Please join the David Starkey Members' Club via Patreon www.patreon.com/davidstarkeytalks or Subscribestar www.subscribestar.com/david-starkey-talks and submit questions for members Q & A videos. Also visit www.davidstarkey.com to make a donation and visit the channel store shop.davidstarkey.com. Thank you for watching.
@Ruth Collins I couldn’t agree more! I hope his last words were repeated to Henry and maybe it caused him some pause. I know it’s easy to look at these events in our 21st century eyes; however, I think the death of Moore was perhaps the most tragic of all of those Henry used and disposed of,
@@petah-peoplefortheendlesst4668 She is a novelist, so not a legitimate source for More or anything else. To be fair, neither is Robert Bolt, the playwright.
@@MarilynRB Cardinal Fisher was also brave in the face of Henry's tyranny. It may have been easier for him, since he had no family for Henry to avenge himself upon. Better to die with the truth than to live his last years as a lie. More tried hard to avoid speaking out, but, in the end, he does so. I think he was trying to protect his family. If he had no family, he might have spoken sooner.
Listening to David starkey helps me lots with my biopilar disorder keeps me carm and seem to be able to connect with events David teaches us in. I thank you very much new member to your club 🇬🇧💙
Buckingham faced the axe, Wolsey faced the axe, Fisher faced the axe, More faced the axe, Cromwell faced the axe, Norfolk and son faced the axe - his son, Surrey, died; he, Norfolk, lived because Henry VIII predeceased him. Wolsey and Cromwell never ceased to be the King's creatures. Buckingham, Norfolk and son were self-interested noblemen who conceivably threatened the King's position. If you must die at the hands of the King, better to die for a higher purpose, like Fisher, More, and also Becket. Your life can be taken from you, your morality never can be but of you own choosing.
What if you have a family that you are leaving behind? The Boleyns would have probably faced much worse consequences had Anne, George or Thomas stood firmly and opposed the King even more.
@@jopuk9518 What matters more? Wealth and position or dignity and truth? Thomas Boleyn obviously thought the former, which is why he kept schtum for the remaining three years of his sad life. His children were murdered by conspiracy and he said nothing. He thought silence was worth it. I wouldn't have thought that. Maybe he was thinking about his granddaughter's future. Well, I really don't think Henry would have executed his own child like a Russian tsar (Ivan IV, Peter I, Stalin). Even in this scenario, if I read Thomas Boleyn's mind correctly, wealth and status (Elizabeth's potential queenship) was his calculation.
Such a luxury & a rarity - in these present days - to listen to the informed perspectives of Dr Starkey - beautifully orated - accessible intelligent historic accounts about the heritage & history of our country - wonderful. Clearly a case where "wokery" worked in the public's favour. Love that latter irony!
@Marina Knife I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s for that very reason I support him on Patreon. I want to see his TH-cam channel subscribers go to the MILLIONS!
Is it possible that the Woke / Anti-woke mutual cancellation works to our spiritual ill-health? At least in America, I notice that virulent anti-woke individuals slide toward neo-Nazi & social-Darwinist positions. Example: Musk’s explicit support for Germany’s Afd party.
I can think of no greater pleasure than seeing a new David Starkey video to enjoy on a Friday night after a tiring week at work. I shall have a glass of wine or two and enjoy. Thank you David xXX
When I was a boy here in Germany, like many other youths, I was a member of the KJG ( Catholic youth). It wasn't very religious though but Thomas Moore (Thomas Morus for us) was it's patron saint. We were never told anything about the man. Now I know. Thank you.
Brilliant! I've always liked More because he educated his daughters, and female wards, to the same level as his sons. I like that in a man. Thanks, Dr. Starkey.
Yet he had no,problem at all authorising torture and death on others. He is very much a man who is bigoted in his beliefs. Not sure that is enough to overcome educating his own daughters, yet not other daughters.
@@maryearll3359 On what evidence? More didn't have the power to execute anyone - Henry did. I sense some anti-Catholic bigotry here, not knowledge of history. Stating that heretics should be punished is not the same as doing it.
What a fine talk Dr Starkey. What an absolutely gripping history we have. This Tudor period has every second filled with threat, intrigue and political manoeuvring....what a page turner!
I’ve always loved this from A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS: “When a man takes an oath, Meg, he's holding his own self in his own hands. Like water (he cups his hands) and if he opens his fingers then, he needn't hope to find himself again. Some men aren't capable of this, but I'd be loathe to think your father one of them.” Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
Sir Thomas More will always have my respect . A man with absolutely integrity Principles and Honor. I’m sure you are in a place where you are respect value & love . Thanks for you videos they are very much appreciate . Greetings from California. 💕
Those principles include the killing and torturing of people for 'thought crimes' He was blind to the quite clear problems in the Church of Rome, remember the pope refused Henry's request for a divorce for political, not religious reasons. The same pope was happy to grant divorces when it was 'profitable '
@MJ Richards.... I did too until I learnt he tortured and then killed over, if I remember correctly, about 100 people who wouldn't repent from wanting to worship but not to the Roman Catholic rules. Couldn't reconcile that to a man of God. He was a fanatic. Went right off him
David, thank you for such an excellent and informed presentation on Thomas More and also Fisher/Becket. I had not realised the similarity in stance between Becket and Fisher, and the subtle difference in how Thomas More stood. You have inspired me to now learn more about Fisher during my theology and Christian history studies. God bless.
