried making her more than just a victim, or not even a victim at all. The Harley Quinn show displays her flaws and faults openly, gives her some more personality, and makes her more than just Joker's victim. Meanwhile, Caped Crusader reinventes her in a great way, taking away her link to the Joker but still giving her more depth as a result.
The only problem I feel is that Joker has to be a part of it at least in the origin. Harley Quinn is more than capable of standing on her own without the joker. But Harley Quinn never exists unless Joker is involved. The character can stand on it's own but the origin is too tightly connected to Joker if that makes any sense.
@@nightmarearcade2663 I don't think it has to be though if they don't want it to be. They seem to want to move it from a result of the Joker to more a result of Trauma. They're playing around with what her core story is because some characters don't need that set in stone like Batman or Superman
But at the same time can we really say she isn't like Batman and superman in this regard? She has what's arguably the most recognizable villain origin story of all time and I feel like changing it to the point that it's unrecognizable just doesn't work with her. Like my biggest issue with this version of Harley is that she's only Harley Quinn in name only. She's written well don't get me wrong but can you really say this is Harley Quinn? She acts and behaves nothing like her and I'm all for new interpretations but there's a difference between a new interpretation and just making a new character. And this version of Harley is basically an entirely different character.
@@nightmarearcade2663 Characters have shifted in the past whether it's because a writer got curious and hit the jackpot or because times changed. Batman now and silver age are very different while keeping some core aspects. Many of the heroes and villians will have their stories recontexualized to facilitate a new story. Caped Harley is one that focuses on her psychologist part instead of her as a victim.
Which in turn brings up another issue with her which is that she's basically just a gender bent Dr. Hugo strange. Like outside of her motive that is basically what she is in this show. When you only focus on the psychologist aspect of her then she just becomes Strange resulting in a lot of people wondering why they didn't just use him instead.
Although the original BTAS Harley and the injustice version of Harley will always be my favorites, I really appreciate what Crusader’s version of Harley going for.
It almost gives me “Absolute Batman” vibes. Where you take away an aspect of the character.’s background, in this case, her relationship with the joker, and see what you have left with this new adaptation of the character.
Honestly I’m really looking forward to see where Caped Crusader goes with their Harley Quinn, having her be a foil for Batman will be interesting
Honestly i don’t mind when harley has an origin without joker’s involvement kinda like what they did with the caped Crusader show. I also don’t mind when she’s a solo villain, like how they did her in the gotham adventures comics. As for my favorite version of her i’d say the one from the Batman cartoon.
Dr. Chase Meridian is kinda like a mirror version of Harley Quinn: Both are female psychologists involved with law enforcement and criminals but whereas Harley had a fascination with Criminally Insane Characters who flashily commit their crimes Chase was intrigued by Vigilantes and their need to symbolically save the day. Both are infatuated with their top patients but whereas Harley was dependent to the point of abuse and sought comfort from Ivy Chase understood Batman's importance thus aided to keep his identity a secret whilst helping Bruce with balancing his multiple identities. I could easily see these 2 as college roomates or understudies of Dr. Leland (another prominent female psychiatrist). Still could have been portrayed better though.
The recent game Batman Arkham Shadow had a very interesting take on Harley Quinn. Even though it is set during her pre-supervillain days when she's just a well-meaning prison psychiatrist, you can see a lot of character traits that will emerge later. She cares a lot about the prisoners and tries to see the best in them (which Joker will eventually exploit), she's highly frustrated at the system for stymieing her attempts to reform them, she feels her boss and coworkers don't take her seriously, and she has a very violent temper when pressed. It shows in her good qualities that will later be twisted into villainy, which is a nice counterpoint to other versions that show her struggling with reform later on.
The game Gotham Knights also had a slightly different take on Harley, where she's broken up with the Joker but remained villainous, leaning on her psychologist background to become a manipulative TV therapist/cult leader, encouraging people to "become their best selves" through petty crime.
13:38 But Bruce Tim just came round and burned all my comics and DVDs that had Harley Quinn in them 5 minutes ago.
If it hasn't been mentioned already, there's a great moment of Harley's growth in Injustice 2 when she's under the effects of Scarecrow's Fear Gas. It was a good moment to show that though Harley was still traumatized by the Joker, she was trying her best to heal. As Extra Credits put it, "Harley Quinn is not okay. And that, is okay."
While I dont like how DC has made Harley an anti-hero in the same universes where she commited some serious terrorist attacks on anything from the elderly to underage, I can appriciate this version for how she's a villain without any excuse.
You cant blame a bad relationship here, she's 100% the villain and needs to go down.
The Problem I have with Batman: Caped Crusader's depiction of Harley Quinn is simply that she should not be named Harley Quinn. The Name Harley Quinn was given to her by the Joker as a kind of pet name when he began to manipulate her. In Caped Crusader, she never met this Universe's version of the Joker, so it would make more sense for her to call herself Harlaquinn, after the figure of medieval theatre. They are two very different characters with two very different backgrounds and stories. This simple name change would have been a perfect way to separate the woman who went from a victim to finding herself and gaining her independence, and the monster with a conscience that we find in Caped Crusader.
You know they never call her Harley Quinn (or even Harley) in the show. It's only in the marketing material.
Edit: It's the same with Harvey (who is never called Two-Face), Basil (who is ever called Clayface) and Natalia (who is never called Nocturna).
All true, except for the credits, where their supervillain names are listed.
I don't agree that changing or covering up Harley's abused/abusive past is a detriment to the character.
In fact, that part of her, I just now realized, is the very core of her character. It is her origin. It is her "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility". It's the murdered parents of Bruce Wayne.
