It’s fascinating watching your videos today compared with a couple of years ago… If your younger self saw you replacing a motor with a coreless motor, he’d have a heart attack!
haha it sure is! This puny coreless motor isn't my favourite... and a few years back that's all I knew... I've since met some much larger substantial coreless motors though, and those are amazing! :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
The flywheel fitted opposite the drive shaft end could be reinstated by drilling its hole out to 3mm then printing an insert adapter to match the motor's shaft.
That's a cool idea - definitely something to look into in the future! Not a good idea with this setup though, as the new motor doesn't have much torque to spare! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Ever thought of using an IceCube tray to place the small parts in when doing work on the trains? There excellent keeping parts separate and organised with.
Very interesting Sam. You're a genuine magician of model railways indeed, and another one saved here. How odd however that an exceptionally high rate of these faulty motors seem to find their way to H. Have they been procuring and sourcing at under rock bottom cheaping out prices perhaps, or are they just incapable of some decent, at least some basic, controls… Truly baffling and puzzling to say the least.
Agreed. Hornby needs to send a quality rep to China, to examine and ensure that the Chinese motor manufacturer is supplying consistently high quality Chinese motors to go into the Chinese-built locomotives. Isn't there a tech spec that defines the motor's build and performance?? Cleary, the Chinese source for the completed locos is trying to cut costs by sourcing the CHEAPEST possible tiny motors. Perhaps the Chinese company is under price pressure from the lords at Hornby?
Yeah - the variation in quality is crazy from Hornby. At the prices they charge, no excuses whatsoever for not having comprehensive quality control! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
This is all very interesting, and power to your elbow for taking such a technical approach to model railways. For me however, and in no way to diminish what you do, I just want to have a model railway and arguably 'play' trains. Just as I did over 50 years ago. It's one thing to WANT to delve into the technicalities, but it's quite another, totally unacceptable thing, to HAVE to, in order to get the item you have bought, to work properly and be fit for it's intended purpose. From my perspective, the idea that manufactures can claim to have no idea or knowledge of faults, let alone check themselves on a randomised but established protocol basis, is for the birds. More and more, I suspect that it's about what the manufacturers can get away with, rather than be up front in producing a quality product then subsequently acknowledging faults or issues. This is all totally, I repeat, totally unacceptable and yet another example albeit in a small way, of rip-off Britain. It's about time that we should be able to bring class actions against manufacturers, as in the USA and STOP (not remedy after the event) this rip-off normalised state of play. The consumer has a part to play too. EVERY faulty item should be returned and in some way made public. The manufacturers should be holding their collective heads in shame and heads should roll: never mind fuzzy touchy feely self promotional videos of their sub-standard latest releases.
A lot of people Will Not try to get there money back or make an effort to get there money back as there are some people that will just be cranky with the world and everyone in it instead actually addressing the issue at hand and diredting the anger at whomneedsmit most , the makers of the said shonky workings ,, problem is with this is the manufacturer is most of the time unaware if no one reports its problems. Thanks also for the ohms between the commutator bits you tested as I got a royal scot the other day and its got connectivity was fine but forgot how to check the ohms between the segments. I seen you on the telly the other day again. Also good on you for doing what you do as you are very much appreciated in the model train world as we back in the day had no support or train fixers even back in the day... Anyhoo keep the good work and gr8 videos going Sam. Cheers from John in Australia.
The bearings appear to be self aligning bearings. Nothing odd in those. The Comm ring seemed to have some tearing on their leading edges, suggesting some out of round, or raised com segment
Nice job Sam! Your survey was interesting. I guess some of those who responded saying their B12 was OK, may well have problems further down the line(!) since the issue seems to get worse as you use the thing. Glad you rescued your B12, the body was really worth the effort. Hornby have asked me to wait for a new batch of motors to arrive, for my 2 faulty B12's but no ETA. Would be very interested in you experiments with other motor, just in case when Hornby "fix" mine they fail again - ooops should I be more trusting...............
That's possible - the issues weren't apparent straight away, and the loco did seem to be okay initially. So a quick test isn't enough to tell whether they're suffering from the fault. I think it was worth it too - definitely a lovely loco! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
July 2023: Just had this happen with a Hornby R3454 Drysllwyn Castle. Running erratically with a rake of Centenary Coaches. Dismantled and offload the motor was switching between 480 and 680ma (slower on the higher current) and running VERY hot. Bought an x6152 replacement motor from China and it is now running better than when she first arrived. All 6 of my Hornby engines have a similar 5 pole skew wound motor so I will have to keep a watchful eye on them (R2848 Tintagel Castle, R3552 Aberporth Grange, R3864 Knight of St Patrick, R3222 42xx and R3210 28xx) This appears to be a generic problem, with reports of the same fault on the new tooled Hornby 5101 large Prairie as well......
Hi Sam, Firstly, thank you greatly for the videos you have made on model locomotives. I’m a long-time viewer, and they’ve been extremely interesting and helpful. I recently purchased a Hatton’s B12 in the sale and haven’t had much chance to run it in yet but I’ve seen similar symptoms in it. It’s great to see that your test with using a coreless motor has been successful. One thing which I had considered before you made this video was to see if I might be able to use a Taff Vale or Mashima motor (which have the same standard dimensions and are easy to find as well as being 5-pole) and 3D-print a new motor mount like you have. I think I am unlikely to go ahead with this and instead will see if I can return mine, but I recommend that you explore the use of these companies’ motors in models in future, mostly because they share dimensions. I look forward to your next video (on whatever model or topic)!
hi sam i had a faulty B12 i have fitted a motor from taff vale you can fit the fly wheel on got to make sure you get the 2mm shaft motor ,haven't got a 3d printer so secured mine with Velcro bit of a bodge but it works ok even at a crawl but a little noisy
hi sam.. as of yet i have not heard of any call back from hornby on the B12s...a nice fix at least its running.. as you said it needs finding a better motor and no doubt there is one out there that would be perfect for it.