Such a pleasure to listen to your erudite explanation and dissemination of history. Also an equal shame that the wider public no longer have the chance to hear you and your views on mainstream television.
Thank you so much for this! I am minded of Joseph Campbell's wonderful quote about the importance and influence of heroes: "We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known; we have only to follow the thread of the hero path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god. And where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves. And where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."
When Michelangelo was crafting a statue of Pope Julius II, Julius offered this suggestion: "Put a sword there [in my statue's hands, rather than a scroll], for I know nothing of letters."
I didn't realise Henry had known More since childhood. Well that certainly explains why he relied on his advice so much. Until More started to not do what Henry wanted. No wonder he was so inspired by Beckett.
I am so pleased by your lectures on English History it's been my favorite subject 4 yrs & I also belong 2 your at the Patron channel evena upgrade i feel its important 2 b able 2 hear u & hopefully 2 do so 4 yrs 💙🇬🇧🌟
Henry had almost a pathological way of disposing of people once they weren’t useful to him any longer. I wonder if he ever looked in the mirror and thought “God, what have I done?”. I always thought the death of Sir Thomas Moore to be the most tragic of all those Henry used and discarded of, or at least close to what he did to Catherine of Aragon. Who is with me? I’d love to discuss this in the comments.
Katherine of Aragon is one of the people I love and admire most, along with St Thomas More. Remarkable, both of them. True to themselves, and courageous to the end. They never wavered.
@@AM-vq2ol I couldn’t agree with you more. My heart truly aches for Catherine; after 20 years to just be tossed aside like she was a mistake? Again, he was pathological the way he just got rid of people.
He did apparently have some regret about Cromwell ex post facto. The French ambassador, de Marilliac, reported that Henry had complained to him that, "under pretext of some slight offences which he had committed, they had brought several accusations against him, on the strength of which he had put to death the most faithful servant he ever had." Henry also treated Cromwell's son (married to Jane Seymour's sister) with consideration, and made him Baron Cromwell only 5 months after Thomas's execution.
A Man For All Seasons (Al Stewart) What if you reached the age of reason Only to find there was no reprieve Would you still be a man for all seasons? Or would you just have to leave We measure our days out In steps of uncertainty Not turning to see how we've come And peer down the highway From here to eternity And reach out for love on the run While the man for all seasons Is lost behind the sun Henry Plantagenet still looks for someone To bring good news in his hour of doubt While Thomas More waits in the Tower of London Watching the sands running out And measures the hours out From here to oblivion In actions that can't be undone A sailor through the darkness He scans the meridian And caught by the first rays of dawn The man for all seasons Is lost beneath the storm And I should know by now I should know by now I hear them call it out all around Oh, they go There's nothing to believe in Hear them, Just daydreams, deceiving They'll just let you down What if you reached the age of reason Only to find there was no reprieve Would you still be a man for all seasons? Or would you just disbelieve? We measure our gains out in luck and coincidence Lanterns to turn back the night And put our defeats down to chance or experience And try once again for the light Some wait for the waters of fortune to cover them Some just see the tides of ill chance running over them Some call on Jehovah Some cry out to Allah Some wait for the boats that still row to Valhalla Well, you should try to accept what the fates are unfolding While some say they're sure where the blame should be falling You look round for maybe a chance of forestalling Bot too soon its over and done And the man for all seasons Is lost behind the sun
Thanks Dr Starkey. You always bring a new perspective to these famous figures whose stories we've heard so often, ones that make them feel fresh again. And get us thinking. I'd certainly hate to be in the positions of either Thomas Beckett, John Fisher or Thomas More. Because what dilemmas they faced. Didn't Henry II make Beckett Archbishop of Canterbury, because he was so sure that his old friend would always side with him? But then, of course, Archbishop Beckett realises that he might be the king's friend, but his Master is actually God. And he can't serve two Masters. And then looking at the history between Henry VIII and Thomas More. It's not to be wondered at that such as especially egotistical and selfish monarch would assume that More would never say 'no' to him. But Henry find that there's a rival that he can't win against, and that's God. Thomas More believes that his king wants him to agree to something that goes against God's Will. And he can't do it. But imagine the fear of knowing that you stand to lose something, whichever way you turn. Say 'no' to the king and you're a traitor which means death. Say 'no' to God and you're a heretic, which means Hell and Damnation.
Being the sinple man that I am iv only just come across you. And I've been listening to you all day around work all week. You are my new idol and inspire me to learn more. Thank you for your work
The Lord Chief Justice says: "if it's an Act of Parliament, it's good enough". Then Dr Starkey says: "a classic position of English Common Law". I hope David will forgive me, but an Act of Parliament is *Statute Law* - a very different animal from English Common Law, which derives from centuries of judicial precedent and basic humanist principles of natural justice - one could even call it "common sense". Indeed, Sir Thomas More could not have been condemned under English Common Law (which was eventually adopted by the United States and countless other jurisdictions around the World). It was *Statute Law* which sent him to his death. Aside from this, yet again a wonderfully insightful account. Many thanks.