Seeing how she evolves past the Joker into a healthy individual, or double down with the Joker, or continues her self-destructive tendencies without the Joker, THAT is what makes her character interesting.
I agree that the new Caped Crusader is an intriguing character... But just not as Harley Quinn.
Wasn't Batman an entirely different character before they gave him an origin story?
Harley Quinn as an abusive victim is a plot point I feel is important. Not cause her being a victim is important to her character. But because people hurt her and then she gets up with a smile on her face and continues to kick ass. Lots of dv survivors(Including myself) love seeing her current self as someone who got out and rebuilt her life surrounded by people who accept her warts and all. Modern day Harley Quinn isn't defined by her victimhood. She's defined as a survivor who never stops smiling and builds a life she loves post dv. I wish more writers would focus on that aspect of her.
Ngl, Caped Crusader might have one of my favorite versions of Harley.
I dunno. Harley as victim is a powerful and resonant story. We all know that person who, time and again, goes back to an abusive ex or has a string of them. We feel sorry for them, yes, but there comes a point where it becomes that person's fault that they continue with the pattern
Exactly. Especially the fact that she commits mass murder with very little pity on multiple occasions..
@NYCTOSEE bingo. The statuses of villain and victim are not mutually exclusive
My main problem with more modern version of Harley is they push her too far into being a chaotic Deadpool like hero.
Respectfully disagree about how key the relationship with the Joker is. The original version was drawn into a life of crime by getting into a relationship with the Joker and even after leaving him was stuck as a C-list villain, unable to go straight. That's like Batman having his parents murdered in front of him when he was a kid, or Wonder Woman being an emissary from a land of Amazons or Superman being the last survivor of a doomed planet. It's a key part of the character concept, an obvious hook for characterization and something that always goes reverted to. Without it, there's just not much left that's distinctive about the character. And honestly, I think C-list screw up supervillain who got seduced into a life of crime and would like to go straight but can't is a pretty interesting concept.
Don't get me wrong - I like the Harlequin of "Caped Crusader" and think it's an interesting supervillain concept. Kind of a dark mirror of Batman himself. But that version is a conscious, willful villain whose psychiatric skills are her core abilities - a very different character aside from the name.
I think that something crucial is lost without the harley/joker dynamic. With Harley as this burlesque pratfalling character, Joker is forced into the (no pun intended) straight man role and you can sense the frustration he has towards Harley because of it. As the audience we can see its funny but even with his appreciation for comedy can the joker accept being the butt of the joke?
You can argue that Harley doesn't need the Joker but I'd say that the opposite is true and the Joker needs Harley: a foil that can get under his skin in a way that no one else ever could.
Personally I am not a huge fan of the Harley quinn cartoon. In my opinion it is just another obnoxious "adult" cartoon that throws f-bombs around like sweets and features an unlikeable cast of characters (except Kite man. He's ok).
I am so tired of Quinn being put on a high pedestal. I recognise that she is popular and I appreciate DC wanting to push her in new directions but making her on the level of the bloody Trinity is just ridiculous.
She is a villain not a bloody joke spouting anti hero like Deadpool. She may be a victim but she is still a villain and the dcau acknowledged this fact so the fact that dc are pushing her so hard as a "hero " is just eye rolling.
Her popularity also came at thr expense of Ivy. Ivy was a great villain but now she just exist to be the love interest of Quinn.
To be fair, in season 1 of the Harley Quinn animated series Poison Ivy is in a relationship with Kite Man, not Harley, and in season 4, she has her own story, where she's running The Legion of Doom, so she isn't just Harley's love interest. Also, I think there's an episode in season 2 or 3 where Catwoman points out to Poison Ivy that she's spending too much time with Harley and not doing any plant related crimes for herself.
Agreed! Ivy has always canonically been a plant-loving humanity hating extremist agroterrorist and now it feels completely disregarded in favor of new 52 and that ONE girl power episode of BTAS. Harley could’ve had any other female love interest but Ivy is honestly one of the worst since she’s literally a maneater and her whole thing is she relies on being a seductress as her power. Harley is canonically a jealous person. Harley is also canonically a horrible person. She’s a victim, but still a VILLAIN. Two Face and Mr. Freeze have more tragic moments & backstories than her. I’m of the belief that Harley shouldn’t be turned into a ‘hero’. She’s not mentally ill, same as the Joker, she’s basically the DC equivalent as the women who write letters to Ted Bundy. Bleaching her skin in New 52 removed a key aspect of her character/character design which is her insane devotion to the Joker. Not to mention Kaley Quoco is a horrible voice for Harley Quinn. I don’t know what the obsession is with getting people who AREN’T from New York to play a character with a New York accent, but it sounds horrible every time. Even Tara Strong had moments where it was noticeable. Harley Quinn in the cartoon sounds like a damn cali girl half the time, and the show has the same writing style as Velma. A bunch of pop culture references despite the fact that this is a DC show?? It feels like one of those weird Mindy Kaling cartoons that just wants to cater to millennials. Also, the designs are ugly ASF. The Joker looks horrible. Why is Killer Croc talking about BEYONCÉ IN A DC SHOW?? It’s a drastic departure from the dark, serious tone of other adult DC movies like Teen Titans. It just feels like one of those YA cartoons that wanna be family guy.
I do feel that there is a level of violent crime after which "I'm emotionally abused by a sociopath" stops being an excuse, and most versions of Harley have hit that.
@@tayojones9460 have you even watched it?
@sicksadworld765 I have watched clips out of boredom but they were more then enough to convince not to watch the whole series.
I honestly like her og version the best but I have to that I like the version from the HQ series quite alot
She’s such a overall well written character and they found the perfect balance between her being a brutal badass and a vulnerable, naive troubled woman
This show deserves it’s own video btw
Never a bad character analysis from you. As well as it's always nice seeing a popular character and their multiple iterations and seeing where they have been to what else to have become.