Hello Sam ,Have you looked at the Hornby x6442 motor that Barrie Davis raves about .Wonder if this motor could Be made to fix the b12 . Just a thought .
I wonder when the Hornby motors were produced and if they were from the same supplier that Rapido, Bowser, and Intermountain used around 2018-2019. At that time, those manufacturers experienced a rash of faulty motors in their products. Rapido even posted a TH-cam video about the issue. I recently bought one of the affected models (a Montreal Locmotive Works RS-18 by Rapido) and sent it in for warranty work as the motor was dying. From what I've read all three companies have been good about motor replacements and found another vendor.
That's an interesting question - not sure what motor those other manufacturers had problems with, but I'd be fascinated to know if it's the same one! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam, Yep a video group test of motors to find the perfect one would be great, and of course there is a video in comparing different sizes of flywheel and what they do to the performance.
Good job Sam - an interesting video reminding me of the trouble I once had with my Wrenn Duchess which would overheat and eventually come to a stop while cooking quietly. I there was excess humidity in the armature - a short stay in the oven on a low heat, followed by a coat of varnish and it was right as rain. Perhaps it was my imagination, but is the chassis sticking a little at lower speed? It might be worth checking that the valve gear runs freely and that the wheels are correctly aligned / quartered. I remember by old B12 used to rock violently from side to side until the wheels were quartered properly.
@@SamsTrains No it is designed to move in a peculiar way to self align the armature of the motor to keep binding down. big motors do the same thing 500 to 1100 horsepower motors .
I don't know the size difference between the drive shaft and flywheel but I once had success fitting a flywheel that had an oversize shaft hole. I used Loctite Red threadlock which filled the gap and unlike superglue it doesn't set instantly. I span the motor slowly and the flywheel seems to have self centered on the shaft. It's been in use for about six years and as long as it's not run flat out it works fine. At speed it does vibrate a little I didn't get the balance spot on but it's a trip diesel and never breaks a scale 20mph.
Hi Sam grate video, I have a suggestion to as what could have been wrong with the original motor. When you showed the rear bearing it looks like the plastic around it had melted, I'm wondering if the motor shaft was binding on the bearing which caused it to run hot as it did so the bearing expanded because of the heat which then seized on to the shaft. When this happend the bearing started to rotate in the plastic housing this would account for the slow running lack of power and high current draw. And this could be a common fault with this loco. Hope this makes sense.
Fantastic work Sam, I really like this I'm changing my old dead Triang motors with 6 pole motors from Ali Express (Minebea SE15HOSLTP 15*15MM Square) under $7 CAN(£5) a Jinty and Hornby R255 0-4-0 which in now one of my best shunters. more motor swap videos please :)
I really enjoy this video really informative and interesting. I do not believe what Hornby says they had to know about the motors being bad because they were in the S15s and other engines that have the same problems. I have been watching other videos with hobbyists who have trouble shooting these engines.
Good video here Sam. At least you saved the loco from the evil Scrapman! Lol. Pity about having to omit the flywheels and that coreless motors can't cope with feedback controllers, which would have solved the struggle up Gordon's Hill. But at least it works now. Best, Pete.
haha thanks Pete - yeah it's a pity about the flywheels, but at least it's working again now... and I'm planning another video on this to make it even better :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I Sam since watching this I suddenly realise I have a B12 too, the same version you were disecting! It's running ok, for now although the top of the boiler is noticeably warm and theres a distinct electrical burnt aroma coming off it. I suspect the motor is getting ready to self destruct, do I approach Hornby to get a replacement in the hope that will be ok going forward? I dont fancy a coreless! Any suggestions? Cheers
Also sam where do you get little screw box with the tiny screws in it from ormthe brand of them please as i keen to buy some... Cheers from John in Australia
I did wonder at first if the "floating" bearing was a design feature to allow it to find its correct alignment, but then I saw the second bearing. Looks like they were just melting the plastic in the hope that the bearing would be located accurately. Shame really, because the motor actually has some good features.
It could well be Roger - I don't see it causing a major problem either. I think I may have damaged the plastic during the removal of the flywheels and desoldering of the wires... don't think it was melted like that originally! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam, thanks for this video. I bought one of these B12s from Hattons in the £99 Sale. It’s a beautiful engine. I don’t want to send it back. I’ve been running it in gently and no problems so far. I wish Hornby supplied a replacement motor at a reasonable price. I think the motor is X7083. According to Peter’s Spares, the RRP is £40.18 (out of stock). That is a lot of money for a motor, and it could still be faulty. If you can find a solution or affordable replacement, that would be greatly appreciated.