I think the point David was making, was that according to common law, there is nothing... within the realm of England, that an act of parliament cannot do/declare. It's a common law position on the power of statute law. I hope that makes sense... and I hope I'm not mis-representing Professor Starkey.
Absolutely wonderful. History was difficult for me in school, because it was forced upon us to learn dates and the like. This really brings it to life. The pieces of the jigsaw puzzle are falling into place thanks to you. Greetings from New Zealand.
David, thank you so much for taking the time to educate me on history. Continue to do excellent work. I'd be interested in hearing about Oliver Cromwell's life and times.
Dear Dr Starkey-Please forgive this intrusion upon your time. May I begin by saying how very much I enjoy your work.Your style is both erudite and entertaining, and I doff my cap to you sir. It always strikes me as odd that the ecclesiastic policy of King Henry VIII constitutes a complete denial of one of the primary articles of the Magna Carta, namely "that the English Church shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired". Very odd for a King as patriotic as the eighth Henry to so openly flout so vital an aspect of ancient law. If I may ask, what is your view.
Obviously More was relatively on the side of the law, people and tradition. And he wasn't alienated or marginalised. He was murdered by a criminal tyrant. He's rightly a saint.
My high school was sir Thomas more high school. Catholic of course . Saw the portrait every day when I walked into school. Sparked the beginnings of my love of history
History as practiced by Roman Catholics tends to be extremely biased, partizan and and leans toward indoctrination, I still remember trying to explain the Protestant Reformation and it's antecedents to 3 Roman Catholic children of my former acquaintance and it was almost completely beyond their ability to comprehend. Apparently the main cause of the Reformation was that Martin Luther wanted to shag a nun, which make me wonder if people like Starkey and peers aren't perhaps wasting their time a bit ?
i hope david that you had a good new year for 2022 i think this upload is one of your best so far no one i am sure would say that sir thomas more was not brave to go against harry but it is good to know that thomas is a patron saint for children and also for our parliament but our mps have not his good nature or his sense of right most of them dont or cant come close as sir thomas more thanks again for your upload see you soon stay well and safe yours avon leicestershire 2022
Were I to have lived in that time I certainly would have been religious. Born in the '50s, though, I could not imagine how anyone could be. Thus, I struggle to understand so much of the past in the context of religion. Thank you, Dr. Starkey, for illuminating this in the case of More - a case I never felt I understood.
@@amysill3815 Truth is obviously not on the side of religion. Truth is indeed often unpleasant and rarely comforting. So...I get it. I do. But spare me the passive-aggressive promise of prayers on my behalf.
It is inspiring to think of Thomas More as a politician We today are so used to thinking of him in light of his sainthood But of course that way of thinking is hind-sighted When he was still living it was all about politics! It is hard to remember this in light of what our politics has become lately Our politicians adopt the latest fad without a qualm merely to get invited the right parties - while More stood by his principles and accepted condemnation and the block in order to serve God
It is unfathomable how anyone can sanctify the reputation of Thomas More. This man of "conscience" is very selective and narcissistic as to a personal morality. He has a direct hand in burning heretics at the stake, he physically abused individuals to get them to recant their non Catholic Christian faith, he burns heretical books, and is an ardent persecutor of the protestant reformation. His martyrdom cannot be disassociated from his making martyrs of anyone who opposed his own beliefs. In our time, his fate sounds more like justice prevailed in bringing down a dangerous religious zealot.
It is, as always, a pleasure to listen to Dr Starkey (presume that has not been rescinded) but shall once again begin my comment by suggesting Dr Starkey sit further away from the camera -- it would improve things greatly (see Peter Whittle's programme). Also, the line from the great play is: 'To do the right THING for the wrong reason.'
Brilliant video, as always, from David Starkey. As someone brought up as a member of, The Church of England I am glad that we severed our ties to Rome and Papacy, however, it makes me smile (ruefully) how evil the journey of our ‘split’ was. I understand (better now) More’s role and views to try and prevent this massive change happening …he had no chance ever of ‘winning his battle of words’ in the den of vipers of the Tudor Court. Can anyone imagine arguing any point with scum like Richard Rich and other ;new men’ (of those turbulent times) . it’s like us , in 2024, trying to argue with today’s government. Our views are not heard…always a better argument to silence us.
If Sir Thomas More could speak, I wonder what legal case he would make of today's crisis. The unlimited exercise of Govt power against the most basic rights of the individual is something he knows well about.,
St Thomas died for the Church, it's dogma, doctrine and papal fatherhood. Because someone who disowns their own father is not a true son. We can also call him the resolute opponent of the Revolution. Because all politics is also belief. And all conflict theological.
It is doubtful that More said " the king's good servant, but God first" because More was very cautious not to antagonise the king's council, fearing that it could endanger his family (More's).
Perhaps the problem for Moore was the degree to which he was a good 'imitator of Jesus', or not. Am I not correct that Moore had no hesitation in sentencing human beings to be burned alive? If that is correct, where were his 'principles' in those instances? And it is not sufficient to state, "He was a man of his times"; because the 'model' for him was the same as it is for us today.