She dosn't need to be a victim but she still need to be relatable.
I mean whats even her deal agaist rich people? If she was ivy that would make sence since 90% of the eviroment destruction is caused by rich people or people in the politics that give it a pass (just look at harvey in the animated series)
Or hell if they wanted to make her pure evil like the joker make her everyone her victim not just rich people
I actually love this take of Harley, and a lot of people in the fan spaces I’m in adore her and the new direction and her possibilities too. I’m pretty sure 90% of the reason everyone thinks she’s so hаtеd universally is because mіsоgуnіstіс DC fаnbоys have taken over the internet to the point where their voices are the loudest and go so unchallenged no one bothers to address them anymore. But the rest of the fandom isn’t represented by them, and we can’t let them bullу us into silence every time DC dares do something different. Thanks for adding your voice to the rest of us.
The one part that was in the original comic version of Mad love is Harley sleeping through college. The writers have since admitted they’re not a fan of it and suggested hardly did get her degree legitimately at least two works. I know of find ways to add that part the first is the birds of prey movie where it’s stated that Harley has a type which helps add to the reason joker broker the second is the Harlene comic from DC black label where Harley only slept with a professor. She was generally in love with, but it was later used as a scandal to mock her that she got her achievements through sex, but they do point out, and unless she was sleeping with the entire faculty, she would have to earn it legitimately.
I always Harley as a victim, but who became a bad person as well. Manipulated by Joker or not, she made a lot of those bad decisions herself. Ruinging her career, going into the vat, being with Joker for years assuming he loved her. I like when she takes accountability while also having to accept the "love" she had for Joker was one sided and blinded her to commit horrible acts, but he wasn't truly controlling her.
DC: We want to make Harley Quinn a tentpole character for our company!
Everyone Else: Um, isn’t she a bit too inappropriate for that position, especially considering her incredibly abusive relationship with The Joker?
DC: That is…a fair point, but don’t worry; we’ve already taken that into consideration and we have a few ideas for how we will tackle that particular issue.
Everyone Else: Such as?
DC: Well for starters, we’re going to have her break up with Joker cold turkey!
Everyone Else: Okay, that’s good, but does that mean that she’s also getting a different name and costume too?
DC: (tilts its head and raises its eyebrow) Why would we do that?
Everyone Else: Well, if she’s going cold turkey, then it would make sense for her to no longer use the name that her abuser gave her or to have a clown motif, right?
DC: Fair point?
Everyone Else: You COULD still call her Harley though, since it has been used as a shortened version of her actual name, but you’d still have to give her a new superhero name though.
DC: Yeah…about that!
Everyone else: You’re not going to give her a new name, aren’t you?
DC: NOPE!
Everyone Else: Okay? Are you at least going to give her a new costume?
DC: Oh yeah, we’ve got these GREAT new designs for her, here, have a look!
Everyone Else: (Sees Harley’s New 52/Rebirth designs) Why do her designs range from looking like a hooker to looking like a roller derby girl to just looking like she’s in her underwear?
DC: (Crap, they’re onto us, gotta think of something quick!) Uh, we wanted to show off her free spirited nature?
Everyone Else: Uh huh! Sure ya did! Hey wait, why is she covered in body paint? Isn’t only her face supposed to look like a clown?
DC: Oh, that’s not make up! You see, we changed her origin so that now, she was dropped into the same vat of chemicals that created The Joker. As such, she now has the same bleached white skin as he does!
Everyone Else: WHAT? You just said that you were going to cut her off from Joker, now you’re just going to make her basically a lady version of him?
DC: YEP! Isn’t that a GREAT idea???
Everyone Else: NO!!! That’s a terrible idea! Ugh, well, are you at least going to let her become a member of The Bat-Family or The Outsiders or something like that?
DC: Well…sort of! We’re actually planning on having her be either a member of The Suicide Squad or the leader of The Birds of Prey!
Everyone Else: Well, okay, having her on the Squad actually makes a lot of sense and-WAIT, WHAT WAS THAT LAST ONE!??? The Birds of Prey? Isn’t that Barbara Gordon’s team? Wait, what do you mean by her being the LEADER?
DC: I’m glad you asked! You see, we’re going to be releasing a movie about The Birds of Prey that is ACTUALLY a Harley movie with them as glorified guest stars.
Everyone Else: That sounds…kinda scummy and disrespectful to Barbara Gordon fans. That’s like not having Captain America be the leader of The Avengers!
DC: Oh, and we’re also going to allow her to start breaking the 4th Wall and acting really silly and stupid and make crass lewd jokes and stuff.
Everyone Else: So; you’re basically making her an unnecessary Deadpool knockoff that’ll annoy everyone?
DC: …MAYBE? Actually, we’re also looking for a new artist for one of her books, tell us; how good can you draw her naked in a bathtub about to unalive herself with a toaster?
EVERYONE ELSE:😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳
(YEAH. That last part was an ACTUAL THING that DC did!)
yeah, they couldn't really handle the depth the character required in the slightest.
DC knows exactly who their readership is, unfortunately. And they'll keep peddling to that lowest common denominator for as long as it keeps making them money.
Yup. And this is the crux of the problem with the idea of turning Harley into an "independent" character. The thing people loved about classic Harley is she isn't independent. She's very much dependent. After a while, audience's wanted either someone to help her or for Harley to help herself. But, more damning that, DC themselves realize that, if they do that, the character Harley Quin would be no more. She would be changed into someone else. Someone the audience might not like. To compound that problem, in most of the times Harley becomes free, she either becomes boring, losing all motivation other than "I GOOD GIRL NOW!" or she becomes nothing but blatant Rule 34 bait.