you know sam I got that same model 2 years ago for 129p and I got it for my birthday and I was very excited because I liked the B12s and after 2 weeks it died like 100% dead and it derailed constantly during that time so I'm happy to see that the issue has been talked about but mine is at the back of my shed slowly collecting dust I do hope to fix her someday and the same thing happened with my patriot class, but it sparks rather badly so i don't run it for safety, so yea i don't have a good streak with Hornby tender engines
That's true - but it's much harder with the Bachmann Thomas engines as the motors are enclosed within the eye/gear mechanism - maybe one day I'll attempt it though! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam your videos are always very well presented, interesting and entertaining to watch unlike 99.9 percent of all the other rubbish on here. Keep up the good work mate👍🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Hi Sam, Brilliant work there! Thanks for the shout outs. You have taken the hobby to a new place with this as it unbinds us from shoddy supplied motors. I noticed the B12 was slipping a bit, I wonder if somethings is stiff with the tender or bogie wheels? Coreless motors really need high gears to succeed, they were designed to run fast and so the gears are needed for power. I am wondering if one of my AliExpress motors could be made to fit, same front shaft and room for a flywheel on the back. Do you want me to send you one to try? Great stuff Sam
Hey Mike - this video is a little out of date already - there's another one to follow and it uses a larger and more substantial coreless motor (the one I sent you a video of) - this brought the loco to the same running standard as the original motor (when working properly!) video on the way soon! :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam, back when you did your video on the Tangmere Hornby pacific you mentioned having to replace a cracked driver gear. Where did you find that gear and is it a standard Hornby spare? I need to replace mine so any info you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Given that this is a common problem have you considered trying testing a 3D printed gear as a replacement? I wonder whether it could take the torque? At any rate it would be a good test for your 3D printer.
I have tonnes of spare parts from scrapped locos, so pretty sure I just found one in my stores... but it's a very standard gear, many many Hornby locos use it, including all of their loco driven engines from that era, so they are quite easy to find! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Well if you have a gear off the drivers from an post-2011 early Hornby Bulleid light pacific you want to sell me let me know. Hornby says they have lost the mold so those parts are not available.
Having to repair a brand new locomotive is not what we want from high end manufacturers. I understand the autopsy video, and it is great to see the results, but I would highly recommend anyone else with a faulty to just take it back as the more that go back faulty, the more likely the fault will be rectified. Well, that is the hope anyway. I know model railway people often like to tinker, but a faulty new loco is still unacceptable. In regards to the brushes, it is not uncommon to have copper impregnated carbon to help the brushes last longer. They are rarely pure carbon. Thanks for the tear down, Sam. It is nice to see what the issues are.
With the flywheels and the dodgy bearings inside the motors must have been rotating of balance. When you did the review of the loco, I noticed the flywheels had dents or drill holes on the outside. Which makes me think was this causing the drive shaft of the motor to move in an irregular rotation? I nice little MOD with the coreless motor though I think a three pole would have worked better for better low speeds to near crawl movements, but well-done Sam as a fix for these and sharing it with us.
Those are marks where it's been dynamically balanced, a sign of quality. The cheap motor quality probably can't handle the centrifugal forces of the large flywheels.
Hi Sam great video was thinking of getting one to replace my older b12 from hornby. Some questions for you now will we be expecting a updated collection video this year as you’ve got more locos since 2020, my other question is do you know where to get hornby mk1 bogies also what is your favourite loco. Cheers Guy :)
Decent video there Sam, I will admit my Rapido APT-e has had the speed up and slowing down issue but I have run the model a lot since I got it and it does seem to have improved over time and now today I feel confident saying that the issue my APT-e has reduced and could even have been down to something else, maybe a bit of tightness in the mechanisms in each power car which with constant running has made the mechanisms more free and easy to move.
Ahh that can't be good - do keep an eye on it, and be sure to return it before the warranty expires if you suspect there's a fault... awful lot of money to waste otherwise!! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
It can be better on the high speed but its acceptable instead of having a slow locomotive...the motor can be better but i understand the effort for now...But as always another great video Sam. Cheers mate and have a good one!
At the continuing risk of tempting fate, my identical model is so far running okay. I do think it could be significant that this model dates from a similar time to the S15. While Hornby still seems to be having quality problems (such as Sam's but not my early Hush Hush loco), I am hoping that Hornby had a duff batch of motors only around the time these were made (circa 2015). I live in hope, ever the optimist in this regard!
Litle bit of a shame that the flywheel had to go. Maybe it is possible to get a premade flywheel that fits the new motor shaft? It would be interesting to see if it gets the performance close to what it was supposed to be
Hi Sam, Hornby do know about this problem, when rang them a month ago the guy I spoke too admitted it but said the problem was resolved and they had new motors. sent my B12 off for a new motor and guess what when it came back, failed after an hours running
That's very interesting - you're not the first one to say something like this. Here's a direct quote from an email I received from Hornby on 30th march this year: "no inherent fault with the motor has come to light to date" Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains It's been back to Hornby 4 times, I've given up with them. Plus I've had a Pendolino go back twice, wires not soldered to the boggie, Steady aim ripped it's self apart, Coronation, cog on the drive wheel worked loose. Francis Drake (same motor) failed. getting p*ssed off with Hornby's Quality control
Thanks Robin - yes it's still a little underpowered - I'm developing this idea even further - another video to follow soon! :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Obviously Hornby and agents do not test their products before releasing in the market? Which locos do you think are best for crawl with he best torque ? Worth another video methinks ?