Dearest David . I’m so disappointed that you reply to members only . I’ve made this clear some months ago. Some of us cannot pay the required amount for membership and so on. Why not select a non members question once a fortnight? Or once a month? I just watched both movies relating to this subject. Becket, Burton was great but O’toole was sensational. And A man of all Seasons. Scofield sublime. I have had very similar thoughts and questions as Rory. And I’m delighted to watch you answering these points of inquiry so fully and with compelling answers and reason. I as many miss your first class historical tv production’s on network TV. And surprised that you have not received offers from National Geographic or Discovery or Sky documentaries to name a few, for your enlightened historical knowledge , honesty , integrity that allows you to entertain us with our very own history. Programs on Becket and or Thomas More would be so informative and delightful. A new perspective regarding your favorite Henry viii? And an in depth program on Richard iii , with regards to the evidence of his brother not being sired by the same father , the Tudor destruction and altering of Richard’s portraits and the hump or not the hump :) finally twins in the tower . Please consider your admirers and the people who respect your opinions and would continue to hear them even though they are not members. I wish you all the best and I hope you can find the time to respond to this comment in the hope that your team passes it on to you. Yours sincerely. Dave in Hamburg
What was the role of Moore in the ultimate martyrdom of Tyndale . After all you wouldn't want people reading the Bible in the common language would you ?
Henry’s egocentrism must have been as monstrous as the physical man himself : how else can a person with a functioning brain reconcile the manifest contradictions screaming back at you when implementing the exact opposite of what you’ve previously asserted and dragging in and forcing others to do the same shameful turnabouts. Being so egocentric as not feeling any shame in behaving like a spoiled child bent on having its own way no matter the consequences, having no accountability at all. A man at the mercy of his own passions : a slave not a king.
Please join the David Starkey Members' Club via Patreon www.patreon.com/davidstarkeytalks or Subscribestar www.subscribestar.com/david-starkey-talks and submit questions for members Q & A videos. Also visit www.davidstarkey.com to make a donation and visit the channel store shop.davidstarkey.com. Thank you for watching.
Thank you Dr. David starkey I've been a fan of yours for a very long time,
Bravo!
I love More's quote just before he is beheaded " I die the King's good servant, but God's first".
@Ruth Collins I couldn’t agree more! I hope his last words were repeated to Henry and maybe it caused him some pause. I know it’s easy to look at these events in our 21st century eyes; however, I think the death of Moore was perhaps the most tragic of all of those Henry used and disposed of,
More had it coming. Read Mantel's "Bring Up the Bodies". He was awful.
@@petah-peoplefortheendlesst4668 She is a novelist, so not a legitimate source for More or anything else. To be fair, neither is Robert Bolt, the playwright.
One of the people I admire most. Along with Katherine of Aragon.
@@MarilynRB Cardinal Fisher was also brave in the face of Henry's tyranny. It may have been easier for him, since he had no family for Henry to avenge himself upon. Better to die with the truth than to live his last years as a lie.
More tried hard to avoid speaking out, but, in the end, he does so. I think he was trying to protect his family. If he had no family, he might have spoken sooner.
As a lawyer and a Catholic, I've always found More fascinating.
Inspiring history presented in Dr Starkey's compelling style. Always a pleasure.
Listening to David starkey helps me lots with my biopilar disorder keeps me carm and seem to be able to connect with events David teaches us in. I thank you very much new member to your club 🇬🇧💙
Me too.
@@grannyannie6744
Hi Annie we both love David’s videos hope brings you pleasure like myself 💙
My best wishes to you David. I am sorry you have that condition but I hope things can improve in the future and that you will lead a happy life.
If u have bipolar, u keep on reciting Jesus name all the time, u will be cured
I agree. Very pacifying.
Buckingham faced the axe, Wolsey faced the axe, Fisher faced the axe, More faced the axe, Cromwell faced the axe, Norfolk and son faced the axe - his son, Surrey, died; he, Norfolk, lived because Henry VIII predeceased him. Wolsey and Cromwell never ceased to be the King's creatures. Buckingham, Norfolk and son were self-interested noblemen who conceivably threatened the King's position. If you must die at the hands of the King, better to die for a higher purpose, like Fisher, More, and also Becket. Your life can be taken from you, your morality never can be but of you own choosing.
What if you have a family that you are leaving behind? The Boleyns would have probably faced much worse consequences had Anne, George or Thomas stood firmly and opposed the King even more.
@@jopuk9518 What matters more? Wealth and position or dignity and truth? Thomas Boleyn obviously thought the former, which is why he kept schtum for the remaining three years of his sad life. His children were murdered by conspiracy and he said nothing. He thought silence was worth it. I wouldn't have thought that. Maybe he was thinking about his granddaughter's future. Well, I really don't think Henry would have executed his own child like a Russian tsar (Ivan IV, Peter I, Stalin). Even in this scenario, if I read Thomas Boleyn's mind correctly, wealth and status (Elizabeth's potential queenship) was his calculation.
You forgot Margaret Pole.
You forgot Anne Boleyn
@@jopuk9518 Brother George was beheaded the day before Anne's demise- allegations of incest. No one could oppose the King, those were dark times.
Such a luxury & a rarity - in these present days - to listen to the informed perspectives of Dr Starkey - beautifully orated - accessible intelligent historic accounts about the heritage & history of our country - wonderful. Clearly a case where "wokery" worked in the public's favour. Love that latter irony!
