Richard was the "gutter" that Sir Thomas dropped that silver cup into. When Norfolk used the word gutter, he looked right at Richard. Richard was shocked that he had just been referred to as a gutter by Norfolk. Well, that's what you deserve Richard!
It was written for the stage, and in fact was an award winning play before it was a movie. Many of the actors wre just repeating their stage performance.
You need to see an earlier scene to get the flavour of this. Cromwell was repeating Norfolk's own words, said in confidence, to show just how good his spy network was. But you are right about the irony. Cromwell was beheaded years later for the same thing as Wolsey and More before him - failing to get Henry a new wife.
@@georgeprchal3924 Yes I know the scene. I didn't think Cromwell had a spy there because Norfolk had already found one and he ran off. There might have been two, but there enough ambiguity that neither I nor Norfolk could be sure.
@The Nation State No - died (possibly of natural causes) when under equivalent of house arrest. My point is he committed the same "crime" in Henry's eyes as the other two.
Norfolk didn't lose his head. He was condemned near the end of Henry's reign but Henry died before Norfolk was executed; he was released and had his title and property restored under Queen Mary.
Not being a man of letters does not mean that Norfolk couldn't read,but that he wasn't a scholar in the University educated sense of the word.Being a high born aristocrat,he would have been able to read,but wasn't deeply learned.
@dave4248 Norfolk was decent, but too naive and not bright enough to cope with the politics. In the complete film, watch for the two occurrences of the line "This isn't Spain, this is England." When Cromwell quotes the line back to him, watch Norfolk's face as he realizes he's being spied upon.
@@jimslancio The historical Norfolk was more cunning than his presentation in the film. He was in fact Catholic-inclined but not about to defy the king. As is mentioned at the end of the film, he was sentenced to death but Henry's death meant the sentence was not carried out, and he was reprieved because it was not considered a good idea to start the new reign of Edward VI with bloodshed. However, he was in the Tower throughout Edward's reign - Protestants were dominant. It is significant he was released in the reign of Mary. He died not long after.
This zeal shown by Thomas Cromwell to bring Thomas More to account will later be followed to its ultimate conclusion by his descendent Oliver Cromwell, who went up against the monarch,Charles I, and had him executed….what goes round comes around…
Until his death where by Charles II is invited by parliament to return from exile and be king again, he then has Cromwell exhumed and posthumously beheaded.
I would like it pointed out that the woman providing Cromwell's "evidence" admitted freely before three witnesses that she attempted to bribe a judge. It is, to use Cromwell's own words, common practice, but a practice may be common and remain an offense.
Curious from this scene that it is adjudged to be a greater offence to accept a bribe, than to offer one in the first instance. The latter seeks to pervert the course of justice, whereas the former tacitly or implicitly acquiesces in open view of the perversion. The only way to avoid integrity being debased by such impropriety, would appear to be refusing any and all such bribes.
I love how every horse 'won't run' and how in the end with St Thomas running rings around them they're forced to stoop the level or perjury. I just wished that they'd included Chapuys in this film
Leo Mckern was a brilliant actor as the likes of him with his qualities, are sadly no longer around. He represented the very best of the "old school" as he was a credit to his profession!
Yes, everybody focused on what a terrific hero Paul Scofield made but forgot what a wonderful foil Leo McKern made as the villain. Mind you both were helped by delivering some truly memorable lines.
"My dear fellow, this is England, not Spain!" Norfolk: *visibly unsure how to interpret that comment* God save m'lord Robert Bolt, patron saint of Screenwriters
I wonder if Thomas could have attended the wedding, or at least the party and kept to his head. He didnt need to accept the divorce and marriage, just show up to a party to see his friends.
The marriage wasn't the part he objected to. Although he did object to it he was fine with whatever parliament said regarding succession. What he objected to was the obese adulterer setting himself up as God's own representative and tearing apart the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that had existed for over 1500 years. Now Moore is a Saint and Henry is a pariah.