The brush should not have fallen apart. Maybe that was the fault? I had this happen with a Wrenn Brighton Belle. I fitted new brushes and it now runs fine. Maybe you replaced the whole motor when you didn't need to!
As far as I know, Hornby is the only offender in OO scale when it comes to faulty motors. It does not surprise me when you said it is the same motor as the S15. Hope I would be able to do like you with my S15. Or maybe, someone would produce an upgrade kit for replacing this motor.
Unfortunately, both Sam and I can confirm that Oxford Rail have had faulty motors in the early Dean Goods and also some of the Adams' Radials. Some Dapol engines also have had dubious motors (e.g. in Sam's favourite liveried loco). Am I wrong Sam?
Nothing wrong with the brushes, it is common for metals to be included, in particular copper, to extend the life of the brush. The cause of the failures is clear at at 8:57, the bearing has been spinning in the plastic housing, melting the plastic and throwing the motor armature out of alignment causing binding and friction. Shame because the motor looks like a quality design, but poor quality construction. A blob of superglue would have fixed that. I also hate coreless motors. They are gutless, and as you have seen, have very low torque, particularly noticeable at low speed. As you said, you would have been better replacing it with a decent 5 pole motor.
Yes it’s a quality design, that’s for sure! But the melting was caused by my soldering iron when removing the wires... the bearings probably were the problem, but they didn’t melt the plastic! And there are coreless motors and coreless motors - the one I've used here was gutless, but many are not! Next time I'm trying a larger and more substantial one, and you'll see it's far from gutless! :D Cheers, Sam :)
Yeah sorry Kelly - that was my mistake! We're having new internet fitted, so I was stuck on my phone and posted the wrong link by mistake... should be all finished and back to normal tomorrow! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
A while ago, Sam made a video using motors bought on Ebay for a fraction of the price of the official motors. Assuming they were available, which they are not, the official motor with its flywheels for the B12 now costs at least £37 from Peter's Spares or £40 from Hornby. Ouch!
Very much so - an absolutely absurd ripoff on Hornby's part there... I paid less than £5 each for the same (but not faulty) motor... possibly quite a lot less! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
there should be replacement motors with the right dimensions to fit as a straight swap.......shouldn't cost that much either....obviously the motors that you've got are a bit "weak" for this size engine, but would be ok in a small tank engine 0-4-0 or 0-6-0......interesting though....
Hi Sam, thanks for the video! Question, have you lost much mass weight with the flywheels? Could that be added some other way to improve the performance you saw up Gordon's Hill or do you reckon it is what it is? Very interesting tear down, really enjoy this style of content from you! PS: sorry if you answered that question in the vid or comments and I've missed it! :)
Yes quite a lot Alex - I believe the flywheels are 10g each, so yes that's very substantial! Once everything's finished, it would be worth looking to add some weight back again! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
It’s fascinating watching your videos today compared with a couple of years ago…
If your younger self saw you replacing a motor with a coreless motor, he’d have a heart attack!
haha it sure is! This puny coreless motor isn't my favourite... and a few years back that's all I knew... I've since met some much larger substantial coreless motors though, and those are amazing! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Very competent work there Sam. Engine replacements these days much simpler than 30 years ago. Keep up with the videos, like a breath of fresh air.
The flywheel fitted opposite the drive shaft end could be reinstated by drilling its hole out to 3mm then printing an insert adapter to match the motor's shaft.
That's a cool idea - definitely something to look into in the future! Not a good idea with this setup though, as the new motor doesn't have much torque to spare!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Ever thought of using an IceCube tray to place the small parts in when doing work on the trains? There excellent keeping parts separate and organised with.
😂 I think Sam building a new layout that's not on the floor will happen before that
That sounds like a great tip - thanks for that! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Another alternative is a magnetic tray, very handy when trying to keep hold of tiny screws/nuts/bolts
Very interesting Sam. You're a genuine magician of model railways indeed, and another one saved here. How odd however that an exceptionally high rate of these faulty motors seem to find their way to H. Have they been procuring and sourcing at under rock bottom cheaping out prices perhaps, or are they just incapable of some decent, at least some basic, controls… Truly baffling and puzzling to say the least.
Agreed. Hornby needs to send a quality rep to China, to examine and ensure that the Chinese motor manufacturer is supplying consistently high quality Chinese motors to go into the Chinese-built locomotives. Isn't there a tech spec that defines the motor's build and performance?? Cleary, the Chinese source for the completed locos is trying to cut costs by sourcing the CHEAPEST possible tiny motors. Perhaps the Chinese company is under price pressure from the lords at Hornby?
Yeah - the variation in quality is crazy from Hornby. At the prices they charge, no excuses whatsoever for not having comprehensive quality control!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
This is all very interesting, and power to your elbow for taking such a technical approach to model railways. For me however, and in no way to diminish what you do, I just want to have a model railway and arguably 'play' trains. Just as I did over 50 years ago. It's one thing to WANT to delve into the technicalities, but it's quite another, totally unacceptable thing, to HAVE to, in order to get the item you have bought, to work properly and be fit for it's intended purpose. From my perspective, the idea that manufactures can claim to have no idea or knowledge of faults, let alone check themselves on a randomised but established protocol basis, is for the birds. More and more, I suspect that it's about what the manufacturers can get away with, rather than be up front in producing a quality product then subsequently acknowledging faults or issues. This is all totally, I repeat, totally unacceptable and yet another example albeit in a small way, of rip-off Britain. It's about time that we should be able to bring class actions against manufacturers, as in the USA and STOP (not remedy after the event) this rip-off normalised state of play. The consumer has a part to play too. EVERY faulty item should be returned and in some way made public. The manufacturers should be holding their collective heads in shame and heads should roll: never mind fuzzy touchy feely self promotional videos of their sub-standard latest releases.