Everyone says they want Harley to be free. It's not that simple. Harley's draw is the tragedy of her situation and the flamboyance she exudes. And, yes, often eye candy as well. And those are all good things for a character to go through in a storytelling medium. It makes people sympathize with her. Like her. Wish to see more of her. It's not that she CAN'T be free, but without an intelligent, understanding writer who has a solid plan for her after her chains are broken, Harley becomes irrelevant if she's free.
People want Harley to be freed. Not to be free. They want to see her be saved. Not to have that conflict removed.
I think making her also get dunked in the chemicals actually works with the new direction. It shifts the starting point of her arc much closer to the Joker, so that she has more that she needs to fight against in order to break off from him. Particularly the version where she "willingly" (emotional manipulation makes things complicated) jumps into the vat, its a physical representation of how far she's fallen, and how much that relationship has damaged her.
The whole point is that she's not a lady version of the Joker, she wanted to be, but he'd never let her, and that is what eventually manages to get it through to her that she needs literally anything else.
What I don't get is why they're so damned scared of making an abused woman a huge character? Sure she leaves the Joker, that was a step in the right direction. But that shouldn't magically erase their history.
DC needs to sit down and understand that 1. They have enough adult fans for this to not be an issue 2. Abuse isn't some slur or scary word to sweep under the rug.
They wrote the character like this and they should stick to it. Show that it's something for her to overcome and fight, not to just forget and laugh about or ignore.
All they're doing is making it seem like they find being an abuse victim as something shameful and dirty, or like their writers are afraid to take their own characters seriously
I remember the EXACT moment I started despising her in Injustice when she VERY willingly helped Joker nuke Metropolis sat back with a smile on her face as the city vaporized but after Superman killed Joker she's is SUDDENLY remorseful and acts like she never had a choice
Thats when I realized how modern harley is the personification of "victim mentality" nothing is ever her direct fault it's always Joker's or society that is in the wrong but never herself despite the bad to downright horrific actions she does its never her fault or so she can the writers seem to believe
You know what I think would be interesting in a Joker and Harley duo? They genuinely love each other, Joker because she actually understands him and gets his jokes, and Harley because... Well she is into batshit insane and loves the Joker's schemes, no matter how deadly.
This version if the Joker is Smart, athletic, calculated, and all the best types of Joker Insane. He knows damn well what he's doing, but in the heat of the moment he goes stir crazy trying all sorts of things to add onto the plan.
Harley adores and supports Joker through it all, giving tips and advice when Joker hits a roadblock in his ideas. And she's also the one to keep Joker from getting totally unhinged in the heat of the moment because "A good joke isnt funny if it gets too out of hand." Or something like that.
They truly complement each other in different ways, an inseparable duo.
I feel like the Isekai series doesn't get enough appreciation. It explores an idea that we don't really see enough of in these villains: Are they villains because they're inherently bad, or are they villains because they don't "fit" with current society? I honestly feel like some of the characters there would be an interesting topic of an essay in the future.
I love how the in the 2020 show Harleen was a somewhat separate character from Harley, like her own Jimity Cricket. And its something i hope sticks around. Also maybe the writers can give her pet Hyenas some more spotlight.
I enjoyed the "new" takes in Caped Crusader, even though some, as the quotes indicate, weren't entirely new. Harley, though, was a very nice changeup.
My issue with every Harley since New 52 is that writing assumes Harley being a victim was some kind of oversight or mistake, instead a deliberate choice. Modern Harley’s writers always have this snide perspective towards the OG as lesser because she remains loyal to Joker ‘till the end. Yet the original Harley was never a self insert role model the way the new ones try to be, because it was understood she was a bad guy. New Harley is written under the impression that she’s meant to be championed as independent while still being a criminal, but she’s not. Harley would be independent if she reformed and gave up the life Joker dragged her into. Just shipping her with Ivy instead is trading one abuser for a slightly nicer one, but fans aren’t ready for the conversation. The new version seen in Caped Crusader is the first instance of someone making it work because they just removed Joker from her backstory completely, she’s a rebel on her own terms.
I’ve been making that latter point about Ivy x Harley so much and I’m happy to see someone else get it!
What’s the point of removing Harley Quin from someone who’s manipulative and abusive, to now shipping Harely with a character who’s specifically know to be manipulative and abusive as their whole super power? What, because she specifcally does it to men? Ivy outright SA’s people to mind control them, yet DC kinda just shrugs that part of Ivy under the rug and calls her a hero. It ruins the whole lesson of letting go of abusive toxic people, if your gonna place Harely with ANOTHER abusive character, doesn’t matter if Harely and Ivy are friends or if DC wants to make Ivy into a hero, Ivy still was a very toxic person to say the least and would make a terrible spouse if you think about it. That’s like vowing to never date your abusive ex, and instead you start dating Bill Cosby.
"Just so I am completely clear, I do not love in any form and your as important to me as a shit under my boot" -the joker
I have always said Harley doesn't have to be a victim in order to be Harley Quinn. And I'm happy to see more of this.
Well you would be right if you also agree that Batman would still exist if Bruce's parents were not killed and he grew up normally
@@gscsilvavaladares7065... You do know that there are variances where his parents aren't dead and he still wants to do something good for the city ?
@@gscsilvavaladares7065 No-no but you see Clark Kent would obviously still be a good man and superman if he was raised by Lex Luthor's dad and not from a doomed planet...
WonderWoman would totally still be a badass highly effective warrior if she was a temp from North Carolina with no combat training...
John Constantine would totally still be a traumatized grumpy addict in and out from mental institutions if he hadn't summoned a demon in Newcastle...