What Cambridge University foolishly threw away, we get to benefit from.
@@Redrosewitch Exactly & isn't it wonderful ... always look forward to Dr Starkey's videos.
@Marina Knife I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s for that very reason I support him on Patreon. I want to see his TH-cam channel subscribers go to the MILLIONS!
Is it possible that the Woke / Anti-woke mutual cancellation works to our spiritual ill-health? At least in America, I notice that virulent anti-woke individuals slide toward neo-Nazi & social-Darwinist positions. Example: Musk’s explicit support for Germany’s Afd party.
I can think of no greater pleasure than seeing a new David Starkey video to enjoy on a Friday night after a tiring week at work. I shall have a glass of wine or two and enjoy. Thank you David xXX
When I was a boy here in Germany, like many other youths, I was a member of the KJG ( Catholic youth). It wasn't very religious though but Thomas Moore (Thomas Morus for us) was it's patron saint. We were never told anything about the man. Now I know. Thank you.
Pray for us all St Thomas More
I still enjoy watching A Man for All Seasons, with Paul Scofield as More and Robert Shaw as Henry.
From a play written by Robert Bolt - a Roman Catholic.
i think that More believed in torturing protestants and did it!!!! so, as a saint he was à Saint!!!
Great movie.
@@bekytwining2522 prove that.
A wonderful film!
Saint Thomas More. Thank you for sharing.
Brilliant! I've always liked More because he educated his daughters, and female wards, to the same level as his sons. I like that in a man. Thanks, Dr. Starkey.
Yet he had no,problem at all authorising torture and death on others.
He is very much a man who is bigoted in his beliefs. Not sure that is enough to overcome educating his own daughters, yet not other daughters.
@@dianeshelton9592 At last ! Someone else who recognises More was a murderer.
@@dianeshelton9592 Where is your evidence? More didn't have that kind of power - Henry did,
@@maryearll3359 On what evidence? More didn't have the power to execute anyone - Henry did.
I sense some anti-Catholic bigotry here, not knowledge of history.
Stating that heretics should be punished is not the same as doing it.
@@dianeshelton9592 More was possessed by the devil.
What a fine talk Dr Starkey.
What an absolutely gripping history we have. This Tudor period has every second filled with threat, intrigue and political manoeuvring....what a page turner!
I’ve always loved this from A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS:
“When a man takes an oath, Meg, he's holding his own self in his own hands. Like water (he cups his hands) and if he opens his fingers then, he needn't hope to find himself again. Some men aren't capable of this, but I'd be loathe to think your father one of them.”
Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
Sir Thomas More will always have my respect . A man with absolutely integrity Principles and Honor. I’m sure you are in a place where you are respect value & love . Thanks for you videos they are very much appreciate . Greetings from California. 💕
I admire him so much.
Those principles include the killing and torturing of people for 'thought crimes' He was blind to the quite clear problems in the Church of Rome, remember the pope refused Henry's request for a divorce for political, not religious reasons. The same pope was happy to grant divorces when it was 'profitable '
@MJ Richards.... I did too until I learnt he tortured and then killed over, if I remember correctly, about 100 people who wouldn't repent from wanting to worship but not to the Roman Catholic rules. Couldn't reconcile that to a man of God. He was a fanatic. Went right off him
@@maryearll3359 Who are you talking about? More had no power to torture or execute anyone.
@@pattierotondo1108 He was Lord Chancellor, of course he did.
David, thank you for such an excellent and informed presentation on Thomas More and also Fisher/Becket. I had not realised the similarity in stance between Becket and Fisher, and the subtle difference in how Thomas More stood. You have inspired me to now learn more about Fisher during my theology and Christian history studies. God bless.
Dr Starkey's delivery is brilliant. This is like having your own personal seminar tutor at Cambridge.
Best Wishes DS.
All that is missing is the small glass of dry sherry….
Such a pleasure to listen to your erudite explanation and dissemination of history. Also an equal shame that the wider public no longer have the chance to hear you and your views on mainstream television.
Thank you Dr Starkey. You not only make me think - but make me rethink.
I think if David had been a historical consultant on A Man For All Seasons he would have made it an even greater film.🎥🎬😂
Thank you so much for this! I am minded of Joseph Campbell's wonderful quote about the importance and influence of heroes: "We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known; we have only to follow the thread of the hero path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god. And where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves. And where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."
Dr Starkey reveals More's tragic dilemmas with knowledge and sympathy. 40 worthwhile minutes on the net is rare.
When Michelangelo was crafting a statue of Pope Julius II, Julius offered this suggestion: "Put a sword there [in my statue's hands, rather than a scroll], for I know nothing of letters."
I didn't realise Henry had known More since childhood. Well that certainly explains why he relied on his advice so much. Until More started to not do what Henry wanted. No wonder he was so inspired by Beckett.
Beckett was wrong to oppose Henry on clerical immunity.
I found this moving. Thanks very much David.
Would absolutely love a dedicated video to Becket. Really enjoyed this exploration of Thomas More, probably my favourite of Henry’s Thomas servants!
I am so pleased by your lectures on English History it's been my favorite subject 4 yrs
& I also belong 2 your at the Patron channel evena upgrade i feel its important 2 b able 2 hear u & hopefully 2 do so 4 yrs 💙🇬🇧🌟
Once again, a superb video. Thank you, David.