Genius Sam...well done. Glad to see you got that lovely loco working again. All the best.
A lot of people Will Not try to get there money back or make an effort to get there money back as there are some people that will just be cranky with the world and everyone in it instead actually addressing the issue at hand and diredting the anger at whomneedsmit most , the makers of the said shonky workings ,, problem is with this is the manufacturer is most of the time unaware if no one reports its problems.
Thanks also for the ohms between the commutator bits you tested as I got a royal scot the other day and its got connectivity was fine but forgot how to check the ohms between the segments.
I seen you on the telly the other day again.
Also good on you for doing what you do as you are very much appreciated in the model train world as we back in the day had no support or train fixers even back in the day...
Anyhoo keep the good work and gr8 videos going Sam.
Cheers from John in Australia.
Brilliant piece of model engineering. Lucky you have 3D Printing at your disposal.
I did see anotyer one that had a faulty decoder socket. Yours was definitely the motor, but some do have bad sockets.
Yes that's true - I had to rewire my LNER green B12 socket for exactly that reason !
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
The bearings appear to be self aligning bearings. Nothing odd in those. The Comm ring seemed to have some tearing on their leading edges, suggesting some out of round, or raised com segment
Great work of repairing the faulty B12 Sam 👍👍 it frustrating to buy a new exciting model to talk home until it running it starting to have issues.
Nice job Sam! Your survey was interesting. I guess some of those who responded saying their B12 was OK, may well have problems further down the line(!) since the issue seems to get worse as you use the thing. Glad you rescued your B12, the body was really worth the effort. Hornby have asked me to wait for a new batch of motors to arrive, for my 2 faulty B12's but no ETA. Would be very interested in you experiments with other motor, just in case when Hornby "fix" mine they fail again - ooops should I be more trusting...............
That's possible - the issues weren't apparent straight away, and the loco did seem to be okay initially. So a quick test isn't enough to tell whether they're suffering from the fault. I think it was worth it too - definitely a lovely loco!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
July 2023: Just had this happen with a Hornby R3454 Drysllwyn Castle. Running erratically with a rake of Centenary Coaches. Dismantled and offload the motor was switching between 480 and 680ma (slower on the higher current) and running VERY hot. Bought an x6152 replacement motor from China and it is now running better than when she first arrived.
All 6 of my Hornby engines have a similar 5 pole skew wound motor so I will have to keep a watchful eye on them (R2848 Tintagel Castle, R3552 Aberporth Grange, R3864 Knight of St Patrick, R3222 42xx and R3210 28xx)
This appears to be a generic problem, with reports of the same fault on the new tooled Hornby 5101 large Prairie as well......
Hi Sam,
Firstly, thank you greatly for the videos you have made on model locomotives. I’m a long-time viewer, and they’ve been extremely interesting and helpful. I recently purchased a Hatton’s B12 in the sale and haven’t had much chance to run it in yet but I’ve seen similar symptoms in it. It’s great to see that your test with using a coreless motor has been successful. One thing which I had considered before you made this video was to see if I might be able to use a Taff Vale or Mashima motor (which have the same standard dimensions and are easy to find as well as being 5-pole) and 3D-print a new motor mount like you have. I think I am unlikely to go ahead with this and instead will see if I can return mine, but I recommend that you explore the use of these companies’ motors in models in future, mostly because they share dimensions. I look forward to your next video (on whatever model or topic)!
Nice job Sam, excellent engineering
My 60 year old Triang B12 is still going strong. Enough said! 🚂😁😎.
Wow great discovery Sam
Cheers Jasper & Willow
Thank you!! :D
hi sam i had a faulty B12 i have fitted a motor from taff vale you can fit the fly wheel on got to make sure you get the 2mm shaft motor ,haven't got a 3d printer so secured mine with Velcro bit of a bodge but it works ok even at a crawl but a little noisy
Great video! More of this please!
hi sam.. as of yet i have not heard of any call back from hornby on the B12s...a nice fix at least its running.. as you said it needs finding a better motor and no doubt there is one out there that would be perfect for it.
Hello Sam ,Have you looked at the Hornby x6442 motor that Barrie Davis raves about .Wonder if this motor could Be made to fix the b12 . Just a thought .
I wonder when the Hornby motors were produced and if they were from the same supplier that Rapido, Bowser, and Intermountain used around 2018-2019. At that time, those manufacturers experienced a rash of faulty motors in their products. Rapido even posted a TH-cam video about the issue. I recently bought one of the affected models (a Montreal Locmotive Works RS-18 by Rapido) and sent it in for warranty work as the motor was dying. From what I've read all three companies have been good about motor replacements and found another vendor.
That's an interesting question - not sure what motor those other manufacturers had problems with, but I'd be fascinated to know if it's the same one!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam,
Yep a video group test of motors to find the perfect one would be great, and of course there is a video in comparing different sizes of flywheel and what they do to the performance.
Definitely! This isn't the end - another video in the works already!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Good job Sam - an interesting video reminding me of the trouble I once had with my Wrenn Duchess which would overheat and eventually come to a stop while cooking quietly. I there was excess humidity in the armature - a short stay in the oven on a low heat, followed by a coat of varnish and it was right as rain.