(Actually seeing John checking himself into Arkham for actual help only to check out the day after would be kinda funny).
Point being all people have pivotal events or even their entire lives lives to blame or thank for the people they become. Removing those events would change the people they are. Sure some people may be closer than others, but in cases like these changing those events would fundamentally change them as people.
Harley has no "reason" to become insane or lash out in such an absurd way unless she meets and is abused by the Joker. She may have eventually gotten severe issues and mental health illness from working as a psychiatrist in Gotham, she may not even have survived for long. But she wouldn't be Harley Quinn has she not bee through all that.
Removing what happened to her also sends the message that it's something bad that you should hide and be ashamed of and that it lowers your ability to later become successful or happy. Or that the writers are uncomfortable with writing it.
Abuse whether you like it or not is something that changed a person, sometimes fundamentally. It shouldn't be glorified, but it also shouldn't be hidden away. Removing it and pretending that the victim would have turned out the same is just a lie and only does a disservice to real abuse victims.
I don't see it. Without her original backstory she loses her connection to the Joker, She obviously loses her connection to Batman because he'd never tolerate a straight up villain, same goes for Catwoman. Harley would just be a typical B-Lister thug awaiting the Hammers of Justice like Mad Hatter, Zsasz, Or Calender Man. A total downgrade.
A note about 2019's DC Superhero girls version of Harley (I'm gonna get flamed in the comments for even talking about the show lol): That versión of Harley is actually more defined by her interaction with Barbara Gordon/Batgirl. A big part of her background there is that Harleen Quinzel and Barbara Gordon were friends back in Gotham and still are friends to each other after moving to Metrópolis, but neither of them knows of the other's secret costumed persona despite suspecting something. Barbara doesn't know Harleen is Harley Quinn and Harley doesn't know Babs is Batgirl. Pretty neat dynamic IMO
That show was so much fun!
I also love how they parallel each other by having the same flaw, their obsessive idolization of a more prominent figure. And Harley becoming a villain on her own but inspired by the Joker, despite not meeting him until much later, felt natural rather than being ridiculous which is absolutely does just writing it out like that 😅
Personally I would like more things like the Harley from The Batman, where her and joker have an actually good relationship! It adds some nice spice to it, and just personally love a pair of kooky lovebirds
I'm also a fan of healthy Joker and Harley! I adore their friendship in The Lego Batman Movie.
Haven't watched caped crusaders but I do like that Harley Quinn. The only thing is I don't like the colors of her outfit. Could have just kept the classic red/black or any other then that gold/green.
Love the thought of magenta and teal but a) would match her hair in newer version (kind of) b) to bright for a calm character
I do want to suggest some episodes to talk about.
Justice Legal Unlimited: Patriot Act (My favorite JL and JLU episode of all time)
Static Shock: Jimmy (This one you might have to be careful when you upload it)
Batman Beyond: The Last Resort
Gotta love "Patriot Act", although Eiling does have a point when the JLU succumb to moral entropy some offscreen years later on. No "ifs", it always leads to an inevitable "when", as seen with how they're history and replaced by the Legion of Super-Heroes during the 30th century.
I think Gargoyles' "Deadly Force" did gun messaging better (they even deconstruct the "kid-friendliness" of laser guns) and even forwards the plot while "Jimmy" is quite skippable in the long run. Same with Teen Titans' "Troq" doing the same when compared to "Sons of the Fathers".
"The Last Resort" is a curious ep to analyze indeed.
Honestly, I feel like if you erase Harley’s background with the Joker and her process of breaking away from him, you erase what makes her distinctive as a character. That arc for liberation is character defining.
The Batman: Caped Crusader take works as a character, but she doesn’t particularly work as Harley Quinn. I’d tend to brand her, somewhat more pretentiously, as ‘The Harlequin’ instead.
The Batman 2004 is like the one time I’ve gotten way Harley was into Joker
Another excellent analysis. I comprehend people's protective streak over Harley Quinn, but I don't respect it. The version they fell in love with may very well be the one introduced in BTAS, and while her tragedy is a part of what makes her so sympathetic, that doesn't mean artists and writers can't reimagine her. Batman has had 85 years (Harley Quinn has existed for a much shorter period) and during this time he's been adapted and re-toned again and again; the Golden Age of comic's version of Batman is different from the Adam West TV show Batman is different from the BTAS Batman is different from Nolan trilogy Batman, et cetera, et cetera.
As you pointed out, one iteration does not erase the others. I wish people could have the maturity to recognize this and just approach things with an open mind and consider how each new version adds to or underscores our appreciation of this complex character rather than just gatekeep an individual they never had any right to claim as their own.
You would love Telltale Batman's Harley. She is a role reversal of the Mad Love dynamic where she is the one manipulating an insecure partner. But she is still tied with Joker.
Honestly I hate Harley just getting off Scott free like bro SHE STILL UNALIVED PEOPLE (I said unalived because TH-cam censorship)
You can say “killed”, it’s fine, so long as you’re not making some sort of threat. Context is key.
@@SerumLakefor some reason when I use it or a swear in all caps my comment gets deleted
One of the compelling things about Harley is that we all know somebody like her, someone we just want to see do better
I Talked To Bruce Timm. He said that the Joker and Harley Quinn of this continuity are not going to meet next season.
Cool!
I completely forgot she in the batman cartoon
I like how they've started having her develop a friendship with Barbara. I think it's definitely an aspect I think could definitely use more focus.
13:36 speak for yourself! I catch bruce timm sniffing around my vhs collection with a blow torch every other thursday! he has a little ninja suit and everything
I don't think one can understate just how much of an effect Harley had on "reining in" the Joker, particularly when you consider what he was like before her character existed.