Wonderful having my brain exercised with my favorite historian
brilliant another DS video - Thank You so much.
Henry had almost a pathological way of disposing of people once they weren’t useful to him any longer. I wonder if he ever looked in the mirror and thought “God, what have I done?”. I always thought the death of Sir Thomas Moore to be the most tragic of all those Henry used and discarded of, or at least close to what he did to Catherine of Aragon.
Who is with me? I’d love to discuss this in the comments.
Katherine of Aragon is one of the people I love and admire most, along with St Thomas More. Remarkable, both of them. True to themselves, and courageous to the end. They never wavered.
@@AM-vq2ol I couldn’t agree with you more. My heart truly aches for Catherine; after 20 years to just be tossed aside like she was a mistake? Again, he was pathological the way he just got rid of people.
He did apparently have some regret about Cromwell ex post facto. The French ambassador, de Marilliac, reported that Henry had complained to him that, "under pretext of some slight offences which he had committed, they had brought several accusations against him, on the strength of which he had put to death the most faithful servant he ever had." Henry also treated Cromwell's son (married to Jane Seymour's sister) with consideration, and made him Baron Cromwell only 5 months after Thomas's execution.
More was brutal in his persecution of protestants, eagerly sending them to their torture and death. He was no saint! @@AM-vq2ol
@@AM-vq2ol La hija de Isabel y de Fernando de España; Catalina, legítima reina de Inglaterra - desde el Reino imperecedero - os da las gracias.
Thank you for your fortitude!
A Man For All Seasons (Al Stewart)
What if you reached the age of reason
Only to find there was no reprieve
Would you still be a man for all seasons?
Or would you just have to leave
We measure our days out
In steps of uncertainty
Not turning to see how we've come
And peer down the highway
From here to eternity
And reach out for love on the run
While the man for all seasons
Is lost behind the sun
Henry Plantagenet still looks for someone
To bring good news in his hour of doubt
While Thomas More waits in the Tower of London
Watching the sands running out
And measures the hours out
From here to oblivion
In actions that can't be undone
A sailor through the darkness
He scans the meridian
And caught by the first rays of dawn
The man for all seasons
Is lost beneath the storm
And I should know by now
I should know by now
I hear them call it out all around
Oh, they go
There's nothing to believe in
Hear them,
Just daydreams, deceiving
They'll just let you down
What if you reached the age of reason
Only to find there was no reprieve
Would you still be a man for all seasons?
Or would you just disbelieve?
We measure our gains out in luck and coincidence
Lanterns to turn back the night
And put our defeats down to chance or experience
And try once again for the light
Some wait for the waters of fortune to cover them
Some just see the tides of ill chance running over them
Some call on Jehovah
Some cry out to Allah
Some wait for the boats that still row to Valhalla
Well, you should try to accept what the fates are unfolding
While some say they're sure where the blame should be falling
You look round for maybe a chance of forestalling
Bot too soon its over and done
And the man for all seasons
Is lost behind the sun
Thank you David for an amazing video once again! Stay amazing.
I really like these deep-dives into specific people or aspects of your domain of expertise.
Thank you!! Excellent insights to More's connections to Henry personally & politically. I could listen to you talk history all day.
I love your history talks -- informed, insightful, enlightening and endlessly rich.
Thanks Dr Starkey. You always bring a new perspective to these famous figures whose stories we've heard so often, ones that make them feel fresh again. And get us thinking.
I'd certainly hate to be in the positions of either Thomas Beckett, John Fisher or Thomas More. Because what dilemmas they faced.
Didn't Henry II make Beckett Archbishop of Canterbury, because he was so sure that his old friend would always side with him? But then, of course, Archbishop Beckett realises that he might be the king's friend, but his Master is actually God. And he can't serve two Masters.
And then looking at the history between Henry VIII and Thomas More. It's not to be wondered at that such as especially egotistical and selfish monarch would assume that More would never say 'no' to him.
But Henry find that there's a rival that he can't win against, and that's God. Thomas More believes that his king wants him to agree to something that goes against God's Will. And he can't do it.
But imagine the fear of knowing that you stand to lose something, whichever way you turn. Say 'no' to the king and you're a traitor which means death. Say 'no' to God and you're a heretic, which means Hell and Damnation.
Brilliant, totally absorbed by the talk great.
I enjoy so much these talks. Thank you, Dr. Starkey. Your expertise and fact-based insight keeps me coming back to listen.
Being the sinple man that I am iv only just come across you. And I've been listening to you all day around work all week. You are my new idol and inspire me to learn more. Thank you for your work
LIKE. Even before the talk starts.
Thankyou David for these wonderful history talks. I look forward to them so much. Please keep them going. Thankyou so much.
Another great talk. Many thanks.
Thank you Dr. Starkey, amazing video, as always. Best regards from NJ, USA.
As always an illuminating discussion.