Perhaps it was my imagination, but is the chassis sticking a little at lower speed? It might be worth checking that the valve gear runs freely and that the wheels are correctly aligned / quartered. I remember by old B12 used to rock violently from side to side until the wheels were quartered properly.
The bearings move For shelf alinement of the rotor to keep them from binding .
Thanks Mat - yeah I can't see that movement really causing much of a problem!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains No it is designed to move in a peculiar way to self align the armature of the motor to keep binding down.
big motors do the same thing 500 to 1100 horsepower motors .
I don't know the size difference between the drive shaft and flywheel but I once had success fitting a flywheel that had an oversize shaft hole. I used Loctite Red threadlock which filled the gap and unlike superglue it doesn't set instantly. I span the motor slowly and the flywheel seems to have self centered on the shaft. It's been in use for about six years and as long as it's not run flat out it works fine. At speed it does vibrate a little I didn't get the balance spot on but it's a trip diesel and never breaks a scale 20mph.
Hi Sam grate video, I have a suggestion to as what could have been wrong with the original motor. When you showed the rear bearing it looks like the plastic around it had melted, I'm wondering if the motor shaft was binding on the bearing which caused it to run hot as it did so the bearing expanded because of the heat which then seized on to the shaft. When this happend the bearing started to rotate in the plastic housing this would account for the slow running lack of power and high current draw. And this could be a common fault with this loco. Hope this makes sense.
Fantastic work Sam, I really like this I'm changing my old dead Triang motors with 6 pole motors from Ali Express
(Minebea SE15HOSLTP 15*15MM Square) under $7 CAN(£5) a Jinty and Hornby R255 0-4-0 which in now one of my best shunters.
more motor swap videos please :)
I really enjoy this video really informative and interesting. I do not believe what Hornby says they had to know about the motors being bad because they were in the S15s and other engines that have the same problems. I have been watching other videos with hobbyists who have trouble shooting these engines.
Good video here Sam. At least you saved the loco from the evil Scrapman! Lol. Pity about having to omit the flywheels and that coreless motors can't cope with feedback controllers, which would have solved the struggle up Gordon's Hill. But at least it works now. Best, Pete.
haha thanks Pete - yeah it's a pity about the flywheels, but at least it's working again now... and I'm planning another video on this to make it even better :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I Sam since watching this I suddenly realise I have a B12 too, the same version you were disecting! It's running ok, for now although the top of the boiler is noticeably warm and theres a distinct electrical burnt aroma coming off it. I suspect the motor is getting ready to self destruct, do I approach Hornby to get a replacement in the hope that will be ok going forward? I dont fancy a coreless! Any suggestions? Cheers
Hi sam I hope you're ok
Nice to see this loco work better then before
Great video Sam. Looking forward to see how you improve the loco further.
Thanks Paddy - more coming soon! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I must send you some of mine to fix as I am totally useless when it comes to maintaining my models 😁keep up the good work Sam👍
Great video Sam! Hornby replaced my D16, it works fine now! :D
Ahh that's great news - all's well that ends well then :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Haha I wish - my experience of Hornby has been Dire!
Love to watch these repairing videos .
Very Good Sam - your very clever at doing these type of things!!! 🤔🚂🚂🚂
Also sam where do you get little screw box with the tiny screws in it from ormthe brand of them please as i keen to buy some...
Cheers from John in Australia
Hey San can you do an experiment try brushless motors
I did wonder at first if the "floating" bearing was a design feature to allow it to find its correct alignment, but then I saw the second bearing. Looks like they were just melting the plastic in the hope that the bearing would be located accurately. Shame really, because the motor actually has some good features.
It could well be Roger - I don't see it causing a major problem either. I think I may have damaged the plastic during the removal of the flywheels and desoldering of the wires... don't think it was melted like that originally!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Those bearings look to be ball shaped, so that movement would be fine.
Great stuff Sammy!!
I got one for my birthday and I noticed early er today that it would slow down at a section of my track but then seep up and repeat
Hi Sam, thanks for this video. I bought one of these B12s from Hattons in the £99 Sale. It’s a beautiful engine. I don’t want to send it back. I’ve been running it in gently and no problems so far. I wish Hornby supplied a replacement motor at a reasonable price. I think the motor is X7083. According to Peter’s Spares, the RRP is £40.18 (out of stock). That is a lot of money for a motor, and it could still be faulty. If you can find a solution or affordable replacement, that would be greatly appreciated.
Yes it’s a ludicrous price to pay for a motor - especially when the same ones were available on eBay for a couple of pounds!
you know sam I got that same model 2 years ago for 129p and I got it for my birthday and I was very excited because I liked the B12s and after 2 weeks it died like 100% dead and it derailed constantly during that time so I'm happy to see that the issue has been talked about but mine is at the back of my shed slowly collecting dust I do hope to fix her someday and the same thing happened with my patriot class, but it sparks rather badly so i don't run it for safety, so yea i don't have a good streak with Hornby tender engines
You mentioned a while back that a lot of your Thomas locos were dead, maybe you can use those to experiment with other replacement motors?