Probably not. In Catholicism, it's a mortal sin -- or at least, it's what's called "grave matter" -- to sacrilegiously simulate a sacrament, and it's similarly sinful to engage in "proximate cooperation with evil." Additionally, it's seriously sinful to "scandalize" others; that is, to lead them into the misunderstanding that something evil is actually good or permissible. So from the perspective of a Catholic like More, who knew his faith to a lawyerly degree of precision, Henry's plan to engage in an invalid pretense of marriage while _already_ married (which is what Henry _was,_ given the fact that his first wife, Catherine, wasn't dead) constituted "simulation of a sacrament." This made Henry VIII's new "bride" not a bride at all, but a "public concubine." For More to appear to celebrate it and treat it normally would be to _cooperate with evil,_ by leading others to _welcome_ Henry VIII's new state of public concubinage. And that would add the sin of scandal. Finally, "to go against conscience is neither right nor safe," is actually a quote from _Martin Luther,_ (!) but it's often cited by Catholic thinkers as, "ironically, the most-Catholic and most-correct thing Luther ever said." With his conscience already so entirely convinced -- not as a matter of feelings, mind you, since in Catholicism "conscience" refers to a "faculty of moral reasoning" and "the aboriginal vicar of Christ" and is unconnected to emotions as such -- More was obligated to be obedient to it. So, nope, More was stuck.
@@coolcat1684 Cromwell's own cronies eventually grew so disgusted with him that they ganged-up on him and condemned him to the King. Got his head chopped off...
When I was 11 Mom sent me to see "Anne of the Thousand Days" all by myself while the rest of the family stayed at my grandparents house, and to this day, don't know why, but, from that day on, I have always hated Thomas Cromwell. Always detested him, and thought he deserved what he got when he got beheaded himself. Kharma, I always thought. I started to read some books about him, and against my better judgement, I now look at him in a different manner instead of the one dimensional character of evil. Against my better judgement, I'm starting to feel a centimeter of sympathy for him. I now know he had a wife who died somewhat unexpectedly, and doubt if anyone asked him about it, or even cared, and then his two children died from the sweating sickness or whatever it was, and I can only imagine the sorrow he had losing them all in a matter of weeks, if I recall right. I still think he was a opportunist slug who, right or wrong, caused the downfall and murder of five innocent people all for a bloody son, but, I have a very small amount of sympathy and I do look at him in a different light, as I didn't know originally all these years that he was even married and had children, because, he sure seemed to work 24/7. Jane Seymour and her brothers all got kharma in the end.
It's obvious you and classic fan have your heads square up your asses. It's the democrats, progressives, media who are determined to throw out due process, free speech. The Kavenaugh witch hunt, the Covington HS boys in DC, Smollett's hate crime lie. All point to a group determined to throw out rule of law, innocent until proven guilty.
@@edmonddantes3640 EXACTLY and WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!! You at least have your head squarely on your shoulders and can see the truth unlike pbruc brooks who has his head so far up his butt, he can't see nothing but his crap.
Those whose nature is hatred and bigotry when met with one of transparency and kindness will only interpret those foreign elements as impossible and believe his fellow man as a self hating bigot. You Sir are such a one.
![[UNCUT] เพื่อไทยดันอุ๊งอิ๊งนั่งนายกฯ หลังเศรษฐาถูกถอดถอน | คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ | 15 ส.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SpprmDJ6QEE/mqdefault.jpg)
"That cow put her case into court in April..." Plus he got in a nice shot at Richard with his "nearest gutter" comment. Norfolk's hilarious!
a sign of a *very* good script.
Norfolk had a perfect working 'moral compass' But his moral 'spine' could've used some repair.
Richard was the "gutter" that Sir Thomas dropped that silver cup into. When Norfolk used the word gutter, he looked right at Richard. Richard was shocked that he had just been referred to as a gutter by Norfolk. Well, that's what you deserve Richard!
"GODDAMNIT HE WAS THE ONLY JUDGE SINCE KATO THAT DIDN'T ACCEPT BRIBES!"
This line does not refer to Kato (the Green Hornet's sidekick) but to Cato (the ancient Roman )
Cato dummy
Dorks, we knew what he meant.
The script for this movie was brilliant.
It was written for the stage, and in fact was an award winning play before it was a movie. Many of the actors wre just repeating their stage performance.
@@kenoliver8913 That explains a lot then!
@@kenoliver8913 Stage acting requires an ability to project the voice and McKern and Davenport in particular could do that.
"This isn't Spain, this is England. "
Said by one man who is going to lose his head to another.