Now, it's impossible to conceive of the Joker without her, and one could argue that it's because of her that he's remained relevant at all. After all, events in the real world have proven that random acts of (gory) violence and terror never resolve systemic contradictions; they only prolong and exacerbate them, and as we've found out with Luigi Mangione - perhaps the closest thing to a real-life Joker to have existed in recent history - the Joker is just one of many hapless individuals angry with the world, ultimately powerless to do anything to change it.
The thing about Harley is depending on the main target audience at all shows or specifically the time that shows shows that are more for younger audiences, mostly downplay the abusive stuff or cut it out altogether shows for more older audience can depict the more negative aspects of her relationship
The Joker broke Harley's bones long before he broke her heart.
I had this fun thought of a new and different take on the Joker where he’s a complete idiot to the point he’s more a threat to himself and Batman only calls him his arch-nemesis to humor him out of pity.
With that idea, I thought of an idea where Harley could be Joker’s therapist only acting as a lackey as to try and convince him to go back to Arkham so he can get some help.
dangerous dumb Joker sounds genuinely entertaining, like a modern twist of the safer Joker from the 70s.
the Hadley Quinn show is my favourite take on the character. I love your analysis videos, you are incredibly underrated!
Maybe instead of trying to turn Harley into somthing she isn't, an antihero/superhero who's the 4th piller of D.C. comics, a role she dosn't work in or deserve given how attached to the hip her identity is to the Batman universe.
DC should instead give some of that same love to charecters who would work better in that 4th piller spot ie flash or GL.
The only reason I can see dc trying to glaze Harley this much is cluless corporate greed and no it has nothing to do with "diversity".
I might belive that if Dc didn't own the most famous female superhero/one if not the most famous female fictional charecter of all time.
Who despite being so great and Iconic is painfully underused and has stories headed by people who don't like her/don't care about her or think she needs to be "fixed".
I do like this aspect! It really shows how Joker cannot love anyone even if he tries...
But I also like her being her own character, she's interesting enough to be a big bad on her own but also works as a great showcase of Joker's manipulative self!
Say what you will about "The Batman", it's honestly - if bizarrely - satisfying to see a Joker/Harley relationship that'sr relatively well -adjusted.
Granted, that show was meant for younger audiences, but still...
They even had a song together that was actually kind of cute, i liked they went for the 2 Psycho Bonnie and Clyde angle instead of the abusive relationship as the 2004 cartoon was meant to a bit lighter in tone in it's later show.
As iconic and important as the BTAS and TNBA versions of the character are, I prefer the versions in the Harley Quinn animated series and Batman: Caped Crusader. Though as you mentioned the version from the eponymous animated series had the luxury of having an entire series focused on the character. I found it refreshing that the Batman: Caped Crusader version was decoupled from Joker.
I felt similarly about Caped Crusader's Harley. She was very different, but still quite recognisably Harley Quinn.
Heck no that Harley sucks they just made Hugo strange
Don't forget that Hugo Strange was also a geneticist that created massive Monster Men, and is more known for that than being a psychiatrist. Just because they're both have degrees in psychology that doesn't mean they're the same character.
@@SerumLake what episode was the monster men thing?
@@prcervi it wasn’t in BTAS, but that’s how he’s portrayed in the Comics, the TV show Gotham (where he’s probably most well know) and Bruce Timm’s Strange Days short which is sort of a pseudo-pilot for Caped Crusader.
I think Harley being a subject of abuse and getting past it and becoming a new and power confident character is actually a very important story.
Also saying Batman and Superman aren't defined by their trauma feeks...wrong they're super defined by it. Joker is her tragic origin. We just get to see a lot more of it than normal
Yeah Batman without murdered parents would have never understood how cruel life or Gotham can be and it wouldn't have spurred his journey to become Batman.
Had superman not be raised by kind loving parents and genuinely grown up to believe in the good of the world, he would have been a very different character indeed.
12:00 Well....except for Mr Freeze and Nora.
People try to help her, but she turn them away
12:05 THIS i hate that people ignore how obvious it is that the creators care for these characters even if their making a joke out of them
I always felt Harleen forced herself to grow up too fast but her interest in the criminally insane was her cracks of childlike wonder and curiosity. Joker fed into that and Harley no longer felt the need to put on a forced persona.
Any version of Harley Quinn will always be the best, but you can always feel sorry for her especially since she's been abused by The Joker, however in the Harley Quinn Show, she became the best Anti-Hero there is and taught us to get out of a toxic relationship and in Caped Crusader, she became a bit creepier and sadistic than her previous incarnations. I'll always love Harley Quinn no matter what version she's in!🥺😎🤡🃏
You do realize since you mentioned all that about four seasons of Harley Quinn during the air season, they’re starting to make a fifth one apparently one of the fans wanted more expectation on Harley Quinn and then already it’s changing
With Harly DC has weaponized the "I can Fix Her!" movement.
You think for your next villain analysis you could do The Clock King from Batman the animated series?
I did a video about him a while back, along with some other Kings of BTAS (The Condiment King and The Sewer King) th-cam.com/video/12e99Yn6FN4/w-d-xo.html
DCAU Harley will always be the best one, I also do really love the Harley Quinn show and the DC Superhero Girls web series before the 2019 rebrand
One other work that might be worth looking at, even if its not an animated show, is the second season of the Telltale Batman game. The game does a LOT of wild diversions with the standard Batman canon (one of the most interesting things, honestly, is that Thomas Wayne was a touch less good of a person...), and as part of changing Joker into a clearly unstable but genuinely earnest Batman fan who is the emotional throughline of the entire piece (and some of Telltale's best work), they made Harley Quinn much more unambiguously villainous, even to the extent that she's the abusive partner in her relationship with the Joker (although never to Mad Love levels).