That's true - but it's much harder with the Bachmann Thomas engines as the motors are enclosed within the eye/gear mechanism - maybe one day I'll attempt it though!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam your videos are always very well presented, interesting and entertaining to watch unlike 99.9 percent of all the other rubbish on here. Keep up the good work mate👍🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Thanks so much Todd, that's very nice to read! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam, Brilliant work there! Thanks for the shout outs. You have taken the hobby to a new place with this as it unbinds us from shoddy supplied motors. I noticed the B12 was slipping a bit, I wonder if somethings is stiff with the tender or bogie wheels? Coreless motors really need high gears to succeed, they were designed to run fast and so the gears are needed for power. I am wondering if one of my AliExpress motors could be made to fit, same front shaft and room for a flywheel on the back. Do you want me to send you one to try? Great stuff Sam
Hey Mike - this video is a little out of date already - there's another one to follow and it uses a larger and more substantial coreless motor (the one I sent you a video of) - this brought the loco to the same running standard as the original motor (when working properly!) video on the way soon! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains ah excellent can't wait
Sam, one question, WHERE IS THE SURGICAL MASK AND MEDICAL AUOPSY DIALOUGE ANNOUNCING THE TIME AND AUTOPSY NUMBER
Sam, back when you did your video on the Tangmere Hornby pacific you mentioned having to replace a cracked driver gear. Where did you find that gear and is it a standard Hornby spare? I need to replace mine so any info you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Given that this is a common problem have you considered trying testing a 3D printed gear as a replacement? I wonder whether it could take the torque? At any rate it would be a good test for your 3D printer.
I have tonnes of spare parts from scrapped locos, so pretty sure I just found one in my stores... but it's a very standard gear, many many Hornby locos use it, including all of their loco driven engines from that era, so they are quite easy to find!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Well if you have a gear off the drivers from an post-2011 early Hornby Bulleid light pacific you want to sell me let me know. Hornby says they have lost the mold so those parts are not available.
Sam, you haven't linked to Mike's Video. Also, put it in the description as well.
Just an idea, you could take a motor from an old loco, maybe an eBay bargain lema for example.
Having to repair a brand new locomotive is not what we want from high end manufacturers. I understand the autopsy video, and it is great to see the results, but I would highly recommend anyone else with a faulty to just take it back as the more that go back faulty, the more likely the fault will be rectified. Well, that is the hope anyway.
I know model railway people often like to tinker, but a faulty new loco is still unacceptable.
In regards to the brushes, it is not uncommon to have copper impregnated carbon to help the brushes last longer. They are rarely pure carbon. Thanks for the tear down, Sam. It is nice to see what the issues are.
With the flywheels and the dodgy bearings inside the motors must have been rotating of balance. When you did the review of the loco, I noticed the flywheels had dents or drill holes on the outside. Which makes me think was this causing the drive shaft of the motor to move in an irregular rotation? I nice little MOD with the coreless motor though I think a three pole would have worked better for better low speeds to near crawl movements, but well-done Sam as a fix for these and sharing it with us.
Those are marks where it's been dynamically balanced, a sign of quality. The cheap motor quality probably can't handle the centrifugal forces of the large flywheels.
The quartering seems slightly off as well on the rear drivers, you can see the rod flexing when you do the test.
Hi Sam great video was thinking of getting one to replace my older b12 from hornby. Some questions for you now will we be expecting a updated collection video this year as you’ve got more locos since 2020, my other question is do you know where to get hornby mk1 bogies also what is your favourite loco. Cheers Guy :)
Hi Sam, Very good repair , (if life was that easy on every engine ) nice one, next please, All the best Brian 😃
Thanks Brian! Yes thank goodness this is a serviceable model... It'd be going back if it were a Heljan!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Decent video there Sam, I will admit my Rapido APT-e has had the speed up and slowing down issue but I have run the model a lot since I got it and it does seem to have improved over time and now today I feel confident saying that the issue my APT-e has reduced and could even have been down to something else, maybe a bit of tightness in the mechanisms in each power car which with constant running has made the mechanisms more free and easy to move.
Ahh that can't be good - do keep an eye on it, and be sure to return it before the warranty expires if you suspect there's a fault... awful lot of money to waste otherwise!!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
It can be better on the high speed but its acceptable instead of having a slow locomotive...the motor can be better but i understand the effort for now...But as always another great video Sam. Cheers mate and have a good one!
At the continuing risk of tempting fate, my identical model is so far running okay. I do think it could be significant that this model dates from a similar time to the S15. While Hornby still seems to be having quality problems (such as Sam's but not my early Hush Hush loco), I am hoping that Hornby had a duff batch of motors only around the time these were made (circa 2015). I live in hope, ever the optimist in this regard!
Very interesting, Sam. Greetings from Ohio.
Litle bit of a shame that the flywheel had to go. Maybe it is possible to get a premade flywheel that fits the new motor shaft? It would be interesting to see if it gets the performance close to what it was supposed to be
I can see Model Train Autopsy being a new series for your channel, and do it with the same principle as Salvage Or Scrap, as well, perhaps?