You need to see an earlier scene to get the flavour of this. Cromwell was repeating Norfolk's own words, said in confidence, to show just how good his spy network was. But you are right about the irony. Cromwell was beheaded years later for the same thing as Wolsey and More before him - failing to get Henry a new wife.
Given how Henry proceeded.
@@georgeprchal3924 Yes I know the scene. I didn't think Cromwell had a spy there because Norfolk had already found one and he ran off. There might have been two, but there enough ambiguity that neither I nor Norfolk could be sure.
@The Nation State No - died (possibly of natural causes) when under equivalent of house arrest. My point is he committed the same "crime" in Henry's eyes as the other two.
Norfolk didn't lose his head. He was condemned near the end of Henry's reign but Henry died before Norfolk was executed; he was released and had his title and property restored under Queen Mary.
Not being a man of letters does not mean that Norfolk couldn't read,but that he wasn't a scholar in the University educated sense of the word.Being a high born aristocrat,he would have been able to read,but wasn't deeply learned.
Basically Cromwell was calling Norfolk ignorant.
@dave4248 Norfolk was decent, but too naive and not bright enough to cope with the politics. In the complete film, watch for the two occurrences of the line "This isn't Spain, this is England." When Cromwell quotes the line back to him, watch Norfolk's face as he realizes he's being spied upon.
@@jimslancio The historical Norfolk was more cunning than his presentation in the film. He was in fact Catholic-inclined but not about to defy the king. As is mentioned at the end of the film, he was sentenced to death but Henry's death meant the sentence was not carried out, and he was reprieved because it was not considered a good idea to start the new reign of Edward VI with bloodshed. However, he was in the Tower throughout Edward's reign - Protestants were dominant. It is significant he was released in the reign of Mary. He died not long after.
"Watson you have a gift for explaining the obvious...."
Superb movie of a superb play.
Yootha Joyce - hit a home run in only seconds as Avril.
This zeal shown by Thomas Cromwell to bring Thomas More to account will later be followed to its ultimate conclusion by his descendent Oliver Cromwell, who went up against the monarch,Charles I, and had him executed….what goes round comes around…
Until his death where by Charles II is invited by parliament to return from exile and be king again, he then has Cromwell exhumed and posthumously beheaded.
You do know, don't you, that Henry eventually had Thomas Cromwell beheaded too?
Oliver Cromwell was not a descendant of Thomas Cromwell.He was a descendant of Thomas' sister, Katherine.
I would like it pointed out that the woman providing Cromwell's "evidence" admitted freely before three witnesses that she attempted to bribe a judge. It is, to use Cromwell's own words, common practice, but a practice may be common and remain an offense.
Curious from this scene that it is adjudged to be a greater offence to accept a bribe, than to offer one in the first instance. The latter seeks to pervert the course of justice, whereas the former tacitly or implicitly acquiesces in open view of the perversion. The only way to avoid integrity being debased by such impropriety, would appear to be refusing any and all such bribes.
I love how every horse 'won't run' and how in the end with St Thomas running rings around them they're forced to stoop the level or perjury. I just wished that they'd included Chapuys in this film
Leo Mckern was a brilliant actor as the likes of him with his qualities, are sadly no longer around. He represented the very best of the "old school" as he was a credit to his profession!
Yes, everybody focused on what a terrific hero Paul Scofield made but forgot what a wonderful foil Leo McKern made as the villain. Mind you both were helped by delivering some truly memorable lines.
John Hurt looking like he's wandered in off Carnaby Street
Norfolk should have spoken to Henry instead of taking Cromwells word for it
"My dear fellow, this is England, not Spain!" Norfolk: *visibly unsure how to interpret that comment* God save m'lord Robert Bolt, patron saint of Screenwriters
Thomas More wasn't all that silent in Chelsea.
I wonder if Thomas could have attended the wedding, or at least the party and kept to his head. He didnt need to accept the divorce and marriage, just show up to a party to see his friends.
The marriage wasn't the part he objected to. Although he did object to it he was fine with whatever parliament said regarding succession. What he objected to was the obese adulterer setting himself up as God's own representative and tearing apart the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that had existed for over 1500 years.
Now Moore is a Saint and Henry is a pariah.
Probably not.