Its a legitimately great take on the character, like pretty much all of the major characters in the game...
I watch one Harley video and suddenly a bunch more show up in my suggestions. One version of Harley I never see anyone else talk about is the Telltale adventure game series Batman Enemy Within. I love seeing good things for Harley, distancing herself from the Joker, being her own person, but Telltale Harley is a different and beautiful beast, altogether. In the adventure game, she's a mastermind, with her own crew, using that psych degree to convince Bane, Freeze, and others, to work for her. In this version, SHE is the one who creates Joker. And I even like the costume.
My only argument is saying CC Harley is not a monster. She very much is. Even a sociopath will protect their friends, if only because that friend is THEIRS. The things she does to her patient victims fall squarely in 'monstrous', in my eyes.
i do like the 2004 batman cartoon version of the harley and joker relationship is less toxic in my Opinion to be honest
I was hoping this wasn't stuck member's only forever. I respect the grind of making early access content, because permanently blocking a video, especially for a character as important as harely, is just evil. Enjoy your content, would become a member if I could but I'm broke, I'll just leave a like for now
Yeah, don’t worry, none of my essays will be Members Only forever. Giving them up to a week of early access is just a perk to encourage membership.
An one-shot character who ended up getting more and more spotlights as time passed... that almost sounds like alicorn Princess Luna, purple Ojamajo Onpu Segawa, Professor Paradox, and FromSoft annoyance Patches.
0:57: To imitate a certain Rarity, "a pushover, darling."
1:54: Or shouldn't.
2:50: ...Fortunate? *Fortunate???!!!*
5:21: That detail may be true, however. May.
5:48: Defenestration!!!
6:20: I think she did. It's just that she hasn't been forgiven of her transgressions properly, all while her granddaughters chose the crooked path themselves, not unlike how some good people end up birthing children and bearing forth descendants who became their sworn enemies and the things they hate in both real life and fiction.
Only Gotham Girls is worth remembering, SL.
As an aside, Hynden Walch nailed Harley in the 2004 shows with that proper level of chutzpah akin to good old Arleen Sorkin.
No mention of Bat-Mite wearing the OG Harley Quinn look?
11:43: But she must also realize that the others around her are also needy, co-dependent, and desperate to please people somewhat because they want them, especially Harley herself, to respect them. End quote.
12:31: Nowadays, they could be named "Little Miss Perfects".
Would be nice to see if Caped Crusader's Harley will actually be the true boss in case there's a relationship between her and the Joker, especially if the latter is the pushover this time when she's around.
Time will tell on who's the cynic, SL. Sooner or later, time will tell.
Of course Two-Face gets his side of the story next.
I’m glad she became a fan favorite almost immediately during her debut in BtAS. She’s such an awesome character and she represents my ADHD when I haven taken my medicine right before breakfast first thing in the morning. Even after the medicine’s effects have kicked in, there’s times where I’m still goofy, like her personality when she’s herself
I liked the 1992 Batman: The Animated Series
Harley Quinn WASN’T a victim. She was a fool with a savior complex who willingly helped Joker.
No chemicals disoriented her mind. She made her own choice out of “love”. Even when it was obvious she was wrong.
super interesting video!! Harley is one of my absolute favorite characters I love how you explored her portrayal in so many different pieces of media and how her character was changed and adapted not just to fit the narrative of whatever show/comic/movie itself but also with changes in how society at large views and understands abuse. that being said, there are some things I know I disagree with on a personal level but I'm only gonna get into one since it's kind of the crux of all the other things as well (heads up if you/anyone actually want to read, my pedantic ass is about to get super fucking obnoxious wall of text about words and nuance and what things mean and how we use language and other shit)
personally, I totally disagree with you on the idea of Harley as a victim. I love how you talked about there being more to her character and how victimhood doesn't define her but, imo, referring to her as a victim kinda undermines that. by definition she was _victimized_ , yes, but not a _victim_ ; in fact, I would use a totally different word for her altogether: survivor. the difference between all those words is small and heavily nuanced but to me it's an extremely important one because the difference lies in what's being centered when those words are used to invoke identity
victim, as a word, puts the abuse (and, in a way, therefore the abuser) first and the human being who experienced said abuse second. when calling Harley a victim the first thing we're made to understand is that horrible things happened to her. it may not define her entirely because it's not all she is but because the things she went through are immediately brought to the forefront all the other pieces of her identity and who she is are held up against her experiences with abuse. every part of her becomes recontextualized through the lens of that abuse. that also makes it difficult for readers to decouple their understanding of her or really any facet of her characterization from that specific context and therefore makes it incredibly easy to read a causal relationship into whatever events happen next even unintentionally✢. tbh I think all that might be where some of the complaints about changes to her character come from. if we hold the abuse she went through at the forefront and think of that first and everything else after I see how even small changes to that singular piece of her history would appear to contradict or undermine her whole entire character, like she's not even Harley Quinn anymore
that's why I think we should call her a survivor instead. to me, all the above where using a totally different word comes in and why using different language is important to how we tell and understand stories (and how stories impact our understanding of the world around us). the word _survivor_ puts Harley the individual person first. it centers her actions and the things she did, not the things that were done to her by the Joker. it also recontextualizes the abuse as something that she lived through, emphasis on the word _lived_. the impact of the abuse remains and will continue to impact our reading of her as a character regardless but that person-centric language decouples the abuse from wherever her story goes in the future
plus, survivor just so happens to be the word many of us in the actual real-world community prefer to use when talking about ourselves and our experiences with abuse (e.g. me: I haaaaaate being referred to as "a victim" so again, personal bias but then also the reason I spent the effort to write all of this to begin with). but yeah, that's my take anyway
*TL;DR awesome video but let's call Harley a survivor, not a victim, and talk about her in terms of what she did rather than what was done to her
source for why that's actually important to talk about: me, who is a nonfictional survivor of abuse and more than what was done to me*
✢I think the exact reading you give of "Harley's Holiday" is a perfect example of this: "despite her best efforts [to make a new life for herself]...she was just too damaged." because of the abuse she suffered at the hands of the Joker, Harley was so irreparably broken in such a fundamental way the could no longer function as a person, as if a piece of her very humanity was violently ripped away from her, the stolen piece leaving behind a gaping wound that could never heal. and yeah, ngl, that's pretty fucked. like, I know Harley isn't real or anything but laying it all out I at least find it hard not to see how fucked up just all of that is from start to finish (and that's not even getting into larger social critiques because lbr this is long enough already)
She WAS a complex character, modern writers simplified her writing by making her a girlboss that was a victim of Joker.