The Lord Chief Justice says: "if it's an Act of Parliament, it's good enough". Then Dr Starkey says: "a classic position of English Common Law". I hope David will forgive me, but an Act of Parliament is *Statute Law* - a very different animal from English Common Law, which derives from centuries of judicial precedent and basic humanist principles of natural justice - one could even call it "common sense". Indeed, Sir Thomas More could not have been condemned under English Common Law (which was eventually adopted by the United States and countless other jurisdictions around the World). It was *Statute Law* which sent him to his death. Aside from this, yet again a wonderfully insightful account. Many thanks.
I think the point David was making, was that according to common law, there is nothing... within the realm of England, that an act of parliament cannot do/declare. It's a common law position on the power of statute law. I hope that makes sense... and I hope I'm not mis-representing Professor Starkey.
@@dan4lau Absolutely.
I'd love to hear you talk about Cardinal Newman.
David Starkey is such a great historian! I would like to watch more video lectures from other time periods of UK history.
Another first rate video. These are surely the best TV programmes on history there has been. This is the real thing
Absolutely wonderful. History was difficult for me in school, because it was forced upon us to learn dates and the like. This really brings it to life. The pieces of the jigsaw puzzle are falling into place thanks to you. Greetings from New Zealand.
I feel so lucky to have such an opportunity to listen to these wonderful and interesting talks. Thank you so much.
St Thomas More was "cancelled" by Henry . It's the same concept as is being currently applied to those who speak out the truth.
Definitely a parallel there
Excellent Dr Starkey. By the way, I read the other day that "A Man For All Seasons" was John Wayne's favourite film.
Thank you Dr. Starkey.
Great thanks for this, @David Starkey. Brilliant, historical talk on Sir Thomas More here Sir. I have subscribed. Thanks again, Patrick ✨🙏😊
Yes, Thomas More suffered the agony of martyrdom. So did the "heretics", arrested on the orders of More. John Frith being an example of that.
And it was HENRY who was responsible for the deaths of them both.
More was following the faith and was punished for defying Henry.
@@pattierotondo1108Hmm... he was only obeying orders. Not exactly a robust defence.
Happy Feast day, Dr Starkey! Your knowledge is abundant and your gift of sharing a true treasure ❤❤❤ Please do a new video soon!
Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for this analysis and insight.
Wonderful channel thankyou Dr David Starkey I could listen to you all day ❤️
David, thank you so much for taking the time to educate me on history. Continue to do excellent work. I'd be interested in hearing about Oliver Cromwell's life and times.
fantastic speaker. i always loved listening to you and will always subscribe to any places where you speak
Thank you - read Utopia as a school girl - it’s wonderful to have these talks.
Interesting history I didn't know about one of my favorite saints, Thomas More.
Excellent as usual. Thanks
This is great. love history,
David Starkey is brilliant 💫
Dear Dr Starkey-Please forgive this intrusion upon your time. May I begin by saying how very much I enjoy your work.Your style is both erudite and entertaining, and I doff my cap to you sir. It always strikes me as odd that the ecclesiastic policy of King Henry VIII constitutes a complete denial of one of the primary articles of the Magna Carta, namely "that the
English Church shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired". Very odd for a King as patriotic as the eighth Henry to so openly flout so vital an aspect of ancient law. If I may ask, what is your view.
?
I'm so glad I found you. I shall be a binging!
Thank you.
Obviously More was relatively on the side of the law, people and tradition. And he wasn't alienated or marginalised. He was murdered by a criminal tyrant. He's rightly a saint.
I find More's dedication to his faith admiral. Both him and Fisher I believe earned their sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church
My high school was sir Thomas more high school. Catholic of course . Saw the portrait every day when I walked into school. Sparked the beginnings of my love of history
History as practiced by Roman Catholics tends to be extremely biased, partizan and and leans toward indoctrination, I still remember trying to explain the Protestant Reformation and it's antecedents to 3 Roman Catholic children of my former acquaintance and it was almost completely beyond their ability to comprehend.
Apparently the main cause of the Reformation was that Martin Luther wanted to shag a nun, which make me wonder if people like Starkey and peers aren't perhaps wasting their time a bit ?
@shelleygibbons1065 .....I used to admire him until I found out he was a murderer.
i hope david that you had a good new year for 2022 i think this upload is one of your best so far no one i am sure would say that sir thomas more was not brave to go against harry but it is good to know that thomas is a patron saint for children and also for our parliament but our mps have not his good nature or his sense of right most of them dont or cant come close as sir thomas more thanks again for your upload see you soon stay well and safe yours avon leicestershire 2022
Could you please do a video on St. John Fisher
Hello Starkey i do enjoy your videos. Could you make a video about Jeanne D' Arc. Thank you
Were I to have lived in that time I certainly would have been religious. Born in the '50s, though, I could not imagine how anyone could be. Thus, I struggle to understand so much of the past in the context of religion. Thank you, Dr. Starkey, for illuminating this in the case of More - a case I never felt I understood.
I was an atheist for 20 years… never again. Pretty awful time and worse yet, atheism isn’t even true. Praying for you.
@@amysill3815 Truth is obviously not on the side of religion. Truth is indeed often unpleasant and rarely comforting. So...I get it. I do. But spare me the passive-aggressive promise of prayers on my behalf.
@@BlueBaron3339 truth is on the side of Catholicism. You have my prayers anyway. You need them.
@@amysill3815 Well, Amy, if you're right, one day, in the fullness of time, you can say to me, "Told ya so. And, *you're welcome!*" 😄
@@BlueBaron3339 I would just rejoice.