In Catholicism, it's a mortal sin -- or at least, it's what's called "grave matter" -- to sacrilegiously simulate a sacrament, and it's similarly sinful to engage in "proximate cooperation with evil." Additionally, it's seriously sinful to "scandalize" others; that is, to lead them into the misunderstanding that something evil is actually good or permissible.
So from the perspective of a Catholic like More, who knew his faith to a lawyerly degree of precision, Henry's plan to engage in an invalid pretense of marriage while _already_ married (which is what Henry _was,_ given the fact that his first wife, Catherine, wasn't dead) constituted "simulation of a sacrament." This made Henry VIII's new "bride" not a bride at all, but a "public concubine." For More to appear to celebrate it and treat it normally would be to _cooperate with evil,_ by leading others to _welcome_ Henry VIII's new state of public concubinage. And that would add the sin of scandal.
Finally, "to go against conscience is neither right nor safe," is actually a quote from _Martin Luther,_ (!) but it's often cited by Catholic thinkers as, "ironically, the most-Catholic and most-correct thing Luther ever said." With his conscience already so entirely convinced -- not as a matter of feelings, mind you, since in Catholicism "conscience" refers to a "faculty of moral reasoning" and "the aboriginal vicar of Christ" and is unconnected to emotions as such -- More was obligated to be obedient to it.
So, nope, More was stuck.
Cromwell is surely detestable.
akosigundam he got executed for his troubles....
To be fair it's not clear he had a choice. Also the absence of an heir was a problem.
@@coolcat1684 Cromwell's own cronies eventually grew so disgusted with him that they ganged-up on him and condemned him to the King. Got his head chopped off...
When I was 11 Mom sent me to see "Anne of the Thousand Days" all by myself while the rest of the family stayed at my grandparents house, and to this day, don't know why, but, from that day on, I have always hated Thomas Cromwell. Always detested him, and thought he deserved what he got when he got beheaded himself. Kharma, I always thought. I started to read some books about him, and against my better judgement, I now look at him in a different manner instead of the one dimensional character of evil. Against my better judgement, I'm starting to feel a centimeter of sympathy for him. I now know he had a wife who died somewhat unexpectedly, and doubt if anyone asked him about it, or even cared, and then his two children died from the sweating sickness or whatever it was, and I can only imagine the sorrow he had losing them all in a matter of weeks, if I recall right. I still think he was a opportunist slug who, right or wrong, caused the downfall and murder of five innocent people all for a bloody son, but, I have a very small amount of sympathy and I do look at him in a different light, as I didn't know originally all these years that he was even married and had children, because, he sure seemed to work 24/7. Jane Seymour and her brothers all got kharma in the end.
The academic investigation into Cromwell which post dated this movie tends to upturn the long held views about him.
Yootha Joyce fine Actress 🏆
Sir Thomas Moore was convicted by rules of personal convenience...
Leo McKern as the Duchess in Miller's 1966 Alice in Wonderland - if you haven't seen it, ya gotta
I preferred his Rumpole of the Bailey. But a very versatile actor, equally at home in farce or Shakespearean tragedy
1:30 “1 Timothy 2:12”
Throw the bill of sale in the fire?
Exodus 20:7,
Deute. 18:10-14,
Boy, these guys really don't like Spaniards do they? This is in spain! They said that many times
Sir Thomas Moore was one of Englands finest patriot's. Henry the 8th is like Trump. Drunk with power and foolish.
It's obvious you and classic fan have your heads square up your asses.
It's the democrats, progressives, media who are determined to throw out due process, free speech. The Kavenaugh witch hunt, the Covington HS boys in DC, Smollett's hate crime lie. All point to a group determined to throw out rule of law, innocent until proven guilty.
Sod off, idiot!! He is NOT like Trump, fool, he's more like Obama or the Clintons. Idiot!
@@edmonddantes3640 EXACTLY and WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!! You at least have your head squarely on your shoulders and can see the truth unlike pbruc brooks who has his head so far up his butt, he can't see nothing but his crap.
More wasn’t as saintly as portrayed in this movie. He wasn’t averse to arranging the torture of people (in his own home) who didn’t agree with him.
Those whose nature is hatred and bigotry when met with one of transparency and kindness will only interpret those foreign elements as impossible and believe his fellow man as a self hating bigot. You Sir are such a one.