To the new Harley fans who are going to read this, don't get mad it's my individual opinion. I won't rewrite your fav character or anything, it's my own personnal take abt this character...
What was interesting about this character was that her condition was terrible, and got our empathy despite being a villain. She was a cautionary tale character. She was not relatable cause nobody wants a Joker/Harley relationship. Everytime he hurted her, she came back to him, which is annoying.
...Was she innocent at all ?
Absolutely not. Some ppl says that she suffers from stockholmes syndrom, which is untrue. She actually suffers from histrionic syndrom, which means that she likes having all the attention focused on her, even by acting immoral.
It's even more interesting. She had her free will and was enough egoistic to embrace her tentations, and then became a criminal.
Lady Gaga's Harley, despite having few screen time was an interesting take. Gaga said in interview that her Harley version was the one who chosen to follow the Joker. She didn't chosen to be submissive to be submissive, she wanted to listen to her bad tentations.
And actually that fits well to the OG Dini's take on Harley.
In the comic version of Dini, we have details about how she became a psychiatrist... And she wasn't that brilliant or professionnal bc she corrupted her teachers to get good grades. She wanted to become a psychiatrist cause she was obsessed with psychopaths. She's a groupie, she liked the toxicity of Joker.
She loved him at first sight.
She says at the end of "Mad Love" something like "it felt like a kiss".
That's the reason why she always come back to him, despite the fact that he doesn't like her or like her in a normal way.
She wants him to recognize her talent, she is satisfied by the attention that he give to her, even if it's toxic.
Her feelings were twisted but made her an interesting character, having a manichean point of view of this character doesn't work cause she's more than a victim.
The point of this character is that she has her free will, and she always had it. She decided to escape from reality, she's not immature like the way modern writers protrays by making her say bad jokes and giving her a weird relationship with Ivy that act like a mom for her...
No she's immature cause she refuses to face reality, she refuses to accept that Joker will never give her attention, that's tragic but more interesting than the shallow girlboss trope.
Calling the Harley Quinn Show a love letter to the source material after what they did to the Mr Freeze and Nora, is gross
First of all, love this. Love the video.
I really liked what they did with Harley in caped crusader. The focus on her psychiatry, psychoanalyzing her enemies. Heck, I got the vibe that she figured out who Batman is because of that comment about his trauma.
My one gripe tho is that like there's no reason she had to wear a damn costume. She doesn't commit any of her crimes herself, she makes other people do it. So like what's the point of the jester thing? To hide her identity from her victims? Cuz like a mask would've been enough.
I get that it's probably so you know it's Harley but like idk. Still really loved the interpretation
I think the point of the costume is to play up her own archetype - the jester, the harlequin - to her victims. They already know her identity.
I guess it comes back to those Jungian archetypes. I found it very interesting that she self-analysed and put herself through the same analysis. I suspect that there’s an element of disassociation as well, that it was Harley Quinn doing the torture, not Harleen Quinzel. Maybe.
Keep it up on your work and this video and channel
I love this video and channel
Thanks you for your video and channel
Yeah because remember what you said in the Trail video that she cheated her through life to get the promotion that she didn’t earned and I remember that Jon Kent(Superman’s son) even called her out on she help kill him and his mother in the Injustice universe and she should have died years as that is her’s and the Joker’s birth right and should have been a lost cause.
Especially in the 2004 series she also did some questionable things that she isn’t sympathetic as she wasn’t doing her job properly and responsibly like Patch Adams and for the Caped Crusader they really can’t make up their minds as I thought she was going to be a stand in for the Joker like Anarky in Beware the Batman series as there was a concept for the Joker of that series.
There is this movie called Ruby Gillman and it’s shows this point on its villain defeat that she claims she’s just pretty and misunderstood as that’s what media and society thinks.
if i'm being honest my main problems with modern harley (not caped crusader) is it feels like they could play up her former career more and have her knowledge of psychology on top of criminal past have her have a unique way of helping villains who are also victims like batman does, feels like she was dumbed down to just the clown side/persona
that and her newer design with blue and pink almost cheerleader get up is ugly to me
i get the idea behind changing the design to distance her from the joker but she made the design herself, its not like the joker made her dress like that
keeping more jester esq elements like a harlequinn, her damn name sake, feels like itd be better imo
Bo5h of these issues were fixed in caped crusader obviously leading to one of my favorite versions of the character
I like your analysis of the shows
Personally it feels kinda odd for two famous batman villains who have the same gimic as one another and not be related in any way like if I made a batman comic where there's a a dude made out of clay and shape shifts and is not related in anyway to clayface it would feel kinda odd I know these characters aren't JUST there gimic but it still feels weird