Hi Sam, Hornby do know about this problem, when rang them a month ago the guy I spoke too admitted it but said the problem was resolved and they had new motors. sent my B12 off for a new motor and guess what when it came back, failed after an hours running
That's very interesting - you're not the first one to say something like this. Here's a direct quote from an email I received from Hornby on 30th march this year: "no inherent fault with the motor has come to light to date"
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains It's been back to Hornby 4 times, I've given up with them. Plus I've had a Pendolino go back twice, wires not soldered to the boggie, Steady aim ripped it's self apart, Coronation, cog on the drive wheel worked loose. Francis Drake (same motor) failed. getting p*ssed off with Hornby's Quality control
Frankly, I'm glad your motors have been faulty. This is turning into a very interesting series.
haha true! The best videos come from disasters! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Would you consider making kits to solve our dead B12's?
i think its the copper thats getting on the brush which is making the shine happen
Awesome video today Sam very interesting what is wrong with the b12
Keep up The Good Work
Nice Job Repairing That B12 There
Thank you!! :D
Nice fix thought that motor is a bit under powered by the look of things. Look forward to seeing what better alternatives you find.
Thanks Robin - yes it's still a little underpowered - I'm developing this idea even further - another video to follow soon! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS SAM😍😍😍😍😍
Well done Sam, really good video 👍🏻
Obviously Hornby and agents do not test their products before releasing in the market? Which locos do you think are best for crawl with he best torque ? Worth another video methinks ?
Good one, Sam. How did we ever manage before printers? I can't imagine being without one now. Cheers, Dan.
Triang motors were built to last unlike hornby ones,no problems in the 60s
The brush should not have fallen apart. Maybe that was the fault? I had this happen with a Wrenn Brighton Belle. I fitted new brushes and it now runs fine. Maybe you replaced the whole motor when you didn't need to!
I can't find the video you linked, any chance you can put it in your description please?
Sorry Brandon! The video is now linked in the cards!
As far as I know, Hornby is the only offender in OO scale when it comes to faulty motors. It does not surprise me when you said it is the same motor as the S15. Hope I would be able to do like you with my S15. Or maybe, someone would produce an upgrade kit for replacing this motor.
Unfortunately, both Sam and I can confirm that Oxford Rail have had faulty motors in the early Dean Goods and also some of the Adams' Radials. Some Dapol engines also have had dubious motors (e.g. in Sam's favourite liveried loco). Am I wrong Sam?
I've been waiting for this!
haha hope you enjoy it! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains i always enjoy your content, thanks Sam.
Very commendable.
Nothing wrong with the brushes, it is common for metals to be included, in particular copper, to extend the life of the brush. The cause of the failures is clear at at 8:57, the bearing has been spinning in the plastic housing, melting the plastic and throwing the motor armature out of alignment causing binding and friction. Shame because the motor looks like a quality design, but poor quality construction. A blob of superglue would have fixed that.
I also hate coreless motors. They are gutless, and as you have seen, have very low torque, particularly noticeable at low speed. As you said, you would have been better replacing it with a decent 5 pole motor.
Yes it’s a quality design, that’s for sure! But the melting was caused by my soldering iron when removing the wires... the bearings probably were the problem, but they didn’t melt the plastic!
And there are coreless motors and coreless motors - the one I've used here was gutless, but many are not! Next time I'm trying a larger and more substantial one, and you'll see it's far from gutless! :D
Cheers,
Sam :)
Let's hope this video explains why also my B12 doesn't work well :( (even if it's an older model from Hornby)...
Could you put that motor in the tender?
You know, I have the feeling that's why I'll stick more to the rolling stock and Skaledale items.
hola buenas tardes excelente video quedo muy bien la locomotora muy buen trabajo abrazo grande
I think that's the same motor the S15 has witch also had motor problems!
Your early access video was a no-show. Why was that? Glad you got the B12 running.
Nope, it was posted! And thank you! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Awesome video Sam's trains
Thanks Brian! :D
@@SamsTrains you're welcome
good job
i build fine scale kits no longer use any hornby motors unless i can get the older can style i use japanese motors in most my builds now
Ok doc, first things first, don't lose any parts or small pieces
Yes, I found the post, but it was marked as "private" and wouldn't play. Any reason why?
Yeah sorry Kelly - that was my mistake! We're having new internet fitted, so I was stuck on my phone and posted the wrong link by mistake... should be all finished and back to normal tomorrow!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam is there a world's record for the fastest model
Train. Or longest train.
A while ago, Sam made a video using motors bought on Ebay for a fraction of the price of the official motors. Assuming they were available, which they are not, the official motor with its flywheels for the B12 now costs at least £37 from Peter's Spares or £40 from Hornby. Ouch!
Very much so - an absolutely absurd ripoff on Hornby's part there... I paid less than £5 each for the same (but not faulty) motor... possibly quite a lot less!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
What kind of corless motor was this like what kind of size
13:51 i think that that's going to overheat
Maybe you could reuse the flywheels with several layers of heat shrink?
there should be replacement motors with the right dimensions to fit as a straight swap.......shouldn't cost that much either....obviously the motors that you've got are a bit "weak" for this size engine, but would be ok in a small tank engine 0-4-0 or 0-6-0......interesting though....
Hey it works . And a lot better than it did .
I could have sworn I saw some motors on Ali express that look exactly like the Hornby you replaced, possibly a direct drop for a couple bucks.
Hi Sam, thanks for the video! Question, have you lost much mass weight with the flywheels? Could that be added some other way to improve the performance you saw up Gordon's Hill or do you reckon it is what it is? Very interesting tear down, really enjoy this style of content from you!
PS: sorry if you answered that question in the vid or comments and I've missed it! :)
Yes quite a lot Alex - I believe the flywheels are 10g each, so yes that's very substantial! Once everything's finished, it would be worth looking to add some weight back again!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)