While I admire More for his stand, he was brutal, pitiless and cruel in his pursuit, torture and murder of protestants. He was no saint.
Keep em coming. Love them.
Excellent as usual.
Great video David love your channel
It is inspiring to think of Thomas More as a politician We today are so used to thinking of him in light of his sainthood But of course that way of thinking is hind-sighted When he was still living it was all about politics! It is hard to remember this in light of what our politics has become lately Our politicians adopt the latest fad without a qualm merely to get invited the right parties - while More stood by his principles and accepted condemnation and the block in order to serve God
I greatly enjoy your Videos.
I like to drink beer before and during Mr Starkey's presentations. That way, when I watch again, it's like it's all new. Double value.👍
It is unfathomable how anyone can sanctify the reputation of Thomas More.
This man of "conscience" is very selective and narcissistic as to a personal morality.
He has a direct hand in burning heretics at the stake, he physically abused individuals to get them to recant their non Catholic Christian faith, he burns heretical books, and is an ardent persecutor of the protestant reformation.
His martyrdom cannot be disassociated from his making martyrs of anyone who opposed his own beliefs.
In our time, his fate sounds more like justice prevailed in bringing down a dangerous religious zealot.
It is, as always, a pleasure to listen to Dr Starkey (presume that has not been rescinded) but shall once again begin my comment by suggesting Dr Starkey sit further away from the camera -- it would improve things greatly (see Peter Whittle's programme). Also, the line from the great play is: 'To do the right THING for the wrong reason.'
Love this starkey geezer giving a shout out to cuthbert tunstall!
Brilliant video, as always, from David Starkey. As someone brought up as a member of, The Church of England I am glad that we severed our ties to Rome and Papacy, however, it makes me smile (ruefully) how evil the journey of our ‘split’ was. I understand (better now) More’s role and views to try and prevent this massive change happening …he had no chance ever of ‘winning his battle of words’ in the den of vipers of the Tudor Court. Can anyone imagine arguing any point with scum like Richard Rich and other ;new men’ (of those turbulent times) . it’s like us , in 2024, trying to argue with today’s government. Our views are not heard…always a better argument to silence us.
Really interesting and often revelatory in his field of study. Rarely so outside of it.
Outside of it he is best described as “sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
If Sir Thomas More could speak, I wonder what legal case he would make of today's crisis. The unlimited exercise of Govt power against the most basic rights of the individual is something he knows well about.,
St Thomas died for the Church, it's dogma, doctrine and papal fatherhood. Because someone who disowns their own father is not a true son. We can also call him the resolute opponent of the Revolution. Because all politics is also belief. And all conflict theological.
We disagree on many political things but I love your voice and its a shame your not on TV anymore
It is doubtful that More said "
the king's good servant, but God first" because More was very cautious not to antagonise the king's council, fearing that it could endanger his family (More's).
Is it possible for the tail to wag the dog? One could argue that today the most unlikely has been made possible.
I have a question. As a Catholic, do you believe that England will ever condemn it's split with the True Christian Church?
Perhaps the problem for Moore was the degree to which he was a good 'imitator of Jesus', or not. Am I not correct that Moore had no hesitation in sentencing human beings to be burned alive? If that is correct, where were his 'principles' in those instances? And it is not sufficient to state, "He was a man of his times"; because the 'model' for him was the same as it is for us today.
Dearest David . I’m so disappointed that you reply to members only . I’ve made this clear some months ago. Some of us cannot pay the required amount for membership and so on. Why not select a non members question once a fortnight? Or once a month? I just watched both movies relating to this subject. Becket, Burton was great but O’toole was sensational. And A man of all Seasons. Scofield sublime. I have had very similar thoughts and questions as Rory. And I’m delighted to watch you answering these points of inquiry so fully and with compelling answers and reason. I as many miss your first class historical tv production’s on network TV. And surprised that you have not received offers from National Geographic or Discovery or Sky documentaries to name a few, for your enlightened historical knowledge , honesty , integrity that allows you to entertain us with our very own history. Programs on Becket and or Thomas More would be so informative and delightful. A new perspective regarding your favorite Henry viii? And an in depth program on Richard iii , with regards to the evidence of his brother not being sired by the same father , the Tudor destruction and altering of Richard’s portraits and the hump or not the hump :) finally twins in the tower . Please consider your admirers and the people who respect your opinions and would continue to hear them even though they are not members. I wish you all the best and I hope you can find the time to respond to this comment in the hope that your team passes it on to you. Yours sincerely. Dave in Hamburg
Thank
What was the role of Moore in the ultimate martyrdom of Tyndale . After all you wouldn't want people reading the Bible in the common language would you ?
Henry’s egocentrism must have been as monstrous as the physical man himself : how else can a person with a functioning brain reconcile the manifest contradictions screaming back at you when implementing the exact opposite of what you’ve previously asserted and dragging in and forcing others to do the same shameful turnabouts. Being so egocentric as not feeling any shame in behaving like a spoiled child bent on having its own way no matter the consequences, having no accountability at all. A man at the mercy of his own passions : a slave not a king.
Brilliant
A symbol of the Church over the state or over the monarchy?